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Lenora
Jan 15, 2006, 01:27 PM
Hi, I'm new here.

I am a graphic designer (for many years) working almost entirely in print, not video or web.

I got a View Sonic LCD monitor to replace my Sony which has started to shift drastically and produce these squiggly lines on screen, etc.

Anyway, I had to return the lovely LCD because of the color inconsistency from top to bottom of the screen. It looks like I will have to stick with CRTs until I retire from this field.

I have an original G4, OS 9.2 and I am not giving it up until it totally dies on me. It only has ONE monitor port on the back, for ANALOG only (15 pin).

Does this make a difference in what I get?

I'd like a nice 19" CRT with high refresh rate and good dot pitch and high resolution. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. There isn't much to look at in the retail stores - they're all pushing LCDs.

Many thanks!

Lenora



Blue Velvet
Jan 15, 2006, 01:44 PM
Hi there. Welcome to MR and a big welcome to the Design & Graphics corner of the site. :)

While we mostly use Lacie Electron Blue's at work, my workstation is set up with a newer NEC/Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2070SB which is an outstanding and well-reviewed monitor for the price. At the time of purchase, I recall there being a 19" or 20" model... can heartily recommend the brand.

This particular model also has some super-bright settings for DVD watching and gaming.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 16, 2006, 02:38 PM
I went with a Dell FP2001 monitor. OSX 10.4 supports it fully in both portrait and landscape.

Either way, monitor calibration through the likes of XRite can go a long ways at getting what publishers I dealt with - at getting "acceptable" results in the CMYK process.

Dr. Dastardly
Jan 16, 2006, 05:08 PM
Have you investigated Dell's or Apple's LCDs? I know you want a CRT but you sound open to an LCD and I always thought theirs were pretty spot on when it comes to color.

Actually disregard the Apple 23" LCD which suffers from a pink hue problem. Still don't know why Apple doesn' acknowledge this as I have seen them in the actual store with this issue.

radiantm3
Jan 16, 2006, 08:04 PM
I wouldn't exclude all LCDs just because you weren't happy with the viewsonic. I calibrate my 30" ACD with a Pantone Colorspyder and I've been happy with my color results (onscreen and output).

virus1
Jan 16, 2006, 09:46 PM
I have an original G4, OS 9.2 and I am not giving it up until it totally dies on me.
listen carefully

step 1: smash it
step 2: imac

what would the world do without me?

ok, seriously. are you sure you can't go with an lcd? are you sure that was your comp screwing up with the lcd or was it just a defective product?

ebuc
Jan 16, 2006, 11:25 PM
I went with a Dell FP2001 monitor. OSX 10.4 supports it fully in both portrait and landscape.

Either way, monitor calibration through the likes of XRite can go a long ways at getting what publishers I dealt with - at getting "acceptable" results in the CMYK process.

How does one enable "portrait" mode?

Dafke
Jan 17, 2006, 07:46 AM
I'm happy with my Iiyama HM903DTA. It's 19", i run it at 1600*1200 with a refresh rate of 85 hertz. It has two inputs, so i can connect my Dell PC and my pbook at the same time, and switch with a button on the monitor.
Not really expensive either.
I bought it two years ago, but i think nowadays the quality and pricelevel of lcd's are ok enough to go for a nice 20" lcd.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 17, 2006, 08:04 AM
How does one enable "portrait" mode?

For me it was as simple as rotating the display and selecting the portrait resolution.

me hate windows
Jan 17, 2006, 05:58 PM
I personally have a LaCie 19 inch CRT monitor. I love it. I use it for my computer and my Xbox 360. Although I don't think they make them anymore because they aren't listed on their website.

Lenora
Jan 17, 2006, 09:38 PM
Thanks for all the input.
The verdict is still out, but I really appreciate these ideas.
Lenora

dmw007
Jan 18, 2006, 01:13 PM
I think that I would have to agree with Dr. Dastardly, and say to try a Apple (or Dell) LCD. I currently use a 19" Dell Trinitron CRT monitor with my Power Mac G5, and while its a good monitor, I would prefer to have an ACD.

Blue Velvet
Jan 18, 2006, 01:25 PM
I think that I would have to agree with Dr. Dastardly, and say to try a Apple (or Dell) LCD. I currently use a 19" Dell Trinitron CRT monitor with my Power Mac G5, and while its a good monitor, I would prefer to have an ACD.


Don't you think that with one analogue port and an implied cost restriction that the OP has clearly stipulated what she is looking for, especially when she says 'There isn't much to look at in the retail stores - they're all pushing LCDs.'?

For the same price, CRTs give far better value for designers. They have other limitations like heat and size but they have particular strengths for those who may be on a budget.

ACD17" = US$799... Imagine the CRT you could get for that. Or conversely, what kind of LCD are you going to get for US$350-400?

dmw007
Jan 18, 2006, 01:40 PM
Don't you think that with one analogue port and an implied cost restriction that the OP has clearly stipulated what she is looking for, especially when she says 'There isn't much to look at in the retail stores - they're all pushing LCDs.'?

Oops, forgot about that- although you could use a DVI -> VGA converter.


For the same price, CRTs give far better value for designers. They have other limitations like heat and size but they have particular strengths for those who may be on a budget.

I agree, CRTs are a better value for designers. I am just partial (though I still don't have one) to ACDs.


ACD17" = US$799... Imagine the CRT you could get for that. Or conversely, what kind of LCD are you going to get for US$350-400?

True, a 20" ACD for $799 USD is a bit steep (hence, why I also said dell, who offers some good prices on their range of LCDs).

geeman
Jan 19, 2006, 05:39 AM
Another vote for the Apple Cinema Displays. For incredible color rendition (and stability) try the new Eizo monitors. Larger color gamut than any of the Apple displays - but they're not cheap :eek:

A good LCD will run rings around what were the best CRTs of a few years ago. If you've been in the print industry for some years you will remember those huge Barco MageCalibrator monitors that everyone seemed to have at one time. I know, I was one of them! Finding 'color-accurate' (whatever that phrase means to you) CRTs is nigh on impossible today: Any CRT is by nature an analog device and therefore WILL drift.

I no longer have any CRTs. However, using a combination of ACDs (general-purpose work) and Eizo (softproofing, retouching, etc.) I can simulate the printed result on my monitors far more accurately now than ever before. Part of that is the tighter control I can have using LCDs. The other part is adopting a color-managed workflow for input to output. That's ICC, device-link profiles, SWOP/GraCOL - the whole nine yards.

OS X offers a lot of color management features over OS 9.x. You sure that you don't want to move to OS X?

ATD
Jan 19, 2006, 09:28 AM
Another vote for the Apple Cinema Displays. For incredible color rendition (and stability) try the new Eizo monitors. Larger color gamut than any of the Apple displays - but they're not cheap :eek:

A good LCD will run rings around what were the best CRTs of a few years ago. If you've been in the print industry for some years you will remember those huge Barco MageCalibrator monitors that everyone seemed to have at one time. I know, I was one of them! Finding 'color-accurate' (whatever that phrase means to you) CRTs is nigh on impossible today: Any CRT is by nature an analog device and therefore WILL drift.

I no longer have any CRTs. However, using a combination of ACDs (general-purpose work) and Eizo (softproofing, retouching, etc.) I can simulate the printed result on my monitors far more accurately now than ever before. Part of that is the tighter control I can have using LCDs. The other part is adopting a color-managed workflow for input to output. That's ICC, device-link profiles, SWOP/GraCOL - the whole nine yards.

OS X offers a lot of color management features over OS 9.x. You sure that you don't want to move to OS X?



I have a Apple Cinema Display and 2 Barcos. I like the Cinema Display but my Barcos still beat it big time for color correctness. I have been reading about the Eizo at their web site but I have not heard of any independent testing. If what Eizo is claiming is accurate (0.5 Delta E) it will be my next monitor. Which model do you have and is it as good as they say it is?

geeman
Jan 19, 2006, 10:09 AM
I have some Eizo CG210 monitors. Using the Eizo bundled software for calibration, along with a 'puck' Gretag EyeOne Pro (not the cheaper "Eye One", but the "Pro" version which is a true spectrophotometer) and a third-party color management application (i.e. not the Gretag stuff).

The color gamut range and outright color accuracy from these monitors is fantastic. I've yet to find anything - at any price - that comes close. They run rings about the ACDs, IMHO. But then at over 2,500 for a 21 inch LCD, you'd certainly expect them to ;)

Interesting that you say that your Barcos beat the ACDs. What calibration software and hardware are you using?

ATD
Jan 19, 2006, 11:29 AM
I have some Eizo CG210 monitors. Using the Eizo bundled software for calibration, along with a 'puck' Gretag EyeOne Pro (not the cheaper "Eye One", but the "Pro" version which is a true spectrophotometer) and a third-party color management application (i.e. not the Gretag stuff).

The color gamut range and outright color accuracy from these monitors is fantastic. I've yet to find anything - at any price - that comes close. They run rings about the ACDs, IMHO. But then at over £2,500 for a 21 inch LCD, you'd certainly expect them to ;)

Interesting that you say that your Barcos beat the ACDs. What calibration software and hardware are you using?


Hardware on the Barcos (the one that's tied to the Ref Cal), nothing yet on the ACD, just got it. My Barcos are coming in at just over a Delta E of 1. From what I read the ACD is only going to get an Delta E of 6 with a Hardware Calibrator. I have even read that a Hardware Calibrator on a ACD has little effect. What are your feelings about that and do you have any suggestions?

geeman
Jan 20, 2006, 03:36 AM
OK, that makes more sense. The ACD is fighting with one glove behind its back! :p

Getting a Delta E of 1 is pretty impressive from those Barcos you have. I'd dispute that a hardware calibrator would have little effect on an ACD. From my experience, a Delta E of between 1 and 1.5 isn't so hard to achieve with an ACD.

As you probably know, a big part of it lies in the creation of a good profile. Unfortunately not all profile creation applications are created equal! The Gretag ProfileMaker software, or the X-Rite MonacoProfiler apps are both pretty good. The X-Rite app is a bit better IMHO since it allows you to set a custom white-point (not just D50, D65, etc.) so you could, for example, take a reading off the printed substrate while its in a viewing booth and use that as your white point.

There's some good info on monitor calibration procedures on the SWOP website (http://www.swop.org). There are also some papers from manufacturers of SWOP-certified proofing systems for download. Taking a quick look, it seems that ACDs or Eizos are the preferred monitor.

ATD
Jan 20, 2006, 12:43 PM
geeman, that's good to hear, I'm happy with any monitor that is close to 1 Delta E. If I can get the ACD to that I have no problem leaving the Barcos because I do like the look and feel of the ACD. I used XRites with the Barcos many years ago and liked them. Do you suggest the MonacoOPTIX-XR PRO or the MonacoOPTIX and is the extra control of the MonacoOPTIX-XR PRO needed?


For the benefit of others who want to know what we are talking about, Delta E is a measurement of color correctness. A Delta E of 0 means there is no difference between the actual color and how it's displayed. A measurement of 1 is the first point the human eye can detect the difference between two tones. There has been a lot of back and forth for years about which type of monitor (CRT or LCD) that's going to get better numbers. It good to hear that LCDs are getting much better.

Stratification
Jan 20, 2006, 03:19 PM
I haven't been able to sit down in front of one of these screens yet. Just a quick question to possibly add to the discussion. Is there any color shift dependent on viewing angle? It doesn't help much if the color is spot on when I'm dead center, but changes if I move. I've been mulling over the whole LCD vs CRT debate in preparation for my next monitor also.

ATD
Jan 21, 2006, 12:01 AM
I haven't been able to sit down in front of one of these screens yet. Just a quick question to possibly add to the discussion. Is there any color shift dependent on viewing angle? It doesn't help much if the color is spot on when I'm dead center, but changes if I move. I've been mulling over the whole LCD vs CRT debate in preparation for my next monitor also.


Sitting in front of the computer I can move my head more than a foot to either side without seeing any change in the color. Not a precise measurement there. ;) Sure, if you stand up and view it from a 45 degree angle you are going to get that LCD glare. These are far better than the first LCDs that came out years ago.

geeman
Jan 21, 2006, 03:27 AM
Do you suggest the MonacoOPTIX-XR PRO or the MonacoOPTIX and is the extra control of the MonacoOPTIX-XR PRO needed?

The "pro" version is the one that I have. It offers addtional features such as a graphing tool that allows you to see how the displays drift over time, and therefore establish the most efficient profiling schedules. I think that it's only the "pro" version that allows custom white-point setting (but I may be wrong about this bit).

Anyway, at the end of the day the Pro version is only about 70 bucks more that the standard version...:)

Don't forget to budget for a "puck". IMO you can't get profiles of the quality that you and I are talking about using the bundled colorimeter. You need to spend the moolahs and buy a real spectrophotometer. The cheapest one that will do the trick is the Gretag I mentioned earlier, though your Barco might well be OK if it works with the MonacoOPTIX-XR PRO software.


Glad to be of help!

ATD
Jan 21, 2006, 11:56 AM
The "pro" version is the one that I have. It offers addtional features such as a graphing tool that allows you to see how the displays drift over time, and therefore establish the most efficient profiling schedules. I think that it's only the "pro" version that allows custom white-point setting (but I may be wrong about this bit).

Anyway, at the end of the day the Pro version is only about 70 bucks more that the standard version...:)

Don't forget to budget for a "puck". IMO you can't get profiles of the quality that you and I are talking about using the bundled colorimeter. You need to spend the moolahs and buy a real spectrophotometer. The cheapest one that will do the trick is the Gretag I mentioned earlier, though your Barco might well be OK if it works with the MonacoOPTIX-XR PRO software.



Glad to be of help!


Thanks, the pro version it is. Barco and XRite have always played well together so I'll see how it goes.

billy_d_goat
Jan 25, 2006, 11:55 AM
I've consulted several of my design/pre-press clients to compliment their old 9 workstations with 20" iMacs. The screen of the 20, besides being larger, is higher quality than the 17". All of them love it. I'm a bit pickier and I'm still sticking with my tried and true ViewSonic CRT. But, after seeing that the LCDs are really quite usable, I'll probably switch on my next major machine upgrade.

decksnap
Jan 25, 2006, 05:32 PM
While we mostly use Lacie Electron Blue's at work...

This is what we use at the office also. I second this recommendation, but unfortunately I think you'll find the prices actually quite similar to the LCDs. I have an ACD at home, and while it looks great, I find it a bit gritty. Kind of hard to explain.

vohdoun
Jan 25, 2006, 08:44 PM
This is what we use at the office also. I second this recommendation, but unfortunately I think you'll find the prices actually quite similar to the LCDs. I have an ACD at home, and while it looks great, I find it a bit gritty. Kind of hard to explain.

The screen coating or all the crystals are heavier than most other displays?

decksnap
Jan 26, 2006, 07:42 AM
'crystally' is a good word. I don't know if all LCDs are like this or just the ACDs, I don't have much exerience with them.

vohdoun
Jan 26, 2006, 04:20 PM
I have noticed its more noticeable on the ACD than others, but its not much. You do quickly get use to it thats if you're not sitting too close? Strangely though I have found the default Tiger walls seem to show it up more than any other wall or its just an illusion to me...

Other TFT's I have you hardly notice this unless you really focus on it and I mean really look up close. I do find the clarity on the Apple displays much better for design. Plus best of all the alumunium is not distracting like most monitors that have a black surround, which always seem to draw your eyes at times as where the silver is it seems to dim down in lighting enviroments and you focus on your work.

decksnap
Jan 26, 2006, 04:26 PM
I have noticed its more noticeable on the ACD than others, but its not much. You do quickly get use to it thats if you're not sitting too close? Strangely though I have found the default Tiger walls seem to show it up more than any other wall or its just an illusion to me...

Other TFT's I have you hardly notice this unless you really focus on it and I mean really look up close. I do find the clarity on the Apple displays much better for design. Plus best of all the alumunium is not distracting like most monitors that have a black surround, which always seem to draw your eyes at times as where the silver is it seems to dim down in lighting enviroments and you focus on your work.

Thanks- I'm not crazy! Trying to explain this phenomenon in another forum was to no avail. It really DOES make the default wallpaper, as well as many other Apple wallpapers and images in general look pretty bad.

Lenora
Jan 30, 2006, 04:53 PM
I haven't been able to sit down in front of one of these screens yet. Just a quick question to possibly add to the discussion. Is there any color shift dependent on viewing angle? It doesn't help much if the color is spot on when I'm dead center, but changes if I move. I've been mulling over the whole LCD vs CRT debate in preparation for my next monitor also.

This is exactly what I meant when I said color inconsistency. In reality, maybe what I should have said was color intensity or brightness or something, but I cannot get past the fact that on many of the LCD monitors I was looking at in stores, offices, etc, there was a huge dark/light difference on the screen from top to bottom. Some people (salesmen and people using the monitors) actually said they could not see what I was talking about, even when, with our heads at the same angle, I pointed to the top of the screen and the bottom and said, "Do you see the difference in colors?" on a background that was all one color (especially a light color).

So, I am back with a nice CRT, which, for my purposes, is very satisfactory.

Could it be some people don't see the same things? My son and I see the dark/light thing on almopst all monitors and TVs but my husbamd can't see it.