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Over Achiever
Jan 21, 2003, 09:02 AM
I was thinking that it was strange that Logic 6's release wasn't in the "New Mac Application Announcements" forums, so I'll post a new thread here.

If it has been posted in another forum, mods please delete this thread.

Well, it seems Logic 6 (http://www.emagic.de/english/news/2003/logic6/index.html) was introduced on January 16. So far, it doesn't seem like it has been available yet until mid-February (http://www.emagic.de/english/news/2003/logic6/availability.html)

http://www.emagic.de/english/news/2003/logic6/media/img/products/logic6.jpg

New Features:
>>Improved Format Support
ReWire 2 Support
MP3 Import/Bounce/Convert (Mac OS X only)

>>Intelligent CPU Resource Management
Freeze
Off-Line Bounce

>>Grouping
Grouping of Mixer objects

>>Mixing in the Arrange window
Arrange Channel Strip

>>Smooth Video Synchronization
Video Thumbnail track in the Arrange
DV Movie playback via FireWire

>>Intelligent Project Manager
Project Manager
Save as Project
Logic Setup Assistant (Mac OS X only)

>>Several Enhancements in the Arrange window
Marquee Tool
Hide Tracks
Time Stretching in Arrange
New Arrange Icons
Sample-Accurate Display in Arrange window

>>New Channel EQ plug-in
Channel EQ plug-in

>>Expanded Control Surface Support
Control Surface Support
Quick Automation Parameter Access

Over Achiever
Jan 21, 2003, 09:19 AM
See below.

maka
Jan 21, 2003, 10:19 AM
i was hoping for a cleaner interface now that Apple bought Emagic... maybe it was too soon.

howard
Jan 21, 2003, 01:46 PM
cleaner interface no kidding...85% of why i don't use logic instead of dp3 is because of the interface, i personally really don't like it

daveg5
Jan 21, 2003, 02:08 PM
good to see they are adding features that have been on cubase sx, "but the interface has to change soon" it is the least intuitive of the major apps and one reason along with vst and dspfactory support why i still use cubase 5.1 in 9.2 and love it as it is a stable as any app in osx that i have used . will get sl soon but will stay with my 4.7 logic in os9 until they upgrade this extremely tired gui on an otherwise fine from what i,ve read music app. i am still waiting for screenshot of dp4 osx i hope they updated they look to like cubase a new os needs a new interface, but i can understand many logic users still use os9 and will until more drivers are updated for there hardware and software or a vst osx compatable wrapper app is developed to use os9 vsti and vstfx plugs.
also apple should continue to support the pc version just update it six months later with less features. why stop the profitable gravy train? when pc users notice that the mac version is better optimized has more features and a cleaner interface and cheaper, they will switch. and to those that never will will still support apple / emagic with profits in both hardware and software. much like ipod, old clariswork, trogen horse.
peace out

ivtrk
Jan 21, 2003, 04:00 PM
.

alset
Jan 21, 2003, 05:15 PM
The interface is a result of Emagic adding features to the same old Logic for years and years (much like how OS 9 was developed on an old OS). I expect to see it improve with a large overhaul, but not for a long time.

I, for one, am tremendously relieved to see the channel strip of the active channel added to the side of the Arrange window. This will help save time and make my time in Logic more productive.

As for usability (often a case against Logic), I think of Logic something like learning UNIX. It requires a good deal of study, but as you learn more and more about the Environment it becomes an increasingly powerful tool. Where MIDI programming is concerned, Logic is king.

Dan

daveg5
Jan 21, 2003, 08:47 PM
I agree it is the same just like os9.2.2 looks for the most part like 7.6 just with a lot of added features. Once I used OSX i could'nt use it any more so i downloaded an app that gives me the aqua interface when i use classic and os9.2.2, -features count but can get in the way if not laid out cleanly and "logically" so they are easy to access and look good too.

Timothy
Jan 22, 2003, 01:11 PM
I'm really trying to set up a system that will allow my wife to record and compose on her computer. She is a singer/songwriter, pianist. We've tried several times, unsuccessfully, to get a simple to use, intuitive system that will allow her to be productive. But, all attempts have failed.

So, with all this talk of Apple buying Emagic, and the iminent release of Logic 6, I decided to give it a look. But still...I just don't think the Audio World "gets it" relative to the idea of simplicity.

For example, I wanted to understand better what Logic 6 does. I understand and have worked a bit with Pro Tools (produced two albums in a studio using Pro Tools). But, there is no quick and easy explanation of what Logic is and does outside of the techno-speak that I am sure is familiar to those who spend all day working on these apps. Logic is entirely geared towards high-end computer geeks (I use that term affectionately).

So, I even noticed that they offer a lower-end version of their product in MicroLogic AV. Still...no simple, intuitive, easy explanation of what it is they do. I could never send my wife to this web site to figure this stuff out.

Finally...I wanted to at least look at the price for what these packages run. No where on their site do they list prices, no where do they list "Where To Buy." The closest they come is to list the phone number (not a toll-free number) of the US distributor. So, I assume that Logic is not available via traditional channels, but only at high-end music stores.

The point to this long post? Logic may be a great program for dedicated audio geeks...but is nowhere near ready to be presented to the rest of the world. Even their simple versions seem not to be simple.

With Apple purchasing them, I certainly hope they can provide some marketing expertise, becaue this company seems to need it. And, if the answer is simply that Logic will never focus on the simpler aspects of audio production, that's fine; but there is a huge need for such a niche to be filled.

I remain extremely frustrated with the state of the world of Audio apps relative to the prosumer market.

daveg5
Jan 22, 2003, 04:38 PM
all the audio app manuifactuers web sites are extremely confusing, Mostly german. no price or clear studio set up examples etc. I find cubase easier for beginers then logic but logic has more features now. all the talk of busses and groups and crowded windows must be disconserting for newer users who basically just want a midi sequencer and a 16-24 track tape recorder with effects and maybe a sound module in software. Also there are no demos of logic or cubase or in x or dp at all so how do you decide? well there are demo of cubase in os9 logic use to have logic free soon to be itracks byu apple ibelieve and of course protools free. there are demos of bias deck in os9 and osx it seems simple enough but skips on midi features, and cakewalks metro in osx. the hardest part is setting up for your studio and saving that setup. your best bet is to write down exactly your needs and what you plan on recording and choose app that can do that by all means checkout the demos first and read the forums on the software packages and get audio interface and midi interface that is compatable with the software you choose.
I think from what you said one of the protools LE systems will fit you best since you already have a working knowledge M-box, Digi 001, Digi 002 depending on your interface needs. Protools is the defacto standard and they have a grat upgrade path.
I will be getting cubase SL this week and will let you know what i think but I am very familar with thier interface.

ivtrk
Jan 22, 2003, 05:40 PM
.

maka
Jan 22, 2003, 06:39 PM
Yes... I normally don't have any trouble understanding a program in a short time, but with Logic I have been unable... When I learned Pro Tools I thought "master one sound editing program, master all"... how untrue :) It seems I'll have to read the manual for this one (as I'm planning on getting it) or get a friend to show me the basics. I love protool's interface, but I hate that it limits you to their hardware, and it's VERY expensive... With logic you can use any hardware (even digidesign's) so it's nice for using it in different setups.

But it's a confusing time for the consumer of audio software on the mac... It seems we're getting close to the time osx can work as a full audio station, but it's still a problem with drivers, plugins, and even still some programs... let's hope things get more stable soon (maybe with Itrack if it has a good combination of power and simplicity)

daveg5
Jan 23, 2003, 01:00 AM
Right now if someone can make a very basic simple to understand 24 track audio recorder with fx, eq, compression, delay and the ability to sync to midi or a real basic 16 track midi sequencer.

that is compatable with most sound cards(including built in), control surfaces and midi interfaces.

A extremely simple interface with very basic cut and paste editing that makes you think you can use your screen as a touch screen
with icons and buttons the reflect a real 24 track recorder and mixer and efx rack. and maybe optional virtual instrument rack.

no busses groups or arcane tech lingo.
sell it for $99-$149
You can always make a complicated pro version later
Unfortunately the companies just dont get it
Power is nice but even Pro users will appreciate a simple program for a quick production that doesnt get in the way of my creative flow.
I dont know how many times i spent trouble shooting just to record audio or get midi to work properly. take some features away simplify.
Maybe add an export screen with the major 4 apps represented at alatter date. but with this program they wont be needed much

frim what i see deck 3.5 demo may be this although i doubt it but will try it out this week along with cubase sl

alset
Jan 23, 2003, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Timothy
Even their simple versions seem not to be simple.


I remain extremely frustrated with the state of the world of Audio apps relative to the prosumer market.

Logic and it's competitors are designed to be intuitive from a recording engineer's perspective (at least on some levels). It was not until I began studying sound arts at a digital media college that many of the design features which had always puzzled me made sense. I will not enter formal training for Logic for another two months, yet I can now navigate with much greater ease through the app.

With rumors of an Apple-branded recording app all around, all you can do is play the waiting game.

My advice would be to look into a short training class for Logic or Digital Performer. I don't know what else to tell you. Until then, read Computer Music magazine (it's expensive because it ships from the UK). They have tutorials on all the major pro-audio apps in every issue and will teach you the basics of what you need to build a home studio.

As far as price-checking is concerned, the inability to locate pricing for almost any pro-audio software and hardware is the norm. I don't know why them market works this way, but I theorize that companies don't want to scare you away.

Also, as an afterthought, I'd suggest searching the Computer Music website. See if you can find tips about setting up, what software works best for your needs, and what pitfalls to watch out for. You may be able to find links to user-groups for the different platforms, where users are generally as helpful and friendly as this community. A link for Computer Music is below.

http://www.computermusic.co.uk/

Dan

alset
Jan 23, 2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by daveg5
Right now if someone can make a very basic simple to understand 24 track audio recorder with fx, eq, compression, delay and the ability to sync to midi or a real basic 16 track midi sequencer.

that is compatable with most sound cards(including built in), control surfaces and midi interfaces.

A extremely simple interface with very basic cut and paste editing that makes you think you can use your screen as a touch screen
with icons and buttons the reflect a real 24 track recorder and mixer and efx rack. and maybe optional virtual instrument rack.

no busses groups or arcane tech lingo.
sell it for $99-$149
You can always make a complicated pro version later


I think this misses the point of simplicity. These are feature which complicate the interface a bit more than you would think. The cost you are targeting is also unrealistic for the amount of development involved in specs requiring such wide compatibility with MIDI and audio interfaces. I don't figure capabilities like this in any product for such a low cost any time soon.

Dan

daveg5
Jan 23, 2003, 10:32 PM
this price i was assuming was for the intro easiest version. maybe a $100 for the easier and $100 more for the easy version.
I admit I dont know how much it will cost to make this product from scratch and I doubt that anybody will attempt but its a nice dream to have.
I certainly think the $799.00(non upgrade price is outrageous)
I am holding off upgrading my logic until it gets a complete overhaul, since it is owned by apple i hope summer about the same time as motu dp4, maybe apple,s itracks, imix, final tracks express or pro or whatever will be what i want. i admit i dont know the cost, profit, of these apps and what price they need to be. all the companies seem to be getting bought up, good or bad? is motu next.
if someone can tap this novice/beginner home recording market with a "logical" easy to learn app for a somewhat reasonable price and markets it to it's intended market-that's everyone with a little talent that wants to record at home and maybe make a hit record without pulling thier hair out why they try to record. they would clean up bigtime.
what would be a good price to pay for such a beast?

daveg5
Jan 23, 2003, 10:33 PM
i almost forgot there are plenty of books and videos for most/all the leading apps. that is correct.

alset
Jan 23, 2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by daveg5
what would be a good price to pay for such a beast?

Try looking at Peak LE. It has a slew of good features, just not nearly the collection that was requested above.

http://www.bias-inc.com/home.html

Dan

wwworry
Jan 24, 2003, 06:58 AM
audiomidi.com is a good place to buy. The have links to demos, press etc and their prices are good.

Chris Adams
Jan 24, 2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by daveg5
I certainly think the $799.00(non upgrade price is outrageous)
I am holding off upgrading my logic until it gets a complete overhaul, since it is owned by apple i hope summer about the same time as motu dp4, maybe apple,s itracks, imix, final tracks express or pro or whatever will be what i want.

I think this a bit unfair on a few counts...

First of all, Logic does pretty much what a pile of boxes costing tens of thousands of dollars used to do. Recording, automated mixing, dozens of top notch effects, built in synths, superb midi facilities, good score writing/printing.....

Second, the upper tier of Gold and Platinum are solidly aimed at pro and semi pro users. People in these categories require sophistication, stability and power all of which are delivered.

Thirdly, there are many apps out there which look delicious, till you find yourself on a run of 18 hour sessions. After that, you'll appreciate that eye candy isn't everything and that in many ways Logic has a very well thought out UI.

Cheers

Chris

Chris Adams
Jan 24, 2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by ivtrk
Sad thing is, I consider myself to be a very technical person. I'm a UNIX sysadmin and a programmer (C, PHP, Perl) and still have a hard time "getting" Logic Audio.

Hopefully, Apple can do to Logic Audio what they did with FCP....make it easy and powerful.

Logic is already both of these things. From my perspective as a musician, engineer and producer it lets me do lots of things I need to do routinely with ease. What is it you don't get? Have you tried the Logic Users Group (a Yahoo group) - many thousands of knowledgable people willing to help. Or Emagic tech support by phone or email... enlightenment is waiting :-)

Cheers

Chris

alset
Jan 24, 2003, 09:05 PM
Chris Adams:

I was great reading your posts. I'm very relieved to have another Logic fan in the thread. Thanks for sharing such well thought out points.

Dan

daveg5
Jan 25, 2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Chris Adams


I think this a bit unfair on a few counts...

First of all, Logic does pretty much what a pile of boxes costing tens of thousands of dollars used to do. Recording, automated mixing, dozens of top notch effects, built in synths, superb midi facilities, good score writing/printing.....

G5: True, And DP and Cubase don't I take it?

Second, the upper tier of Gold and Platinum are solidly aimed at pro and semi pro users. People in these categories require sophistication, stability and power all of which are delivered.

G5: this is true to a point, however its not clearly pointed out in the marketing that it is not aimed at novices since thier ads scream logic and they are owned by Apple(ease of use) and contrary to public opinion People in the novice categories require sophistication, stability and power and "ease of use" all of which are not delivered. If only pro and semi pro's bought logic they would be out of buisiness, point well taken though.

Thirdly, there are many apps out there which look delicious, till you find yourself on a run of 18 hour sessions. After that, you'll appreciate that eye candy isn't everything and that in many ways Logic has a very well thought out UI.

G5: this I disagree with dp3 and vst do more then simply look delicious, they are simply better laid out and more "logical" to understand from a non engineer point of few just look at the mixers for each and you will see what i mean. they too are far from perfect and could use almost as much help as logic.
and basically lets admit whatever app you become more comfortable with and use the most or exclusively the more apt you are to totally dismiss someoneelse's fav app i have not used logic 5.5 in OSX yet (no demo) and apologize if I got any logic users upset as i am one also it is a fine app i just thought of the 4 major daw for Apple it had the least intuitive gui IMHO, and this will surely change wants Apple truly overhauls it.

Cheers
G5:
Actually I agree with you, i have been using logic since it was called notator its still loaded in my atari st 1MB and i have the orignal version 1 box cost me $99) and in OS9.2.2(I am waiting for a new GUI before I upgrade to the OSX version though, no dsp factory support or vst plugin support), although i prefer cubase and dp3 i think logic is deeper more powerful program, in os9 i can use logics effects plus vst plugs in logic (bad dsp factory support though) plus it is a much deeper program if you have the time to get comfy with it.
I dont dislike logic only it cryptic GUI which i admit if i had more time on my hand would probably like it.
Peace Out

Chris