Ford,GM,Chrysler

Dont Hurt Me · Jan 23, 2006

Well we all know that Ford is announcing the layoff of some 30,000 jobs today. Why is it that Honda,Toyota can make a very nice small car like Civic or Corolla yet GM,Ford just cant seem to do it? Plus the GM/Ford economy cars get like 5 MPG less in the city and highway? They just dont get it plus when you factor in quality they still dont get it. Seems Fords/GMs solution to quality is to make commercials stating how Quality is job 1 and other spin yet Toyota/Honda dont even bother with that because they are putting quality into the products and the consumer knows it. I blame the bean counters at both companies because when you start running a company with bean counters you are sure to run the company into the ground. When GM/Ford were jumping on the Big Hog SUV bandwagon Honda was still working on fuel thrifty cars knowing one day Gas prices would again go sky high and they would be ready with a great product like Civic. GM/Ford could give a hoot about MPG??? I blame management at both companys yet its the American workers who again get screwed. GM/Ford Management you deserve it!

On a side note we have a Mercury Mystique who's thin paint job began showing itself after only 2-3 years??? Quality isnt job one with the greedy big 3 and they reap what they sow which is loss sales. Look forward to our next car which will be a Toyota or Honda thats built in the U.S.A.

iGav · Jan 23, 2006

Dont Hurt Me said:
Why is it that Honda,Toyota can make a very nice small car like Civic or Corolla yet GM,Ford just cant seem to do it?

They can... (they just don't sell them in the U.S., or when they do, they're knocked together poorly by your native workforce) they're called the Ka, Fiesta, Focus... all of them drive vastly better than anything Honda or Toyota have on the market, are just as well screwed together and are infinitely more stylish.

Fords attention to drivers car in Europe are legendary... and really you have to look at BMW to get a noticably better drivers car. Whereas Toyota's and Honda's have a serious OAP image problem here.

As for economy, well Ford Europe currently develop diesels with PSA, whom just happen to make the best (performance, efficiency) diesel engines in the world.

Personally I don't think it's the soul fault of Ford U.S., I think a lot can be attributed to the attitude of the general population of America, the whole 'bigger is better mentality' (though obviously that doesn't apply to everyone of course).

Just a thought.

Dont Hurt Me · Jan 23, 2006

I disagree, those make you mention dont compare with Corolla or Civic in quality or in mpg. Example
Cobalt gets 25 mpg city 34 hwy ,fugly ugly car
Focus gets 26 mpg city 34 hwy

Now look at Honda Toyota
Civic gets 30 mpg city 40 hwy, very cool looking
Corolla gets 30 mpg city 38 hwy

Thats 5 or more miles to every gallon of gas! Start adding up those tanks of gas and its clear those domestic makes are inferior. Plus the domestic makes like Cobalt( looks like a cavalier) and Focus very angular look likes crap next to a Civic or Corolla in my view. While GM/Ford lobbied congress not to increase the gas milage requirements companies like Honda /Toyota just keeps making better engines,better engineering. GM/Ford would rather send millions to congress rather then millions in R & D that results in better products. In fact Ford makes more $$$ as a bank then it did as a maker of cars??? I think GM & Ford Management love money not cars hence falling behind Toyota with bean counters at the helm instead of enthusiasts.

Thanatoast · Jan 23, 2006

I do find it odd that the big 3 can't seem to design agood looking car (IMO, obviously). You'd figure American companies would have the advantage there.

Ford, GM and Chrysler also have to contend with their enormous pension and benefit plans, which were negotiated by a management team x years ago that obviously gave no thought to the future, not to mention the unions as well. Hindsight is obviously 20/20, but it shouldn't be so bad that the pension plans of the big 3 are dragging them all into the ground. Blech.

Dont Hurt Me · Jan 23, 2006

The former big 3 are allways stuck in the here and now while companies like Honda look forward to the future and even embrace it. I love the story of Honda who when asked by one of his kids why they were working so hard still on economy, mpg,engineering when the big 3 were building big big and bigger his reply was because gas wont allways be cheap. He was looking to the future, the greedy big 3 were looking at something else. Chevy styling looks like garbage these days i just had to mention that.

SharksFan22 · Jan 23, 2006

I think a previous poster hit on something that affects the American auto industry more than it does the Japanese, specifically the impact of the massive pension and healthcare programs instituted many years ago. While I can't quote it, I remember seeing somewhere recently that General Motors is one of the largest (top three, perhaps?) healthcare providers in the United States.

Dont Hurt Me · Jan 23, 2006

Sure they have the health care costs but so do Honda and Toyota. It boils down to who are making products people want? Also cant help but think when cops were getting killed driving fords, ford fixed those cars but on the assembly line they let those problems stay in the cars they were selling to everyday consumers. Thats american bean counter mentality. Ford & GM are getting what they deserve for building shoddy ugly low mpg products. Like i said earlier Gm would rather spin commercials and tell you how high MPG vehicles they have rather then really make them. I guess its something they learned from Bush & gang just keep telling the lie over and over some people will think its true. Anyone see GMs latest spin commercials acting like they make high mpg cars? Or Fords quality is job 1 crap? Our big 3 talk about it, Honda and Toyota really do it everyday without having to resort to propaganda.

SharksFan22 · Jan 23, 2006

Dont Hurt Me said:
Sure they have the health care costs but so do Honda and Toyota.

I believe that's the case. However, when measured on a per vehicle basis, GM pay far more per car than other manufacturers. This puts them as a major cost disadvantage at the outset.

Dont Hurt Me said:
It boils down to who are making products people want? Also cant help but think when cops were getting killed driving fords, ford fixed those cars but on the assembly line they let those problems stay in the cars they were selling to everyday consumers. Thats american bean counter mentality. Ford & GM are getting what they deserve for building shoddy ugly low mpg products. Like i said earlier Gm would rather spin commercials and tell you how high MPG vehicles they have rather then really make them. I guess its something they learned from Bush & gang just keep telling the lie over and over some people will think its true.

With out getting into a pro- or anti-Bush debate, while he may have lied, all presidents and politicians do it. Not that it's right, but it's just a reality.

Dont Hurt Me said:
Anyone see GMs latest spin commercials acting like they make high mpg cars? Or Fords quality is job 1 crap? Our big 3 talk about it, Honda and Toyota really do it everyday without having to resort to propaganda.

Depneds on what people are looking for. I won't argue that Honda and Toyota build cars that are well-engineered and reliable. I've owned each and they've delivered exactly as promised with no problems. But, sheesh, talk about a boring, appliance-like driving experiences!

For a significant group of people, mileage isn't as important as the media likes to make us think -- look at all the SUVs from every manufacturer (incl. Honda and Toyota) that people buy. That segment obviously values some other attribute higher than mileage, perhaps cargo space or comfort.

There are some winners out there -- the new Ford Fusion (Accord/Camry-fighter) is being met with great reviews. But, it would be nice to see more successes for the GM/Ford/Chrysler group.

~Shard~ · Jan 23, 2006

Mark my words, 2006 will be the year that Toyota surpasses GM as the #1 auto maker in the world - just as they rightfully should. Hopefully the American car makers will smarten up and learn a lesson or two.

iGav · Jan 23, 2006

Dont Hurt Me said:
I disagree, those make you mention dont compare with Corolla or Civic in quality or in mpg.

Quality wise, U.S. versions don't (see my comment about the U.S. workforce though) but I can assure you the UK/Euro models do.

Dont Hurt Me said:
Now look at Honda Toyota
Civic gets 30 mpg city 40 hwy, very cool looking
Corolla gets 30 mpg city 38 hwy

The only figures I have to hand... are from Autocar that takes an MPG figure from a set test route.

Focus 1.8 Zetec 40 MPG
Civic 1.6 43 MPG

Similar enough considering the performance advantage of the Focus, but hardly a significant difference, especially when that 3 mpg difference could vary between drivers and driving styles.

But I'd take driving dynamics over a measly 3 MPG anyday of the week...

especially when those extra 3 miles are going to be soooooo dull.

Dont Hurt Me said:
love the story of Honda who when asked by one of his kids why they were working so hard still on economy, mpg,engineering

And that's why Honda have gone back to torsion beam rear suspension layout... they don't focus on engineering as much as they'd want you to believe.

Though interestingly, it's only recently (2 years) that they began to take economy seriously, and actually release a diesel engine. And they had to, because of the popularity of diesel engines in Europe.

Ford U.S. though certainly has it's issues, but I still maintain that a contributory factor to this is the general attitude of the U.S. population towards their cars, and that reflects in the range of cars that Ford offers in the U.S.

Ford Europe however, is a very, VERY different company, and it's a shame that their U.S. arm do not look towards them more for inspiration.

iGav · Jan 23, 2006

~Shard~ said:
Hopefully the American car makers will smarten up and learn a lesson or two.

As will the population. We hope.

~Shard~ · Jan 23, 2006

iGav said:
Ford Europe however, is a very, VERY different company, and it's a shame that their U.S. arm do not look towards them more for inspiration.

I've noticed this my last few trips over the pond, and was quite surprised. As you say, they are almost like a different company when compared to their US counterparts.

iGav said:
As will the population. We hope

Nice one.

Dont Hurt Me · Jan 23, 2006

~Shard~ said:
Mark my words, 2006 will be the year that Toyota surpasses GM as the #1 auto maker in the world - just as they rightfully should. Hopefully the American car makers will smarten up and learn a lesson or two.

I doubt it, they learned nothing from the gas crises of the 70s and they are doing the same darn thing they did then. Nothing except money to congress to push whatever agenda they are on. If Honda can build a Civic that looks great and gets 30 - 40 mpg with no gimmicks why cant GM/Ford? Because bean counters run that show while In Honda & Toyota they have people who love cars running the show. Why is it that my sister in law can have a honda on 200,000 miles while i feel very lucky to get 80,000 out of the domestic make? It more crap from the big 3, Ford shuts down its plants while Toyota is building new plants.

aloofman · Jan 23, 2006

iGav said:
They can... (they just don't sell them in the U.S., or when they do, they're knocked together poorly by your native workforce) they're called the Ka, Fiesta, Focus... all of them drive vastly better than anything Honda or Toyota have on the market, are just as well screwed together and are infinitely more stylish.

I don't know about Europe's Focus, but the one sold here is one of the most recalled cars in recent history. And they started selling it here after it was already sold there, so you'd think that they would have learned to build them before we saw them. In spite of this, the Focus probably is the best small car the Big 3 have sold in the U.S., maybe ever. I know of no evidence that American auto workers are more inept than in the rest of the world. Besides, Honda and Toyota build many cars here that don't have the quality issues the Big 3 have had. I really don't think Ford and GM try very hard to build a good car. (And Dodge never really tried at all.)

iGav said:
Fords attention to drivers car in Europe are legendary... and really you have to look at BMW to get a noticably better drivers car. Whereas Toyota's and Honda's have a serious OAP image problem here.

It's funny that you would say that because it's the opposite here.

iGav said:
Personally I don't think it's the soul fault of Ford U.S., I think a lot can be attributed to the attitude of the general population of America, the whole 'bigger is better mentality' (though obviously that doesn't apply to everyone of course).

Just a thought.

There really is something to that. Until the price of gas goes up, Americans generally aren't that interested in small cars. Decades of growing up on lead sleds conditioned us all to want big cars. In addition to the gas prices, the U.S. is big with many wide-open spaces, with cities that have grown mostly since the car was invented, making big cars less impractical than they would be in Europe. These same factors make it harder to sell Americans on mass transit too.

andiwm2003 · Jan 23, 2006

ford sells with the FOCUS a car that is competitve in europe. so ford actually can produce modern cars. just here in the US they sell models from yesterday. gas guzzling dinosaurs with little appeal to modern drivers who have to worry about quality, efficiency and such. unfortunately 30,000 workers have to pay the prize for an outdated marketing and development strategy.
the same is true for GM as well of course.

edit: just read the post above. at least a few years ago i was considering to buy a focus and some of my friends actually did. everybody was happy with the car. it was a viable alternative to the VW's and the Toyota's. I haven't heard of quality problems with the Focus there either. VW's are considered good quality in Europe while here in the US they stink. Maybe they are manfactured in different factoried depending where they sell them.

aloofman · Jan 23, 2006

Dont Hurt Me said:
Sure they have the health care costs but so do Honda and Toyota.

This isn't quite true. It's not the healthcare for their current workers that's drowning the Big 3. It's the healthcare for their retirees, who are not only more numerous than their current workers, but they're also reaching old age right now, when healthcare costs the most. Honda and Toyota have been building cars in the U.S. for about 25 years (although their production was lower until fairly recently). So they don't have many older pensioners.

Almost all other cars that Honda and Toyota sell in the U.S. are built in Canada or Japan, two countries whose healthcare is paid for by the government.

Dont Hurt Me · Jan 23, 2006

GM/Ford will be blaming everything and anything they can, healthcare, UAW, rainy day, sunny day what have you. I blame a Management of bean counters who while counting beans never decided on making better products. I have heard many a story of problems in cars that GM just ignore for the production run and the sake of todays $$$. Honda /Toyota have a different philosophy of getting it right something thats alien to US management.

Example is gas milage Ford/Chevy small cars have the same piss poor milage as they did 20 years ago. They could care a less so today we have a god ugly Cobalt that gets the same gas economy as my 30 yr old MGB???? Screw off Ford and GM. Its just a shame that the workers get screwed and management walks home with its big stock deals, big money, and raises while closing american plants. The very ones who should be fired arent and the ones busting butt to build the car get laid off. Management or lack of is to blame for Ford & GM not the worker. Those millions they pay the big wiggs could pay a lot of health care costs but no they keep the very bastards reponsible for sinking the company while closing the factory. Everything starts with those millionaires who run these companys. Greedy bastards get what they deserve.

Counterfit · Jan 23, 2006

dont hurt me said:
I disagree, those make you mention dont compare with Corolla or Civic in quality or in mpg. Example
Cobalt gets 25 mpg city 34 hwy ,fugly ugly car
Focus gets 26 mpg city 34 hwy

Now look at Honda Toyota
Civic gets 30 mpg city 40 hwy, very cool looking
Corolla gets 30 mpg city 38 hwy

Let's look at the power shall we?
From the bottom:
Corolla CE/S/LE: 1.8L I-4, 126HP, 122lb-ft
Focus (ZX3?): 2.0L I-4, 136/136 (or in green states, 130/129)
Civic coupe DX: 1.8L I-4, 140/128
Cobalt coupe LS/LT: 2.2L I-4, 145/155

The Honda is ULEV, both engines in the Focus are SULEV, and I didn't see any mention of emissions for the Toyota or Chevy, but I presume both are ULEV. The Corolla MPG you listed was for the CE/S/LE with automatic transmission, with manual, it's 32/41. The XRS is 26/34, with a 164HP/125lb-ft engine. The Cobalt comes with a Getrag transmission, which I suppose should be noted. You can find your own damn acceleration figures. I recommend checking Road&Track, rather than factory claims, because their test is repeatable in the real world.
Now, as far as design goes, I have yet to see a Toyota that isn't bland or ugly. I guess they just can't find the middle.
I also don't know why I went through all that trouble, because I'd rather have a Subaru anyway.

Dont Hurt Me · Jan 23, 2006

The bottom line is customer is king and the customer isnt running into those show rooms of GM/Ford yet they are going into the Honda and Toyota. I dont need 200- 300hp to get to 20 miles down the road. Wether you are talking mileage, or quality GMs and Ford offerings dont match Toyota or Honda. And god help GM and its ugly boring styling YUCK!

just think every gallon of gas can take you another 5 miles down the road in the Honda or Toyota. That adds up. Management of Ford and GM are soul less and so are reaping what they sow.

Jon'sLightBulbs · Jan 23, 2006

Hurt Me, what other Fords have you owned? I'm just curious.

Dont Hurt Me · Jan 23, 2006

Jon'sLightBulbs said:
Hurt Me, what other Fords have you owned? I'm just curious.

Ford Exp engine started going after only 70,000 miles

bought new
Grand Marquis was a good car but it like to shut off on rainy days???bought used
Mustang when they came out with the new body they are still using today but cant remember what year that was. It was a good car. Had to sell(sad)
Own a Mercury Mystique 98 at the moment hitting 90,000 miles been pretty good but has things like water that leaks into its rear tail lights and paint that started to fade away bad after only 2 years. very poor paint job on this car it was a demo.

garybUK · Jan 23, 2006

Do they sell the Focus ST over there? because that beauty is a really nice car. Volvo 5 Cylinder 2.2ltr Engine with Turbo Charger doing 222bhp and it handles really nicely (Aparantly).

http://www.ford.co.uk:80/safari/foc_c307/-/-/foc_st/-/3/28/

Vauxhall/Opel (GM) have their Astra VXR (Very nice!!) which is similar to the Focus ST.

Chrysler make some awful cars, that new 300C or whatever is the ugliest looking car ever, looks worse than a Lada Riva!

Dont Hurt Me · Jan 23, 2006

garybUK said:
Do they sell the Focus ST over there? because that beauty is a really nice car. Volvo 5 Cylinder 2.2ltr Engine with Turbo Charger doing 222bhp and it handles really nicely (Aparantly).

http://www.ford.co.uk:80/safari/foc_c307/-/-/foc_st/-/3/28/

Vauxhall/Opel (GM) have their Astra VXR (Very nice!!) which is similar to the Focus ST.

Chrysler make some awful cars, that new 300C or whatever is the ugliest looking car ever, looks worse than a Lada Riva!

Let me ask you where can you use 220 hp in such a little car unless you won a race track?? Speed limits are speed limits, GM/Chrysler/Ford have gotton carried away on offering superpowerful engines when we have no autobahn. Those are nice for the young trying to get dates but realworld economy affects most working folks and GM/Ford missed the boat for the 2nd time. Gas isnt going to get cheaper as China/India and the world comes on line its only going to go up. Honda's 30 -40 mpg Civic is very impressive vs Focus or the ugly Cobalt(GAG).

garybUK · Jan 23, 2006

Dont Hurt Me said:
Let me ask you where can you use 220 hp in such a little car unless you won a race track?? Speed limits are speed limits, GM/Chrysler/Ford have gotton carried away on offering superpowerful engines when we have no autobahn. Those are nice for the young trying to get dates but realworld economy affects most working folks and GM/Ford missed the boat for the 2nd time. Gas isnt going to get cheaper as China/India and the world comes on line its only going to go up. Honda's 30 -40 mpg Civic is very impressive vs Focus or the ugly Cobalt(GAG).

Actually I get 35 - 38mpg in my Ford Fiesta 1.4ltr the 1.6ltr Petrol Focus does between 32 - 48 mpg depending where you drive it. The 1.6ltr Diesel Focus (very good engine as its a Peugeot/Citroen Ford design and is very popular) does about 55/60mpg.

Studawg7 · Jan 23, 2006

Dont Hurt Me said:
Let me ask you where can you use 220 hp in such a little car unless you won a race track?? Speed limits are speed limits...

i guess you have never driven around LA, DC or the Northeast. the "get up and go" factor when buying a car is usually high on potential buyers lists of wants.

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