Pakistan Says U.S. Planes Crossed Border and Killed 18

[zimv20]

link (http://nytimes.com/2006/01/13/international/asia/13cnd-afghan.html?hp&ex=1137214800&en=2b6805d9b62cdb7c&ei=5094&partner=homepage)


PESHAWAR, Pakistan, Jan. 13 - American planes crossed from Afghanistan into Pakistan's Bajaur tribal region and fired on residential compounds in a Pakistani village early this morning, killing 18 people and wounding 6 others, Pakistani officials and eyewitnesses said.

Villagers and security officials said that four American aircraft entered the Pakistani tribal region that borders Afghanistan's eastern Kunar province at about 3.15 a.m. Pakistan Time. The planes targeted residential buildings in the Berkandi area of Damadola, about 25 miles from the border inside Pakistan, they said.

The mountainous province of Kunar is frequently the site of clashes between United States-led coalition forces and armed militants who are believed to use Pakistan as a sanctuary. In June last year, 19 American servicemen were killed in Kunar in the heaviest single combat loss in the four years of fighting in Afghanistan.

American military officials have said that their forces in Afghanistan do not have the right to cross the border into Pakistan, even in pursuit of militants. The issue is particularly sensitive for Pakistan, since the inhabitants of the border areas are strongly anti-American and pro-Taliban.

Witnesses from the village said that 14 of the dead belonged to one family. Sahibzada Haroon Rashid, a tribal parliamentarian from the region, whose village, Gung, is next to Damadola, claimed to have seen a drone surveying the area some hours before the attack.

"The drone has been flying over the area for the last three, four days and I had a feeling that something nasty was going to happen," Mr. Rashid said in a telephone interview from Bajaur.

"I was awakened from deep slumber by the noise of the drone and then, together with thousands others who, too, had been woken up by the plane's noise, saw jets targeting the area," Mr. Rashid said. "One plane circled the area and dropped illuminating flares and the other planes fired missiles. There were loud explosions." He said that the planes had targeted three houses, all belonging to jewelry dealers in a nearby town.

"The houses have been razed to the ground. There is nothing left," Mr. Rashid said after visiting the scene. "Pieces of the missiles are scattered all around. The impact of the explosions have been huge, everything has been blackened in a 100 meter radius." United States military spokesmen in Afghanistan and at the Pentagon said they had no reports of American aircraft active in the area at the time of the reported explosions.

Asked if a pilotless Predator Drone was operating in the area, Maj. Todd Vicion, a public affairs officer at the Pentagon, said he did not know. "Those are operational details that we don't track," he said. Predator Drones are operated by the Central Intelligence Agency, not the United States military.

Among the dead are 6 women and 6 children under 10 years of age, villagers said.

A military spokesman, Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan, said he did not know the cause of the blasts. "People heard explosions and, as a result, there were a number of casualties. My information is that 11 to 14 people have been killed."

This is the second alleged United States attack in a Pakistani tribal region that has killed civilians in recent days. Eight people, including women and children, were reported killed when an American helicopter fired at the house of a local cleric in North Waziristan close to the Afghan border on Jan. 7.

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used to be a time when the phrase "an act of war" caused people to think twice.

[iGary]

American planes crossed from Afghanistan into Pakistan's Bajaur tribal region ........eyewitnesses said.

at about 3.15 a.m. Pakistan Time.

Sounds a little fishy to me (although I have no way to dispute the claims), but how does a Pakistani villager identify an aircraft as American at 3:15 in the morning?

[Ugg]

Sounds a little fishy to me (although I have no way to dispute the claims), but how does a Pakistani villager identify an aircraft as American at 3:15 in the morning?

Don't drones operate farily low to the ground and at very low speeds? That would make it much more believable.

[iGary]

Don't drones operate farily low to the ground and at very low speeds? That would make it much more believable.

Well the drones do, but I don't think it was a drone-launched attack from what I have read.

It wil be interesting to see what comes of it , regardless.

[skunk]

Sounds a little fishy to me (although I have no way to dispute the claims), but how does a Pakistani villager identify an aircraft as American at 3:15 in the morning?It sounds like these would be well-known in the border areas, by reputation if not by firsthand experience. I have little doubt this is true. Call me biased, if you will.

You probably will. And I probably am. But there we are.
:)

[mactastic]

Wait, you mean all Clinton could do was lob a few missiles at some tents? ;)

Supposedly we were targeting al-Zawahiri though... would be nice to nail that pecker.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Lets hope #2 and #1 are dead.

[zimv20]

more info (http://nytimes.com/2006/01/14/politics/14afghan.html?hp&ex=1137214800&en=c2089b3a1fcd9011&ei=5094&partner=homepage)


U.S. Raid, Aimed at Qaeda Figure, Kills 17 in Pakistan

WASHINGTON, Jan. 13 - An American airstrike carried out on a village in the Bajaur tribal region of northwest Pakistan early Friday was aimed at Ayman al-Zawahiri, Al Qaeda's second-in-command, and Pakistani officials were trying to determine if he had been killed, American and Pakistani officials said Friday.

At least 17 people were killed in the airstrike, Pakistani officials and witnesses said. The American and Pakistani officials said they believed that the attack had been carried out with a missile launched from a Predator drone aircraft operated by the Central Intelligence Agency.

A C.I.A. spokesman declined to comment, but the attack was described by other American and Pakistani officials. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the classified nature of the operation.

CNN and ABC News reported Friday night that Mr. Zawahiri might have been killed in the attack, but their reports could not be confirmed.

Citing unnamed American sources, CNN called the airstrikes CIA attacks and said intelligence suggested that Mr. Zawahiri had been in a building that was struck. ABC, citing anonymous Pakistani military officials, said on its Web site that five of those killed were high-level Qaeda figures. The reports that Mr. Zawahiri, an Egyptian, might have been killed could not be confirmed.

Pakistan has not granted American forces in Afghanistan the right to cross the border into Pakistan, even in pursuit of militants. American-led coalition forces clashing with militants in the mountainous Afghan province of Kunar say they have often been frustrated by their foes' use of Pakistan as a sanctuary.

United States military spokesmen in Afghanistan and at the Pentagon said they had no reports of American aircraft active in the area at the time of the reported explosions.

Asked if a pilotless Predator aircraft might have been operating in the area, Maj. Todd Vicion, a public affairs officer at the Pentagon, said he did not know. "Those are operational details that we don't track," he said. Predators are operated by members of the Central Intelligence Agency, not the United States military.

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[solvs]

Is it just me, or do we kill the second in command a lot? Either we aren't getting the right people... or like gangs and mobs, when one dies, another is there to take his place. Anyway, I guess this is a good thing, but it looks like we pissed off some people when we did it, overstepping our bounds. Again. At least we're actually after the right terrorists this time. I guess.

[solvs]

At least we're actually after the right terrorists this time.
Or... not (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060114/ap_on_re_as/pakistan_al_qaida_attack).

Pakistani officials on Saturday angrily condemned a purported
CIA airstrike meant to target al-Qaida's No. 2 man, saying he wasn't there and "innocent civilians" were among at least 17 men, women and children killed in a village near the Afghan border.
Oops.

[mactastic]

Great, now we've really riled things up in Pakistan, which would be tolerable IF we'd actually nailed al-Zawahiri. Now we have to explain to the world that we're different from the terrorists because we honestly thought there was a target in those houses instead of civilians. That will play fine at home, but abroad that isn't going to cut the mustard, and you can bet that we've just created more terrorists willing to die to kill Americans....

Things like this just showcase the incompetence that was on full display in the aftermath of Katrina.

And I'm still waiting to hear from all those conservatives who lambasted Clinton because 'all he did was lob some cruise missiles at empty tents'. :rolleyes:

[toontra]

"Intelligence" strikes again! Seems you can start wars, occupy countries and launch attacks killing civilians in other nations as long as you have intelligence - whether it is actually right or not.

If it turns out to be wrong, you just shrug your shoulders and say that some ssomeone in intel goofed, but hey, it was worth a shot.

[skunk]

"Whatever the US does is legal"

[solvs]

"Whatever the US does is legal"
I don't know, that doesn't seem to be working so well here anymore. I mean, it never worked with other countries, especially the ones that hate us, but this certainly isn't going to help. There are rules of conduct during wars, and if we've broken them because our enemy does, that makes us just as bad. If not worse, since we're supposed to be better.

I feel bad for the person who dropped that last bomb. If he's anything like the guy on Stargate, he's gotta feel pretty bad. I'm guessing BushCo is going to say this is why we need to spy on people, so that our intel will be better. :rolleyes:

[skunk]

Senator Trent Lott added, "I would have a problem if we didn't do it."

"There's no question that they're still causing the death of millions of -- or thousands of -- innocent people and directing operations in Iraq," said Lott. "Absolutely, we should do it."A little loose with the numbers?

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/01/15/alqaeda.strike.us/index.html

[maya]

I have to say this, what is with G.W.Bush's mantra about "Acts of Terrorism, Freedom, etc..." its getting old. I don't even have to turn on the tube in order to know what will spew out from his mouth. Seems like a horrible script that is in an infinite play loop.

Boring, get some new material G.W.Bush. :rolleyes:

[solvs]

Boring, get some new material G.W.Bush. :rolleyes:
Terror has become a buzzword. If we were winning, we wouldn't be afraid anymore. But he keeps saying it, and some people still fall for it. Less and less now, and it's stuff like this that makes people think it's getting worse, not better.

Anyone else kinda worried that stuff like this is just going to make them want to attack us again? Bush has us convinced that it could happen at any time, one of the tactics he used to trick us into re-electing him. I'm starting to think he may have been right, but I have a feeling he will be the cause. And I have a feeling most of America will feel the same way.

[mactastic]

Anyone else kinda worried that stuff like this is just going to make them want to attack us again? Bush has us convinced that it could happen at any time, one of the tactics he used to trick us into re-electing him. I'm starting to think he may have been right, but I have a feeling he will be the cause. And I have a feeling most of America will feel the same way.When was the last time we had an Orange Alert nationwide? Since November '04? I can't remember any.

Seems they were happening every couple weeks prior to the election -- and conveniently enough during the Democratic National Convention no less.

Odd that the frequency has dropped so much, isn't it? I suspect we might see a few more 'Orange Alerts' before Nov. '06 passes....

[toontra]

When was the last time we had an Orange Alert nationwide? Since November '04? I can't remember any.

Seems they were happening every couple weeks prior to the election -- and conveniently enough during the Democratic National Convention no less.

Odd that the frequency has dropped so much, isn't it? I suspect we might see a few more 'Orange Alerts' before Nov. '06 passes....

In the UK we famously had tanks surrounding Heathrow airport a few days prior to the vote on the Iraq war in Parliament. Never before - never since!

[zimv20]

link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060120/ap_on_re_as/un_pakistan_al_qaida)


Pakistan PM: No Evidence of al-Qaida Dead

UNITED NATIONS - Pakistan's prime minister said Friday no "tangible evidence" has been found that al-Qaida operatives were among those killed in a U.S. missile strike on a border village last week.

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said security agencies in the area of Damadola "have not found any tangible evidence that a particular group or any individual was there."

A senior Pakistani intelligence official earlier told The Associated Press that al-Qaida figures were casualties of the Jan. 13 attack, which killed 13 villagers.

Officials believe at least four foreign militants may also have died, including an al-Qaida explosives and chemical weapons expert and a son-in-law of the terror network's No. 2 leader, Ayman al-Zawahri.

The intelligence official said the al-Qaida operatives had gathered in Damadola to discuss "new attacks" in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Despite widespread protests across Pakistan this week calling for the ouster of Pakistan President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, a close ally of the U.S., Aziz told reporters that his nation stands solidly behind the United States and its fight against terrorists.

"As regards the relations between Pakistan and the United States, or our conviction about fighting terrorism, there is no question that Pakistan is one of the countries which has done the most because we believe terorrism is no solution to any problems," he said.

But the prime minister — at the U.N. to meet with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan — underscored that the government of Pakistan condemned the U.S. airstrike.

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[toontra]

Despite this, it is unsurprisingly a common belief that these people must somehow have been involved in terrorism (see other threads in this furum - esp. silverback).

Once the headlines are over and the propaganda machine has done its work, who actually gives a damn about these people.