Apple Objects to Microsoft-California Settlement

[MacRumors]

News.com (http://news.com.com/2100-1001-980491.html?tag=fd_top) reports that Apple is objecting to the tentative settlement between California and Microsoft:


Under the settlement terms, one-third of any unclaimed rebates will revert to Microsoft. The remaining amount will go to California public schools in a mix of cash and donated Microsoft software.

Apple made similar objections to a previous settlement proposal (http://news.com.com/2100-1001-808241.html) in Maryland... citing that the settlement itself was anti-competitive.

[MacAztec]

That is true. Giving away tons of software for M$ doesnt cost them 1 billion dollars. If someone were to BUY that software, it may cost that much. But to give it away, it just costs the price of making the CD and the packaging.

Its like me selling cookies. I sell a cookie for a dollar. Say I owe someone 10 cookies, I am NOT loosing 10 dollars.

I see Jobs' point. Microsoft is fine with giving away software, it just stresses their products to be used even MORE. If they just gave 1 billion dollars to the California School District, that would be fine. We dont NEED the magic school bus. Our class needs a few macs (PCs are HORRIBLE here) and new school wiring, and new programs.

[MacCoaster]

Of course Apple would object. What's the surprise? :p

Sad truth is that if they were given only money, they'd probably go to a Microsoft solution anyway, because most likely most educational applications run fine natively on Windows, when you would need classic in Mac OS X.

Go figure... Mac OS X isn't doing so well in education. That's a shame. Go bitch at those educational software makers to port to Mac OS X. :D

[dricci]

Yeah, ever notice how these "settlements" Microsoft agrees to always benefits them by giving them yet more users for their monopoly? There's just no justice... :(

I'm glad Apple has enough balls to say something about it.

[G4scott]

microsoft sux... That's all that I have to say. Instead of being punished, they're just getting more money... microsoft products don't sell like normal products... Their initial price is nothing, it's the price of the upgrades and service fees that make the real money...

[medea]

The problem isnt really that is isnt going to cost Microsoft enough money, but that by supplying schools with their software they are gaining more ground in the educational dept, I mean why would a settlement to an anit-monopoly suit include gaining more of a monopoly? Microsoft should have to give the amount to the school and the school could then decide what they wanted to buy with it, Macs or what not....

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by MacCoaster
Of course Apple would object. What's the surprise? :p

Sad truth is that if they were given only money, they'd probably go to a Microsoft solution anyway, because most likely most educational applications run fine natively on Windows, when you would need classic in Mac OS X.

Go figure... Mac OS X isn't doing so well in education. That's a shame. Go bitch at those educational software makers to port to Mac OS X. :D

What would actually happen if they were given $1B is they would buy essentially NO software and offset the state budget defecit caused by bad energy policies (which also wiped out 40 years of power company assets). They would pay salaries with it.

Come to think of it they should get CASH not ANY software at all. M$ or Apple or otherwise.

Either they are illegal monopolists or not, make up your mind. The judge conclusively determined YES.

Rocketman

[MacCoaster]

Originally posted by Rocketman
What would actually happen if they were given $1B is they would buy essentially NO software and offset the state budget defecit caused by bad energy policies (which also wiped out 40 years of power company assets). They would pay salaries with it.
Unfortunately, there are "budgets" set aside for x and y. Sometimes you can't just transfer those "budgets" so those monies would likely stick to software and hardware upgrades, Microsoft or not.

I have to agree with you, though, it'd be better the other way. But can we change that?

[Chad4Mac]

What this article fails to identify is that half of the two-thirds difference can be spend on Microsoft products for Windows or for "Apple Computers Inc's Macontosh operating systems" as well. The cash is not unique to only Windows-based OS's.

-- Adapted from the Wall Street Journal --

Whether this means anything in Apple's favor is particularly vague, and defeats the purpose of "punishment" on Microsoft's side. However, there are similar cases going on in many US cities that might end up like California's ruling. In the end, Micro might be hit somewhat hard...

Chad4Mac

[Billy_ca]

Schools that may have purchased Apple hardware and software will now use their vouchers to get Microsoft stuff instead...thereby decreasing Apple's market share in the education market and increasing Microsoft's.

The voucher's cost Microsoft virtually nothing but help in increasing their marketshare...

...what a stupid, stupid Judge.

Why do none of them really want to punish Microsoft for breaking the law?

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by MacCoaster


I have to agree with you, though, it'd be better the other way. But can we change that?

Every person who is a buyer of M$ OS's since 1995 is an affected person and has standing to set forth terms. If enough people set the same terms it is binding on the judge. How's that for a reason to exploit the power of the internet? I can assure you M$ fears the possibility of THAT happening severely.

They would love nothing more than to settle all claims for a few vouchers locking even more people into future upgrade paths and product selection inertia!!!

Rocketman

[alset]

Originally posted by Billy_ca
...what a stupid, stupid Judge.

Why do none of them really want to punish Microsoft for breaking the law?

Take a look at the people who elect judges. Does the general public look like a bright bunch to you? This is what our system produces. Sh** in, sh** out.

Dan

[Dr Zaius]

I heard that the vouchers were only going to end up being around $5-$30 in value. (Probably one voucher per product).

How many MS products are that cheap???????

So ultimately they will be getting revenue every time someone "cashes in" one of their vouchers.

[gbojim]

Originally posted by Billy_ca

...what a stupid, stupid Judge.

Why do none of them really want to punish Microsoft for breaking the law?

From what I have seen, only the lawyers from MS and the plaintiffs have so far agreed on anything. The judge has not looked at it yet.

If this judge takes the same view as the previous similar case, the settlement will not be accepted and will likely go to trial.

[ELYXR]

Endnote v6 was a real let down... Endnote v6 would work on Mac OSX 10.1.5 only!

Not 10.1.3, not 10.2, not 9.0 - 9.2 either ... it was pure cocoa and purely pathetic on their parts. :rolleyes: They probably fixed it by now... but there was a period of months after it was released that it didn't work with any brand-new mac.

That product is the standard in educational circles... well, was.

[rainman::|:|]

i think there should be a sarcastic "surprise surprise" category of news for posts like these :D

pnw

[chewbaccapits]

Apple is BALLS....

[skotmiller]

I object too, Where do I sign up?

[Sedulous]

Actually, Endnote 6 does work in 10.2 but you need to download a patch. It works fine after that. Same goes for lots of newly OS X programs. Canvas doesn't print without a patch either.

[alset]

Originally posted by skotmiller
I object too, Where do I sign up?

Y'know, I would love to be involved in this movement from the ground floor, but I'm just not up to the task of writing a petition right now. School and such has left me too burned out to work on anything representing a group. However, if anyone else wants to get us started:

http://petitiononline.com/

I feel confident that those who frequent this site will sign without hesitation.

Dan

[Java]

Originally posted by Billy_ca

...what a stupid, stupid Judge.

Why do none of them really want to punish Microsoft for breaking the law?

Way to go Apple for stepping in and going head to head with Big Brother (ok, so the companies have changed since '84).

I remember hearing someone say, "it is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog".

Can I raise my Apple pirate flag?:p

[barkmonster]

This is just wrong. How many companies other than microsoft could get away with a voucher system ?

NONE i'm guessing.

Even if it's "this voucher entitles the bearer to 1 copy of MS Office" or something along those lines instead of them being the MS equivelent of money off vouchers, they're still wrong. Money is what people need not more microsoft software. By their own admission they make over 80% of their profit from windows and office, this makes those vouchers worth a lot less, infact I'd say they're worthless to start with. How much is going to cost MS to actually produce the applications in the first place ? A lot less than the shelf price.

The judge is clearly a moron.

[smegdude]

what the court should have done to really punish m$ is let the schools only buy apple or other companies products which don't use m$ programs, if done this way then m$ is loosing out and the monopoly is getting less powerfull.
It creates a more competitive market and benifits the companies who were damaged by m$. Then hopefully in the future m$ will think before they try to break the law again.

[Le Big Mac]

Originally posted by barkmonster
This is just wrong. How many companies other than microsoft could get away with a voucher system ?

NONE i'm guessing.


Vouchers are often used in consumer class actions. It's offensive, but often done. Companies give discounts off of future purchases. They can tout a big settlement number, which helps justify the lawyers' fees, and end up paying very little on the vouchers. What's more, the vouchers usually end up increasing sales, because the discount is small relative to the overall price.

Here, at least, the vouchers can be used for non MS products, which is a vast improvement. If one buys an MS product, it costs MS almost nothing. But if one buys another company's software, then MS has to pay the full price.

This proposal, while problematic, is far better than the one in Maryland that would donate a bunch of MS software to schools.

[jettredmont]

Like most class-action suits, the result is near meaningless to the victims and ends up helping the guilty.

Personally, I've overpaid for MS software far more than $29 in the past five years (and much more than that if you go back 10-15 years...) Every single OS purchase since 1995 has been $75+ of pure profit to Microsoft, and every copy of Office sold since 1997 has given MS $300 or more of pure profit. While companies are certainly entitled to profit, a monopoly making 567% markup profit on their products (85% of the sale is profit) is unprecedented. I figure I've got at least $920 in MS overpayments (Win 95=$40, Win 98$40, Win 98SE=$40, Win 2k=$100, Win XP=$100, Office 95=$300, Office 2k=$300) just on my main computer (plus Me bundled on a laptop), though I doubt I'd ever get anywhere near that back from Microsoft.

Well, with four years to use the voucher, I'll at least have time to put my voucher(s) towards a shiny new Mac.

[yzedf]

Originally posted by smegdude
what the court should have done to really punish m$ is let the schools only buy apple or other companies products which don't use m$ programs, if done this way then m$ is loosing out and the monopoly is getting less powerfull.
It creates a more competitive market and benifits the companies who were damaged by m$. Then hopefully in the future m$ will think before they try to break the law again.

2 of the best programs for Mac OS X are MS products:

Office v.X and IE

Sorry guys, but we still need MS. Office is the standard. OO or StarOffice will not change that. IE might get replaced by Safari, but not yet (functionality wise).

For Apple to compete, the need a true XML based office suite that is fully compatible with other paltforms (win, *nix, *bsd etx) that works as well as iPhoto. If that happens, Apple is in the money again. If not, they stay on the fringes trying to survive on the crumbs of the industry.

I say XML because MS Office is headed towards that direction, although who know how XML# or whatever they use will work...

[arogge]

Originally posted by yzedf


2 of the best programs for Mac OS X are MS products:

Office v.X and IE

Sorry guys, but we still need MS. Office is the standard. OO or StarOffice will not change that. IE might get replaced by Safari, but not yet (functionality wise).


Microsoft Office files can be incompatible between platforms - the most recent example I heard of was an M$ Word document between Windows 2000/Office XP and Windows XP/Office XP. This is not a standard by any means, when M$ Office files from different Windows versions fail to open on the same version of Office. Microsoft IE is junk compared to Mozilla and Opera. When I first started OS X, my first deletion was of all Microsoft software. My Apple computer is a Microsoft-free zone, and I intend to keep it that way. The real Office standard is promoted by Sun and OpenOffice.org, not Microsoft. I use StarOffice, OpenOffice.org, KOffice, AppleWorks, and various text editors. If I am given an M$ Office document that won't open, I send it back and tell the Induhvidual which sent it that the file is corrupt. If the file does open through conversion, I still send back a complaint and push for the use of non-Microsoft formats. We have to be firm when dealing with the problem of Microsoft files being accepted as standard. When Apple users have to spend $500 for M$ Office or $370 per individual component for the purpose of compatibility with the Microsoft camp, I see this as an extortion scheme. Microsoft will continue to charge high prices because its marketers know that most people see no way to escape Microsoft's upgrade wagon and fear threats of being obsolete and incompatible with the Microsoft camp.

[MacKid]

Originally posted by smegdude
what the court should have done to really punish m$ is let the schools only buy apple or other companies products which don't use m$ programs, if done this way then m$ is loosing out and the monopoly is getting less powerfull.
It creates a more competitive market and benifits the companies who were damaged by m$. Then hopefully in the future m$ will think before they try to break the law again.

Although a nice piece of wishful thinking, it would be quite strange, unjust, and almost seem biased for such a thing to happen. I mean, a judge can't just say "BLAH BLAH BLAH, I HEREBY SENTENCE YOU TO 20 YEAR SOFTWARE SUSPENSION WITHIN THE EDUCATION MARKET BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!!!" I just don't think it works like that.
:( ;)

[ELYXR]

Originally posted by yzedf


2 of the best programs for Mac OS X are MS products:

Office v.X and IE

Sorry guys, but we still need MS. Office is the standard. OO or StarOffice will not change that. IE might get replaced by Safari, but not yet (functionality wise).

For Apple to compete, the need a true XML based office suite that is fully compatible with other paltforms (win, *nix, *bsd etx) that works as well as iPhoto. If that happens, Apple is in the money again. If not, they stay on the fringes trying to survive on the crumbs of the industry.

I say XML because MS Office is headed towards that direction, although who know how XML# or whatever they use will work...

Can you imagine what life is like at the Mac Business Unit in Redmond? These guys have to love Mac's... but must feel crazed by the political *********. They probably just want to make a great productivity suite, and all Microsoft corporate sees is $$.

Developers have to love what they're doing or it sucks worse than being a janitor, trust me. ;)

[XxflipperxX]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by barkmonster
[B]This is just wrong. How many companies other than microsoft could get away with a voucher system ?

NONE i'm guessing.

H & R Block?