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View Full Version : RIAA: Wipe your iPods of music before selling on eBay


MacBytes
Feb 17, 2006, 08:49 AM
http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif (http://www.macbytes.com)

Category: Tunes
Link: RIAA: Wipe your iPods of music before selling on eBay (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20060217094906)
Description:: According to the RIAA, the sellers of all those iPods we’ve seen popping up on eBay and Craiglist, pre-loaded with the user’s complete music libraries in many cases, are opening themselves up to a slew of potential lawsuits by the Recording Industry Association of America.

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

BurtonCCC
Feb 17, 2006, 08:51 AM
Wow. I almost did that a few months ago.

Daniel.

dornoforpyros
Feb 17, 2006, 09:13 AM
umm duh....

Gravity
Feb 17, 2006, 09:17 AM
So what would they do? Buy iPods at random to see if someone left their music on there? Or just look for people who try to drive up the price of their iPods by including the music and advertising it?

TrumanApple
Feb 17, 2006, 09:17 AM
can't you resell a song legally like you can resell a cd...? The only catch would be if you sold your library of music on ebay, you would have to give up the rights to the cds they were ripped from? So doesn't that mean that selling ipods with songs IS legal in SOME cases?

iGary
Feb 17, 2006, 09:20 AM
These people are unreal.

Go concentrate on developing better artists rather than stalking around on fracking Ebay and Craigs List for Christ sake.

Worse than politicians.

Benjamindaines
Feb 17, 2006, 09:24 AM
These people are unreal.

Go concentrate on developing better artists rather than stalking around on fracking Ebay and Craigs List for Christ sake.

Worse than politicians.
I agree, now those arses are trying to make it un-lawful to rip your music that you PAID for to your iPod.

mwpeters8182
Feb 17, 2006, 09:35 AM
If I recall, the RIAA (as well as video game publishers) considers selling used CDs/games somewhat of a grey area. They don't really like it.

I've got no problems with selling a CD, I think you should have the ability to do that (provided you haven't made a copy for yourself first.) But I do agree, unless you're giving up all those songs, or sending the CDs with the iPod, you shouldn't be able to send them along with it. Especially since most of the 1000+ songs most people are selling along with their iPods have probably been downloaded via P2P.

I dislike the RIAA as much as the next guy, but this is valid, IMO

miloblithe
Feb 17, 2006, 09:50 AM
And especially valid if you use the free songs as a selling point for the iPod. That should not be legal.

zap2
Feb 17, 2006, 09:52 AM
Especially since most of the 1000+ songs most people are selling along with their iPods have probably been downloaded via P2P.



That a real bold statment, and its wrong

iMeowbot
Feb 17, 2006, 09:53 AM
can't you resell a song legally like you can resell a cd...? The only catch would be if you sold your library of music on ebay, you would have to give up the rights to the cds they were ripped from? So doesn't that mean that selling ipods with songs IS legal in SOME cases?
It's legal to resell the original CDs if you destroy all copies. That right is called the first sale principle.

DRM'd downloads run into resale problems because of DMCA. The tracks are useless without the keys, and no one is selling transferrable keys.

It's technically infringement to sell a preloaded iPod even if the original CDs are included, but that combination will generally be overlooked because the purchaser will have the right to load them on there anyway.

combatcolin
Feb 17, 2006, 09:54 AM
Big difference between eBay and the real world.

I have had someone intrested in my old iPod, but only if the music is kept on.

Sdashiki
Feb 17, 2006, 10:22 AM
There is a very simple solution to this that can also be used in cases of selling a computer/laptop with loaded software or even a modded gaming device with games loaded.

Solution:

you are selling an item you no longer can "format", or erase" in anyway. And you had "blah blah and blah" on the HD before you turned it off for the last time.

Not your fault your stuff is still on it. You CANT erase it.

So in essence, "you win".

Some might say this is "down right dirty and nasty pirate stuff", and others say its a way to pass the goods easily.

Whats your take?

plinkoman
Feb 17, 2006, 10:24 AM
if the RIAA is so worried about loosing money, maybe they should stop spending it all on all this anti-piracy bulls**t :rolleyes:

though i suppose this isn't too big a deal, its them saying i can't rip a legally purchased cd onto an iPod that gets me...

Yvan256
Feb 17, 2006, 10:30 AM
If I recall, the RIAA (as well as video game publishers) considers selling used CDs/games somewhat of a grey area. They don't really like it.

I've got no problems with selling a CD, I think you should have the ability to do that (provided you haven't made a copy for yourself first.) But I do agree, unless you're giving up all those songs, or sending the CDs with the iPod, you shouldn't be able to send them along with it. Especially since most of the 1000+ songs most people are selling along with their iPods have probably been downloaded via P2P.

I dislike the RIAA as much as the next guy, but this is valid, IMO

As much as I dislike the RIAA myself, I have to agree. It's no different then try to up the price of a used Mac by "including" the lastest versions of iLife, iWork, Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, etc... that you've downloaded or kept your copy of it.

Sdashiki
Feb 17, 2006, 10:39 AM
As much as I dislike the RIAA myself, I have to agree. It's no different then try to up the price of a used Mac by "including" the lastest versions of iLife, iWork, Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, etc... that you've downloaded or kept your copy of it.

see my post above. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2150504&postcount=13) #13

iMeowbot
Feb 17, 2006, 10:43 AM
see my post above.
Yeah, we saw it. Adding a fraudulent representation of the goods you are selling isn't going to help you if you get busted.

Yvan256
Feb 17, 2006, 10:43 AM
see my post above. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2150504&postcount=13) #13

Well, if you can't erase or format your device, then it's broken and you shouldn't be selling it at all (or with a big "non-working" label on it).

If I were a judge (which I'm not), that's what I'd ask.

Sdashiki
Feb 17, 2006, 10:47 AM
Well, if you can't erase or format your device, then it's broken and you shouldn't be selling it at all (or with a big "non-working" label on it).

If I were a judge (which I'm not), that's what I'd ask.

Well no it works like this:

I used this item up until the day I unplugged it boxed it up. I forgot to format it and dont want to open the box again since it took so long to seal the box so nicely.

I just sold my mac and kept the HD to put into the new one I was going to buy, now I realize I am moving and have no need for a fullsize computer, and will be switching to a laptop. So I am selling my HD, I have no way to format it though without a computer!

Point is, there are so many ways to get "around" this, that its a moot point. And only those who care so much about this to "not get involved" because its immoral or something, are ones who wouldnt buy the item.

iMeowbot
Feb 17, 2006, 10:50 AM
I just sold my mac and kept the HD to put into the new one I was going to buy, now I realize I am moving and have no need for a fullsize computer, and will be switching to a laptop. So I am selling my HD, I have no way to format it though without a computer!
Seriously, it doesn't matter how sad of a story you come up with, you can't legally sell it with the stuff on there because you don't have a clear title to the goods. It's just like a house or car with liens on it.

BOOMBA
Feb 17, 2006, 10:57 AM
Well no it works like this:

I just sold my mac and kept the HD to put into the new one I was going to buy, now I realize I am moving and have no need for a fullsize computer, and will be switching to a laptop. So I am selling my HD, I have no way to format it though without a computer!


Sdashiki, that is retarded. With that logic, I could list a CD-RW on eBay full of child pornography, and say to the FBI, "you can't bust me for distributing child pornography! I was just selling a CD-RW, and I had no way to erase it!"

mkaake
Feb 17, 2006, 10:59 AM
I think the bigger problem is that with everything the RIAA is trying to 'win', they're making people so mad at them, that it no longer matters if what they're asking for is right - people are so pissed at them that they'll do it out of spite.

Point in case - selling an iPod loaded with 4000 songs, while keeping a copy of each song (and the cd's, likely) for yourself. It is wrong. But so many people have become so anti-RIAA, that they don't care what it is that the RIAA is saying, they'll go against it.

*sigh*

They're shooting themselves in the foot.

BOOMBA
Feb 17, 2006, 11:00 AM
not that I would do that.

:o

Sdashiki
Feb 17, 2006, 11:39 AM
Sdashiki, that is retarded. With that logic, I could list a CD-RW on eBay full of child pornography, and say to the FBI, "you can't bust me for distributing child pornography! I was just selling a CD-RW, and I had no way to erase it!"

well no you are not using my logic.

i said there are good explanations for not wiping a Hard Disk Drive, not optical media.

This is an apples/oranges case where you cant just simply use MY words for YOUR purposes. They only work because I said they do, it was a simple story nothing more or less. I didnt think to add in addendums for child porn, because it had nothing to do with what we are talking about.

if you have a moral problem with buying "pirated" stuff, dont buy it.

I gave a solution to those who dont have a problem and just want to sell their crap.

Do I think charging more for something cuz it has software/music/games on it? NO! But no one can stop bidders/buyers from paying more because you tell them it has stuff on it.

Yvan256
Feb 17, 2006, 11:48 AM
Sdashiki, that is retarded. With that logic, I could list a CD-RW on eBay full of child pornography, and say to the FBI, "you can't bust me for distributing child pornography! I was just selling a CD-RW, and I had no way to erase it!"

I think you meant CD-R, but we get the idea...

"I swear officer, all I'm selling is these plastic bags! It's not my fault there's drugs in them! The bags are sealed, I can't do anything about it!" :rolleyes:

I said there are good explanations for not wiping a Hard Disk Drive, not optical media.

A good explanation doesn't equal to a legal right. Selling a HD with non-license (and non-freeware) software on it is illegal.

Are you driving around with a car with no license plate and no driver's license? Yeah, I'd like to see such a thing hold in court...

"But, your honor, I don't have the money for the license plate and the driver's license!" :rolleyes:

faintember
Feb 17, 2006, 11:52 AM
I dont see a problem with this if the people selling the iPod delete all other copies of the music before selling the iPod. Sounds reasonable to me, but we all know that people are unreasonable. :rolleyes:

Yvan256
Feb 17, 2006, 11:59 AM
I dont see a problem with this if the people selling the iPod delete all other copies of the music before selling the iPod. Sounds reasonable to me, but we all know that people are unreasonable. :rolleyes:

The real problem is, there is currently no legal way to sell an iPod with songs on it if you're not selling any CD along with it:

- Ripped tunes are only legal (law or not) if you own the CD.
- DRM tunes are not transferable, so you can't resell them (though in this case, cracking aside, the files are useless to the new buyer).

Of course, we're not talking about free songs here (such as the ones at overclocked remix).

That could be a dirty trick to increase the price of an iPod on eBay, though...

"Fully loaded 60GB iPod - 15K songs and 30 movies".

Load all the tracks from overclocked remix and put amateur movies on it (such as "Matrix XP"). :D

faintember
Feb 17, 2006, 12:19 PM
I think i understand your point. I really dont pay too much attention to DRM as i dont attempt to defeat it, so it resides under my radar, so to speak.

So with DRM are you buying the right to play a song, or are you buying a copy of the song? If it is the latter, then you should be able to sell the songs as long as all of other copies are destroyed. Right?

I hate lawyers and politicians that deal with this....:p

nagromme
Feb 17, 2006, 12:49 PM
Sell your iPod WITH the original CDs and don't keep a copy (legal? don't ask me--but ethical).

But don't sell your whole music collection AND keep copies for yourself. That wouldn't be just piracy, it would be piracy FOR PROFIT, and you could keep selling the same pirated music again and again, collecting a nice markup on each iPod. That could start to be widespread, and for once I can see why the RIAA should try to nip it in the bud.

Benjamindaines
Feb 17, 2006, 12:55 PM
Sell your iPod WITH the original CDs and don't keep a copy (legal? don't ask me--but ethical).

But don't sell your whole music collection AND keep copies for yourself. That wouldn't be just piracy, it would be piracy FOR PROFIT, and you could keep selling the same pirated music again and again, collecting a nice markup on each iPod. That could start to be widespread, and for once I can see why the RIAA should try to nip it in the bud.
Your signature completely contradicts what you just said :p :p :p

Yes, I know Firefly is a show (I have it on DVD)

p0intblank
Feb 17, 2006, 01:09 PM
This is common sense. And sadly, I see it all the time on eBay. Doesn't the same go for computer software? Tons of eBay adds read something like "Power Mac G5 *Fully Loaded*"

jer2eydevil88
Feb 17, 2006, 01:33 PM
The ITMS has increased my buying from 0 cd's a year to 1 or 2 a year. I still enjoy music from other sources and I think this is getting out of hand. If the RIAA wants to sue people for everything I think it's about time for a class action lawsuit in the manner of us the people being harrassed and bullied constantly by these people.

If McDonalds has to put CAUTION HOT on all their cofee cups then the RIAA should have to put CAUTION YOU DO NOT OWN THIS MUSIC IF YOU BUY IT IN THIS MEDIUM on all download websites and put similar warnings on CD's.

Its just out of hand..

BOOMBA
Feb 17, 2006, 03:15 PM
I think you meant CD-R, but we get the idea...
No, I meant CD-RW.

Like a hard drive, it COULD be wiped, but I didn't for some reason before selling it.

so using Sdashiki's argument, in court I am not responsible somehow for what's on it, even if it is illegal, because I couldn't erase it.

cslewis
Feb 17, 2006, 05:54 PM
The RIAA needs to get a life. I don't believe in copyright infringement, but like others have said... why don't they concentrate on more important things?

generik
Feb 17, 2006, 06:17 PM
The RIAA needs to get a life. I don't believe in copyright infringement, but like others have said... why don't they concentrate on more important things?

Shh... the fact is, there is no other "important thing". This is it!

GoCubsGo
Feb 17, 2006, 06:38 PM
http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif (http://www.macbytes.com)

Category: Tunes
Link: RIAA: Wipe your iPods of music before selling on eBay (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20060217094906)
Description:: According to the RIAA, the sellers of all those iPods we’ve seen popping up on eBay and Craiglist, pre-loaded with the user’s complete music libraries in many cases, are opening themselves up to a slew of potential lawsuits by the Recording Industry Association of America.

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by MudbugThat's a given.

Stella
Feb 17, 2006, 07:25 PM
I agree with the RIAA in this case.

If you sell your iPod with music then you should also provide the physical CDs ( originals!!!!!) to the buyer, otherwise format your iPod.

Just like computers.. if you sell your computer, wipe all your applications otherwise provide the CDs and manuals.

Tel
Feb 17, 2006, 08:47 PM
The fact that you have no means to format the a CD-RW doesn't make it legal to sell it on. It is illegal to distribute the contents of the CD-RW and just because you don't have access to the hardware to erase the data that does not make your actions legal. The fact is, if you cannot erase the date, you do not have the right to sell that CD-RW.

When you buy a music CD from a store, you are agreeing to certain terms and conditions just as you are when installing software or just like when you see a movie. These terms are clear to you because they are always printed onto every CD, shown before every install and shown at the start of every movie/dvd, by continuing to listen to the CD, installing the software or watching the movie you are agreeing to those terms and conditions. One of those is that you are not allowed to distribute the media without selling on the original and deleting all copy's you may have made (these terms will probably differ slightly from different forms of media and from different companies), if you for some reason cannot delete your copies or give the original copy out then you have no rights what so ever to sell them on.

These are rules that you're agreeing to, when you install software, you read the terms first and if you don't like them you click cancel. Well, if you don't like the terms on a CD or DVD and you don't wish to agree with them then you shouldn't buy it.

Those terms are written by some of the highest paid, most professional and blood-thirsty lawyers in the world, you are not going to outsmart them with some random little story.

bousozoku
Feb 17, 2006, 09:46 PM
These people are unreal.

Go concentrate on developing better artists rather than stalking around on fracking Ebay and Craigs List for Christ sake.

Worse than politicians.

I agree with them on this one, and only this one. You should have the player void of music when you sell it, unless you're including the original CDs with it. Equally, you shouldn't sell a computer without the original discs to any of the loaded software.

generik
Feb 17, 2006, 10:13 PM
RIAA should offer iPod degaussing services, and subpeona ebay so that no one can sell used iPods on ebay anymore. Well if average joe american can't be bothered to read the papers then that should teach 'em.

Marble
Feb 17, 2006, 11:19 PM
Who wants an iPod loaded with someone else's taste in music anyways? :p

Also remember that anyone buying an iPod still filled with music will have to use specialized software to move the music to their hard drive. I don't expect most users, unless they were specifically looking for it, would see that there are songs to get from a second-hand iPod before iTunes reformats it for them anyway.

Tupring
Feb 18, 2006, 01:41 AM
Especially since most of the 1000+ songs most people are selling along with their iPods have probably been downloaded via P2P.That a real bold statment, and its wrong
Yeah, I get all my music from Usenet.

Well, if you can't erase or format your device, then it's broken and you shouldn't be selling it at all (or with a big "non-working" label on it).Sure, you just sell it "As-Is" or "For Parts."

I wonder what the situation would be for a Donated computer?

Tupring
Feb 18, 2006, 01:56 AM
Sdashiki, that is retarded. With that logic, I could list a CD-RW on eBay full of child pornography, and say to the FBI, "you can't bust me for distributing child pornography! I was just selling a CD-RW, and I had no way to erase it!"Unless of course, you didn't have any way of knowing what was on the CD-RW in the first place because you have no computer to see the contents and therefore no use for it. So you decide to sell it to someone who owns a computer so that they can erase it and use it.

combatcolin
Feb 18, 2006, 03:38 AM
I'll be very surprised if anyone gets sued.

Suppose its dwon to the individual, i don't have a problem with selling my iPod ith all my music on it, but i would not lend out my CD collection.

Deepdale
Feb 18, 2006, 05:36 AM
While prospective sellers wipe their iPods clean of all music, wouldn't it be fair if the powers at RIAA did a different type of wiping?

Benjamindaines
Feb 18, 2006, 09:17 AM
Unless of course, you didn't have any way of knowing what was on the CD-RW in the first place because you have no computer to see the contents and therefore no use for it. So you decide to sell it to someone who owns a computer so that they can erase it and use it.
If you didn't have a computer why would you even have CD-RWs or how would you be able to create an ebay listing? This whole CD-RW example is completely irrelevant .