iPod Legal question (sorry if this might sound stupid)

crazycat · Dec 22, 2005

I downloaded something like 95% of the 3000 songs i have on my itunes, i normaly download full albums, burn them onto a cd and then rip them back. I then delete the origenal songs and keep the burned ones. Now is this legal? am i doing something i should not?

Lord Blackadder · Dec 22, 2005

I'm almost positive you're OK.

You bought the music, it's yours. I think that technically (acording to the EULA) you are allowed one physical backup copy in addition to the music on the hard drive, and they can be in any format.

Just out of curiosity, why are you deleting the originals?

Jaffa Cake · Dec 22, 2005

Did you pay for the songs you downloaded? If not, and if they weren't offered as legal freebies (such as the Single of the Week on the iTMS), then I'd hazard a guess and say no it isn't legal.

Chundles · Dec 22, 2005

crazycat said:
I downloaded something like 95% of the 3000 songs i have on my itunes, i normaly download full albums, burn them onto a cd and then rip them back. I then delete the origenal songs and keep the burned ones. Now is this legal? am i doing something i should not?

OK, let me try and decipher this post:

You begin by saying you download your music. Have you downloaded these albums from a legal download site (ie, have you paid for them?) if not then you're strike one on the illegal list. Downloading music for free is illegal (except for some songs that are offered for free etc).

Then you burn the albums to a CD - are they in audio format?

Then you rip these back to iTunes? Why? You are copping a massive quality loss in doing this, mp3's are compressed down to about 10% of the song's original file size, you then copy this to a CD and then re-rip them down at another 90% compression? Is this correct? Cause if it is there is something massively flawed in your logic. You'd be much better off keeping the original files.

Basically your whole method is both wrong and (if your songs aren't properly downloaded from iTunes Music Store or similar) totally illegal. Now, in the US I believe it is legal to rip your CD's to back them up etc. This only works though if you own the CD in the first place.

Your best/legal methods of getting music are:

1.
a) download and pay for your music from the iTunes Music Store.
b) burn these tracks to CD so you can use them in the car etc.
c) keep the original tracks as they show that you have legally obtained the music - they have a DRM embedded in them.

2.
a) Rip from real CD's that you have purchased.
b) Burn these tracks to CD but do not distribute them to friends etc - they are simply a back up for you.
c) Keep the original files on your computer.

Lord Blackadder · Dec 22, 2005

Ugh - not awake yet, I posted hastily.

These guys are right - I assumed by "downloaded" that you bought them from iTunes. If you got them from a P2P service like Limewire they are all illegal, even if you own the CD that contains the tracks you downloaded.

If you own the CDs that the music comes from, or if you bought the songs legally from an internet service, then you are legal. But as Chundles said you are probably ending up with inferior sound quality due to all the compression/uncompression.

crazycat · Dec 22, 2005

I am sorry let me make this clear.

I downloaded all my music from iTunes music store, i then burn them to a CD then rip them back. The reson i do this is so that i can transfer music between my computers easly. I formate my PC desktop about once every 3 months so its just works out better for me. The reason why i deleted all the origenal once i bought is so that i dont waste space, the quality is not that bad, i have been listening to my cd's for ages and i cant tell the difference.

I was just wondring if it was legal or not, i never download music for free and i think people who do it should be shot. I just do it with way because it works out

.

JasonElise1983 · Dec 22, 2005

I get what you are saying... You are asking if it is illegal to burn the songs you downloaded from iTunes (which have DRM built in) to a CD, Rip them back to the computer (in an effort to get rid of the DRM?) and then delete the originals. Ok, I don't quite understand your logic on that one, because if you paid for it, then why do you want to get rid of the DRM? Who is it affecting? I'm not even sure that it actually gets rid of all the DRM when you do that. I always heard if you were on a Mac, you could burn it to disk and then rip it off on Windows and that would erase the DRM, but no doing it on the same computer you bought it on. I also agree with Chundles you are killing the sound quality. I don't know about illegal, but it's definately a little on the odd side.

-JE

Chundles · Dec 22, 2005

crazycat said:
I am sorry let me make this clear.

I downloaded all my music from iTunes music store, i then burn them to a CD then rip them back. The reson i do this is so that i can transfer music between my computers easly. I formate my PC desktop about once every 3 months so its just works out better for me. The reason why i deleted all the origenal once i bought is so that i dont waste space, the quality is not that bad, i have been listening to my cd's for ages and i cant tell the difference.

I was just wondring if it was legal or not, i never download music for free and i think people who do it should be shot. I just do it with way because it works out .

It's legal then, if you are buying the downloaded music.

Your method however is very odd indeed. If you have less than 5 computers you can use the music on all of them without worrying about the DRM. It actually allows you to use the music on up to 5 authorised computers. Why don't you just back the songs up in the m4a format on CD or DVD or whatever you use and keep the quality the same? The when you reformat you can just drag the songs back over and you aren't going from m4a to audio and back to mp3 or whatever it is?

jholzner · Dec 22, 2005

JasonElise1983 said:
I get what you are saying... You are asking if it is illegal to burn the songs you downloaded from iTunes (which have DRM built in) to a CD, Rip them back to the computer (in an effort to get rid of the DRM?) and then delete the originals. Ok, I don't quite understand your logic on that one, because if you paid for it, then why do you want to get rid of the DRM? Who is it affecting? I'm not even sure that it actually gets rid of all the DRM when you do that. I always heard if you were on a Mac, you could burn it to disk and then rip it off on Windows and that would erase the DRM, but no doing it on the same computer you bought it on. I also agree with Chundles you are killing the sound quality. I don't know about illegal, but it's definately a little on the odd side.

-JE

It does remove the DRM completely. However, as he said, he does it so it's easier to move around to different computers. I understand that. Although I don't burn and rerip the music I buy from iTunes I do find the whole authorization thing a pain.

crazycat · Dec 22, 2005

jholzner said:
It does remove the DRM completely. However, as he said, he does it so it's easier to move around to different computers. I understand that. Although I don't burn and rerip the music I buy from iTunes I do find the whole authorization thing a pain.

I dont really care about the DRM aspect but i do it so that i can reformate my PC desktop (i use 2) and not worry about it.

DavidLeblond · Dec 22, 2005

crazycat said:
I dont really care about the DRM aspect but i do it so that i can reformate my PC desktop (i use 2) and not worry about it.

As long as you deauthorize the iTunes on the PC computer before you format it, you're golden.

Have you tried streaming the music from your mac on your PC using iTunes sharing?

danny_w · Dec 22, 2005

DavidLeblond said:
As long as you deauthorize the iTunes on the PC computer before you format it, you're golden.

I think that may be the real problem. A lot of people forget to deauthorize before formatting, and then it is a real pain.

reh · Dec 22, 2005

crazycat said:
I dont really care about the DRM aspect but i do it so that i can reformate my PC desktop (i use 2) and not worry about it.

Sounds like you should partition your pc hard drive so you don't wipe out all your personal data every time you reinstall windows.

fartheststar · Dec 22, 2005

reh said:
Sounds like you should partition your pc hard drive so you don't wipe out all your personal data every time you reinstall windows.

Very good point.

You could expand that thought further and network your 2 computers together if they're in the same home, and have one of them be the "music drive" that both can access. If possible, have it on a drive that no OS is on (ie - 2nd HD on the PC or 2nd HD on the mac). Even if it does qualify as using the music on 2 computers you're much better off from an organizing point of view and a sound quality. Then, back up the iTms songs to a DVD for backup only.

- and just using the deauthorize computer option when you're re-installing the OS as DavidLeBlond said.

GimmeSlack12 · Dec 22, 2005

As post #2 said. You bought it, so it is your music to do what you please with it.

decksnap · Dec 22, 2005

GimmeSlack12 said:
As post #2 said. You bought it, so it is your music to do what you please with it.

Unfortunately no. If that was the case, it wouldn't come with any DRM at all. It's illegal to circumvent DRM. Not that I care.. but if you're talking technically, I don't think it is legal.

balamw · Dec 22, 2005

decksnap said:
It's illegal to circumvent DRM.

He's not circumventing DRM in the sense implied by the DMCA. If he was using jhymn your argument might fly, but he's not doing that. He's burning the DRM protected file to CD using the software provided. It's like saying that DVD Player is illegal because it decrypts CSS to play DVDs.

There's no DRM on the burned CD, and nothing I have found in the EULA/TOS says you can't rerip from that CD. Note that, as Chundles said, by doing so he's introducing plenty of compression artifacts and has reduced the quality of the material.

B

Labi · Dec 23, 2005

GimmeSlack12 said:
As post #2 said. You bought it, so it is your music to do what you please with it.

Not quite what you please tho'

Burning and re-ripping method just to backup and transfer music to different computers sounds like a waste of time and sound quality. Why don't you make backups of original files onto cd (not audio) and keep them safe for the next time you reformat the drive.

Blackheart · Dec 23, 2005

Technically, I think this is illegal. However, I don't think anyone will care so long as you aren't giving the music away.

iTunes Music Store Terms of Service said:
9. Purchase of Apple Content

a. Products Requirements. You acknowledge that use of Products may require the use of other hardware and software products (e.g., the ability to make copies of Products on physical media and render performance of Products on authorized digital player devices), and that such hardware and software is your responsibility. Once a Product is purchased and you receive the Product, it is your responsibility not to lose, destroy, or damage the Product, and Apple shall be without liability to you in the event of any loss, destruction, or damage.

b. Use of Products. You acknowledge that Products contain security technology that limits your usage of Products to the following Usage Rules, and you agree to use Products in compliance with such Usage Rules.

Usage Rules

Your use of the Products is conditioned upon your prior acceptance of the terms of this Agreement.

You shall be authorized to use the Products only for personal, noncommercial use.

You shall be authorized to use the Products on five Apple-authorized devices at any time.

You shall be entitled to export, burn (if applicable) or copy Products solely for personal, noncommercial use. You shall not be entitled to burn Video Products.

You shall be authorized to burn an audio playlist up to seven times.

You shall be able to store Products from up to five different Accounts on certain devices, such as an iPod, at a time.

Any burning (if applicable) or exporting capabilities are solely an accommodation to you and shall not constitute a grant or waiver (or other limitation or implication) of any rights of the copyright owners in any audio or video content, sound recording, underlying musical composition, or artwork embodied in any Product.

You agree that you will not attempt to, or encourage or assist any other person to, circumvent or modify any security technology or software that is part of the Service or used to administer the Usage Rules.

The delivery of Products does not transfer to you any commercial or promotional use rights in the Products.

I would consider this a circumvention of the DRM (security technology).

balamw · Dec 23, 2005

Blackheart said:
I would consider this a circumvention of the DRM (security technology).

You shall be entitled to export, burn (if applicable) or copy Products solely for personal, noncommercial use. You shall not be entitled to burn Video Products.

You shall be authorized to burn an audio playlist up to seven times.

Any burning (if applicable) or exporting capabilities are solely an accommodation to you and shall not constitute a grant or waiver (or other limitation or implication) of any rights of the copyright owners in any audio or video content, sound recording, underlying musical composition, or artwork embodied in any Product.

I respectfully disagree. It is an application of the usage rules.

The sections I quote from your quote back up my argument. Once burned, for personal, noncommercial use, it falls back upon plain old boring Copyright law. If it is legal to rip any copyrighted CD (for personal, noncommercial use) it should them be possible to rip a CD you burned with iTunes.

If you give a copy of a burned CD to someone else or upload the file you rip to P2P you are in as much trouble as if you did the same for a physical CD.

B

Loge · Dec 23, 2005

It's clearly in line with the terms and conditions of the iTMS.

iPod Legal question (sorry if this might sound stupid)

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