iTunes MiniStore Now Issues Warning

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

After Apple issued the iTunes 6.0.2 (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/01/20060110170215.shtml) update last week, which introduced a feature called the MiniStore, complaints surfaced (http://since1968.com/article/153/itunes-is-watching) that Apple had added the equivalent of spyware (http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/11/itunes_update_spies_.html), by having iTunes transmit and react to the songs you click on whenever the MiniStore is open.

Apple has now changed the MiniStore so that iTunes users see an explanation and are asked to confirm use of the MiniStore before it is first used.

In the MiniStore pane, iTunes now displays a message:

The iTunes MiniStore allows you to discover new music and videos right from your iTunes Library. As you select items in your Library, information about that item is sent to Apple and the MiniStore will show you related songs or videos. Apple does not keep any information related to the contents of your music Library.

Would you like to turn on the MiniStore now?
It is not necessary to update iTunes to activate this feature.

[Doctor Q]

The new screen:

[Lacero]

The MiniStore was never spyware, but this should have been put in place from the beginning. Can't give ammunition to people who cry the sky's falling. But of course, my iTunes library is my private oasis, and Apple did invade this digital barrier, so shame on Apple.Here's to the Crazy Ones http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35452 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/movies/think-different.mov)

[Sunrunner]

The MiniStore was never spyware, but this should have been put in place from the beginning. Can't give ammunition to people who cry the sky's falling. But of course, my iTunes library is my private oasis, and Apple did invade this digital barrier, so shame on Apple.Here's to the Crazy Ones http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35452 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/movies/think-different.mov)


I agree. THeir little foray into agressive salesmanship leaves much to be desired...

[mdavey]

shame on Apple.

Kudos for putting it right, thou. ;)

[baleensavage]

I'm glad to see that they have offered this fix. They should have offered more documentation or instruction from the start. I for one don't like it at all and the way to turn it off was not readily apparent. It's way too "Amazon.com" for me. Any of this targeted shopping stuff really comes too close to Big Brother. I'm sure Apple isn't stroring that info now, but the capability to do so is there to be exploited. It also takes up too much of the real estate on the iTunes window and makes it difficult to scroll through the library.

[nagromme]

I quick summary to cleanse away the FUD:

* The Mini Store never scanned your library or your playing habits. It only registered when you manually double-clicked a particular song you wanted to hear.

* That song's information is indeed your personal data, of a sort, but was never stored or tracked by Apple.

* It was however send to the music store servers like a search, to retrieve recommendations. That much is obvious without a warning, but not everyone would stop and think about how the recommendations get there.

* So Apple should have had a note on-screen telling people that's what happens and how to turn it off.

* Now they do have that note.

* But it was always easy to turn it off before too--from the menu or from a button right on the iTunes windows.

* That button isn't new, it was always there. Only the explanatory note is new, and the fact that the Mini Store is turned off by default now.

* And when the Mini Store is turned off, it does no searching and thus sends no data to or from the music store servers. This too was true all along.

* The Mini Store is annoying, wastes screen space, is commercially-motivated (and probably successful), and lacks class. Most people probably turned it off even without an explanation of the recommendation process. It's good that it's off by default now.

* The Mini Store should always have worked this way, showing an explanation before it is used. Apple was wrong not to do that. Even if it was harmless in this case, Apple crossed a line I don't want crossed.

* People complaining to Apple were effective in changing this for the better. I give them credit, not just Apple.

* This was never comparable to Windows spyware which runs all the time and intrudes on your privacy in deep ways and then stores/tracks your behavior over time, with no obvious way to turn it off.

* The fact that Apple could add the note of explanation without using Software Update does not indicate Apple intruding on your machine or changing executable somehow without an admin password. The note is simply called up by the Mini Store, which obviously is delivered remotely. Many other store messages have always been triggered remotely--it's the only way an online store can work.

* In short, your library was never scanned, your music habits were never stored, the annoying Mini Store was always optional, and Apple screwed up by not asking you first--but they've fixed that.

[Doctor Q]

I notice that you are asked "Would you like to turn on the MiniStore now?" but given only one button to click, namely the "Turn on MiniStore" button.

I'm sure most people will figure out to click the open/close button (following the arrow) if their answer is "No", but if I had designed this panel I would have had two buttons, such as "Turn on MiniStore" or "Leave MiniStore Off".

[rendezvouscp]

I don't use the MiniStore, so it has been off since day one. I'm really glad that they've made theses additions. It's much more user friendly now. Thanks for the graphic Doctor Q!
-Chasen

[Bern]

It never bothered me to begin with.

[puckhead193]

honestly who cares.... so they see what music i listen too..... its not that bad... (my music collection) :rolleyes: ;)
It doesn't matter any way they see what music i buy from itms anyway...

[BlizzardBomb]

If you think it's spyware you must be paranoid. I actually think it's an improvement on "Just For You". Didn't look right on the front page to me.

[azzurri000]

I didn't even know my itunes had this feature! Wow, where have I been?!

It kind of reminds me of the yahoo launch online personal radio, as it recommends other music one might enjoy, and I discovered a lot of music that I really enjoy this way.

edit :just noticed that I don't have the right update

[LimeiBook86]

Well I don't mind it really, it actually helped me find an album I didn't have. I turned it off for now though, seems to slow down my poor little PowerBook. If I want to see what things are similar I can always turn it on, and if I feel like I don't need it anymore I can turn it off. It's simple, no uninstalling or anything, so I don't think it's really spyware since it's telling you that it's going to transfer information, plus it's very simple to turn off so it's alright in my book. :D

[zelmo]

I'm glad they made the fix, just to appease people who were bothered by it or were concerned they were collecting info on you.
Personally, I can see the mini store being of use now and again. I don't always make time to keep up with new music, and this expands on the "just for you" idea by referencing the music I listen to, and not just the music I have purchased from iTMS(which is usually one hit wonders or songs I remember from younger days, and is not completely aligned with my typical musical tastes).

Now, if there were no easy way to toggle this feature on/off.....

[ipacmm]

I don't use the MiniStore, so it has been off since day one. I'm really glad that they've made theses additions. It's much more user friendly now. Thanks for the graphic Doctor Q!
-Chasen

Same with me, I was never into the MiniStore because I really don't buy that much off of the itms so I really could care less about this feature, but I am glad to hear Apple changing it around so the users will be happy.

[LimeiBook86]

Now, if there were no easy way to toggle this feature on/off.....
Now if that were the case.....whoa-ho...things would have gotten ugly. ;)

[Superdrive]

See, the thing that got me with the ministore was the waste of screen real estate. Why would I want the bottom third of my library taken away? If I want to shop for music based on what is in my library, I'll click the arrow that they put next to everything in my library.

Regarding the spyware issue, anything that sends your information is spyware in the Windows world. If AIM remembers your password, it is spyware (well, not that serious, but you get what I mean). I figure that Apple is already tracking what I listen to and have in my library/playlists. If they wanted to track that info for whatever reason, they'd be more covert about it.

Now if they were browsing another library I had on the computer, then there would be issues...

[PlaceofDis]

its a nice feature if its a new artist that i'm lookin into and what not. but ill leave it off all the time because it is a waste of space, i don't need a cluttered iTunes. :)

[nagromme]

Just to be clear, Apple does NOT already track your library and playlists. They have no idea what's in your iTunes collection unless you bought it from them, in which case of course they have a record of your purchase.

[emaja]

It kind of reminds me of the yahoo launch online personal radio, as it recommends other music one might enjoy, and I discovered a lot of music that I really enjoy this way.

I completely agree. I thought it was great. I love the recommendations and found some things that I would not have discovered without their suggestions. I saw that it requested permission to launch today and gladly said "yes."

[shamino]

Just to be clear, Apple does NOT already track your library and playlists. They have no idea what's in your iTunes collection unless you bought it from them, in which case of course they have a record of your purchase.
It would be interesting to compare the set of people demanding absolute privacy and anonymity with those demanding that Apple give them the ability to re-download purchased songs. I would be very amused (but not surprised) to find significant overlap between these groups :D

[zim]

i like how it shows me music related to the artist i have selected in my own library... i do wish that instead of showing me the top artist etc.. that i could customize it so that it show me things that i am interested in.

[bankshot]

Now if that were the case.....whoa-ho...things would have gotten ugly. ;)

Heh. If you'd read the discussion over at Slashdot (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/11/1619259), you'd think iTunes was sending your hard drive's entire contents to Apple for analysis. Talk about paranoid hyperventilating! The title of the article there is even heavily accusatory: iTunes is Malware? Boy did that set off the tin foil hat freaks... :rolleyes:

Apple should have put in this message from the start, but honestly. Who cares if song info from a portion of your music collection is sent? What's the worst somebody could do with it? Make fun of your musical tastes? Ooooh. :p The Slashdot posters made it out to sound like it would destroy your life and half your family too. Kind of amusing. :D

[Doctor Q]

It would be interesting to compare the set of people demanding absolute privacy and anonymity with those demanding that Apple give them the ability to re-download purchased songs. I would be very amused (but not surprised) to find significant overlap between these groups :DI'm in both groups. I'm not really demanding privacy, as much as wanting to know what privacy I have and having control over it, the same way I am with other companies I do business with.

And if I show proof that I bought a song and it didn't download properly, I'd want to get it replaced, like taking defective merchandise back to a store with a receipt. Knowing that it costs Apple very little for the bandwidth, I'd also find it helpful if Apple let me redownload a song (for free or for a few cents) even if I erased it due to my own carelessness, not because of anything they did.

But I agree that some people are much more extreme about the two sides of the issue.

[shamino]

I'm in both groups. I'm not really demanding privacy, as much as wanting to know what privacy I have and having control over it...

And if I show proof that I bought a song and it didn't download properly, I'd want to get it replaced...
I was referring to the more extreme opinions.

I've seen people say that Apple has no right to retain any information whatsoever about your music listening habits - not even the list of stuff you bought from iTMS.

And I've also seen people say that they you should always be able to pull up a list of what you've purchased and be able to re-download any or all of the songs at any time. (I happen to be in this camp.)

Clearly, someone in both camps is either completely clueless or enjoys complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Goliath]

Does anybody know if the mini store just collects the artist/album/song id3 info or all of the info held in the id3 tag??

[Doctor Q]

Does anybody know if the mini store just collects the artist/album/song id3 info or all of the info held in the id3 tag??"Collect" may be the wrong word for it, since it doesn't retain the information, but your question is about what information it uses.

I haven't read up on the details, but it seems logical that it would need only enough information to identify the song so it could look it up in a database.

If you change all your song information, I wonder if it would recommend the wrong other music. Has anybody tried this?

[shamino]

If you change all your song information, I wonder if it would recommend the wrong other music. Has anybody tried this?
Just did. Changed the "Artist" field of a track from "Bill Cosby" to "Nirvana". The mini-store showed a selection of Nirvana albums when selecting the track.

It's clearly just looking at the index data in the database (title, artist, album, etc.) and not at the file's content.

[Doctor Q]

From an editorial in today's Los Angeles Times:Apple Computer did something unusual this week: It acknowledged a mistake and changed course. That's not quite as big a deal as the pope admitting Galileo was right about the whole Earth-orbiting-the-sun thing, but it's close.

...

Apple shrugged off the complaints at first, saying users could turn off the MiniStore if they didn't like it. Besides, Apple said, it didn't store any of the information it received. Late Tuesday, however, the company quietly changed the feature to give users more information and control over whether to activate it. For a company with a public attitude that often borders on the self-righteous, it was a surprising turnabout.

...

Give credit to Apple for responding as quickly as it did and for changing the MiniStore's default state from "on" to "off." Temporarily gathering information on users' tastes in entertainment isn't nearly as objectionable as, say, secretly installing software on their computers that hackers could exploit, as Sony BMG notoriously did with its copy-protected CDs last year. But even die-hard Mac users care about their privacy, and they should be the ones deciding whether to part with any of it.

[EricNau]

Those who aren't doing anything wrong, don't have anything to worry about.

So anybody that complains about it, I can only assume...

[sunfast]

So if the Mini Store is turned off (as mine is), does that mean info about my currently playing track is not being sent to Apple? It doesn't run in the background or whatever?

[-hh]

I notice that you are asked "Would you like to turn on the MiniStore now?" but given only one button to click, namely the "Turn on MiniStore" button.

Yes, I noticed that too - - -

I'm sure most people will figure out to click the open/close button (following the arrow) if their answer is "No",

I wouldn't take that bet.


but if I had designed this panel I would have had two buttons, such as "Turn on MiniStore" or "Leave MiniStore Off".

Same here: the failure to clearly provide the choices violates *ALL* basic principles for a design interface.

As such, while Apple has technically met a "letter of the law" of offering the consumer a choice, they have clearly violated the spirt of what the basic concept of "choice" means. Interfaces like this are a Windows-esque "railroading" of the consumer to try to fool them into doing what the Company wants.

Such underhanded behavior is unethical IMNSO. Yes, I know these are strong words, but there is absolutely no other excuse for such a blatantly misleading interface...this was no accident.

I feel sorry for the software writer who knew what he was doing was wrong, but had to do what he was told to do by his Apple manager.



-hh

[EricNau]

I notice that you are asked "Would you like to turn on the MiniStore now?" but given only one button to click, namely the "Turn on MiniStore" button.

I'm sure most people will figure out to click the open/close button (following the arrow) if their answer is "No", but if I had designed this panel I would have had two buttons, such as "Turn on MiniStore" or "Leave MiniStore Off".
I'm not sure what the problem is. It does have two buttons; one says "Turn on MiniStore" and the other says "Turn MiniStore off by clicking here."

[misterman8]

Those who aren't doing anything wrong, don't have anything to worry about.

So anybody that complains about it, I can only assume...


That's a pretty narrowly construed interpretation of the issue at hand. Yes some don't want to reveal their less than legal actions. But others may just be concerned with their general privacy. Which, as consumers, we are all going to face in a more dramatic way in the coming year considering the implications of certain technological developments (e.g. RFID Passive tags).

It's not necessarily exclusively about Apple having the information either; it's also about the ease at which the government can access it. In many ways it's akin to allowing the government to know what is on my bookshelf, be it music, or literature. And although there aren't a tremendous amount of controversial books on "tape" available at iTunes, as the library grows the integrity of my choices of materials does matter. It's hard to say how invasive the legal system will allow future governmental departments or even employers to be; so as a precaution it is a good idea to demand your right to privacy now.

[aussie_in_uk]

I really don't see what the problem is. The mini-store has already helped me find some new music for my Itunes collection.
Very handy tool.
The more Apple knew about my musical tastes, the more they will be able to serve up more great stuff for my musical entertainment.
Remember - I think, therefore I am - if you think the sky is falling the and world is trying to get you - it probably will.

[BlueRevolution]

I think it's an eyesore marring iTunes' clean lines, and it should certainly be off by default. privacy issue, not really. certainly no more than the trust we put in Google not to log every search term we make. (I actually think they do, catagorically... how else would they know "sex" is one of the most searched words? ;) )

side note, wouldn't following Aqua specs put the mini store in a drawer? then again, when has Apple ever paid any attention to them. hell, they wrote the book...

and, misterman8, you hit the nail on the head. I don't feel comfortable about anyone knowing more about me than they have any business to. and that goes for everything from my bank to the credit card applications I get even at 18 to my employer. sure they need to know something (except for the credit card companies), but I won't give them any more than I have to. if a company asks me to fill out a form online and asks for information I don't think they have a right to know, I fill it as follows:

First name: ****
Last name: off
Address: 12345 67 Ave

and so on it goes. they have no business even knowing my name and I'm not going to give it to them. I still don't care if Apple knows the names of some of the artists I enjoy. that's not a breach of my carefully guarded privacy as far as I'm concerned.

[-hh]

I'm not sure what the problem is. It does have two buttons; one says "Turn on MiniStore" and the other says "Turn MiniStore off by clicking here."

YMMV, but we have a different definition of "buttons".

The dialog in question has one button within it ("YES"), and an arrow that points out of its window. AFAIC, that's one button to click, not two.

Yes, technically speaking, the arrow points to another button, but that's not a "NO" button - - its actually a window dialog display toggle.

Since I'm not presently willing to try this, someone else can try hitting the "yes" button and then reporting back what the "I changed my mind, turn it off" button looks like. Do note that merely *hiding the dialog* is not the same as actually turning it off.


-hh

[howesey]

Heh. If you'd read the discussion over at Slashdot (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/11/1619259), you'd think iTunes was sending your hard drive's entire contents to Apple for analysis. Talk about paranoid hyperventilating! The title of the article there is even heavily accusatory: iTunes is Malware? Boy did that set off the tin foil hat freaks... :rolleyes:

Apple should have put in this message from the start, but honestly. Who cares if song info from a portion of your music collection is sent? What's the worst somebody could do with it? Make fun of your musical tastes? Ooooh. :p The Slashdot posters made it out to sound like it would destroy your life and half your family too. Kind of amusing. :DLet me guess, and most of these people are using Windows?

If you are not happy with the ministore, then you should have not accepted the licence agreement.

Put a packet sniffer on t machine and have a look at what is sent to Microsoft, it's scary! I never realised that Word would send Microsoft e-mail addresses if you type them in. Startup IE, and it will send Microsoft a copy of all the programs you have installed. Why do they need this data? They do not say what is sent in their privacy policy, but the licence for Windows says that all the data that you have on any computer that has Windows installed is property of Microsoft. Even Office says in the licence that all things created in their apps the copyright belongs to Microsoft.

[cb911]

spyware? :rolleyes:

i was surprised to see the MiniStore cluttering my iTunes window, but the recommendations are good.

some people just trump everything up.

[Some_Big_Spoon]

It's not so much that it "scanned" (which I guess it doesn't), it's just that it's tacky. It's such an over the top, in your face, used-car salesman thing to have. My gut tells me they'll nix it in a later build since there's been all this fuss, but if they don't, they should.

[EricNau]

It's not so much that it "scanned" (which I guess it doesn't), it's just that it's tacky. It's such an over the top, in your face, used-car salesman thing to have. My gut tells me they'll nix it in a later build since there's been all this fuss, but if they don't, they should.
Why should they get rid of it? If you don't like it, then turn it off. It's not hurting you by just being there.
I'm sure there are many who actually like it (I do).

[beatle888]

honestly who cares.... so they see what music i listen too..... its not that bad... (my music collection) :rolleyes: ;)
It doesn't matter any way they see what music i buy from itms anyway...


give an inch and you'll lose a mile.

[moooosedude]

i give it till the next build. then its either gone, or atleast set to off when the software is installed. people who like it can just go in and turn it back on. most people will just go on happily living without it

[Truffy]

I notice that you are asked "Would you like to turn on the MiniStore now?" but given only one button to click, namely the "Turn on MiniStore" button.

I'm sure most people will figure out to click the open/close button (following the arrow) if their answer is "No", but if I had designed this panel I would have had two buttons, such as "Turn on MiniStore" or "Leave MiniStore Off".
I would like a third button ... "Remove this functionality from the Interface". Or it could be in the prefs. Problem is, IMO, some of the iTunes buttons are not too obvious as to what they mean. Yes you get the tooltip, eventually, but there is the chance of accidentally or ignorantly, activating the inistore, and I would rather it wasn't there at all.

[Johnny Rico]

See http://www.pandora.com/ for a neat interface that introduces new music based on your input.

[Counterfit]

Heh. If you'd read the discussion over at Slashdot (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/11/1619259), you'd think iTunes was sending your hard drive's entire contents to Apple for analysis. Talk about paranoid hyperventilating! The title of the article there is even heavily accusatory: iTunes is Malware? Boy did that set off the tin foil hat freaks... :rolleyes:

Apple should have put in this message from the start, but honestly. Who cares if song info from a portion of your music collection is sent? What's the worst somebody could do with it? Make fun of your musical tastes? Ooooh. :p The Slashdot posters made it out to sound like it would destroy your life and half your family too. Kind of amusing. :D
They do that with everything on /. though, which is why I don't read anything on there anymore. Too much **** to wade through to get to the one decent post.

Such underhanded behavior is unethical IMNSO. Yes, I know these are strong words, but there is absolutely no other excuse for such a blatantly misleading interface...this was no accident.
I disagree. This was probably more of an oversight rather than a "let's get them to spend more money!!!1" thing.

[k3nx]

Personally I think this would be great if is DID scan my library and told me of things I wasn't paying any attention to. For instance it could notice that I listen to a particular band more often than not and that a majority of the songs from said band are rather high - obviously I like that music then they could say - "well here's an album from that band that you *don't* have" or even do the Amazon "recommended thingy", Bob Jones likes that band and he lines these guys too (it would be great if it was the same genre).

Make this an optional iTunes plugin and then those that want something like this can have it and the paranoid will know it's not even on there machine.

I'd even pay a few bucks for something like that.

[shamino]

Personally I think this would be great if is DID scan my library and told me of things I wasn't paying any attention to. For instance it could notice that I listen to a particular band more often than not and that a majority of the songs from said band are rather high - obviously I like that music then they could say - "well here's an album from that band that you *don't* have" or even do the Amazon "recommended thingy", Bob Jones likes that band and he lines these guys too (it would be great if it was the same genre).

Make this an optional iTunes plugin and then those that want something like this can have it and the paranoid will know it's not even on there machine.
Shouldn't be too hard to write a script to do this.

In the "iTunes Music Library.xml" file (which is XML, and therefore not hard to parse), all the fields are readily accessible.

It shouldn't be too hard to find artists where the play count (or the rating) is higher than average, but the play-date (most recent play timestamp) for all songs is more than, say, 60 days in the past. Once you have a list of matching artists, constructing an appropriate search URL shouldn't be that bad.

Building a list of recommended purchases is the hard part. Not in getting the list of albums, but in figuring out how to filter it. For instance, if Amazon lists the same album multiple times and you own one of them releases, do you want to see all the others or not? On the one hand, I might want to know about a new pressing that has bonus tracks. On the other hand, I really don't care if the exact same album has been released in 20 countries with different catalog numbers.

Ditto for near-matches. If I have a lot of Beatles songs, do I want to see albums by other bands containing Beatles covers? And is it even possible to do this without getting false-positives from unrelated songs with the same name. (like "Hell Yeah" by American Gentry vs. the same-titled song by Ginuwine)