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MacBytes
Jan 27, 2006, 09:29 PM
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Category: News and Press Releases
Link: The Consumer Council of Norway files a complaint regarding iTunes' terms of service (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20060127222935)
Description:: When you purchase music from iTunes they give themselves the right to single-handedly change your rights at any given later date. For this and other reasons the Consumer Council of Norway has delivered a formal complaint to the Consumer Ombudsman where we ask them to look into several violations of The Marketing Control Act.

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

lordj4000
Jan 27, 2006, 10:17 PM
Hmmm.... looks like Norway is about to lose its itms.

ibilly
Jan 27, 2006, 11:23 PM
I'm completely on the Norewgian side on this one

Some DRM and related things that Apple does aren't so pleasnt IMO

Nermal
Jan 28, 2006, 02:05 AM
I'm completely on the Norewgian side on this one

I think I am too, although I'd need to see more than a summary to make an informed decision. I'm interested in hearing from Mitthrawnuruodo et al.

solvs
Jan 28, 2006, 02:43 AM
Perhaps they should go after the record companies over there, since they are the ones demanding the DRM restrictions. Not saying Apple isn't somewhat responsible. But their hands are kind of tied as it's the RIAA here that dictates these things.

Deepdale
Jan 28, 2006, 03:42 AM
Norway also gets my support on this. The purchase of prior ITMS selections should not be rendered incapable of being used on mp3 players other than iPods.

24C
Jan 28, 2006, 07:28 AM
The Norwegian initiative gets my vote, but as others have mentioned it's really more a music industry issue that is forcing the 'legal' side, but the rights to purchase music in a format that limits free choice in ways that a CD doesn't needs to be addressed better.

pth-webdev
Jan 28, 2006, 07:31 AM
You can still listen to the music bought on iTMS, even without an iPod. You can listen to it on a Mac, a PC, stream it with AirTunes to your audio center and burn it onto several CD's to play them at home, in your car or even in a portable CD player. So the whole lock-in they mention is just FUD.

And there might be actual reasons to change what you can do with the DRM (because of Apple or because of the license-holders). However, DRM is enforced through technology. If you have a running iPod and you have a version of iTunes that you like, then you need to make a balanced decission when a new version of iTunes comes out that enforces different rules: upgrade and accept the change or keep with what you are happy with.

If they are unhappy with the fact that non-Norwagian law is choosen, then they should just say so. Hiding behind non-issues just weakens their arguments.

MarcelV
Jan 28, 2006, 07:39 AM
Norway also gets my support on this. The purchase of prior ITMS selections should not be rendered incapable of being used on mp3 players other than iPods.
So, you think Microsft's DRM is much more open? Because different brands support that DRM, it does not mean it is more open. In fact, it's a more restricted DRM. Think, Windows DRM available on Mac? DRM is NOT Apple's requirement, it's the record companies. In fact, the original iTunes plans did NOT include DRM at all, based on just the use of AAC as codec. It became a good vehicle for Apple to build their controlled environment, but originally it was not part of it. The record companies did not want to sign with Apple unless a DRM scheme was provided. And the reason, you have a good Portable Player experience, is the full integration between backend and frontend. If it was open, that experience would be much less. Reason why MS is not capable to compete with Apple on this front.
The only thing I think Apple should do, is to keep track of your purchases (which they already do), and if you loose one, you can redownload that song. But in their defense, if a CD becomes damaged, do you get a new one?

Mitthrawnuruodo
Jan 28, 2006, 07:49 AM
I think I am too, although I'd need to see more than a summary to make an informed decision. I'm interested in hearing from Mitthrawnuruodo et al.You ask, and you shall receive (;)):

Well, I've only bought a total of 8 songs from iTMS, and get all my music for free, and legally mind you, elsewhere, so in that respect I don't care too much... ;)

The Consumer Concil has one good point and one or two lame ones, IMO.

The worse is the same old "this locks you to iTunes/iPods forever" argument, as long as iTMS is an integrated part of iTunes. And even Apple hints to how you can get around this:
Songs purchased from the iTunes Music Store are in AAC Protected format. You cannot convert them to other formats, including MP3. You can, however, back them up to a data CD or DVD, or you can burn them to an audio CD.And when you have them on an audio CD, well you can do what you want. All right, there's a loss in quality, but back in the day, when it was deemed legal to make copies for yourself, the only option most people had was to play their LPs (or cassettes) to cassette, with a major hit in quality, so I don't think you should complain too much on the protected aac > audio cd > mp3/aac/whatever... ;)

Another silly thing is that in trying to say that iTMS Norway should follow Norwegian and not English or Luxemburg law, they keep referring to iTunes.no (and even if you will be directed to apple.com/no/itunes) this is just an info page for iTMS Norway, not the store itself. (But I actually agree to their point, that as long as iTMS has a Norwegian localization, in Norwegian language, where you pay in Norwegian currency and only can purchase with a credit card issued to someone with a Norwegian address, then the store is Norwegian and should follow Norwegian law, I just think one of their main arguments is silly... ;)).

The good point is that Apple actually tries to reserve a right to change terms of current sales in the future. (Wasn't there a thing that they reduced the number of times you could burn one playlist with purchased music from 5 to 3, or something?) Now, that contradicts Norwegian (and probably most European) consumer laws. Once a sale is final the seller cannot change terms at a later date. And on this point Apple probably will get busted (and rightfully so ;)).

Stella
Jan 28, 2006, 11:27 AM
I absolutely agree to Norways complaint.

You should not be tied to one media player for your music. If I choose to, realistically I should be able to use the DRMed music on any media player.

There is really no different between digital music and CDs. A different format of media, not more, no less. Imagine if CDs came out that could only play on one brand of CD Player?!! Sounds stupid doesn't it.

Digital music is no different.

I don't care whether the complaint is filed against Apple, or any other music store. Its still valid.

You can still listen to the music bought on iTMS, even without an iPod. You can listen to it on a Mac, a PC, stream it with AirTunes to your audio center and burn it onto several CD's to play them at home, in your car or even in a portable CD player. So the whole lock-in they mention is just FUD.

And there might be actual reasons to change what you can do with the DRM (because of Apple or because of the license-holders). However, DRM is enforced through technology. If you have a running iPod and you have a version of iTunes that you like, then you need to make a balanced decission when a new version of iTunes comes out that enforces different rules: upgrade and accept the change or keep with what you are happy with.

If they are unhappy with the fact that non-Norwagian law is choosen, then they should just say so. Hiding behind non-issues just weakens their arguments.

But what you don't seem to realise is, it takes a lot of time to burn CD -> Re-rip.

Its an unnecessary step. its a hassle.

All the DRM players should get together and create a unified DRM standard.

It *will* happen eventually.

solvs
Jan 28, 2006, 07:40 PM
Wasn't there a thing that they reduced the number of times you could burn one playlist with purchased music from 5 to 3, or something?
Playlist was dropped from 10 to 7 burns. But you can recreate a new playlist with the same songs and/or in a different order. They only did this so they could increase the allowed computer from 3 to 5. Again, at the behest of the RIAA. ;)

gwangung
Jan 29, 2006, 12:29 AM
But what you don't seem to realise is, it takes a lot of time to burn CD -> Re-rip.

Its an unnecessary step. its a hassle.


Yeah? And that's how it was in the "old" days, too.

Timepass
Jan 29, 2006, 03:06 AM
But what you don't seem to realise is, it takes a lot of time to burn CD -> Re-rip.

Its an unnecessary step. its a hassle.

All the DRM players should get together and create a unified DRM standard.

It *will* happen eventually.

Now that is something I would love to have happen. Just finally have one DRM standard. I also agree with what norway is doing on this one. Attacking apple on a very valid point. They are not hitting for the itune iPod integration but getting them on anything boughten from the store will only work on the iPod player (or a computer) even though I own an iPod I still think that music boughting from the iTune music store should only be limited to the iPod. They dont have to make the interfaces as nice and eyes just have lets other players work with it.


Personly I think apple should take it chance now and try to make it formate the DRM industry standard. If they dont you know full well that M$ will get WMA made the standarded and the it would be solo apple fault having a huge screw up yet again will make them loose having a majority market share. (the other mistake was a long time again when apple had it chance of really taking over hte PC market and they screwed up.) They have the chance now and they need to take advatage of before competors start taking away a good chunk of there market share.

solvs
Jan 29, 2006, 04:18 AM
the other mistake was a long time again when apple had it chance of really taking over hte PC market and they screwed up
http://daringfireball.net/2004/08/2004_wont_be_like_1984

Though I partially agree. I'd be happier if they just did away with DRM all together, but it would be nice to have it universal if it's neccessary. As long as it isn't WMA. Protected WM files don't even play on a Mac.

Stella
Jan 29, 2006, 10:40 AM
Yeah? And that's how it was in the "old" days, too.

?

Because this had to be done in the past ( and still ) doesn't make it correct.

Having to burn CD -> rip CD is an uncessary step in this day and age.

One unified DRM standard, please.

Mitthrawnuruodo
Jan 29, 2006, 10:43 AM
Because this had to be done in the past ( and still ) doesn't make it correct.Maybe not, but the laws were built on the methods from those times... so if you want new and improved methods, count on new and stricter laws...

...unless of course all people suddenly become honest and don't share their music files online... :rolleyes:

bousozoku
Jan 29, 2006, 11:19 AM
Apple have had to work with every country's laws and recording companies and their supporting organisations and it obviously took a gentle hand to get things going to open a music store for each of the countries.

It's sad that we don't have a voice in this but until greed goes away, I don't think the people are going to have any real voice--even in Norway.

Why do the iTunes Music Store purchases have to work on other players? There are lots of other stores out there. Once again, it's a reminder--Apple is a hardware company.

narco
Jan 29, 2006, 12:23 PM
One of the many reasons I still buy CDs rather than purchasing songs with DRM.

Fishes,
narco.

Timepass
Jan 29, 2006, 01:25 PM
http://daringfireball.net/2004/08/2004_wont_be_like_1984

Though I partially agree. I'd be happier if they just did away with DRM all together, but it would be nice to have it universal if it's neccessary. As long as it isn't WMA. Protected WM files don't even play on a Mac.

well DRM is here to say as much as I hate to say it. I would like it to be just done away with as well. Now if apple doesnt take advatage of it market power now to get it formate to be the standard you know M$ will push for it and it will be WMA and I will put the blame solo on apple for that mistake since they did not take adavatage of it while they had it. iTunes is sololy starting to loose some of it market share to competors as they enter the market (when you have one as high as apple the only way to go is down) the more than enter a smaller piece of the pie apple has and since most of those competors are using WMA formate that means that everyone that enters it means just a little more WMA formate out there compared to AAC formate

rjwill246
Jan 30, 2006, 12:36 AM
In typical Euro-liberal-fascist thinking, this aims at the wrong thing. Apple being a BIG, esp US company, must have ill-designed aims on the poor public to rip them off. As stated above, Apple HAS to use some DRM system- no choice involved and Apple most certainly does NOT have to make their ITMS store compatible with other MP3 players-- it is their product to do as they will. If someone doesn't like that, don't by iPods and the issue goes away-- it's that simple. In any case, it's really a non-issue because once the song has been burned to a CD it is movable to any player but none of these bozos thinks beyond the knee-jerk reactions and has figured this out--- no wonder Europe is still an economic shambles.

24C
Jan 30, 2006, 02:45 AM
OT ...snip--- no wonder Europe is still an economic shambles.As much as I dislike some of the legislation coming out of Europe, I'd rather have what we have, than going to war every few generations, and if you look at any collective of industrialised nations, they are all struggling with the historic implications of previous manufacturing plants & democracy vs the cheaper labour & new plants in China.