Notebook value for switchers

[mac_hermit]

I know it's been discussed a lot, but I wanted to share a comparison I've been doing between an iBook and a Dell notebook to give an example of the cost hurdle switchers face.

I've only owned Mac's (currently an iMac DV with a 400 MHz G3 running OS9), and have been considering adding a notebook for general use in our home. This would be lots of web surfing, email, letter writing, and probably iLife-type stuff. It occurred to me that having a PC around for access to the zillion PC aps (without having to deal with Virtual PC) might be nice, so I started looking at what Dell had to offer.

Here's what I found. Dell's 4150 is a very close match in many features to a 14" iBook:

Dell 4150
P4M 1.8 GHz
512K Cache
512 MB 266 Mhz DDR
14" (1600x1200)
ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 with 32 MB
AGP 4X
30 GB Disk
PCMCIA
1.47" x 12.5" x 10.0"
5.6 - 6.2 lbs

iBook
G3 800 MHz
512K Cache
256 MB PC100
14" (1024x768)
ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 with 32 MB
AGP 2X
30 GB Disk
Firewire
1.35" x 12.7" x 10.2"
5.9 lbs

Comparing the cost of these systems, including WiFi support, additional memory for the iBook, and an extended warranty (which I really want for a notebook) is amazing:

Dell 4150
Base Price $1299 (after rebate)
Extra Memory included
WiFi Card included
WiFi Router $ 110
Ext Warrenty $ 119
Total Cost $1528

This is a special preconfigured system Dell's been offering for several months.

iBook (from the Apple store)
Base Price $1499
Extra Memory $ 150
WiFi Card $ 79
WiFi Router $ 199
Ext Warrenty $ 249
Total Cost $2176

The iBook package prices out 42% more expensive than a very similarly equipped Dell laptop! I could probably save about $200 buying mail order to get memory bundled and using a cheaper WiFi router instead of the Airport, but still, this is a much more expensive system than what the PC world is offering. I certainly understand that the iBook is offering me a much better software environment, but I really miss the value my iMac DV was 3 years ago. I also find myself wanting to play a waiting game: if the iBook is this expensive, aren't they sure to drop the prices soon?

I haven't done a similar comparison between a Dell desktop system and and iMac, but I suspect the Apple premium is even greater in that case.

I'm sure I'll end up with an iBook, so can I live without the extra memory on the iBook? Is the 256 MB it comes with enough for what I'll be doing? I'd like to buy from the Apple store if I can but I don't want to pay for the memory it takes to make the system reasonable.

[ELYXR]

I'd do a "value-retention" study. Go to eBay and see how much a 2 year old laptop from Dell is worth versus a 2 year old Apple. I think you'll find that the Apple is a better "investment".

[vniow]

Why are you comparing the 14"? Hardly anyone buys that one, the 12" is where the value's at.

That Dell you listed may be cheaper and more powerful, but how's the battery life? Did you also take into the account that PC notebook chips run at about half speed when they're not plugged into the wall to save battery life?

Most people know that the 14" isn't exactly the best value, that's why they avoid it. Now go and try to find a 12" PC notebook with the same specs. Chances are it won't have as much VRAM, will most likely not have an internal optical drive (you'll have to carry around a dock for thathttp://img.ranchoweb.com/images/veronica/rolleyes.gif) and it'll run at full speed no matter if it's on, plus it'll have longer battery life to boot.

Granted, if you compare the 14" to other PC 14"ers, then the PC will have the advantage, but compare Mac and PC notebook for what their purpose is, that's portability, and the Mac will have the edge.

[RBMaraman]

vniow's right. If you want to buy an iBook, get the 12". I, personally, find the 14" to be weird looking. For what you get, the 12" is an excellent value, especially when compared to nearly all PC laptops.

I would definitely get the extra memory. OS X loves RAM, and the more you put in that iBook, the faster OS X is going to be. I only have 256Mb (Two 128Mb chips), and I plan on removing the 128Mb chip I installed and replacing it with a 512Mb chip. Also, don't buy memory from Apple. You can find it MUCH cheaper anywhere else.

Also, one quick correction. You have the iBook listed as having a G4 processor when it only has a G3.

[Glial]

Hey the guy that sits next to me in my night class has a dell laptop, he quit bringing it though because his battery would die before the class ended. Hint Hint

iBook 12.1 800mhz/384mb ram

[Beej]

How about including the cost of adding FireWire to the Dell?

[benixau]

beej:
{
most pc notebooks these days have at least one firewire 400 port in them.

i doubt the dell doesnt being apple main competitor and all.
}

mac_hermit
{
the ibook regardless of screen size will alst about 5hrs. at a regular school you do about ... 5hrs of actual work with 1hr of breaks. if you charge you ibook at the longest break then it will last the entire day. i know a friend who has a toshibe notebook, he bring it to scchool and uses it only for information processes and technology. i asked him why when the board of education can supply computers for kids in the HSC. he said cause the battery doesnt last in any of the other classes. as is he has to put it on charge after class so he can go to the library and print it off.

the only notebook apple sells that has a life nearly as ashorts as a pc's life is the 17"pbook. and that can be soley attributed to the 17" screen.

besides, do you really want to have to configure your network?? in windows??

i has to once for a notebook. andd i have decided that even though this baby ran faster than a dp 1.25 when it was on the wall, i am getting a pbook 15" 1g w/combo.

[jaguarx]

I'm switching to a 17" PB.
Firslty, as stated above, PC notebook batt life is just utterly pathetic. IMHo apple make the only portables that have a real battery life you can work with. Secondly, the software, i've worked with windows and linux for years, i'm sorry but Linux is NOT ready for the desktop and i'm sick to the teeth of windows, XP, 2k, 9x, they're all pretty horrible. I'm willing to pay the extra 50+% for that, and a case that makes everyone drool ;)

Yes the 17" has a shorter batt life, I'm buying a second batt.
Gives me a total of around 8 hours.

[Nipsy]

Here's my edited cost comparison:

Dell 4150
Base Price $1299 (after rebate)
Extra Memory included
WiFi Card included
WiFi Router $ 110
Ext Warrenty $ 119 (prolly necessary based on my experience with Dell laptops)
Total Cost $1528 (assuming your rebate succeeds, otherwise $1678)

I was wholly unsuccessful at locating this feature/price combo, and the machine I configured to match th *books below was well over 2kl prior to rebates.

This is a special preconfigured system Dell's been offering for several months.

iBook (from the Apple store)
Base Price $1499
Extra Memory $ 85 (http://store.yahoo.com/boundless1/pow51notmem2.html)
(you can sell your old chip on eBay to recoup another $10-30)
WiFi Card $ 79
WiFi Router $ 99 (http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/339/C1372/)
Ext Warranty $ 0 ( you have a year to decide on Apple Care, and if a machine is rock solid for a year, it is unlikely to fail in a Warranty covered manner)
Total Cost $1762

iBook 12" Combo (from the Apple store)
Base Price $1299
Extra Memory $ 85 (http://store.yahoo.com/boundless1/pow51notmem2.html)
(you can sell your old chip on eBay to recoup another $10-30)
WiFi Card $ 79
WiFi Router $ 99 (http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/339/C1372/)
Ext Warranty $ 0 ( you have a year to decide on Apple Care, and if a machine is rock solid for a year, it is unlikely to fail in a Warranty covered manner)
Total Cost $1562

iBook 12" Combo (from the Apple store)
Base Price $1799
Extra Memory $ 150 (http://www.18004memory.com/category.asp?catid=9&subcatid=901)
(you can sell your old chip on eBay to recoup another $10-30)
WiFi Card $ 99 (500% speed)
WiFi Router $ 130 (500% speed) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00007KDVI/scottyaloha-20/002-1402538-6504051)
Ext Warranty $ 0 ( you have a year to decide on Apple Care, and if a machine is rock solid for a year, it is unlikely to fail in a Warranty covered manner)
Total Cost $2178

PBook 12" Superdrive (from the Apple store)
Base Price $1999
Extra Memory $ 150 (http://www.18004memory.com/category.asp?catid=9&subcatid=901)
(you can sell your old chip on eBay to recoup another $10-30)
WiFi Card $ 99 (500% speed)
WiFi Router $ 130 (500% speed)
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00007KDVI/scottyaloha-20/002-1402538-6504051)
Ext Warranty $ 0 (you have a year to decide on Apple Care, and if a machine is rock solid for a year, it is unlikely to fail in a Warranty covered manner)
Total Cost $2378

The iBook 12" is a value leader here, and a fantastic machine. The 14" is a ugly bloated sibling with a wee bit more battery juice. When looking at the 14" as you have it configured, you're better off dropping $2250ish on the 12" PBook, with RAM and a linksys base station. The Dell is artificially deflated by by $200 because of the rebate. Many iBooks bundles are available which include goodies you can keep (or eBay)

Furthermore, the Dell laptops have horrible battery life expectancies, so you can expect to buy a new battery every 16 months or so. My Dell laptop now lives in a desk drawer running Windows services, because I got fed up after spending $600 on batteries.

The only shing attribute the Dell offers is the screen, however, 1400*1050 REQUIRES 20/20 or better at that panel size. (1600*1200 does not appear to be available on the 4150)

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Do you want a true laptop? I can actually run my iBook on my lap. I've used many Dell's and similar PC notebooks and every single one of them will burn you if you leave them on your lap for too long - even through jeans.

Did you include CompleteCare on the Dell. You'll need it. Those things break quite often. They use cheaper memory and cheaper parts, often times the parts failed tests by the manufacturer - a great way for Dell to increase it's margins.

Even with the warranty, I've been a consultant for about 5 people who've had Dell laptops recently. They tend to spend at least 2-4 hours JUST ON HOLD, waiting to talk to someone. When they finally get through, they get berated by the Dell guy and have to aggressively fight for Dell to even honor their own warranty. They never get replacements, even if the laptop is gone for 3 weeks. In fact, in one of our contracts, Dell was supposed to replace the laptop, at least temporarily, if it was taken out of our hands for more than a day.

There are also hidden charges when you buy from Dell. We actually ended up paying over $250 above the "quoted" price - plus tax. They just tacked it on, and would not say a word when we complained.

The keyboard breaks quite often, even when the user is not a guy who gives it the beat down. The memory has failed, so has the HD, the CD-ROM, the screen.

There are occasional Apple nightmares, but I've reviewed the statistics and have experienced their quality. Apples hold their value better, because they don't flood the market and people know their machines are built to last.

It's kind like American cars. Those classics built in the 50s and 60s were made to last forever. In the 70s, American manufacturers realized that if they built cheaper, they'd improve margins and the car would give out sooner, forcing you to spend more $$$ - hopefully with them. Same is true in PCs.

However, if you wanted a more reliable PC notebook, I'd go with either Sony or IBM - but you will pay more for them. And not everything will function properly because Windows XP still is not great with laptops - and it's a power hog. I get about 4 hours of battery life out of my iBook. I was able to watch Ben-Hur, all 3hours+. on ONE battery before it died. You'd be lucky if you could watch half that on a PC. I bought two batts for my iBook, and have actually never even used the second one. You'll need two batts on a Dell or any other PC.

And I wouldn't have said any of this six months ago. I used to be a PC sycophant - then I got my iBook because my PC continually crashed in the purportedly "stable" Windows 2000 Pro. I've never had a computer like the iBook - one that always does what I want it to do. The PC will not - guaranteed. It'll frustrate you when you have to go digging for drivers. It'll tick you off when you get your blue screen of death. It'll do the same when your DLLs get corrupted. The screen will never be as vivid and bright as the iBook's.

You pay more for the Apple - but you pay more for a product that is far, far superior in every single way. It's not made of cheap plastic and it's shell is sturdier than anything on low-end PC laptops. It's got a better design on the touchpad. The Dell's are thinner and far more constricting. It will recognize a network right when it is plugged in, and will jump from network to network with ease. And it will run fine with 256MB. That's all I got, and I've not had any problems are slow down. A Dell with only 256 in XP would give you tons of problems.
And the iBook will last longer, be more productive, and be worth something when you're done with it. No PC notebook can promise that.

[mac_hermit]

Thanks for the comments everyone. Here's a link to the Dell system I mentioned:
http://wwwc.dell.com/us/en/dhs/offers/specials_notebook_special.htm

It doesn't appear to include firewire, so add another $50 for a PCMCIA firewire card, though of course, not everyone would need that.

As far as 12" vs 14" screens, it's really a personal preference, and 14" is what *I* want. Judging by the selection of systems offered by the PC vendors, 14" or larger is what *most* people want, so Apple's lack of a competitive value at this size is a big issue for switchers, which was my point. Dell's selling notebooks with 14" screens as cheap as $750! I wouldn't want one (slow, heavy), but I'll bet they sell a lot of them.

Also, if Steve's right (and I think he is) about laptop sales increasing, some of that is going to come from people moving from desktops to more portable, space efficient systems, and they're not going to be looking at a 12" screen as an option. Apple needs to have reasonable desktop replacement systems in their consumer iBook line. Since this is MacRumors, I'll go out on a limb and predict we'll see new iBooks with 14" and 16" screens that include superdrives sometime this year.

If I were traveling a lot on business, or taking a notebook to classes, the 12" ibook would be a sweet machine, but I'm not, and really want the larger size.

[CrackedButter]

With the screen being 12" on the ibook, i would of thought the battery would of lasted longer than the 14". Why isn't that so.

[LethalWolfe]

mac_hermit , I know this is gonna sound obvious, but make sure you are paying attention to what you want, and which see which laptop will give you what you want. If the only, or most appealing, aspect of the Dell is price then you are going to be disappointed after you buy it because you bought what was cheaper, not what you wanted.

I've learned the hardway not to skimp when it comes to computers. The first computer I bought and the first computer I built I cut corners on here and there to save some $ and 6 months later I always upgraded the machines to, or beyond, their "pre-corner-cutting" specs.

Last April when I bought my first Mac I swore that I would buy the machine I wanted and not cut corners just to save a few bucks. I was looking for a machine to use for FCP so I bought the top of the line QuickSilver. I was in a bit of "shock" after I ordered it 'cause I'd never bought anything that was top of the line before, nor had I ever spent so much on a computer before. And looking back on it now it was the best computing decission I ever made (not neccesarily because I bought a Mac, but because I didn't short change myself).

I guess my point is if you really like the Dell more than the iBook then you should buy the Dell. If want the iBook, but you buy the Dell 'cause it's cheaper then in a few months yer gonna open the Dell, grumble, "I wish I had the iBook" and wish you'd spent the extra money and gotten something you wanted.


Lethal

[RBMaraman]

Originally posted by CrackedButter
With the screen being 12" on the ibook, i would of thought the battery would of lasted longer than the 14". Why isn't that so.

I think it's because the 14"'s casing allows for a slightly bigger battery. I could be wrong. This is just an educated guess.

[Nipsy]

Well,

the laptop you're looking at is not 1600x1200, or 1400*1050, it is XGA, which is Windows cryptography for 1024x768, so it is the same screen as the iBook.

As to the 12" vs. 14" debate, if both have the same resolution, I would opt bigger for the desktop, and smaller for the laptop.

Try to find volume measurements to assess as well as length/width/height. See if you can find on of these Dell's to play with, then play with an iBook.

If you feel more comfortable with the Dell, get it. That coupla hundred you save will come in handy when you need a new battery in a year or so, and a new laptop in two.

By the way, I thought I'd add that my 1992? PowerBook 180 has found a happy new eBay owner, who apparently uses it for the web....1992, was that 286/XT/AT days?

[Beej]

Originally posted by RBMaraman


I think it's because the 14"'s casing allows for a slightly bigger battery. I could be wrong. This is just an educated guess. You're right.

--

I think the most important point here has been left out.

Dell: Windows
Mac: Mac OS X

If you still need to think about it after that, you're a crazyman. :)

[macktheknife]

mac_hermit:

I had actually owned a Dell 4000 Inspiron laptop until I sold it last January to buy a 550 Mhz PowerBook. Here are my thoughts on this issue:

1. If you plan to play a lot of games, get a PC, period. Sorry to say this, but the state of Mac gaming is quite sad.

2. You can probably shave a $100 or $200 from the price of the iBook by buying memory and the wi-fi station from another source. No matter what you do, don't skimp on memory! This is especially true if you plan to run OS X.

3. Dells are not terrible machines: My Inspiron didn't crash all that much and it was fairly speedy (PIII 800 Mhz). That said, not everyone's experience is the same. My girlfriend's one year-old 12-inch Inspiron went crazy on her and her entire system crashed. Dell had to send her a replacement hard drive to "fix" the problem, and the computer hasn't been the same since.

4. Don't worry about resale value. You buy a computer to use it for work, play, etc. You don't buy a computer to worry about how much it's worth after you use it. I suppose resale value would be an issue if you plan to sell it on eBay every 6-12 months to upgrade. Nevertheless, I think resale value should be the least of your worries when buying a computer (although Macs do typically have higher resale value).

[yzedf]

Originally posted by Nipsy
Well,

the laptop you're looking at is not 1600x1200, or 1400*1050, it is XGA, which is Windows cryptography for 1024x768, so it is the same screen as the iBook.

Mobile Pentium®4 Processor,1.8GHz-M 14.1 UXGA ATI 32MB Video

source:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&kc=6V728&oc=41BUND&view=1

UXGA is not a Windows term.

Short for Ultra Extended Graphics Array, a display specification that is capable of displaying 1600 x 1200 resolution, or approximately 1.9 million pixels.

source:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/U/UXGA.html

[janey]

if you think comparing a 14" iBook to a Dell laptop is bad? Try comparing *ANY* PC laptop to the 17" Aluminum PowerBook! There is no way any PC laptop can weigh less than 7 pounds and be as thin as one inch, come with a BUILT IN DVD BURNER, FireWire 800, Bluetooth and 802.11g (not to mention the beautiful keyboard) and still be under $3500. And try finding a PC laptop with something bigger than a 16" screen!!!!! But hey like everyone already said don't get a mac for gaming.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by mac_hermit
I'm sure I'll end up with an iBook, so can I live without the extra memory on the iBook? Is the 256 MB it comes with enough for what I'll be doing? I'd like to buy from the Apple store if I can but I don't want to pay for the memory it takes to make the system reasonable.

You don't have to live without the extra memory! Buy from any reseller and they'll throw in extra memory. Just as one example, MacConnection.com will give you a 14.1" iBook with 640MB RAM for $1499:

http://www.macconnection.com/scripts/productdetail.asp?product_id=324396

All the resellers have similar deals - this is just the first one I found.

Throw in a $79 Airport card for a price of $1578.

Also keep in mind sales tax. I'm in NY and when I bought my last laptop from Dell I was charged sales tax (I guess Dell has operations of some kind in NY). Buying my iBook from a California-based reseller, on the other hand, I was charged no sales tax. Don't know if Dell would charge you sales tax where you're from, but that could make a $100 difference.

So yeah, the iBook would still cost a couple hundred more than the Dell. But I also have to put in a good word for the iBook 12.1". I went from a 14" Dell Inspiron to the 12.1" iBook and have no regrets. Keep in mind you don't lose any screen real estate if you're going to run the 14" at 1024x768 anyway. The iBook is very sharp at that resolution and even more legible than my old Dell.

I see your point about most people wanting a 14" or larger, but hey, when you're a niche player like Apple you have to pick your battles. Look on the flip side: the small-notebook market IS a significant market, with major players like Dell, Fujitsu, and Sony selling quite a few units. And in this market, the 12.1" iBook is a clear winner, in my opinion.

I'm a switcher BECAUSE Apple was catering to my needs exactly with the iBook. I was sick of my heavy, searingly hot, and poorly-constructed Dell. I mean, I know Dell has a reputation for quality but, man, they have REALLY slipped (and recent surveys and studies have shown as much). My Dell Inspiron was, bar none, the crappiest computer I have ever used (compared to the IBM Thinkpads and earlier-model Dell Latitude CPX's that I've used, to name just laptops). The case started developing cracks everywhere for no apparent reason, the display hinges started losing all tension, the battery was recalled, and finally the display died after 2 years. Compare that to my iBook with its 5lb weight, plexiglass-covered case, solid single hinge, and rubber-mounted hard drive, and you can see why I'm so happy with my iBook - it's everything my Dell wasn't.

Go with the 12.1" iBook - you'll like it.

[CrackedButter]

I don't want to pick but it seems nobody has used any laptop apart from a Dell or an Apple! :)

Anyway, i have got an NEC and i must list its good points first. Wonderful screen no dead pixels (NEC make good screens anyway) and its got wonderful keyboard. Thats about it other than its solid build.

But...it is heavy, its 3.4kg and noisy sometimes because it has a desktop processor and it only has a battery life of 45 minutes.

I'm getting a 12" ibook now and i want it for its weight, battery life and small form factor and its lack of noise.

Perfect nearly.

[jaguarx]

and it only has a battery life of 45 minutes. pfffftHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I've used Tibooks, they're fantastic.

[CrackedButter]

Yeah its a bummer only having 45 minutes.

Anyway i stopped using it other than to move the laptop around the house to plug it back in.

I never took it to college and because of the batteries inactivity it now last about 12 minutes.

[arn]

someone might have mentioned it...

but 3rd party ram and a 3rd party Wifi router will bring the price of the iBook down a little.

The iBook/OS X likes the RAM so I wouldn't recommend skimping on it.

Beyond that, there still may be a slight price increase on the iBook... but Apple's always had a slight premium... and the question is if it's worth it to you to use OS X and an Apple iBook.

I personally didn't get the extended warentee....paying $250 on a $1400 laptop does not seem worth it to me. I've got a iBook 12" Combo myself.

arn

[jaguarx]

Applecare always seemed overpriced to me. I mean even AU$500 on an AU$7000 laptop (17") seemed excessive.

[pnz999]

What do you mean by "UXGA is not a Windows term."? Like Windows doesnt support this resolution?



Originally posted by yzedf


Mobile Pentium®4 Processor,1.8GHz-M 14.1 UXGA ATI 32MB Video

source:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&kc=6V728&oc=41BUND&view=1

UXGA is not a Windows term.

Short for Ultra Extended Graphics Array, a display specification that is capable of displaying 1600 x 1200 resolution, or approximately 1.9 million pixels.

source:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/U/UXGA.html

[jaguarx]

He means it is not windows-specific.

[Nipsy]

Originally posted by yzedf


Mobile Pentium®4 Processor,1.8GHz-M 14.1 UXGA ATI 32MB Video

source:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&kc=6V728&oc=41BUND&view=1

UXGA is not a Windows term.

Short for Ultra Extended Graphics Array, a display specification that is capable of displaying 1600 x 1200 resolution, or approximately 1.9 million pixels.

source:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/U/UXGA.html

Ummm, that's not the laptop the poster was looking at. Okay, it is the system, however the first page calls it XGA, which I'm assuming is 1024x768, and the second page calls it UXGA, which I'm assuming is 1600x1200, although 1280x1024 or 1400x1050 could aslo be construed as UXGA.

Also, UXGA has no logical meaning, whereas 1600x1200 does. Thats' what I meant.

[benixau]

Originally posted by jaguarx
Applecare always seemed overpriced to me. I mean even AU$500 on an AU$7000 laptop (17") seemed excessive.

problem is, you name me one component in that system (bar RAM) that is cheaper than that to have apple replace it??

nothing. believe me. they charge AUD400 for a power supply. sadly applecare is good value compared to having things fixed.

[AnotherMortal]

I happen to own a Dell Inspiron 4100 and an iBook(600mhz 16VRAM) and I don't use my dell for school anymore. This is partially due to the fact my dell's power button has decided to act up, and not work 75% of the time, and the horribly battery life. My iBook has become my school laptop for notes, streaming iTunes, iChat, etc etc. I only use my Dell at home as a desktop replacement (so I never have to turn it off!)
I haven't yet switched over completely to my iBook because my dell happens to have the GeForce2 Go with 32MB, which is a bit better for gaming, and I'm very used to MS Money, my trust puTTY SSH client, FrontPage (I know, I know) for web design, and I still use Outlook Express for email. (I do like Entourage though)

I work for a large and prestigious university in one of the few, if not only, Apple Authorized Service Center. So, I can take the luxury of having two laptops, but having seen a lot of computers come and go through the shop, I'd recommend against the 14" iBooks as they are hardly ever purchased through us, and too unwieldy. My dell is lighter and more compact.

My boss will also cast his two cents and recommend against buying a "First Model Year" from Apple, though personally, if I was trying to decide what laptop to buy, I'd either go for the 12" PB, or wait until a beef-up in the iBooks. I bought my iBook about 4 months after they released the 16VRAM model, and in November they released the new PBs, which I wish I had gotten instead.

Price for Price though, my Dell was cheaper. But I got the AppleCare warranty on my iBook (at an extra $250) and only a 1 year on my Dell (They are obsolete after a year anyways). About $1500 - $1700 ish were the prices

[iJon]

what i dont understand you were comparing a price on a wireless router that were differenct prices. I can go get a linksys router that is cheaper than both the ones you quoted. Just because you get a mac doesnt mean you have to get an Airport. Plus i think these threads are really stupid. It's like everyday we see the same thing "I really love my mac, but look at this, i can get a dell for this much." No one cares, we all know that dells and everyone else is cheaper. They are a Windows machine, isnt it obvious now that Windows machines are gonna be cheaper. if you want a windows machine go get one thats ok, i have a windows machine as well. but you dont have to tell us which are cheaper, you know all we are gonna do is defend ourselves and show you that price isnt what all matters.

iJon

[mac_hermit]

The point of my posting wasn't so much about my personal situation (though I'll fill you in on that in a moment) as it was about the competitive marketplace and obstacles for the people targeted by Apple's "Switcher" campaign. Somebody looking for a new notebook who goes to the Apple store to see what these Mac's cost is going to see prices that are up to 50% more than (seemingly) comparable PC laptops from a place like Dell.

As another example, Office Depot is advertising a 12" notebook with 256MB RAM, 20GB disk, and a combo drive, that's 4.4 lbs and 1.3" thick for $900.

*I* understand the Mac advantage, and agree with much of what's been said here, but the issue is Apple's dwindling market share, their attempts to convince people that the Mac is the better machine, and the fact that a 30 - 50% price permium is going be a pretty big hurdle for a lot of people.

As far as my personal purchase, I actually bought the Dell system back in November! Then in December, I sent it back for a full refund. That Microsoft software just isn't ready for prime time. Multiple crashes of the OS, IE, and Word. Installed the XP service pack and it corrupted the system enough that we were forced to reload everything from CD. Then we find out Dell didn't ship all the software on CD (let alone any kind of nice integrated CD that lets you completely restore your disk to the way it came from the factory). It's amazing people are willing to put up with this.

The Dell hardware was fine. Ran over two hours doing wireless surfing. I really liked the keyboard much more than what's on an iBook. Dell's return policy let me ship it back within 30 days for a refund (Apple only gives you 10).

I'll by an iBook, because there's real value in having a system that will actually work, but I'm afraid a lot of people who've seen a switcher ad will never get past the cost.

[AnotherMortal]

I look at it like this:

You can buy the Chevy Cavalier of computers,
or you can buy the BMW of computers.

but you get what you pay for.

....

and my iBook has been more reliable since I bought it in July of 2002 than my Dell, which I bought in April of 2002.

You are right though, many people get hung up on the cost of computers, and try to cut corners, and save money. But if you're helping someone buy a computer, ask them if they'd buy a car without airbags to save money. Ask them if they'd get the 3sp manual instead of the 5 for an extra $200 (or whatever) or even ask them if they'd get the manual because its cheaper than the automatic....

[jaguarx]

problem is, you name me one component in that system (bar RAM) that is cheaper than that to have apple replace it??

nothing. believe me. they charge AUD400 for a power supply. sadly applecare is good value compared to having things fixed. I know, still ********* expensive.

I'll most likely buy it, doesn't mean i'm happy about it. I'm also pissed off becase i can't buy the laptop in Singapore and buy Applecare here, they won't let you.
Bastards.

[iJon]

Originally posted by AnotherMortal
I look at it like this:

You can buy the Chevy Cavalier of computers,
or you can buy the BMW of computers.

but you get what you pay for.

....

and my iBook has been more reliable since I bought it in July of 2002 than my Dell, which I bought in April of 2002.

You are right though, many people get hung up on the cost of computers, and try to cut corners, and save money. But if you're helping someone buy a computer, ask them if they'd buy a car without airbags to save money. Ask them if they'd get the 3sp manual instead of the 5 for an extra $200 (or whatever) or even ask them if they'd get the manual because its cheaper than the automatic....
Unfortunatly the cavalier right now is faster than that bmw, thats how i look at car analogies,lol. its true though.

iJon

[Jays]

I really don't understand what this whole discussion is about, you can compare prices between Mac's and PC's all you want but the bottom line is:
do you want a Mac (OS X) or a PC (Windows) that should be your first decision, after that one is made you can start shopping around for the best deal.

A year ago I bought a Powerbook 550Mhz my first laptop, (but not my first mac), I still drool over it, it is the best computer I have ever had, I use it as my main desktop (with a 20" apple monitor, keyboard and mouse) and as a portable computer. has never let me down, and surly OS X is the only way to go.

When I got it I was also taken back by a decision to spend so much money on a computer, but I don't regret a moment of it.

[AnotherMortal]

Originally posted by iJon

Unfortunatly the cavalier right now is faster than that bmw, thats how i look at car analogies,lol. its true though.

iJon

yeah, but what's the resell value of the cavalier?? I bought my Cavalier for 12k, and now the 2002 models sell for 8-10k slightly used....a BMW would make a better investment...but to me, a car is a car. Get me from school, to work, to home, and I'm happy. (laughs)

As for laptops, I agree with the poster who said decide if you want Mac OSX or Windows XP. Then choose the right laptop :)

But for me, I'll take a small mac laptop for school notes, itunes, ichat, etc, over a small PC laptop anyday.

[iJon]

Originally posted by AnotherMortal


yeah, but what's the resell value of the cavalier?? I bought my Cavalier for 12k, and now the 2002 models sell for 8-10k slightly used....a BMW would make a better investment...but to me, a car is a car. Get me from school, to work, to home, and I'm happy. (laughs)

As for laptops, I agree with the poster who said decide if you want Mac OSX or Windows XP. Then choose the right laptop :)

But for me, I'll take a small mac laptop for school notes, itunes, ichat, etc, over a small PC laptop anyday.
yeah i know, im just trying to say car comparisons arent really that great, but the broad idea of the mac being the beamer and the windows machine being the truck makes sense. i think it should be more like a mac being a bmw , and a windows machine being a pimped out civic. the civic is faster, but not as nice with the features as the bmw. you guys get what im saying.

iJon

[AnotherMortal]

iJon, you definitely make much better car comparisons than I do :)

[iJon]

Originally posted by AnotherMortal
iJon, you definitely make much better car comparisons than I do :)
thank you, i really never like the chevy vs ferrari comparisons because they never made sense. I hope my comparison sets the new standards for the official Apple-Windows Car Comparisons. yeaa!!

iJon

[AnotherMortal]

at the very least people stop using the "Apples to Oranges" pun........