iLife - Last Minute Reconsideration?

[MacRumors]

ThinkSecret reports (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/freeiapps.html) that the final release of iLife -- with downloadable iMovie 3 and iPhoto 2 -- may have been a last minute departure from the original plan.



Think Secret has been told by a number of sources within Apple and outside the company that it was only after receiving negative e-mail and reading online message board traffic critical of Apple's decision to charge for brand new versions of iPhoto 2, iMovie 3, iDVD 3, and the already-available iTunes 3, that Jobs decided to distribute iPhoto and iMovie at no charge.

[Centris 650]

Wow. I guess the squeaky wheel does get the oil!

After MWNY I really don't think it would have been wise for Apple to charge for yet another free service.

[AssassinOfGates]

Im glad that Apple did change their mind. It would be a shame to lose the free iApps, as that is one of Apple's major selling points - how everything just works in the digital hub.

[JBracy]

Sounds like ThinkSecret is trying to save their ***. As they indicated in their predictions that iApps would be only be availiable as a charged for bundle, and gave it a provbability rating of 100%.

[dricci]

Originally posted by JBracy
Sounds like ThinkSecret is trying to save their ***. As they indicated in their predictions that iApps would be only be availiable as a charged for bundle, and gave it a provbability rating of 100%.

I doubt they're making it up, as I'm sure many people have seen that clip from the draft of the iLife guide.

Anyway, I'm glad Apple is listening to what people are saying online. *cough* consumer iTower please *cough* :cool:

[Max72118]

I think the apps are well worth $50 and the company is cutting a good potential revenue stream by giving it away. Apple needs to grow software revenue; it can't take market share from M$ as a hardware company.

[MikeUnicode]

It's easier to convince people to switch to mac,
when it comes loaded with these FREE apps.
Remember, most people has a Windows software set that will not run on a mac, unless they BUY Virtual PC.

Make them pay for these APPs and suddenly they has much less reason to switch!

It's bad enough they have to buy a copy of MS Office for 200 bucks.

Apple should load AppleWorks on ALL it's machines.

Really, in a war you've got to play to WIN.

( Good job with Safari. )

[Blackcat]

I just can't believe that. Marketing decisions are not based on rumor site ramblings (if they were we'd have $500 PowerMacs, G3 Cubes and an Apple PDA).

No, this is incorrect sources covering themselves.

[jayscheuerle]

It's a shame Steve and co. didn't get as much insight concerning .Mac.

My service provider, AT&T Worldnet, gives me an online calendar(with email alerts), online address book, webmail, 5 email accounts and 10MB for my website as part of my $16.95/month (150 hrs) plan. Everything works.

I know that sounds like an advertisement, but what is Apple giving me for $100 more? I'd bet that the discount price of $50 (still overpriced in my book) is going to become the standard price next year.

At least they're learning..... - j

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by MikeUnicode
It's easier to convince people to switch to mac,
when it comes loaded with these FREE apps.


These apps are free when you switch (buy a new Mac)....

[jamilecrire]

It's a shame Steve and co. didn't get as much insight concerning .Mac.

My service provider, AT&T Worldnet, gives me an online calendar(with email alerts), online address book, webmail, 5 email accounts and 10MB for my website as part of my $16.95/month (150 hrs) plan. Everything works.

I know that sounds like an advertisement, but what is Apple giving me for $100 more? I'd bet that the discount price of $50 (still overpriced in my book) is going to become the standard price next year.

At least they're learning..... - j

100MB is different than 10MB plus it integrates with your OS. Not to mention mac.com is a cool address.

I do however agree $100 is too much but $50 isn't bad.

[JBracy]

Originally posted by Blackcat
I just can't believe that. Marketing decisions are not based on rumor site ramblings (if they were we'd have $500 PowerMacs, G3 Cubes and an Apple PDA).

No, this is incorrect sources covering themselves.

Yep, TS lost a little credability when they make statments like:

"Except for percentages between zero and 100 percent, Think Secret doesn't make predictions. What we report is based on actual source material, and our sources are checked and re-checked." (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/mwsf03apple.html)

and then come out with this:

100% - iAPP UPDATES...BUT FOR A FEE
75% - APPLE-BRANDED BROWSER
0% - POWERBOOK/iBOOK RE-VAMP/SPEED BUMPS

[gotohamish]

I've never got to grips with this issue - iMovie and iDVD have never been free downloads - you either had to buy the upgrades from the Apple Store or buy a new Mac to get them.

[iJon]

Originally posted by MikeUnicode
It's easier to convince people to switch to mac,
when it comes loaded with these FREE apps.
Remember, most people has a Windows software set that will not run on a mac, unless they BUY Virtual PC.

Make them pay for these APPs and suddenly they has much less reason to switch!

It's bad enough they have to buy a copy of MS Office for 200 bucks.

Apple should load AppleWorks on ALL it's machines.

Really, in a war you've got to play to WIN.

( Good job with Safari. )
People would get these apps free. They will just charge for an upgrade for other customers. the new macs would already be preloaded with all of them. its like idvd 2 in the past. it costs to upgrade to it, but all the new macs with superdrives came with it. Personally I think 49 bucks is chump change for all these beautiful apps. most apps that work half as good as apple's usually cost at least 50 dollars retail. These are the 4 best apps that Apple makes and to get them all for 50 dollars is nothing in my opinion. I would happily pay that much for those apps and I think everyone else here would too.

iJon

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by jamilecrire


100MB is different than 10MB...

Yes, if you're one of the 15% of the population that has broadband. Otherwise, the access rate is prohibitive and much slower/inconvenient than writing to a CD or Zip disk..

If I need to put a small file somewhere so that I can access it when I get home, I just email it to myself..

I uploaded my site once with tons of room to spare. 100MB of webspace? Seriously!

Integrated with the OS? I don't know.. I click on my "calendar" bookmark (in Safari ;) ) and I'm there. No additional apps to open or anything. Sounds pretty integrated to me...

Anyway, I've strayed off topic (again!).... Obviously I didn't think .Mac was a good deal (and I do miss the address)....

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by iJon

People would get these apps free. They will just charge for an upgrade for other customers. the new macs would already be preloaded with all of them. its like idvd 2 in the past. it costs to upgrade to it, but all the new macs with superdrives came with it. Personally I think 49 bucks is chump change for all these beautiful apps. most apps that work half as good as apple's usually cost at least 50 dollars retail. These are the 4 best apps that Apple makes and to get them all for 50 dollars is nothing in my opinion. I would happily pay that much for those apps and I think everyone else here would too.

iJon

Jon, I couldn't and didn't put it better myself! :D

[clonenode]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
It's a shame Steve and co. didn't get as much insight concerning .Mac.

My service provider, AT&T Worldnet, gives me an online calendar(with email alerts), online address book, webmail, 5 email accounts and 10MB for my website as part of my $16.95/month (150 hrs) plan. Everything works.

I know that sounds like an advertisement, but what is Apple giving me for $100 more? I'd bet that the discount price of $50 (still overpriced in my book) is going to become the standard price next year.

At least they're learning..... - j

.mac is QUITE a value. Realize what you get for $99.95:

- a cool "your name@mac.com" email address... web mail available any time, any where

- the 100MB iDisk; on-line storage that mounts on your desktop like a regular disk. Not need to FTP files, just drag and drop photos, movies and web sites

- Back-up: software to back-up your Mac - to your iDisk or CD-R

- Virex: an industry standard virus protection software

- .mac members only support forums

AND the biggest thing of all: INTEGRATION with the Mac OS. Use iSync to shareyour iCal calendars on the web wth anyone you want. Post a photo album directly out of iPhoto. Build a website with easy to use on-line tools. Soon you will also be able to put your Address Book on-line too, for access from any computer any where.

Free services from your ISP pale in comparison.

[Sol]

That Apple made a last-minute change is something that I suspected while watching Steve Jobs' keynote. First of all he did mention that he was reading through some of the rumour sites in the days before the expo so he would have come across the big hoo-ha over the iApp upgrades. Second, in the way he announced what will be free and will be charged for he gave me the impression that he was a little nervous, even unsure of himself. Maybe experience told him to expect the worst from the audience (and Mac users everywhere). Finally, if the iPhoto and iMovie updates were going to be free downloads then why were they not available on the day?

Of course the truth about this may never be known but I will not lose any sleep over it. After all OS X users get three of the best multimedia apps for free and this may help entice more users to switch. Personally I think the wrong decision was made because the iMovie & iDVD updates seem good enough to pay for (iPhoto's update does not differ that much from the current version so a free download would have been appropriate for that one). Maybe Final Cut Express complicated matters a little because Apple would rather sell that than iMovie.

Anyway, it was a shame that iTunes did not get an equally impressive update as I was really looking forward to re-ripping my CDs into MP4s. If iPods get an update to play MP4 audio & video files I will buy one in 2003 (are you reading Steve?) and with Intel's intention to make portable media players I am sure that Apple will do their best to steal their thunder.

By the way, is it just me or was the iPhoto demonstration with the photo of the kid with freckles a bit mean? Steve Jobs demonstrated how with the new healing brush you could delete scratches, blemishes and even freckles from pictures of your kids. Excuse me but if kids are not entitled to have scratches, blemishes and freckles then who is? Forget the healing brush and love your kids for the way they are, not what you wish they were.

[pianojoe]

Originally posted by gotohamish
I've never got to grips with this issue - iMovie and iDVD have never been free downloads - you either had to buy the upgrades from the Apple Store or buy a new Mac to get them.

Yippiiieh! At last somebody noticed. Thank you!

[medea]

Um, I thought it was obvious from the begining that both iMovie3 and iPhoto2 would be free downloads already, this isnt last minute its been that way from the get go. The only app your actually paying for is iDvd but you get everything else on CD that way.

[pianojoe]

[i] Finally, if the iPhoto and iMovie updates were going to be free downloads then why were they not available on the day?

[/B]

Because they require at least 10.2.4 which isn't fit for release yet. BTW, iMovie being a free download is something new. Before, you had to pay for the software, or buy a new Mac.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by clonenode


.mac is QUITE a value. Realize what you get for $99.95:

&

Free services from your ISP pale in comparison.

I did realize (that's why I dropped it ).;)

&

Not enough to justifying spending an additional $100 (or even $50, though $25 might have swayed me ). Value is in the eye of the beholder and is often determined by how much extra money you have to play with. I guess I just have a lot better things to do with $50! :D

[greenaa]

i already downloaded itunes3 and it works with osx.1.... what about iphoto2 and imovie3? could someone who has already used the developer's preview confirm whether these will work with osx.1 or only jaguar?

thanks

aaron

[giovanni]

I thought the digital life concept might be one of the very few competitive advantages left for Apple, in other words, one of the few selling points. Possibly the only selling point for "switchers".

OS X may be cool, beautiful, crash free (not sure at all about this one though, my NT PC does not crash any more than my mac, probably less - but that is my experience ..). Yet if there are no good or very good apps to run, it is just another piece of useless code.
On the hardware side, lets not even talk about competitive advantage.

So, I wonder, would Apple shoot itself in the foot was it to charge for such apps ???

[Bear]

Originally posted by greenaa
i already downloaded itunes3 and it works with osx.1.... what about iphoto2 and imovie3? could someone who has already used the developer's preview confirm whether these will work with osx.1 or only jaguar?

thanks

aaron

iTunes 3 is 10.1 compatible since it was released before 10.2 was available.

[iAlan]

I am looking forward to my free downloads of the iApps. It wouldn't surprise me if Apple were concidering charging forhte iApps. I am sure they have thought about (in the past too) and may have 'leaked' the idea to see how it would play out.

Good decision not to charge, as the iApps are a key selling point for 'Switchers'

What I want to know is, why are the DVD SP users being left behind? It would be great if you could incorporate the iDVD themes into DVD SP. I really liked the 'picure in picture' and 'movie curtain' themes Steve demo'd.

[TheInevitable]

I think that .mac would have a greater value if they included an ISP. I would pay $240 a year (thats $20 per month payed monthly for a year) for that, especially since its money I got to spend anyway, why not spend it with Apple.

[greenaa]

reply to BEAR -

so are you saying that iphoto2/imovie3 are definitely not compatible with osx.1? can anyone else give feedback on this?

thanks

aaron

[terevos]

Hey guys.. umm.. this doesn't seem like news to me. Macslash had reported this the day of the keynote.

"And, of course, the price. This new suite of iMedia iApps, now called iLife will retail at $49 and will be available on Saturday January 25. It will bundled with all new Macs. In addition, you can download iTunes 3, iPhoto 2 and iMovie 3 for free."

So I don't see why this is a rumor, nor why people think this is something new. This was reported since their initial announcement of the iLife product line.

[Tue12]

You guys are WAY WAY WAY WRONG about iMovie.

iMovie 2 WAS FREE for early adopters of OSX. It was available for download when 10.0.0 was released. I know. I downloaded a copy. :)

Should Apple charge for the iApps. Yup, I'm all for it, once they stop price gauging their customers for obsolete hardware -ie, the entire hardware lineup*.

*Plz don't argue me on this.

[Billicus]

Originally posted by greenaa
reply to BEAR -

so are you saying that iphoto2/imovie3 are definitely not compatible with osx.1? can anyone else give feedback on this?

thanks

aaron

YES! 10.2 is the future, so get off the bandwagon of 10.1 and joing the future.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Billicus


YES! 10.2 is the future, so get off the bandwagon of 10.1 and joing the future.

As soon as Apple releases a version of 10.2 that doesn't have a tendency to crash FCP I'll consider switching from 10.1.


Lethal

[h'biki]

FCP 3.0.4 under 10.2.3 is probably the most stable version fo FCP I've used. And I've been using it since 1.0. Beats FCP under 10.1 too.

10.2 is still beta, as far as I'm concerned, but its very good beta. 10.1 wasn't.

All we need now is DVDSP2 based on Spruce (with timeline editing) and I'll be a happy little digital media guy.

[bretm]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


I did realize (that's why I dropped it ).;)

&

Not enough to justifying spending an additional $100 (or even $50, though $25 might have swayed me ). Value is in the eye of the beholder and is often determined by how much extra money you have to play with. I guess I just have a lot better things to do with $50! :D

Didn't you say you're paying 16.95 a month for your ISP? They can be had for cheaper than that. Generally $10 a month. So say that extra $7 a month is basically supporting the extra services you're gettng. Multiply that by 12 months and you're paying $84 a year for something that isn't integrated into the OS, has 1/10th the space, doesn't integrate into any of your apps, doesn't sync or backup your important data, etc.

And 100mb of web space is actually pretty small these days with a few photos to share. When you start placing 100k photo images on the web with thumbnails, maybe some qt movies, etc. you can fill a site pretty quick with a couple vacations and a video or two.

[drastik]

here is something interesting aout iLife. Now, if I go and buy a superdrive (A04, the one apple uses) and slap it into my old sawtooth tower, I can use iDVD. Previously you had to have a superdrive that came installed to qualify to get the program.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
It's a shame Steve and co. didn't get as much insight concerning .Mac.

My service provider, AT&T Worldnet, gives me an online calendar(with email alerts), online address book, webmail, 5 email accounts and 10MB for my website as part of my $16.95/month (150 hrs) plan. Everything works.

I know that sounds like an advertisement, but what is Apple giving me for $100 more? I'd bet that the discount price of $50 (still overpriced in my book) is going to become the standard price next year.

At least they're learning..... - j

Well, they give you iDisk. Keep in mind that the largest player in that market, XDrive, charges $5/month for 100MB storage. So there's $60 of value right there that .Mac is providing you.

[JBracy]

From the iLife pre-Order page:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?productLearnMore=M9063Z/A

System Requirements
Macintosh computer with PowerPC G3 or G4 processor.
256MB of physical RAM.
Mac OS X v10.1.5 or later (Mac OS X v10.2.2 or later recommended).
2GB disk space required to install iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD (Apple SuperDrive required for iDVD) or 250MB disk space to install iTunes, iPhoto, and iMovie only.

Note 2 items:
1) OSX 10.1.5
2) Apple SuperDrive required for iDVD

[Floop]

I really want iMovie 3, iDVD 3, and to a lesser extent, iPhoto 2 and iTunes 3.

If Apple had made me pay $50 to get them, I would have been annoyed.

However, they are giving iMovie 3, iPhoto 2 and iTunes 3 away for free.

They are charging $50 for iDVD 3 - because the size of it necessitates it to be provided on CDs.

I will pay $50 to get iDVD 3.

Do you see what I'm saying here? I'm still going to pay $50, and I'm going to end up with exactly the same software, but I don't feel ripped off, as mentally I got three software items free, and I paid a reasonable amount for the fourth.

This is very clever on Apple's part. I don't feel ripped off, instead I feel like I'm getting a good deal. It's a way better strategy than telling everyone they have to pay, if they want to use the iApps. Cunning as hell!


Floop

[drastik]

Originally posted by JBracy

2) Apple SuperDrive required for iDVD

Yes, but the apple superdrive is the Pioneer A04 (new ones may be A05). You can buy these seperately and install them yourself.

[JBracy]

Originally posted by drastik


Yes, but the apple superdrive is the Pioneer A04 (new ones may be A05). You can buy these seperately and install them yourself.

Yes it is the same mechanism. However, it has different firmware which iDVD checks on launch. If it doesn't see the Apple FirmWare then it quits with a message that it can't find the correct hardware. At least that's what happens with the current iDVD. Maybe they've changed it with version 3, but no one outside of Apple will know until it ships.

[gbojim]

For what it's worth I was talking to my Apple rep this morning, and having seen this thread before hand, I asked her what was up with packaging and charging for iLife.

She said that some info that was to be announced at the keynote was leaked ahead of time, misinterpreted and then reported incorrectly. It was always intended that the only iApp that would be paid for was iDVD. The other iApps would be free and downloadable as they have been in the past. But Apple is planning to make a big marketing push with "iLife", so all of the iApps get bundled together on CD and labeled iLife so there would be something physical associated with it. From what she told me, this decision was made months ago.

[jayscheuerle]

Are you guys hooked up with broadband? Even 10MB of space tests my patience on a dial-up.

I like your argument about my spending an extra $7/mon compared to the cheapie ISPs, bretm. I've always been under the impression that these are less reliable and more likely to fold than a big player, but of course if .Mac carries your mail, you won't need to worry about address changes... The fact that .Mac charged for additional email addresses (for my family) also added to the cost... I'm not impressed with the integration yet, though I did use my iDisk every once in a while before I dropped the service. For transferring files, one of those usb keychain foibles with 128megs would be the best trick... I've never had to worry about Virus's before & I've taken care of my own back-ups for years...

What reliable $10/mon ISPs do you know of? If Apple keeps the $50 price or adds features that I truly consider valuable, maybe I'd go that route and pocket the extra $34 for a few pints. My old .mac email address is still mine (for life), right? :)

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by JBracy


Yes it is the same mechanism. However, it has different firmware which iDVD checks on launch. If it doesn't see the Apple FirmWare then it quits with a message that it can't find the correct hardware. At least that's what happens with the current iDVD. Maybe they've changed it with version 3, but no one outside of Apple will know until it ships.

I'm not sure of the exact legal reasoning, but DVD burning software requires some sort of encoding liscense that is built into the cost of machines with the Superdrive. If you buy 3rd party DVD writing software, the cost is built in. If Apple gave away iDVD, there would be no accounting for this fee.

- At least this is something like I remember reading once!

[Hmm]

Don't forget that iMovie 3 will be OS X only, unlike iMovie 2. iPhoto has always been OS X only, of course.

By making these attractive and free downloads, Apple not only may inspire Windows users to switch to the Mac, it may inspire OS 9 holdouts to switch to X, something also in the best interests of Apple.

[gopher]

Originally posted by clonenode


.mac is QUITE a value. Realize what you get for $99.95:

- a cool "your name@mac.com" email address... web mail available any time, any where

Well yes, but it doesn't let you host your own domain. I can get one that does that for $60 a year


- the 100MB iDisk; on-line storage that mounts on your desktop like a regular disk. Not need to FTP files, just drag and drop photos, movies and web sites

Nice to have integration with Finder, but that same $60 a year provider supports FTP, PHP, SQL, CGI-BIN.


- Back-up: software to back-up your Mac - to your iDisk or CD-R

CD-R is built-in to the Finder. To iDisk? Only if you have broadband. And who has only 100 MB of data to backup anymore? Now if it worked to an external hard disk that would be a value


- Virex: an industry standard virus protection software

When was the last time your Mac had a virus? Since I've worked and owned Macs since 1989 I haven't seen a single one!


- .mac members only support forums

Support? When I write to complain that I didn't get the ability to use free photos because I don't trust using my credit card online to signup for one-click, all I get is a reply, sorry, but you must use one-click to get free photos. Some free photos! First you have to use a credit card, secondly you need to use it through the web which isn't secure, and the people you are purchasing it through you can't speak to in order to verify the order goes through correctly the first time, and you have to hope the one-click isn't accidently overdone so you aren't accidently overcharged. Very nice support.


AND the biggest thing of all: INTEGRATION with the Mac OS. Use iSync to shareyour iCal calendars on the web wth anyone you want. Post a photo album directly out of iPhoto. Build a website with easy to use on-line tools. Soon you will also be able to put your Address Book on-line too, for access from any computer any where.
For some that may be worth the remaining $40. I'm using my iPod to store my addressbook and calendar. And so far, I can't just log in via a web browser to view my calendar, and just get webmail. Oh and webmail has been down 20% of the past two weeks. Plus webmail does not let me set my own reply-to address separate of my .Mac address. The photo on the website feature only works on certain web browsers. Many people still use Netscape 4.7.


Free services from your ISP pale in comparison.

For now the $50 I spent the first year is fine. But I don't think I'll spend $100 next year unless it is seriously boosted to have better online performance.

[Blackcat]

Originally posted by Tue12
You guys are WAY WAY WAY WRONG about iMovie.

iMovie 2 WAS FREE for early adopters of OSX. It was available for download when 10.0.0 was released. I know. I downloaded a copy. :)


Not quite...

iMovie2 was released for 9.0 as a $49 upgrade/purchase quite a while before 10.0 was released. Once MacOS X became "non beta" (in Apples opinion) they included it for X.

I was a bit miffed, but these things happen!

As for charging for iApps, the $49 seems okay, especially as iDVD costs Apple money for the MPEG2 encoder.

[rugby]

Originally posted by h'biki
10.2 is still beta, as far as I'm concerned, but its very good beta. 10.1 wasn't.


I think some people have certain phrases stuck in their heads they can't get rid of. Repeat after me, "OS X isn't beta anymore". It feels good, trust me.:rolleyes:

[Blackcat]

Originally posted by JBracy


Yes it is the same mechanism. However, it has different firmware which iDVD checks on launch. If it doesn't see the Apple FirmWare then it quits with a message that it can't find the correct hardware. At least that's what happens with the current iDVD. Maybe they've changed it with version 3, but no one outside of Apple will know until it ships.

I know people who've added an AO3 or AO4 internally and it just works with iDVD, but it refuses with external drives regardless of model.

Now anybody can buy iDVD it really ought to work on externals too. It's not like built-in DVD-R is a selling point now like it was in 2001.

[JBracy]

Originally posted by Blackcat


I know people who've added an AO3 or AO4 internally and it just works with iDVD, but it refuses with external drives regardless of model.

Now anybody can buy iDVD it really ought to work on externals too. It's not like built-in DVD-R is a selling point now like it was in 2001.

I know people who have bought internal A03/A04's on the advise of forums like this saying it will work and it doesn't.

[bdkennedy1]

I sent them an e-mail a couple days before MWSF and told them I was lucky I was even able to afford a Mac and that it seemed all I was doing last year was forking out money to keep upgrading everything (Jaguar, .Mac). I told them if they start charging for the iApps, I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to keep using my Mac, since the iApps were made to be part of the OS and one of the reasons I switched.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by JBracy
From the iLife pre-Order page:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?productLearnMore=M9063Z/A

System Requirements
Macintosh computer with PowerPC G3 or G4 processor.
256MB of physical RAM.
Mac OS X v10.1.5 or later (Mac OS X v10.2.2 or later recommended).
2GB disk space required to install iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD (Apple SuperDrive required for iDVD) or 250MB disk space to install iTunes, iPhoto, and iMovie only.

Note 2 items:
1) OSX 10.1.5
2) Apple SuperDrive required for iDVD

Hmm, I checked the iLife info under "software" and didn't see the system info. I didn't even think about looking at it under the "store." Thanx for clearing it up. :)


Lethal

[soosy]

Originally posted by Hmm
Don't forget that iMovie 3 will be OS X only, unlike iMovie 2. iPhoto has always been OS X only, of course.

By making these attractive and free downloads, Apple not only may inspire Windows users to switch to the Mac, it may inspire OS 9 holdouts to switch to X, something also in the best interests of Apple.

Excellent Point!

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Max72118
I think the apps are well worth $50 and the company is cutting a good potential revenue stream by giving it away. Apple needs to grow software revenue; it can't take market share from M$ as a hardware company.

I agree. Personally, I'll be upgrading to iDVD/iLife suite. But then, I'm not "Joe SixPack" either ...

As for Apple shooting itself in the foot by not keeping these free ... I haven't heard any rumors that the entire iLife suite was ever intended to not be included on all new Macs. By which I mean, never did Apple intend to pull iLife as a reason to buy a new Mac. It's just you freeloaders ( :) ) who keep buying/downloading new software to work with your three-year-old iMacs that Apple wants to get a little money from ...

I suspect that Apple will slowly migrate more value into the "iLife only" side of things, although perhaps keeping the existing iPhoto/iMovie/iTunes functionality as a free download. Really, though, if Apple isn't making money off a particular bit of software, that bit of software won't be receiving as much further development as those that make money. I suspect that we will see new iApps that add great new functionality and perhaps even slightly overlap the free iApps, but which can only be found in the iLife CD/DVD pack.

I like free stuff as much as the next guy. But I also like the results of voting for the good stuff with my wallet where possible.

[soosy]

Originally posted by Floop
I really want iMovie 3, iDVD 3, and to a lesser extent, iPhoto 2 and iTunes 3.

If Apple had made me pay $50 to get them, I would have been annoyed.

However, they are giving iMovie 3, iPhoto 2 and iTunes 3 away for free.

They are charging $50 for iDVD 3 - because the size of it necessitates it to be provided on CDs.

I will pay $50 to get iDVD 3.

Do you see what I'm saying here? I'm still going to pay $50, and I'm going to end up with exactly the same software, but I don't feel ripped off, as mentally I got three software items free, and I paid a reasonable amount for the fourth.

This is very clever on Apple's part. I don't feel ripped off, instead I feel like I'm getting a good deal. It's a way better strategy than telling everyone they have to pay, if they want to use the iApps. Cunning as hell!

Floop

Good point... but only people with Superdrives will need to buy iDVD so that will perhaps reduce # of copies sold. I wish you could get an Apple Superdrive w/o having to buy a new machine. I may attempt to buy a Pioneer internal one if reports look good after iLife is released. I believe www.xlr8yourmac.com keeps a database of superdrive configurations known to work.

Still, I think your point stands well... even concerning people who won't buy iLife or even download any of the free programs. It would leave a bad taste of "nickel and dime-ing" even if they had no interest in the programs.

I was very very pleased with this keynote. I'm a longtime Apple user but I had been feeling down about Apple lately. They really won me back with their announcements. Charging for iPhoto and iMovie could have easily marred that. Not worth it, concerning Apple's position right now, imo.

Go Apple!

[achmafooma]

Originally posted by gopher
First you have to use a credit card, secondly you need to use it through the web which isn't secure

I always wondered how data sent over the internet - which isn't childs play to intercept anyway - encrypted at 64 or 128 bit encryption could ever be considered insecure.

It's more dangerous to use your credit card in a restaurant - where an enterprising waiter/waitress could swipe it through their own reader or write the info down - or even in a grocery store where somebody with good vision and memory (or a decent camera) could capture your name, number, and expiration date.

Neither of those require the insane kind of computer crunch time it would take to intercept and decrypt your credit card information from an online transaction. Those internet horror stories you hear almost all involve retailers who screwed up and didn't secure their database or people who sent their info to fraudulant companies (ie. NOT APPLE).

The insecure database can happen with any company, e-tailer or not, and people should always research companies they're buying from to make sure they're not frauds. Believe me, using your credit card online with the big-name companies is probably significantly safer than using it in public anywhere.

[soosy]

Originally posted by Max72118
I think the apps are well worth $50 and the company is cutting a good potential revenue stream by giving it away. Apple needs to grow software revenue; it can't take market share from M$ as a hardware company.

I disagree. They can make money by selling new products like Keynote. But charging for formerly free apps can sometimes generate more ill will than new revenue and will ultimately sacrifice loyalty and future hardware sales. With this upgrade anyway, I think it was wise to keep them free. And rather brilliant, as another poster pointed out, that many will pay anyway to get them on CD but will be happy that they are available free.

I also disagree that Apple needs software revenue to take market share. Hardware grows market share not software. :) The iApps are there to get you to buy a relatively expensive piece of Apple hardware.

[blackpeter]

I agree with most here. Part of the value of a Mac is the software that makes it run, that's the OS and all the iApps. Take away that, and it get's more and more expensive to switch. To Apple's advantage, though, is using the free iApp updates to "encourage" us all to upgrade to the latest OS.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by soosy


I disagree. They can make money by selling new products like Keynote. But charging for formerly free apps can sometimes generate more ill will than new revenue and will ultimately sacrifice loyalty and future hardware sales.

Exactly! Less than 15% of .Mac users resigned once a price was attached. I'm sure part of that 15% were bitter about being "forced" to do so (or have all their business cards reprinted).

I'll will was indeed generated and those expressing it were not "whiners", but customers who now carry a justifiably wary eye...

Perception counts more than reality here. Charging for something that was once free counts as "taking away".

[drastik]

I still don't understand the debate. Nothing has changed. The only thing you are being charged for is iDVD, which has never been free as an upgrade. It has been free on new machines, and it still is. There hasn't been any policy shift here, only a marketing one. iLife is a push to recruit users. IF you must have the other iApps on a disk, download and burn the dmg files. If you don't have a superdrive, wuit complaining. If you do and you want to upgrade, you have to pay. You always have had to pay for this. IF you don't want to pay don't upgrade.

Saying things like, I can't use my mac anymore because I don't want topay for the upgrade is silly. I have a 3400 and a Centris 610 and even an old Plus that work perfectly well, there isn't any hope of upgrading those machines. You got your mac to do something, and the only thing you are being charged for is burning DVDs. If you are able to upgrade, you have the previous version anyway, which works fine. I don't see the room for complaint [/rant]

[jayscheuerle]

Kinda lost track, eh?

The debate was about how Apple's iLife disk was supposedly going to charge for iDVD, iPhoto, iMovie and iTunes (maybe not iTunes?) and at the last minute changed to include iPhoto, iMovie and iTunes along with iDVD, but iDVD would be the only one you were paying for. The others would be along for the ride, but also available for free download.

The question was "Did Apple bow on this or were these apps always going to remain free?"

[nero007]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
It's a shame Steve and co. didn't get as much insight concerning .Mac.

My service provider, AT&T Worldnet, gives me an online calendar(with email alerts), online address book, webmail, 5 email accounts and 10MB for my website as part of my $16.95/month (150 hrs) plan. Everything works.

I know that sounds like an advertisement, but what is Apple giving me for $100 more? I'd bet that the discount price of $50 (still overpriced in my book) is going to become the standard price next year.

At least they're learning..... - j

$16.95/month comes out to a little over $200/year. That's $100 more than what Apple is charging for .Mac, so what is your point?

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by nero007


$16.95/month comes out to a little over $200/year. That's $100 more than what Apple is charging for .Mac, so what is your point?

That's the ISP.

.Mac is $100 more on top of that.
.Mac does not include ISP service.
If it did, it would be a deal.
It doesn't, so it's not to me.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by bryank1
I sent them an e-mail a couple days before MWSF and told them I was lucky I was even able to afford a Mac and that it seemed all I was doing last year was forking out money to keep upgrading everything (Jaguar, .Mac). I told them if they start charging for the iApps, I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to keep using my Mac, since the iApps were made to be part of the OS and one of the reasons I switched.

Okay. You bought your Mac with the understanding that you would get the apps that came with it upgraded for free in perpetuity?

No one (well, very few anyways) does anything like that, computers or otherwise.

Had Apple charged for iTunes 3, then you would still have been able to use iTunes 2 until your computer died of natural causes. Note that if you buy a new Mac today it comes with "iTunes 3", not "iTunes 4 and above"; this is intentional.

Buying Apple hardware does not give you access to every piece of software they produce forever after. That's just silly.

BTW, if you feel you have been "forced" to upgrade (to Jaguar or to .Mac), then you should examine that which is giving you this pressure. Can you not work with a less-than-the-latest operating system? Do you feel you could not live without your mac.com email address? Or, did you feel the need to upgrade because Jaguar and .Mac were compelling values to you? If the latter, then you have neither right nor reason to complain, and instead should be thanking Apple.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle

That's the ISP.

.Mac is $100 more on top of that.
.Mac does not include ISP service.
If it did, it would be a deal.
It doesn't, so it's not to me.

I know I'm drifting off topic here, but we just saw CyberDog reincarnated in Safari, maybe Apple will turn .mac into eWorld 2...
I could actually see Apple as a successful ISP. Even Earthlink, which provides some of the best Mac support, is a pain to deal with when your DSL quits working.
Apple could fuse .mac into an Internet service, which would make .mac really worth your money.

[GeeYouEye]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster


I know I'm drifting off topic here, but we just saw CyberDog reincarnated in Safari, maybe Apple will turn .mac into eWorld 2...
I could actually see Apple as a successful ISP. Even Earthlink, which provides some of the best Mac support, is a pain to deal with when your DSL quits working.
Apple could fuse .mac into an Internet service, which would make .mac really worth your money.

Though I happen to think that .Mac was a good value, it would certainly nice if Apple made it an ISP as well... especially if it included the option for broadband. Oh, and Cyberdog's not dead yet, or not entirely anyway; Sherlock's HTML renderer is based in part on Cyberdog's.

[jtonline]

I wish .mac did have ftp...over a modem iDisk is a b*tch...apart from homepage, all i use is the email, which i dont wana loose...

I'm running outta reasons to justify my .mac purchase of $100 NZD....It'll be worse next year, $200 :( ....im just a poor student...

[pyrotoaster]

I think an ISP fully integrated with the OS would really be something great from Apple.
I can't stand dealing with the tech support people at Earthlink, I have a Jaguar Mac sharing a DSL connection with a Mac running 8.6, and they don't have the slightest idea what to do when something goes wrong.

Really, an Apple ISP would make sense. The i in iMac stands for internet, so why don't we have an internet iApp? (beyond Safari)

[yosoyjay]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


Yes, if you're one of the 15% of the population that has broadband. Otherwise, the access rate is prohibitive and much slower/inconvenient than writing to a CD or Zip disk..


Is that really what percent of the population has broadband? If so, this country is lagging big time. I'm sure that it depends on what city you live in. I live in Seattle and I know 1 (one) person that does not have a broadband connection. However, when I lived in Albuquerque I was one of a maybe 4 people I knew that had broadband.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by yosoyjay


Is that really what percent of the population has broadband? If so, this country is lagging big time. I'm sure that it depends on what city you live in. I live in Seattle and I know 1 (one) person that does not have a broadband connection. However, when I lived in Albuquerque I was one of a maybe 4 people I knew that had broadband.

Actually, the numbers are dropping, broadband providers are folding... After initial waves of interest and enthusiasm, most people realized that for their own home use, the extra $20+ dollars a month wasn't worth it.

If you're into file swapping, grabbing warez, playing online games or downloading porn, it's a necessity, but most people are checking email and surfing lightly and have returned to their regular lives with one more tool in their pockets. I don't think Apple recognizes this.

I have broadband at work, where I download all my Apple Software Updates etc. and bring them home to my 56k connection. I'm guessing a lot of people operate this way...

[iJon]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle


Exactly! Less than 15% of .Mac users resigned once a price was attached. I'm sure part of that 15% were bitter about being "forced" to do so (or have all their business cards reprinted).

I'll will was indeed generated and those expressing it were not "whiners", but customers who now carry a justifiably wary eye...

Perception counts more than reality here. Charging for something that was once free counts as "taking away".

You guys ought to know that about 30,000 people got .mac for free like me. Everyone who was elgible for apples learn and earn was able to answere 10 questions, then they got .mac free for one year. most people i have talked to took advantage of the offer. probably not all 30,000 people but a bunch of them sure did to my knowledge. if i hadnt gotten it free i wouldnt have purchased it. but i will probably renew my subscription because i believe apple is gonna do some tight integration and new features with a mac an .mac. The one feature I really want is I want to be able to sync my safari bookmarks with .mac, so when i add a bookmark on my powermac, and i go to my powerbook, i can upload and recieve my latest bookmark additions to both my computers back and forth. i still got to email them about it, anyone else think that is a cool feature to possibly have.

iJon

[bryng]

Yes, I saw the iLife extract as well a few days ago. It was all there in black and white - at least at the time that text was finalised, Apple was going to charge for all the iLife apps except iTunes.

Doesn't make me happy at all, but Apple's got a real problem in that its hardware is so nice that people don't upgrade it, and if all the software is free then there's no revenue for them beyond the initial sale.

If you're a manufacturer of a fully integrated product like Apple is, that's a bit of a killer.

Hence we get .mac and a (at least it was going to be) sale-only iLife package, to try and get some ongoing revenue out of Apple owners.

I think that, particularly with hardware sales being relatively flat right now, we'll be seeing more from Apple over the next year that tries to get more of that money...

...I wouldn't be at all surprised, for example, if a further revision of iTunes is being held back a bit to work up a way of getting some cash out of us iPod owners.

[-hh]

Originally posted by jamilecrire


100MB is different than 10MB plus it integrates with your OS. Not to mention mac.com is a cool address.

I do however agree $100 is too much but $50 isn't bad.

Even at $50, I'd have a problem.

First, the only real "integration" I need is between my Desktop and my Palm. Since this is work related, this is Windows based and not Mac until such time that Apple can crack the 'No Macs' business barrier.

And at home, I don't want to dialup every time I want to do something, just to link with .mac Ditto for choosing to do virus scans, backups or whatever: the longer the action takes, the less I want it tying up my land line at 56K.

Similarly, for stuff like file sharing and web publishing, there's a lot of benefits to owning my own domain. At the very least, it lets me have dozens of "cool" email addresses instead of just one or a few. And I can configure these as forwarding addresses instead of actual email boxes and simply abandon them when they get trafficed up by the Spammers. I doubt that can I do that as ofte as I like or as easily in .MAC


Offhand, if I were to dump an extra ~$100 into services, I'd use it to upgrade my home ISP from 56K to broadband. The only problem I have there is that broadband's current going rates are still ~2x what I consider them to be actually worth.


-hh

[Talon1138]

I know it's hard to believe, but the truth is, people respect something more and think it's better if they have to pay for it.

For instance, I make event videos, and I doubled my business when I doubled my prices.

And sports games: who gives a **** when they give out free bobbly heads or foam hands, but go to the gift shop and the line is out the door to buy the same things.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Talon1138
I know it's hard to believe, but the truth is, people respect something more and think it's better if they have to pay for it.


So that's why I like hookers! Wait 'til my wife finds out.....

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Talon1138
I know it's hard to believe, but the truth is, people respect something more and think it's better if they have to pay for it.

For instance, I make event videos, and I doubled my business when I doubled my prices.

And sports games: who gives a **** when they give out free bobbly heads or foam hands, but go to the gift shop and the line is out the door to buy the same things.

Further proof that people are stupid. :D


Lethal

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by JBracy


Yes it is the same mechanism. However, it has different firmware which iDVD checks on launch. If it doesn't see the Apple FirmWare then it quits with a message that it can't find the correct hardware. At least that's what happens with the current iDVD. Maybe they've changed it with version 3, but no one outside of Apple will know until it ships.

I have a PowerMac that I've installed a Pioneer DVD AO4 into, with Pioneer stock firmware, and it runs iDVD 2.1 beautifully. I just hope to hell the new version won't block out OEM drive buyers.

[MacKid]

Originally posted by MikeUnicode
It's easier to convince people to switch to mac,
when it comes loaded with these FREE apps.
Remember, most people has a Windows software set that will not run on a mac, unless they BUY Virtual PC.

Make them pay for these APPs and suddenly they has much less reason to switch!

It's bad enough they have to buy a copy of MS Office for 200 bucks.

Apple should load AppleWorks on ALL it's machines.

Really, in a war you've got to play to WIN.

( Good job with Safari. )

If you think about switching to a Mac, wouldn't you not care if people pay for iLife or not, since the iApps come free on new computers? Or do they not? I thought that if you bought a new comp, it was Apple's responsiblity to put iMovie, iTunes, iPhoto, and in the case of a SuperDrive, iDVD. Am I wrong?:(

[arn]

Originally posted by terevos
Hey guys.. umm.. this doesn't seem like news to me. Macslash had reported this the day of the keynote.

"And, of course, the price. This new suite of iMedia iApps, now called iLife will retail at $49 and will be available on Saturday January 25. It will bundled with all new Macs. In addition, you can download iTunes 3, iPhoto 2 and iMovie 3 for free."

So I don't see why this is a rumor, nor why people think this is something new. This was reported since their initial announcement of the iLife product line.

The rumor isn't that these apps are available for free... as you said - everyone knows this.

The rumor is that Apple changed its plans at the last minute.

arn

[MacKid]

Originally posted by Sol
By the way, is it just me or was the iPhoto demonstration with the photo of the kid with freckles a bit mean? Steve Jobs demonstrated how with the new healing brush you could delete scratches, blemishes and even freckles from pictures of your kids. Excuse me but if kids are not entitled to have scratches, blemishes and freckles then who is? Forget the healing brush and love your kids for the way they are, not what you wish they were.

C*o*U*g*HyearbookpicturesC*o*U*g*H:D

[iJon]

Originally posted by Sol
By the way, is it just me or was the iPhoto demonstration with the photo of the kid with freckles a bit mean? Steve Jobs demonstrated how with the new healing brush you could delete scratches, blemishes and even freckles from pictures of your kids. Excuse me but if kids are not entitled to have scratches, blemishes and freckles then who is? Forget the healing brush and love your kids for the way they are, not what you wish they were.
No in my opinin I dont think it was wrong or mean. For a couple of years I had very bad ance and a deep depression to go wit it. Only until about a year on Acutane I looked good again. If I took pictures with pimples on my face, I would love to heal it and make it look better. saying editing a couple of pimples on your son and daughter means you dont love them they way they are is in very stupid in my opinion. I have already used the healing brush many times in iPhoto2 just to touch up of my pictures where I may have had an outbreak or a red spot that day. saying you dont love your kids when you do that is just wrong.

iJon

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by arn


The rumor isn't that these apps are available for free... as you said - everyone knows this.

The rumor is that Apple changed its plans at the last minute.

arn

Hey arn, I thought everyone was just going to ignore that post.

:)

i_b_joshua

[ealar]

Originally posted by Sol
In the way he announced what will be free and will be charged for he gave me the impression that he was a little nervous, even unsure of himself. Maybe experience told him to expect the worst from the audience (and Mac users everywhere).


I was thinking the same thing, but then that might have been neveriousness because he wasn't sure the audience would understand what was free.

[Centris 650]

You know just because they are free now doesn't mean that they'll remain free.

[pantagruel]

Its not last minute, its been that way since the keynote. geez.

[soosy]

Originally posted by pantagruel
Its not last minute, its been that way since the keynote. geez.

LOL

*rolls eyes*

Please, make it stop!

[kiwi]

You could tell by the way Steve carefully made sure we all understood that 3 of the apps would be free and a reminder that iDVD had never been free etc. His demeanour, inflexion etc all led me to believe right then, (before this latest Think secret 'revelation') that Apple had made a last minute change to iLife pricing.

Further (circumstantial) evidence of this last minute change by Apple is how confused all the press and anal-ysts were after Macworld keynote. Associated Press etc all insisted after the Keynote that iLife apps are no longer free - none of them - and will cost $49. Obviously they were confused by earlier, insider, info from Apple before Apple changed things.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/789/3579007.html

[ezkimo]

My aunt attended MWSF and sent me a bunch of pamphlets and stuff from it. In her package she included and iLife brochure which (I would think) was printed at least 3 or 4 days before MW.

It says, and I quote

"iTunes 3 is included with iLife, and remains freely downloadable from Apple's Web site (www.apple.com/itunes). iPhoto 2, iMovie 3, and iDVD 3 will NOT be downloadable."

Is that enough proof to show that it was a last minute decision?

-Zach

[ibjoshua]

Originally posted by ezkimo
My aunt attended MWSF and sent me a bunch of pamphlets and stuff from it. In her package she included and iLife brochure which (I would think) was printed at least 3 or 4 days before MW.

It says, and I quote



Is that enough proof to show that it was a last minute decision?

-Zach
Sounds like it to me.

i_b_joshua

[benixau]

looks like TS is still a reasonably credible source then.

[terevos]

Originally posted by arn


The rumor isn't that these apps are available for free... as you said - everyone knows this.

The rumor is that Apple changed its plans at the last minute.

arn


Ahh.. you are correct. My bad. Thank you for the clarification.

[sanford]

Originally posted by Sol
That Apple made a last-minute change is something that I suspected while watching Steve Jobs' keynote.

I read somewhere that iLife is distributed on 2 DVDs. If that's the case, the supposition that Jobs changed his mind at the last minute doesn't make much sense. Apple still sells computers without DVD drives. These computers all support iPhoto 2 and iMovie 3, but if the only way to get them is on DVD, that shuts out the non-DVD Macs.

Makes more sense that selling the bundle with iDVD 3 as the only paid upgrade -- the other apps included for convenience -- was always the plan. After all, you only need iDVD 3 if you have a Superdrive and everyone with a Superdrive can read DVDs.

Presumably the physical format for distribution of iLife was decided some time before the product announcement.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by sanford


I read somewhere that iLife is distributed on 2 DVDs.

I read the same thing & thought "What kind of bloated joke is this?"

I'm hoping it was a misprint. Even 2 CD's is more than enough DVD sized templates...

[iJon]

Originally posted by sanford


I read somewhere that iLife is distributed on 2 DVDs. If that's the case, the supposition that Jobs changed his mind at the last minute doesn't make much sense. Apple still sells computers without DVD drives. These computers all support iPhoto 2 and iMovie 3, but if the only way to get them is on DVD, that shuts out the non-DVD Macs.

Makes more sense that selling the bundle with iDVD 3 as the only paid upgrade -- the other apps included for convenience -- was always the plan. After all, you only need iDVD 3 if you have a Superdrive and everyone with a Superdrive can read DVDs.

Presumably the physical format for distribution of iLife was decided some time before the product announcement.
actuall i remember hearing it would be on 2 cd's and 1 dvd. apple cant put it all on dvds because not everyone has a dvd rom in their computer. but what i read was 2 cd's, 1 dvd. ill see if i can find out where i read it, may have been apple's site possibly.

iJon

[iJon]

ok here we go, i found it. i was wrong. 1 cd and 1 dvd.

iJon

[jayscheuerle]

2GB disk space required to install iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD (Apple SuperDrive required for iDVD) or 250MB disk space to install iTunes, iPhoto, and iMovie only.

[sanford]

Alright, I was wrong. So TS story about the free versus paid upgrades could be accurate after all.