Apple's X11 for Mac OS X [Archive]

MacRumors

Jan 7, 2003, 07:49 PM

Along with Apple's many announcements, they also quietly released (http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/) X11 Public Beta for Mac OS X:

X11 for Mac OS X offers a complete X Window System implementation for running X11-based applications on Mac OS X. Based on the de facto-standard for X11, the open source XFree86 project, X11 for Mac OS X is compatible, fast and fully integrated with Mac OS X. It includes the full X11R6.6 technology including a window server, libraries and basic utilities such as xterm.

Apple's implementation takes advantage of Quartz to deliver hardware-accelerated graphics, and provides an easy installer.

kenkooler

Jan 7, 2003, 08:02 PM

Nice!!! I'm still surprised by the size of it (3.5Mb), I was expecting over 50...

mmmdreg

Jan 7, 2003, 08:03 PM

ken: i believe it was 41MB or something..where did you get 3?

it doesn't work as well as XDarwin with the blackbox window manager I don't think. In fact, I opened an xterm and it was above the menu bar so I can't move it at all...also, I tried running the GIMP which ran but its pulldown menus were non existent...nor could I move the windows...still needs a bit of work IMO.

peterjhill

Jan 7, 2003, 08:07 PM

It isn't too bad. It is much easier to install than fink. Plus it works. Another fine plus. I will have to see if it works with dual displays.

medea

Jan 7, 2003, 08:12 PM

why is it if someone breaks a "story" first, the thread usually gets closed and then the macrumors admin starts it up again as a new thread? I posted this at 12:47am and its now being posted at 1:49am again and my thread is locked down http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16987

that sucks. why even post info in here anymore.:rolleyes:

RandomMacGuy

Jan 7, 2003, 08:18 PM

This still needs a LOT of work (e.g. The applications menu doesn't work properly even) but if it is open source -- and I suspect it is -- I will be quick to help out.

arn

Jan 7, 2003, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by medea
why is it if someone breaks a "story" first, the thread usually gets closed and then the macrumors admin starts it up again as a new thread? I posted this at 12:47am and its now being posted at 1:49am again and my thread is locked down http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16987

that sucks. why even post info in here anymore.:rolleyes:

sorry man... I usually try to link stories to the first thread around... but sometimes I miss them... so in those cases, I try to consolidate to the main site thread.

arn

noxon

Jan 7, 2003, 08:29 PM

Well, my experience is that it even works very well with the existing XDarwin install. In fact, it made XDarwin (and KDE, which is the window manager i use there) very much faster and responsive than before. X11 as a standalone app is not very good right now, but in addition to an existing XDarwin it's great.

medea

Jan 7, 2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by arn

sorry man... I usually try to link stories to the first thread around... but sometimes I miss them... so in those cases, I try to consolidate to the main site thread.

arn
no I'm sorry for complaining, not usually my nature. it's no biggie really so I don't know what set me off.
Back on track, yeah the software is not complete yet, but it's a fine start and I'm sure a welcome "helping hand" to a lot of developers.

Brandon Sharitt

Jan 7, 2003, 08:45 PM

It integrates a lot better than XDarwin+OroborOSX, plus it has the add benifit of being quartz accelerated. I just hope this doesn't stop people from porting app to native Quartz apps. I wonder why it took them so long. I guess they are trying to arract the real Unix crowd and pick up where Unix is dying.

jaxle

Jan 7, 2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by kenkooler
Nice!!! I'm still surprised by the size of it (3.5Mb), I was expecting over 50...

your probably mistaking it for the SDK

go here for the package which is ~40megs
http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/download/

FattyMembrane

Jan 7, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by mmmdreg
In fact, I opened an xterm and it was above the menu bar so I can't move it at all...
back when i had xdarwin installed, you could set up what programs launched when it started by editing the .xinitrc file which also allowed you to set the screen coordinates. xterm is probably set to launch at 0x0. i'm assuming that apple's version uses a .xinitrc of some kind (do a "locate" in the terminal). as for the other troubles, it's still at .1, it will become much better.

Duff-Man

Jan 7, 2003, 09:41 PM

FelixDerKater

Jan 7, 2003, 09:45 PM

Does it include an uninstaller or is there an uninstall option built into the installer?

LimeiBook86

Jan 7, 2003, 10:38 PM

What does this do and whats it all about...I'm very confused...

Switcher2001

Jan 7, 2003, 10:46 PM

For those of you UNIX CLI geeks, please forgive my ignorance; I'm just a GUI guy from way back. I would love it if I could just install this X11 from a DMG or something and then install OpenOffice the same way. I tried once or twice installing UNIX stuff that was very complicated for me to install, and I just didn't get it. I'll wait until there's an easier way. Is this X11 the easier way I've been waiting for?

SmileyDude

Jan 7, 2003, 10:57 PM

hmmm.. here's hoping that X11 becomes a standard part of the OS... maybe even integrate the X11 protocol into the OS X Window Manger, allowing X apps to connect without having to startup a separate server.

Anyone else think it's kinda ironic that Apple has done a better job of making X11 apps integrate into Aqua than Classic apps? :)

mmmdreg

Jan 7, 2003, 11:01 PM

XDarwin still owns it...btw Blackbox (get it from fink) IS the best window manager IMHO..go try it out...the default XDarwin wm is a piece of crap..

Duff-Man

Jan 7, 2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Switcher2001
For those of you UNIX CLI geeks, please forgive my ignorance; I'm just a GUI guy from way back. I would love it if I could just install this X11 from a DMG or something and then install OpenOffice the same way. I tried once or twice installing UNIX stuff that was very complicated for me to install, and I just didn't get it. I'll wait until there's an easier way. Is this X11 the easier way I've been waiting for? Duff-Man says....you can get the lastest (and last) beta of OpenOffice from one of the mirrors listed here: http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/ooo-osx_downloads.html Oh Yeah!

sparkleytone

Jan 8, 2003, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Switcher2001
For those of you UNIX CLI geeks, please forgive my ignorance; I'm just a GUI guy from way back. I would love it if I could just install this X11 from a DMG or something and then install OpenOffice the same way. I tried once or twice installing UNIX stuff that was very complicated for me to install, and I just didn't get it. I'll wait until there's an easier way. Is this X11 the easier way I've been waiting for?

simply, yes. its a dmg with a pkg in it. its no harder than installing isync.

wfolta

Jan 8, 2003, 01:05 AM

Sounds like you need to modify your .xinitrc file to include 'exec quartz-wm' as the last line to start up the Quartz window manager. That'll attach window bars to your windows and make sure they're moveable and onscreen.

robbieduncan

Jan 8, 2003, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by RandomMacGuy
This still needs a LOT of work (e.g. The applications menu doesn't work properly even) but if it is open source -- and I suspect it is -- I will be quick to help out.

The actual XServer is XFree86 which is the defacto open source X11 implentation. The Applications menu does work, you just need to put the FULL path into the command column (for example /sw/bin/gimp to start gimp on my iBook and /Applications/OpenOffice.org1.0.1/program/swrite to start the OpenOffice word processor).

peterjhill

Jan 8, 2003, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by wfolta
Sounds like you need to modify your .xinitrc file to include 'exec quartz-wm' as the last line to start up the Quartz window manager. That'll attach window bars to your windows and make sure they're moveable and onscreen.

sweet!!!!!! hell yeah that worked for me.

Not only that, but they behave exactly like they should. The resize button works great, you can minimize x windows to the dock, rock on. Multiple screen support is awesome.

Seriously, if you are running xDarwin, give it a try. They are both using XFree86, but the real win is the quartz-wm. Follow the directions above, and you will be very happy.

The next cool feature would be if you could send windows from apple apps to another Mac running the quartz-wm. that would be awesome. There is a differnce between running rdesktop or vnc and just setenv DISPLAY and running an app from another computer in the same UI as the rest of your apps

Azzy

Jan 8, 2003, 09:25 AM

Im new to all this X11 stuff but im trying to learn...

Where can I get a good full featured EMACS to run under X11??

Thanks guys!

ericmw

Jan 8, 2003, 09:49 AM

For those of you who are interested in installing applications that run in xfree86, I would go to fink (http://fink.sourceforge.net) and read up on it. If you do install it you will have to use the terminal in the beginning.

After that you will have a choice of GUI or CLI. If you want to use a GUI then go to finkcommander (http://finkcommander.sourceforge.net/) and download that. You'll be able to control fink without having to use the terminal then.

Only do this if you want to learn though. It isn't so dumbed down yet that anyone can do it but it is the easiest way to do it right now.

Eric

kenkooler

Jan 8, 2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by mmmdreg
ken: i believe it was 41MB or something..where did you get 3?

Hmmm... I think I downloaded the SDK, now 41 seems more like it...

lolajl

Jan 8, 2003, 10:17 AM

Has anyone tried using Open Office Final X11 Beta with Apple's X11? I just downloaded it, tried running it and was informed that I need to have XDarwin. Is this still true? And if so, where do I need to download this app? I can't remember where I got it, having uninstalled it a while ago. :confused:

RIP

Jan 8, 2003, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by SmileyDude
hmmm.. here's hoping that X11 becomes a standard part of the OS... maybe even integrate the X11 protocol into the OS X Window Manger, allowing X apps to connect without having to startup a separate server.

Anyone else think it's kinda ironic that Apple has done a better job of making X11 apps integrate into Aqua than Classic apps? :)

I'm sorry, but I'm a WindowMaker guy myself thank you very much. It's the best WM out there.:D

ericmw

Jan 8, 2003, 10:25 AM

For those of you who want to run OpenOffice, rename the X11 application to XDarwin. Should work then. I haven't tried it out so your mileage may vary.

Also if you don't want to use the Apple supplied window manager you can just edit the .xinitrc file. Last night I ran KDE for awhile til I crashed Xquartz with it. I haven't tried gnome or anything else yet.

eric

cryptochrome

Jan 8, 2003, 11:32 AM

Both X11 and the SDK are "documentation free". I have no idea what exactly the SDK installed or how to use it. I suspect that this may ultimately be the more interesting of the two apps, as it is supposed to make porting X apps to OS X easier. For instance, I would be interested in the GIMP, which oddly has seen very little development effort for porting it.

GPTurismo

Jan 8, 2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by noxon
Well, my experience is that it even works very well with the existing XDarwin install. In fact, it made XDarwin (and KDE, which is the window manager i use there) very much faster and responsive than before. X11 as a standalone app is not very good right now, but in addition to an existing XDarwin it's great.

It completely killed my KDE install and XDarwin installs. Is there anything you had to do?

trusted_content

Jan 8, 2003, 02:13 PM

Assuming you installed KDE with Fink, you need to do a variety of steps so the Fink package tree and KDE recognize X11 as your current XFree86 implementation.

The instructions here (http://fink.sourceforge.net/faq/comp-packages.php#cant-install-xfree) on the fink site should help with removing your current XDarwin...

To summarize the important steps:

REMOVE X11... dont install it until before the last step.

in your terminal:

sudo dpkg --remove --force-depends system-xfree86

sudo rm -rf /Applications/XDarwin.app /usr/X11R6 /etc/X11

Then, install Apple's X11 and the X11 SDK (you need this for all the headers)

Then, in the terminal once again:

fink selfupdate -cvs

fink install system-xfree86

Should work! If you have any problems post em here or mail em to dely@NOSPAMfirehazardstudios.com

(edit out the NOSPAM)

I've been playing with Fink ever since OS X public beta so despite having very little UNIX knowledge, I can at least troubleshoot it with some degree of reliability... sometimes the only solution is

sudo rm -r /sw

:(

ericmw

Jan 8, 2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by trusted_content

I've been playing with Fink ever since OS X public beta so despite having very little UNIX knowledge, I can at least troubleshoot it with some degree of reliability... sometimes the only solution is

sudo rm -r /sw

:(

I know the exact feeling. I've reinstalled fink a couple of times.

I might have to again since fink isn't recognized in the terminal but I can use finkcommander to run everything. Its a strange problem.

I made the mistake of not removing the fink installed version of xfree86. So I ended up recompiling all that and making sure fink recognized the apple version.

I noticed that they recommend installing the libgl placeholders but I can't since there is no version number. I tried emailing the maintainer but there is none. I should just mention it on the users list.

Eric

benjaminpg

Jan 8, 2003, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by cryptochrome
Both X11 and the SDK are "documentation free". I have no idea what exactly the SDK installed or how to use it. I suspect that this may ultimately be the more interesting of the two apps, as it is supposed to make porting X apps to OS X easier. For instance, I would be interested in the GIMP, which oddly has seen very little development effort for porting it.

There is no Aqua port of GIMP, but there are X11 versions ported for Mac OS X. They are probably available on fink, but also here http://www.macgimp.org/.

Apple really did this right. It launches much faster than XDarwin, and then, at least graphics intensive processes are a lot faster. The integration is also nice. Remember this is .1 software, and therefore should not be complete, but it's close.

RandomMacGuy

Jan 8, 2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by mmmdreg
XDarwin still owns it...btw Blackbox (get it from fink) IS the best window manager IMHO..go try it out...the default XDarwin wm is a piece of crap..

Everyone likes different Window Managers. I personally like WindowMaker (for a full desktop) and Oroborus for just windowing (rootless). I wouldn't go so far as to say that something is the best. I recommend that people look at http://www.plig.org/xwinman/ and choose what THEY like.

- RMG

Sauron1440

Jan 8, 2003, 10:53 PM

I had KDE installed via fink (comiling took 24 freakin' hours) on X!! with Xdarwin - but sound didn't work.
I try using Apple's X11 app with my existing .xinitrc - and voila! I have sound - simply wonderful. KDE's window manager works fine, but X11 doesn't allow you to hide the menubar, which is annoying for fullscreen stuff.

BTW - ona a completely unrelated note, UT2003 runs GREAT on a MAC!! Talked to the guy who is doing the port - sounds like it'll be out very sooon...

jgracia

Jan 9, 2003, 12:39 PM

how do you edit the xinitrc file?

ericmw

Jan 9, 2003, 12:43 PM

well you need to use a text editor. For me I just use pico in the terminal. just type "pico ./xinitrc" without the quotes.

Eric

jt23

Jan 9, 2003, 02:59 PM

ok -- so i ZERO experience in UNIX, but I'm interested in OpenOffice.

so I dowload and install the x11 beta. then i download and install the OpenOffice beta.

Now what? Do i start x11 first? or will Open Office automatically startup in x11 if i start it up?

I'd rather have some advice before jumping in a really screwing things up.

thanks, y'all

robbieduncan

Jan 9, 2003, 03:01 PM

Start x11 first, the OO scripts don't seem to start Apples x11 properly for me. An XTerm window should appear. Use this to start OO (for me type /Applications/OpenOffice.org1.0.1/program/swriter)

jgracia

Jan 9, 2003, 03:05 PM

well, this is the beginners way:
If you are under Jaguar install first the X11, the rename it as x Darwin. Later install Open Office. When you run it for first time it asks for your XServer and you choose xDarwin.. That is why you rename X11.
After several minuts its Open Office starts.