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MacBytes
Feb 13, 2006, 09:38 PM
http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif (http://www.macbytes.com)

Category: Apple Hardware
Link: 1.83GHz Core Duo MacBook Pro priced $1000 more than 1.83GHz Core Duo Dell (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20060213223853)
Description:: Apple's MacBook Pro is nearly $1000 more than a similar Dell notebook (after using a coupon) or just over $400 without coupons, according to a blog entry at ZDNet. While the debate rages, the Dell Core Duo notebook offers a larger 17-inch screen, faster graphics, and a faster optical drive.

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

Mudbug
Feb 13, 2006, 09:40 PM
ok, before the whining rants begin, I know there's a coupon involved for the dell, but it was still cheaper than the MBPro in the first place, and the specs are generally in the Dell's corner.

hmmmm.

osustudent
Feb 13, 2006, 09:43 PM
Who cares? Yes, it'd be nice if Apple's laptops were equivalent in price, or at least closer, to other competitors. Yet, Apple knows that people are willing to pay more for the quality and OS that comes when purchasing a Mac!

Capt Underpants
Feb 13, 2006, 09:44 PM
Price doesn't matter to many mac users. In their eyes, the more sleek look of the MBP and OSX is worth the extra $1000, but most PC users will easily choose the Dell. Apple is going to need to do something about this if they want to increase marketshare.

FF_productions
Feb 13, 2006, 09:45 PM
Who CARES if Dell has Low Prices???

Look, the only thing that keeps me from buying a dell is: The Operating System.

TheMasin9
Feb 13, 2006, 09:46 PM
no way i will ever buy a dell... even if its 1000 cheaper for a similar specd machine, they still run the crappiest OS known to man...

zv470
Feb 13, 2006, 09:48 PM
Dell is cheap, I think that says it all. :p

Alex Cutter
Feb 13, 2006, 09:52 PM
people are willing to pay more for the quality...
Are you referring to the iMac G5s that melted, the pre-HD PowerBooks with bad RAM slots, the line of HD PowerBooks with across the board audio/screen problems, or the current iPod class-action lawsuits?

tdhurst
Feb 13, 2006, 09:53 PM
Cause we ALL know the technical specs are what make a computer...

The OS is not important, the build quality is not important...

Christ, give it up!

AndrewMT
Feb 13, 2006, 09:54 PM
I'm holging off on buying a MacBook, b/c I'm hoping the 17" Macbook will come with a 7800 Go or better, like the dell has.

nagromme
Feb 13, 2006, 09:55 PM
Yes, Apple quality IS higher than Dell's. Large-scale surveys show that.

Apple has quality problems... and Dell has more. In fact, Apple has the highest quality in the industry for desktops, and hovers near the top for laptops.

Now... how's the software bundle on that Dell? How bright is that screen? Are the keys illuminated? Size and weight?

osustudent
Feb 13, 2006, 09:59 PM
Are you referring to the iMac G5s that melted, the pre-HD PowerBooks with bad RAM slots, the line of HD PowerBooks with across the board audio/screen problems, or the current iPod class-action lawsuits?

a little of it all ... Nothing with computers is a guarantee. If Apple made 100% perfect computers, then we'd all be talking about why bother buying anything else. Yet, when compared with a lot of other companies, Mac's tend to hold up better and longer than other manufacturers. If you want me to list the problems I've personally had, heard from friends, and other forums from other companies, let me know.

This too: (thanks nagromme)
Yes, Apple quality IS higher than Dell's. Large-scale surveys show that.

Apple has quality problems... and Dell has more. In fact, Apple has the highest quality in the industry for desktops, and hovers near the top for laptops.

Now... how's the software bundle on that Dell? How bright is that screen? Are the keys illuminated? Size and weight?

runninmac
Feb 13, 2006, 10:00 PM
Im I suppose to be surprised? Without the coupon $650 coupon its about were I thought it would be at. Apple just has always changed more, about <$400 seems about right considering you get frontrow, iSight, OS X and Apples design.

carlos700
Feb 13, 2006, 10:02 PM
Most PC people just look at specs and price and the hell with software and overall presentation. If one looks at the whole package the Apple MacBook Pro will look much better than the Dell Inspiron E1705.

I would gladly pay $1K for Mac OS X instead of Windows XP Problem Edition.

bousozoku
Feb 13, 2006, 10:06 PM
I configured one as close to the MacBook Pro as possible and came up with $2256 before a $250 rebate.

There were a few small things like Bluetooth and 667 MHz RAM that needed to be added but I also changed WinXP Media Center Edition to Professional. As far as I know, Media Center doesn't support multiple processors, something that Mac OS X does.

ibook30
Feb 13, 2006, 10:08 PM
Im I suppose to be surprised? Without the coupon $650 coupon its about were I thought it would be at. Apple just has always changed more, about <$400 seems about right considering you get frontrow, iSight, OS X and Apples design.

True- and even without all those premium features - the OS is stronger and more reliable. It's a very simple choice - once you've had the experience of the different platforms.
This leads to what carlos700 said :

Most PC people just look at specs and price and the hell with software and overall presentation. If one looks at the whole package the Apple MacBook Pro will look much better than the Dell Inspiron E1705.

I would gladly pay $1K for Mac OS X instead of Windows XP Problem Edition.

I too would gladly pay for the trouble free experience,,,, BUT those who have never tried OSX are reassured that they are getting a better value - nevermind the spyware, virus protection, and countless admin headaches that other platforms include. It is hard for some to see the value in shelling out the extra cash. I found it hard. But once I understood - I was pleased with what I had bought. For a change.

Alex Cutter
Feb 13, 2006, 10:15 PM
Nothing with computers is a guarantee.
Well, when you're payting a premium for "quality", you'd expect a company to at least acknowledge a problem that is present on its entire line of "pro" laptops, let alone come up with a fix. As it stands today, if you wanted to purchase a PowerBook today/walk out with it today, the only guarantee you'd have is that it was defective, and that there was no fix for it.

If Apple made 100% perfect computers, then we'd all be talking about why bother buying anything else.
What does this even mean?

gammamonk
Feb 13, 2006, 10:21 PM
I configured one as close to the MacBook Pro as possible and came up with $2256 before a $250 rebate.

There were a few small things like Bluetooth and 667 MHz RAM that needed to be added but I also changed WinXP Media Center Edition to Professional. As far as I know, Media Center doesn't support multiple processors, something that Mac OS X does.

Of course Media center edition supports 2 processors. It's the default on the machine. Also it includes Front-row-esque functions.

jsw
Feb 13, 2006, 10:23 PM
The MBP is over 50% more expensive for less hardware. And, yes, I count the coupon simply because, as the author pointed out, Dell coupons are almost an everyday thing.

Would I pay it? Yes, because I prefer OS X, but it annoys the hell out of me, because clearly the hardware isn't worth the premium, so you have to pay the grand for the OS.

Yes, you get a built-in iSight. Value to me? $25. Maybe. The next-gen iSights are terrible in all but the best light and are fixed-focus.

Yes, you get a remote. Value to me? Oh, $20 or so. Don't think I'd use it much - on a laptop. (Yes, you also get Front Row. Value to me? $0. It's crap software.)

Yes, you get backlit keys. Value to me? $50. They're wicked cool.

But, overall, the hardware isn't better except for design. The MBP screen is far inferior to the Dell's - and my 3 year old work Dell's 15.4" 1920x1200 screen is phenomenal, better than any of Apple's, and it's three years old. The weight is a bit off - ~8lb as opposed to ~7lb for a 17" PB.

Again, I'd pay the $1000, but only because of the OS, which is practically extortion. ;) The Dell is clearly the better deal for most people, and clearly superior hardware.

We've used Dell laptops at work for seven years (and several more at a previous employer). No problems. Excellent warranty. People like to complain about them, but they aren't bad systems. Yes, Apples are higher-rated, but I tend to feel this has something to do with the emotional connection people have to their Macs which causes them to rate them higher. My personal experiences with Apple support aren't better than mine with Dell's. Dell laptops are as durable as Apple PBs - again, my experience.

Given that you could get the Dell and and iBook (which includes virtually all of the software which comes on the MBP) for the price of an MBP, I think it's pretty clear that we're paying a very high premium.

dornoforpyros
Feb 13, 2006, 10:24 PM
Yes Mac's do cost more, however they are BETTER machines. You can buy a 6 pack of beer for $5.99 or you can buy a six pack of beer for $10.99.

Crack one of each open and take a sip.

reyesmac
Feb 13, 2006, 10:25 PM
Yes, Macs are more expensive than PC's that are built with the cheapest parts, that has been the case for a long time. But the higher price is worth it if you benefit from all the Mac only iApps , stable OS, and longer lasting hardware you get with it. It is not worth the higher cost if you do not plan on using those iApps or if all the apps you own run on PC's only. Hopefully one day Macs will be the hot thing like the iPod and they will be forced to lower prices or offer an undeniably better product. They do this now with the iPod, they offer many lower priced iPods and the high end one, even though it does not get much cheaper, always offers more than the competition. They have no choice but to do this because they are a victim of their own success. This is not the case with their computers. They will try to make as much money off of them as the market will stand. A few quarters of slow sales would adjust their attitude about that.

dr_lha
Feb 13, 2006, 10:26 PM
Take a look at this thing edge on.

http://img.dell.com/images/global/products/inspn/inspn_sv_e1705_left.jpg

Its not even in the same class as the MacBookPro, its just the usual monster Dell desktop replacement. The rear:

http://img.dell.com/images/global/products/inspn/inspn_sv_e1705_rear.jpg

Plus it has "a mobile design that starts at just 7.611 pounds". A real brute.

I have a Dell like this, and and I hate it.

Kingsly
Feb 13, 2006, 10:34 PM
Are you referring to the iMac G5s that melted, the pre-HD PowerBooks with bad RAM slots, the line of HD PowerBooks with across the board audio/screen problems, or the current iPod class-action lawsuits?

And you point is? Sure, a few macs had flaws. Nobody is perfect. On the other hand, all Dell's have flaws:
Windows XP

I am tempted to buy a Dell and call their warranty dept. demanding that they fix the defect in my machine. After hours of frustrating and fruitless tech support when the techie determines that my machine is fine I will tell him that upon powering up the machine Windows XP booted, immediately causing my computer to slow down and become buggy. I will proceed to demand full reimbursement plus extra for mental exhaustion and a light concussion suffered from coming within 10' of the Dell. I will then use the money to pay off my M(axed)acBo(out)k credit cards.

I propose a bunch of MR people form a class action lawsuit against stupid people who form class action lawsuits against their scratched nano that does not have a case...

"judge, all I did was put the iPod in my pocket with my keys and it came out scratched!!! Apple owes my three thousand dollars for a $250 iPod."
"me too!"
"and my client's hearing could have been damaged!"

jsw
Feb 13, 2006, 10:34 PM
I agree it's not as well designed, but odds are the 17" MBP will weigh within a pound of that weight and will cost twice as much. Before, you couldn't really compare Dells and Apples because the hardware was so different. Now, it's clear you're paying a huge premium for design, because clearly you're not paying it for the OS (given that an iBook - hardware and software - costs less than the difference between this Dell and the Apple 17" MBP, whose price I'd guestimate will be ~$2800).

jakemikey
Feb 13, 2006, 10:40 PM
Who cares? Yes, it'd be nice if Apple's laptops were equivalent in price, or at least closer, to other competitors. Yet, Apple knows that people are willing to pay more for the quality and OS that comes when purchasing a Mac!
For me, at least, this is becoming less and less true. Apple's UNIX underpinnings got me interested in Linux, and the more I use Linux, the more I'm finding replacements for what Mac OS X has - and it's all free...and open. Check out the videos of Novell Linux Desktop 10 and you'll see what I mean. I'm finding Apple's closed architecture to be more and more restrictive - and annoying. And I'm buying less and less Apple hardware because of exactly this issue...come on! $1000 less and better specs?! Nobody in their right mind should be defending Apple on this. A sleek enclosure and OS X does NOT cost $1000!

jsw
Feb 13, 2006, 10:40 PM
And you point is? Sure, a few macs had flaws. Nobody is perfect. On the other hand, all Dell's have flaws:
Windows XP
Look, I have a Lombard G3 PB, a 12" 1.5GHz PB, an 800MHz 17" iMac, a dual-2 Rev. A PM, a Developer Transition Kit, and a 17" Intellimac. I think it's pretty clear I buy Apple products.

That said, I use XP every day at work. Every day. And I've yet to experience any of the horror stories. Period.

XP is a good OS. I prefer OS X, mainly because of the UNIX that lies underneath it. However, XP isn't a bad OS at all. It is in ways superior to OS X. If Apple/OS X had the market share that MS/Windows has, I think you'd see similar problems and adware, etc.

It's one thing to buy Apple products because you feel they're worth the premium. I do. It's another to claim all other systems are crap. They aren't.

bousozoku
Feb 13, 2006, 10:49 PM
Of course Media center edition supports 2 processors. It's the default on the machine. Also it includes Front-row-esque functions.

Of course? WinXP Home doesn't support more than 1 processor and I understood that WinXP Media Center Edition was no more than Home Edition with some media accessibility applications. (Still, I was asking a question. :))

freiheit
Feb 13, 2006, 11:05 PM
That said, I use XP every day at work. Every day. And I've yet to experience any of the horror stories. Period.

I wish I could say the same. Windows 2000 was actually pretty nice. But moving from 2000 to XP was a major step back for me. Many things I had come to use daily in 2000 were either non-existent or hidden in XP. Many seemingly simple customizations for the user interface were likewise removed or hidden. Sure XP boots up a heck of a lot faster than 2K but in use 2K was much more pleasant (still not as nice as OS/2 Warp 4 but much easier to do multimedia with). I also cannot stand the Fisher Price user interface in XP (I don't know, maybe people in other countries won't know what Fisher Price is).

On the other hand I've used OSX 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4 and I've felt it got better, faster, and easier with each release. The user interface looks better with each release and things I've come to rely on have not disappeared or been stuffed into a sub-sub-sub menu somewhere.

Not worth $1000 more, but then again I'm not in the market for a laptop anyway. Still, I agree with what others have long said that the typical consumer looks first at price and then at specs, and $1000 difference will immediately turn the average consumer and even a lot of power users away from a MacBook Pro. Here's hoping the iBook replacement is an attractive offering at a reasonable (consumer oriented) price.

rmhop81
Feb 13, 2006, 11:06 PM
I've owned several apple machines and also almost every dell model out there. Dell is by far the best computer company I have ever purchased from. Apples are cool and all but it's like buying a LINCOLN VS. a FORD. exact same thing just smalll add ons that cost a fortune. i've only purchased my apple machines when an update occured so i wasn't paying full cost, bc it's just way too expensive. Here is something to think about when people are making fun of the dell vs. the MBP. Try running adobe products on the MBP vs. the dell lappy, and there you go. People are going to buy the dell bc more stuff is compatible with it and it's also $1,000 cheaper for the same parts (just different casing). Now until the MBP can dual boot XP and OSX, it's pretty worthless until compatible software becomes available.

take a look @ the dell i have in my sig. i got it from dell for $1,000. if apple were to make the same exact laptop, of course with a different casing and mac os x, it would cost close to $2,500 for the same rebadged samsung that the dell is. Apple was able to give reasons why they were so expensive before bc they used different parts, but now everything is the same as those "crappy PC parts" that all the mac members talk about. They need to lower there prices or they will never compete. I love apple, but the prices are overboard.

rmhop81
Feb 13, 2006, 11:08 PM
Of course? WinXP Home doesn't support more than 1 processor and I understood that WinXP Media Center Edition was no more than Home Edition with some media accessibility applications. (Still, I was asking a question. :))

MCE is XP PRO with add-ons, not home edition with add-ons. so it does support 2 processors

Kingsly
Feb 13, 2006, 11:10 PM
Look, I have a Lombard G3 PB, a 12" 1.5GHz PB, an 800MHz 17" iMac, a dual-2 Rev. A PM, a Developer Transition Kit, and a 17" Intellimac. I think it's pretty clear I buy Apple products.

That said, I use XP every day at work. Every day. And I've yet to experience any of the horror stories. Period.

XP is a good OS. I prefer OS X, mainly because of the UNIX that lies underneath it. However, XP isn't a bad OS at all. It is in ways superior to OS X. If Apple/OS X had the market share that MS/Windows has, I think you'd see similar problems and adware, etc.

It's one thing to buy Apple products because you feel they're worth the premium. I do. It's another to claim all other systems are crap. They aren't.

I also use XP quite often (I am the neighborhood tech support guy, still cant figure out how I got that title) and, being very familiar with the workings of the OS I find OSX to be far superior in every way.

A) The nature of OSX prevents it from a sizable portion of (all?) viruses. Not market share. OSX demands that you have admin privileges to do anything. It asks for a password for any installer. IMO it dishes out system level privileges very sparingly- and usually only with the user's permission. XP pretty much has a lawn sign up begging malicious software to come and install itself. Sometimes XP's way of doing things can be useful... if a piece of software asks for permission to do/change something XP usually grants it. Unfortunately hackers take advantage of that.

B) Windows explorer (or whatever they call their finder) is crap. I was looking for a system file once and typed the path into the path bar, hit return, ended up looking at an MSN HTML search for the path RENDERED IN THE FINDER/WHATEVER window. Microsoft when I want to look on the internet I will run firefox! Not Finder/explorer!!!

C) Windows XP looks like, how can I put this gently, the contents of my stomach after eating corn and broccoli. I know Vista (hows that for an Synonym? Windows Vista?! Vista is defined as An avenue or other passage affording such a view. Isn't that a window?) will change all of that (by blatantly copying OSX, by the way) On that note the fonts look evil. Fonts are pretty in OSX. How many people get eyestrain from macs, Windows?

D) Windows wants to be in your face all of the time. There are more popups on windows than the internet. Mac wants to be there when you need it. Otherwise it leaves you in peace.

E) There is almost no separation between user accounts. Yes, I have tried.

F) OSX works the way our brains work (or the way we wish our brains would work). XP works like a pregnant mountain goat with no legs trying to climb a glacier.

G) I can think of more, but my fingers are tired and I don't like getting myself so worked up, I am liable to start making irrational claims (the mountain goat thing was just the beginning)

You are right, the MacBook Pro is a lot more expensive. I wish Apple would drop the price a little, but their hardware is borderline custom made. The Dell uses off the shelf components packed into whatever black and silver plastic enclosure fit. IMO the Mac is worth every penny.

Josh
Feb 13, 2006, 11:11 PM
Funny thing, this thread.

The epitome of zealotry at its finest.

I knew, the day Apple announced to go Intel, there would come a time when Apple and a competitor would be selling identical hardware, only the Apple version would be way more - yet people (read: Apple zealots) would still claim the other hardware (as if it were different) was not as good.

Only, this time, the competitors hardware is more powerful and less expensive to boot.

Paying $1000 more to run a $129 OS.

Noo...Apple's not monopolizing their customers, forcing them into buying a product....no way!

*deeeep, belly-hurting, laughter*

AJ Muni
Feb 13, 2006, 11:16 PM
Apple has always managed to charge a premium for their hardware because of superior branding and a diehard fan base.

Very true...and PROUD OF IT!

Spock
Feb 13, 2006, 11:24 PM
Paying $1000 more to run a $129 OS.

Noo...Apple's not monopolizing their customers, forcing them into buying a product....no way!


Well I dont see the Express PC Card, backlit keyboard, iSight, Optical in/out dual link DVi or Magsafe and this thing sure as heck is not 1 inch thin or anything like iLife '06

QCassidy352
Feb 13, 2006, 11:25 PM
The MBP screen is far inferior to the Dell's - and my 3 year old work Dell's 15.4" 1920x1200 screen is phenomenal, better than any of Apple's, and it's three years old.

wait, your 3 year old dell has a better screen than the MBP? Care to elaborate? I think the MBP uses the same screen as the intel imacs - 250 c/m2 brightness and 500:1 contrast on the 17". A 3 year old dell can do better than that? If so, i'll be impressed.

Look, at the end of the day, it's a free market. If you think the dell is so great, buy it over the MBP. Personally, I'd rather spend the extra money for something that's nice to look at, easy to carry, has better reliability, and comes with great bundled software and the OS that I want to use.

We all (most of us) use macs and there's a reason why. Whatever your reason, figure out how much it's worth to you, and if, on balance, the advantages of macs aren't worth the extra money to you then buy the dell and enjoy it. But until you do, stop whining about the cost because this is a free market and enough people are choosing apple to justify them charging what they do.

Kingsly
Feb 13, 2006, 11:26 PM
Funny thing, this thread.

The epitome of zealotry at its finest.

Paying $1000 more to run a $129 OS.


No you are absolutely correct.
Read: The hardware is the same.
The OS is not.
(Please dont flame me for the next comment, Its rather irrelevant but I thought "why not")

The Dell is not pretty. In a country where there are more shopping malls than high schools I think I can safely bet that fashion is a big concern. Apple knows what its doing with the iPod and they are continuing with their computers. What teen (the largest buying force in the country) or, for that matter, any adult with taste, woundn't choose an iMac over a dull grey box that makes noise? And it has media functions and a built in camera to boot? I want one! If and when Apple drops the prices to a more believable level (MacBook, circa $999) and everything is UB or Apple comes out with their own version of Darwine, Microsoft will have to go into the Xbox business full time.

Photorun
Feb 13, 2006, 11:26 PM
Are you referring to the iMac G5s that melted, the pre-HD PowerBooks with bad RAM slots, the line of HD PowerBooks with across the board audio/screen problems, or the current iPod class-action lawsuits?

How about the 1 in 5 DOA Dulls we get at the college I work, or their 1 in 4 downtime for Windoze viruses and other "fun" things related to Dull's cheap quality and it's sh***y OS?!? We have entire labs of eMacs, which not a single one came in defective, some of which unless we're doing a power down of the room, haven't ever crashed even with student use/abuse. Same with some iMac lamp designed onces, we don't have many iMac G5s but the ones we do have worked fine... did I mention the 1 in 5 DOA Dulls?

Stick that up your peecee/Dull apologist arse!

Photorun
Feb 13, 2006, 11:30 PM
Well I dont see the Express PC Card, backlit keyboard, iSight, Optical in/out dual link DVi or Magsafe and this thing sure as heck is not 1 inch thin or anything like iLife '06

You left out cool aluminum frame that isn't a chunk of third world plastic, design gaps and lousy temperance around the casing, and the other atrocities that is Dull's "design ethic" if you could even call it that. Clearly some people on these forums like the Chevy Corsica... a piece of crap GM car FUGLY as anything with cheap plastics and ergonomics even Satan wouldn't wish on anyone, other's here prefer cars built like a Lexus, or Honda, or fine German auto.

Kingsly
Feb 13, 2006, 11:31 PM
How about the 1 in 5 DOA Dulls we get at the college I work, or their 1 in 4 downtime for Windoze viruses and other "fun" things related to Dull's cheap quality and it's sh***y OS?!? We have entire labs of eMacs, which not a single one came in defective, some of which unless we're doing a power down of the room, haven't ever crashed even with student use/abuse. Same with some iMac lamp designed onces, we don't have many iMac G5s but the ones we do have worked fine...


Exactly the same @ my school. We have entire rooms with 30+ G5's and not a single one is down. The PC labs are hell.

sjk
Feb 13, 2006, 11:37 PM
Some of this thread reminds me of:

We work hard so we can have nice things (http://fraserspeirs.livejournal.com/1003876.html)

Macs have niceness that Dells lack.

Stridder44
Feb 13, 2006, 11:39 PM
I can understand why the MBP is more....but $1000 more is bit much for those few extra features.

AlbinoPigeon
Feb 13, 2006, 11:50 PM
I think people need to stop using OS X and iLife as justification for a $1000 premium. The fact that OSX is more stable or whatever is besides the point. That doesn't contribute to the cost of the unit. If the dell didnt have an OS at all, then fine, you could say "hey wait! the MBP has OSX".

That said however, what you can point to is the presision built enclosure and the top quality screen. The reason why it costs $1000 more (apart from the high apple markup we all know is there) is the fact that the enclosure costs way more to manufacture. Making the same computer 50% thinner (or whatever it is) costs money. Throwing in a cinema-bright screen costs money. Making it come with a built in camera and a magnetic power cable and drop sensing HD, all in a 1" thin enclosure COSTS MONEY.

But PLEASE, do not say OSX and iLife is worth it. Maybe it is for you, but it is not a contributing factor to why the unit price is $1000 more.

jer2eydevil88
Feb 13, 2006, 11:53 PM
Thanks Dell for saving me from a horrible fate of using my PC instead of reformatting it...


to me it'd cost $2,900 on the dell site without those insanely good coupons... but that dell has a built in subwoofer so you can use it to dj without even buying an AMP....

hell its nearly as heavy as an amp

starflyer
Feb 13, 2006, 11:54 PM
OSX, Garage Band, iPhoto, iMovie HD, iDVD, iChatAV, Front Row, No Viruses, Sudden Motion Sensor, 1" thick, MagSafe, ExpressCard/34, Cinima Display Brightness, Backlit Keyboard, Optical Digital Audio, iSight....=$1000 difference(if you can find the coupon)?

I think so


dtm

bbyrdhouse
Feb 14, 2006, 12:01 AM
For me, at least, this is becoming less and less true. Apple's UNIX underpinnings got me interested in Linux, and the more I use Linux, the more I'm finding replacements for what Mac OS X has - and it's all free...and open. Check out the videos of Novell Linux Desktop 10 and you'll see what I mean. I'm finding Apple's closed architecture to be more and more restrictive - and annoying. And I'm buying less and less Apple hardware because of exactly this issue...come on! $1000 less and better specs?! Nobody in their right mind should be defending Apple on this. A sleek enclosure and OS X does NOT cost $1000!

Here, Here!

When will people get it? People that use PC's are already used to an OS that has to be "babied" with anti-virus, anti trojan, etc...
They are already used to all of the ideosynchrosies of Windows. They do not really know how or why OS X is better. Even if they can try one out at Comp USA first. All they see is that "the icons look different" and "wheres the start button" and "whats that bar along the top" and "how come the "X" is on the left side of the window instead of the right" and "how come I have to hit "alt Q" to close a program". I have had many people tell me that Windows was alot easier to use than OS X and that they could never learn how to use a Mac. But the only reason is because they are used to Windows and all of it's failures.
So what is a deal breaker for them? Well, a thousand dollars, is certainly a deal breaker for these people.

But, and i mean BUT... The MacBook Pro will not be the laptop that Apple will advertise to the masses. That will be the MacBook (iBook replacement). This will be the laptop that MUST be at least comparable if not better in price. Thats were Apple has their best shot to increase market share.

Just my opinion.

A is jump
Feb 14, 2006, 12:09 AM
The Dell obviously has better specs, not cosmetically though.
I cant speak for laptops, but open any dell desktop, and view the mess inside. open a powermac G5 and admire the view. apple doesnt just throw their computers together. They obsess over silly details that dell obviously overlooks.
that is something I can get behind. It feels good to own something that when I open it up, looks like art. I feel the same way about everything I purchase. its a business ethic that most companies have abandoned. call it cut throat capitalism, cheaper faster better... but at what price?


Is apple charging a premium for their laptops? Yes.
will I still buy one? yes. why? because i prefer an apple to any PC.

Josh
Feb 14, 2006, 12:11 AM
But, and i mean BUT... The MacBook Pro will not be the laptop that Apple will advertise to the masses. That will be the MacBook (iBook replacement). This will be the laptop that MUST be at least comparable if not better in price. Thats were Apple has their best shot to increase market share.

Just my opinion.

So let me get this straight...

The MacBook Pro, Apple's top of the line notebook, is less powerful than the Dell, but more expensive.

And you're saying that the MacBook, the iBook's replacement, which is even less powerful than the MacBook Pro, therefore much less powerful than this Dell, should be the one at, or just slightly above, the price of this Dell?

That logic is as backwards as can be.

shrimpdesign
Feb 14, 2006, 12:11 AM
I like how everyone says that it's 1000 for OS X. It's not.

You forgot iLife, you forgot Express slot, you forgot the iSight, you forgot the weight, you forgot Magsafe, you forgot no pre-installed adware and crap, you forgot backlight keyboard, you forgot the sensor that turns off the MBP's hard drive if you drop it, you forgot DVI out, you forgot IR remote (not just for Front Row, mind you, it works in almost any iLife app), you forgot everything that makes Apple nice and Dell just another PC company.

And aren't Lithium-polymer batteries better than the Lithium Ion that the Dell has? I guess they don't have the same parts, go figure.

And the RAM is faster, Dell doesn't give an upgrade option for 667Mhz.

Not to mention the confusing interface, and I'm not talking about the OS. The actual laptop has an interface. Power buttons, volume buttons, brightness etc. They look nice and integrated on a MBP, but unorganized and confusing on the Dell. Same goes for the ports.



I checked Dell's website. It's $2,508 for the equivalent to the 2,499 MBP. With the coupon, you're really only paying about 650 for all those features I listed. Sounds like a better deal to me.

docpsycho
Feb 14, 2006, 12:26 AM
based onth the 1.83 duo.....

Dell & apple same
1Gb ram 677Mhz FSB
100 GB 7200 sata drive
wireless a/g cards
bluetooth

differences

the dvd drive
graphic chip (moreless does the same)
an screen size
2544 promo 2774(reg price) for dell
MB PRO 2599 reg student 2389

not that much diff now when it matches up in specs

Edit!!!!!! forgot the built in cam. the no "fubar" cord, ilife 06' all the extras that the apple comes with. ( sdorry microsloth folks but win movie maker cannot even begin to compare to i movie

Some_Big_Spoon
Feb 14, 2006, 12:28 AM
Hi, you must be new here.

Now that we have a 1 to 1 in hardware, you'll begin to see what people like me have been complaining about for decades, namely, that Apple charges far more than anyone else. There's ways to justify it, but it's just plain true.

Tyler.Schmaltz
Feb 14, 2006, 12:37 AM
Apple kicks dells butt nuff said!

mac user since 1990 Never had a single problem ever

Windows user for 1 week and had more problems than i can count and that aint counting the countless viruses and spyware/adware.
cant even surf the internet on a windows without having huge problems


I'd gladly pay 1000 or even 2000 more just to get a Apple thats how good there computers are!

All my college friends have brand new dell laptops and they used my very old and used/abused ibook 700mhz G3! and after 10 minutes of use they offered to switch comps right on the spot!!! and ur telling me dells are better?i think not

docpsycho
Feb 14, 2006, 12:38 AM
Hi, you must be new here.



nope, a long time lurker....... my 1st apple product was green screen and 64k was an option!
2nd apple had the 64k + another 64K to make 128K and had a 16 color pure digital video card 3.5 floppy still did not exist!

MacFan782040
Feb 14, 2006, 12:47 AM
Seriously guys... fashion is an issue in this country.

"Why the hell would somebody pay $1000 more for a MacBook Pro than a Dell?"

...is like saying...

Why would somebody spend $95 at Abercrombie and Fitch for a girls skirt that's about 5 inches in length of denim? Or a T-Shirt for $30 when they can easily get a T-Shirt at Target for $10. But people do... :)

redAPPLE
Feb 14, 2006, 01:02 AM
Of course Media center edition supports 2 processors. It's the default on the machine. Also it includes Front-row-esque functions.

so they copied Apple again? i didn't know of these "front-row-esque functions".

NNO-Stephen
Feb 14, 2006, 01:13 AM
sped them up with 100GB 7200 RPM HDs. Dell charges more than 400 bucks to upgrade to that! 400 dollars!

to quote Sawyer from LOST: "It's all in the details"

Mitthrawnuruodo
Feb 14, 2006, 01:16 AM
Funny thing, this thread.

The epitome of zealotry at its finest.

[...]

*deeeep, belly-hurting, laughter*Which of the two cars in the comparisment attached would you get...? Which do you think is the better car...? Which is the sexiest car...? Which do you think is the highest quality...?

redAPPLE
Feb 14, 2006, 01:23 AM
A sleek enclosure and OS X does NOT cost $1000!

the beatles (also somehow an "apple" :D) once wrote "can't buy me love". imo, Apple Computer is selling love. and people buy it. and enjoy it.

and people buy pretty stuff to look pretty and sexy and all that. some people buy Apple to look sexy and pretty. ;)

Dominatus
Feb 14, 2006, 01:41 AM
so they copied Apple again? i didn't know of these "front-row-esque functions".

Is this a joke? Windows Media Center was been out for literally years before Front Row...

shrimpdesign
Feb 14, 2006, 01:42 AM
Seriously guys... fashion is an issue in this country.

"Why the hell would somebody pay $1000 more for a MacBook Pro than a Dell?"

...is like saying...

Why would somebody spend $95 at Abercrombie and Fitch for a girls skirt that's about 5 inches in length of denim? Or a T-Shirt for $30 when they can easily get a T-Shirt at Target for $10. But people do... :)
No it's not. Clothes are fashion. Computers are tools and/or media centers these days. With clothes, higher quality doesn't really matter. With computers, it's used to make something and perform certain tasks. Big difference.

The MacBook Pro has different features, higher quality and better parts, and better industrial design. Maybe the reason Dell can sell their computers so cheap is because they get money from bundling "free trials" and adware with their computers.

And people, get the fact straight, it's more like $650 difference, not 1000. Don't be a sheep and follow the crowd.

docpsycho
Feb 14, 2006, 01:56 AM
an update.... did a little mo' number crunching again....

and the price winner is gateway!!!
little spreadsheet work (http://homepage.mac.com/brianhagen/prices.htm)

kugino
Feb 14, 2006, 01:58 AM
i like apple products. i don't like dell and windows products. how does that make me a zealot? because i choose to use a machine that someone says costs $1000 more than a similar machine?

look, to me it's like flying economy vs. first class. we're in the same plane and we're going to the same destination. my first class experience is just better - better food, free booze, a choice of movies, more space. yeah, you paid much less for your ticket...but your experience probably wasn't as good as mine.

macs and dells pretty much do the same things - surfing the web, word processing, watching movies, running applications, etc. the mac experience is just that much better...and i gladly pay extra to have a better experience. since i use my computer for hours every day, it's a small price to pay to enjoy working on a mac. if that makes me a zealot, a zealot i am.

The Man
Feb 14, 2006, 02:15 AM
In this new society of cheap, things can't get low enough. If a DVD player costs more than $50, it is deemed expensive. Not so long ago, people were willing to pay a few hundred dollars. So when there are companies that do sell for a bit more, they instantly get attacked solely on the grounds of price. In this day and age, price is the highest form of value. People don't care what they buy with it. People simply want more for less, and also want to have it all. We are at the pinnacle of consumerism where price is everything and everything else be damned! I find it troublesome that merits and value are things which are simply crushed for the sake of price every time.

The thing is that with these prices, companies make very little money with selling their products. They need to sell extreme volume. We've seen quite a few companies go bankrupt or merge because they simply couldn't compete on price. Apple sticks to its own goals and is alive in 2006! Didn't people say Apple would go bankrupt soon? Going with the pricegame would destroy Apple on many levels. They wouldn't be able to put out nice designs. They would be selling Dull boxes instead. There is more to computers than just specs, I would say - although the society of cheap would, once again, disagree. Secondly, going into the price game would lower profit margins while not (substantially) more people would necessarily buy an Apple over a PC. Apple can exist, for now, with selling products to a small group of people and be profitable. It's like people think that you need volume to not go bunkrupt!

To me, it also seems that some people dislike Apple because they don't go for the masses, that they willingly stay a company for an "elite." High volume has become synonomous with "good company." This is why I think people have this attitude that they simply don't understand what drives Apple.

redAPPLE
Feb 14, 2006, 03:04 AM
Is this a joke? Windows Media Center was been out for literally years before Front Row...

no not a joke. i didn't care for microsoft. i didn't care for windows media center. well i still don't. but i didn't know that apple copied the front row interface.

edit: and no. i plan to look at the windows media center interface, thank you. it must look like poop.

shrimpdesign
Feb 14, 2006, 03:16 AM
but i didn't know that apple copied the front row interface.
They didn't. From what I've heard, Media Center Edition is just insanely complicated compared to Front Row. True, you don't have as many options with Front Row, but a complicated Microsoft interface isn't a good answer either.

angelneo
Feb 14, 2006, 03:18 AM
Actually, if I were to buy a PC laptop, I would choose a thinkpad over Dell. Wait, I did just bought a thinkpad over dell a couple of months ago. (I still have my powerbook though)

SpaceMagic
Feb 14, 2006, 03:46 AM
There are valid points being made on both sides here. For me, Apple charging a whole $1000 premium bites the bullet. I do love macs, but how can they expect to increase market share this way? Yes, the MBP are really sleek and yes i'd probably buy one over a dell but still, i'd be bitter.

My friend just bought an Acer Aspire notebook (Acer are huge in europe at moment). It's such a good laptop and cost £709. Dual gigabit ethernet ports, WiFi G, 100GB Hard disk, etc.. can't go wrong really. And as someone said, Apple do not have the best screens. I've seen cheapest dells with brighter screens and higher res than any of Apple's line up, without quality degradation.

solvs
Feb 14, 2006, 03:59 AM
As usual, the devil is in the details. ;)

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/02/13/pricecomparison/index.php

kerpow
Feb 14, 2006, 04:45 AM
Apple have been put in a difficult poistion by Intel as far as the new processors are concerned. If the Solo Core had been released before the Duo we wouldn't be having this conversation. They'd be nice new shiny Mac Books costing around $700 and everyone would be saying you don't need to pay a fortune to have a Mac.

Unfortunately the Duos came first which Apple deemed more suitable for a Pro line. In doing so they have made loyal Apple professional users happy but have done nothing to attract new users.

If I had to choose between the Dell and the Mac Book Pro I'd take the Dell, install a ripped version of OSX and go on holiday with the remaining $1000 :) But then that Dell doesn't do anything than my current PB does anyway.

ezekielrage_99
Feb 14, 2006, 04:53 AM
As usual, the devil is in the details. ;)

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/02/13/pricecomparison/index.php

Great article, and it is very true how at a glance the Dell does seem better in value hardware vs. hardware, but when you get to the nuts'n'bolts the Apple and Dell are still miles a part. But rememeber the Macbook Pro is marketed at the Pro market, the Dell seems more like the high end home user (gamer).

Whatever you want to say the Apple still holds the benchmark for what a premium product should offers. I have owned both Dell and Apples hands down the Apple always isthe better build product.

jesaja
Feb 14, 2006, 05:05 AM
Hei all!

From the quality standpoint - I'm not sure about that. I've got a last gen Powerbook 15", and it has a hell lot of problems: It has the 'warping', the scanlines, the audio stutter, I've had to exchange the battery and the install DVD, and even the second one has the same problems the first had (I've spent 60 € on apple support (phone) now and they couldn't help me, the thing spits out each dvd/cd, especially burnable ones, four or five times before it accepts it....
A lot of hassles. I'm really disappointed with that. And it's not even fast.

BUT: I like the intelligent features the macs have over pc's. And these things (like the magnetic power adaptor) don't only cost to produce them - they cost even more to invent.
Unlike Dell & Co I'm sure apple spends a whole lot money on designers and engineers to come up with solutions for problems you perhaps didn't even think about before.
Or to make the sleek, thin, lightweight notebooks like the MBPs...
Human resources cost a lot of money, and I think that makes the most of these "1000 $" that the mbp costs more. And it's justified - if it's worth that premium price for you is everyone's one choice, I think.

jojo

EDIT: PS: And I'm sure MAC OS costs apple more than the 129 s.th. $ that you pay for it. Developing it in such a pace requires also a lot of human resources. they just don't want to let the updating consumer pay the premium price again... - I think.

bbyrdhouse
Feb 14, 2006, 05:16 AM
So let me get this straight...

The MacBook Pro, Apple's top of the line notebook, is less powerful than the Dell, but more expensive.

And you're saying that the MacBook, the iBook's replacement, which is even less powerful than the MacBook Pro, therefore much less powerful than this Dell, should be the one at, or just slightly above, the price of this Dell?

That logic is as backwards as can be.

No, No, No, you mis-undertand me. I am saying that we need not get up in arms over this price difference between these two laptops. Because the general public, mostly driven by price, will see the price tag and assume that for there to be such a huge difference in price that there HAS to be something that they just don't see.

But if Apple releases the MacBook (iBook replacement) at say $899 - $1,199, then that Laptop will be the one that the general public willbe drawn to.

I thiink that in the minds of most folks they will see the "Pro" and realize they just need the "Consumer" or reguler version.

Now, I am not saying that this logic is correct or incorrect, I am just making an observation based on comments I have heard PC users make concerning Apples products.

Don't you agree that as a Mac user that sometimes we just assume that everyone should be as "smart" us and should just see what to us is obvious. But I know that I forget alot of times that the general public is so motivated by the bottom line that it ALWAYS is the deal breaker for them and quality, style, and security rarely come into play in their decision making process.

The Man
Feb 14, 2006, 05:21 AM
And why is it that we constantly have to compare an Apple to a Dell? Can't we do comparisons between Apple Mac Book Pro and an IBM (Lenovo) ThinkPad or Sony Vaio? How about HP? Or are HP and Dell somewhat the same? I have no idea about this, because I'm not really a PC shopper. But clearly Apple is not aiming at the mass market that Dell is aiming at but more at the niche market IBM and Sony are aiming at - although now that Lenovo has taken over, that will change too, I guess.

cube
Feb 14, 2006, 05:34 AM
With Intel, "Macs" are just a PC with a good OS.
I've always found PowerBook overpriced, and now it is more so.
I would undoubtedly get a reasonably priced PC and put OpenSolaris (or even Linux or BSD) if I could get the applications and drivers one can get for OSX.

And to prove you that I'm not cheap, if I could get that software for Solaris, I would even gladly spend $5000 on an entry-level SPARC laptop just not to have x86 inside! [Actually, since 2004 there are SPARC laptops for less than $2000, so now I would only pay $5000 for an 1.2 GHz UltraSPARC IIIi laptop, and it should have DVD burner and FireWire]

Passante
Feb 14, 2006, 05:40 AM
Price per pound is cheaper too. Boy did Dell spank Apple with this laptop:D

thegreatluke
Feb 14, 2006, 05:41 AM
The Dell coupon is now $250 rather than $650. Can anyone say "bait and switch?"

These kinds of arguments will always happen until either the end of time or they figure out that the little extras are what justify Apple's premium and then some.

On the Dell model, there's no supernice display, Bluetooth, illuminated keyboard, drop protection on the hard drive, videocam, IR receiver, remote, slot-loading drive, supersleek body, low weight (the Dell is 7.6 pounds), 667 MHz RAM, 1 GB RAM, 100 GB HDD, wireless 802.11a/b support, 256 MB non-integrated graphics card, DVI-out, Firewire 400, MagSafe-like connector or productivity suite. That's 19 things the Dell doesn't have that the MacBook Pro do. And I didn't even mention the fact that Dell ships all of their computers with so much crapware on them one will never see his or her computer reach its full potential... ever.

After we try to match the perks on the MacBook Pro, the price comes to... $2,359 (I used Office basic productivity suite, even though that's crap). And we didn't even get half of the things. We're still missing a videocam, IR receiver, drop protection on the harddrive, Bluetooth, illuminated keyboard, slot-loading drive, supersleek body, low weight (the Dell's probably pushing 9 pounds now), 802.11b support, DVI-out, Firewire 400, MagSafe-like connector and full productivity suite (iLife could eat Office basic edition for breakfast). A Windows version of iLife would cost thousands of dollars and these things make up for the missing $141 and then some.

Another factor people don't think about is hardware quality. Dell cuts corners so much it's funny. My sister's Inspiron died after eight months of having it. We had bought a 3-year warranty and they "lost" it... then they said it was their problem and they wouldn't fix it even though it just broke out of the blue.

BakedBeans
Feb 14, 2006, 05:49 AM
Anyone with a mind can see that the Dell is far more expensive than the Apple.

I was about to go into a rant and list every item that is missing and how much it would cost to bring it up to the Apple product but I can't. There is no way to fit the dell internals into a new case (If you could buy one) , you would have to buy a new display too, new HD, new Video card (Integrated graphics... are you kidding) - how can you make the dell have an integrated isight (which is great for business conferencing, not just photobooth silliness)

Apple's machine is much much better value than dells. The OS alone saves me a huge amount of time (which is money)

piterpan
Feb 14, 2006, 06:46 AM
It´s a RIP OFF!!!

APPLE, lower your prices! **"?"##!!

Stella
Feb 14, 2006, 06:46 AM
I'd love to spend the Dell pricing on the MacBook Pro. Unfortunately I'm not going to spend the Mac pricing.

As some one said "who cares"? Well, I'm glad they don't mind paying premium - which, buying Apple really is.

That Dell has better specs compared to the Mac, over all. Better DVD player, better graphics card. Its a shame people just can't see it and make excuses. $1000 does not warrant OSX and iLife. The Mac looks better, but that is just cosmetics. It remains to be seen whether the Mac is really 'better quality', personally, I doubt it. More like, on par.

Yes, it has windows.. but so what. Yes, there are viruses etc but at the end of the day, that is manageable and really doesn't cause much problem. The affects of viruses et al is over blown and exaggerated. (I've had a windows machine for longer than a Mac, and having a virus etc has NEVER caused me any down time. ).

At the same price, I'd rather than a Mac, but I don't want to pay too high premium. ( That said, Apple's desktops are competitive, but the laptops are less so - especially before Intel - G4s just stank cats turd - in the last few years).

Josh
Feb 14, 2006, 07:10 AM
Which of the two cars in the comparisment attached would you get...? Which do you think is the better car...? Which is the sexiest car...? Which do you think is the highest quality...?

Now you're going off on a tangent.

If the two cars were sharing the same hardware (parts/engine/etc), then you'd have a point - but since they don't, it's a completely useless comparison.

Saab is using GM "hardware" where as Hyundai usually uses Diamler-Chrysler "hardware."

That being said, I'd pick Hyundai - not only were they rated by customers much higher than Saab, the only company that beat them in reliability and customer satisfaction was Lexus.

;)

Stella
Feb 14, 2006, 07:16 AM
People don't seem to realise something about integrated graphics:

Integrated graphics are not always bad. Most are, yes. However, some implementations have good graphics chip on them. Integrated graphics card aren't automatically crap.

When it comes to webcam - your choice on OSX is pretty poor. iChat is about the only good webcam functionality - but thats OSX -> OSX only.

Others have video only, no audio. Fat of lot good that is... Mercury, Yahoo - webcam only, no video - and crap frame rates, Yahoo - video only. aMSN has audio ( IIRC), but again, poor video quality.

Joys!!!! Skype 2 will arrive in Q2 for OSX.



Anyone with a mind can see that the Dell is far more expensive than the Apple.

I was about to go into a rant and list every item that is missing and how much it would cost to bring it up to the Apple product but I can't. There is no way to fit the dell internals into a new case (If you could buy one) , you would have to buy a new display too, new HD, new Video card (Integrated graphics... are you kidding) - how can you make the dell have an integrated isight (which is great for business conferencing, not just photobooth silliness)

Apple's machine is much much better value than dells. The OS alone saves me a huge amount of time (which is money)

Lancetx
Feb 14, 2006, 07:19 AM
The Dell coupon is now $250 rather than $650. Can anyone say "bait and switch?"


Plus you can get $150 off on the MacBook Pro if you buy it from Amazon. Looks like that so called $1,000 gap has closed by more than half already. :rolleyes:

Regardless of price, I would certainly pay the extra for the MacBook Pro if it were me, but thankfully we have choices out there...

EDIT: Now with the upgrades this morning, a comparable 1.83 Core Duo MacBook Pro is now the same price or even cheaper... :p

ipacmm
Feb 14, 2006, 07:45 AM
Well now with the new MBP's out it isn't that far off of Dell's pricing.

BakedBeans
Feb 14, 2006, 07:49 AM
This article is now rubbish - totally confuses the models - the one with the massive rebate and dvd burner option etc was more - ive linked it below

DELL (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=ie1705dow1&s=dhs) v APPLE (apple.com)

Price

$1900 - DELL
$2000 - APPLE



Display

17 inch Wide Screen XGA+ Display - DELL
15.4-inch TFT display with 1440x900 resolution - APPLE

Apple's display is MUCH better, its as bright as a cinema display -this makes it truly usable as a pro monitor - the dell is far from a pro panel.

Cost of upgrade for DELL to match APPLE = $149 - but it still wont be as bright.

Processor

Core Duo 1.83GHz - DELL
Core Duo 1.83GHz - APPLE

Cost of upgrade for DELL to match APPLE = $0

]Memory

1gb533mhz DDR2 RAM - DELL
1gb 667mhz DDR2 RAM - APPLE

Faster speed RAM from apple

cost to upgrade the DELL to match APPLE = you can't

Hardrive

80GB 5400rpm drive - DELL
100GB 5400rpm drive - APPLE

cost of upgrade for dell to match apple = $50

optical drive

8 times dvd burner - DELL
4 times dvd burner - APPLE

Cost to bring apple to match the dell - you cannot. I would say that this isnt a massive thing but a slip by apple. I dont burn many DVDs and i certainly dont do it on a laptop.

It could be more of a problem to others but will drain the battery life even more

Battery

Apple has a better battery, that will last longer (twice as much)

rough estimate for upgrade (upgrade battery and an additional battery) = $228


Operating System

Media center - Dell
Mac os x tiger - APPLE

Mac OS X is streets ahead of windows XP, they are not even in the same league. OS X is by far advanced in terms or security and features - much much much better - vista is more of a match for OS X - wait until 2007 and review it.

You cannot buy OS X for the windows PC - but i would pay A LOT for the privileges of mac os x. i will just add the charges of $100 dollars - tigers price. Although it should be around $50k as thats how much it saves me a year ;)

Cost to upgrade = $100

SOFTWARE

Mac has an awesome iLife suite that is awesome, dell doesnt.. simple.

i will charge the ilife price although you cant run it on windows

cost = $79

Rosetta

A big advantage with the dell is that you wont have to se rosetta AT ALL for the next 6 months

lets say $100.



Excuse the really bad english in this - its totally scatty - hope pseudobrit doesnt see it :p

Its obvious that the mac is much better - and cheaper if it was comparable. This doesnt even account for the design of it - the apple is stunning, so so so much better than the plastic, MASSIVE DELL is.

JUST In THIS SECOND - MBP IS NOW SHIPPING WITH THE 2.16 chip

SiliconAddict
Feb 14, 2006, 07:56 AM
Are you referring to the iMac G5s that melted, the pre-HD PowerBooks with bad RAM slots, the line of HD PowerBooks with across the board audio/screen problems, or the current iPod class-action lawsuits?


Yah claiming Apple quality is like claiming that OS X never crashes. It doesn't jiv with reality. Lets be honest here. We are paying for three things. The OS, the style of the laptop, and the overall integration of the two. That is all. at best Apple's quality is only slightly better then everyone else's. If nothing else I do believe they use better quality hardware. As someone who deals with Dell repairs day in and day out along with deployment I see the kind of crap that goes on inside of a Dell. It's not pretty which is why I will NEVER touch a Dell ever again in my lifetime. 5 years ago I would have had no problems owning a Latitude. Today? Not a chance in heck.

The Man
Feb 14, 2006, 09:26 AM
Yah claiming Apple quality is like claiming that OS X never crashes. It doesn't jiv with reality. Lets be honest here. We are paying for three things. The OS, the style of the laptop, and the overall integration of the two. That is all. at best Apple's quality is only slightly better then everyone else's. If nothing else I do believe they use better quality hardware. As someone who deals with Dell repairs day in and day out along with deployment I see the kind of crap that goes on inside of a Dell. It's not pretty which is why I will NEVER touch a Dell ever again in my lifetime. 5 years ago I would have had no problems owning a Latitude. Today? Not a chance in heck.

I agree with you why we buy a Mac. It's the OS, the style and the integration. I've owned quite a few Macs, and while not one has ever died on me, build quality has not always been what I like it to be - for the price we pay, I mean. But I will keep on paying the price for the OS, style and integration.

For all the other people who don't go for OS, style and integration, no rhetoric will ever convince them to go Mac. The only rhetoric they know is price.

The whole Mac - PC thing is getting very tiresome. Hardened PC users trying to convince Mac users that they are stupid, Mac people trying to convince PC fanatics that they see it the wrong way. Just quit doing stuff like this. We Mac users have to stop doing this. Instead of putting all our efforts into these debates, we can better put our efforts showing willing people what the Mac platform is like, and showing them what the Mac community can mean to them when they are having trouble. Don't put your efforts in trying to convince PC fanatics. Don't fuel the debate. Don't make us look like zealots. Stop saying that Windows is bad, because you can't convince these fanatics! They will just say that the Mac isn't the best either. And you know what? They would be right, because there's always something to complain about!

I know that being a Mac user isn't easy. I've been one since 1994, and there's always been sneers from PC users all around me. What I try to avoid is becoming the bad guy. I don't attack them on their choice of PC. And when the time comes that they are tired of Windows, or are simply looking for a new adventure, or simply take a look at some of my nice hardware, they know that I'm here to help them climb aboard.

war
Feb 14, 2006, 10:03 AM
Since everyone has on something to say on this I might as well chime in too. While the discounts on the Dell are a nice touch one has to question if they are even making any sort of profit off of this computer? It appears that Dell is trying to make this a loss leader to draw people in and buy their computers. However, I do ask why all computer companies were not put into this "comparison?" Why was it just Apple and Dell? Where is Sony, Acer, HP? Seems to me the Author had something to prove.

My own Apple/Dell experience has been this; I have a PowerMac G4 1ghz (single) at home with Tiger and at work I have a Dell P4 2.6 ghz with Windows XP Pro. My mac at home runs circles around this Dell that is much newer (and has the same amount of RAM). I constantly have to wait to switch between programs in windows but never have that problem at home. I switch between photoshop, flash, and other heavy hitters at home but at work all I switch between is Excel and Outlook. I find it amazing that my 3 year old mac is so much faster. I would be so much more efficient at work if I had a lot of tiger features here. Simple things such as having shortcuts to folders on the left side of the finder would do wonders for me if I had that in windows. Finally, this Dell is actually the third machine that I have had since I have been at this job for 2 years. The new computers are because each of my previous Dell's have broken down. I actually just got an e-mail that I am getting another machine because there is some sort of flaw in this one. (which I am happy about because I get a flat panel monitor this time).

So, in a little over 2 years I will have had 4 Dells, because of lack of quality, and ONE mac. Which is the better bargain? 4 cheap items usually cost more than one quality one. Caveat Emptor with whatever you but especially a Dell.

kugino
Feb 14, 2006, 10:11 AM
i agree with those that have wondered where the sony or other PC comparisons are...why is it always dell? in my mind the closest PC competitor to apple is sony...once they start using the intel CD chip (that is, if they do), i'd like to see a price comparison.

nagromme
Feb 14, 2006, 10:53 AM
The Dell is better in certain specs.

The MacBook is better in others (and has a faster CPU than expected now).

With software bundle, OS, and thin form factor, and the metal case, the edge is clearly to the MacBook. The MacBook is clearly the better machine.

Now throw in Dell's failure rate vs. Apple's (these things are tracked). No contest--the MacBook is the better machine.

Want a discount? Buy it from Amazon or get the education discount.

And you still have a large price difference.

Add up all the things you get with the MacBook pro and decide, are they worth the $ to YOU?

Is thick OK? Is giving up the iSight and ExpressCard slot OK? Is Windows acceptable? Is giving up iLife a non-issue for you? Is a lighted keyboard not that big a deal?

If all factors add up to the Dell being a better deal for YOU, then go for it. They don't for me. The MacBook gives ME far more for my dollar than the Dell.

Each person can only come to their own buying decision. They can't dictate that ALL people buy the same as them.

And to those who think Apple is being dishonest by charging what the market will pay (which is what ALL companies do), don't forget the volume Dell sells. That means savings Apple doesn't yet have.

Do I hope Macs become even cheaper? Of course. Are they a great choice already? The best on the planet.

And there are cheap Dells ready for those who choose differently. More power to them.

jakemikey
Feb 14, 2006, 11:05 AM
i agree with those that have wondered where the sony or other PC comparisons are...why is it always dell? in my mind the closest PC competitor to apple is sony...once they start using the intel CD chip (that is, if they do), i'd like to see a price comparison.

Sony already uses a Core Duo. You can Google or Froogle. It's marginally cheaper. This is all beside the point though. "Regular" pricing aside. Apple never offers comparable rebates. I just bought a Compaq Presario notebook to replace my iBook that just died. It has much better expandability, a much better screen, and similar performance - or arguably better- than any iBook, and it cost me $579. That's about $400 less than the cheapest new iBook you'll find. Those are hard numbers, people, and it's not a Dell. I happen to think Compaq does a pretty decent job on their design compared to other PC vendors.

(And no, Windows will not live on it.)

Gasu E.
Feb 14, 2006, 12:05 PM
MCE is XP PRO with add-ons, not home edition with add-ons. so it does support 2 processors

Then why does XP Pro cost more than MCE?

Check the Dell website-- they contradict your assertion.

Gasu E.
Feb 14, 2006, 12:33 PM
These Dell vs. Apple discussions are always pretty ridiculous.

Dell sells laptops in a huge variety of configurations and price points that vary in price by a factor greater than four. Apple has a relatively small set of available configurations. It is always possibly to find a Dell system that is either much cheaper or much more expensive than an Apple one.

Dell tends to bundle relatively little software into their base offerings, while Apple bundles a lot of software, some of it unbelievably great (what compares to iMovie or GarageBand?)

Thus trying to make sweeping generalizations about which has a higher acquisition cost are bogus; it all depends on whether a specific individual values the advantages of one over the other.

Even the cost of ownership arguments can't be generalized. Every individual has his/her own usage patterns and these affect total cost of ownership.

Thus I can understand why someone would choose to buy a Dell offering rather than an Apple offering based on how much they care about Apple's value-added.

What I don't understand, however, is someone saying they prefer Apple, but won't buy it based on Dell pricing; but nevertheless won't buy a Dell. Apple prices have been dropping continuously along with the rest of the industry. Apple prices today are lower than Dell prices a year ago. If you want or need something you should make the decision to purchase it based on the benefit to you relative to the cost. The only time you should care about the cost relative to another item is if both items can satisfy your need. To say you would only buy an Apple, but only at a Dell price, does not suggest a logical decision-making process.

umairjaanu
Feb 14, 2006, 12:47 PM
Most of you guys have been Mac users for long time. I just switched to apple last year and believe me, apple is thousands time better then any WIndows machines, and i know all of u know that. So yeah Dell is cheaper, but they find the cheapest hardware to make their systems. Since dell is a cheap company , and only way they can sell their product is to give the customers many coupons. But even then, The original price is almost same as Apple. If Dell 1.83 Ghz Duo is about $1799, Today Apple announced that 1.83 ghz for $1999, and IF u use Student Discount, it is same as DELL.

Bottom line... I know apple is little expensive, but we have to see what they give us for that price, THE BEST HARDWARE, and GREAT OS.

IJ Reilly
Feb 14, 2006, 01:11 PM
Apple may have all sorts of industrial design advantages over Dell (the maker of truly cheap and clunky PCs), but since Apple is now competing on a level hardware playing field, these cost comparisons are no-brainers both for consumers and media reviewers. They are going to happen. Apple has to deal with it somehow, and talking about the OS, viruses, iSight cameras, bundled software and backlit keyboards just isn't going to cut it when the price gap is so large.

wpwj40e
Feb 14, 2006, 01:13 PM
Inspiron 9400
Date & Time: February 14,2006 12:52 PM CST

SYSTEM COMPONENTS
Inspiron 9400 Qty 1
Intel® Core™ Duo Processor T2500 (2GHz/667MHz FSB), Genuine Windows XP Professional Unit Price $2,491.00
Save $425 on select Inspiron 9400 systems!
Special offer
- $425.00

Catalog Number: 4
Module Description Show Details
Inspiron 9400 Intel® Core™ Duo Processor T2500 (2GHz/667MHz FSB)
Operating System (Office software not included) Genuine Windows XP Professional
LCD Panel 17 inch Wide Screen XGA+ Display
Memory 1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz
Graphics Card 256MB NVIDA® GeForce™ Go 7800
Hard Drive 100GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
Network Card Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 6.0
Combo/DVD+RW Drives 8x CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
Wireless Networking Cards Intel PRO/Wireless 3945 802.11a/g Mini Card (54Mbps)
Office Software (not included in Windows XP) No productivity suite- Corel WordPerfect word processor only
Anti-Virus/Security Suite (Pre-installed) No Security Subscription
Primary Battery 53 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Dell Service & Support Plans 1 Year Mail-in Economy Plan
Onsite System Setup No Onsite System Setup
Dial-Up Internet Access 6 Months of America Online Membership Included
Wireless Personal Networking Card Dell Wireless 350 Bluetooth Internal(2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate)
Miscellaneous Inspiron 9400
Financial Software No QuickBooks package selected - includes limited use trial
Operating System Backup & Recovery PC Restore recovery system by Symantec
Purchase Intent Purchase is not intended for resale.

TOTAL:$2,066.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was the closest and cheapest I could configure - using the latest and greatest in coupons to the current 2.0 Macbook Pro. A friend is ordering one today and asked that I check it out against Dell - interesting this thread was around at the same time - made it a bit easier!

It (dell) is a 17in - non upgraded screen - which is too big for what he wants anyways....

The above config has basic software - does not include media center - which I won't even get into - why that version just s****cks - as on this config it was not an option. Depending on how worthwhile things like iSight, power cord, etc - all the stuff that has been mentioned are worth to you -when compared it is much more equal that this thread woul dhave you believe. And (I'm not a loyal Apple person - just bought my first personal apple machine and have had more than my share of issues - but can see the benefits!)
The 2.0 Macbook pro from Amazon is

2350 after rebate before other discounts like A9 etc.

There appears to be about a $300 difference give or take...While I understand the $1000 - that model was limited by the coupon - did not even have all the options that could be selected and thus should not be used as a config that anyone could get anyday from Dell. 'Cause it's one of those that throw out there for a few hours...

It appears the reality(with coupons etc) factoring s & H/tax no tax - that the difference will be around $300-$400 depending on coupons/rebates etc.

For that you get OS X, iLife and the other features not available on a Win or Dell.

I personally think BOTH of these (Apple & Dell) are overpriced and would not pay it. (Love my new Intel 20" iMac:))

But my friend wants a high end laptop and after comparing the two - putting OS aside 'cause he uses both - decided to go with the Apple. BTW - once you start adding in warranty - virusware etc that you would need to get - price even beyond OS becomes much more comparable...


Therese

bousozoku
Feb 14, 2006, 01:50 PM
It´s a RIP OFF!!!

APPLE, lower your prices! **"?"##!!

No, it's not. If you've read things instead of just trolling, you'll notice that 3 of us (to this point) already came up with closely matching the configurations and the Dell came out to be about the same price, not $1000 less at all.

timswim78
Feb 14, 2006, 02:24 PM
The article really did not make the best comparisons. If you want to look at a notebook that is comparable to the Mac Book Pro, then look up the Acer 8200.

In my opinion and experience, Dell's build qality leaves a great deal to be desired. On the other hand, I really like Acer's build quaility.

Stridder44
Feb 14, 2006, 04:04 PM
Doesnt matter now! Speed bumps! As stated already, this article is trash now. Move along, nothing to see here...

dr_lha
Feb 14, 2006, 05:09 PM
Apple may have all sorts of industrial design advantages over Dell (the maker of truly cheap and clunky PCs), but since Apple is now competing on a level hardware playing field, these cost comparisons are no-brainers both for consumers and media reviewers. They are going to happen. Apple has to deal with it somehow, and talking about the OS, viruses, iSight cameras, bundled software and backlit keyboards just isn't going to cut it when the price gap is so large.

Hardware comparisons between Dells and Apples only matters to PC hardware geeks. The fact is that Apple make Macs, not Windows PCs. If you want a Mac you go to Apple. I know my next computer will be a Mac, so I'm not going to be window shopping on Dell's website to see how the price compares (personally I don't think Dells are that much cheaper, and generally are ***** - I'm speaking as a owner of a Dell Laptop).

The fact is that all this talk about how much cheaper Dells are is just Windows fans way of reinforcing the stereotype that Macs are expensive.

rmhop81
Feb 14, 2006, 09:21 PM
go to dell small business section and price out an inspiron 9400 which is the same thing. you can load it up with a 2ghz core duo and everything else priced like the 1.83ghz MBP and you're still cheaper than the MBP. Everything is basing this on that you don't have any discounts just straight through the dell home section, which is the worst place to buy from without a coupon. To get a good deal, go through the small business section where everyday prices are a good deal. add in the xuga display and the 256mb graphics card, 2ghz, 1gb ram, superdrive, and you've got a better machine @ cheaper price than the base MBP. one more thing to remember. This is dell's BASE price. Dell doesn't work like apple does, where nothing ever goes on sale. There are coupons out all the time to get good deals so basing the prices vs. dell base price isn't reality.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=i9400sapp&s=bsd

bousozoku
Feb 14, 2006, 10:25 PM
go to dell small business section and price out an inspiron 9400 which is the same thing. you can load it up with a 2ghz core duo and everything else priced like the 1.83ghz MBP and you're still cheaper than the MBP. Everything is basing this on that you don't have any discounts just straight through the dell home section, which is the worst place to buy from without a coupon. To get a good deal, go through the small business section where everyday prices are a good deal. add in the xuga display and the 256mb graphics card, 2ghz, 1gb ram, superdrive, and you've got a better machine @ cheaper price than the base MBP. one more thing to remember. This is dell's BASE price. Dell doesn't work like apple does, where nothing ever goes on sale. There are coupons out all the time to get good deals so basing the prices vs. dell base price isn't reality.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=i9400sapp&s=bsd

I got $2066 from configuring that machine. How is that cheaper than $1999?

pgwalsh
Feb 15, 2006, 11:27 AM
It´s a RIP OFF!!!

APPLE, lower your prices! **"?"##!!
Exactly!

This is the epidomy of a Mac fanboy thread. Apple can do no wrong. I love Apple and I love my PowerBook, but I don't like the prices.

If I am a consumer and not a fanboy and I compare the two products, I'd probably go with the Dell. You get a lot more bang for the buck. Forget about design and everything else. Apple has been using the same friggin design in their powerbooks for years and I'm sure they've already paid for R&D. If that Dell was loaded with OS X, which do you think I'd buy? You could make fun of me all you want, but I'd be laughing all the way to the bank. I got a more powerful machine with OS X and saved 1K. Ha!

Apple, lower your prices.

iSaint
Feb 15, 2006, 11:42 AM
Dell is cheap, I think that says it all. :p

Yes, I was about to say: the key word here is "cheap"

Timepass
Feb 15, 2006, 03:18 PM
weather or not everything in the Dell book is as good as apple. (Apple computer looks better). it a fact that the Dell computers are cheaper for the hardware. Software only matters so much but lets face it for basic needs the Dell is by far cheaper plus dell discounts.

Rememeber that most people here have the though that apple can do no wrong and everything is price correctly. Apple had a lot more room to get away with the extra price when they where runningo n PPC but now that they are on intel they are now going to be competing on same ground in hardware. Software not going to make the diffences for switchers. They see the hardware is about the same and that the dell is a lot cheaper.

I think apple going to need to lower there prices some to stay competitive. Do they have to go as low as dell no. But I do think they need to knock off about 200-300. With about the same hardware specs the apple premium becomes a lot clear to see and it going to bug people. Just look at the past when they release the first mac. The apple premium hurt. Yes the mac was better but when comparing it to cost the question comes is it worth it.

Another good example on how this is extra cost is going to hurt is just to look at the monitors. Apple monitor cost a lot more compared to dells. Yes the apple monitor has some nice things on it. But is it worth the extra cost for the looks I for one dont think so.
That what a lot of people are going to see it as. Why am I paying 200-300 bucks more just for looks.

Gasu E.
Feb 15, 2006, 03:42 PM
Where are these magic Dell coupons????

I haven't seen one of you Dell proponents actually construct a side-by-side comparison between comparable Dell and Apple configurations, where Dell comes out significantly cheaper, without resorting to airy-fairy coupons that oh-by-the-way don't actually exist at this particular moment in time.

So where are the magic coupons today? Brigadoon? Only valid in Atlantis? Good on February 29, 2006 only?

Josh
Feb 15, 2006, 03:50 PM
I've seen more Dell coupons/promotions in one week than I see from Apple in a year. Seriously.

Here are a bunch: http://www.dealcatcher.com/dell-home-coupons

Funny thing....there's not a single one for Apple. There, or anywhere else online - and not just now, but...ever.

Perhaps they are the ones in Atlantis?

zap2
Feb 15, 2006, 03:52 PM
Now Apple is cheaper(with the update!)(with out the diso****)

jhu
Feb 15, 2006, 03:57 PM
Hardware comparisons between Dells and Apples only matters to PC hardware geeks. The fact is that Apple make Macs, not Windows PCs. If you want a Mac you go to Apple. I know my next computer will be a Mac, so I'm not going to be window shopping on Dell's website to see how the price compares (personally I don't think Dells are that much cheaper, and generally are ***** - I'm speaking as a owner of a Dell Laptop).

The fact is that all this talk about how much cheaper Dells are is just Windows fans way of reinforcing the stereotype that Macs are expensive.

now that apple is using intel processors, the only difference between an apple computer versus other computers is the operating system. with regards to that, i don't feel that mac os x and the ancillary programs are worth the extra $200-$300.

Gasu E.
Feb 15, 2006, 04:00 PM
weather or not everything in the Dell book is as good as apple. (Apple computer looks better). it a fact that the Dell computers are cheaper for the hardware. Software only matters so much but lets face it for basic needs the Dell is by far cheaper plus dell discounts.


If you only have basic needs, why would you even be looking at the laptops people have been talking about? There's no point in a 2 GHz Duo if you are only going to surf the net and write term papers.

Gasu E.
Feb 15, 2006, 04:13 PM
I've seen more Dell coupons/promotions in one week than I see from Apple in a year. Seriously.

Here are a bunch: http://www.dealcatcher.com/dell-home-coupons

Funny thing....there's not a single one for Apple. There, or anywhere else online - and not just now, but...ever.

Perhaps they are the ones in Atlantis?

And not one of these is anything like the alleged coupon that set off this discussion... these are just the equivalent of the $250 that has been included in every comparison... by Apple proponents.

Most of the people on the Dell side of this argument have asserted a $1000 difference on Core Duos... and none of the discounts you point to are remotely supportive of this, or anything like it.

What they do support is a company that artificially inflates list price so that they can always discount them... creating a false sense of value. A common retailing trick to draw in the weak-minded.

So where are they, I ask you again?

Now, I would not dispute the assertion that historically Dell has dropped prices faster than Apple has on products as they age. Nor that Dell has lower entry level options. Nor that Dell might even be a little bit cheaper across the board. What I would however like to see is some evidence that Dell offers ephemeral discounts on their latest and hottest products, which is the basis of this discussion. Please, show us!

billyboy
Feb 15, 2006, 04:16 PM
I am an Apple fan, my future wifey is a Dell user. We both bought our laptops 3 years ago. She paid $1500, I paid nearly $3000.

I have reinstalled my OS 3 times, (twice to upgrade OS, once to repartition.) she is about to reinstall hers for the first time thanks to a series of viruses that have wrecked her sound and wont let XP return to a previous date when her OS worked OK. (Dont know what the feature is called, but it is supposed to be one of those features that make XP better than OS X.)

Her battery just died and even though she thought she had total coverage, Dell wouldnt replace it. Mine is not doing great, maybe an hour use now, but I was under no illusion that my Applecare which has just run out, would replace something that just wears out through no one's fault.

I have been using mine 8 to 12 hours a day running increasingly more productivity software, she surfs the internet, plays music, writes a few letters and does some graphic design. When we skype, i continue multitasking albeit with a few slowdowns, she doesnt do much apart from surf the internet and shuts down as many apps as possible.

She understands the advantage of no viruses, no adware, not having to wait for Norton or Macafee to get in her face every single day. She was grateful to use my Powerbook while her laptop was unusable, but she hates the Powerbooks one button touchpad especially with it being tricked out with sidetrack.

I told her that later this year I have my eye on a new Intel Mac Pro, and she never batted an eyelid when i said around 2000$. So there you are, just something to think about in the debate. basically, both companies are capable of producing reliable hardware, Apple is streets ahead in design, ease of use and pleasure of use, but it costs upfront. You only get the extra upfront cost back if you work your mac to death, something it is perfectly capable of doing faultlessly for years. If you dont intend crunching Photoshop, multitasking and getting the most out of all Apple's iLife suite, then Dell seems a better option.

PS And she doesnt know how to take lovely screen shots on her Dell, which sort of makes communicating hard sometimes. Can you take screen shots like with Snapz Pro on a Win box?

zap2
Feb 15, 2006, 04:19 PM
now that apple is using intel processors, the only difference between an apple computer versus other computers is the operating system. with regards to that, i don't feel that mac os x and the ancillary programs are worth the extra $200-$300.

So your logic is when Apples laptop line is running the Slow G4 is worth the extra price, but with the fast intel its not?

Still not the only difference(Apple Makes HardWare and SoftWare, so any problems between the 2 is able to be work out by one company, buy dell and whne u get a problem dell is blaming MS and MS is blaming Dell)

OS X is worth the Price of 200-300 easy.

Gasu E.
Feb 15, 2006, 04:20 PM
now that apple is using intel processors, the only difference between an apple computer versus other computers is the operating system. with regards to that, i don't feel that mac os x and the ancillary programs are worth the extra $200-$300.

Actually most of the comparisons here have configured in Windows XP Home or Media, not XP Pro. If you are a college student, a mobile worker, or anyone else who switches between computing domains, only XP Pro is recommended by Dell or Microsoft.

dr_lha
Feb 15, 2006, 04:25 PM
now that apple is using intel processors, the only difference between an apple computer versus other computers is the operating system. with regards to that, i don't feel that mac os x and the ancillary programs are worth the extra $200-$300.
Well don't buy a Mac then. Simple as that. Nobody is forcing you to.

Personally I think $200-300 is a small price to pay in the large increase of productivity I get using Mac OS X over Windows.

Not only that, but Apple laptops are simply better built than Dell ones. As I said, I own a Dell laptop, I know what I'm talking about here. As many people have said here, if you want to compare like with like, compare A MacBookPro to a comparable Thinkpad or Sony Vaio.

Gasu E.
Feb 15, 2006, 04:39 PM
I am an Apple fan, my future wifey is a Dell user. We both bought our laptops 3 years ago. She paid $1500, I paid nearly $3000.

I have reinstalled my OS 3 times, (twice to upgrade OS, once to repartition.) she is about to reinstall hers for the first time thanks to a series of viruses that have wrecked her sound and wont let XP return to a previous date when her OS worked OK. (Dont know what the feature is called, but it is supposed to be one of those features that make XP better than OS X.)

Her battery just died and even though she thought she had total coverage, Dell wouldnt replace it. Mine is not doing great, maybe an hour use now, but I was under no illusion that my Applecare which has just run out, would replace something that just wears out through no one's fault.

I have been using mine 8 to 12 hours a day running increasingly more productivity software, she surfs the internet, plays music, writes a few letters and does some graphic design. When we skype, i continue multitasking albeit with a few slowdowns, she doesnt do much apart from surf the internet and shuts down as many apps as possible.

She understands the advantage of no viruses, no adware, not having to wait for Norton or Macafee to get in her face every single day. She was grateful to use my Powerbook while her laptop was unusable, but she hates the Powerbooks one button touchpad especially with it being tricked out with sidetrack.

I told her that later this year I have my eye on a new Intel Mac Pro, and she never batted an eyelid when i said around 2000$. So there you are, just something to think about in the debate. basically, both companies are capable of producing reliable hardware, Apple is streets ahead in design, ease of use and pleasure of use, but it costs upfront. You only get the extra upfront cost back if you work your mac to death, something it is perfectly capable of doing faultlessly for years. If you dont intend crunching Photoshop, multitasking and getting the most out of all Apple's iLife suite, then Dell seems a better option.

PS And she doesnt know how to take lovely screen shots on her Dell, which sort of makes communicating hard sometimes. Can you take screen shots like with Snapz Pro on a Win box?

I know what you mean. I bought my daughter a Dell laptop a couple of years ago because her college "only supports Windows." The #$#% thing would just die constantly. I mean, MTBF of 2-4 hours. And these weren't Bluescreens-- the machine would just STOP dead. The first thing I learned was that "support" at her school wasn't what I thought of as "support"; all it meant was "you can't configure Macs to use our net printers." So I ended up wearing the first line support hat... luckily she is only 45 minutes away. To make a long story short, I figured out from the fan activity that the machine was overheating, and must be triggering a thermal cut-off device. Dell customer support was no help in this (apparently, they really only have information on soft failures), but after four calls there they did agree to replace the motherboard. Very impressive turnaround on the repair, too. Since the motherboard replacement, the thing still craps out in the same way, but more like once per month.

I guess it was my error in the first place to buy an Inspiron with a 3GHZ P4. A device that hot does not do so well crammed into such a tight package, and I probably should have known better. On the other hand, it reflects pretty badly on Dell that they would ship such a marginal design. Probably I put too much faith in Dell design, based on my experiences with Apple. I had assumed the only real difference in industrial design would be in the appearance.

jhu
Feb 15, 2006, 06:14 PM
So your logic is when Apples laptop line is running the Slow G4 is worth the extra price, but with the fast intel its not?

Still not the only difference(Apple Makes HardWare and SoftWare, so any problems between the 2 is able to be work out by one company, buy dell and whne u get a problem dell is blaming MS and MS is blaming Dell)

OS X is worth the Price of 200-300 easy.

first of all, the g4 is not slow by any means. with powerpc a valid argument can be made that a completely different architecture that isn't commodatized as x86 commands a higher premium. look at sun or ibm servers. no, the logic is that apple is generally not worth the premium in software alone especially now that they've completely moved to commodatized hardware.

zap2
Feb 15, 2006, 06:17 PM
first of all, the g4 is not slow by any means. with powerpc a valid argument can be made that a completely different architecture that isn't commodatized as x86 commands a higher premium. look at sun or ibm servers. no, the logic is that apple is generally not worth the premium in software alone especially now that they've completely moved to commodatized hardware.


Well Core Duo vs G4, Core Duo wins, were u complain about Apple being to price when the had PPC only?

Say what u will, i'll keep buy Apple Stuff until i die

jhu
Feb 15, 2006, 06:17 PM
Well don't buy a Mac then. Simple as that. Nobody is forcing you to.

Personally I think $200-300 is a small price to pay in the large increase of productivity I get using Mac OS X over Windows.



the issue is not whether anyone is forcing anyone to do something. the argument here is whether or not the premium for apple hardware is really worth the several hundred dollars.

jhu
Feb 15, 2006, 06:21 PM
Well Core Duo vs G4, Core Duo wins, were u complain about Apple being to price when the had PPC only?

Say what u will, i'll keep buy Apple Stuff until i die

pentium m is also better than g4. does that make the pentium m ibm thinkpad better than your g4 powerbook then? no one is forcing you to buy one thing or another.

i don't complain about prices since i rarely buy computers.

dr_lha
Feb 15, 2006, 06:22 PM
the issue is not whether anyone is forcing anyone to do something. the argument here is whether or not the premium for apple hardware is really worth it several hundred dollars.

I think it is. You don't think so. One wonders why you are here then really. Just trolling I guess.

Note: The extra $$$ is not just a hardware premium, you're paying a premium for getting a Mac, and all that entails. There's no upgrade option at Dell's website to make their machine a Mac.

jhu
Feb 15, 2006, 06:40 PM
I think it is. You don't think so. One wonders why you are here then really. Just trolling I guess.

Note: The extra $$$ is not just a hardware premium, you're paying a premium for getting a Mac, and all that entails. There's no upgrade option at Dell's website to make their machine a Mac.

perhaps because i have a mac?

dr_lha
Feb 15, 2006, 07:12 PM
perhaps because i have a mac?
You should get rid of it and buy one of these Dell laptops, clearly! They're cheaper after all.

jhu
Feb 15, 2006, 07:31 PM
You should get rid of it and buy one of these Dell laptops, clearly! They're cheaper after all.

perhaps, but that would entail spending more money

bousozoku
Feb 15, 2006, 08:14 PM
perhaps, but that would entail spending more money

Indeed, the Dell machines seem to be slightly more expensive.

I think we've beaten the dead horse quite enough.