View Full Version : Game anyone?
Jul 19, 2001, 04:50 AM
OK. So MWNY wasn't too exciting.
But I want to buy a games machine. I do web design and graphics, but I figure that software is on the PC too.
So I go to the Apple store and I figure the iMac isn't for me. A Rage 128 is a joke (and I'm with TechTV - I wanted paisley). Besides, I need a bigger monitor.
So the only option from Apple is a tower.
Cool. So how much? I'm on a budget so I'll start with the low end 733Mhz. I check the pop up menus. I notice it has a slow (5400rpm) 40GB HD. Can you use iMovie on this thing? Anyway, 733Mhz. No modem (got ADSL hehe). No speakers (okay, one redundant built-in but I've got my own anyway). Only 128MB RAM as Apple charge too much (I'll get it somewhere cheaper later). This box has no DVD, just CD-R.
The only thing I'm going to put in it is an nVidia 3 card (instead of the nVidia 2). I want this thing to keep up for two or three years...
So how much you ask?
Sounds a lot in Aussie dollars doesn't it? It is. (Halve it for US dollars).
If I want an Apple 17" monitor with that (AU$2300):
A bit out of my budget for a low end Mac tower. Anyone know what type of PC I can get for that?
Australia's Gateway web page lists for AU$3673.50 the following: 1.4Ghz P4 (roughly the same as a 733Mhz G3 I guess...heh), 128MB RAM (just to keep them similar), 40GB (fast) HD, floppy drive (I don't know what they do but I'm keen to find out ;)), DVD (no CD-R option - damn! hehe), sound card, speakers and an nVidia GF3.
Oh, that includes a 19" monitor too.
AU$4,682.26 with no monitor.
AU$3673.50 with 19" monitor.
Even if I had the money for the LCD, I could get two of the Gateways (+ 2 x 19" monitors) for the same total.
Just thought I'd point that out. Someone tell Apple....
Jul 19, 2001, 12:18 PM
oohhhh, my ***** hurts :( !!!!!!
quit whining and go buy your stupid pc then-i don't wanna hear your whining anymore-no one else does either-i think you just want attention
Jul 19, 2001, 12:37 PM
look - he has a point. if you really feel like grabbing your minge every time you here a slight groan of disastisfaction, you are neither a mac fan, nor a consumer. No, you're merely represed.
As it stands, even a top end mac is an expensive joke when it comes to games playing. Or are you all 'l33t' web designers that are extra skilled at graphics and only live for photoshop? how funny - you will miss out on the joys of UNIX for longer. A mac at over 3200 uk pounds that ships with a gf2 MX? an 80 quid graphics card? and THATS value? Have any of you played UT or q3 on a pc??
I am sitting on 2500 quid desperate to buy a mac. Yeah - I COULD go buy a 733 and scrape enough for an apple screen - just, but thats a lot of dough, and I dont feel that being offered old hat tech for that money will make me feel particularly pleased. So I will vote with my wallet and hold back. Meanwhile all you 'stop whingeing! its so great out there! in 3 months you'll have an OS that works!!' may actually be better of chivvying along apple for some of their sharper practices, rather than whingeing at those that feel crapped on. Like R(e)AM, GF3 and 'free' CD pricing. oh, and having teh cheek to send out an email telling me the imac is now better value for money, when in fact the left out the 'more' before teh word money...
Steve aint gonna be giving you a kiss just because you defend the indefensible.....In fact, I suspect you may be doing apple more of a long term disservice than you think....
Jul 19, 2001, 01:51 PM
pants-learn how to spell. crikey! no really-if you are in these discussion forums, their should be no reason to whine and complain-the macrumors forums are for devoted mac fans. if you wanna buy a pc then do it- no one is stopping you. and by the way-you don't have to buy an apple screen just for the powermac-there are many other good screens, lcd and crt out there.
Jul 19, 2001, 02:42 PM
i dont think it is for mac zealots.
i dont think any forum is for any zealot unless it is labelled that.
the truth has to be accepted pc's r cheaper and more versatile, and that is partly why macs dont sell as well as the pc platform, but macs have good points too.
and besides, beauty doesnt cum cheap.
i Iike macs, their platform and the general non-geekyness of steve jobs. making computers funky is original and helps sort the geeky image problem, i like that.
thin ice has a good point, i aint the richest bloke in the world so it applies to me.
Jul 19, 2001, 03:17 PM
When assessing a Mac vs. PC, I'd not include a "Apple 17" Display" as a standard "display." It's not. It's a 17" LCD. It's $999 (USD). For $700 you can get a 21" FD Trinitron-tube'ed 21" screen (from KDS). I just bought a KDS 19" screen, again, FD Trinitron for $299 from BestBuy after the $70 rebate. Do you really need a $999 LCD?? LCD is inferior for gaming anyway (if you're not using its native 1280x1024 res, it looks bad). You could buy THREE of these Sony Trinitron-tubed KDS 19" monitors for the price of that Apple 17" LCD. So don't get the LCD.
That said, if you want gaming as your primary use for the machine, then you should go get a PC. I just ordered a dual-800MHz G4 + GeForce3, but I am aware that it is inferior for gaming to an Athlon 1.4 + GeForce 3. Especially given the fact that most of the GeForce3's real power is only, at present, brought out with DirectX 8 from Microsoft. It's the fastest Mac 3D card...but it's real features are not accessible through drivers, at present. Yea, OpenGL extensions _could_ be written to support the features, but how many Mac users have GeForce 3's?? Not many.
I am aware that OS X is the best OS by leaps and bounds, out there. This is why, even though I'm a huge gamer, I cannot stray from the Mac. Anyway, you can always go snag a PS2 on the side to fill in the gaps (as I've done).
Jul 19, 2001, 07:13 PM
When I did my final sums I didn't include the LCD monitor.
You can get 2 Gateways and 2 x 19" monitors for the price of the Mac BOX. No LCD monitor. If I get the LCD I can get nearly 3 Gateways + 3 x 19" monitors.
See my point now?
Offering no cheap monitors is just stupid. And if I'm getting a beige monitor, wouldn't I want a beige box anyway? There is chaos in the Apple lineup. And LCD's do suck for gaming so who want's an LCD iMac for gaming...
From the quality of the flames I get I think I'm pissing off some pretty stupid people (not you Blakespot. You're not flaming). I thought forums were for discussion but apparently that's only if we agree with certain people. Mac/PC comparisons are not welcome.
I will not be assimilated ;)
I've been a long time Mac user. I've done tech, sales and design in the Mac world. Probably more than most here. I've been using Mac's for a loooong time. I saw the first iMac long before you lot did. I have a Rhapsody T-shirt. I was a fanatic for quite a few years, like some of the rabid dogs around here :)
But if I'm going to keep justifying my Mac purchases, Apple is just going to have to try harder.
Now, I can just go my merry way and buy a PC or I can try to get Apple to pull their finger out. I'll try Apple first.
So could you please offer at least intelligent counterpoint to my argument rather than just "SHUT UP YOU *****!". If I want childish arguments I'll go hang at Disney.com.
Just to piss you off further before I go, today I saw two mobile phones running Windows. If Apple build their mythical PDA will it have a phone? The M$ PDA/FrankenPhone was $A500 (US$250) with a 2 year phone plan. Who will reach digital convergence first? What's Apples grand plan? Where's the vision? If they jiggle around in a niche they'll just dig themselves deeper.
This is a race. Apple missed the start gun. I'm yelling "GO" as loud as I can. You're telling me to shut up. Great. Any wonder I'm considering barracking for the other side? And I'm a good supporter too, when it's justified.
I assume the flamers are buying the new iMac....? Yeah, right. ;)
Jul 19, 2001, 07:24 PM
Forget the 3 x Gateway thing. I re-read my first post....
But there's no 17" or 19" CRT from Apple and if there were they would be double the cost of anything else out there.
Jul 19, 2001, 09:28 PM
you give no valid reason for why you won't buy an off-brand crt monitor.
Jul 19, 2001, 11:04 PM
A lot of it is about priorities...
Yes, you can build a cheaper PC with faster subsystems... but we've always paid a bit of a premium for Apple/Mac. Why do we do it? Well... it could be a lot of things... but Apple's never had the fastest/cheapest systems... but they have had the well designed, well thought out, elegant solutions...
Remember, there was a time when it was Mac OS 7 vs Windows 3.1... and people were still having this debate... Windows is cheaper/faster... but was it better? I wager, you take a Windows 95/98/2000 user and bring them back in time to 1992 when that was the decision... I bet most of them would choose Mac OS 7 at that time. Looking back, it's amazing anyone did anything with 3.1. Anyway - that's in the past... so fast forward to today...
why are we still here? Well, Mac OS (pre-X) has definitely showed its age... but Apple's hardware is still well designed... and pretty... What's amazing is how much the "pretty" factor plays... in reading comments by people - a whole lot of people are pissed because there weren't new enclosures. They didn't seem to care about the Mhz as much as "there aren't any new *&$%#$# enclosures!"
Regardless - I think these people are bit misguided... but looks sell, but it's really icing on the cake, for me. As for the speed... both Blake and I were pretty psyched about the speed. 800mhz dual means it can be no faster than 1.6ghz (since there is always overhead in delegating 2 cpu's), but for OS X, it's certainly faster than a single 800mhz. So, it falls somewhere in between... not bad. (note the dual 533mhz can increase Quake 3's Framerate (http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/Graphics/geforce3/GeForce3vs2MXvsRadeon.html) by 65% by kicking in the second processor).
Anyway - Mac OS X also is very impressive, and promising. Sure, it's still in development... but I like what I see. Being unix-based is nice, and helps "standardize" it.
Now we come to price... Mac's are more expensive - yep... no one is going to argue with that... we've all seen/done price comparisons.
But why doesn't everybody figure out the cheapest car each year and buy that one? Why does anybody buy a sports car which guzzles gas and costs more? I have a friend who spent $1100 on a mountain bike. I would never even buy a mountain bike much less spend $1100 on it. It's all about personal preference... So, if you have decided the cost/benefit to you in buying another Apple isn't worth it to you - then get a PC.
Jul 20, 2001, 12:05 AM
I'd like all you American readers out there to engage in a little role-playing situation to help you understand what it's like to be an Australian Mac user/purchaser. It might help you get inside the head of Thin Ice and myself to see why we've been saying the things we do.
Imagine that you're earning the same salary you're on now - you're still getting things called dollars and you get the same amount each week as you do now.
Now imagine that the top tax bracket kicks in at $60,000 (yep, that's right...it used to be $50,000 last year!) and you pay 47% on this. If your earning less than that, well you only get taxed about 43%, and the scale goes down from there.
Now take the price of the new Mac you're after, and double it. (US-AUS exchange rate) A $999 iMac is now $1998. Now add a further 10% for the sales tax that applies to everything here. Whack on a bit more to cover shipping from overseas, storage, and the fact that you're buying from an inefficient, over-taxed, Australian-run business that's forced to cope with European style regulation, strangulation and taxation regimes for the privilege of selling to a market smaller than New York state.
Your $999 iMac is now around $2200 or so. A top line G4 is coming close to $8000 without even a monitor. Remember, however, that your salary is unchanged, just taxed a lot heavier.
Now ask yourself... Do you still buy that Mac?
Thanks for playing...
Jul 20, 2001, 12:29 AM
Well. it comes down to the price/value ratio.... sure, I wouldn't buy a Mac at _any_ price.
So, put yourself in our shoes... Now, let's say I told you that you could get that Mac at 1/3-1/2 the cost... would you get it?
...well, I did. :)
Jul 20, 2001, 01:47 AM
>macrumors forums are for devoted mac fans. if you wanna >buy a pc then do it
Monkeybusiness, you have it all backwards. Your logic seems to be "I'm a Mac fan, therefore Apple makes great products".
With me, it was "Apple makes great products, therefore I'm a Mac fan."
Let me explain what it as like with Apple back in the day -the Apple that MADE me a Mac fan.
Remember when Apple had a full-blown GUI interface while PCs were stuck with DOS command prompts and ASCII graphics?
Remember when an average Mac ran 640x480 with 256 colors while an average PC had a 320x200 4 color CGA adapter?
Remember getting 16 million colors while your PC using neighbour was stuck with a 16 color EGA adapter?
Remember quality 8 bit, 22KHz sound built in when the average PC had a piezo speaker that went "bleep"?
Remember having the semi-32 bit 680x0 series with it's flat RAM space capability when PCs were stuck with 16bit x86 chips that couldn't address more than 1MB without major coding voodoo? Remember no MHz gap?
Remember having a fully developed desktop metaphor and interface while PC users struggled with Windows 3.0 and its total lack of metaphor, object orientation, and usability?
Built in SCSI and SCSI hard drives when most PCs were still using ESDI or the original, very slow IDE interface?
Cases with side-open access, VAST amounts of space for extra peripherals, and, like, 6 free PCI slots which were never needed because everything was already built in and already specc'd as some of the best stuff available?
Graphics, sound, GUI, networking, performance peripherals, multimedia, etc, etc, the list goes on and on, but they are areas where Apple was first to market, better, and more powerful than the PC competition.
Sure, a Mac was still more expensive, but every damn component was either better than the PC equivalent or offered features simply not possible with IBM technology. When you added up all the built in SCSI, ethernet, graphics, sound, etc, you soon realized that to build an equivalent PC would cost about the same or MORE. (yes, it WAS once possible to go spec for spec and come out with the PC costing more)
THAT is what value is, and THAT is the sort of stuff that made me and many others Mac fans.
Try doing this sort of comparison between modern PCs and Apples current lineup.... What the hell happened?!? We complain the graphics are underpowered compared to PC graphics cards. (WHAT!) We complain about slow hard drives and CDs. We complain about being left behind in the performance race. We complain that the new OS is not friendly and usable. (Althought I think it looks pretty good) Built in sound is now a poor joke - can't even record audio like a cheap $30 PC sound card. Innovation in GUI and interface design is now happening on the PC - witness the second mouse button and scroll wheels, both of which make GUIs more usable, both still absent from Macs. (except as a third party add on, after you've already paid for your expensive, 1 button Apple mouse)
WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE THINGS THAT GAVE APPLE THE EDGE!?!
One by one they've either been adopted by PC makers or abandoned in the name of cost cutting (which never seems to make Apple any cheaper). While all this was going on, Apple has rested on their laurels, allowed their once significant advantage to be slowly eroded, and failed to introduce new innovations to differentiate themselves from the horde of clones. The last time they DID do anything like this was the original iMac in 1998, when things like USB and firewire appeared, floppies disappeared and radical new forms took shape. Since then, these things have become staples in the PC industry, as they must. Apple has not done anything else, hardware wise, to regain the innovative lead it once held. They have not changed their price points for years, while PCs have become cheaper and cheaper. A serious industrial strength PC can now be bought for iMac prices. G4 prices in the PC world now take you into IBM server/ultra high end workstation type territory - multiple GHz processors, gigs of RAM, Ultra160 SCSI, redundant power supplies and the absolute fastest graphics, best sound, and biggest monitors.
So before anyone tells me to shut my *****, think about what I've written. I'd really like to see Apple regain this sort of technological lead. If they can't, they should accept and reprice their equipment accordingly.
What they shouldn't do is continue to sell computers at the same prices they used to ten years ago, without any of the technological lead they used to have. It's living in fantasy land and eventually reality is going to hit - hard. Do you really want that to happen... I know I don't.
Jul 23, 2001, 08:47 AM
"Apple makes great products, therefore I'm a Mac fan."
if this is true, then why did you write what you did about leading to the conclusion that ibm compatibles are "better"
some of the things you have included are not true-speeds, ram, prices.
apple's speeds are much faster
ram is cheap-you can get gigs of it.
and price: if you want a computer with power and efficiency like that of a mac, you will spend about the same amount with an ibm compatible. and the $999 imac is the same price as a worthless PC(slow and crashes a lot) SURE-you can go get yourself a $500 eMachine, but why in the hell would you do that??? emachines are made with the most worthless crap inside that you may as well give someone $500 to take it to the junkyard for you. and maybe most people aren't looking at prices correctlly-Best Buy (i hate that place) gives you prices like $500 for a decent hewlett-packard. but when you read the fine print it will tell you of the rebates-one for all-in-one package around $100, one for monitor ($50-$100:CRTs are getting weeded out in the PC world too) and one for your crappy internet service provider:ie MSN(i hate that too because it doesn't work well) this is a $400 rebate which will actually make you pay more for your computer in the long run ($21.95-for 3 years)when you do the math, it's $390.02 more than your original price.
you are getting RIPPED OFF
and by the way, apple makes great products, therefore i am a mac fan.