12inch and 17inch Powerbooks Released [Archive]

Over Achiever

Jan 8, 2003, 11:09 PM

Don't forget, the 12" don't have L3 cache either, another performance hit.

The new powerbooks are no longer tibooks, but they are now made up unpainted, anodized aluminium.

Another performance hit on the alubooks (yes, that's what i'm calling them dammit) is the graphic cards. Apple took a step back when they went from the ATI Mobility Radeon 9000 to the NVIDIA GeForce4 420/440 Go. Granted the NVIDIA GeForce4 Go are not bad, they are older tech, and they do not preform better than the Radeon 9000. The GeForce4 4200 Go might have been a better choice (although more power hungry).

The performance is aided by the upgrade to DDR2100/2700 (266/333 MHz) SDRAM. Also bluetooth is now built in, and the airport reception is improved by moving the antennae to the screen. As for the 17" model, Firewire800 has been included.

A new feature in the 17" model...the ambient light sensor. When the lights dim, the keyboard automatically lights up thanks to fiber optics. Also the screen brightness is adjusted, easing eye-strain.

Even tho' the 17" is big...its still only an inch thick. It's dimensions are 15.4 x 10.2 x 1.0", 6.8 lbs., which to some may seem too big, but I don't mind. I'm buying the 17" model.

NitroPye

Jan 8, 2003, 11:10 PM

Yes I forgot to include DVI but that was one of the downpoints, then again the day i can afford one is probably the day when we have the G17 processor in a 2" model and a 27" model (obviously not practical or ever going to happen ;) )

But due to needing now .. arg I cant decide 15 or 12!!:confused:

NHMac

Jan 8, 2003, 11:23 PM

Was psyched to see that even the Mini Al can support 1600x1200 on an external monitor... May need to rethink that 17" iMac purchase.

You gotta asumme that the 15"Ti model will be standardized to the Al form factor/maufacturing process in the next 6 months. Wonder if they will trickle down the keyboard technology? Found in Big Al? Does not sound unreasonable.

Sun Baked

Jan 8, 2003, 11:24 PM

Looks like Internet Explorer is still the default browser right now.

Putting QuickBooks on the HD of a pro machine is a nice touch.

Mac OS X, QuickTime, iCal, iChat, iDVD, iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, DVD Player, Mac OS X Mail, Microsoft Internet Explorer, EarthLink (includes 30 days of free service), Acrobat Reader, Art Directors Toolkit, FAXstf, FileMaker Pro Trial, GraphicConverter, Microsoft Office v. X Test Drive, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, QuickBooks for Mac New User Edition, Developer Tools, Apple Hardware Test

Xapplimatic

Jan 8, 2003, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by MacKid

First of all, not many devices fully utilize the bandwidth of FireWire 800, and then again, you must remember that it's $1,799. It's supposed to be the semi-pro G4. Add a 64mb card and a FW 800 port and you might as well get a 17".

Not all FireWire 400 devices fully utilize the bandwidth even. For me, it's a non concern. so is the lack of DVI.. My first concern in a portable is performance as a portable.. not a desktop replacement.. I'm buying the 12 " iBook as soon as it's shipping. It's sexy, it's much faster than any iBook in ever area (especially buss-speed!), but has the same cuddly profile as the iBook. I'm really happy. Thanks Apple!

(I can't believe they didn't trumpet the 2-3 clockspeed increse in buss perfomance with the first DDR PowerBooks! Hmm.. suspicious.. Perhaps this is only a speed bump for the buss, maybe the next version has IBM 970 PPCs with an 800 MHz fully utilized Hyper Transport buss? Maybe that's why they held off on updating the 15 "ers)

iSmell

Jan 8, 2003, 11:35 PM

It seems to me like the TiBook should be updated soon just to simplify the line up. I think the 17 inch book is too big for a lot of people and I know the G4 iBook (am I the only one that sees it?) is too small for me personally because the iBook was too small for me. The 15 incher is the sweet spot in the line up as far as size, but you have to give up the nifty stuff like the glowing keyboard, aluminum case, airport extreme, ddr etc... It just doesn't make sense.

One other thing: Is it just me, or is the TiBook's screen not quite as bright and nice as the iBook's and the iMac's screens? The 17" iMac has a beautiful screen, but I wonder if they sacrificed anything squeezing it into the AlBook.

Any word on whether these things have shown up in the retail stores yet or when they're expected to? I'm going to be near a few stores over the next few days and would love to check these puppies out. Not that I'm going to buy any of them.
Ever.

I'm sad now.

At least there are still monkeys....

kmac

Jan 8, 2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by NitroPye

But due to needing now .. arg I cant decide 15 or 12!!:confused:

Yes, same here. I was ready to buy the 15" and now the new Albooks comes out but 12" has no DVI and 17" is little too big.

I would absolutely love the updated 15" with Al, keyboard backlighting, bluetooth, and new port arrangements (usb on the right side for mouse).

What do I do!?!

rjstanford

Jan 9, 2003, 12:07 AM

What do I do!?!

Wait.

Melior1

Jan 9, 2003, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by AndrewMT
Is anyone else dissapointed that the 12.1" G4 powerbook doesn't include 64mb vram or firewire 800? How much more room would an extra 32mb of memory take up in the notebook? If firewire 800 is going to be the new fast i/o standard, why isn't it included in this notebook?

At first, yes, but upon closer inspection, I have to say the 12" Powerbook is worth a long look. Sure, I'd like the backlit keyboard, 64MB Vram, etc. that the 17" has (including all 17" of screen), but when I compare the iBook and 12"Powerbook specs side by side, I like what I see. To summarize, the Powerbook's 32Mb Vram is DDR, it has a Superdrive available, built in bluetooth, Airport extreme capabilities, a (faster) G4 chip, a third (midrange) speaker, support for dual monitor, DDR ram, supports higher resolution. That's a lot of added features. Maybe those don't add up to the higher pricetag for serious Pro Users. I'm a ProSumer. I've taken a 15" laptop on an airplane and found it too big for the tray and too hot for my lap - P3). I like what the 12" Powerbook can do, and I'm willing to spend the money on it because: I can't afford a 17", it will handle Prosumer video editing better than the iBook, it is future-proof (at least for a while), I'm not likely to buy a Firewire800 device anytime soon since I've never bought a Firewire 400 device for my 3+yr old Powermac, and as for the no DVI, well, I was planning to buy a 17" flatpanel VGA monitor for the iBook anyway. At least with this I can go dual monitor to the projector I use weekly.

Sorry for the rant. For me this is the Apple I want/can afford now, and I'd be darn proud to open it up anywhere.

mcrain

Jan 9, 2003, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by kmac

Yes, same here. I was ready to buy the 15" and now the new Albooks comes out but 12" has no DVI and 17" is little too big.

I would absolutely love the updated 15" with Al, keyboard backlighting, bluetooth, and new port arrangements (usb on the right side for mouse).

What do I do!?!

Buy my 15 so I can get a 17

julzmon

Jan 9, 2003, 12:38 AM

I have the first 400mgz Ti PB. And I think its great and all but I am not happy with the LCD display. The color varies so much from top to bottom. I can never get the right colors and it's always a surprise to me how much better things look when I get on my Desktop with a CRT monitor.
I just don't think that LCD's are ready for designing.
I make Flash sites and Graphic work.

Julz

dguisinger

Jan 9, 2003, 01:05 AM

Well, I know no one wants to hear my projections for MWNY ..... but here it goes:

Software:
iCal and iSync Upgrades
Apple branded word processor and spreadsheet, each at $99
(Watch the registering of trademarks)
word processor, spreadsheet, and Keynote(tm) are bundled for somewhere between $200 and $250.
OS X 10.3 is both 32 and 64 bit
iChat adds ICQ and MSN support.

Hardware:
With Apple's splits between their laptop lines, Apple may or may not release new notebooks all at once. My guess is the 17" PowerBook will be upgraded to a 1.4GHz IBM 970 chip, which is known to have lower power consumtion than the G4.

Apple will release new 970 based towers. Prices will come down, as only a single CPU will be needed and IBM has better production (and more uses) for the chip than Motorola.

Top iMac may see the jump to the same lower-power 1.4GHz 970 chip...reducing the heat in the iMac and leaving a performance gap between consumer and pro.

Expect FireWire 800 to filter down to the iMacs, as it probably will not be in the february update as FW800 is more of a pro technology.

Apple will also adopt Serial ATA over IDE, for 150MB/sec transfers.

Anyways, thats my thoughts. I could easily be wrong, but hoping I'm right.

lmalave

Jan 9, 2003, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by dguisinger

With Apple's splits between their laptop lines, Apple may or may not release new notebooks all at once. My guess is the 17" PowerBook will be upgraded to a 1.4GHz IBM 970 chip, which is known to have lower power consumtion than the G4.

Apple will release new 970 based towers. Prices will come down, as only a single CPU will be needed and IBM has better production (and more uses) for the chip than Motorola.

Top iMac may see the jump to the same lower-power 1.4GHz 970 chip...reducing the heat in the iMac and leaving a performance gap between consumer and pro.

Too soon I think for the 970. G4s are supposed to go up to 1.8GHz by that time, though, so maybe we'll see 1.4GHz and higher G4s. IBM has delivered early before, though, so who knows?

MUrhino

Jan 9, 2003, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by iSmell

Is it just me, or is the TiBook's screen not quite as bright and nice as the iBook's and the iMac's screens? The 17" iMac has a beautiful screen, but I wonder if they sacrificed anything squeezing it into the AlBook.

I think you're right on target here. I was comparing an iBook to a TiBook at my Bookstore and I did notice a difference between the two. The iBook was brighter, but not by much. The resolutions both looked equal though. One reason for the brightness is most likely the space behind the screen. The iBook has more space for the inner-components of the actual screen as opposed to the TiBook. With the new line being even thinner I think we can expect it to be about the same as the old TiBooks.

G4scott

Jan 9, 2003, 01:37 AM

I like the idea of the midrange enhancing speaker on the 12" PowerBook G4, but looking at the pictures, I'm wondering, where are the normal speakers? Are they were the iBook's speakers are, or are they on the back panel of the laptop, kinda reflecting the sound off the bottom of the screen panel? I saw some holes looking like those might be them, but I wasn't too sure. I just can't wait to get my hands on one...

I'm looking to replace my 12" iBook (600mhz, combo) with a 12" PowerBook, but I'm going to wait a while... Hopefully I'll know more about these wonderful machines.

Mr Kyle

Jan 9, 2003, 01:40 AM

anyone else notice that the 17 inch has pc 2700 as oppose to the pc 2100 that apple has been using :D

jaguarx

Jan 9, 2003, 01:44 AM

Yup, i can't wait to get my hands on one of those 17" =)
Pity about 7-10 week wait!!!!!!

dguisinger

Jan 9, 2003, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by lmalave

Too soon I think for the 970. G4s are supposed to go up to 1.8GHz by that time, though, so maybe we'll see 1.4GHz and higher G4s. IBM has delivered early before, though, so who knows?

I'm not so sure about that. IBM has revised saying early Q3...which is right in time for MWNY announcement, shipping within a months time, which is standard for Apple.

However, after looking at SPECint and SPECfp marks and IBM's 970 pdf, I will have to revise my previous post and say they will still be dual. I took some time to do some calculations for processor efficency with IBM's and Intel's benchmarks.

970 @ 1.8GHz
SPECint2000 - 937
SPECfp2000 - 1051

P4-HT @ 3.06GHz
SPECint2000 - 1099
SPECfp2000 - 1077

SPECxxx2000 rating per clock cycle
970 @ 1.8GHz P4 @ 3.06GHz
int 0.52 0.36
fp 0.58 0.35

The efficiency of the P4 even with HyperThreading really sucks compared to the 970. Look at the FP gap. I would think to 95% of the people here, the integer operations at this speed are completely worthless....most operations for scientific or compression or rendering are all floating point now days, its funny Intel still seems to favor their ALU over the FPU.

Obviously though, we have a problem. Intel will be at 3.5GHz atleast by the time the 970 comes out....not only is that a marketing delema, but the added performance will drag the 970 through the mud if used as a single processor, so dual systems will probably be standard across all Pro towers. Assuming the efficiency stays the same, the P4 @ 3.5GHz would be 1260int/1225fp. However that means you only need 1 1/3 970's to catch up in performance.......meaning a dual machine will smoke a P4.

If IBM surprises everyone and launches with a 2.0GHz while Intel is at 3.5...lets see what there numbers would be: 1040int/1160fp. To match a 3.5GHz P4 processor in theoretical performance, a single 970 would have to run at 2.43 GHz. Unfortunately I do not see that happening at launch........which means we will remain behind.

As long as we remain behind in speed, price will not come down, as dual processors will be required to outpreform the x86 equipment.

Gelfin

Jan 9, 2003, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Mr Kyle
anyone else notice that the 17 inch has pc 2700 as oppose to the pc 2100 that apple has been using :D

Well, yeah, of course. PC2100 is the "right" speed for DDR266, and PC2700 is the "right" speed for DDR333.

I'm finally taking the day off to go to MWSF tomorrow, with my primary goal being to play with a 17". I was thinking maybe it was too big, but then a friend pointed out that I walk around with sketch pads that size all the time. I think I'm going to wind up needing one, but I won't know for sure until I get some hands-on time with it. It's a fantastic solution. Means I get a better desktop machine than the 17" iMac I was considering, and a MAJOR upgrade to my existing PB667. I was afraid Steve was going to leave me on the horns of a dilemma this year, but instead I think he greatly simplified my next Mac purchase decision.

pnz999

Jan 9, 2003, 03:09 AM

Anyone actually seen the new PB in person.

Thats it get Hot? maybe compare to the 15" Ti or the iBook?

t^3

Jan 9, 2003, 03:16 AM

Anybody know if these PB's have the new G4 (7457) that actually takes advantage of the DDR RAM, unlike the current PowerMacs?

During my research, I found a site that has some closeups of both new models, including some with Apple System Profiler on:

http://www.macitynet.it/immagini/visitaconnoi/mwsf2003/powerbook17/
http://www.macitynet.it/immagini/visitaconnoi/mwsf2003/powerbook12/

Interestingly, the 17" model is running a build of 10.2.4 (6J11), while the 12" runs a build of 10.2.3 (6H28).

gooddog

Jan 9, 2003, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by MUrhino

I think you're right on target here. I was comparing an iBook to a TiBook at my Bookstore and I did notice a difference between the two. The iBook was brighter, but not by much. The resolutions both looked equal though. One reason for the brightness is most likely the space behind the screen. The iBook has more space for the inner-components of the actual screen as opposed to the TiBook. With the new line being even thinner I think we can expect it to be about the same as the old TiBooks.

********************************

You're right ---

But SJ said as much about the 17" PowerBook in his Keynote:

the same LCD was given a "slimmer" backlight
--- I figured it would be slimmer in power as well to not kill the batt too soon.

----

At first I was excited about the Mini Al --- then
I remembered that the 12" iBook is more ruggedized than the Powerooks.

And, since the 800 MHz G3 iBook is more than fast enough for anything I might do at the school where I teach --- I did an unexpected thing _ bought the 800 iBook instead.

Now I have a 15" 800MHz/1Gig/ iMac for
LightWave 3D / FCP / Photoshop etc. work

and the little iBook 800 with 384 MB RAM for
teacher stuff. My school is so backward I won't be allowed to use any wireless for the foreseeable future anyway.

===========================

I wonder what the target market will be for the
Mini Al ???????

Seems 2 me that,

SMALLNESS > HIGH MOBILITY > NEEDS TO BE RUGGED (it isn't?) ALSO - NEEDS ADC PORT EVEN MORE SO FOR AT-HOME 23" JOY

AND CONVERSELY,

G4 POWER > VIDEO WORK (but ...tiny screen??? )

I hope it doesn't go the way of the Cube !!!

Any ideas on this ?????

---gooddog

NitroPye

Jan 9, 2003, 09:58 AM

I would think with the new base material and more compact design the 12" AlBooks would be more ruggadized then the 15" TiBooks I dont know about the comparison between the 12" ibook and the 12" AlBooks though

Dave K

Jan 9, 2003, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by AndrewMT
Is anyone else dissapointed that the 12.1" G4 powerbook doesn't include 64mb vram or firewire 800? How much more room would an extra 32mb of memory take up in the notebook?

A quick look at the Sony, IBM, and Toshiba product reveals that it appears to be the only machine in it's market segment using a full bore graphics chipset. What I can see of the others shows that they are all using either integrated shared memory or tiny 8mb ATI Rage quality solutions.

Read into that whatever you want.

Another thing to note is that all of the 12.1 solutions I've seen above, except the IBM, max out at 512 MB of system memory. But, while the IBM solutions will take up to 1 GB and are ~1 lb lighter, they also start at the same price as the SuperDrive equiped 12.1 without an optical drive to speak of and half the memory/hard disk space...

Which makes the 12.1 SuperDrive extremely competitive in terms of price/features in it's market segment IMO, given that only Sony has models that list cheaper and they only offer an external device for DVD burning which brings the total MSRP of the device up above $2k...

psxndc

Jan 9, 2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by gooddog
I wonder what the target market will be for the
Mini Al ???????

Easy: Me. Someone that is, like someone else mentioned, a "ProSumer". I'm a software engineer and I need to have a lot of things running at the same time (especially if I'm doing .NET work in Virtual PC). I need the power of a G4 in my laptop, but....

I love my iBook 700. I love the size (12" isn't bad screen-wise when you use Virtual Desktop), the heft, just about everything. But it _is_ a little slow. I'd _love_ it if I had a G4 iBook especially if it had a SuperDrive.

I am disappointed that the 12" doesn't have the same ports as the 17", but realistically, I haven't used my existing Firewire port at all (I'm still waiting on Audio In in the iPod, Apple) so I don't really need FW800 or the gigbit ethernet. When I'm ready to upgrade in a year or two hopefully the mini Als will have 64MB vram, but other than that, it's pretty darn perfect for existing iBookers that want more power for only $2k.

-p

DHagan4755

Jan 9, 2003, 10:54 AM

Perhaps the speakers are under the keyboard? I don't see them in the photos either :confused:

ryan

Jan 9, 2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by NHMac
...
You gotta asumme that the 15"Ti model will be standardized to the Al form factor/maufacturing process in the next 6 months. Wonder if they will trickle down the keyboard technology? Found in Big Al? Does not sound unreasonable.
I could care less about the lighted keyboard but the faster bus, AE, DDR and Bluetooth would be nice additions to the TiPB. I was all ready to buy a 1GHz TiPB but I thought I would hold off until after Macworld, "just in case" and now I'm glad I did.

Dave K

Jan 9, 2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by DHagan4755
Perhaps the speakers are under the keyboard? I don't see them in the photos either :confused:

Accorinding to the editors over at MacWorld who've seen them, the speakers are in the slots towards the back and are designed to reflect the sound forward off the LCD...

iShater

Jan 9, 2003, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by dguisinger

However, after looking at SPECint and SPECfp marks and IBM's 970 pdf, I will have to revise my previous post and say they will still be dual. I took some time to do some calculations for processor efficency with IBM's and Intel's benchmarks.

I am not sure they will really need duals across the board. The entry level and mid range PMs will probably stay as single processor machines, they might be slightly behind in performance, but the added cost of making them dual will be keep them expensive. Now, for the top of the line machine, they can go dual, charge a premium, have a huge profit margin, and smoke the P4 machines. :D

However, Apple needs to prod ATI and nVidia to start releasing some of their PRO graphic cards for the mac. All these machines that we see here are the consumer ones, I am sure there is a reason those companies make professional graphics cards! :rolleyes:

dorleac

Jan 9, 2003, 12:06 PM

Questions about new PB17/12 design

Okay, somehow I knew this was coming. Everyone told me in November that there wouldn't be another upgrade for a long time, but I held out.

Now I am wondering...

I remember reading speculation in the past about two issues/features that might be resolved/introduced in a Powerbook redesign. Since we have the new AlumiBook, perhaps this stuff is here or coming soon...

(Please forgive me if I either misinterpreted or misunderstood the rumors or if these issues were already resolved. I don't currently own a Powerbook, but have been waiting patiently for the right moment to buy.)

1) Employment of a Mac patent on a new heat-dispersement design for laptops with different placement of heat sinks, different metals used internally, etc. to aid in better cooling of the machine.

2) Variable bus timing where the machine would use power according to how many apps, what screen brightness settings were being used, etc. thereby saving battery life.

Anyone know if these things were included in the design of the new PB(s) or if they're still coming?

Please keep me posted if you hear anything.
Thanks.

Dave K

Jan 9, 2003, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by iShater

However, Apple needs to prod ATI and nVidia to start releasing some of their PRO graphic cards for the mac. All these machines that we see here are the consumer ones, I am sure there is a reason those companies make professional graphics cards! :rolleyes:

The main problem here is that the major difference between the pro and consumer cards is that the drivers for those cards are certified for each software package (Maya, Lightwave, etc), they run and are tuned for visual quality and accuracy over performance.

Getting those certifications and doing that tweaking costs lots of money and that's why they cost a fortune compared to other cards. This makes whether or not these cards get ported to the Mac much more of a case of Mac users showing demand to use them with those products than anything Apple can do.

I do seem to recall 3DLabs making whispers in this direction at one point though...

Huked on Fonick

Jan 9, 2003, 12:44 PM

I just ordered a new 12 inch ibook, i was orignally going to get the 12 inch alubook but my ibook with 640 ram, airport card, printer, 3 year warenty cost me 1680.

I compared what i god and prices and ibook is alot better deal.

Value over whats in IBOOK

Airport Extreme- Have airport at my School just spent a fortune putting in 802.11a/b network they are not gona upgrade. Value: -25 (difference of Price between airport and airport extreme)

Bluetooth this is a Plus but i could all ways get an adapter and i dont have anything bluebooth my phone is a Motorola t720i its not bluetooth and my printer is USB i would put its value at $50 price of adapter

G4---No L3 Ibook has twice the size of L2. Value maybe 10.... Most of my apps arnt Altivec enhanced except OS X and Photoshop.... and there allready fast enough on my 600ibook with 640 ram

DDR ram: Its Fake FSB is still 133 and lack of L3 kinda of sets its value. Value 50 bucks

60 Gig Hard Drive Now thats nice but its not Rubber sock Mounted like the Ibooks, it cost 47 more than the regular 40 gig, and its a 2.5 inch drive Value: 80 Bucks.

Video Card: True is has DDR Ram but there both 32 megs and on a AGP2x Bus it wont make much difference not to mention i think the 7500 is a better chipset it lots of ways. Value: 50 Bucks

Case: Its Pretty Value 10 Bucks

Duel Monitor Suppot: You can Hack Ibook to do this. Value O

.3 pounds lighter- The extra weight of the ibook is going to break my back......... maybe apple needs to invest in a new scale.. Value 0

Slight smaller Speca all under .5 of an inch.. Value-0 icant even find a case small enough for my ibook and the smaller size is that big of a deal. Value 0

Line in... Would Never Use it cant u get the same things in through a usb addapter or USB.- Value 10 bucks

Shipping 2-3+ weeks but 3-5 days transit time.Value -50

Total Extra Value $185

Ibook G3 800 512 L2 cache 640 megs of ram, Airport, Printer, 30 gig Hard Drive, 3 year warinty- Price 1684 (throug Macmall Standard Ground Shipping)

Alubook G4 867 256 L2 cache 640 megs or ram, Airport Extreme, 60 gig Hard Drive, Printer, 3 year Warinty- Price $2,414.00 +245(tax) = 2659 (through Apple EDU Store Standard Ground Shipping)

Difference 2659-1684=975!!! $975.. you could by a CD-ROM only ibook for that 2 computers for the price of one!

Total extra value i see not more than $250 but somehwre around $175 what it cost extra=975!! thats a difference of $690 over what i would pay and what it cost.!! NO WAY!

I could by like a new snowboard and Boots and a ipod and and and for that!!

IF it had L3 i would probably Get it....:D

-pat:D

Edit Changed format made post shorter

G4scott

Jan 9, 2003, 12:47 PM

Does anybody know what they keys on the keyboard are made out of? Are they plastic or what? Jobs said that the keyboard was their most durable to date.

Oooh, I can't wait to get my hands on one...

pnz999

Jan 9, 2003, 12:49 PM

Jobs said: This is the year of the notebook for Apple!

Do you think Apple will revamp all of its notebooks.. iBooks to PB!

User X

Jan 9, 2003, 01:25 PM

Has anyone checked out the education price for these things.....$300 off the entire line!!!!! Now that is a sweet deal. I wonder if I can convince the wife that this is a necessity?

Huked on Fonick

Jan 9, 2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by User X
Has anyone checked out the education price for these things.....$300 off the entire line!!!!! Now that is a sweet deal. I wonder if I can convince the wife that this is a necessity?

Uh where you getting that??

12 inch 100 off
12 inch with superdrive 110 off
15 inch combo 100 off
15 inch super drive 150 off
17 inch 150 off... i dont see 300 there???

ADC?? but thats trickey and u only get 1 purchace a lifetime and u gona prove that your takeing a development corse....??

ADC PRICES

12 inch 360 off
12 inch with superdrive 400 off
15 inch combo 460 off
15 inch super drive 560 off
17 inch 660 off...

Humm thats more than 300?? are u talking about ADC prices??? cuz thats a little more than the education store and i think apple checks up on ADC orders oh yea add 100 to those orders cuz u gota by the ADC Plan- student ADC=99 dollars...

Edit- Added ADC Prices

NitroPye

Jan 9, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Huked on Fonick
I just ordered a new 12 inch ibook, i was orignally going to get the 12 inch alubook but my ibook with 640 ram, airport card, printer, 3 year warenty cost me 1680.

I compared what i god and prices and ibook is alot better deal.

Value over whats in IBOOK

Airport Extreme- Have airport at my School just spent a fortune putting in 802.11a/b network they are not gona upgrade. Value: -25 (difference of Price between airport and airport extreme)

Bluetooth this is a Plus but i could all ways get an adapter and i dont have anything bluebooth my phone is a Motorola t720i its not bluetooth and my printer is USB i would put its value at $50 price of adapter

G4---No L3 Ibook has twice the size of L2. Value maybe 10.... Most of my apps arnt Altivec enhanced except OS X and Photoshop.... and there allready fast enough on my 600ibook with 640 ram

DDR ram: Its Fake FSB is still 133 and lack of L3 kinda of sets its value. Value 50 bucks

60 Gig Hard Drive Now thats nice but its not Rubber sock Mounted like the Ibooks, it cost 47 more than the regular 40 gig, and its a 2.5 inch drive Value: 80 Bucks.

Video Card: True is has DDR Ram but there both 32 megs and on a AGP2x Bus it wont make much difference not to mention i think the 7500 is a better chipset it lots of ways. Value: 50 Bucks

Case: Its Pretty Value 10 Bucks

Duel Monitor Suppot: You can Hack Ibook to do this. Value O

.3 pounds lighter- The extra weight of the ibook is going to break my back......... maybe apple needs to invest in a new scale.. Value 0

Slight smaller Speca all under .5 of an inch.. Value-0 icant even find a case small enough for my ibook and the smaller size is that big of a deal. Value 0

Line in... Would Never Use it cant u get the same things in through a usb addapter or USB.- Value 10 bucks

Shipping 2-3+ weeks but 3-5 days transit time.Value -50

Total Extra Value $185

Ibook G3 800 512 L2 cache 640 megs of ram, Airport, Printer, 30 gig Hard Drive, 3 year warinty- Price 1684 (throug Macmall Standard Ground Shipping)

Alubook G4 867 256 L2 cache 640 megs or ram, Airport Extreme, 60 gig Hard Drive, Printer, 3 year Warinty- Price $2,414.00 +245(tax) = 2659 (through Apple EDU Store Standard Ground Shipping)

Difference 2659-1684=975!!! $975.. you could by a CD-ROM only ibook for that 2 computers for the price of one!

Total extra value i see not more than $250 but somehwre around $175 what it cost extra=975!! thats a difference of $690 over what i would pay and what it cost.!! NO WAY!

I could by like a new snowboard and Boots and a ipod and and and for that!!

IF it had L3 i would probably Get it....:D

-pat:D

Edit Changed format made post shorter

Well maybe you got a better deal for what you use it for but for the bang for the buck its indisputable the AlBook is a better deal. And the price you quoted for the Albook is out of wack assuming you got the printer at macmall for free with the ibook. Plus their is no tax online im pretty sure unless your in a specific state (correct me if I am wrong)

blueBomber

Jan 9, 2003, 03:59 PM

I'm still betting that "prosumer" like me who gets involved in moderate to heavy photoshop work will benefit from the g4 rather than the g3 of the ibook, even with half of the L2 cache, it's still a g4

blueBomber

Jan 9, 2003, 03:59 PM

at least thats what I'm hoping, considering I passed on the ibook for this thing

For the little extras that I got for going with the new 12" powerbook, ie:

- 60 gig hd
-faster cdrw (didn't get the super)
-integrated bluetooth (no use yet, but it's there)
-airport extreme upgradability
-far more durable enclosure
-faster (yes it is) video
-here's the biggie, multi-monitor spanning using the vga adapter.
-it only cost $300 dollars more for, what seems to me, a superior featured product

considering this is my first mac coming over from windows, this seemed like the best deal for me. It's a very powerful portable, yet can still function as a very fast desktop at home. Considering I'm coming from a 1600+ athlon xp with 384 megs of ram, the ibook just seemed to slow for my first foray into the world of macs. From everything I've read, if you have the option of using a G4 to run osX, do it, the G3 is usually just too slow for alot of things.

lmalave

Jan 9, 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by NitroPye

Well maybe you got a better deal for what you use it for but for the bang for the buck its indisputable the AlBook is a better deal. And the price you quoted for the Albook is out of wack assuming you got the printer at macmall for free with the ibook. Plus their is no tax online im pretty sure unless your in a specific state (correct me if I am wrong)

How is the AluBook more "bang for the buck". Other than the built-in Bluetooth I don't really see getting more value from an AluBook than what I currently have. I agree that the $900 price difference sounds waaaaay out of whack, though - the price difference is essentially the $500 difference in base price. So what are you getting for that $500?

- G4 vs. G3: OK granted this is important if you really want to do Photoshop on your 12.1" screen, but if you're like me and most people, you really don't benefit that much from Altivec.

- GeForce4 vs ATI Radeon 7500: from what I've read the Radeon may even be faster

- 10GB more drive space: Ok this is nice, but how much is it worth?

- Built-in Bluetooth: OK this is very cool

- Airport Extreme ready: won't make a difference for most people

- DDR RAM: This I think is the second best enhancement after Bluetooth, but again it just wouldn't be worth $500 more to me.

In fact even $1300 was a lot for me since I really didn't need a CD-RW. I would've rather had the $50 DVD upgrade of the low-end iBook, if that was available.

iBook still rules!

blueBomber

Jan 9, 2003, 04:38 PM

your right the ibook rules, but the albook is meant to be the next evolutionary step. Like I said, this is my first mac, I plan to use my new 12" albook to edit things in imovie, use photoshop, play games, surf the net, burn cds. All of these things use lots of hard drive space, thats why I opted for the 60gig, where the ibook tops out 40. I just think that the 12" albook is good for people like me who need more power than the ibook can provide. I don't look at the 12" albook as a pro-user portable, but a "prosumer"portable.

blueBomber

Jan 9, 2003, 04:48 PM

I also got to use my student discount to get it (approx $100 dollars off), so now I have less to figure out how to pay for :rolleyes:

Huked on Fonick

Jan 9, 2003, 04:51 PM

Apple Store has tax becuase they have stores to most states and they are represented in each state..... I dident get the printer for free i got the Lexmark Z55? how doe shte alubook give u more bang for the buck it would if it had a L3 and a better graphics card..... but without that i dont think its worth a 1000 extra...... All a G4 is a pretty much a G3 with AltiVec and the G3 in the Ibook are nice, there .13 microns comparied to the G4 which is .18 they use very little power run cool and support DDR (not fake DDR like the G4s but true DDR) but apple doesent utalize this...... but then again the chip is made by microsoft i have to admit the bigger hard drive would be nice but other than that thery are the same computer, one has altivec the other one doesent, one has fake DDR the other one doesent and i think the gains made by altivec will be offset by the cripaling 256k of L2 and no L3........oh yea different case

blueBomber

Jan 9, 2003, 05:00 PM

this is very similar to the P4 vs. Celeron issue on the PC side of things. Something tells me that Apple wouldn't have bothered making the 12"albook if it's slower than the less expensive ibook, Apple is too smart for that, the backlash from customers would be horrible for them, when they are trying to get every customer they can right now

lmalave

Jan 9, 2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by blueBomber
your right the ibook rules, but the albook is meant to be the next evolutionary step. Like I said, this is my first mac, I plan to use my new 12" albook to edit things in imovie, use photoshop, play games, surf the net, burn cds. All of these things use lots of hard drive space, thats why I opted for the 60gig, where the ibook tops out 40. I just think that the 12" albook is good for people like me who need more power than the ibook can provide. I don't look at the 12" albook as a pro-user portable, but a "prosumer"portable.

Well hopefully someday I'll have the financial wherewithal to join the "prosumer" ranks.

For now I'm a "poorsumer" :p

Huked on Fonick

Jan 9, 2003, 05:00 PM

L3 CACHE AND L2 CACHE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT HERE!!! People Notice how the new DDR 1ghz powermacs arnt that much better than the last revision even thow they got DDR becuase they half 1/2 the L3 and this thing has NONE that makes it essencally a L3 and altivec is great if the program is altivec enhanced IE OS X PhtotShop and thats about it!!!! Its not some miracle thing most of it is hype the G5 wasent even supposed to have Altivec(the motorola one)

so ur paying 500 extra base prise for 10 gig bigger hard drive bring that up to 550.
Bluetooth-go by adapter thats half the size of a stick of gum www.linksys.com if its that important to you... Airport Extreme...USELESS
Fake DRR... Allright but doesent do much with out the L3 and fsb still being 133 and w WORSE video Card..........I dont know what apple was thinking... now the 17inch that machine should FLY!!! anyone here remember how cripled the RevB powerbooks where without the L3 my friend has one and my ibook was faster than it in alot of things (given i had more ram) but i payed less than him... hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and the new G3 chips are alot better than the ones in my comp.......i dont see anything thats worth 500????

ahh that 100 dollars that apple takes off isent really worth much its worth less than the tax so in most cases its cheep to by it from macmall or clubmac or general cybernetics or somewhere....but wait they dont ahve them in yet and wont for a while......

Tariq

Jan 9, 2003, 05:40 PM

Bare Feats was able to sneak some comparative Benchmarks at Macworld of the new 12" and 17" Books. YOu will notice that, indeed, the little 12" PB does not do that well and, in some areas is beat out by the iBook. Guess that L3 Cache(or lack of) and slower graphics chip does matter after all. Here is the link:

http://www.barefeats.com/pb17.html

Tariq

nighthawk

Jan 9, 2003, 06:22 PM

First of all, the Radeon 7500 graphics card is faster than the GeForce4 Go 420 and even the GeForce4 Go 440 according to www.tomshardware.com (http://www.tomshardware.com). But there are two main differences between the iBook and the 12" Powerbook: 32mb DDR memory in the Powerbook and 4x AGP instead of 2x. Presumably, this would be why the 12" performed better on the OpenGL test, but would not explain why it didn't perform better on the Quartz Extreme test. However, these are only benchmarks and do not have a lot to do with day-to-day use of the computers.

Jaguar is using the Altivec instructions in many parts of the OS to increase functionality and overall snappiness of the computer. Altivec is becoming more important, not less-important in the future of Apple computers and the OS. And the G5 WAS suppose to have the Altivec, but Motorola was having problems with it... the clockspeeds and overall performace of the G5 was fine... it was crashes and unstability of the Altivec that was delaying progress on that chip. Most likely, it is the same problem that Motorola has with the G4 and the clock speeds. Although IBM has said that the 970 has "compatible" instruction sets as the Altivec, they are by no means saying that it is identical to Motorolas. In fact, IBM could be downclocking or having a separate chip to handle the Altivec instructions and not letting it limit the speed and production of the 970 core. It might be that the 900mhz bus would be an internal connection between these two elements... there are too many unknowns.

However, to talk about the value of the AiBook compared to the iBook... http://macspeedzone.com has benchmarks comparing the 800mhz iBook and the Powerbook 15" 867. Summing all of the results together, there is 137.4% increase in overall performance between these two machines... some of it has to do with bus and other features, but the 12" is almost identical in every way to the 15" except for the L3 cache and the video card. There is an 108.4% increase in speed just in pure mhz alone not counting any other factors. I would estimate that the 12" Powerbook would rank approximately 122.9% -- an average between the two.

lmalave was not taking into account the difference in the processor speed... just assuming that they were equal. They are not. Even though the iBook has the 512k cache instead of the 256k cache, the 12" Powerbook has DDR cache instead... so that cancels out the other (effective performace). Also, the cache would be running slightly faster on the 12" Powerbook (108.4%). Because this is on-die cache, it would not be the "fake" DDR that the main-board memory MIGHT be, so it would have 216.8% increase in access to the cache than the 800mhz iBook.

Back up to that estimated figure of 122.9%... if you multiply the value of the iBook -- $1299 by the increase in performance of the processor you get $1596.47 instead. The other new features including the DDR and faster bus speed will more than make up the difference between the two machines.

For me -- I'm getting the one with the Superdrive.

nighthawk

Jan 9, 2003, 06:40 PM

One more thing I wanted to add -- Look at the difference in the memory test performed by http://www.barefeats.com (http://www.barefeats.com/pb17.html) with Xbench...

Everyone of the Powerbook computers were nearly or over twice as fast as the iBook. These benchmarks do not show a good representation of normal performance, but this result shows that any application on the Powerbook 12" will have nearly 2x faster responsiness to the memory.

Applications like Photoshop will increase also because of the G4 processor, but other applications that more than average memory hogs would really benefit. I would suspect that iMovie and iPhoto would have significant improvements in their speed compared to the iBook. No doubt applications like Lightwave or other 3D modeling applications will benefit from the increased memory bandwidth.

I am a graphic artist, and memory and large files are everyday things for me. I bought a 12" iBook from Fry's but returned it when I found out about this new machine, and what I have heard about the 12" Powerbook from a friend of mine that has been able to test several major apps including... Maya, Shake, Combustion, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects... and they all work great.

I was debating back and forth between the two for quite a while, but now I am satisfied an about to place my order.

lmalave

Jan 9, 2003, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by nighthawk
Back up to that estimated figure of 122.9%... if you multiply the value of the iBook -- $1299 by the increase in performance of the processor you get $1596.47 instead. The other new features including the DDR and faster bus speed will more than make up the difference between the two machines.

Your logic makes little sense to me. So price should be in proportion to performance benchmarks? Since when is that the case in the computer industry? It isn't, because of the economic principle of diminishing marginal utility. Twice the performance is NOT twice the utility. That's why the iBook is a great machine - because I don't need more than an 800MHz G3. I really could care less about additional CPU - in fact I'll give it a negative marginal utility because it would make my machine run hotter.

jaguarx

Jan 9, 2003, 07:06 PM

At the end of the day the market will set the price based on the product's percieved worth. Differnet thigns matter to differnt people. Some people wnat an ibook as an oversized pda they can do work processing, e-mail and chat on that is durable as hell and portable and thus don't give two ****s about DDR. People want a 12" powerbook becase it gives them portable power to do some powerful work on thus processor and memory bandwidth are everything.. Personally i'm getting a 17" becase i want a desktop replacement that lets my work move with me.

nighthawk

Jan 9, 2003, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by lmalave

Your logic makes little sense to me. So price should be in proportion to performance benchmarks? Since when is that the case in the computer industry? It isn't, because of the economic principle of diminishing marginal utility. Twice the performance is NOT twice the utility. That's why the iBook is a great machine - because I don't need more than an 800MHz G3. I really could care less about additional CPU - in fact I'll give it a negative marginal utility because it would make my machine run hotter.

In the case of notebook computers, yes, performace would directly affect the value of the notebook. There are no known upgrades for the old iBooks, even though they were around the same time that the Pismos were (which have upgrades). Even upgrading an iMac is very hard and you have very few options, but a pro machine is not hard to upgrade. If on average the Powerbook 12" is 122.9% faster in all of the tasks that I would do compared to the iBook, then yes, it is a higher value to me.

As far as the machine running hot, we haven't heard anything about that yet.

blueBomber

Jan 9, 2003, 07:57 PM

how's this...

I cancelled my order for the 12" powerbook, simply because we can argue all we want, but until someone can sit down and compare the two using a variety of programs. I'll stick with my PC for now, and just hang until the debate settles before I choose between the ibook or the 12"pb

beud

Jan 9, 2003, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by t^3
Anybody know if these PB's have the new G4 (7457) that actually takes advantage of the DDR RAM, unlike the current PowerMacs?

Unfortunately not, as the L2 size listed in the specs is 256k. The 7457 will boost a 512k L2 and will be made on a .13 process (vs. a old .18 for the actual G4), which means nearly half the die size and half the power dissipation at a given frequency.

Frankly, knowing how hot run an iBook600, the 12' PB is probably going to be more useful as a toaster than computing device. :-)

NitroPye

Jan 9, 2003, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by lmalave

How is the AluBook more "bang for the buck". Other than the built-in Bluetooth I don't really see getting more value from an AluBook than what I currently have. I agree that the $900 price difference sounds waaaaay out of whack, though - the price difference is essentially the $500 difference in base price. So what are you getting for that $500?

iBook still rules!

A G4 is a large improvement. Dont forget DDR video ram too. Base price yes $500 but the $999 ibook isnt really a machine for anyone other then the super average consumer. The person who buys that machine will not be playing games other then snood and pop pop. I wouldnt really compare the base prices. I would compare the superdrive AlBook to the high end 14.1" book. Plus people want more power in a 12" machine rather then getting that power in a awkward 14""

NitroPye

Jan 9, 2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by blueBomber
how's this...

I cancelled my order for the 12" powerbook, simply because we can argue all we want, but until someone can sit down and compare the two using a variety of programs. I'll stick with my PC for now, and just hang until the debate settles before I choose between the ibook or the 12"pb
I wouldnt really take to much faith in what anyone else says but by acualy trying the machine youll be able to make the decision. Basicaly dont look to much into the benchmarks or what i say or someone else says. Goto apple store, try one doing the things that yud normally do (ie webbrowse, email) see if it fits your needs and make a decision.

nanosound

Jan 10, 2003, 12:55 AM

I plan on the 17" to replace my G4/500 AND Pismo. It has as much or more screen real estate than my huge 21" CRT. And with moderate portability, will be good for production work. I just tried a bench test on my G4, and it looks like the 17" runs about 2.5 times faster overall. That upgrade will be worth it.

My friend made a comment about the keyboard being set back quite a bit from the front and wondered if it would still be comfortable to type with as opposed to the 12" whose keyboard goes right to the edge. Otherwise, it's a nice system.

lmalave

Jan 10, 2003, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by NitroPye

Base price yes $500 but the $999 ibook isnt really a machine for anyone other then the super average consumer. The person who buys that machine will not be playing games other then snood and pop pop.

Thank you for making my argument for me. I wholeheartedly agree, for the "super average consumer" the $999 iBook is enough. But, um, wouldn't the vast majority of consumers be "average"? So for the vast majority of consumers (including myself), spending money on a more expensive computer that has features they don't even need is basically just throwing money away.

Prom1

Jan 10, 2003, 01:28 AM

First off I've heard or rather read nothing but hoping for more Video Ram for the TiBook, or SuperDrive within or hoping for FireWire 800 inside or faster DDR Ram. Well we got it all inside albiet for different configurations. Even myself wanted more.

I'm now satisfied that I can justify buying not just an iBook G3 @800Mhz for my daughter & girlfriend to use but also, A 12.1" PowerBook G4@867Mhz. Yes I wished it had L3 cache even at half or 1/4 speed (I have a question about L3 cache, is L3 cache running on the backside bus speed or on the full system bus speed????), but I'm ok. Why?? I'll tell you.

Didnt anyone notice the HardDisk Drive interface of the 12.1" and the 17.1" PowerBooks???? Ultra ATA/100!!!! Yes I'm aware that the HDD runs at only 4200Rpm but IBM is coming out later this summer of a 5400/7200RPM Ultra ATA/100 laptop drive!!!! No longer does the hard-drive half to run at a hurting hickup speed......I used to own a Compaq E500 laptop with 12GB HDD at 4200RPM with the ATA/66 interface. Faster HDD speed faster data gets to the Memory(DDR SDRAM) and the faster the CPU gets it and the faster you can interact with it. Sorry 15.1/15.2" TiBook users

I'm still currently watching the webcast albeit late but wanted to know what is the 12.1" case made of??? Aluminum like the 17"?? or Polycarbonate like the iBook?? Also like the AGP 4x graphics

Now what I'm hoping for is this: Is the PowerPC G4 CPU upgradeable on the 12.1" like the old Bronze PowerBook G3's???? Can someone look into this????

I think we'll see the PowerMacs have 8xAGP if ATi can get the Radeon 9700Pro over to Apple since its 8x AGP already!

Huked on Fonick

Jan 10, 2003, 02:15 AM

Storage to go
The hard drive in the 12-inch PowerBook is rubber-mounted to a magnesium frame to provide an impact-resistant buffer to safeguard your data. And with capacities up to 60GB, there is more than enough space for all your files, MP3s, movies and more.

humm Ruuber-mounted, magnesium frame. this sounds even more like a ibook with a g4!!!!!!! humm The size of it would also put it at the same size as the ibook with out the plexiglass cover....humm hummmmmmmm mesa thinks this is a ibook in disguise with a g4 in it and cost alot more..

Ata/100 wont make that much of a difference in a laptop laptops can barley use the ATA/66 in there maybe the new 7200 rpm drives can but those suckers should drain BATTERY.......

OSeXy!

Jan 10, 2003, 06:53 AM

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this in any of the theads but I'm interested in the fact that the new PBs still only have one button on the trackpad... Guess those Apple multi-button mouse rumours should be put on hold. Oh well. I thought Apple would use new 2003 'pro' machines to debut this.

etype

Jan 10, 2003, 06:55 AM

For those who, like me, crave screen real estate, particularly in laptops, and what to compare:

PowerBook 12" 1024x768 = 0.79 Mpx, 106.7 ppi
PowerBook 15" 1152x768 = 0.88 Mpx, 92.3 ppi
PowerBook 15" 1280x854 = 1.09 Mpx, 102.6 ppi
PowerBook 17" 1440x900 = 1.30 Mpx, 99.9 ppi
15" Studio Display 1024x768 = 0.79 Mpx, 85.3 ppi
17" Studio Display 1280x1024 = 1.31 Mpx, 96.4 ppi
22" Cinema Display 1600x1024 = 1.64 Mpx, 86.3 ppi
23" Cinema HD 1920x1200 = 2.30 Mpx, 98.4 ppi

(Mpx = megapixels, ppi = pixels per inch)

Given Mac OS X's typically larger font sizes, menu and other controls. I prefer the denser displays in the PowerBook 12" (106.7 ppi) & newer PowerBook 15" (102.6 ppi). I wonder if Apple would ever try to fit more pixels in the PowerBook 17" at some later date, say:

PowerBook 17" 1536x960 = 1.47 Mpx, 106.5 ppi

Would be lovely, wouldn't it?

etype

Jan 10, 2003, 07:02 AM

Apple still hasn't implemented full-sized "inverted T" arrow keys. I find the PowerBook's half-sized ones a bit tough for my fingers to home to.

Though, I'm guessing they'd rather keep the PowerBook's clean straight line across the bottom edge of the keyboard.

User X

Jan 10, 2003, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Huked on Fonick

Uh where you getting that??

12 inch 100 off
12 inch with superdrive 110 off
15 inch combo 100 off
15 inch super drive 150 off
17 inch 150 off... i dont see 300 there???

ADC?? but thats trickey and u only get 1 purchace a lifetime and u gona prove that your takeing a development corse....??

ADC PRICES

12 inch 360 off
12 inch with superdrive 400 off
15 inch combo 460 off
15 inch super drive 560 off
17 inch 660 off...

Humm thats more than 300?? are u talking about ADC prices??? cuz thats a little more than the education store and i think apple checks up on ADC orders oh yea add 100 to those orders cuz u gota by the ADC Plan- student ADC=99 dollars...

Edit- Added ADC Prices

http://store.apple.com/1-800-800-APPL/WebObjects/HED.woa/334/wo/aW3N9LzsVj4r3T2QLhG1AqGTCAM/2.3.0.3.27.33.0.1.3.1.3.1.1.0?100,83

When I log in with my school selected this what I see:

$1,499.00

12.1-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4

256MB DDR266 SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/100
Combo Drive
NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go
32MB DDR video memory
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort Extreme Ready
Bluetooth built-in
VGA & S-Video out
Discounted from $1,799 retail price

$1,679.00

12.1-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4

256MB DDR266 SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/100
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go
32MB DDR video memory
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort Extreme Ready
Bluetooth built-in
VGA & S-Video out
Discounted from $1,999 retail price

$1,999.00

15.2-inch TFT Display
1280x854 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
256MB SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/66
Combo Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9000
32MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort Ready
Bluetooth optional
DVI & S-Video out
Discounted from $2,299 retail price

$2,499.00

15.2-inch TFT Display
1280x854 resolution
1GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
512MB SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/66
SuperDrive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9000
64MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort built-in
Bluetooth optional
DVI & S-Video out
Discounted from $2,799 retail price

$2,999.00

17-inch TFT Display
1440x900 resolution
1GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/100
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go
64MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400
FireWire 800
AirPort Extreme built-in
Bluetooth built-in
DVI & S-Video out
Discounted from $3,299 retail price

utilizer

Jan 10, 2003, 08:46 AM

I just noticed something about the new PowerBooks; they do indeed have the new DDR memory but the current G4 processor placed in there doesn't support the speeds the DDR RAM's potential, so nothing new that we didn't already know. The thing that some may have failed to realize at first, like me, is being a Pismo owner myself, I noticed the tendency of users to stay with a machine for a good 3-4 years to maximize the utility out of the investment. Therefore, upgrades are crucial and very valuable. I've upgraded this machine with the Bluechip G4 500 mhz chipset from Powerlogix. Now, the same could be said for the new 17 in. PB; when upgrades are made available for it (possibly a good 1.5 years from now), the chipset will probably be either a 1.4 Ghz G4++ or the new IBM 970 at the same clock speed. It will then be able to support the bandwidth of the new DDR memory. Therefore, it won't merely be an upgrade but a massive boost in speed and a terrific investment, more so than any upgrade we've made in our current machines.
By then, you really won't have any need of asking for a more powerful computer, save for video professionals, and if you do, I'm sure there are some great desktops out there. And DVD drive makers: Listen up! Give the new Superdrive PowerBook owners a chance to upgrade their drives to faster speeds!

User X

Jan 10, 2003, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by User X

http://store.apple.com/1-800-800-APPL/WebObjects/HED.woa/334/wo/aW3N9LzsVj4r3T2QLhG1AqGTCAM/2.3.0.3.27.33.0.1.3.1.3.1.1.0?100,83

When I log in with my school selected this what I see:

$1,499.00

12.1-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4

256MB DDR266 SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/100
Combo Drive
NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go
32MB DDR video memory
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort Extreme Ready
Bluetooth built-in
VGA & S-Video out
Discounted from $1,799 retail price

$1,679.00

12.1-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4

256MB DDR266 SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/100
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go
32MB DDR video memory
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort Extreme Ready
Bluetooth built-in
VGA & S-Video out
Discounted from $1,999 retail price

$1,999.00

15.2-inch TFT Display
1280x854 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
256MB SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/66
Combo Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9000
32MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort Ready
Bluetooth optional
DVI & S-Video out
Discounted from $2,299 retail price

$2,499.00

15.2-inch TFT Display
1280x854 resolution
1GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
512MB SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/66
SuperDrive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9000
64MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort built-in
Bluetooth optional
DVI & S-Video out
Discounted from $2,799 retail price

$2,999.00

17-inch TFT Display
1440x900 resolution
1GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/100
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go
64MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400
FireWire 800
AirPort Extreme built-in
Bluetooth built-in
DVI & S-Video out
Discounted from $3,299 retail price

I must have clicked on the wrong link. I was in the "purchase for your school" store.

Damn...

I knew it was too good to be true.

NitroPye

Jan 10, 2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by lmalave

Thank you for making my argument for me. I wholeheartedly agree, for the "super average consumer" the $999 iBook is enough. But, um, wouldn't the vast majority of consumers be "average"? So for the vast majority of consumers (including myself), spending money on a more expensive computer that has features they don't even need is basically just throwing money away.

Your a bit above average, seeing is how you acually use the internet and frequent websites and forums like this one. The average is "i use computer for research and AOL"

NitroPye

Jan 10, 2003, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Prom1
First off I've heard or rather read nothing but hoping for more Video Ram for the TiBook, or SuperDrive within or hoping for FireWire 800 inside or faster DDR Ram. Well we got it all inside albiet for different configurations. Even myself wanted more.

I'm now satisfied that I can justify buying not just an iBook G3 @800Mhz for my daughter & girlfriend to use but also, A 12.1" PowerBook G4@867Mhz. Yes I wished it had L3 cache even at half or 1/4 speed (I have a question about L3 cache, is L3 cache running on the backside bus speed or on the full system bus speed????), but I'm ok. Why?? I'll tell you.

Didnt anyone notice the HardDisk Drive interface of the 12.1" and the 17.1" PowerBooks???? Ultra ATA/100!!!! Yes I'm aware that the HDD runs at only 4200Rpm but IBM is coming out later this summer of a 5400/7200RPM Ultra ATA/100 laptop drive!!!! No longer does the hard-drive half to run at a hurting hickup speed......I used to own a Compaq E500 laptop with 12GB HDD at 4200RPM with the ATA/66 interface. Faster HDD speed faster data gets to the Memory(DDR SDRAM) and the faster the CPU gets it and the faster you can interact with it. Sorry 15.1/15.2" TiBook users

I'm still currently watching the webcast albeit late but wanted to know what is the 12.1" case made of??? Aluminum like the 17"?? or Polycarbonate like the iBook?? Also like the AGP 4x graphics

Now what I'm hoping for is this: Is the PowerPC G4 CPU upgradeable on the 12.1" like the old Bronze PowerBook G3's???? Can someone look into this????

I think we'll see the PowerMacs have 8xAGP if ATi can get the Radeon 9700Pro over to Apple since its 8x AGP already!

Yes i forgot to add this ata/100 is a BIG improvement

NitroPye

Jan 10, 2003, 10:20 AM

Whether or not you NEED the extra power the new 12" PB is still more power and features per the amount of money. It is a ratio, which many dont seem to be grasping

regan

Jan 10, 2003, 11:12 AM

I see some people are bitchin that the new 12" powerbook is NOT a sub notebook at all. I can understand the argument, but to me True "sub" notebooks are "sub" standard in my book. The new 12" apple is as small as I ever want them to get!

First off, I'm a BIG guy with BIG hands, and anything short of a full size keyboard is going to crunch my fingers up into knarly arthritic claws. perhaps if you are a 4'11" circus freak. Then again the 17" is good enough for Vern Troyer and hes like 3' sumthin. ;P

Secondly the whole size issue is rendered moot when you sacrifice battery power as well. Cause thats what some of those pc "subs" have. Who wants a one hour battery life? Not me. Kinda defeats the purpose of a portable. Not to mention NO optical drive(dvd or cd) unless you want to lug around more stuff...again...defeating the whole purpose of being portable.

Jobs is right when he says this is the year of the notebook, and that notebooks will eventually surpase desktop sales.

I don't doubt some people want something they can literally stick in their pocket....but it gets to the point where form cripples functionality. If I just want to check emails or stock qoutes, I'll use my cell phone or get a PDA. Otherwise the new Apple 12" powerbook fits the bill. I mean its exactly what Jobs said it is...the smallest FULLY featured notebook in the UNIVERSE.

Personally, I need more screen real estate...so I'm gonna wait to check out the 17" in person...or till they update the 15" to an aluma style with the airport extreme etc. The tibook is so thin, that to me it is VERY portable....but it HAS desktop power.

After I get that...and in a perfect world where money was no object, I would definately get the 12" powerbook when I wanted ULTRA small and portable. Anything smaller than that would just be a toy to me and completely useless. Not to mention a strain on my eyes, hands AND battery.

Perhaps one day Apple will come out with a phone/pda/iPOD thingy...

-Regan

nighthawk

Jan 10, 2003, 12:35 PM

FireWire 800 from MacCentral.com

"Speed, speed, speed," was the answer that Boger gave as to why Apple decided to move to FireWire 800. Boger said that Apple also decided to implement FireWire 800 because of the added distance and speed that the high-end of the specification provides...

FireWire 800 doubles the bandwidth of the Mac's FireWire ports while preserving compatibility with existing FireWire products. This added speed allows users to use external FireWire drives at speeds equivalent to their internal hard disk drives. Moreover, developers are already exploring other ways to tap the bandwidth promised by FireWire 800, such as inexpensive FireWire 800 uncompressed video editing and fast RAID arrays...

However, the 1394b, or FireWire 800, specification provides for transfer rates of up to 3,200Mbps over specialized fiber optic cabling. Additionally, FireWire 800 can be used over both standard Cat-5 Ethernet cabling or optical fiber at distances of up to 100 meters. Consumers will most likely only see FireWire 800, with later increases to FireWire 1,600 or even 3,200 over copper cabling up to 4.5 meters away as FireWire evolves.

Apple's implementation of FireWire 800 uses what is called a bilingual connector, meaning that it can connect at top speed to other FireWire 800 devices and also connect to FireWire 400 devices [which Belkin will sell soon]...

Streit said that the major benefit for FireWire 800 is the increased bandwidth. "Current drives are faster than FireWire 400," Streit said. "So even with one drive, users can have a portable drive that is just as fast as an internal drive with FireWire 800."

...While many companies have plans to develop FireWire 800 PCI and PC cards for older Macs, Unibrain plans to ship a three-port FireWire 800 PCI card by the end of February. Marketing Director Errikos Tzavaras said that a price had not yet been determined for the upgrade, but that the device was primarily being developed to take advantage of the company's FireNet FireWire networking. Tzavaras said that a FireNet network using FireWire 800 would potentially be faster than gigabit Ethernet at a fraction of the cost.

Rocketman

Jan 10, 2003, 01:29 PM

One of the smaller aspects of the announcement that caught my attention was the mention of compact PCI or cPCI.

It besides FW3 is one of the main candidates for gigawire based on this recent research I did looking for FC-AL produucts (fiberchannel).

--

The LightPulse LP9002C Fiber Channel CompactPCI (cPCI) host bus adapter combines the new generation features and functionality of the 2Gbps low-profile LP9002L with the rugged Eurocard mechanics of the CompactPCI architecture. Like the LP9002L, the LP9002C provides support for 2Gbps Fiber Channel data rates, delivering the industry's highest performance. The LP9002C features automatic speed negotiation capability, which allows complete compatibility with existing 1Gbps Fiber Channel storage area networks (SANs), and allows seamless upgrades to higher speed 2Gbps SANs.The LP9002C provides the flexibility and broad interoperability needed for complex and highly scalable SANs. The LP9002C provides a unique combination of features, including switched fabric support, full-duplex data transfers, high data integrity features, and support for all Fiber Channel topologies. LP9002C also features sophisticated hardware that provides superior performance in SANs, delivering low latency and high throughput in switched fabric, arbitrated loop and clustered

--

This is used in file sharing applications where on the desktop each accessable drive shows as a mounted volume. As these topoligies get denser we will need a threaded mounted volume window!

Notably FC optical has run lengths of 10km and copper line runs of some 30m. Pretty impressive. The hardware costs for cards and switches are north of 1000BT right now but if this sort of technology were popularized for media serving applications and mass produced it could drop to a bit over 100BT hardware prices.

The AirPort Extreme uses IIRC cPCI for its interface bus.

None of this has been hinted at by Apple or any of the rumour sites I have seen. We're talking 1-2.2 GB/s here folks.

Rocketman

Alastair

Jan 10, 2003, 03:43 PM

I'm seriously considering buying a 17" albook.
Does anyone know if the graphics card and processor are upgradeable?
If they are I think I can justify the expense.

nighthawk

Jan 10, 2003, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Alastair
I'm seriously considering buying a 17" albook.
Does anyone know if the graphics card and processor are upgradeable?
If they are I think I can justify the expense.

Given that the Powerbook G4 is about 2 years old (as a product line) and now upgrades have been released for them yet, it is unknown. It may be sometime in the future that the processor will be upgradable, but it is highly unlikely that the video card will be upgradable. Usually video chips on labtops are integrated onto the motherboard -- not a removable card.

Don't let that change your mind about the 17" though, a friend of mine has the 1.5 year old 550mhz G4 and loves it... and he is doing higher end graphics stuff for classes including video editing. Just consider that all computers have a comfortable lifespan of about 2 years of use before you need to think seriously about upgrading them.

The 17" Powerbook is "the best there is" and probably will remain so for at least the next 6 months.

nickgold

Jan 10, 2003, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by nighthawk
that change your mind about the 17" though, a friend of mine has the 1.5 year old 550mhz G4 and loves it... and he is doing higher end graphics stuff for classes including video editing. Just consider that all computers have a comfortable lifespan of about 2 years of use before you need to think seriously about upgrading them.

Come on... two years of use? I am using an iMac 450 right now. I own a G4 Sawtooth tower that I use for AV. That puppy is a little over three years old now, and with a video upgrade, should last another few. (Although I am lusting after the PB12"!)

Computers get as much use out of them as you get out of them. Some people still sequence music on Ataris and Commodores. Most people also can't afford shelling out a few grand every couple of years!

pyrotoaster

Jan 11, 2003, 12:44 AM

I can understand some people showing doubt in the capabilities of the PB12", but I'm liking what I'm seeing.

I was saving for a $1300 iBook when Apple released an $1800 Powerbook with the features I want, an even smaller design, a sleeker look (let's face it, I want a Mac my PC friends will envy), a bigger and better hard drive, a better graphics card, more RAM (and DDR at that!), a faster and more powerful processor (plus I don't see much of a future for the G3, although it's had a great run), bluetooth, and AirPort Extreme.
It seems more than worth $500 to me!

I'm still months away from my purchase (unless I can dig up some eBay gem in my closet), and I plan on heading out to an Apple Store later this month to try out the new AlBook (which honestly doesn't sound as cool as TiBook), and see for myself what this little guy is made of.

BTW, regan has a good point about laptop size. I know some people are saying the 12" AlBook isn't a sub-notebook, anyone who watched the expo heard SJ's remark about the Duo, which was considered a sub-notebook. The AlBook is smaller than that, so I say it's more than fair to call it a sub-notebook.
Also, I don't think Apple should introduce any laptop without a full-size keyboard anytime soon. Some people just can't type on a smaller keyboard, and Apple can't afford to alienate any customers.

dguisinger

Jan 11, 2003, 01:11 AM

You guys are complaining too much. Apple's notebooks are their most competitive lines.

Take a Dell Latitude X200, Dell's smallest and lightest laptop.

800MHz
12.1 XGA TFT
256MB Ram
EXTERNAL CDRW/DVD drive
30GB Hard Drive
10/100 Ethernet
56K Modem
Windows XP
11Mbps WiFi Ready (adapter not included in price)
2.8 Lbs ** EXCLUDES CDROM WEIGHT
(Battery Life Unknown)
$2126.00

Apple PowerBook

867MHz
12.1 XGA
256MB RAM
INTERNAL CDRW/DVD drive
40GB Hard Drive
10/100 Ethernet
56K Modem
FireWire 400
Bluetooth
54Mbps Airport Extreme Ready (adapter not included in price)
4.6Lbs
5 Hours of Battery Life

$1799.00

The Apple 12" PowerBook makes better sense than the Dell 12" Latitude....which Dell advertises as their smallest notebook.

lmalave

Jan 11, 2003, 02:18 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dguisinger
You guys are complaining too much. Apple's notebooks are their most competitive lines.

Take a Dell Latitude X200, Dell's smallest and lightest laptop.

800MHz
12.1 XGA TFT
256MB Ram
EXTERNAL CDRW/DVD drive
30GB Hard Drive
10/100 Ethernet
56K Modem
Windows XP
11Mbps WiFi Ready (adapter not included in price)
2.8 Lbs ** EXCLUDES CDROM WEIGHT
(Battery Life Unknown)
$2126.00

Apple PowerBook

867MHz
12.1 XGA
256MB RAM
INTERNAL CDRW/DVD drive
40GB Hard Drive
10/100 Ethernet
56K Modem
FireWire 400
Bluetooth
54Mbps Airport Extreme Ready (adapter not included in price)
4.6Lbs
5 Hours of Battery Life

$1799.00

The Apple 12" PowerBook makes better sense than the Dell 12" Latitude....which Dell advertises as their smallest notebook. [/
QUOTE]

And you forgot:

Apple iBook:

800MHz
12.1 XGA
384MB RAM (from any reseller)
Internal DVD/CD-RW
30 GB Drive
Wi-Fi Ready
Ethernet/Modem/Firewire/USB ports
ATI Radeon 7500 32MB
4.9 lbs
etc.

$1299 only!!!

Apple laptops rock!

BTW, here is the real competition for the PowerBook:

Fujitsu Lifebook P2000
933MHz (Transmeta Crusoe)
10.6" wide-format SXGA TFT (1280 x 768)
With 1600x1200 external and multi-display support
256MB memory
40GB hard drive
INTERNAL DVD/CD-RW Combo drive
Built-in Wi-Fi at 11Mbps
56K Modem
10/100 Ethernet
1 Firewire and 2 USB 2.0 Ports
PC Card Slot
6 Hours Battery Life (with High-capacity battery)
Windows XP Home
3.4 lbs. with combo drive and battery!! (not sure about high-capacity battery, though)

All of the above for only $1678. It's a tough race - the Fujitsu definititely takes the prize for "lightest full-featured laptop". The only way Apple can claim the "smallest full-featured laptop" is because of the PB12's incredible 1.18" thickness, which gives it a smaller total volume than the Fujitsu P2000 which is 1.59" thick.

If you ask me, though, $1700 or $1800 is still way too expensive. That's why I'm sticking with my trusty $1300 iBook - the best value in a laptop in the (admittedly short) history of computers (so far)

caboosemoose

Jan 11, 2003, 12:45 PM

Hate to be pedantic, but for the $1300 charged for the 12" combo iBook, you could have a Dell inspiron 4150, 1.7ghz P4 512k L2cache, 256mb DDR ram, 14" XGA, combo drive, 30 gb HD etc, radeon 7500 mobility 32mb. (you'd need to pay an extra 50 bucks for wireless).

I don't want to get into a flaming war, but that system would give the 800mhz G3 based iBook a pretty unpleasant beating, raw performance wise.

The iBook may be a nice system (a fair bit prettier than the Dell, but not that much better put together), and it is very good value for an apple, but by PC standards it is not exceptional value.

Just to add to the debate....am I the only one who thinks the new powerbooks are fairly irrelevant. Of course they are gorgeous, and I'd love to have one of each, but surely what Apple desperately needs is new technology in its desktop line. The G4 was ripe for replacement over a year ago and its getting beyond a joke now. I really wish I could justify buying an apple rather than a PC, I really don't appreciate having to use M$ products. But the price apple charge for antiquated technology in their desktop line is simply unjustifiable. God those G4 chips must cost apple about 5 dollars each these days, video cards are comidity items these days, as is memory and so on. At least the apple's powerbook notebook line is genuinely more advanced in several areas versus most PC compititors...Rant rave etc.

regan

Jan 11, 2003, 01:00 PM

Caboose,

You forget ONE thing...if you get a pc laptop...you get a buggy pc operating system with it. Now who wants that?! :)

But if you get a powerbook, you get a seemless union of hardware and software. OSX rocks! The new powerbooks are AWESOME...can't wait to see them up close and personal at the apple soho store here in nyc. Also, it shouldn't be long before they update the 15" model as well(soon as tibook inventory gets cleaned out).

As far as desktops go...something BIG is coming. You can feel it. I think it'll be well worth the wait for those looking to buy a desktop.

-Regan

newmanium

Jan 11, 2003, 01:13 PM

i haven't seen this brought up yet, but are the new powerbooks (preferably the 12") still compatible with the older airport cards? i've noticed that the new airport extreme cards have a different design to them and possibly a different interface. i'd hate to have my first $100 investment into aiport go to waste if i get a new powerbook.

caboosemoose

Jan 11, 2003, 01:24 PM

yo regan,

Firstly i did say that I would rather not use M$ products, and I do prefer the apple platform (I use both PC's and Mac's), but anyone who has used XP extensively will be able to tell you that its actually pretty stable, probably on a par with OSX in most situations.

Secondly if this great new desktop advance is a higher clocked G4 then I don't want to know, that would suck. What I really want to see is a Mac based on either the new 64bit power pc chip, or the upcoming athlon x86 64bit chip. With either of these two chips, Apple would really putting itself ahead of the game once again.

regan

Jan 11, 2003, 01:33 PM

Moose,

I think that is exactly whats gonna happen. Apple is waiting for those chips to to be ready. Otherwise they would have given the desktop line a wimpy speedbump at MWSF. The fact that they didn't leads me to believe sumthin BIG is coming for the desktop faithful. As the J-man said...buckle up. :)

caboosemoose

Jan 11, 2003, 01:58 PM

It would be sweet if that happened, but my feeling is there won't be any new cpu technology for apple desktops until late this year at the very earliest.

lmalave

Jan 11, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by caboosemoose
Hate to be pedantic, but for the $1300 charged for the 12" combo iBook, you could have a Dell inspiron 4150, 1.7ghz P4 512k L2cache, 256mb DDR ram, 14" XGA, combo drive, 30 gb HD etc, radeon 7500 mobility 32mb. (you'd need to pay an extra 50 bucks for wireless).

I don't want to get into a flaming war, but that system would give the 800mhz G3 based iBook a pretty unpleasant beating, raw performance wise.

The iBook may be a nice system (a fair bit prettier than the Dell, but not that much better put together), and it is very good value for an apple, but by PC standards it is not exceptional value.

Just to add to the debate....am I the only one who thinks the new powerbooks are fairly irrelevant. Of course they are gorgeous, and I'd love to have one of each, but surely what Apple desperately needs is new technology in its desktop line. The G4 was ripe for replacement over a year ago and its getting beyond a joke now. I really wish I could justify buying an apple rather than a PC, I really don't appreciate having to use M$ products. But the price apple charge for antiquated technology in their desktop line is simply unjustifiable. God those G4 chips must cost apple about 5 dollars each these days, video cards are comidity items these days, as is memory and so on. At least the apple's powerbook notebook line is genuinely more advanced in several areas versus most PC compititors...Rant rave etc.

The Dell 4150 is not in the same product category. You just can't compare a 12" laptop with a 14" laptop. Please go take a look at Dell's 12" laptops (or Sony's, or Fujitsus), then get back to me and tell me if you think those PCs are a better value, feature for feature.

And don't put down the iBooks because they use a G3 - it's a great mobile chip that allows for the 5 hour battery life. Why don't you make similar comments about the 800MHz to 1.2 GHz PIII Mobile chips that the Dell and Sony ultraportables use? Or the 933 MHz Transmeta Crusoe processor that Fujitsu uses?

Now ask yourself - why do these companies - some of the best PC companies out there - make laptops with such "antiquated" technology? I'm sorry, if you don't understand the difference between a truly mobile laptop and a "desktop replacement", then you are obviously not the target market for these ultramobile laptops.

Personally, I think I know a thing or two about value. I already have a desktop (Athlon XP 1700+ running Windows 2000) that I built for $175 - the best value in a desktop, if you have the patience to build your own computer. I'm happy with my desktop - it's ugly but it goes under my desk. I don't WANT a "desktop replacement" in a laptop - I tried that with my previous laptop purchase (a Dell Inspiron 5000), an ugly brick that developed cracks all over the case and lasted only 2 years before the display died. What I WANT in a laptop is something small, light, RUGGED, and affordable. I already went through the whole purchase decision process just a couple months ago, and I can say without reservation that the iBook is by far the best value in a MOBILE laptop.

caboosemoose

Jan 11, 2003, 02:20 PM

Well, i was extrapolating from the fact that apple charge more for the 14" iBook. So feel free to compare the below spec of the $1300 Dell to the $1500 14" iBook:

Dell inspiron 4150, 1.7ghz P4 512k L2cache, 256mb DDR ram, 14" XGA, combo drive, 30 gb HD etc, radeon 7500 mobility 32mb. (you'd need to pay an extra 50 bucks for wireless).

I could also argue that it is unfair to compare the 12" iBook with Dell's ultraportables. The iBook is significantly larger and heavier, and has a plastic case versus alloy and is probably the only example of where the Dell option is actually better built than the Apple alternative.

Of course, none of these comparisons are like for like, and the fact that just about every 12.1" PC system is designed to be an ultraprotable, unlike the 12" iBook confuses the issue somewhat. I say again, the iBook is very good value, extraordinarily so by Apple standards. But by PC standards, it is competitve, not a stand-out, head and shoulders winner.

P.S. I am well aware of the differences between desktop and mobile cpu's, and I am aware that both the G3 and G4 mobile derivatives are effective mobile solutions. However, if you think that Apple continue to use the G3 in the iBook in order to achieve superior battery life, rather than because of internal Apple product positioning, then more fool you. Imagine if you will that the Power book series was currently running the new 64bit PowerPC CPU. Do you still think they would have kept the iBook line running the G3 in that circumstance?

P.P.S. Regarding the Transmeta chip, it's virtually non-existant. And the P3m tualatin is much faster, clockspeed for clockspeed than the P4 making it a more suitable mobile chip than the P4m in many ways. The G3 is slower than the G4 clockspeed for clockspeed - hardly ideal in a mobile CPU.

roger, over and out

eric_n_dfw

Jan 11, 2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by caboosemoose
P.S. I am well aware of the differences between desktop and mobile cpu's, and I am aware that both the G3 and G4 mobile derivatives are effective mobile solutions. However, if you think that Apple continue to use the G3 in the iBook in order to achieve superior battery life, rather than because of internal Apple product positioning, then more fool you. Imagine if you will that the Power book series was currently running the new 64bit PowerPC CPU. Do you still think they would have kept the iBook line running the G3 in that circumstance?
[/B]
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the G3's in the iBooks are any different than those in the G3 iMacs. I also believe the G4 in the PowerBooks are the same as the ones in the desktop Macs. The cache amounts may be different, but these are not like the Intel and AMD "mobile" versions that step down to reduce power when needed. The G3 and G4 are low power chips as they are.

Originally posted by caboosemoose
The G3 is slower than the G4 clockspeed for clockspeed - hardly ideal in a mobile CPU.
[/B]
Um - technically not true. Not unless you are talking about AltiVec enhanced applications. I have a G3 400 PowerMac that I upgraded to a G4 400 a couple of years ago. Final Cut Pro and other app's that use AltiVec got extreem speed-up. Quicken, IE, Netscape and practically evey other app did not.

That being said, OS X's GUI does use some AltiVec optimization and I would not run OS X on any G3 unless it was 800 Mhz or so. So I guess, you are right for OS X users. Maybe I should just shut up now :p

caboosemoose

Jan 11, 2003, 04:16 PM

I wouldn't know for sure, but I'd be surprised if the G3 and G4 have the same performance clockspeed for clockspeed. with or without ALtiVec.

Re intel mobile cpu's, there's no difference between the actual core of a mobile or desktop intel cpu either. The mobo's they run on are different, and the chip packaging is different. Also mobile chips produced from the top-end cores from the yield, hence they are clocked down from the speed they would run stablely in a desktop application.

I'm going to shut up now as well!

eric_n_dfw

Jan 11, 2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by caboosemoose
I wouldn't know for sure, but I'd be surprised if the G3 and G4 have the same performance clockspeed for clockspeed. with or without ALtiVec.

Re intel mobile cpu's, there's no difference between the actual core of a mobile or desktop intel cpu either. The mobo's they run on are different, and the chip packaging is different. Also mobile chips produced from the top-end cores from the yield, hence they are clocked down from the speed they would run stablely in a desktop application.

I'm going to shut up now as well!

The G4 is, for all intents and purposes, a G3 with AltiVec added. It actully is based on a differnt core than the G3 but which one is "better" is a toss up. In fact, many app's that don't use AltiVec or much floating point ops actually fun slightly faster on same clocked G3's. (Poke around on www.xlr8yourmac.com for benchmarks) I can speak from experience that the old rc5 distributed.net client ran non-AltiVec cores slower on my G4 400 than my G3 400. (Use the AltiVec core and the thing screemed to about 2x the performance of my 700 Mhz P3 machine though!) I believe the G3 is based on the old 603 PPC core, the G4 on the 604 core. 604 had awesome floating point performance. I think the G3 actually has better integer performance than the G4.

As far as the mobile editions of the Pentiums, I thought I had read somewhere that they are different - with on chip power management that shut down power to portions of the chip that weren't in use and slowed the clock down when it could. I look for a url on that.

caboosemoose

Jan 11, 2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

The G4 is, for all intents and purposes, a G3 with AltiVec added. It actully is based on a differnt core than the G3 but which one is "better" is a toss up. In fact, many app's that don't use AltiVec or much floating point ops actually fun slightly faster on same clocked G3's. (Poke around on www.xlr8yourmac.com for benchmarks) I can speak from experience that the old rc5 distributed.net client ran non-AltiVec cores slower on my G4 400 than my G3 400. (Use the AltiVec core and the thing screemed to about 2x the performance of my 700 Mhz P3 machine though!) I believe the G3 is based on the old 603 PPC core, the G4 on the 604 core. 604 had awesome floating point performance. I think the G3 actually has better integer performance than the G4.

As far as the mobile editions of the Pentiums, I thought I had read somewhere that they are different - with on chip power management that shut down power to portions of the chip that weren't in use and slowed the clock down when it could. I look for a url on that.

As always I could be wrong, but i believe there are no actual core differences on the current mobile chips. In the past, I believe it has never been economic to make different versions of cores for mobile and desktop. I also do not believe that current intel mobile cpu's are able to power down parts of the core. It may be that certain parts or functions of the core were connected or wired up so to speak on certain versions (but this is common enough and there are plenty of examples of geeks who have the knowledge to place a bit of soloder here and there to turn one chip into another and release hidden capabilities). Of course Banias (now called Centrino) IS a dedicated mobile core, although I'm not sure what it specific capabilities are.

wsteineker

Jan 11, 2003, 05:41 PM

Does anyone have the speeds for the new 12" PB combo drives? I looked on the Apple's website and I can't seem to find them. Thanks for the help!

MacKid

Jan 11, 2003, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by newmanium
i haven't seen this brought up yet, but are the new powerbooks (preferably the 12") still compatible with the older airport cards? i've noticed that the new airport extreme cards have a different design to them and possibly a different interface. i'd hate to have my first $100 investment into aiport go to waste if i get a new powerbook.

From judging by the pics (I haven't seen them in person), the new AirPort cards are much more square, the others being more a rectangular shape, and therefore, they wouldn't fit inside and older mac, and vice versa. :(

Abstract

Jan 11, 2003, 09:41 PM

They use different slots, so there's no chance for it to fit unless there was an adapter or something. I'm not 100% sure, though.

lmalave

Jan 11, 2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by caboosemoose

I could also argue that it is unfair to compare the 12" iBook with Dell's ultraportables. The iBook is significantly larger and heavier, and has a plastic case versus alloy and is probably the only example of where the Dell option is actually better built than the Apple alternative.

True, hence my original comment about the Fujitsu being the closest competition, since it has an internal optical drive. Basically, the Fujitsu is smaller and lighter, but also more expensive, and of course running Windows vs. OS X.

As to you second comment: alloy, schmalloy, I'll take the iBook's construction over that of any PC maker's anyday!! Macs are DURABLE. My iBook is my first Mac, and what really turned me on to macs was looking at my girlfriend's Beige G3. She bought her 266MHz G3 around the same time that I bought a Toshiba Infinia Pentium 200. I junked my Toshiba about three years ago. Her G3? It's running OS 10.2.3 like a champ! Of course, over time I helped her upgrade her Beige G3 with a 500MHz G4 ZIF CPU upgrade, 784 MB RAM, a 40GB hard drive, a DVD-ROM drive, a USB/Firewire card, and an ATI Rage 16MB card.

And I though that was pretty impressive UNTIL she pulled out her 1994-vintage PowerBook 520c. I was dumfounded that such a machine could be 7 years old (at the time). It was small, light and felt SOLID. Even by today's standards that was a beautifully designed computer. The 10.6" 640x480 color screen was pretty sharp considering when the laptop was built. Just for fun, I upgraded the laptop to OS 8.6. Soon I was surfing the web with freakin' IE 5 on the thing!!! In fact, when my girlfriend wanted to borrow my Dell (for the larger screen size), I could work fine on her PowerBook. I'm a database/web developer, so everything I run is on the server side. I found a good text editor, FTP program, and SSH client and I was good to go!

So anyway, that whole experience with her Beige G3 and PowerBook convinced me that my next computer purchase was going to be a Mac. I think my iBook is an elegant, rugged, worthy successor to the PowerBook lineage exemplified by the 520c, and I see no reason why I can't still be using my trusty little iBook for the rest of this decade. It does everything I need to do, it's a great size and weight, and I'm in nirvana being able to run all my Unix tools natively.

shadowfax

Jan 11, 2003, 10:08 PM

it's really a shame that they made the old airport incompatible with extreme at the hardware level--as in, i can't upgrade my powerbook to it. they're going to have to do something about that. someone will. it's so ironic how they tout it on that PR page with a bunch of smiling people using 15 inch powerbooks (because they are still the most prcatical for typical mobile usage while still being honking fast, heh), which will, according to apples tech info, never be able to utilize airport extreme.

of course, there is no apparent reason to care, for me. i mean, shoot, 54 Mbps still balks huge when compared to 100Mbps from my 100BaseTX. with 11 Mbps i am getting my full internet bandwidth, so i don't need extreme there. and then, i consider that whenever i want to do high speed LAN transfers, like a network backup, heck, that takes a long time on any connection, but plugging it in to my LAN increases the transfer speed by 10x. with airport extreme, we are talking still a 2x speed advantage on wired, so it's still behind. i can understand that Airport extreme is desirable, but when i think about it, it would be a waste for me even if i could get it, because i'd plug my laptop into my lan the only time i would see a benefit from AE.

Huked on Fonick

Jan 11, 2003, 10:39 PM

PB 12 inch CD-R 24x CDRW-10X DVD Read-8x CD read 24x

Combo drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW); reads DVDs at 8x speed; writes CD-R discs at 24x speed; writes CD-RW discs at 10x speed; reads CDs at 24x speed (12-inch model)

Hope that helps

As for the ibook case its not "Plastic" its this thing called Plexiglass....In case u never herd of it you have proabaly seen it on TV...its the stuff they make bullet proof windows out of... and the plexiglass is on a metel Frace.... Magnesium.......Trust me the Ibook is stronger than any dell even that allow one you where talking about it, its also alot stronger than the 15 inch Tibooks i dont know about the new Alubooks..........

As for the dell inspiron 4150 i dont know see where u getting those numbers i am at the dell sight now
Lets compare

Dell
1.7 GHZ P4 with 512k L2
256megs ram
ATI RADON 7500 with 16megs VRAM
40 Gig HD
CD-ROM-Drive/DVD-Drive/CD-RW- Combo add 80 bucks.....
WiFi Ready Card cost $89 for internal or $69 for external
Windows Xp Home-Pro Add $79
Total Price with internal Wifi Card
1,500-50 dollar rebate.(thats with Combo,Xp Pro, and wifi card) not includeing tax if dell charges tax

14inch Ibook From Macmall
800mhz G3 with 512k L2
640 Megs of Ram
ATI RADON 7500 with 32megs VRAM
30 Gig HD
Combo Drive
Airport at $79
Total Price $1,612.99 (with airport) No TAX

Looks like the Ibook cost 100 more but it comes with 384megs of more ram. A 1.7 GHZ P4 is about equil to a 900mhz P3 which is about equil to a 800mhz G3 so the Processor is about the Same. The Ibook has ALOT MORE RAM and twice the video ram. I would say the Ibook would probably win in terms of speed because of the better video card and ram, not the Dell......humm

(i know windows XP Pro is not needed but Xp Home is horrid i had it on my PC and i just could do alot of stuff i needed to do(networking and system control as well as combo drive but the Ibook has a combo so i figured the dell needed one......)

Final Conclusion the 14 inch ibookis better but why u would get one i dont know... THERE HUGE compared to the 12.(oh yea to get 640 ram add 450 to price of dell)

PS. Dell claims the Battery Last 2-5 hours so lets put that 3 hours and ibook claims 6 hours so lets put that at 5(my friend gets more than 5 on his 14 inch about 5 1/2)(my 12 inch ibook gets 4 1/2 consistently)... The Dell wont do u anygood when it has no battery.... hummm

caboosemoose

Jan 11, 2003, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by Huked on Fonick
PB 12 inch CD-R 24x CDRW-10X DVD Read-8x CD read 24x

Combo drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW); reads DVDs at 8x speed; writes CD-R discs at 24x speed; writes CD-RW discs at 10x speed; reads CDs at 24x speed (12-inch model)

Hope that helps

As for the ibook case its not "Plastic" its this thing called Plexiglass....In case u never herd of it you have proabaly seen it on TV...its the stuff they make bullet proof windows out of... and the plexiglass is on a metel Frace.... Magnesium.......Trust me the Ibook is stronger than any dell even that allow one you where talking about it, its also alot stronger than the 15 inch Tibooks i dont know about the new Alubooks..........

As for the dell inspiron 4150 i dont know see where u getting those numbers i am at the dell sight now
Lets compare

Dell
1.7 GHZ P4 with 512k L2
256megs ram
ATI RADON 7500 with 16megs VRAM
40 Gig HD
CD-ROM-Drive/DVD-Drive/CD-RW- Combo add 80 bucks.....
WiFi Ready Card cost $89 for internal or $69 for external
Windows Xp Home-Pro Add $79
Total Price with internal Wifi Card
1,500-50 dollar rebate.(thats with Combo,Xp Pro, and wifi card) not includeing tax if dell charges tax

14inch Ibook From Macmall
800mhz G3 with 512k L2
640 Megs of Ram
ATI RADON 7500 with 32megs VRAM
30 Gig HD
Combo Drive
Airport at $79
Total Price $1,612.99 (with airport) No TAX

Looks like the Ibook cost 100 more but it comes with 384megs of more ram. A 1.7 GHZ P4 is about equil to a 900mhz P3 which is about equil to a 800mhz G3 so the Processor is about the Same. The Ibook has ALOT MORE RAM and twice the video ram. I would say the Ibook would probably win in terms of speed because of the better video card and ram, not the Dell......humm

(i know windows XP Pro is not needed but Xp Home is horrid i had it on my PC and i just could do alot of stuff i needed to do(networking and system control as well as combo drive but the Ibook has a combo so i figured the dell needed one......)

Final Conclusion the 14 inch ibookis better but why u would get one i dont know... THERE HUGE compared to the 12.(oh yea to get 640 ram add 450 to price of dell)

PS. Dell claims the Battery Last 2-5 hours so lets put that 3 hours and ibook claims 6 hours so lets put that at 5(my friend gets more than 5 on his 14 inch about 5 1/2)(my 12 inch ibook gets 4 1/2 consistently)... The Dell wont do u anygood when it has no battery.... hummm

I priced that Dell up a week or so ago, several special deals, rebate etc. The price that you are getting is obviously whats available right now, although you may have missed linking through somewhere corrdctly to get the minimum price available. But if you have any experience of Dell you'll know how their prices change on a daily basis, often by large amounts (if you link through the special deals correctly). Its a bit silly but there you are.

For anyone at all price conscious, buying a memory maxed-out system from either Dell or Apple would be nuts, its so easily available from elsewhere so cheap, so lets not quible about that, it is fairly irrelevant.

I don't know where you get the idea that a .13 micron 512k cache 1.7ghz P4 is equivalent to a 900mhz P3, that's pure fantasy (er....no offense meant..). I don't know the figures exactly, but I do know that when the mobile P4 launched at 1.6 ghz it was benching just about identically to the fastest P3 then available - the 1.2ghz .13 micron 512k tualatin P3. (DOn't forget the original P4 was .18 micron, 256k cahce and a fair bit slower)

The 4150 IS available with 32mb r7500m, so video is the one area with absolute parity.

You have also convenietly chosen to entirely ignore the clear cut superiority of the Dell's memory subsystem.

If you want to get bitchy about battery life, then remember that the 4150 is capable of running 2 batteries simulteaneously - giving at least 6 hours running time (granted the second battery will cost you about 80 bucks)

Obviosuly i'm not well versed on what the iBook is actually made of, but I have used both the 4150 and the iBook, and the iBook was better made, but the difference wasn't that huge (and the DellX400 is better than either, but of course the powerbooks spank everyone flat)

Don't get me wrong I'm an Apple fan as much as the next guy, but I'm realistic enough to admit that Apple have fallen behind in raw performance terms, and quite badly at that. In teh last 18 months the PC platform has moved on enormously, whereas Macs have edged forward.

Huked on Fonick

Jan 12, 2003, 01:45 AM

eh all i know is that i read that intel made the p4 like a 4 cilinder Engine running at 10000 rpms where as the p3 is 8 cilinders running at 5000 rpms there the same speed but one has a much higher clock, thats where i got that from.............
ya i duno went to dell and click one 4150 and thats what came up with the clicked the one with the base price u mentioned but dells computers change minute to minute i did see one witha 32megs of VRAM but it cost like 1400 i think or something i duno, the dell sight is more confusing than my girlfriend.....eather way the apple with 640 megs of ram far outbeats the dells more powerful mem subsystem with only 256........ and the processors are about the same with a slight advantage going to the dell..... g3 sarah .13 micon 512k l2 vs p4 .13 with 512k L2

gooddog

Jan 12, 2003, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by NitroPye
I would think with the new base material and more compact design the 12" AlBooks would be more ruggadized then the 15" TiBooks I dont know about the comparison between the 12" ibook and the 12" AlBooks though

****************

You guessed better than I did :)

Turns out (as per Apple web site), the Little
Al actually DOES have rubber-mounted HD and is said to be "rugged".

Now, if they got the lids to close straight
without lop-sided fit or gull wing warp like
my new iBook has (HELP !) I will surely begin to stalk one for myself , on the next upgrade. I noticed that the Big Al has two latches instead of one --- there is hope. And the hinge on the Little Al seems a bit wider, so maybe it will be easier to center it at the factory.

---gooddog

Huked on Fonick

Jan 12, 2003, 01:51 AM

Just check Dell
4150 with 32megs of Vram
Cost $1575

Huked on Fonick

Jan 12, 2003, 01:53 AM

GoodDog Call Apple, and in its newer than a year send it back them and they will fix it good as new......

rickvanr

Jan 12, 2003, 01:54 AM

anyone know why they didnt include the 2x dvd burner in the 15 inch tibook when it came out a couple months ago? they're both an inch thick... did they just come out with a new drive? or is there more room in the Albook so it can run hotter or something?

Huked on Fonick

Jan 12, 2003, 02:19 AM

my guess would be both, and probably there waiting on volume production of the burner for the 17, thats why it ships in like 2 months.... but hey i duno

NitroPye

Jan 12, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by caboosemoose
yo regan,

Firstly i did say that I would rather not use M$ products, and I do prefer the apple platform (I use both PC's and Mac's), but anyone who has used XP extensively will be able to tell you that its actually pretty stable, probably on a par with OSX in most situations.

Secondly if this great new desktop advance is a higher clocked G4 then I don't want to know, that would suck. What I really want to see is a Mac based on either the new 64bit power pc chip, or the upcoming athlon x86 64bit chip. With either of these two chips, Apple would really putting itself ahead of the game once again.

Ick XP, ive used it a bit too but i got soo fed up with the problems i canned the dual boot and have been running nothing but linux for 6 months. I will NEVER go back. As much as i love linux ive used OSX a bit and I find it even better. Its UNIX, nothing to date beats unix. The ease and style of apple only adds to the package. Now when M$ plans on becoming practical and making an OS with featuers that some of us will acually use then I wont use it.

NitroPye

Jan 12, 2003, 04:09 PM

MacKid

Jan 12, 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
it's really a shame that they made the old airport incompatible with extreme at the hardware level--as in, i can't upgrade my powerbook to it. they're going to have to do something about that. someone will. it's so ironic how they tout it on that PR page with a bunch of smiling people using 15 inch powerbooks (because they are still the most prcatical for typical mobile usage while still being honking fast, heh), which will, according to apples tech info, never be able to utilize airport extreme.

of course, there is no apparent reason to care, for me. i mean, shoot, 54 Mbps still balks huge when compared to 100Mbps from my 100BaseTX. with 11 Mbps i am getting my full internet bandwidth, so i don't need extreme there. and then, i consider that whenever i want to do high speed LAN transfers, like a network backup, heck, that takes a long time on any connection, but plugging it in to my LAN increases the transfer speed by 10x. with airport extreme, we are talking still a 2x speed advantage on wired, so it's still behind. i can understand that Airport extreme is desirable, but when i think about it, it would be a waste for me even if i could get it, because i'd plug my laptop into my lan the only time i would see a benefit from AE.

The only reason you can't upgrade to AirPort Extreme's bandwidth is because the cards are a different shape altogether, and the old antennae don't support such a high reception rate.

NitroPye

Jan 12, 2003, 04:38 PM

pyrotoaster

Jan 12, 2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by newmanium

i haven't seen this brought up yet, but are the new powerbooks (preferably the 12") still compatible with the older airport cards? i've noticed that the new airport extreme cards have a different design to them and possibly a different interface. i'd hate to have my first $100 investment into aiport go to waste if i get a new powerbook.

802.11g is backwards compatable with 802.11b, so I don't see what your problem is.
The old and new base stations and the old and new cards work with each other.

shadowfax

Jan 12, 2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by MacKid

The only reason you can't upgrade to AirPort Extreme's bandwidth is because the cards are a different shape altogether, and the old antennae don't support such a high reception rate.

i'm sorry, i was well aware of that. i was talking about the issue on a much higher level than that, namely practicality. i wasn't talking about the technical issues, which don't interest me more than i have already read up on, which has already been discussed extensively in this thread.

Over Achiever

Jan 13, 2003, 04:14 PM

cr2sh

Jan 13, 2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by rickvanr
anyone know why they didnt include the 2x dvd burner in the 15 inch tibook when it came out a couple months ago? they're both an inch thick... did they just come out with a new drive? or is there more room in the Albook so it can run hotter or something?

Its the year of the laptop of cource... Desktop sales are lagging. To make up for the diminished sales of the desktops they introduce a line of awesome laptops... and then, a few months later, RE-introduce it with a superdrive, and then a few weeks later, RE-introduce it AGAIN with new screen sizes! (They're making up for lagging sales this way.) Apple figures they'll get Mac User's minds off the desktop, off the looming ppc970... hit them with laptops hard, get sales up..make as much money as possible off of laptops because no one is going to buy a desktop in the next 6months.

About September they'll hit us with news of the ppc970 and boost sales yet again. This is all a distraction technique.. but it is a fun one.

caboosemoose

Jan 13, 2003, 07:11 PM

If you are right then Apple won't be selling many desktops before the end of the year - I don't see how Apple can survive like this its very strange. I can't see the 17" powerbook selling in huge volumes, iMac sales have gone pretty bad, perhaps the 12" powerbook will sell pretty well - but surely thats not enough to support the company. Of course Jobs conveniently decided not to talk about apple's G4 tower sales in his speech, they haven't been great for a while. I suppose its the lower profile, high margin products like the iPod that are keeping Apple afloat, who knows.

MacKid

Jan 13, 2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax

i'm sorry, i was well aware of that. i was talking about the issue on a much higher level than that, namely practicality. i wasn't talking about the technical issues, which don't interest me more than i have already read up on, which has already been discussed extensively in this thread.

I hope this answers your question:

Yes, you will have to buy another AirPort card.:(

locovaca

Jan 13, 2003, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by NitroPye

Not to mention no type of PCMCIA is fast enough.

Bzzz. Read. (http://www.quatech.com/Application_Objects/FAQs/comm-over-pcmcia.htm) The maximum bandwidth of 802.11g (which will never be obtained, at best you'd get 75%, and that may even be unrealistic) works out to be 6.75 MB/sec (54 Mb/8)

cr2sh

Jan 13, 2003, 07:38 PM

The way I see it, this quarter will be saved with the sales of the next Powerbooks. Next quarter we will get new displays (to compliment our new laptop's spanning ability) and new iMac's. Then we get the new Pro-Desktops (970).. its pure speculation but it makes sense to me.

lmalave

Jan 13, 2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by caboosemoose
If you are right then Apple won't be selling many desktops before the end of the year - I don't see how Apple can survive like this its very strange. I can't see the 17" powerbook selling in huge volumes, iMac sales have gone pretty bad, perhaps the 12" powerbook will sell pretty well - but surely thats not enough to support the company. Of course Jobs conveniently decided not to talk about apple's G4 tower sales in his speech, they haven't been great for a while. I suppose its the lower profile, high margin products like the iPod that are keeping Apple afloat, who knows.

But don't forget the CPU upgrades that will also spur sales (among the Mac faithful if nothing else). Specifically, the PowerBooks being upgraded to 1GHz+ 7457s which will spur the upgrade of the iBook to 1GHz G3s. And also integrating Bluetooth into the iBook and 15" PowerBook. If they keep improving the iBook that could really be the cash cow. iBook sales were up 14% last fiscal year, and I know they had a surge after the November speed bump/price drop. As long as they keep enough distance between the PowerBook 12" and the iBook, I think they could sell a lot of both laptops.

And besides Bluetooth I DEFINITELY think that Apple will be upgrading all their lines to be Airport Extreme ready.

nighthawk

Jan 13, 2003, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by caboosemoose
If you are right then Apple won't be selling many desktops before the end of the year - I don't see how Apple can survive like this its very strange. I can't see the 17" powerbook selling in huge volumes, iMac sales have gone pretty bad, perhaps the 12" powerbook will sell pretty well - but surely thats not enough to support the company. Of course Jobs conveniently decided not to talk about apple's G4 tower sales in his speech, they haven't been great for a while. I suppose its the lower profile, high margin products like the iPod that are keeping Apple afloat, who knows.

1) The iPods are doing very very well (especially in Japan)
2) The $999 iBook is selling very very well
3) The Apple stores are performing better than any expected (with they claim 40% of sales are to first-time mac buyers)
4) Web sales are strong... by Apple doing it's own retail, more money stays in Apple's pockets
5) Software -- Final Cut Pro, WebObjects, DVD Studio Pro, Jaguar, and now Emagic Logic and Shake.
6) Third party software through the online store and retail chain -- a small percentage, but it counts.
7) Increased wooing of the Education market (Maine, etc...)
8) WWDC -- I am sure that there is a little money made here, but not a lot.

All this means that Apple is still very solid... even with poor sales with its desktop machines, Apple is still making money. The only other computer maker that is in the black is Dell.

When the IBM 970 is released, Apple will really shine.