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~Shard~
Jan 12, 2006, 07:46 AM
Not sure if this is the right place to post, but please take a look at the new petition over at:

http://new.petitiononline.com/MacBook/petition.html

Many thanks

Meh, who really needs dual layer burners and their pricey media other than to illegally burn movies? :p ;) :D

Sunrunner
Jan 12, 2006, 07:52 AM
I believe they'll come out (although not called iBooks) when Intel Makes their Core Solo chip available. Which should mean within a couple months, as I understand it.

Since Core Solo was always expected to arrive later than Core Duo, I've never understood the rumor mill's insistence (at times) that iBooks would come first. It always made more sense that the PowerBook would go first.

We don't know for a fact that Apple intends to use Core Solo, but it's pretty logical.


The new iBook will be called the MacBook. Thats why Apple put the 'pro' behind this release. The iBook will have the same name, just without the extra three letters.

Sunrunner
Jan 12, 2006, 07:54 AM
Of course, the problem with this reasoning is that it overlooks the fact that Apple is embracing HD format, yet now they've handcuffed themselves.

Oh, and have you tried using any of the iApps with an external drive? They won't freakin' let you!


They do now, the new iLife set can use external drives.

Counter
Jan 12, 2006, 07:55 AM
Meh, who really needs dual layer burners and their pricey media other than to illegally burn movies? :p ;) :D

Who needs expensive blu-ray drives and ultra pricey media when you can just use 5 standard dvd's?

;)

kenstee
Jan 12, 2006, 08:01 AM
Great blog piece from Unsanity about the new MacBook Pro (Lost in Transition: Overcane of Antflower Milk) . Rosyna takes Apple to task over some of the glaring omissions in the PowerBook successor that seem to have been glossed over in the halo-effect of Macworld.

http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php

Bottom line, many posters on this forum are not dreaming or being overly negative about the new MacBook. Apple rushed this one out a bit too fast and it shows.

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 08:21 AM
:mad: :( :confused: <---( pouting) I just want to know when the ibooks are being released. in all seriousness can someone tell me when they might come out. I need one, I was foolish and sold my G4 15" PB too early and need one for school. Think secret says that they maybe announced as early as next month but their crystal ball has been very clouded lately. I also heard WWDC, but when is WWDC? thanks for those who listend now im gonna go cry as i am forced to use this crappy windows machine for anothe few months.My guess would be around WWDC time as well. That is because the new iBook (MacBook sans "Pro"?) will be getting the Intel Core Solo chips, which are due out this spring.

Really, I expected it much earlier.. but I guess there main focus was probably the macbook just to get it on the market, your probably right it wont be out for a while... unfortunatly :( Im waiting on it I think.

How do you think the macbook will affect the price of the used PB's ? or will it at all?

I was trying to tell everyone on these boards until I was blue in the face, that the PowerBooks would be the first to get the switch. This is because

1) The PowerBook needed an updated processor in it BADLY.
2) The Core Duo is bleeding edge technology, and designed specifically for high-end laptops and portables.
3) Bleeding edge always is $$$$. There is no way that they could get this technology this early on into an iBook type market and expect to pay iBook prices.

People on these boards refuted logic with the "Pros are expecting their PPC intensive applications to run well, so Rosetta is unacceptable to them... etc. etc." While there is some truth to that, it is largely countered with the HUGE performance increase brought to you by Core Duo. Intel has also been able to shake it's Pentium 4 deamons with this realease, which is important for the company's image.

Not to say "Told you so" about the PowerBooks, but there it is. There are others on the boards that knew what was up. SiliconAddict and Peace are just some of the guys that had an idea of this. We're the PowerBook "whiners" and we're no longer whining! Don't worry, the intel iBook will come soon enough.

P.S. I think that used Powerbooks will plummet in value thanks to the MacBook, but Apple will still overcharge for the G4 PowerBooks. That's just to be expected.

devman
Jan 12, 2006, 08:21 AM
Great blog piece from Unsanity about the new MacBook Pro (Lost in Transition: Overcane of Antflower Milk) . Rosyna takes Apple to task over some of the glaring omissions in the PowerBook successor that seem to have been glossed over in the halo-effect of Macworld.

http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php

Bottom line, many posters on this forum are not dreaming or being overly negative about the new MacBook. Apple rushed this one out a bit too fast and it shows.

I dunno bub. Seems to be an awful lots of newbies making some of these posts...

FWIW I think that unsanity article is a steaming pile of excrement.

odedia
Jan 12, 2006, 08:24 AM
Does anyone here knows if there was ever such a long thread here in macrumors? being a newbie, I can't tell. But over 1000 posts already... that's impressive.

kenstee
Jan 12, 2006, 08:26 AM
I dunno bub. Seems to be an awful lots of newbies making some of these posts...

FWIW I think that unsanity article is a steaming pile of excrement.

The truth sometimes stinks!

devman
Jan 12, 2006, 08:26 AM
Meh, who really needs dual layer burners and their pricey media other than to illegally burn movies? :p ;) :D

I'm with ya. A few months ago I looked at upgrading or adding a DL burner to my powermac but the price of the media is way out there.

BTW - it would be handy for bigger single disc backups - not just your other reason :) But I ditched the idea due to the cost of the media and the fact that SL discs for backups don't cause me enough pain.

sphereboy
Jan 12, 2006, 08:33 AM
One thing i hope the MacBook improves is WiFi signal strength. My current Powerbook compared to my friends Dell machine side by side picks up about 1/3 of what the Dell picks up. I mean there were times he would pick up about 12 wireless signals and i'd only get 1 or 2.

That's my biggest gripe about my PowerBook. Other than that, I don't really need a Core Duo to surf the net. I already have a workstation to do actual Pro work on, and the PowerBook comes through when i need to work on something on the road.

For all those that ordered the MacBook, thank you for being one of the first. Thank you for helping them make it better. Thanks for being a tester. Without you, who?

Enjoy your new toy! I'm sure it will be solid (with a few kinks here and there)

lozion
Jan 12, 2006, 08:38 AM
Hello to all,
Been reading here since last fall but this is my first post.
Although, I havent read the whole 41 pages (:eek: ) of this thread,
I believe nobody mentioned anything about this interesting tidbit:

Correct me if I'm wrong but the MacBook Pro (How' bout ProBook...doesnt sound better?) is the first ever mac notebook to sport this:

SERIAL ata hard disk drive. According to my research it is alot faster then P(arallel) ata drives:

http://compreviews.about.com/od/storage/l/aaSerialATA.htm

''This allows for serial transmission methods to run at much higher speeds than the equivalent parallel methods. In the case of the first Serial ATA standard, the clock runs at 1500 MHz compared to a clock rate of 50 MHz of the ATA/100 standard.''

That coupled with 100 meg/7200 rpm spindle speed on BTO models makes for an awesome machine that both audio and video pros can use without having to go external, somewhat reducing the pain of having the firewire 800 gone the way of the zip drives...

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 08:41 AM
Again the same sort of BS around here...

Apple has NEVER had to differentiate from PCs in terms of hardware. In fact, Apple, with rare exceptions, was always behind one PC brand or another in terms of cutting-edge features or MOBOs. It's funny that now, when Apple has access to PCIe, latest GPUs and so on, you start bashing the company again. That's true that Apple has always been slightly behind in the hardware department, but I think that their attention to every detail and quality form factor helps them out a lot in this aspect. I think it's fantastic that Apple has PCIe, SATA Hard Drives, ATi Mobility Radeon X1600, and most importantly the Core Duo! These new laptops are going to be outstanding!

The PowerPC chip was never the main factor behind the choice for Macs. It's about the software, DUDE. It's about having access to the best OS ever, Mac OS X. It's about having iLife. It's about having NO viruses and malware. Agreed, but the form factor and design has been just as important to many. And we'll see just how long OS X can hold off on viruses and malware. The double edged sword of gaining back market share is that you're also getting the attention of annoying/illegal malware marketing etc. UNIX based OSes are inharently safe to such things, but there are ways to make viruses for it. There are roughly (9?) Linux viruses in existance, and we may see one for OS X sometime down the road...

The fact that Apple uses Intel chips changes NOTHING in that paradigm; and the price of a single chip is just ONE component of the price charged for a product. Yup.

I have used Acers at work and they SUCK, SUCK HARD. You may mention a thousand specs (as any other PC user out there), and they will not surpass Mac hardware and OS X stability and reliability...regardless of Motorola, IBM or Intel chips. Software stability and user friendliness and form factor are the only things seperating the Core Duo Acers from the MacBook Pro. It's worth it for some, other's it's not. Let's move along.

Acer has Winblows. Acer has crappy quality. No way in hell you should be comparing Acer with Apple...that's heresy. Your statement is the only thing that sounds like heresy to me. Cleaver renaming of Windows and PCs to "cute" pet names like Winblows, PeeCees etc. is idiotic. There is nothing wrong with Acer, they make perfectly good laptops.

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 08:46 AM
I'm with ya. A few months ago I looked at upgrading or adding a DL burner to my powermac but the price of the media is way out there.

BTW - it would be handy for bigger single disc backups - not just your other reason :) But I ditched the idea due to the cost of the media and the fact that SL discs for backups don't cause me enough pain.Expect the price of DL DVDs to bottom out by the end of this year, when Blu-ray Discs and HD-DVD make their way to the recordable optical media circuit. They are already giving away CD-Rs, and single layer DVDs are very cheap as well. If anything, I expect the next Rev of MacBook Pros to have DL DVD burners, and at least a BD-ROM so that you can read Blu-ray discs. :D

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 08:48 AM
Hello to all,
Been reading here since last fall but this is my first post.
Although, I havent read the whole 41 pages (:eek: ) of this thread,
I believe nobody mentioned anything about this interesting tidbit:

Correct me if I'm wrong but the MacBook Pro (How' bout ProBook...doesnt sound better?) is the first ever mac notebook to sport this:

SERIAL ata hard disk drive. According to my research it is alot faster then P(arallel) ata drives:

http://compreviews.about.com/od/storage/l/aaSerialATA.htm

''This allows for serial transmission methods to run at much higher speeds than the equivalent parallel methods. In the case of the first Serial ATA standard, the clock runs at 1500 MHz compared to a clock rate of 50 MHz of the ATA/100 standard.''

That coupled with 100 meg/7200 rpm spindle speed on BTO models makes for an awesome machine that both audio and video pros can use without having to go external, somewhat reducing the pain of having the firewire 800 gone the way of the zip drives...
Yes. Yes it does. Apple's Pro notebook line has finally cought up and pulled ahead fellow PC notebooks in all hardware categories. You gotta love it. :cool:

P.S. SATA Hard Drives have been available for a long time, just not on the Mac laptops until now. They used to use the crappy IDE Hard Drives, or PATA if you prefer.

Photorun
Jan 12, 2006, 08:58 AM
Your statement is the only thing that sounds like heresy to me. Cleaver renaming of Windows and PCs to "cute" pet names like Winblows, PeeCees etc. is idiotic. There is nothing wrong with Acer, they make perfectly good laptops.

Actually my department has two Acers and one has a random shut down mode feature and the other's case is shoddy and lines up pretty badly so the lid closes and it warps the entire body. Acer quality is bad, and worse like the guy said, it runs Windoze and it's a craptacular peecee. Don't like cutesy names? Deal with in Ranball!

devman
Jan 12, 2006, 08:58 AM
Hello to all,
Been reading here since last fall but this is my first post.
Although, I havent read the whole 41 pages (:eek: ) of this thread,
I believe nobody mentioned anything about this interesting tidbit:

Correct me if I'm wrong but the MacBook Pro (How' bout ProBook...doesnt sound better?) is the first ever mac notebook to sport this:

SERIAL ata hard disk drive. According to my research it is alot faster then P(arallel) ata drives:

http://compreviews.about.com/od/storage/l/aaSerialATA.htm

''This allows for serial transmission methods to run at much higher speeds than the equivalent parallel methods. In the case of the first Serial ATA standard, the clock runs at 1500 MHz compared to a clock rate of 50 MHz of the ATA/100 standard.''

That coupled with 100 meg/7200 rpm spindle speed on BTO models makes for an awesome machine that both audio and video pros can use without having to go external, somewhat reducing the pain of having the firewire 800 gone the way of the zip drives...

Hi lozion, great first post! That's a nice tidbit about SATA. Also I read a quote somewhere (sorry don't remember where - on of the hundreds of articles I skimmed through in netnewswire) that the expresscard slot in the Macbook Pro has enough grunt to run two FW800 ports off it.

solaris
Jan 12, 2006, 09:00 AM
The main problem with this new MacBook Pro is that Apple removed features compared to the latest PowerBook G4. Afterall this is a Pro machine, for users who use it to the full lenght.
* Replaced 8x DL SuperDrive with a 4x SL SuperDrive.
* Removed Firewire 800.
* Lower screen resolution.
* Removed S-video out
* Removed modem
* Undocumented power usage and battery time.

Sure hope the next revision make up for all this!

Synapple
Jan 12, 2006, 09:04 AM
...the software has to be a huge draw to make up for it.

With the upgrades I would need to go Intel Mac, it's a lot cheaper for me to go back to Windows.

Quality of hardware aside (which I personally think is not debatable in the case of Apple), I do not feel uncomfortable in paying a premium for running Mac Os X and the Apple software.

OTOH I will upgrade to Intel when I feel the need to. Not right now.

Photorun
Jan 12, 2006, 09:09 AM
I'm with the guy above. The fact Apple didn't use the faster chips like Acer, unless Acer gave Intel gobs of dough/exclusive deal, proves again how dumb and cheap Apple is. Cheap mofos interested in maximum profits. Apple is putting in the 1.83 and slower Yonah chips because they can buy lots of them wayyy cheaper than the 2.13/2.0, possibly hundreds cheaper, and basically screw the Apple adopters of the Macbooks. Typical Apple behavior here... and STUPID at that. That worked well with the PPC processors, well, sorta well, during the clone years (90s) they were constantly coming out with slower chips than the clones, PowerComputing and Motorola machines were usually quite a few gigahertz ahead, THAT'S why they were cannabalizing Apple sales, that and of course they were cheaper and offered more bang for the buck.

To wit: Apple always gives less bang for the buck and overinflates their prices and gouges their consumers. They have since the Apple Classic (which was 1/2 all profit) and always will.

Of course now Apple is stuck looking stupid (or more stupid rather) because they're using the same chips as the peecee brethren and, if they want to look competetive, to the MHz myth anyways, they're going to need to perhaps put the fastest chips they can get. This of course will make Apple whine and gnash teeth because their beloved product markup and profit margins may get tighter, oh no, heaven forbid that!!!

I'm sure they can make up for this by further neutering their video cards like they've done for years like how peecees are coming with 512 MB cards for a full year while Apple was putting in 64 and 128, maybe Apple can go back to 32 MB cards so they can keep their precious exhorbidant markups.

Jerks!!!

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2006, 09:11 AM
Great blog piece from Unsanity about the new MacBook Pro (Lost in Transition: Overcane of Antflower Milk) . Rosyna takes Apple to task over some of the glaring omissions in the PowerBook successor that seem to have been glossed over in the halo-effect of Macworld.

http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php

Bottom line, many posters on this forum are not dreaming or being overly negative about the new MacBook. Apple rushed this one out a bit too fast and it shows.

Bitching: Its what's for dinner, breakfast, lunch, brunch, snacks, etc. The nit picking that is being done is unreal. Possibly even surreal. Seriously. Dell puts out a craptastic update you don't see 8 bagillion posts about it online. Apple puts out an update, that it’s been criticized forever for not doing, and all people do is bitch. Are there some features missing? Sure. Take the link above. Bitching about having an 85 vs. the old 65 watt AC adapters? To quote the author: OMGWTF?
The only key thing missing is the DL burner and I suspect it’s because there are probably no laptop sized DL DVD-RW SATA burners on the market. I guess Apple could have make a cheap *** system and mixed EIDE in with SATA but they probably decided it’s better to move the entire system to SATA. In no way shape or form am I going to fault them for that. Then there is FW800. This can and will be available via ExpressCard in probably less then 6 months. The truth is there are only a handful of devices that REALLY take advantage of FW800. It’s not as if FW400 is slow either.
Sounds like people are bitching for the sake of bitching. Apple gave you a faster system. **** already or at the very least trim the complaints down to a reasonable level: DL DVD-RW is really the only legit complaint in the list. Crap if Apple hadn’t announced this thing people would be bitching about that as well.

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2006, 09:13 AM
I'm with the guy above. The fact Apple didn't use the faster chips like Acer, unless Acer gave Intel gobs of dough/exclusive deal, proves again how dumb and cheap Apple is. Cheap mofos interested in maximum profits.


Did it ever occur to you that Apple may have been interested in better battery life then that .17Mhz speed bump? :rolleyes: Let me guess. You also drive a hummer too? This isn't fracking pissing contest which I think is where the majority of complaints is coming from. WAHHHHH! Windows systems have a bigger dick then we do. WAHHH

merkhet
Jan 12, 2006, 09:14 AM
The only thing I'm unhappy about on this machine is the fact that they dropped DL burning -- but someone posted earlier a link to a company (MCE?) that might release a DL-drive upgrade, so I'm not too worried about that.

About the lowered resolution, I don't mean to bring up the horizontal lines issue in the previous Powerbooks, but perhaps it's a response to that?

lozion
Jan 12, 2006, 09:15 AM
Hi lozion, great first post! That's a nice tidbit about SATA. Also I read a quote somewhere (sorry don't remember where - on of the hundreds of articles I skimmed through in netnewswire) that the expresscard slot in the Macbook Pro has enough grunt to run two FW800 ports off it.


Thanks! Yes the new PCI/e expresscard bridge is also a great feature. I'm sure we will see a slew of new products this year like pci/e audio interfaces, external DSP processing, allowing native systems to cut down on latencies... This is very exciting for the audio world!

Now get all those pro apps universal fast...

Frobozz
Jan 12, 2006, 09:15 AM
No - I want the MacBook to be comparable (or better) in price with 'premium' Windows laptops.

The Acer - with it's carbon fibre casing - sort of fits into the 'premium' end (although not quite the brand name), but packs a hell of a lot more hardware in for the same price.

The key distinction being the typical problem of productivity on a WinXP computer. They don't have iLife or OS X, for starters. But even assuming you want to isolate just hardware features, the Acer really isn't so much better to make me want that (assuming it could run OS X.)

There's always going to be people making moutains out of molehills. The rest of us will be enjoying our hardware.

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 09:16 AM
Don't like cutesy names? Deal with in Ranball!Real cute, what are you like 12?

sphereboy
Jan 12, 2006, 09:16 AM
Come on now. Every one here seems to accept what Apple does. You guys honestly don't think they could have done a better job? I mean Acer has a better laptop for god's sake. Damn.

devman
Jan 12, 2006, 09:17 AM
Bitching: Its what's for dinner, breakfast, lunch, brunch, snacks, etc. The nit picking that is being done is unreal. Possibly even surreal. Seriously. Dell puts out a craptastic update you don't see 8 bagillion posts about it online. Apple puts out an update, that it’s been criticized forever for not doing, and all people do is bitch. Are there some features missing? Sure. Take the link above. Bitching about having an 85 vs. the old 65 watt AC adapters? To quote the author: OMGWTF?
The only key thing missing is the DL burner and I suspect it’s because there are probably no laptop sized DL DVD-RW SATA burners on the market. I guess Apple could have make a cheap *** system and mixed EIDE in with SATA but they probably decided it’s better to move the entire system to SATA. In no way shape or form am I going to fault them for that. Then there is FW800. This can and will be available via ExpressCard in probably less then 6 months. The truth is there are only a handful of devices that REALLY take advantage of FW800. It’s not as if FW400 is slow either.
Sounds like people are bitching for the sake of bitching. Apple gave you a faster system. **** already or at the very least trim the complaints down to a reasonable level: DL DVD-RW is really the only legit complaint in the list. Crap if Apple hadn’t announced this thing people would be bitching about that as well.

http://www.xterasys.com/e94b.htm

merkhet
Jan 12, 2006, 09:20 AM
I'm with the guy above. The fact Apple didn't use the faster chips like Acer, unless Acer gave Intel gobs of dough/exclusive deal, proves again how dumb and cheap Apple is. Cheap mofos interested in maximum profits.

...

To wit: Apple always gives less bang for the buck and overinflates their prices and gouges their consumers. They have since the Apple Classic (which was 1/2 all profit) and always will.


I don't understand what it is you've written here. Aren't all computer manufacturers interested in profit? Are there some non-profit computer companies out there in the ether somewhere?

Also, I'm not sure how Apple "gouges" their customers. Generally, when we talk about "gouging" someone, we're talking about some sort of compulsion or dependency. I'm not sure where that fits in here. People aren't "dependent" on Apple laptops in any real sense. (All jokes of not being able to live without your current Powerbooks aside)

The MacBook Pro is a product that is being sold at a pre-determined price. People will either buy the laptop or not. Those who have bought the laptop have determined that to them, it is worth the listed price, regardless of whether or not they gripe about having paid a "premium" (read: being gouged) for Apple goods. People who don't buy the product also cannot have been "gouged" in any sense because they didn't fork over any money.

So I have to say, I'm a bit confused.

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2006, 09:22 AM
http://www.xterasys.com/e94b.htm

And there we go. The only question I have is does it have OS X x86 drivers? I'm doubting it.

lozion
Jan 12, 2006, 09:26 AM
And there we go. The only question I have is does it have OS X x86 drivers? I'm doubting it.


no go. Its a 54 and not 34 expresscard. But they will come soon enough...

DavoMrMac
Jan 12, 2006, 09:27 AM
One thing i hope the MacBook improves is WiFi signal strength. My current Powerbook compared to my friends Dell machine side by side picks up about 1/3 of what the Dell picks up. I mean there were times he would pick up about 12 wireless signals and i'd only get 1 or 2.


Hello Sphereboy

I just changed to a Linksys wireless router (from a Netgear DG814) and my signal improved by two bars all over my house.

Food for thought.

devman
Jan 12, 2006, 09:28 AM
And there we go. The only question I have is does it have OS X x86 drivers? I'm doubting it.

From their specs page:

"Supported OS
Windows 98SE/ME/2000/XP
Mac OS 8.6 or above (including OS X and beyong)"

(sic)

http://www.xterasys.com/e94b_specifications.htm

Edit: oh well, lozion is right above...

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2006, 09:30 AM
From their specs page:

"Supported OS
Windows 98SE/ME/2000/XP
Mac OS 8.6 or above (including OS X and beyong)"

(sic)

http://www.xterasys.com/e94b_specifications.htm

those drivers are probably built under the PPC architecture not the new x86 one. It’s similar to how you can't simply drop video drivers from OS X PPC onto the new x86.



no go. Its a 54 and not 34 expresscard. But they will come soon enough...


DOH! I thought that card looked a bit large. :P

~Shard~
Jan 12, 2006, 09:33 AM
Who needs expensive blu-ray drives and ultra pricey media when you can just use 5 standard dvd's?

;)

Now that would just be silly. ;)

Oh, and "5 standard dvd's" what? What belonging to the DVD are you referring to with your possessive use in that sentence? :p

I'm with ya. A few months ago I looked at upgrading or adding a DL burner to my powermac but the price of the media is way out there.

BTW - it would be handy for bigger single disc backups - not just your other reason But I ditched the idea due to the cost of the media and the fact that SL discs for backups don't cause me enough pain.

Yep, I agree. I'll be bypassing DL for Blu Ray, and that won't even be until later this year when prices become more reasonable. For now, SL works just fine for me. :cool:

DVK916
Jan 12, 2006, 09:43 AM
Did it ever occur to you that Apple may have been interested in better battery life then that .17Mhz speed bump? :rolleyes: Let me guess. You also drive a hummer too? This isn't fracking pissing contest which I think is where the majority of complaints is coming from. WAHHHHH! Windows systems have a bigger dick then we do. WAHHH

Actually the higher mhz don't use more power. The 2.8 Ghz Sossaman/Yonah which is same core as the duo core uses 31 watt/hour just like the other Duo Cores.

Frobozz
Jan 12, 2006, 09:43 AM
Great blog piece from Unsanity about the new MacBook Pro (Lost in Transition: Overcane of Antflower Milk) . Rosyna takes Apple to task over some of the glaring omissions in the PowerBook successor that seem to have been glossed over in the halo-effect of Macworld.

http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php

Bottom line, many posters on this forum are not dreaming or being overly negative about the new MacBook. Apple rushed this one out a bit too fast and it shows.

I have a news flash for the nay-sayers. They only rushed it out too fast if people don't buy them. Period.

People are buying them. Their success will, ofcourse, be determined a couple months from now. It's odd that people are upset about a couple points and they gloss over all the *major advantages.* It's insanity to me, but I'll let you have your point of view. You don't want one. That's fine. For me, it fits all of my criteria and I plopped down the cash for one.

When the G5 came out I didn't buy one. Why? Because of factors that had little to do with their power or features. Although people griped about a lack of this or that, it was about portability to me. So, I understand criticism on the part of people who this doesn't meet their needs ... but my feeling is that there's 1% of you out there and you're all in one forum. I feel like it's a skewed version of reality.

I just read the unsanity article and this guy doesn't "get it" at all. It's unbelievable. I guess he's just ranting but most of the points he says are negatives are positives to me. Oh well.

cybermiguel
Jan 12, 2006, 09:51 AM
Hi.

I've been reading this forum for quite some time, but this is the first time that I post here.

I'm kinda dissapointed with you all.... I mean....do you even know how the PC architecture is?????


Guys...I don't have a Mac symply because I don't have the money to buy one, but that does not mean that I don't know one...I have to work with them at the university and I think it's a great platform.

Now, getting to the point.... Intel offers lower consumption CPUs,, but they are underpowered for managing a complex task such as running OS X and emulating the PPC architecture. Granted, they have a battery life that makes their competitors shame on theirselfs....

Second...design. Do you want a slimmer MacBook? granted...but...you will have to loose Firewire 400 and 800, because they are too tall to fit on a slim notebook. Do you want a Superdrive? no sir... DVD drives are too tall to fit on a slim notebook. So...what does it have then?? Just USB2, PC Card Slot and Wi-fi...no optical drive at all. Are you willing to loose all that just to get a thinner laptop? I don't.

Third. NO Dual-Layer DVD Drive? BIG mistake, Apple.

If you want a resistant laptop...get a roughed notebook...just plain and simple. Apple laptops have style....if durability comes with the style (as with the aluminum case), the better the laptop is.

FW800...please.... does anyone uses it????? does it have a REAL use right now?

Like one guy said before, the top bitrate for a codec is 100mbit per second and that is 4 times slower than the FW400 is capable of. Granted, there could be hard drives that require the FW800 port, but... did you know that the hard drive speed DOES NOT VARIES OR DEPEND FROM THE HARD DRIVE BUS?

The hard drive speed mainly depends on the spin speed, (the RPMs), the access time (the time that the magnet gets to the cylynder or block and is measured in ms) and the amount of cache memory that it has.

If you buy a 5400 RPM hard drive with 2mb of buffer, it's practically THE SAME connecting it to a FW400 or FW800 port...the drive will work at the same speed. Different is the story if you connect an external S-ATA drive to an external S-ATA port...the hard drive will scream in speed (obviously if we are talking about a 10,000 rpm hard drive with 8mb buffer).

Now...talking about the bios....all the Intel Macs WILL NOT BE USING BIOS!!!!!... They will be using EFI, so stop having that fear.

Battery life?? It will be the same as the 15 inch PowerBook...maybe a bit better, because of the battery structure (lithium polymer cells are lighter and store more energy).

Now, if you say that the features found in the MacBook pro are little...let me tell you sommething: I know about PC architecture. I've built my own computer and if there is somthing that is a troublemaker is the cooling system and the power supply. Do you know how many watts does an ATi Radeon x1600 consumes? If you don't, then shut the **** up, because they are power-hungry...in fact, the whole graphics system will eat your battery like when homer simpson eats a donut...yeah, that fast. Do you know how to cool a x1600 chip? in fact, it needs a huge heatsink (well...it's "normal" for a desktop PC) and putting it in a VERY small package such as the MacBook is...man..THAT's engeneering!!.

Now, going back to FW800...there was a point that someone before noted it: Intel IS NOT going to design a new chipset just for Apple. Right now, Intel DOES NOT have FW in their chips, but it will, since Apple is with them, but...forget about being the only ones with FW800. If Intel implements FW800 in its new chipsets, ALL PC manufacturers and motherboard manufacturers will have access to that technology. That's good and bad. It's good because it will be an standard just as FW400 is, but it will no longer be "apple-only".

By the way, I have a 2 year old Pentium 4 (Northwood core, 2.0 Ghz with 512k L2 cache and SSE2) and it screams in speed with Mac OS X (yeah, I've managed to get it into my PC) compared to how it goes with Windows XP. I only hope that the 10.4.4 release will be cracked shortly. I know I will loose speed emulating SSE3 and then emulating PPC, but it's all worth if I have that beautiful OS on my machine. In fact, I'm writing this post from Safary x86. ^^

Regards.

Miguel


PS: sorry for my english. there's been a while that i don't practice it.

Frobozz
Jan 12, 2006, 09:54 AM
I wanted to say one last thing about the MacBook Pro ... I fully expect it to take 6 months before this product can run everything at full speed and the hiccups are all ironed out. I'm okay with that. I has Mac OS X beta the day it was out, too. I'm the kind of guy who won't be bothered by this, but I'd understand if people wouldn't want to move forward just yet. I'm a tech-whore.

Frobozz
Jan 12, 2006, 09:59 AM
Hi.

I've been reading this forum for quite some time, but this is the first time that I post here.

I'm kinda dissapointed with you all.... I mean....do you even know how the PC architecture is?????


Welcome to the forums. This was a good first post.

Some of us who have been here a couple years are seeing a lot of new people come on. This is good news. There was a day that you'd be loosing long time people left and right. Those days are over!

Rivix
Jan 12, 2006, 10:10 AM
The main problem with this new MacBook Pro is that Apple removed features compared to the latest PowerBook G4. Afterall this is a Pro machine, for users who use it to the full lenght.
* Replaced 8x DL SuperDrive with a 4x SL SuperDrive.
* Removed Firewire 800.
* Lower screen resolution.
* Removed S-video out
* Removed modem
* Undocumented power usage and battery time.

Sure hope the next revision make up for all this!

Really? Thats weird... :confused:

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 10:13 AM
I know that this is the "brightest" display that Apple has ever released in a laptop, compariable to the Apple Cinema Displays... but does anybody know that actual contrast ratio of the display in the new MacBook Pros?

"See brighter whites and darker blacks" isn't really doing it for me. I need a number. Like my Samsung 910T has a contrast ratio of 800:1. There that wasn't so hard. Apple what's your freaking contrast ratio? While we're at it, does anybody know the response time too?

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 10:14 AM
Really? Thats weird... :confused:Attribute to the integrated iSight. Actually, now it's a true 16:9 aspect ratio I think. :cool:

EDIT: ok I lied. i'm a little slow at math.

MacBook Pro (1440 x 900) is a 1.6:1 ratio
PowerBook 15" (1440 x 960) is a 1.5:1 ratio
PowerBook 17" (1680 x 1050) is a 1.6:1 ratio
HDTV (1920 x 1080) is a 1.78:1 ratio

** It would be nice if the 15" MacBook Pro had a resolution as high as the 17" Powerbook.

whooleytoo
Jan 12, 2006, 10:19 AM
In keeping with Apple's new policy of ever more vague benchmarks ("Performances per Watt" anyone?):

Like my Samsung 910T has a contrast ratio of 800:1. There that wasn't so hard. Apple what's your freaking contrast ratio?


"Lots"!


While we're at it, does anybody know the response time too?

"Best ever"!

;)

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 10:22 AM
In keeping with Apple's new policy of ever more vague benchmarks ("Performances per Watt" anyone?):



"Lots"!



"Best ever"!

;)lmao thanks "Steve" :rolleyes:

gwangung
Jan 12, 2006, 11:13 AM
Thanks! Yes the new PCI/e expresscard bridge is also a great feature. I'm sure we will see a slew of new products this year like pci/e audio interfaces, external DSP processing, allowing native systems to cut down on latencies... This is very exciting for the audio world!

Now get all those pro apps universal fast...

Hm. Aren't the new hard drive and the expresscard going to have a lot greater impact on speed and "snappiness" than people think, since so much of the system relies on swapping to disk? And wouldn't that be a good tradeoff for some of the other losses to the system?

Counter
Jan 12, 2006, 11:16 AM
Now that would just be silly. ;)

Oh, and "5 standard dvd's" what? What belonging to the DVD are you referring to with your possessive use in that sentence? :p


Erm...bananas?

Data of course. :p

Surreal
Jan 12, 2006, 11:40 AM
...
That coupled with 100 meg/7200 rpm spindle speed on BTO models makes for an awesome machine that both audio and video pros can use without having to go external, somewhat reducing the pain of having the firewire 800 gone the way of the zip drives...

am i wrong in thinking that setting the scratch disk as a different drive than the drive protools (or final cut or cubase etc) is on is the best bet so long as the speed of the drives is comparable. and aside from speed it is better for stability...no?

in other words, regardless of the speed of the internal drive, external is the first choice for pro apps


o and lozion...your speculation about new audio interface cards is exactrly why i dont want to HAVE to use the slot for FW800 ... we'll see though.

ender78
Jan 12, 2006, 11:49 AM
You’ll get a moderate performance boost. Is it worth $100 though? No idea. www.barefeats.com did a few benchmarks of 5400 vs. 7200 RPM drives. Some of the 'marks showed fairly significant performance boosts. Some didn't. IMHO if 100GB is good enough for you I’d go for it. Personally? I’m waiting for the 160GB 7200 RPM drives to ship. I’ll upgrade then. :D


Here is a review of the drive that is likely in the Macbook [Seagate Momentus 7200.1] .Can anyone confirm on the machines at MacWorld ?

http://www.storagereview.com/articles/200511/notebook_1.html

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2006, 12:16 PM
On a small sidenote does anyone else think Apple's *vomits a little bit* MacBook Pro Site Sucks? (http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/intelcoreduo.html)

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38609&stc=1&d=1137089631

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38610&stc=1&d=1137089638

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38611&stc=1&d=1137089647

Note that I'm using FireFox 1.0.4 but still. This IMHO shouldn't be happening.
Sure it looks teh sexy but I've seen better sites designed by teenagers. :rolleyes:

bigbossbmb
Jan 12, 2006, 12:22 PM
Who needs expensive blu-ray drives and ultra pricey media when you can just use 5 standard dvd's?

;)

Um...how about HD content! ;)

Blu-Ray-ROM would be sweet (and possible/affordable by the end of the year), but DL DVD burners aren't really that necessary until the media comes down... i mean DL's low price is $1.72/per on Newegg and SL's are ~$.35 thats almost 5x the price for 2x storage

CalfCanuck
Jan 12, 2006, 12:39 PM
Hm. Aren't the new hard drive and the expresscard going to have a lot greater impact on speed and "snappiness" than people think, since so much of the system relies on swapping to disk? And wouldn't that be a good tradeoff for some of the other losses to the system?
Yeah, I wrote about the Expresscard 15 pages ago but most people aren't really reading the entire thread! And of course the entire motherboard is built around this new, faster architecture...

A lot of people here don't get that hard drive technology is also on the move, and that the "flexibility" of the Expresscard will allow us both to access older FW technologies as well as access newer serial HD setups. The Expresscard interface is allows 2.5 Gigabits (over 300 MB) per second, so there should be plenty of room to grow.

"The ExpressCard product specification was developed as the next-generation PC card by the PCMCIA standards organization. ExpressCard products will be compatible with advanced serial bus technologies including USB and PCI Express. The new ExpressCard products will be available in two standard card sizes. Express Card 34 and Express Card 54 will both fit into a universal slot with one common connector size. The new specification provides the proven reliability and ease of use of the PC Card form factor while offering faster performance and ease of use.

The connector is a "beam-on-blade" design that provides low cost and reliable performance. The interconnection system includes a 26-position card connector and a surface mount, 26-position right angle host connector. The connector system is designed for 10,000 mating cycle durability on the card and 5,000 cycles on the host. Tyco Electronics contributed both mechanical and electrical engineering input during the development phase of the new specification. The connectors are compliant to the current specification Revision 1.0 of the Express Card Standard. The Express Card host interface supports a PCI Express single lane (x1) operating at 2.5 Gigabits/second as defined by the PCI Express Base Specification and low, full, and high-speed USB as defined by the USB 2.0 Specification.

Applications for the new ExpressCard products include wireless and wired communications cards, rotating and solid state storage devices, optical and magnetic micro drives, and a variety of I/O, security, and flash memory cards."

Quote source: http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodnews.asp?ID=538

DVK916
Jan 12, 2006, 12:55 PM
It is foolish to buy the intel mac now when in September Merom will be released.

ailleur
Jan 12, 2006, 12:56 PM
Theres always something better coming in 6 months.

mongoos150
Jan 12, 2006, 01:05 PM
On a small sidenote does anyone else think Apple's *vomits a little bit* MacBook Pro Site Sucks? (http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/intelcoreduo.html)

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38609&stc=1&d=1137089631

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38610&stc=1&d=1137089638

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38611&stc=1&d=1137089647

Note that I'm using FireFox 1.0.4 but still. This IMHO shouldn't be happening.
Sure it looks teh sexy but I've seen better sites designed by teenagers. :rolleyes:

On Safari it all looks great! Then again, it would :p - by the way, in testing I've done, Safari loads pages faster than Firefox does...

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2006, 01:07 PM
On Safari it all looks great! Then again, it would :p - by the way, in testing I've done, Safari loads pages faster than Firefox does...

Cool! So where is that Safari installer for Windows? :rolleyes: :p ;)

mongoos150
Jan 12, 2006, 01:08 PM
To the commentor on how "foolish" it is to buy the Yonah PB - there will ALWAYS be something coming down the road - enjoy your life while you live it. I assume you're the type of person to be driving a car 20 years old because every year a new car comes out you say to yourself "I'll just wait until we have fusion powered vehicles - buying a gasoline vehicle is foolish"! Sure it's an exaggeration - but the fact remains. Enjoy what you can get now, now that isn't available.:rolleyes:

mongoos150
Jan 12, 2006, 01:08 PM
Cool! So where is that Safari installer for Windows? :rolleyes: :p ;)
Hehe - You shouldn't be USING windows!:rolleyes:

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 01:23 PM
On a small sidenote does anyone else think Apple's *vomits a little bit* MacBook Pro Site Sucks? (http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/intelcoreduo.html)

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38609&stc=1&d=1137089631

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38610&stc=1&d=1137089638

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38611&stc=1&d=1137089647

Note that I'm using FireFox 1.0.4 but still. This IMHO shouldn't be happening.
Sure it looks teh sexy but I've seen better sites designed by teenagers. :rolleyes:LMAO I thought it was not tested with firefox, because it does look like ****. Looks like they slapped it together durning the keynote. I expect better quality control from Apple, let's hope that the MacBook Pros weren't slapped together so quickly.

If people want to judge sites harshly that only render correctly in IE (rightfully so to blast these sites) then Apple should be subject to the same criticism here. And here I was thinking that only Microsoft would be arrogent enough to make a website that only renders correctly with their propritary web browser...

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 01:25 PM
To the commentor on how "foolish" it is to buy the Yonah PB - there will ALWAYS be something coming down the road - enjoy your life while you live it. I assume you're the type of person to be driving a car 20 years old because every year a new car comes out you say to yourself "I'll just wait until we have fusion powered vehicles - buying a gasoline vehicle is foolish"! Sure it's an exaggeration - but the fact remains. Enjoy what you can get now, now that isn't available.:rolleyes:That's right brotha. Buy it now, because "you can't take it with you"!!

P.S. Wait until next year when the 64-bit Dual Core "Merom" goes into these babies. :D ;)

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2006, 01:30 PM
Hehe - You shouldn't be USING windows!:rolleyes:


hehe I don't have a choice at work and my PowerBook* hasn't shown up at home. Even then I wouldn't touch Safari. I <3 my FireFox extensions and themes.

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 01:32 PM
So what units are we using to determine a "speed increase" here. The MacBook Pro is 5x baseline? Ummm ok. What is this "performance per watt" crap? Talk about putting great spin on your products. I've read no press release that challenges the relavance of Apple's claim whatsoever. Boggles the mind.

They should be using DBs to measure performance increase. (Dock Bounces) :p

Steve Jobs: We reported an average decrease of 3 DBs in the new Intel Macs. (cheers and applause explode from the crowd)

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 01:33 PM
hehe I don't have a choice at work and my PowerBook* hasn't shown up at home. Even then I wouldn't touch Safari. I <3 my FireFox extensions and themes.Be prepaired to be dissappointed with FireFox on Mac. It's a little sluggish compaired to it's PC counterpart. :o

mongoos150
Jan 12, 2006, 01:43 PM
Yes it is - which is why I use FireFox on my old Dell (on the occasion I boot it up) and Safari on my PB. :)

~Shard~
Jan 12, 2006, 01:52 PM
Erm...bananas?

Data of course. :p


Heh heh - of course! :D :)

Peace
Jan 12, 2006, 02:00 PM
Be prepaired to be dissappointed with FireFox on Mac. It's a little sluggish compaired to it's PC counterpart. :o


Randall..Deer Park ( Firefox X86 universal ) kicks butt over Firefox on the PPC.

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 02:11 PM
Randall..Deer Park ( Firefox X86 universal ) kicks butt over Firefox on the PPC.Awesome. I thought they were still beta testing deer park though?

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2006, 02:15 PM
Randall..Deer Park ( Firefox X86 universal ) kicks butt over Firefox on the PPC.


Thank god. :D

Peace
Jan 12, 2006, 02:25 PM
Awesome. I thought they were still beta testing deer park though?

We are..There's only one bug I know of and it's Adobe/Macromedia's problem..

Flash crashes Deer Park.. this flash plug-in may have been fixed in 10.4.4 I'll let ya know soon as I get the Intel iMac

Adobe is working on a fix however.

grahamtriggs
Jan 12, 2006, 02:26 PM
Corrections to my Acer specifications (well sort of additions mainly):

Screen res: 1680x1050
Graphics: X1600 - but it's only 256MB dedicated, 512MB shared

More information about the Acer Travelmate (http://global.acer.com/products/notebook/tm8200.htm#)

According to that, it also has: optional PCI Express based dock, MediaBay allows upgrading of DVD / HDD / Battery as demands require, ExpressCard/34 and PC Card Type II slots, anti-shock / motion sensor.

It even ships with WinXP Pro.

Sure, MacOS X is nice, as is Apple software. And we don't know what the cooling is like. But in EVERY numeric specification, the Acer has the MacBook equalled or beat, for the same/lower price. That is a pretty hard slap, and with no excuses - at least in the past we could say it ran faster / cooler / quieter / better battery life (as appropriate).

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 02:27 PM
We are..There's only one bug I know of and it's Adobe/Macromedia's problem..

Flash crashes Deer Park..

Adobe is working on a fix however.Awesome that's great news. I love Firefox, and now I won't have to leave my extensions (del.icio.us, foxylicious, dict, etc.) :)

Peace
Jan 12, 2006, 02:38 PM
Corrections to my Acer specifications (well sort of additions mainly):

Screen res: 1680x1050
Graphics: X1600 - but it's only 256MB dedicated, 512MB shared

More information about the Acer Travelmate (http://global.acer.com/products/notebook/tm8200.htm#)

According to that, it also has: optional PCI Express based dock, MediaBay allows upgrading of DVD / HDD / Battery as demands require, ExpressCard/34 and PC Card Type II slots, anti-shock / motion sensor.

It even ships with WinXP Pro.

Sure, MacOS X is nice, as is Apple software. And we don't know what the cooling is like. But in EVERY numeric specification, the Acer has the MacBook equalled or beat, for the same/lower price. That is a pretty hard slap, and with no excuses - at least in the past we could say it ran faster / cooler / quieter / better battery life (as appropriate).


you're comparing the top of the line 20" Acer to the middle of the road 15" MacBook Pro right?

I mean we haven't seen the new 17" (or maybe even 20 ) MacBook Pro yet.

And I fail to see the WinXP point..

SiliconAddict
Jan 12, 2006, 02:44 PM
Corrections to my Acer specifications (well sort of additions mainly):

Screen res: 1680x1050
Graphics: X1600 - but it's only 256MB dedicated, 512MB shared

More information about the Acer Travelmate (http://global.acer.com/products/notebook/tm8200.htm#)

According to that, it also has: optional PCI Express based dock, MediaBay allows upgrading of DVD / HDD / Battery as demands require, ExpressCard/34 and PC Card Type II slots, anti-shock / motion sensor.

It even ships with WinXP Pro.

Sure, MacOS X is nice, as is Apple software. And we don't know what the cooling is like. But in EVERY numeric specification, the Acer has the MacBook equalled or beat, for the same/lower price. That is a pretty hard slap, and with no excuses - at least in the past we could say it ran faster / cooler / quieter / better battery life (as appropriate).

*sighs* :rolleyes: Some people get it. Some people don't. You, obviously don't. As has been stated time and again this isn't a pissing contest. If you want your hummer go ahead and buy one. I’ll stick with Apple’s Prius.

Mr Maui
Jan 12, 2006, 03:01 PM
Forgive me if this question has been asked, but has anyone said anything about the heat issue of these new books? Additionally, will the Apple stores have display models in house for pre-ordering before general shipping?

sfwalter
Jan 12, 2006, 03:46 PM
The rep at my local Apple store said that they won't get a demo model until *sometime* in February.

kenstee
Jan 12, 2006, 03:54 PM
I have a news flash for the nay-sayers. They only rushed it out too fast if people don't buy them. Period.

People are buying them. Their success will, ofcourse, be determined a couple months from now. It's odd that people are upset about a couple points and they gloss over all the *major advantages.* It's insanity to me, but I'll let you have your point of view. You don't want one. That's fine. For me, it fits all of my criteria and I plopped down the cash for one.

When the G5 came out I didn't buy one. Why? Because of factors that had little to do with their power or features. Although people griped about a lack of this or that, it was about portability to me. So, I understand criticism on the part of people who this doesn't meet their needs ... but my feeling is that there's 1% of you out there and you're all in one forum. I feel like it's a skewed version of reality.

I just read the unsanity article and this guy doesn't "get it" at all. It's unbelievable. I guess he's just ranting but most of the points he says are negatives are positives to me. Oh well.

Henry Norr - no stranger to the world of Macs - in his review for Macintouch had just about the same opinion as the Unsanity piece.

http://www.macintouch.com/sf2006/day1.html

Having legit issues with this Rev A does not make one a "nay-sayer." It makes one an informed, discriminating buyer.

If you want to ignore all of this to justify your purchase of this Rev A -- I certainly can understand that. If I just plunked down $2k+ for a machine with so many obvious shortcomings I might be rather defensive as well. As they say, "Buy in haste. Repent in leisure."

grahamtriggs
Jan 12, 2006, 04:00 PM
*sighs* :rolleyes: Some people get it. Some people don't. You, obviously don't. As has been stated time and again this isn't a pissing contest. If you want your hummer go ahead and buy one. I’ll stick with Apple’s Prius.

It's not about a pissing contest... it's about knowing what you get for your money, and making a reasoned, informed choice. In the past we've never been able to make direct comparisons, and there have always been reasons for choosing PowerPC/Mac - faster for some things, cooler, lower power consumption, etc. Now that we are being forced into Intels (sooner or later), then we can and *should* make direct comparisons. Remember, these are TOOLS, it's not about what is the shiniest / glossiest, but what gets the job done.

As much as I deride Microsoft and Windows, as much as I hate OS activation and the registry and 'DLL hell', as much as Windows makes it easier than it should be to write malware, in all honesty, there isn't much practical difference between the usability of OS X and Windows.

On top of that, what about application support? How many major (or even minor) applications are available as universal binaries? How many major vendors have even announced intentions to ship universal binaries? How many won't involve significant upgrade costs? (And how many people are using latest versions already to incur minimal upgrade costs)?

You know what I want? I want a reason to stay a Mac user. Not just keep a Mac around (which I will do anyway), but to continue with Mac being my primary platform. I've been pleading for about 12 months for that to happen. They almost did - but at too high a premium to justify it. And unless you are intrinsically tied to the software, it's clear that it is.

Of course, if the badge is that important to you...

grahamtriggs
Jan 12, 2006, 04:13 PM
you're comparing the top of the line 20" Acer to the middle of the road 15" MacBook Pro right?

I mean we haven't seen the new 17" (or maybe even 20 ) MacBook Pro yet.

And I fail to see the WinXP point..

Well, it is the top of the line Acer, but it's the 15.4" Carbon Fibre cased, 2MB RAM, 120GB 2ghz Core Duo, compared to the 15" 1.83Ghz MacBook.

I fail to see the point about 17" MacBooks - I mean, they will be even more expensive (although of course, they would need to be compared to similar 17" PC hardware, which would also be more expensive than the Acer discussed).

As for WinXP Pro... it's a nice feature, has a few things over Home - but the point is that for most people, probably an unnecessary feature, and one that incurs a significant cost premium over XP Home. Just think how much cheaper the Acer would be if it had used XP Home.

And Apple sell OS X as a product at a price more equivalent to XP Home (a reasonable amount then to factor in as the 'OS X' cost of the purchase?).

DinoMac
Jan 12, 2006, 04:27 PM
The rep at my local Apple store said that they won't get a demo model until *sometime* in February.

Mine @Lenox Mall in Atlanta said LATE February.

lozion
Jan 12, 2006, 04:29 PM
am i wrong in thinking that setting the scratch disk as a different drive than the drive protools (or final cut or cubase etc) is on is the best bet so long as the speed of the drives is comparable. and aside from speed it is better for stability...no?
in other words, regardless of the speed of the internal drive, external is the first choice for pro apps
o and lozion...your speculation about new audio interface cards is exactrly why i dont want to HAVE to use the slot for FW800 ... we'll see though.

I have succesfully mixed a 32 tracks, 16 bus, 40+ plugs song using my powerbook 15'' 1.33 on Protools 6.4 using my internal Hitachi Travelstar 7k60 drive (7200rpm). No glitch whatsover. Make a partition, keep your audio separate and defrag once in awhile using techtool pro and you wont have any problems.

This said, I can only imagine the performances of the new Macbook Pro with its SATA drive, dual proc, etc. Finally, laptop users will be able to mix serious projects thanks to these new specs.
And Expresscard as the potential to bring us external dsp a la UAD-1 or TC powercore with immensely faster speed thanks to the pci/e bus...
Speed, lower latency, more dsp... I'm drooling...:cool:

Randall
Jan 12, 2006, 04:29 PM
Mine @Lenox Mall in Atlanta said LATE February.The good news is February is the shortest month of the year! Hopefully it will arrive on February 24 (My birthday) :cool:

iYooper
Jan 12, 2006, 04:49 PM
The good news is February is the shortest month of the year! Hopefully it will arrive on February 24 (My birthday) :cool:
I just put on on my credit card, and Apple sez ship on Feb. 15!! Whoop!

jbouklas
Jan 12, 2006, 05:52 PM
Edited

jbouklas
Jan 12, 2006, 05:58 PM
Edited.

kenstee
Jan 12, 2006, 06:23 PM
Basically, this confirms what we all know. The good Intel stuff won't be available until late this year. This Rev A Yonah is just a "placeholder" until then. If you REALLY need a new portable it's worthy of consideration. If you don't, it might be wiser to hold off for awhile. There are major- and very positive - changes ahead.

"Analyst Mark Stahlman today of Caris and Company reiterated an "above average" rating on Apple, but addressed some concerns for the company.

While Apple recently unveiled its new Intel-based MacBook Pro notebooks and iMac desktop models at the Expo, "Intel's own roadmap implies that much of the 'good stuff' won't appear until the end of calendar 2006, when next-generation 'Conroe' and 'Merom' are due to ship in volume."

"As impressive as the computer-intensive benchmarks offered by Apple might be, there is no way to avoid the fact that Intel's Core Duo processor is a 32-bit engine that is fundamentally obsolete in a 64-bit x86 world. As AMD ramps to ship its dual-core 64-bit notebook CPU's [...] we believe Apple may lose some of its premium luster."

jbouklas
Jan 12, 2006, 07:35 PM
Edited.

Dave the Great
Jan 12, 2006, 10:39 PM
I have a question about the power per wattage stuff that was mentioned in the keynote...

If I have a 1.67 MacBook Pro and set it to 1.67 PowerBook G4 comparable brightness, shouldn't I get 4x the battery life - so like 20 hours of battery life? :)

Too bad I guess you actually get less on the MacBook Pro - I think people are saying about 3 hours.

rugonnaeatthat
Jan 12, 2006, 10:55 PM
I have succesfully mixed a 32 tracks, 16 bus, 40+ plugs song using my powerbook 15'' 1.33 on Protools 6.4 using my internal Hitachi Travelstar 7k60 drive (7200rpm). No glitch whatsover. Make a partition, keep your audio separate and defrag once in awhile using techtool pro and you wont have any problems.

This said, I can only imagine the performances of the new Macbook Pro with its SATA drive, dual proc, etc. Finally, laptop users will be able to mix serious projects thanks to these new specs.
And Expresscard as the potential to bring us external dsp a la UAD-1 or TC powercore with immensely faster speed thanks to the pci/e bus...
Speed, lower latency, more dsp... I'm drooling...:cool:


Of course you'll have to wait a year for Digidesign to have any software that will work on them! I switched to Logic as it is so much more forgiving with software/hardware updates.

But I agree about the bright future for these books and music - they will make everything more fluidic and take away many of the walls that one is faced with recording with a G4 system. I am looking forward to bringing a Macbook to band prac & gigs :-)

zync
Jan 12, 2006, 11:25 PM
Wow i cant believe all the whining about dl burner. Im willing to bet most of you people have never touched a dual layer media.

The system is faster, lighter, you get an iSight, you lose a modem and something for a technology that will never take off (dl media) What a tragedy.

Big deal, an iSight, wow. I have access to a few GL2s and I have no need for video conferencing besides sheer novelty. Thanks but no thanks.

Also, ummm, DL media is used EVERYWHERE! Nearly all commercial DVDs, although pressed, are dual layer. If you don't want to highly compress your video you need dual layer DVDs to fit good quality video on a single DVD.

And Surreal was right, I was talking about firewire 800. Thank you Surreal and ZorPrime :)

rugonnaeatthat
Jan 12, 2006, 11:33 PM
It's not about a pissing contest... it's about knowing what you get for your money, and making a reasoned, informed choice. In the past we've never been able to make direct comparisons, and there have always been reasons for choosing PowerPC/Mac - faster for some things, cooler, lower power consumption, etc. Now that we are being forced into Intels (sooner or later), then we can and *should* make direct comparisons. Remember, these are TOOLS, it's not about what is the shiniest / glossiest, but what gets the job done.

As much as I deride Microsoft and Windows, as much as I hate OS activation and the registry and 'DLL hell', as much as Windows makes it easier than it should be to write malware, in all honesty, there isn't much practical difference between the usability of OS X and Windows.

On top of that, what about application support? How many major (or even minor) applications are available as universal binaries? How many major vendors have even announced intentions to ship universal binaries? How many won't involve significant upgrade costs? (And how many people are using latest versions already to incur minimal upgrade costs)?

You know what I want? I want a reason to stay a Mac user. Not just keep a Mac around (which I will do anyway), but to continue with Mac being my primary platform. I've been pleading for about 12 months for that to happen. They almost did - but at too high a premium to justify it. And unless you are intrinsically tied to the software, it's clear that it is.

Of course, if the badge is that important to you...


Did you include the backlit keyboard and the sudden motion sensor in your comparison?

grahamtriggs
Jan 13, 2006, 12:18 AM
"As impressive as the computer-intensive benchmarks offered by Apple might be, there is no way to avoid the fact that Intel's Core Duo processor is a 32-bit engine that is fundamentally obsolete in a 64-bit x86 world. As AMD ramps to ship its dual-core 64-bit notebook CPU's [...] we believe Apple may lose some of its premium luster."

32-bit processors are far from obsolete - most people haven't got anywhere near using 4GB RAM yet. The only reason to get 64-bit chips is that it runs the 32-bit stuff great... but there is no reason why a 32-bit processor can't be design to perform at least as well.

grahamtriggs
Jan 13, 2006, 12:19 AM
Did you include the backlit keyboard and the sudden motion sensor in your comparison?

They've got the motion sensor. Fair point that they haven't got the backlit keyboard, but then some of us don't actually like it (and don't have any use for it).

Airforce
Jan 13, 2006, 12:25 AM
Why do I say this? Because that 1.8GHz Duo chip in the MacBook Pro is faster than the fastest desktop P4 in everything but graphics rendering, where it is very close.

Heh....you might want to check up on that. The 1.8Ghz Duo isn't the fastest out.

SiliconAddict
Jan 13, 2006, 12:30 AM
It's not about a pissing contest... it's about knowing what you get for your money, and making a reasoned, informed choice. In the past we've never been able to make direct comparisons, and there have always been reasons for choosing PowerPC/Mac - faster for some things, cooler, lower power consumption, etc. Now that we are being forced into Intels (sooner or later), then we can and *should* make direct comparisons. Remember, these are TOOLS, it's not about what is the shiniest / glossiest, but what gets the job done.

As much as I deride Microsoft and Windows, as much as I hate OS activation and the registry and 'DLL hell', as much as Windows makes it easier than it should be to write malware, in all honesty, there isn't much practical difference between the usability of OS X and Windows.

On top of that, what about application support? How many major (or even minor) applications are available as universal binaries? How many major vendors have even announced intentions to ship universal binaries? How many won't involve significant upgrade costs? (And how many people are using latest versions already to incur minimal upgrade costs)?

You know what I want? I want a reason to stay a Mac user. Not just keep a Mac around (which I will do anyway), but to continue with Mac being my primary platform. I've been pleading for about 12 months for that to happen. They almost did - but at too high a premium to justify it. And unless you are intrinsically tied to the software, it's clear that it is.

Of course, if the badge is that important to you...


The badge isn’t that important to me. I’ve been dealing with Windows since the 386 days. Hell I have the box for Windows 1 sitting on my shelf. I’ve worked with Dell’s, IBM’s, Toshiba’s, Gateway’s, Acer’s, Alienware’s, voodoo’s among other systems. I support a site of 160 users with another site of 50. In my free time I practically run a PC support business out of my house. I deploy Dells and IBM’s ever freaking week. I KNOW this platform inside and out.
I’m getting a Mac for one and only one reason: Apple knows how to put a computer together right. And when I say right that doesn’t always mean the uber top of the line hardware. As I said in my previous post that you obviously missed Apple considers the entire system. Do you really think they didn’t have good enough connections to get 2Ghz chips from Intel if they wanted them? Do you really think that a .17Ghz difference is going to make that large of an impact? Or do you think Apple didn’t consider this when they were designing it. Consider the power requirements? Consider what is needed for a 1” laptop. If you think this is all about badging you are sorely mistaken and again don’t get it.
This is about the entire system from the OS down to the CPU down the battery being integrated into a package that just works. Again I can tell you as someone who has deployed these systems in the office I work; people treat these things as commodes. There is no attention to detail anymore. As I type this I have 3 laptops under my desk:
The workhorse: A Toshiba Satellite 15”, 800Mhz, 384MB RAM, GeForce2Go 32MB, 40GB, XP
The Wardriver: A Dell Latitude CSx 13”, 500Mhz, 256MB RAM, NeoMagic 16MB, 30GB, XP/2K
The Business PC: An IBM ThinkPad X31 12” , 1.4Ghz, 512MB RAM, ATI 32MB, 40GB, XP


You know what differentiates all three of these other then age? Not a damn thing other then specs. All PC’s are cut from the same cloth at the end of the day. What makes Apple different, even after this transition is the willingness to say what should stay and what should go. What is the best ratio of speed when it comes to CPU, battery, GPU, screen resolution, etc. I’ve seen it too many times with Dell systems, and even my Toshiba. They throw in the best hardware paying no attention to detail. Of course this sounds like a ****** deal. Look you have these wonderful specs. What’s not to love? How long is it before you simply don’t care anymore about the system itself. You simply want to DO something. That is the point where specs stop becoming all important and that is the point where Apple systems and their attention to detail becomes more important then specs. Does it sound like a BS excuse? Sure. But it’s the god honest truth.
If I didn’t believe it I wouldn’t be purchasing my first Apple since I owned my Apple IIe. If you didn’t get it yet I will spell it out one last time, it’s late.

Bang for your buck does go beyond specs. Yes specs factor into it but for those who have worked in the industry long enough we know it’s not the end all be all of qualifications for a good computer.
Again stop complaining and go by the Acer. It seems as if you are hell bent on getting one and hell bent on convincing everyone that Acer is a better deal. Deal is in the eye of the beholder.

devman
Jan 13, 2006, 12:53 AM
The truth sometimes stinks!

uh, yeah. great comeback... :p well dude, 25 posts on MR now, 21 of them negative. lucky we have your "anything negative apple news clipping service" to stop the mass delusion. :eek: :rolleyes:

PowerbookG31991
Jan 13, 2006, 01:03 AM
Forgive me if this question has been asked, but has anyone said anything about the heat issue of these new books? Additionally, will the Apple stores have display models in house for pre-ordering before general shipping?

Your first question: Not yet (For what I know of, but I hope there isn't).
Your second question: Doubt it, the MacBooks will only be displayed after the release (I could be wrong...)

ZorPrime
Jan 13, 2006, 01:44 AM
Big deal, an iSight, wow. I have access to a few GL2s and I have no need for video conferencing besides sheer novelty. Thanks but no thanks.

Also, ummm, DL media is used EVERYWHERE! Nearly all commercial DVDs, although pressed, are dual layer. If you don't want to highly compress your video you need dual layer DVDs to fit good quality video on a single DVD.

And Surreal was right, I was talking about firewire 800. Thank you Surreal and ZorPrime :)

I don't know what I said but you're welcome. :o :)

Once again, I totally agree with you. :cool: In addition to what You and Surreal have accurately stated, I have yet to meet a Video pro that would prefer SL over DL DVD capability. I got my 17" PB with a DL a couple of months ago, specifically because I didn’t want a Rev A intel Mac, and it has already paid for itself over and over.

I was on a 4-day business trip, to meet with a new client who wanted some promotional video postproduction done, culminating in a DVD they could package for a product launch. To make a long story short, with my "out-dated" G4 PowerBook and my client's "useless" FW800 hard drives enabled me to produce a demo two hour enhanced Standard Definition DVD with multiple angle tracks, subtitles, dolby audio voiceovers in three languages, that was just shy of 8.5 gigs. I secured the contract worth just under $10k USD from that one business trip. My "obsolete" G4 with its Dual Layer DVD made me some nice "Gs" (aka $$s), so I guess it's not completely useless. :cool: If I had a MacBook Pro, I wouldn't have been able to burn the DL DVD that won me the contract and a new client. :D

50548
Jan 13, 2006, 02:38 AM
Basically, this confirms what we all know. The good Intel stuff won't be available until late this year. This Rev A Yonah is just a "placeholder" until then. If you REALLY need a new portable it's worthy of consideration. If you don't, it might be wiser to hold off for awhile. There are major- and very positive - changes ahead.

"Analyst Mark Stahlman today of Caris and Company reiterated an "above average" rating on Apple, but addressed some concerns for the company.

While Apple recently unveiled its new Intel-based MacBook Pro notebooks and iMac desktop models at the Expo, "Intel's own roadmap implies that much of the 'good stuff' won't appear until the end of calendar 2006, when next-generation 'Conroe' and 'Merom' are due to ship in volume."

"As impressive as the computer-intensive benchmarks offered by Apple might be, there is no way to avoid the fact that Intel's Core Duo processor is a 32-bit engine that is fundamentally obsolete in a 64-bit x86 world. As AMD ramps to ship its dual-core 64-bit notebook CPU's [...] we believe Apple may lose some of its premium luster."

Sorry, if there is one Apple computer which is NOT Rev. A, it's the new MBP. The technology is fully taken from tested and proved PB G4s and there is nothing else really groundbreaking, apart from the camera and the magsafe connector.

From all Apple launches in the recent era, the Intel iMac and the MBP are probably the most "no-brainer" of all, in terms of overall reliability, simply because they don't represent new designs or totally new architectures.

As for 64-bit DC, the Quad more than covers AMD offers...for mobile computers it's totally useless right now, and I see no reason for people to complain over what exactly has been their reason to complain in the last years - performance of the G4.

grahamtriggs
Jan 13, 2006, 03:31 AM
I’m getting a Mac for one and only one reason: Apple knows how to put a computer together right. And when I say right that doesn’t always mean the uber top of the line hardware. As I said in my previous post that you obviously missed Apple considers the entire system. Do you really think they didn’t have good enough connections to get 2Ghz chips from Intel if they wanted them? Do you really think that a .17Ghz difference is going to make that large of an impact? Or do you think Apple didn’t consider this when they were designing it. Consider the power requirements? Consider what is needed for a 1” laptop. If you think this is all about badging you are sorely mistaken and again don’t get it.

You know, that's what I used to think. I've been using PCs for nearly 15 years, mostly building my own (desktops). But for the last 3 years I've been using a Mac (well 2 Macs) as my primary devices. Why? Because 3 years ago, quiet PCs were largely in their infancy - the machines were making just too much noise. And the laptops had a battery life you could measure in seconds even though the processor was throttled back to about a tenth of what it is meant to be capable of.

Yes, Macs were built 'right' - but that was largely down to actually being different. Being PowerPC allowed them to be 'right' at a time when x86's couldn't match. The G4 was capable of being run at a decent rate without killing the battery.

We don't live in those times anymore though. Sure PC manufacturers are still mostly putting out crap desktops, but I can easily build a nice, quiet one myself. Whilst I can't make a clear judgement on quality of laptops without actually seeing/using them, it should be obvious that being on the same architecture means that anything Apple achieves with it's hardware COULD be matched by a PC manufacturer.

I don't have a problem with the specs of the MacBook - of course they could have faster processors, etc. but that doesn't really matter. Look at the list prices of the components, and they've actually made a sensible price/performance decision - good performance without ridiculous price premiums. It's just that it isn't reflected in the price of the laptop. The Acer comparison isn't just to say look at how much more you get for the same money, it's to point out that you are actually getting something like $600 worth of extra hardware. That's $600 that would be taken off of the price of a similarly specced PC laptop, and therefore a pricepoint that the MacBook should be a hell of a lot closer to (a premium of about $200 to $300 would be reasonable). Hell, I can get a Dell that is almost identically specced to the MacBook for about $400 less - albeit with a much higher res 17" screen (in fact, that appeals to me more than the Acer, apart from it being a Dell).

OK, the iBooks are still to come, but the current range has too small a screen (or rather, too low a res). Unless they up that into the territory of the MacBooks (and that may be unlikely, as it could cannibalise the MBP sales), then my choice would be between a consumer line that doesn't fulfil my requirements, and a pro line that is vastly overpriced compared to identical PCs.

Three additional points:

1) I do accept that the backlit keyboard is a nice feature for some, and it costs money to do it. But if it is adding that much of a premium to the price, then it should be optional.

2) You talk about power requirements. I realise that extra performance means extra battery drain. Here's the rub - the Acer has better performance (and no sacrifices on DVD, HDD, connectors, etc.), but it also has a bigger battery AND a better (claimed) battery life than the MBP. It seems that Apple have 'sacrificed' performance and battery life for a thinner (lighter?) machine. IMHO - thinner and lighter isn't the be all and end all... if I was that concerned about size and portability, I would get a sub-notebook.

3) I was reading a review of the Acer last night. They scored it 99% - one could conclude from that not only does it have excellent specs and price, it's pretty well engineered as well. Basically damn near impossible to find fault with. So where exactly would that leave the MBP?

datoby
Jan 13, 2006, 04:04 AM
hi,

we dont know how long the new macbook performs on a battery charge. I think (I hope) it will be the same time or even longer than the old g4 pbook. I have ordered one in the apple store. I hope the battery will perform longer than the acer book, too.

GroundLoop
Jan 13, 2006, 06:07 AM
Does anybody else out there wish that Apple would release a MacBook Pro without the iSight built-in? That little camera is all that is stopping my employer from allowing me to get one for work. Sometimes working in the defense industry has its disadvantages.

Hickman

rugonnaeatthat
Jan 13, 2006, 06:57 AM
A thought... wouldn't it be nice if the remote was designed to hide in the Express card slot... instead of having to carry it around with you? Correct me if I'm wrong but there is a bit of space in there.

BTW - well done Siliconaddict for your post on the previous page. You hit it on the head as far as Apples Hardware design and OS integration are concerned. It's all about the compromises and the thought/wisdom gone into the compromises.

Meanwhile I really value the inclusion of ilife - usually buying it each year anyhow for my older macs. So this constitutes added value for me and wasn't much mentioned with the Acer comparison.

jacobj
Jan 13, 2006, 07:19 AM
Has anyone else mentioned the fact that Apple uses Doom 3 as a benchmark (http://www.apple.com/uk/macbookpro/graphics.html) on their site, stating that it is 2.2 x faster than the PB.

This makes me wonder how they got the figure because as I see it there were only 2 ways of testing it:


In a PB with the X1600 installed
(or) In the MB Pro running Rosetta


The first option is fine and it shows us that the Graphics cards is very good indeed on the PowerPC architecture but this mean nothing (or at least little) unless we know how it runs on the Intel architecture. Plus it implies that a MacBook Pro purchaser will be able to run Doom 3 2.2 x faster on their new machine which of course may be utterly untrue if Rosetta is required and therefore kills the playability of the game.

The second option would just be wonderful.

PS. I don't care for games, but I do care about the GPU as I need it for photo editing.

[edit] i'm an idiot


Testing conducted by Apple in December 2005 using pre-production MacBook Pro units with 1.83GHz Intel Core Duo. Doom 3 benchmark = Timedemo Demo1 with beta Universal version. Modo tested with beta Universal version. Safari HTML Load Speed (cached) test is a subset of a beta version of the i-Bench 5.0 benchmark.

yankeefan24
Jan 13, 2006, 07:45 AM
All i want is a MacBook convertable (with a better name). similar specs as the macbook pro, but with the tablet feature and NO iSIGHT. also, i want something redesigned.

Randall
Jan 13, 2006, 07:54 AM
All i want is a MacBook convertable (with a better name). similar specs as the macbook pro, but with the tablet feature and NO iSIGHT. also, i want something redesigned.There is no need whatsoever for a tablet. If you want a tablet so bad, then go buy a Palm or something. :rolleyes:

sphereboy
Jan 13, 2006, 07:57 AM
I WANT TO BELIEVE!

ZorPrime
Jan 13, 2006, 08:18 AM
Sorry, if there is one Apple computer which is NOT Rev. A, it's the new MBP. The technology is fully taken from tested and proved PB G4s and there is nothing else really groundbreaking, apart from the camera and the magsafe connector.


I have to disagree with you one this statement, the technology isn't "fully taken" from tested PB G4s... Last time I checked the Core Duo isn't a PPC, doesn't use the same Motherboard, Ram, Bus, not even based on the same technology as the PB, etc... it's the first Intel portable from Apple... so I'd say by definition the MBP is indeed a Rev A/first version of a new line. :cool:

uv23
Jan 13, 2006, 08:25 AM
For all of you who are concerned about the default inclusion of an iSight and not being able to run such devices at your work for security reasons, I encourage you to send emails to Apple stating as much. I think this will be more of an issue than they had considered. Let your opinions be heard by people that can properly relay them rather than just venting here. If nothing else, we probably won't see MacBook Pros on the set of 24 season 5 for this reason. ;)

ZorPrime
Jan 13, 2006, 08:25 AM
Does anybody else out there wish that Apple would release a MacBook Pro without the iSight built-in? That little camera is all that is stopping my employer from allowing me to get one for work. Sometimes working in the defense industry has its disadvantages.

Hickman

I'm with you, I'd skip it too. Like you said, the iSight can pose a "security risk" for some employers. I have a couple of clients that don't allow cellphones with cameras in certain areas. If there's a feature Apple could chop from a pro machine, it would be the iSight. :cool:

50548
Jan 13, 2006, 08:26 AM
I have to disagree with you one this statement, the technology isn't "fully taken" from tested PB G4s... Last time I checked the Core Duo isn't a PPC, doesn't use the same Motherboard, Ram, Bus, not even bases on the same technology, etc... it's the first for Apple... so I'd say by definition the MBP is indeed a Rev A/first version of an Intel Based Macintosh. :cool:

Funny...I thought most of the "PB G4s are slow" and "I hate the MBP" guys in this forum said either one of two things:

- Intel cooperation and MOBOs are among the best and have much better reliability than Apple circuits;

or

- Nothing's changed in the MBP...they just crammed a Core Duo inside...there's nothing new in the MBP!! I want my PB G4 again!

And you still think it's a Rev. A?

Randall
Jan 13, 2006, 08:29 AM
For all of you who are concerned about the default inclusion of an iSight and not being able to run such devices at your work for security reasons, I encourage you to send emails to Apple stating as much. I think this will be more of an issue than they had considered. Let your opinions be heard by people that can properly relay them rather than just venting here. If nothing else, we probably won't see MacBook Pros on the set of 24 season 5 for this reason. ;)I agree. The iSight needs to be optional, because there are security issues with certain companies that have a no camera policy. This is a feature that is a great idea, but it absolutely needs to be optional, otherwise apple will never get their foot in the door for corporate computing, which is Microsoft's biggest market. :(

DeVizardofOZ
Jan 13, 2006, 08:34 AM
:mad: Looks like you guys are right. There is an explicit reference with the iMacs as having double layer Superdrive. Not so with the MacBooks:confused:
Why on earth only 2 USB ports, why no firewire 800. 4 USB ports should be standard, 3 would be good, but only 2???Well, maybe on the 17"...
iSight build in: GOOD, but where?
Just hope the quality issues they had with previous 15 and 17"models (screen flickers).
Can I have mine in Ferrari Red...:D just kiddin.

Cheers
DeVizardof OZ

Sunrunner
Jan 13, 2006, 08:44 AM
I agree. The iSight needs to be optional, because there are security issues with certain companies that have a no camera policy. This is a feature that is a great idea, but it absolutely needs to be optional, otherwise apple will never get their foot in the door for corporate computing, which is Microsoft's biggest market. :(

Its called a sticker. Place it over the camera. Many of the same companies that have no-camera policies also often have tamper-proof stickers and the like that they use to cover sensors that they dont want used (like IRDA ports).

Sunrunner
Jan 13, 2006, 08:46 AM
I'm with you, I'd skip it too. Like you said, the iSight can pose a "security risk" for some employers. I have a couple of clients that don't allow cellphones with cameras in certain areas. If there's a feature Apple could chop from a pro machine, it would be the iSight. :cool:


Imagine how bad this problem will get once they have camera-integrated displays as their recently-released patent illustrates. The line is blurring...

Randall
Jan 13, 2006, 08:51 AM
I have created an online petiton stating the reasons why we feel the iSight should be optional in the new computer models. If you agree with this then please sign the petition and help spread the word by emailing it to your friends. http://www.petitiononline.com/iSight/petition.html

Randall
Jan 13, 2006, 08:56 AM
Its called a sticker. Place it over the camera. Many of the same companies that have no-camera policies also often have tamper-proof stickers and the like that they use to cover sensors that they dont want used (like IRDA ports).That is simply useless. No company that's worth thier weight in salt and is serious about their security policy will allow this.

Sunrunner
Jan 13, 2006, 08:58 AM
That is simply useless. No company that's worth thier weight in salt and is serious about their security policy will allow this.

Not true at all. The DoD uses that method all the time, and in some of the most sensitive areas of operation. Of course that is on devices that dont leave the facility, and cant transmit in any wireless fashion.

Peace
Jan 13, 2006, 09:07 AM
Has anyone else mentioned the fact that Apple uses Doom 3 as a benchmark (http://www.apple.com/uk/macbookpro/graphics.html) on their site, stating that it is 2.2 x faster than the PB.

This makes me wonder how they got the figure because as I see it there were only 2 ways of testing it:


In a PB with the X1600 installed
(or) In the MB Pro running Rosetta


The first option is fine and it shows us that the Graphics cards is very good indeed on the PowerPC architecture but this mean nothing (or at least little) unless we know how it runs on the Intel architecture. Plus it implies that a MacBook Pro purchaser will be able to run Doom 3 2.2 x faster on their new machine which of course may be utterly untrue if Rosetta is required and therefore kills the playability of the game.

The second option would just be wonderful.

PS. I don't care for games, but I do care about the GPU as I need it for photo editing.

[edit] i'm an idiot

Has it ever occured to you that Apple was using a universal binary of Doom 3 ?

Randall
Jan 13, 2006, 09:08 AM
Of course that is on devices that dont leave the facility, and cant transmit in any wireless fashion. Case and point. I was assuming that we were discussing laptops that can and will be leaving the facility. Not holding sensitive information, but being allowed in and out of the facility freely.

SiliconAddict
Jan 13, 2006, 09:22 AM
I WANT TO BELIEVE!


http://home.comcast.net/~jonnormand/IWantToBelieve.jpg

SiliconAddict
Jan 13, 2006, 09:28 AM
Oh and as for the isight. God people. There is a simple solution that I've seen in multiple sites. Take a hammer and a very small nail and drive it into the CCD. Yes it blemishes the cellphone/laptop but it solves the problem.

DavoMrMac
Jan 13, 2006, 09:37 AM
Oh and as for the isight. God people. There is a simple solution that I've seen in multiple sites. Take a hammer and a very small nail and drive it into the CCD. Yes it blemishes the cellphone/laptop but it solves the problem.

Yes, this is an option, but would invalidate the warranty.

Even easier solution, BTO option from Apple to leave the iSight camera there, but to disable it or not wire it in. Then if the MBP was ever sold on, the iSight could possibly be enabled again for the new user.

ZorPrime
Jan 13, 2006, 09:39 AM
Funny...I thought most of the "PB G4s are slow" and "I hate the MBP" guys in this forum said either one of two things:

- Intel cooperation and MOBOs are among the best and have much better reliability than Apple circuits;

or

- Nothing's changed in the MBP...they just crammed a Core Duo inside...there's nothing new in the MBP!! I want my PB G4 again!

And you still think it's a Rev. A?

I'm in neither camp. I think both machines are cool and have their strengths and weaknesses. :cool:

Yup, I still think it's a Rev A Mac Machine. How many "versions/updates" of the Intel Core Duo Apple Macs running OSX have there been? I'm not trying to be aggressive or anything but I was wondering what your functioning definition of what Rev A means is?

mpw
Jan 13, 2006, 09:46 AM
There is no need whatsoever for a tablet. If you want a tablet so bad, then go buy a Palm or something. :rolleyes:
You may have no need, Apple may see no business need but don't assume that nobody has a need. Remember you probably have no NEED for a computer at all.

Some people have a need for a Palm I don't 'cause it won't run the software that I need it to OSX will but I still need it to be a tablet format.:rolleyes:

DeVizardofOZ
Jan 13, 2006, 09:55 AM
Hi.

I've been reading this forum for quite some time, but this is the first time that I post here.

I'm kinda dissapointed with you all.... I mean....do you even know how the PC architecture is?????


Guys...I don't have a Mac symply because I don't have the money to buy one, but that does not mean that I don't know one...I have to work with them at the university and I think it's a great platform.

Now, getting to the point.... Intel offers lower consumption CPUs,, but they are underpowered for managing a complex task such as running OS X and emulating the PPC architecture. Granted, they have a battery life that makes their competitors shame on theirselfs....

Second...design. Do you want a slimmer MacBook? granted...but...you will have to loose Firewire 400 and 800, because they are too tall to fit on a slim notebook. Do you want a Superdrive? no sir... DVD drives are too tall to fit on a slim notebook. So...what does it have then?? Just USB2, PC Card Slot and Wi-fi...no optical drive at all. Are you willing to loose all that just to get a thinner laptop? I don't.

Third. NO Dual-Layer DVD Drive? BIG mistake, Apple.

If you want a resistant laptop...get a roughed notebook...just plain and simple. Apple laptops have style....if durability comes with the style (as with the aluminum case), the better the laptop is.

FW800...please.... does anyone uses it????? does it have a REAL use right now?

Like one guy said before, the top bitrate for a codec is 100mbit per second and that is 4 times slower than the FW400 is capable of. Granted, there could be hard drives that require the FW800 port, but... did you know that the hard drive speed DOES NOT VARIES OR DEPEND FROM THE HARD DRIVE BUS?

The hard drive speed mainly depends on the spin speed, (the RPMs), the access time (the time that the magnet gets to the cylynder or block and is measured in ms) and the amount of cache memory that it has.

If you buy a 5400 RPM hard drive with 2mb of buffer, it's practically THE SAME connecting it to a FW400 or FW800 port...the drive will work at the same speed. Different is the story if you connect an external S-ATA drive to an external S-ATA port...the hard drive will scream in speed (obviously if we are talking about a 10,000 rpm hard drive with 8mb buffer).

Now...talking about the bios....all the Intel Macs WILL NOT BE USING BIOS!!!!!... They will be using EFI, so stop having that fear.

Battery life?? It will be the same as the 15 inch PowerBook...maybe a bit better, because of the battery structure (lithium polymer cells are lighter and store more energy).

Now, if you say that the features found in the MacBook pro are little...let me tell you sommething: I know about PC architecture. I've built my own computer and if there is somthing that is a troublemaker is the cooling system and the power supply. Do you know how many watts does an ATi Radeon x1600 consumes? If you don't, then shut the **** up, because they are power-hungry...in fact, the whole graphics system will eat your battery like when homer simpson eats a donut...yeah, that fast. Do you know how to cool a x1600 chip? in fact, it needs a huge heatsink (well...it's "normal" for a desktop PC) and putting it in a VERY small package such as the MacBook is...man..THAT's engeneering!!.

Now, going back to FW800...there was a point that someone before noted it: Intel IS NOT going to design a new chipset just for Apple. Right now, Intel DOES NOT have FW in their chips, but it will, since Apple is with them, but...forget about being the only ones with FW800. If Intel implements FW800 in its new chipsets, ALL PC manufacturers and motherboard manufacturers will have access to that technology. That's good and bad. It's good because it will be an standard just as FW400 is, but it will no longer be "apple-only".

By the way, I have a 2 year old Pentium 4 (Northwood core, 2.0 Ghz with 512k L2 cache and SSE2) and it screams in speed with Mac OS X (yeah, I've managed to get it into my PC) compared to how it goes with Windows XP. I only hope that the 10.4.4 release will be cracked shortly. I know I will loose speed emulating SSE3 and then emulating PPC, but it's all worth if I have that beautiful OS on my machine. In fact, I'm writing this post from Safary x86. ^^

Regards.

Miguel


PS: sorry for my english. there's been a while that i don't practice it.


I really enjoyed your post, and the insight you gave me in hiTech:D Now I can say, that I understand some of the changes APPLE made, like no FW800.
The iSight should have been optional for various reasons. Maybe they could have given us 3 USB ports, and a choice of colors. haha;) because I like REDDD. Apart from all this I look forward to the 17"machine and specs.

Don't worry about your English, it's just fine, and I wish you good fortune, so you can buy the Apple of your choice.

Ciao
DeVizardof OZ:p

SiliconAddict
Jan 13, 2006, 09:55 AM
Yes, this is an option, but would invalidate the warranty.

Even easier solution, BTO option from Apple to leave the iSight camera there, but to disable it or not wire it in. Then if the MBP was ever sold on, the iSight could possibly be enabled again for the new user.

Huh. Apple may very well be different but 5 years ago we deployed a Sony PictureBook at a medical insurance facility. HIPAA was being strictly enforced there and that included NO cameras. We contacted Sony and were assured that the only thing the action resulted in was voiding the warrantee on the camera and screen. Again, maybe Apple is different in how they handle warrantees work. :confused:

jacobj
Jan 13, 2006, 10:00 AM
Has it ever occured to you that Apple was using a universal binary of Doom 3 ?

You must have missed my edit

jacobj
Jan 13, 2006, 11:12 AM
I rushed in and ordered the MacBook Pro the day it came out. I then cancelled the order on the following day because I was uncomfortable with my decision. I found a lot of advice on these forums but most of it was based on faith and very little detail.

I therefore decided to do more in depth research and measured thinking and here is what I found.

1. The Intel Core Duo is really a very good processor. It outperforms the Pentium M in many respects and we all know that the Pentium M was a better processor than the G4s.

Here are the tests that I found most useful. (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2648&p=1)

2. The Graphics card is considered to to very good. It does not appear to stand up to the top end NVidea but it at least puts up a fight. When looking at the prices of machines with the best one in I see that I am expecting a lot if I expect it for the price of a MacBook Pro.

Review 1 (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2632)
Review 2 (http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?head=15&page=5058)
Review 3 (http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=188)

Model 1 with NVidia (http://www.alienware.co.uk/Configurator_Pages/aurora_m7700.aspx?SysCode=PC-EU-LT-AURM7700&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT) You will have to configure it yourself, don't forget hard drive webcam etc.

3. PCExpress architecture is still cutting edge (not bleeding though) and I can't use my old cards especially the CF Card reader. A bit of a pain, but I will live.

4. I found quite a few references to the 8x DVD Burner being buggy. I can't find the links now sorry, but I had a first gen Superdrive in my Powerbook 17" and it was so prone to failure that I didn't burn a DVD for 2 years until I got an external one. I'd rather 4x and reliability. That is just an opinion and others may have different experiences.

5. The RAM speed matches the FSB. Now that seems to be a good thing. Plus Crucial is only charge £100.00 for the extra GB. So that is an option. I also love the fact that Apple's 1GB standard uses a single slot (1.83 GHz).

6. Webcam. There have been good arguments here against the webcam and for the record I agree that it should be an option. I would order it though and so for me the argument is a semantic one.

7. I love the power cable. Maybe a small reason but I have been through 3 power adapters in 3 years because of the cable.This may be a saving of £180.

8. My wife and I often have the Powerbook on the end of the bed on holiday with the family to watch a DVD. On a desk with a remote would be nicer. Small but just right for me. I occassionally do presentations at work and again this is useful. FrontRow does what I need.

9. The lack of modem pains me slightly. I have to admit that I have only used it half a dozen times in 3 years but it was good to have. A seperate one is OK but I have 2 issues with that. Firstly I will never get around to buying it because I will forget until it is too late. Secondly, whenever I go away I always forget to pack something and it would just be another thing to potentially miss.

10. Battery life. My first gen 17" PB has a max battery life of 2.5 hours. An improvement on that is fine for me. I can understand other protests but they are not relevant.

11. If there is a hardware bug in the new DUOs my warranty will cover it. A risk that I am willing to run.

So in truth, the MacBook Pro maybe a rushed design job (i.e. the way it looks), but the Processor, GPU, core architecture and OS are great and well beyond what I currently have. The rumour that there was supposed to be more but was pulled at the last minute only appeals to my 'Oh I'd love to have whatever that is' instinct, but I have no identified requirements beyond what is currently there.

The speculation of a tablet hold absolutely no interest. I hate tablets. Apple would probably be better but I would want Rev 1 anyway.

So in conclusion, I have replaced my order and am extemely happy to wait for something that meets all of my needs and more.

mpw
Jan 13, 2006, 11:37 AM
...I have replaced my order...

Can I ask where you've placed your order and how much they're charging?

jacobj
Jan 13, 2006, 11:52 AM
Can I ask where you've placed your order and how much they're charging?

IQ and I upgraded to 120GB HD. All for £1595 = Apple price + £22. A premium that I am willing to accept.

grahamtriggs
Jan 13, 2006, 01:38 PM
Oh and as for the isight. God people. There is a simple solution that I've seen in multiple sites. Take a hammer and a very small nail and drive it into the CCD. Yes it blemishes the cellphone/laptop but it solves the problem.

But a BTO would take about $50-$100 off the price - why pay that much for something to just destroy it?

Am I also the only one that sees a practical problem with having a FIXED camera in the case? PC laptops usually swivel mount it. With an iSight you can change the direction. But the iMac / MacBook cameras are fixed.

ZorPrime
Jan 13, 2006, 02:44 PM
So in truth, the MacBook Pro maybe a rushed design job (i.e. the way it looks), but the Processor, GPU, core architecture and OS are great and well beyond what I currently have. The rumour that there was supposed to be more but was pulled at the last minute only appeals to my 'Oh I'd love to have whatever that is' instinct, but I have no identified requirements beyond what is currently there.

The speculation of a tablet hold absolutely no interest. I hate tablets. Apple would probably be better but I would want Rev 1 anyway.

So in conclusion, I have replaced my order and am extemely happy to wait for something that meets all of my needs and more.

I really enjoyed reading your post and I think you made the perfect point: You got what you did based upon research and what your assessed needs are. :) Also most importantly, the machine you got is substantially faster than what you had/currently are using so you can't loose. :cool: :)

Mr Maui
Jan 13, 2006, 02:52 PM
But a BTO would take about $50-$100 off the price - why pay that much for something to just destroy it?

Am I also the only one that sees a practical problem with having a FIXED camera in the case? PC laptops usually swivel mount it. With an iSight you can change the direction. But the iMac / MacBook cameras are fixed.

The camera is a bonus. It is in the computer at no greater a cost than previous models. An iSight can be added as an option if desired. Additionally, Apple is adding this to appeal to those who wanted one. The PC cameras that swivel are probably not encased in 1" thick cases with 1/4" screens, though I suppose I could be wrong. Feel free to supply links to the models you are referencing. If the camera is not wanted ... instead of piercing camera with a nail, a small piece of tape can be used to cover it. JMO

grahamtriggs
Jan 13, 2006, 03:37 PM
The camera is a bonus. It is in the computer at no greater a cost than previous models. An iSight can be added as an option if desired. Additionally, Apple is adding this to appeal to those who wanted one. The PC cameras that swivel are probably not encased in 1" thick cases with 1/4" screens, though I suppose I could be wrong. Feel free to supply links to the models you are referencing. If the camera is not wanted ... instead of piercing camera with a nail, a small piece of tape can be used to cover it. JMO

The machine may not cost more than the previous one, but there is NO such thing as a freebie - everything that goes into the machine has a cost, and the price you pay has to exceed that to make a profit.

No, the PC laptops aren't 1" thick - quite frankly, I don't care... on my list of priorities for a laptop, the thickness is way, way down. Processing power, size/resolution of screen, noise, memory, hdd, connectivity, battery life, weight are all far more important.

I suggested from announced PC laptops that the MacBook is carrying something like a $600 premium based on similar specs. It would be interesting to see a MacBook with identical specs - processing, memory, screen, battery, etc. - absolutely identical spec, build and weight - except for one difference, the thickness. So the 1" model is the current $2499, and the otherwise identical 1.75" thick model was available for $1899. I wonder what would sell more?

grahamtriggs
Jan 13, 2006, 03:51 PM
1. The Intel Core Duo is really a very good processor. It outperforms the Pentium M in many respects and we all know that the Pentium M was a better processor than the G4s.

It is a good processor - but from what I've seen it appears to be about the same speed as the PowerPC's at the clock speed. Dual core G4's are available - if only they were built on a 65nm process, to compete with power/heat.

4. I found quite a few references to the 8x DVD Burner being buggy. I can't find the links now sorry, but I had a first gen Superdrive in my Powerbook 17" and it was so prone to failure that I didn't burn a DVD for 2 years until I got an external one. I'd rather 4x and reliability. That is just an opinion and others may have different experiences.

I would refer to my other comments about thickness - I don't need a laptop to be 1" thick, so it would be a much better tradeoff IMHO to have a reliable DL burner (and more connectivity) with trayloading / greater thickness if necessary.

5. The RAM speed matches the FSB. Now that seems to be a good thing. Plus Crucial is only charge £100.00 for the extra GB. So that is an option. I also love the fact that Apple's 1GB standard uses a single slot (1.83 GHz).

Not necessarily - the FSB carries all communication between the CPU and the rest of the system. That is actually more than just the main memory, so there are benefits to having a faster FSB - although obviously you want all communication lines to be as fast as possible (however, there may be timing issues between mismatched buses).

7. I love the power cable. Maybe a small reason but I have been through 3 power adapters in 3 years because of the cable.This may be a saving of £180.

I've had problems in the past, but that is with the actual cable, not the connector or it's rigid fixing to the computer. The new connector doesn't have much relevance to me, but I won't decry it - although it won't fix the problems that I've had with the power cable in the past.

ThinkingMac
Jan 14, 2006, 05:06 AM
As a photojournalist using Canon pro digital cameras that produce RAW files as large as 17 Megs each and having to import and process them quickly I get the feeling that Apple is out to kill me !!!

I need a very powerful laptop with very good battery life and rock solid software that makes aqqistaion and postproduction smooth and fast.

I went to the Apple store in New York City for a seminar on Aperture by a vice president from Apple (sorry forgot his name) the place was packed. This guys stands in front of more than 100 photographers and say’s that for Aperture the licence is good for two Macs so you can run on your laptop and your main powermac (if you are lucky enough to have one). So $500 later, what do I find? Only one licence and software that frankly is not even to beta quality. So what's this got to do with the new MacBook Pro?


The replacement card bus slot is to small for CF card readers and all the pro cameras use CF cards.

Aperture is such a slug it needs loads of horsepower to run it, like quad core powermac with the top video card and BAGS of RAM, yet we only get 2 gigs max on this laptop and no BTO for the max speed processor.

In the field we need to make very large DvD back ups… what we get are slow small capacity drives.

Now when we get home we need to move all that data on to high capacity fast Firewire drives, Aperture will not even recognise other types. So out I go and purchase 5 brand new 1TB FireWire 800 drives to hold my archive.

So along comes Apple and takes away my FW800 port !!

:eek: Give me a break !! I moved to Mac’s to make my life easier.

Counter
Jan 14, 2006, 08:45 AM
I think the iSight addition was just a very easy, and suprisingly "oooohhh" welcomed, bullet point in Steve's keynote.

Whether you like it or not is down to preference I think. For me, a top of the line laptop shouldn't have a camera stuck to it.

But I'm looking at it from the angle of somebody who doesn't need it.

Maybe it will be a godsend for those...doing...video conferences...while...on the move!

rugonnaeatthat
Jan 14, 2006, 08:57 AM
As a photojournalist using Canon pro digital cameras that produce RAW files as large as 17 Megs each and having to import and process them quickly I get the feeling that Apple is out to kill me !!!

I need a very powerful laptop with very good battery life and rock solid software that makes aqqistaion and postproduction smooth and fast.

I went to the Apple store in New York City for a seminar on Aperture by a vice president from Apple (sorry forgot his name) the place was packed. This guys stands in front of more than 100 photographers and say’s that for Aperture the licence is good for two Macs so you can run on your laptop and your main powermac (if you are lucky enough to have one). So $500 later, what do I find? Only one licence and software that frankly is not even to beta quality. So what's this got to do with the new MacBook Pro?


The replacement card bus slot is to small for CF card readers and all the pro cameras use CF cards.

Aperture is such a slug it needs loads of horsepower to run it, like quad core powermac with the top video card and BAGS of RAM, yet we only get 2 gigs max on this laptop and no BTO for the max speed processor.

In the field we need to make very large DvD back ups… what we get are slow small capacity drives.

Now when we get home we need to move all that data on to high capacity fast Firewire drives, Aperture will not even recognise other types. So out I go and purchase 5 brand new 1TB FireWire 800 drives to hold my archive.

So along comes Apple and takes away my FW800 port !!

:eek: Give me a break !! I moved to Mac’s to make my life easier.

Thats tough. wont the drives still work on the FW400? It is still bloody fast. Also, whilst not ideal but I'm sure someone will come out with a DVD burner that you'll be able to put into the Macbook at a later date. Same goes for bigger RAM modules - you wouldn't want too many more slots or the thing would stop being a laptop...

Hopefully with Apeture, Apple has taken a bigger stake in pro photographer market - and listening to your needs! I hope someone at apple is reading these forums.

rugonnaeatthat
Jan 14, 2006, 09:03 AM
there is a lot of bad things said about the isight so I thought I'd just put in a bit of a support post for the old girl - I have a brother in Japan and use the ichat video conference semi regularly - it is really good technology. I feel like I'm in the next room. The picture quality is great and the delay seems less than video chats.

For all those who say you don't/wont use it - just imagine when everyone actually has one! At the moment it seems that no one has one, but when everyone has the option I guarantee you will use it even if it's once a year at a Christmas day lunch to say hello to those who couldn't make it.

skunkworks
Jan 14, 2006, 09:24 AM
Apple has made tremendous strides to get a laptop with a lot more speed and still people are complaining. You cannot buy a mac and compare it to another laptop with the same specs because a mac is a mac is a mac, period!
I for one am totally glad apple has made this move because I will have the best of both operating systems.

Bought a new imac ! !

skunkworks
Jan 14, 2006, 09:26 AM
If you look around all other laptops with yonah processors, approx. 3 hours of battery life.

Platform
Jan 14, 2006, 10:50 AM
If you look around all other laptops with yonah processors, approx. 3 hours of battery life.

Sorry but

Acer TravelMate 8200 Specs

* Intel Core Duo 2.0GHz processor (Intel Yonah processor)
* 2GB RAM 533/677
* 15.4" WXGA screen
* Seagate 120GB 5400rpm SATA Hard Drive
* ATI Radeon X1600 256MB (256 dedicated while 256MB can be borrowed from main memory)
* DVD-DL Burner
* Built-in 1.3 Mega pixel camera, with 225-degree swivel ability
* New Intel Pro wireless 3945 a/b/g
* Built-in VOIP capability
* Weight of 6.6lbs
* Approximately 6 hours of batterylife (87W 7800mAH )
* Carbon Fiber finish lid

Peace
Jan 14, 2006, 11:27 AM
Sorry but

If you did more research you would know that the "6 hours" is using TWO batteries.

# Dimensions & Weight
# 14.3" (364.0mm) W x 10.7" (271.0mm) D x 1.0" (26.3mm) H
# 6.6 lb. (3.0kg) with optical drive installed

Power
# 90-watt AC adapter
# Lithium ion batteries:

* Nine-cell - up to 3.5 hours life depending on configuration and usage
* Optional secondary six-cell - up to 2.0 hours life depending on configuration and usage
* Both batteries - 80% charge in 1.0 hour, 2.0 hours recharge time with power off, 2.5 hours with power on


http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/acer_travelmate_8200_laptop.html

VanMac
Jan 14, 2006, 11:53 AM
Well, I'm pretty impressed with this MacBook Pro.

Sure, it is missing a few things, but certainly a stellar improvement.

For all those that have been whining for the last year about a G5 PowerBook, you now have something twice as fast as the G5.

Looking forward to the rest of the lineups moving to Intel.

millermi
Jan 14, 2006, 11:58 AM
I have an ibook and the heat issue is not too bad with it. I have heard that the powerbooks are quite a bit hotter. Is it very likely that the new Macbook PROs will be ever hotter or will they be cooler?

LGRW3919
Jan 14, 2006, 12:19 PM
Well, I'm pretty impressed with this MacBook Pro.

Sure, it is missing a few things, but certainly a stellar improvement.

For all those that have been whining for the last year about a G5 PowerBook, you now have something twice as fast as the G5.

Looking forward to the rest of the lineups moving to Intel.

it won't be twice as fast as a G5- usually in real world tests the improvement rates are lower than SPEC tests (the ones that apple is advertising + were in the keynote)

VanMac
Jan 14, 2006, 12:32 PM
it won't be twice as fast as a G5- usually in real world tests the improvement rates are lower than SPEC tests (the ones that apple is advertising + were in the keynote)

The processor itself will be approx 2x as fast as a G5.

Regardless of actual real world tests, it is better then a G5. As many had been hoping for a G5, I would say this is a great improvement.

grahamtriggs
Jan 14, 2006, 12:47 PM
The processor itself will be approx 2x as fast as a G5.

Regardless of actual real world tests, it is better then a G5. As many had been hoping for a G5, I would say this is a great improvement.

No it won't - in fact, the SPEC tests ought to tell you that, as they isolate the processor (whereas others may be more of a measure of the system as a whole).

From what I've seen, the Core Duo is about as fast as a Dual Core G5 at the same clock speed (apart from the AltiVec...)

As for the benchmarks they've shown, bear three things in mind:

1) The MBP was running at 1.83Ghz, the PowerBook 1.67Ghz

2) The MBP has a dual core processor, the PowerBook a single core

3) The MBP has a 667Mhz bus, the Powerbook 167Mhz.

From what has been said about Freescale's dual core G4, that would have put up a very interesting fight (theoretically at least as fast as the MBP).

You could say the same for the iMac - they could (theoretically) have done a dual core G5 system with higher bus / clock speeds than the Core Duo.

Raveny
Jan 14, 2006, 01:05 PM
I don't think the Mac Book Pro design was rushed... There was so much time to design a new case and it shouldn't be a problem to put all the stuff in it, because a notebook has not much room for crazy ideas. It doesn't make any difference if the enclosure is black with carbon or anything else. At the end the enclosure is 1" thin about 15" wide etc...
The AluBook has a great design, which IMO will stay a little longer like a Thinkpad. I can't think of a better design.. perhaps Liquid Metal but this is too heaby. Carbon Fiber feels like plastic and it does only look good if it's "brushed".

.jacob
Jan 14, 2006, 01:20 PM
Ok, I'm gonna order this thing later tonight.

mongoos150
Jan 14, 2006, 01:40 PM
To the person speaking of Aperture - check out Adobe Lightroom. It's in beta, it's free, and it kicks the pants off Aperture.

50548
Jan 14, 2006, 01:59 PM
If you did more research you would know that the "6 hours" is using TWO batteries.

# Dimensions & Weight
# 14.3" (364.0mm) W x 10.7" (271.0mm) D x 1.0" (26.3mm) H
# 6.6 lb. (3.0kg) with optical drive installed

Power
# 90-watt AC adapter
# Lithium ion batteries:

* Nine-cell - up to 3.5 hours life depending on configuration and usage
* Optional secondary six-cell - up to 2.0 hours life depending on configuration and usage
* Both batteries - 80% charge in 1.0 hour, 2.0 hours recharge time with power off, 2.5 hours with power on


http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/acer_travelmate_8200_laptop.html

Hahaha, that was fun...thanks for the laugh!

DVK916
Jan 14, 2006, 02:21 PM
No it won't - in fact, the SPEC tests ought to tell you that, as they isolate the processor (whereas others may be more of a measure of the system as a whole).

From what I've seen, the Core Duo is about as fast as a Dual Core G5 at the same clock speed (apart from the AltiVec...)

As for the benchmarks they've shown, bear three things in mind:

1) The MBP was running at 1.83Ghz, the PowerBook 1.67Ghz

2) The MBP has a dual core processor, the PowerBook a single core

3) The MBP has a 667Mhz bus, the Powerbook 167Mhz.

From what has been said about Freescale's dual core G4, that would have put up a very interesting fight (theoretically at least as fast as the MBP).

You could say the same for the iMac - they could (theoretically) have done a dual core G5 system with higher bus / clock speeds than the Core Duo.

I disagree, the Core Duo is much faster than a G5 per clock, even with AltiVec.

Peace
Jan 14, 2006, 02:28 PM
Hahaha, that was fun...thanks for the laugh!

Glad you enjoyed it ;)

sphereboy
Jan 14, 2006, 06:40 PM
To the person speaking of Aperture - check out Adobe Lightroom. It's in beta, it's free, and it kicks the pants off Aperture.

i don't mean to go off topic. but i just have to say, that after using aperture and then trying out lightroom, i feel that adobe still has a lot of catching up to do. Aperture is no comparison to Lightroom.

Lightroom feels like the Help section of Adobe. It will probably be a great tool, but right now it certainly feels 'beta'.

absurdio
Jan 14, 2006, 09:11 PM
I'm simultaneously impressed and disappointed. The speed boost is mind-boggling. And the MBP is (theoretically) 4 to 5 times faster than the 1.67GHz PBs. My 15" PB is about 2 and a half years old and only 1GHz. So the speed on the MBPs blows this old guy out of the water.

The built-in isight is ugly and strikes me as sortof tacky. From Apple's point of view, it makes all the sense in the world to include it. The only complaint anyone could have had about Apple's video-conferencing technology was that nobody used it. Now that everybody with an iBook or an MBP is going to have an iSight (whether they want one or not), the usage of iChat's video-conferencing features is going to skyrocket. I still think it's ugly and unnecessary, but if I had one, I'm sure I'd use it.

Now the real complaints: All the features omitted seem to reflect a trend in Apple's recent products. I recently had to buy a new (video) ipod, because my old ipod broke. I'm generally happy with the thing, but I also had no complaints about my old (and comparatively clunky 3G ipod). What irritates me about the new ipod (and the new MBP) is the omission of firewire support in the name of creating a thinner product. Don't get me wrong, thin is great. But i never had a problem with the size of my older 3G ipod, and i certainly would have preferred the video ipods be a little bit thicker and maintain firewire support. Similarly, I'd be much happier if the MBP were say 1.1 inches thick or even 1.2 inches thick if that meant maintaining features like firewire 800, 8x superdrive, screen resolution, built in modem, etc., etc. Thin is great, no doubt, but how many features are they going to declare "unnecessary" in the name of slimming things down further? Next they'll be shipping 0.2 inch thick PBs/MBPs that have no displays or keypads because those features are too thick.

I certainly wouldn't mind if somebody handed me a new MBP, but I'm also not racing to buy one. It's getting to be about time to replace this PB (it's still titanium! remember those, guys?), and it's seen better days. Still the first generation of MBP is not gonna cut it. Maybe by the second version they'll work out details like battery life, screen resolution, superdrive, and so on. Hell, maybe they'll figure out how to make that IR remote bluetooth by then, too, and get rid of the ugly IR sensor. It looks like they're off to a pretty good start, but I've got my fingers crossed for Rev B.

SuperThread
Jan 14, 2006, 10:29 PM
I disagree, the Core Duo is much faster than a G5 per clock, even with AltiVec.

Care to give a reason why?

The SPEC tests on Apple's website show that the iMac can do roughly twice the floating point and three times the integer calculations of the old G5. Dividing those statistics by two ('cause the Duo is dual core) results in equal or 1.5 times the performance. That's not really a huge leap, and I'm willing to bet that, in the cases when it can use AltiVec, the G5 does significantly *better* than the Duo.

Next they'll be shipping 0.2 inch thick PBs/MBPs that have no displays or keypads because those features are too thick.

They already do. (http://www.apple.com/macmini/)

Platform
Jan 14, 2006, 10:49 PM
If you did more research you would know that the "6 hours" is using TWO batteries.

# Dimensions & Weight
# 14.3" (364.0mm) W x 10.7" (271.0mm) D x 1.0" (26.3mm) H
# 6.6 lb. (3.0kg) with optical drive installed

Power
# 90-watt AC adapter
# Lithium ion batteries:

* Nine-cell - up to 3.5 hours life depending on configuration and usage
* Optional secondary six-cell - up to 2.0 hours life depending on configuration and usage
* Both batteries - 80% charge in 1.0 hour, 2.0 hours recharge time with power off, 2.5 hours with power on


http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/acer_travelmate_8200_laptop.html

I guess yes but at least the function is there ;)

.jacob
Jan 14, 2006, 11:19 PM
I just ordered the MBP, horay for student discounts.

jacobj
Jan 15, 2006, 03:43 AM
Can someone direct me to any UK online store that sells PCExpress cards?

Platform
Jan 15, 2006, 04:01 AM
Can someone direct me to any UK online store that sells PCExpress cards?

For laptops :confused:

rugonnaeatthat
Jan 15, 2006, 09:46 PM
Thought this might help some people, from MacDailyNews:

Apple's new MacBook Pro features an ExpressCard/34 slot. This slot can be used for hot-pluggable I/O expansion cards that the Personal Computer Memory Card International Association (PCMCIA) plans as the replacement for CardBus as the preferred solution for personal computers. Uses for that ExpressCar/34 slot can (or will soon) include such solutons as: TV tuners, hot pluggable FireWire 800 adapters, extra FireWire 400 port(s), Bluetooth mobile phone connectivity products, CompactFlash adapters, Flash memory cards, Gigabit Ethernet networking cards, External SATA (eSATA), which claims peak interface speeds up to 3 times faster than FireWire 800, and more.

read more at http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/8219/

Surreal
Jan 16, 2006, 12:06 AM
^^^^^

yeah...it's been mentioned.


if anything though, i want an sata card ... that would be...delicious. that and a firewire 800 port INSTEAD of a 400 port. ...that would be doubly delicious

zync
Jan 16, 2006, 12:51 AM
Bitching: Its what's for dinner, breakfast, lunch, brunch, snacks, etc. The nit picking that is being done is unreal. Possibly even surreal. Seriously. Dell puts out a craptastic update you don't see 8 bagillion posts about it online. Apple puts out an update, that it’s been criticized forever for not doing, and all people do is bitch. Are there some features missing? Sure. Take the link above. Bitching about having an 85 vs. the old 65 watt AC adapters? To quote the author: OMGWTF?
The only key thing missing is the DL burner and I suspect it’s because there are probably no laptop sized DL DVD-RW SATA burners on the market. I guess Apple could have make a cheap *** system and mixed EIDE in with SATA but they probably decided it’s better to move the entire system to SATA. In no way shape or form am I going to fault them for that. Then there is FW800. This can and will be available via ExpressCard in probably less then 6 months. The truth is there are only a handful of devices that REALLY take advantage of FW800. It’s not as if FW400 is slow either.
Sounds like people are bitching for the sake of bitching. Apple gave you a faster system. **** already or at the very least trim the complaints down to a reasonable level: DL DVD-RW is really the only legit complaint in the list. Crap if Apple hadn’t announced this thing people would be bitching about that as well.

IIRC it was bitching that got us this update in the first place. Bitching is what drives the market. People complain about something, they fix it and sell it back to us. That's how basic economics works.

I wish, just wish, that people can stop just saying "look they gave us an update quit bitching and be happy," and actually look at the updates with an objective eye. It's not bitching, it's pointing out flaws.

Let me give you a more obvious example. Let's say Apple gave us a dual core 2.5GHz G5 in the new PowerBook and they even kept the FW800 and FW400 ports. They then removed a USB port so we'd only have one and they gave us the same 2x SL DVD burner that's in my PowerBook. They then gave us the same 64MB video card my PowerBook has. They come with the same standard 1GB of RAM and 100GB 5400 RPM SATA drive.

If Apple produced that people would say OMG look it's 5x faster and it's got a G5! They said they couldn't do it but they did! Oh, it's only got a 2x SL DVD burner, oh well I never produce DVDs anyway. It's only got one USB port? Well I really only use my mouse, if I need my printer I can unplug the mouse. 64MB video card? How often do I really play games or render video? Sweet SATA too!? I'm sold, let me just lift out my heavy wallet.

You know what I'd say to that computer? It's only got a 2x drive, not enough USB ports, and the video card is severely lacking.

Now, from the top, let's stop name calling and start learning how to be objective and respect other people's opinions, shall we?

zync
Jan 16, 2006, 01:38 AM
I don't know what I said but you're welcome. :o :)

Once again, I totally agree with you. :cool: In addition to what You and Surreal have accurately stated, I have yet to meet a Video pro that would prefer SL over DL DVD capability. I got my 17" PB with a DL a couple of months ago, specifically because I didn’t want a Rev A intel Mac, and it has already paid for itself over and over.

I was on a 4-day business trip, to meet with a new client who wanted some promotional video postproduction done, culminating in a DVD they could package for a product launch. To make a long story short, with my "out-dated" G4 PowerBook and my client's "useless" FW800 hard drives enabled me to produce a demo two hour enhanced Standard Definition DVD with multiple angle tracks, subtitles, dolby audio voiceovers in three languages, that was just shy of 8.5 gigs. I secured the contract worth just under $10k USD from that one business trip. My "obsolete" G4 with its Dual Layer DVD made me some nice "Gs" (aka $$s), so I guess it's not completely useless. :cool: If I had a MacBook Pro, I wouldn't have been able to burn the DL DVD that won me the contract and a new client. :D

Nice :) See that everybody? A PowerBook Pro* would have cost him TWELVE GRAND! Two to buy it and 10 in sales!

*I'm not using it's stupid name

zync
Jan 16, 2006, 01:43 AM
Does anybody else out there wish that Apple would release a MacBook Pro without the iSight built-in? That little camera is all that is stopping my employer from allowing me to get one for work. Sometimes working in the defense industry has its disadvantages.

Hickman

God yes, then it would at least look a little bit better. Probably would add about 60px to the screen real-estate too. That is 60x1440.

A thought... wouldn't it be nice if the remote was designed to hide in the Express card slot... instead of having to carry it around with you? Correct me if I'm wrong but there is a bit of space in there.

BTW - well done Siliconaddict for your post on the previous page. You hit it on the head as far as Apples Hardware design and OS integration are concerned. It's all about the compromises and the thought/wisdom gone into the compromises.

Meanwhile I really value the inclusion of ilife - usually buying it each year anyhow for my older macs. So this constitutes added value for me and wasn't much mentioned with the Acer comparison.

It'd be even nicer if they had done the smart thing and made it a bluetooth remote instead of an IR remote. Then it might actually be useful and not put an ugly RF receiver on the laptop. You probably can't turn off the RF ability either so you'd be wasting battery, albeit a small amount.

sunfast
Jan 16, 2006, 04:45 AM
Considering how features dropped in the MBP for space reasons (DL superdrive, FW 800 etc) how much more do we stand to lose in the potential 12"/13.3" MacBook Pro (or whatever it gets called)?

I'm holding out for a small pro notebook but I'd want it to have most of the features the MBP is sporting. Wishful thinking?

GregA
Jan 16, 2006, 04:56 AM
IIRC it was bitching that got us this update in the first place. Bitching is what drives the market. People complain about something, they fix it and sell it back to us. That's how basic economics works.Basic economics works because people buy the product they like. And a company that produces a bad product doesn't survive. In theory.

It is obvious that more and more people believe the way to get more is to complain louder. It's an unfortunate belief. Personally I prefer the friendly approach, and do my best to use it and to help people who use it.

Anyway, I'd guess that as long as you're buying the product, the bean-counters don't care if you smile or complain.

robbieduncan
Jan 16, 2006, 05:07 AM
Can someone direct me to any UK online store that sells PCExpress cards?

You mean ExpressCard/34 right?

hatter
Jan 16, 2006, 06:18 AM
Well, after a quick look for reasons not to, I ordered mine the morning after release (UK time). I've burnt two DL dvds in my life - an average of one for each writer I own. So I can live without that, though I wouldn't have said no. FW800 seems a curious omission too, but I don't have anything that uses it, neither will most users (even most of those with 800-capable enclosures but slower devices inside) so I can probably cope with 400 for a year or two. And I'm not impressed with the integration with the iSight, it's not a showstopper, but its functionality is minimal, and its design is rather lacking.

But my biggest WTF ? The modem - what are all you guys on ? Some places don't have wifi or broadband ? Well duh, but I carry a modem everywhere with me anyway. No, not a horrible wired one, but if your mobile/cell phone can't get you nice speedy gprs, or even voice-grade data (and of course voice and fax services) then how can you claim such connectivity is vital to you ? Hotels aren't exactly cheap for phone usage, at a push you can use it internationally - yes it costs more, but you don't need some weird adaptor to plug it into the foreign phone jack. And no cables to get tangled, the beauty of bluetooth. Carrying my phone with me is something I'd do regardless, there can't be many people who'd take a laptop somewhere but not their mobile.

In my defence, I know I'm joining a bit of a beta programme, I'll take that risk, and if anything's dire, I trust apple to fix that for me. I've been waiting 2 years to commit to apple hardware, if they'd given me a g5 powerbook I may have taken a little longer to decide whether I need a new lappie now, but still maybe not. Roll on February, 1.83GHz and 120GB,

jacobj
Jan 16, 2006, 06:23 AM
Well, after a quick look for reasons not to, I ordered mine the morning after release (UK time). I've burnt two DL dvds in my life - an average of one for each writer I own. So I can live without that, though I wouldn't have said no. FW800 seems a curious omission too, but I don't have anything that uses it, neither will most users (even most of those with 800-capable enclosures but slower devices inside) so I can probably cope with 400 for a year or two. And I'm not impressed with the integration with the iSight, it's not a showstopper, but its functionality is minimal, and its design is rather lacking.

But my biggest WTF ? The modem - what are all you guys on ? Some places don't have wifi or broadband ? Well duh, but I carry a modem everywhere with me anyway. No, not a horrible wired one, but if your mobile/cell phone can't get you nice speedy gprs, or even voice-grade data (and of course voice and fax services) then how can you claim such connectivity is vital to you ? Hotels aren't exactly cheap for phone usage, at a push you can use it internationally - yes it costs more, but you don't need some weird adaptor to plug it into the foreign phone jack. And no cables to get tangled, the beauty of bluetooth. Carrying my phone with me is something I'd do regardless, there can't be many people who'd take a laptop somewhere but not their mobile.

In my defence, I know I'm joining a bit of a beta programme, I'll take that risk, and if anything's dire, I trust apple to fix that for me. I've been waiting 2 years to commit to apple hardware, if they'd given me a g5 powerbook I may have taken a little longer to decide whether I need a new lappie now, but still maybe not. Roll on February, 1.83GHz and 120GB,

That is an awful decision.. I think you've made a big mistake :eek: ;)

SiliconAddict
Jan 16, 2006, 07:58 AM
No it won't - in fact, the SPEC tests ought to tell you that, as they isolate the processor (whereas others may be more of a measure of the system as a whole).

From what I've seen, the Core Duo is about as fast as a Dual Core G5 at the same clock speed (apart from the AltiVec...)

As for the benchmarks they've shown, bear three things in mind:

1) The MBP was running at 1.83Ghz, the PowerBook 1.67Ghz

2) The MBP has a dual core processor, the PowerBook a single core

3) The MBP has a 667Mhz bus, the Powerbook 167Mhz.

From what has been said about Freescale's dual core G4, that would have put up a very interesting fight (theoretically at least as fast as the MBP).

You could say the same for the iMac - they could (theoretically) have done a dual core G5 system with higher bus / clock speeds than the Core Duo.

Who gives a flying **** about the G4. The G4 or its Freescale brother is dead. Steve shot it in the head and it fell head first off the pier. Its gone. Forget the thing and move on.


I'm simultaneously impressed and disappointed. The speed boost is mind-boggling. And the MBP is (theoretically) 4 to 5 times faster than the 1.67GHz PBs. My 15" PB is about 2 and a half years old and only 1GHz. So the speed on the MBPs blows this old guy out of the water.
.


No it detonates a 30 kiloton nuke in your boat is what it does. :p :D ;)

SiliconAddict
Jan 16, 2006, 08:08 AM
IIRC it was bitching that got us this update in the first place. Bitching is what drives the market. People complain about something, they fix it and sell it back to us. That's how basic economics works.

I wish, just wish, that people can stop just saying "look they gave us an update quit bitching and be happy," and actually look at the updates with an objective eye. It's not bitching, it's pointing out flaws.

Let me give you a more obvious example. Let's say Apple gave us a dual core 2.5GHz G5 in the new PowerBook and they even kept the FW800 and FW400 ports. They then removed a USB port so we'd only have one and they gave us the same 2x SL DVD burner that's in my PowerBook. They then gave us the same 64MB video card my PowerBook has. They come with the same standard 1GB of RAM and 100GB 5400 RPM SATA drive.

If Apple produced that people would say OMG look it's 5x faster and it's got a G5! They said they couldn't do it but they did! Oh, it's only got a 2x SL DVD burner, oh well I never produce DVDs anyway. It's only got one USB port? Well I really only use my mouse, if I need my printer I can unplug the mouse. 64MB video card? How often do I really play games or render video? Sweet SATA too!? I'm sold, let me just lift out my heavy wallet.

You know what I'd say to that computer? It's only got a 2x drive, not enough USB ports, and the video card is severely lacking.

Now, from the top, let's stop name calling and start learning how to be objective and respect other people's opinions, shall we?

I didn't call anyone names. I'm just sick of people bitching and that IS what is going on. There is a difference between talking rationally and going "OMG this thing sucks." It doesn't suck. It's a perfectly good update. May are bitching for one and only one reason: It's an Intel system. Many people, but not all, are being overly critical because there still are those who are PPC fanatics. If you've been reading multiple forums and news posts you would see it goes WELL beyond critiquing the new PowerBooks*. This is bitching to make you PPC system feel superior. I've already read some threads that are fair and ballancedTM this thread is NOT one of them. When you are at 1170 some odd posts. Yah I hink not.

jbouklas
Jan 16, 2006, 10:23 AM
Considering how features dropped in the MBP for space reasons (DL superdrive, FW 800 etc) how much more do we stand to lose in the potential 12"/13.3" MacBook Pro (or whatever it gets called)?

I'm holding out for a small pro notebook but I'd want it to have most of the features the MBP is sporting. Wishful thinking?

No. FW800 was not included because it is not a function of Intel's 945 or whatever chipset Apple is using right now. Yes, the SL drive is due to space constraints.

I'm going to say that I generally agree with SiliconAddict when he says that nobody is really looking at this objectively. I can't believe that everybody who is complaining about the lack of an internal modem has actually used one in the past 12 months. If you have, get an adapter and stop complaining. This is a very insignificant issue. For the umpteenth time, just for fun, I will say this again: The MacBook Pro Has S-Video Out. It is on a $20 adapter. Buy it and have fun. I bought a very similar adapter for my (almost) 3 year old iBook, and it works very well. Again, stop complaining about a problem that doesn't exist. You have every right to complain about the lack of a DL drive, because I see that as kind of important. DL media is still expensive now, as SL media was once. But prices drop, as SL prices have. I remember when it was $4 a DVD-R, then $2, then $1, and now they be had for like $.25 for a decent brand. The same is happening for DL media, I think you can find them for $2 a disc if you look, and soon they'll drop. I am seriously considering this machine, and I'll tell you right off the bat a SL vs DL drive will not make or break the deal for me. It would be annoying to not be able to utilize a fairly common technology in my laptop a year or two down the line, since I'll likely use this as my main machine (replacing my desktop G5 and almost dead iBook) for the next 3 to 4 years (which, I know, is ages).

To go back to a previous mention of benchmarks: prepare to be shocked, but APPLE LIES WITH BENCHMARKS. Many companies do, but it's easier for Apple since they're comparing two different platforms. When the G5 came out, it "blew Intel out of the water," according to Apple's benchmarks. Of course, when the benchmarks were conducted, they didn't allow any Intel optimizations on whatever compiler they were using to get the results, while the G5 test was optimized to the point where it didn't reflect real world results. Now that Macs have Intel chips and they want to show how much faster they are than the old G5s, Apple allowed all the Intel-specific optimizations and didn't as fully optimize the G5 tests. So, benchmarks lie. The question remains, which is the bigger lie: is the G5 faster than the Core Duo? Absolutely not. Watt for watt and MHz for MHz, the Duo is a better chip. It's faster than the G5 at comparable clock speeds and runs a hell of a lot cooler. There's no comparison.

I guess that's about it.

-Jim

smeagol
Jan 16, 2006, 10:33 AM
The new MacBook Pro is not expensive.. they are no more expensive than PBs 6 months ago.
- G4 processors are dirt cheap, Yonah processors are more expensive.
- x4 - 5 times the speed of G4
- far better graphics card
- digital audio out on all models
- larger display

The PowerBooks are slow and showing their age, thus apple had to drop them to CA$23K.

As for iBooks - I'm a bit disappointed, but what processor could they put in there? There are no single core Yonahs yet, only dual.


I believe that the iBook line may continue using the G4 processor for some time. Remember when the Powerbook first came out, the iBook carried a G3 for a while before making the transition to G4. But we also have to remember that Stevie is transitioning the entire Mac lineup to intel which would probably mean them getting the slower, low power version of the chip to be released later this year.

Also of note is that many Core Duo processors announced at CES were 2GHz, Apple tops out at 1.83GHz. Are they saving the 2GHz model for the 17" Macbook Pro, or will there be an update to the 15.4" a little later in the year.

Also note that, when the 17" and 12" alu books came out, we had to wait a long time for the 15" to be updated to alu status. Now the 15" got the spotlight first, how long before we see 17" and 12"/13" Macbooks?

sphereboy
Jan 16, 2006, 10:58 AM
Also of note is that many Core Duo processors announced at CES were 2GHz, Apple tops out at 1.83GHz. Are they saving the 2GHz model for the 17" Macbook Pro, or will there be an update to the 15.4" a little later in the year.

I will put my money on Apple holding back on faster Core Duo processors until later this year. From my experience since converting to Mac, I have seen that Apple likes to milk their users for all they are worth by holding back as long as they can, only to make updates after 3-4 months of the product being out. I wouldn't be surprised to see an update to these new MacBooks to top out at 2GHz and maybe a top of the line at 2.33GHz.

With Apple having such a small market share, they have to try to make as much money as possible. So with everyone jumping on the bandwagon with this new MacBook, Apple is laughing all the way to the bank.

MBP is a great machine, but it could have been better. But if it were better then what would we be complaining about and waiting for the next update? .. Nothing.

So my point is, YES they are waiting to put a faster Core Duo on the next Book line.

mpw
Jan 16, 2006, 11:04 AM
...For the umpteenth time... ... The MacBook Pro Has S-Video Out. It is on a $20 adapter.... ...I bought a very similar adapter for my... ...3 year old iBook...
Now this almost certainly isn't the place but you seem to know your stuff (I guess sucking-up will not hurt) but I’ve got a question;
The S-video out on my iBook doesn’t handle the audio, as I understand it in the A/V world DVI is fairly standard and does carry audio. So will the DVI-out on a MacBook Pro carry audio and video to an external LCD?

I just spotted a 65” HDTV at lunchtime from Sharp’s ‘Aquos’ range that would look great next to a MacBook:D

Peace
Jan 16, 2006, 11:09 AM
Now this almost certainly isn't the place but you seem to know your stuff (I guess sucking-up will not hurt) but I’ve got a question;
The S-video out on my iBook doesn’t handle the audio, as I understand it in the A/V world DVI is fairly standard and does carry audio. So will the DVI-out on a MacBook Pro carry audio and video to an external LCD?

I just spotted a 65” HDTV at lunchtime from Sharp’s ‘Aquos’ range that would look great next to a MacBook:D

I may be wrong but I don't believe DVI carries an audio signal..

DVI--Digital Video Interface

mpw
Jan 16, 2006, 11:15 AM
I may be wrong but I don't believe DVI carries an audio signal..

DVI--Digital Video Interface
You could be right but S-Video leads can carry audio between compatible products eg. camcorder > TV

jacobj
Jan 16, 2006, 11:18 AM
Now this almost certainly isn't the place but you seem to know your stuff (I guess sucking-up will not hurt) but I’ve got a question;
The S-video out on my iBook doesn’t handle the audio, as I understand it in the A/V world DVI is fairly standard and does carry audio. So will the DVI-out on a MacBook Pro carry audio and video to an external LCD?

I just spotted a 65” HDTV at lunchtime from Sharp’s ‘Aquos’ range that would look great next to a MacBook:D

How much was it and where was it?

jacobj
Jan 16, 2006, 11:26 AM
I was just browsing through articles on the net re Intel processors.. I think I linked to this one (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20040316084519.html) from MacRumors.


Sometime in mid-2005 or later Intel is anticipated to add a processor with two cores in its Pentium M family intended for notebooks. Apparently, the code-named Jonah chip is projected to contain two Dothan cores and to be made using 65nm fabrication technology. The central processing unit is said to disable the second core when functioning on battery power and will enable both cores once the computer is plugged to power outlet.

Is that true? I seem to also remember that someone said that their iMac did not have an option to configure the processor speed in the power savings settings. Now I thought and still hope that it had been removed because the machine is always plugged in, but I am starting to worry that the option is no longer there, or even worse, it is automated depending on whether I am plugged in or not. If that is the case then I have an issue.

Peace
Jan 16, 2006, 11:28 AM
You could be right but S-Video leads can carry audio between compatible products eg. camcorder > TV

You might be confusing SPDIF with S-Video as I dont believe S-video carries audio either..
Spdif does..but it's audio only..

Sony/Phillips digital interface..

I could be wrong tho! :)

jacobj
Jan 16, 2006, 11:33 AM
LMAO I thought it was not tested with firefox, because it does look like ****. Looks like they slapped it together durning the keynote. I expect better quality control from Apple, let's hope that the MacBook Pros weren't slapped together so quickly.

If people want to judge sites harshly that only render correctly in IE (rightfully so to blast these sites) then Apple should be subject to the same criticism here. And here I was thinking that only Microsoft would be arrogent enough to make a website that only renders correctly with their propritary web browser...

Be fair.. Apple have ensured that their MBP site renders correctly in Safari and IE. Who cares about firefox and the fact that it is better and more secure than IE. Apple doesn't seem to care about the 10% market share that uses Firefox. I mean firefox users are not likely to ever buy a mac are they. Only the astute IE consumer would!

mpw
Jan 16, 2006, 11:36 AM
How much was it and where was it?
CO-OP Don Street and just under £12k!

Truely awesome picture, can you imagine larger than life porn on that thing!!:D

jacobj
Jan 16, 2006, 11:37 AM
CO-OP Don Street and just under £12k!

Truely awesome picture, can you imagine larger than life porn on that thing!!:D

LMAO... are they showing HD porn as a selling point?

mpw
Jan 16, 2006, 11:40 AM
You might be confusing SPDIF with S-Video as I dont believe S-video carries audio either..
Spdif does..but it's audio only..

Sony/Phillips digital interface..

I could be wrong tho! :)
My Canon camcorder has S-Video out and my TV S-Video in and that carry audio and video, I'm sure....I think I'm sure......I think....Hmmmm.

*will check tonight*

LMAO... are they showing HD porn as a selling point?
No, but that reminds me of a time about a year ago when the 2nd hand store in New Street had TV for sale in the window and left it tuned to a SKY porn channel over-night. I was wandering home after a curry and there was a crowd of drunks steaming up the window!:D

jacobj
Jan 16, 2006, 11:42 AM
My Canon camcorder has S-Video out and my TV S-Video in and that carry audio and video, I'm sure....I think I'm sure......I think....Hmmmm.

*will check tonight*

Standard s-video is 4 pins.. if you have a seven pin s-video cable then it is not an official standard, but it may well carry audio.

~Shard~
Jan 16, 2006, 11:43 AM
LMAO... are they showing HD porn as a selling point?

They sure were playing off that angle at the AVN in Vegas last week, especially since it shared the same conference center as the CES - the perfect combination! :eek: :p :D

mark88
Jan 16, 2006, 01:55 PM
Is it me, or has the image of the macBook on http://www.apple.com/ changed and it now appears much lighter in colour?

grahamtriggs
Jan 16, 2006, 02:05 PM
I was just browsing through articles on the net re Intel processors.. I think I linked to this one (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20040316084519.html) from MacRumors.



Is that true? I seem to also remember that someone said that their iMac did not have an option to configure the processor speed in the power savings settings. Now I thought and still hope that it had been removed because the machine is always plugged in, but I am starting to worry that the option is no longer there, or even worse, it is automated depending on whether I am plugged in or not. If that is the case then I have an issue.

It's Yonah, not Jonah - and that is the range of chips launched by Intel earlier this month as featured in the MBP and iMac.

Yonah does have power saving capabilities - quite a few states of operation in fact. I don't know if there is software control over them though - I haven't seen any user options on PCs. It may be that it is entirely hardware controlled, or else it is not needed for iMacs (the only reason you would lower the clock speed is for cooling purposes).

cheekyspanky
Jan 16, 2006, 02:10 PM
Is it me, or has the image of the macBook on http://www.apple.com/ changed and it now appears much lighter in colour?

Looks like it to me..

~Shard~
Jan 16, 2006, 02:14 PM
Is it me, or has the image of the macBook on http://www.apple.com/ changed and it now appears much lighter in colour?

Good call - perhaps my eyes have been influenced now, but I think you're right...

jbouklas
Jan 16, 2006, 03:35 PM
Now this almost certainly isn't the place but you seem to know your stuff (I guess sucking-up will not hurt) but I’ve got a question;
The S-video out on my iBook doesn’t handle the audio, as I understand it in the A/V world DVI is fairly standard and does carry audio. So will the DVI-out on a MacBook Pro carry audio and video to an external LCD?

I just spotted a 65” HDTV at lunchtime from Sharp’s ‘Aquos’ range that would look great next to a MacBook:D

Hmm. I don't think S-Video or DVI carry audio. They might, but I don't think so. I can go from my PC s-video out to my TV and there'll be no audio. The same goes with DVI. Plus, a lot of places sell combo cables that do S-video and RCA audio, so I'm inclined to think that s-video does not carry audio by itself.

-Jim

jacobj
Jan 16, 2006, 03:45 PM
It's Yonah, not Jonah - and that is the range of chips launched by Intel earlier this month as featured in the MBP and iMac.

Yonah does have power saving capabilities - quite a few states of operation in fact. I don't know if there is software control over them though - I haven't seen any user options on PCs. It may be that it is entirely hardware controlled, or else it is not needed for iMacs (the only reason you would lower the clock speed is for cooling purposes).

There is good news and bad in what you say. You are right that it shouldn't be an issue for the iMac if it is hardware controlled, but it is a concern if it is hardware controlled on the MBP. If I cannot run my machine at full speed because I do not have a power outlet near by then I am concerned.

macidiot
Jan 16, 2006, 04:15 PM
You could be right but S-Video leads can carry audio between compatible products eg. camcorder > TV

afaik this is not true. The same goes for dvi. And if it is true, I've never heard of it being used.

afaik all dvi displays (televisions, projectors) are designed to use separate rca audio inputs, assuming they even have speakers. Since basically all dvi/hdmi equipped televisions are hdtv capable, and generally expensive, the assumption is that one would be using optical or coax to a surround receiver anyway.

Regarding s-video and the modem on the laptop, this seems to be fairly standard practice from Apple. S-video and modems are state of the art. For 1993. Both are legacy technologies. Apple almost always abandons legacy stuff fairly quickly(not that 10+ years is all that quick), at least compared to the pc world. Apple, and the rest of the world, is moving on from these ancient techologies. Get over it. And for the last time, if you have a need for them, buy the accessories. The whining over these 2 "features" is bordering on ridiculous. I'm waiting to hear someone bitch that it doesn't have a floppy drive, rf adapter for tv, or ADB ports... what, I can't hook up my Imagewriter II dot matrix printer? This update sucks! :p

devman
Jan 16, 2006, 08:23 PM
Now this almost certainly isn't the place but you seem to know your stuff (I guess sucking-up will not hurt) but I’ve got a question;
The S-video out on my iBook doesn’t handle the audio, as I understand it in the A/V world DVI is fairly standard and does carry audio. So will the DVI-out on a MacBook Pro carry audio and video to an external LCD?

I just spotted a 65” HDTV at lunchtime from Sharp’s ‘Aquos’ range that would look great next to a MacBook:D

Neither S-video or DVI carry audio. The point of HDMI over DVI was that it also carries audio.

Randall
Jan 16, 2006, 09:33 PM
Be fair.. Apple have ensured that their MBP site renders correctly in Safari and IE. Who cares about firefox and the fact that it is better and more secure than IE. Apple doesn't seem to care about the 10% market share that uses Firefox. I mean firefox users are not likely to ever buy a mac are they. Only the astute IE consumer would!Your logic is flawless

jacobj
Jan 17, 2006, 12:47 AM
Your logic is flawless

I thought so too ;)

zync
Jan 17, 2006, 11:14 AM
Basic economics works because people buy the product they like. And a company that produces a bad product doesn't survive. In theory.

It is obvious that more and more people believe the way to get more is to complain louder. It's an unfortunate belief. Personally I prefer the friendly approach, and do my best to use it and to help people who use it.

Anyway, I'd guess that as long as you're buying the product, the bean-counters don't care if you smile or complain.

Complaining and not buying the product are one in the same, unless you complain AND buy the product. But in that case, what would be the point of complaining unless you complain after you buy the product, which also affects the market.

mdavey
Jan 17, 2006, 11:31 AM
Complaining and not buying the product are one in the same, unless you complain AND buy the product. But in that case, what would be the point of complaining unless you complain after you buy the product, which also affects the market.

Hmm, getting very philosophical now, but if complaining after you buy the product affects the market, then surely complaining before you buy the product also affects the market?

So extrapolate and assuming that everyone inherrently has a selfish motivation*, surely the best course of action is to complain, wait for the market to be adversely affected, then buy the product? Just before you come to sell the product, wax lyrical about how great the product is.

In this increasingly hypothetical (and somewhat cynical) situation, one could therefore suggest that it is Apple execs (who want to maximise shareholder profit) and poor Mac owners (who begrudge others getting nicer machines) that are talking up the product, while potential purchassers are dissing (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diss) the same ;).

*Let's not get into that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfish) debate.

ZorPrime
Jan 17, 2006, 12:11 PM
Who gives a flying **** about the G4. The G4 or its Freescale brother is dead. Steve shot it in the head and it fell head first off the pier. Its gone. Forget the thing and move on.

Interesting... couldn't the same be said about the "PowerBook" nameplate. Steve capped the PowerBook name, yet some would try to justify not accepting the "MacBook Pro" nameplate... :confused:

271
Jan 17, 2006, 01:30 PM
Interesting... couldn't the same be said about the "PowerBook" nameplate. Steve capped the PowerBook name, yet some would try to justify not accepting the "MacBook Pro" nameplate... :confused:

i was hoping for "notentosh" ;)

SiliconAddict
Jan 17, 2006, 01:37 PM
Interesting... couldn't the same be said about the "PowerBook" nameplate. Steve capped the PowerBook name, yet some would try to justify not accepting the "MacBook Pro" nameplate... :confused:

Nice try at spinning it but all you got was a 360*. Its not the same thing and you know it. I stopped bitching about that about ah hour after they announced it. At this point my sig is a quiet protest unlike people screeching like baboons who have lost their banana.

SiliconAddict
Jan 17, 2006, 01:38 PM
i was hoping for "notentosh" ;)


I was hoping for Macintel. Just sort of flows.. (No toilet jokes please! :p )

.jacob
Jan 17, 2006, 02:43 PM
Does the MBP have Bluetooth?

Reason I'm asking is becuase I have a Bluetooth mouse (with USB dock if needed) but I'd like to run it without the USB dock. The MBP will be my very first Mac ever, will the Logitech mouse (previously used on my PC) work on the Mac?

Thanks,
Jacob

ZorPrime
Jan 17, 2006, 03:06 PM
Nice try at spinning it but all you got was a 360*. Its not the same thing and you know it. I stopped bitching about that about ah hour after they announced it. At this point my sig is a quiet protest unlike people screeching like baboons who have lost their banana.

Note: I refuse to use the title MacBook.

Just Playing Devil's Advocate. :cool: But for the sake of argument, isn't a protest or refusal to use, no matter how sublime, a form of "complaining"? ;)

robbieduncan
Jan 17, 2006, 03:13 PM
Does the MBP have Bluetooth?

Reason I'm asking is becuase I have a Bluetooth mouse (with USB dock if needed) but I'd like to run it without the USB dock. The MBP will be my very first Mac ever, will the Logitech mouse (previously used on my PC) work on the Mac?

Thanks,
Jacob

You could look on [http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/wireless.html]Apple's site[/url]. It's not difficult to find out.

And yes the mouse should work.

Randall
Jan 17, 2006, 03:25 PM
You could look on [http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/wireless.html]Apple's site[/url]. It's not difficult to find out.

And yes the mouse should work.Nice Avatar man. Futurama rules. :cool:

absurdio
Jan 17, 2006, 09:26 PM
This has likely been answered by now, but if so, its still unbeknownst to me. Is there any reasonable explanation for why the IR remote is IR instead of bluetooth? With things like the omission of the FW800 and the opting for a 4x SL superdrive instead of an 8x DL, I can understand that size constraints limited Apple's options. But bluetooth is already built in. Wouldn't it take LESS space to have just made the remote bluetooth? And wouldn't that also have allowed them to not build in the (ugly) IR sensor? I don't understand their motives here. Anyone?

I'd also like to mention that about three days before the keynote that announced these things (with MagSafe!), my powerbook was yanked off a table by its power cord. Now I have to replace the power cord (which sparks and tries to set my apartment ablaze) and hope that's all I need to fix. Damn you, MagSafe. You're three days too late for me. *Sigh*

zync
Jan 17, 2006, 09:27 PM
I didn't call anyone names. I'm just sick of people bitching and that IS what is going on. There is a difference between talking rationally and going "OMG this thing sucks." It doesn't suck. It's a perfectly good update. May are bitching for one and only one reason: It's an Intel system. Many people, but not all, are being overly critical because there still are those who are PPC fanatics. If you've been reading multiple forums and news posts you would see it goes WELL beyond critiquing the new PowerBooks*. This is bitching to make you PPC system feel superior. I've already read some threads that are fair and ballancedTM this thread is NOT one of them. When you are at 1170 some odd posts. Yah I hink not.

It was name-calling. Saying people are bitching is name calling. You are saying we are people that bitch, which we are not. We are people who use computers in our professional lives and need them to be a complete upgrade from the last generation, not a half-assed attempt. It's great that they're faster, I have no qualms about that. What about those people out there that need to connect to FW800 systems, or even TWO FW400 systems? Not everything can be daisy-chained, especially cameras. What about those people that need to get a DVD produced on the road and need it to have more video than just an hour of quality video? You've already read a story from someone who would have lost TEN GRAND if he had a MacBook instead of a PowerBook. I'm sorry, this thing doesn't cut it for everyone, it just doesn't.

Just because something is faster does not immediately mean it's better. The screen resolution, for one, is a downgrade from the previous model. When the resolution isn't that huge to begin with, 60px by 1440px becomes a huge loss for a camera that is not needed and should be optional. I'm sorry if I'm one of the few people that think that you should upgrade everything instead of selectively upgrading and selectively downgrading a system. I'm sorry that they don't have a FW800 chipset or a slimmer DL DVD burner, but you know what? They could have waited. Waiting might have even driven up their demand.

And another thing, saying that something is useless because only 10% of the people use it, like a modem for instance, is stupid when you're talking about a pro machine. You might not use a feature everyday or every year, but on that one occasion when you need it, you'll be happy you have it, especially if it keeps your client from giving their money to someone else. Think of it this way—even though I hate car analogies for computers—would you drive your car without a spare? You may never use it. In all my years of driving, on all my cars, I've never needed my spares but that doesn't mean I'd drive a mile without one.

As an aside I'm using FW800 right now to burn a DVD off of my LaCie. Despite my HD being slow, it doesn't matter because all of that content is written to RAM and then burned, which uses up most of that speed over FW400.

sphereboy
Jan 17, 2006, 09:31 PM
This has likely been answered by now, but if so, its still unbeknownst to me. Is there any reasonable explanation for why the IR remote is IR instead of bluetooth? With things like the omission of the FW800 and the opting for a 4x SL superdrive instead of an 8x DL, I can understand that size constraints limited Apple's options. But bluetooth is already built in. Wouldn't it take LESS space to have just made the remote bluetooth? And wouldn't that also have allowed them to not build in the (ugly) IR sensor? I don't understand their motives here. Anyone?

if i am remembering correctly, i read somewhere the reason for IR was for integration with current universal remotes and allowing you to use your universal home theater remote to control the Mac.

At least that reasoning makes sense to me. Not sure where i read it.

zync
Jan 17, 2006, 09:39 PM
Looks like it to me..

Looks like someone just altered the levels in Photoshop. The drop shadow is much darker as well.

Neither S-video or DVI carry audio. The point of HDMI over DVI was that it also carries audio.

Some S-Video cables do, I've seen it. It depends on the hardware being connected. Higher end DVD players sometimes have this as a feature. I don't believe it carries anything over stereo sound though.

Hmm, getting very philosophical now, but if complaining after you buy the product affects the market, then surely complaining before you buy the product also affects the market?

So extrapolate and assuming that everyone inherrently has a selfish motivation*, surely the best course of action is to complain, wait for the market to be adversely affected, then buy the product? Just before you come to sell the product, wax lyrical about how great the product is.

In this increasingly hypothetical (and somewhat cynical) situation, one could therefore suggest that it is Apple execs (who want to maximise shareholder profit) and poor Mac owners (who begrudge others getting nicer machines) that are talking up the product, while potential purchassers are dissing (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diss) the same ;).

*Let's not get into that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfish) debate.

You know that's not what I meant :) I simply meant that, though I did use the world complain rather complexly*, a complaint from a user of the system carries more impact because they're complaining about something they're currently using.

This has likely been answered by now, but if so, its still unbeknownst to me. Is there any reasonable explanation for why the IR remote is IR instead of bluetooth? With things like the omission of the FW800 and the opting for a 4x SL superdrive instead of an 8x DL, I can understand that size constraints limited Apple's options. But bluetooth is already built in. Wouldn't it take LESS space to have just made the remote bluetooth? And wouldn't that also have allowed them to not build in the (ugly) IR sensor? I don't understand their motives here. Anyone?

I posed that same question as it seems perfectly logical. I already do this with my cell phone. If they're going to give me a remote, why not make it work better than my cell phone remote? It'd also get rid of that ill-placed IR sensor. If they simply had to go with IR, why not put it right next to the iSight? You've already uglied up that part, why not keep the rest at least normal? It's not like you can easily use your PowerBook closed anyway.

*word I made up

devman
Jan 17, 2006, 11:37 PM
Some S-Video cables do, I've seen it. It depends on the hardware being connected. Higher end DVD players sometimes have this as a feature. I don't believe it carries anything over stereo sound though.


good luck finding audio equipment that will do anything with an audio signal from an S-VIDEO cable. :) (makes no sense for a high end dvd player to send only stereo quality audio through a non-standard interface).

anyway, this is well off-topic...

just one of MANY links that say the same thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Video

grahamtriggs
Jan 17, 2006, 11:45 PM
if i am remembering correctly, i read somewhere the reason for IR was for integration with current universal remotes and allowing you to use your universal home theater remote to control the Mac.

At least that reasoning makes sense to me. Not sure where i read it.

Doesn't make that much sense - the need for it to work with a universal remote / home theatre is a bit limited for an iMac, even more so for a MacBook. The same could be said for Front Row.

Now a Mac Mini on the other hand - Front Row and IR remote makes a *lot* of sense

zync
Jan 18, 2006, 12:12 AM
good luck finding audio equipment that will do anything with an audio signal from an S-VIDEO cable. :) (makes no sense for a high end dvd player to send only stereo quality audio through a non-standard interface).

anyway, this is well off-topic...

just one of MANY links that say the same thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Video

I only say high end because there are only low end DVD players around my house and they don't do it :D but I have seen it done before. Wiki's are not always complete. Unless it is possible to send audio via some unknown wireless spec from a DVD player to a TV, I've seen a DVD player connected to a TV with only an S-Video connection playing both video and audio from a DVD.

grahamtriggs
Jan 18, 2006, 12:14 AM
Just because something is faster does not immediately mean it's better. The screen resolution, for one, is a downgrade from the previous model. When the resolution isn't that huge to begin with, 60px by 1440px becomes a huge loss for a camera that is not needed and should be optional. I'm sorry if I'm one of the few people that think that you should upgrade everything instead of selectively upgrading and selectively downgrading a system. I'm sorry that they don't have a FW800 chipset or a slimmer DL DVD burner, but you know what? They could have waited. Waiting might have even driven up their demand.

I think your 'everything upgraded' logic is flawed - for one thing, you (and I) would be happy to see a new MBP without a camera, but that would be a downgrade. It's OK that not everything is an upgrade, but there has to be a balance... what is in the system has to be right, and the price has to be right - IMHO, Apple got both of those wrong.

As far as the screen goes, I think dropping a little resolution is more or less necessary - it should at least save costs, as it is a standard, mass produced resolution used in PC laptops. Losing 1440x60 pixels isn't the end of the world, but what about exsiting software that may be expecting those pixels??

Before I go on, I'll just also say that waiting is not a good idea either - not all developers could go for the porting kit, but they need Intel hardware to port/test their applications. Making something available to them is important, but they could have waited to cut the thickness if that meant fewer compromises.

The dual-layer burner is the biggest FU as far as I'm concerned - I'm sorry, but I defy anyone to say they need the mm or two shaved off the thickness. True, DL media is expensive, but this is a system that you will be keeping for 3+ years, prices will come down. Hell, I wish Apple would make bigger, uglier kit that had the ability to swap drives, etc. like you can with PC laptops - I'm not saying they should make it exclusively, but it should be there as an option, even if they don't undercut the sexier kit. The ability to easily replace a broken drive, or upgrade it as necessary is more important to me than the looks.

Which is basically why I'm going back to PCs - Apple just doesn't give you any choice. That was acceptable when there was a benefit to being on MacOS, but that will basically be eroded by the end of the year - the hardware is going the same architecture as PCs (so no real advantage, just sexier), and Vista will largely close the OS gap. I hate some of the things that Microsoft have done / are still doing, but it's easier to put up with them than it is to have Apple miss providing what I want/need, or else force me to pay way over the odds to get it.

zync
Jan 18, 2006, 12:30 AM
I think your 'everything upgraded' logic is flawed - for one thing, you (and I) would be happy to see a new MBP without a camera, but that would be a downgrade. It's OK that not everything is an upgrade, but there has to be a balance... what is in the system has to be right, and the price has to be right - IMHO, Apple got both of those wrong.

I suppose, however such an "upgrade" should have been optional. If they were to remove the iSight they would still be upgrading the MacBook in terms of professional use. A professional is not going to use the iSight to record video. A professional will, however, utilize those extra 86,400 pixels.

As far as the screen goes, I think dropping a little resolution is more or less necessary - it should at least save costs, as it is a standard, mass produced resolution used in PC laptops. Losing 1440x60 pixels isn't the end of the world, but what about exsiting software that may be expecting those pixels??

You don't make sense here. First you say that dropping the resolution is necessary, which makes no sense on its own, and then you say that existing software might need those pixels?

Before I go on, I'll just also say that waiting is not a good idea either - not all developers could go for the porting kit, but they need Intel hardware to port/test their applications. Making something available to them is important, but they could have waited to cut the thickness if that meant fewer compromises.

The dual-layer burner is the biggest FU as far as I'm concerned - I'm sorry, but I defy anyone to say they need the mm or two shaved off the thickness. True, DL media is expensive, but this is a system that you will be keeping for 3+ years, prices will come down. Hell, I wish Apple would make bigger, uglier kit that had the ability to swap drives, etc. like you can with PC laptops - I'm not saying they should make it exclusively, but it should be there as an option, even if they don't undercut the sexier kit. The ability to easily replace a broken drive, or upgrade it as necessary is more important to me than the looks.

I only mentioned waiting as one option. I mentioned maintaining the original thickness as an option in a previous post. Maintaining the original thickness would have been perfectly fine by me. I disagree with the notion that Apple should make a hot-swappable drive bay. I rarely used it when I had a PC. Really, I hated it.

Which is basically why I'm going back to PCs - Apple just doesn't give you any choice. That was acceptable when there was a benefit to being on MacOS, but that will basically be eroded by the end of the year - the hardware is going the same architecture as PCs (so no real advantage, just sexier), and Vista will largely close the OS gap. I hate some of the things that Microsoft have done / are still doing, but it's easier to put up with them than it is to have Apple miss providing what I want/need, or else force me to pay way over the odds to get it.

That's a perfectly fine decision, but I'm not willing to make it. Windows Vista may be new but it'll always be Windows. It will always be flawed by having to pay favor to too many people. Even if—a BIG if—Microsoft somehow manages to pull off something nicer than OS X, the development team at Apple has less to deal with. In a year's time they will have bested Microsoft once again, and 7 years later there will be rumors of a new Windows version after succeedingly crappier special versions. Thanks Microsoft but no thanks. They can't even get their internet browser correct.

grahamtriggs
Jan 18, 2006, 03:23 AM
You don't make sense here. First you say that dropping the resolution is necessary, which makes no sense on its own, and then you say that existing software might need those pixels?

Sorry, I don't mean to say that it *IS* necessary, but that it does bring significant advantages - primarily that it is easier and cheaper to source screens of that resolution.

I only mentioned waiting as one option. I mentioned maintaining the original thickness as an option in a previous post. Maintaining the original thickness would have been perfectly fine by me. I disagree with the notion that Apple should make a hot-swappable drive bay. I rarely used it when I had a PC. Really, I hated it.

And I only mentioned that they should do the hot-swappable drive bay as an option. So you have your sexy MBP just as it is currently, but then there is also another model that gives you these extra options. You don't lose anything, but lots of other people gain reasons / possibilities to buy Apple.

Although I don't understand why you should hate swappable bays - OK, it may contribute to the thickness, which may be an issue in your case, but other than that it makes practically no difference to the usability of the machine (a small latch on the underside - and you could still have slot loading drives moulded to fit the lines of the machine). But you gain the ability to replace the drive if faulty, or for an upgrade, or even sacrifice the drive for an additional battery on the occassions where you need ultra long running, but don't need the drive.

That's a perfectly fine decision, but I'm not willing to make it. Windows Vista may be new but it'll always be Windows. It will always be flawed by having to pay favor to too many people. Even if—a BIG if—Microsoft somehow manages to pull off something nicer than OS X, the development team at Apple has less to deal with. In a year's time they will have bested Microsoft once again, and 7 years later there will be rumors of a new Windows version after succeedingly crappier special versions. Thanks Microsoft but no thanks. They can't even get their internet browser correct.

I don't really care about nicer than OS X, or Apple 'besting' MS again. OSes - all OSes - are already far too complicated. There is a small set of functionality that an OS should get right, and everything beyond that is just bloat. (although there are a core set of applications that also need to be readily available for an OS - but that's not quite the same thing as being part of the OS).

Opening, closing and switching between applications is pretty similar between both OSes. In many cases, Windows is actually better (how many times have you accidentally closed the wrong application in MacOS because it has the focus although all windows are minimised, or had apps running in the background consuming memory because you closed the window and not the app?). Sure, Mac has the advantage of GPU acceleration and Expose - but that gap will be closed with Vista, and it's hard to see any practical benefit that can be added.

Stability isn't really an issue worth talking about any more (both OSes can be stable/unstable depending on how you treat them). And the other important area is security - which Windows has already made some progress on, and the big issue user access/rights should also be dealt with in Vista (in much the same way as OSX). Sure, the MS apps - IE, etc. - may still have issues, but since when did you *have* to use the MS application stack?

Which basically means that if Vista delivers it's promises, both it and OS X will do everything I would want / need from an OS for the foreseeable future.

absurdio
Jan 18, 2006, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by Zync
I posed that same question as it seems perfectly logical. I already do this with my cell phone. If they're going to give me a remote, why not make it work better than my cell phone remote? It'd also get rid of that ill-placed IR sensor. If they simply had to go with IR, why not put it right next to the iSight? You've already uglied up that part, why not keep the rest at least normal? It's not like you can easily use your PowerBook closed anyway.

exactly. EXACTLY. The isight is ugly enough an edition. Can't we skip the IR garbage? Though...incedentally, I can't help but be curious how you use your phone as a remote...that sounds...like exactly the kind of technological wizardry I'd spend every waking minute playing with.

mpw
Jan 18, 2006, 04:51 AM
...Can't we skip the IR garbage?...
It has the IR input because Apple obviously want it to be compatible with the iHome LCD remote they're releasing 'next Tuesday' along with the new Mac mini iHome DVR home media centre. The iHome remote will be a stand alone product to control any standard A/V equipment......oh, I've said too much. You ain't seen me, right!;)

mdavey
Jan 18, 2006, 04:57 AM
Is there any reasonable explanation for why the IR remote is IR instead of bluetooth? ... bluetooth is already built in. Wouldn't it take LESS space to have just made the remote bluetooth? And wouldn't that also have allowed them to not build in the (ugly) IR sensor? I don't understand their motives here. Anyone?
It'd also get rid of that ill-placed IR sensor. If they simply had to go with IR, why not put it right next to the iSight? You've already uglied up that part, why not keep the rest at least normal?

I hadn't heard the universal remote theory before but it does make some sense, especially with persistent rumors of an Apple LCD tablet-come-remote-control on its way.

The space difference is minimal. I haven't seen a picture of the USB IR controller chip they are using, but it will certainly be tiny (probaby 8mmx16mm or less). What I don't understand is why they put the IR receiver where they did - why not put it in the latch button, opposite the power LED and use a translucent white window (a bit like they did for the iMac)? Maybe Apple have had problems with the IR receiver on the new iMac or maybe the IR receiver was added to the MacBook Pro really late in the design.

One final consideration is cost. The IR receiver optical and chip are really cheap. The IR remote control is very cheap to manufacture. By comparison, a Bluetooth remote control would cost a fair bit more, even taking into account savings by not fitting the IR receiver components.


You know that's not what I meant :)

Kinda. I was being flippant.

I simply meant that... a complaint from a user of the system carries more impact because they're complaining about something they're currently using.

Ah, good point.

Piarco
Jan 18, 2006, 05:57 AM
exactly. EXACTLY. The isight is ugly enough an edition. Can't we skip the IR garbage? Though...incedentally, I can't help but be curious how you use your phone as a remote...that sounds...like exactly the kind of technological wizardry I'd spend every waking minute playing with.

Salling Clicker and either a Sony Ericsson or Nokia mobile.
Its fantastic - full iTunes functionality (including the artwork of the playing track), PowerPoint/Keynote, DVD Player, desktop (acts like a mouse) and other fun stuff. All over BT.

I'd really like a dedicated Mac remote though, with a small colour LCD display to do everything (and more hopefully) that the Salling Clicker software does. If the Mac Mini's go towards being a complete media hub, such a remote would surely be necessary?

lahamus@mac.com
Jan 18, 2006, 09:22 AM
I am confused by what I am reading and hearing. An Apple tech told me that I would have to rebuy all applications like Office for Mac if I changed from a G5 to the new Intel Macs. Is this true? The Apple web site seems to imply that the old apps will run on the new Macs . . .

~Shard~
Jan 18, 2006, 09:37 AM
I am confused by what I am reading and hearing. An Apple tech told me that I would have to rebuy all applications like Office for Mac if I changed from a G5 to the new Intel Macs. Is this true? The Apple web site seems to imply that the old apps will run on the new Macs . . .

Steve Jobs said himself during the MWSF keynote that Office runs just fine under Rosetta.

zync
Jan 18, 2006, 10:38 AM
And I only mentioned that they should do the hot-swappable drive bay as an option. So you have your sexy MBP just as it is currently, but then there is also another model that gives you these extra options. You don't lose anything, but lots of other people gain reasons / possibilities to buy Apple.

Although I don't understand why you should hate swappable bays - OK, it may contribute to the thickness, which may be an issue in your case, but other than that it makes practically no difference to the usability of the machine (a small latch on the underside - and you could still have slot loading drives moulded to fit the lines of the machine). But you gain the ability to replace the drive if faulty, or for an upgrade, or even sacrifice the drive for an additional battery on the occassions where you need ultra long running, but don't need the drive.

Yes, it could be an option, but it's something Apple would never produce with their design philosophy, even if they could make it thin and sexy. I hate drive bays because that's just another thing to carry around.



I don't really care about nicer than OS X, or Apple 'besting' MS again. OSes - all OSes - are already far too complicated. There is a small set of functionality that an OS should get right, and everything beyond that is just bloat. (although there are a core set of applications that also need to be readily available for an OS - but that's not quite the same thing as being part of the OS).

True, I never said that wasn't true.

Opening, closing and switching between applications is pretty similar between both OSes. In many cases, Windows is actually better (how many times have you accidentally closed the wrong application in MacOS because it has the focus although all windows are minimised, or had apps running in the background consuming memory because you closed the window and not the app?). Sure, Mac has the advantage of GPU acceleration and Expose - but that gap will be closed with Vista, and it's hard to see any practical benefit that can be added.

I don't forget about open applications anymore because I used OS9 in school, and in those days you had to remember that something was open if you wanted your computer to run quickly enough.

Stability isn't really an issue worth talking about any more (both OSes can be stable/unstable depending on how you treat them). And the other important area is security - which Windows has already made some progress on, and the big issue user access/rights should also be dealt with in Vista (in much the same way as OSX). Sure, the MS apps - IE, etc. - may still have issues, but since when did you *have* to use the MS application stack?

Which basically means that if Vista delivers it's promises, both it and OS X will do everything I would want / need from an OS for the foreseeable future.

Vista is still going to have a registry which is why, unless you never install anything, Windows slows down and needs to be reinstalled every six months or so. That's not something I'm willing to put up with. And while XP is much further along than '98 in terms of stability, it still has it's bad moments. Also, I mentioned IE because I do a lot of development and understand that Internet Explorer has not only halted web development for years, but it has also led to tons of developers staying in the dark with regard to current practices and standards. And those same developers produce the web pages we complain about not working in Firefox or Safari, or saying that we can't use their site because of being on a Mac.

zync
Jan 18, 2006, 10:40 AM
Salling Clicker and either a Sony Ericsson or Nokia mobile.
Its fantastic - full iTunes functionality (including the artwork of the playing track), PowerPoint/Keynote, DVD Player, desktop (acts like a mouse) and other fun stuff. All over BT.

I'd really like a dedicated Mac remote though, with a small colour LCD display to do everything (and more hopefully) that the Salling Clicker software does. If the Mac Mini's go towards being a complete media hub, such a remote would surely be necessary?

Yeah a dedicated one would be nice but being able to use my phone for free is nicer :) If they just produced a remote they'd be smart because it would work on all BT Macs.

For the record I use an Ericsson and Romeo, which is basically a free version of Salling Clicker. It has all of the features you mentioned, but I'm not sure what the real difference is as I've never used Salling Clicker.

grahamtriggs
Jan 18, 2006, 10:54 AM
Yes, it could be an option, but it's something Apple would never produce with their design philosophy, even if they could make it thin and sexy. I hate drive bays because that's just another thing to carry around.

Still don't understand your concern - the drive/bay is part of the machine. Unless you choose to carry an extra component around to swap into it, you are still only carrying around the machine.

Even if you were to make use of the capability regularly, it could just mean swapping the contents of the bay at home/work, and carrying just the machine around all day until you get back and swap it again.

Vista is still going to have a registry which is why, unless you never install anything, Windows slows down and needs to be reinstalled every six months or so. That's not something I'm willing to put up with. And while XP is much further along than '98 in terms of stability, it still has it's bad moments.

My one last hated fragment of Windows. That said, the registry is nowhere near as bad as you suggest. A lot of slow down is fragmentation, not registry bloat and that can easily be dealt with.

MacOS X also has it's moments - I've had kernel panics due to dodgy drivers (hardware faults aside, that's all I've ever had give a BSOD on Windows too).

Also, I mentioned IE because I do a lot of development and understand that Internet Explorer has not only halted web development for years, but it has also led to tons of developers staying in the dark with regard to current practices and standards. And those same developers produce the web pages we complain about not working in Firefox or Safari, or saying that we can't use their site because of being on a Mac.

It's a reason to hate IE, but not a reason to hate the OS. You aren't forced to use IE, and it's sure as hell handy to have access to a browser that will work with a crappy site when none of the others do.

mongoos150
Jan 18, 2006, 01:36 PM
To people who have already ordered:

1. Does Apple charge before they ship, or do they charge your CC once it ships?

2. Do you have an est. shipping date?

.jacob
Jan 18, 2006, 07:35 PM
To people who have already ordered:

1. Does Apple charge before they ship, or do they charge your CC once it ships?

2. Do you have an est. shipping date?

I was charged $257, I'm not sure why or what part of the order that represents. I did get the AppleCare with the student discount for $239...

Shipped on or before Feb. 15 is what the site and Apple reps are saying.

.jacob
Jan 18, 2006, 07:35 PM
I have an external HD and I backed up my PC on it. Can I just hook it up to my new MBP when it arrives in the mail in a few weeks and just transfer the files onto the Mac? I'm completely new to Macs.

mongoos150
Jan 19, 2006, 11:40 AM
OK, sounds like they aren't charging for the MBP until it ships. Good news.

skunkworks
Jan 19, 2006, 12:01 PM
if the machine shipped your SOL and have to pay 10% restocking. I think if you wait till june time frame you can recoup that money, apple will have update imacs with 64bit cpu and even better graphics chip by nvidia. At least these are my predictions.

Peace
Jan 19, 2006, 12:01 PM
I only say high end because there are only low end DVD players around my house and they don't do it :D but I have seen it done before. Wiki's are not always complete. Unless it is possible to send audio via some unknown wireless spec from a DVD player to a TV, I've seen a DVD player connected to a TV with only an S-Video connection playing both video and audio from a DVD.

What you saw or heard when you saw an s-video cable connected to a tv and heard sound was the tv speakers using a different source for audio..

It is physically impossible for an s-video cable to carry audio and if it could it would not be part of the s-video standards.

jacobj
Jan 19, 2006, 01:14 PM
I was charged $257, I'm not sure why or what part of the order that represents. I did get the AppleCare with the student discount for $239...

Shipped on or before Feb. 15 is what the site and Apple reps are saying.

Where on the site does it say Feb 15?

Peace
Jan 19, 2006, 01:23 PM
I was charged $257, I'm not sure why or what part of the order that represents. I did get the AppleCare with the student discount for $239...

Shipped on or before Feb. 15 is what the site and Apple reps are saying.

I'm guessing the $257 was the $239 for AppleCare plus tax.

robbieduncan
Jan 19, 2006, 01:30 PM
Where on the site does it say Feb 15?

When you order one you can check the estimated shipping date.

jacobj
Jan 19, 2006, 01:33 PM
When you order one you can check the estimated shipping date.

I live in Jersey and Apple stopped shipping here about 3 months ago. Now I have to order it through the local reseller and wait even longer for a new product. :mad:

powerbook911
Jan 19, 2006, 04:32 PM
I'm guessing the $257 was the $239 for AppleCare plus tax.

Probably right. The tax will probably be removed, when it ships. It was for me.

rugonnaeatthat
Jan 19, 2006, 04:55 PM
Still trying to decide whether or get a Macbook or an older Powerbook. I need a laptop but there are some issues and everyones thoughts would be appreciated.

1st - speed. I'm a graphic designer and can never have a enough speed. I can also never get enough money so at the moment I happily working with a REV B iMac G5. If I get a Macbook the Rosetta based Adobe Suite will be slow BUT will it be slower than getting a 6months old Powerbook G4?

2nd - I travel interstate a lot - once a month. Each time going through the airport xrays etc. Will this effect (over a sustained period) any portable Hard Drive I take with me? As I'll rely on this to work on both the iMac and the Laptop.

sphereboy
Jan 19, 2006, 06:10 PM
Still trying to decide whether or get a Macbook or an older Powerbook. I need a laptop but there are some issues and everyones thoughts would be appreciated.

1st - speed. I'm a graphic designer and can never have a enough speed. I can also never get enough money so at the moment I happily working with a REV B iMac G5. If I get a Macbook the Rosetta based Adobe Suite will be slow BUT will it be slower than getting a 6months old Powerbook G4?

2nd - I travel interstate a lot - once a month. Each time going through the airport xrays etc. Will this effect (over a sustained period) any portable Hard Drive I take with me? As I'll rely on this to work on both the iMac and the Laptop.

you should read the past 48 pages to get an understanding of what the new MacBook Pro will have to offer you. I currently have a PowerBook and am a graphic designer and works just fine, as long as i don't work on large format, high resolution work. For example a 4' x 6' sign, with high resolution images will choke up my Powerbook, but everything else runs just fine.

If you can wait, get an older used powerbook, many professionals worked on that just fine, and you might be able to save a few bucks. Then when the REAL MacBook Pro's come out later in the year, you can sell your powerbook for a few bucks and buy the MacBook Pro, you will have the top machine. This current MacBook Pro is not up to par to the real potential it will have. Trust me... Apple works like this. Save the best for later, so they can cash in. I don't take it personally, it's just business. They gotta do what they gotta do to keep giving us great looking machines, and a wonderful OS.

Good luck. I'm sure you if you do some searching on the forums you will find some more specific information. This topic isn't really what your looking for.

Andrew7724
Jan 19, 2006, 09:10 PM
this mac book pro is great, but i just hope that it would not have that heat issue again. has anyone said about the temperature yet?

zync
Jan 19, 2006, 11:02 PM
Still don't understand your concern - the drive/bay is part of the machine. Unless you choose to carry an extra component around to swap into it, you are still only carrying around the machine.

Even if you were to make use of the capability regularly, it could just mean swapping the contents of the bay at home/work, and carrying just the machine around all day until you get back and swap it again.

I realize that. I mean it's something else to carry around so that you're not left without functionality. IE, if I had an extra battery in and I needed a Superdrive out in the field, I'd have to make sure I had it with me just in case.

My one last hated fragment of Windows. That said, the registry is nowhere near as bad as you suggest. A lot of slow down is fragmentation, not registry bloat and that can easily be dealt with.

MacOS X also has it's moments - I've had kernel panics due to dodgy drivers (hardware faults aside, that's all I've ever had give a BSOD on Windows too).

That problem is not due to fragmentation alone. If you defrag the drives regularly Windows still slows down due to the registry. When you have programs that don't remove themselves correctly, the computer has to sort through flawed entries.


It's a reason to hate IE, but not a reason to hate the OS. You aren't forced to use IE, and it's sure as hell handy to have access to a browser that will work with a crappy site when none of the others do.

It's a reason to hate both, actually. Because IE is bundled with the system, most uneducated users tend to use it. Most uneducated users don't realize that another browser exists (they barely even realize that other operating systems exist). Since uneducated users make up the majority of computer users, IE is the most widely used.

zync
Jan 19, 2006, 11:06 PM
What you saw or heard when you saw an s-video cable connected to a tv and heard sound was the tv speakers using a different source for audio..

It is physically impossible for an s-video cable to carry audio and if it could it would not be part of the s-video standards.

I did not say it was a standard. Also, please don't insult me by implying that I do not understand how audio devices are connected to a TV. I don't remember where I saw it, but I have seen a DVD player connected to a TV with only an S-Video DIN connector and no other cable coming out of the TV or DVD player but power cords.

I don't remember specifics. Sorry, that's all I have.

Still trying to decide whether or get a Macbook or an older Powerbook. I need a laptop but there are some issues and everyones thoughts would be appreciated.

1st - speed. I'm a graphic designer and can never have a enough speed. I can also never get enough money so at the moment I happily working with a REV B iMac G5. If I get a Macbook the Rosetta based Adobe Suite will be slow BUT will it be slower than getting a 6months old Powerbook G4?

2nd - I travel interstate a lot - once a month. Each time going through the airport xrays etc. Will this effect (over a sustained period) any portable Hard Drive I take with me? As I'll rely on this to work on both the iMac and the Laptop.

Just a note, every airport I've been to in the past year—in the U.S. and E.U.—have made me take my laptop out of my bag before passing it through the X-Ray machine—so you'll know before you have to do it :)—and it has never done any noticeable damage to my PowerBook. The PowerBook wasn't off either, it was in sleep mode. I assume they'll make you do the same for portable HDs, and it should not have any effect. I doubt the PowerBook has any other special shielding, but I haven't opened one up. When I worked repairing laptops, some computers did though. I doubt that would help in the airport X-Ray though.

Peace
Jan 19, 2006, 11:52 PM
I did not say it was a standard. Also, please don't insult me by implying that I do not understand how audio devices are connected to a TV. I don't remember where I saw it, but I have seen a DVD player connected to a TV with only an S-Video DIN connector and no other cable coming out of the TV or DVD player but power cords.

I don't remember specifics. Sorry, that's all I have.





Not trying to insult you..
Keep in mind the s-video standard isn't just a cable.It's also what the cable connects to..
So you may have seen a non-standard s-video cable connected to a non standard s-video connection on a television AND a non-standard connection on the DVD player..

This makes no sense..s-video wise..

zync
Jan 19, 2006, 11:55 PM
Not trying to "insult" you..
Keep in mind the s-video standard isn't just a cable.It's also what the cable connects to..
So you may have seen a non-standard "s-video" cable connected to a "non standard" "s-video" connection on a television AND a "non-standard" connection on the DVD player..

This makes no sense..s-video wise..

That is true, and it's what I meant by saying that it is non-standard. It was probably similar to how a SCART connector can carry both, only in this case it was definitely an "S-Video cable."

grahamtriggs
Jan 20, 2006, 03:51 AM
I realize that. I mean it's something else to carry around so that you're not left without functionality. IE, if I had an extra battery in and I needed a Superdrive out in the field, I'd have to make sure I had it with me just in case.

Still comes down to the fact that you have a choice - if you don't want to have the extra thing to carry around and have the possibility of using the drive in the field - leave the drive in the machine. If it's a Core Duo machine, you are still talking ballpark same battery life as the MBP. I can understand why you may not choose to utilise it, I still don't understand why you *hate* it though.

Even then, you could just get a PC without that functionality. I'm not advocating that these choices should be at the expense of the current MBP model - I'm just saying that it's a good thing about the PC market that these choices exist, and I wish we had the same freedom with Apple. You can't fit the entire computer market into 4 boxes - but as things stand, Apple/OS X can only take market share from the part of the market that can be forced into 4 boxes.

That problem is not due to fragmentation alone. If you defrag the drives regularly Windows still slows down due to the registry. When you have programs that don't remove themselves correctly, the computer has to sort through flawed entries.

Oh, I grant you programs don't remove themselves correctly, and that can cause problems (same can be said of OS X though - particularly as applications can have installers that shove things in the library, but often don't have uninstallers that remove those items). That can cause things to stop working - not necessarily slow things down.

But it's still pretty quick to use the registry - simple test is to fire up the registry editor... even on pretty naffed up machines, it's still fast to navigate the registry (pretty much instantaneous). Only searching through the registry is slow, but then applications don't do that - they access named keys.

Yes, you can accumulate crap and slow down Windows over time. You can do that on OS X too. What you do have on Windows is a lot more idiots that install shedloads of crap without realising that they are naffing up their system.

It's a reason to hate both, actually. Because IE is bundled with the system, most uneducated users tend to use it. Most uneducated users don't realize that another browser exists (they barely even realize that other operating systems exist). Since uneducated users make up the majority of computer users, IE is the most widely used.

Well, in a (wider) sense yes. You could just as easily hate Apple for using (and forking) KHTML in Safari - it may be standards based, but it's still another rendering engine getting significant market share, it's still something else that may have a bug, etc.

That isn't the same as making a choice of a platform that will enable you to do the things you want/need to do, and at the right value.

The fact is that there are things I don't like about all of the platforms that exist. Each one also has it's unique benefits too. It's all about compromise, and by the end of the year, Windows will present me with the fewest compromises.

mpw
Jan 20, 2006, 05:03 AM
I did not say it was a standard. Also, please don't insult me by implying that I do not understand how audio devices are connected to a TV. I don't remember where I saw it, but I have seen a DVD player connected to a TV with only an S-Video DIN connector and no other cable coming out of the TV or DVD player but power cords.

I don't remember specifics. Sorry, that's all I have...
Just to add to the debate on 'standards', I connect my Canon MV30(i) DV Camcorder to my Sony 24" KV?(cheapest in the range at the time widescreen) using just a S-Video cable the camera and TV both just refer to the S-Video connectors and the cable was bought seperately (to connect my Mac to my TV) and was just a 'standard' S-Video cable.

Obviously the Mac only sent video but the camera has always sent audio too, I'd never realised that all three just happened to not conform to the 'standard' in the same way.

I sincerly hope that Apple find a way the fit an HDMI connector to future MacBooks. Is HDMI compatible with a 'standard' DVI connector ie MacBook to HDTV would be A/V while MacBook to ACD would be Video only?

spinal1
Jan 20, 2006, 01:31 PM
I was in CompUSA yesterday, and was told they have the MacBook Pro in stock, but must wait a week or so for Apple reps to set up a display machine. That's a bit strange, considering the Apple store folks say they won't have one to display until it ships from the online store to customers in Feb. Meanwhile, CompUSA has reduced the price of the 15" G4 PB twice, and is now selling the base model (80 Gb HD, 512 Mb RAM) for $1500 instead of $2000 (I refuse to give in to the insulting sales trick of charging $1499 or $1999). I have no intention of purchasing computers from CompUSA, but this might be tempting for those who would do so, although the store personnel say they do not have the capability to upgrade the PB models with larger hard drives or memory.

P.S. I'm a Newbie here who has not owned an Apple computer in years. I have a Dell desktop, and am planning to purchase an Apple laptop and make a 2 step conversion to the Mac platform by replacing the desktop with a Mac product in a couple of years or less. I had a 15" G4 PB on order and cancelled it when the MBP was announced. I have not ordered the MBP yet, am waiting for tests, reviews and debugs. Your posts here thus far are packed with knowledge and are greatly appreciated.

Shwam
Jan 20, 2006, 04:28 PM
What Comp USA was this? The website still lists it as $1999 and I just called my local store and they confirmed that's the going price.

I was going to buy one tomorrow since they are offering 48 months no interest, but I don't want to get hosed if they're going to be knocking $500 off the price in a week.

Peace
Jan 20, 2006, 04:34 PM
Amazon has a $150 rebate going on.And it's the number 2 seller right now.