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Convert
Jan 31, 2002, 11:36 PM
Fedex shows that a G4 iMac was shipped to me on January 29. Since then Fedex tracking shows that it has moved out of Taiwan on the same day but nothing else. I highly doubt that it takes 48 hours to ship to the States. Is anybody else's tracking showing the same thing? Mine seems to be at a stand still. :>(

voicegy
Feb 1, 2002, 12:36 AM
Just tell us when you GET IT.:p

(grumpy, grumpy, grumpy me)

Macpoops
Feb 1, 2002, 02:26 AM
Ran into the same thing when i ordered my powerbook. surprised the hell out of me when it showed up right when it was scheduled too. I figured taiwan would take longer too especially with the extra load around the holidays(ordered it as christmas gift) It'll make it in time

GigaWire
Feb 1, 2002, 04:09 AM
Taiwan is notorious for shipping things to the United States. You've got to be extra careful if it comes from Taiwan, because often times, it will come broken or open with customs tape rewrapped around it. I ordered 2 New iMacs and one was broken, and the other one hasn't arrived yet, but now I have to wait another 3-5 weeks. My iPod came with everything intact, oh, except the fact that the iPod was gone! The Taiwanese are tricky. They'd just as soon rip you off as they would smile at you. They think that law and order have no place on their ****ty little island, but they're wrong, and so is Bill Clinton. he said we should be friends with them and trade freely and the like, well this is what you get for getting a bunch of Taiwanese to do an AMERICAN's job.
In short, if you're getting something from Taiwan, you should send it back with a letter saying just how you feel about Apple products being assembled in this lawless-god-forsaken country.

barvow
Feb 1, 2002, 04:17 AM
My iMac has been showing that it was shipped from Taiwan since the 29th, then showed it sat at an airport in Japan for about 24 hours, now in the last hour it has been tracked to Alaska, and there is a delay in customs, if I understand the tracking correctly.

Gigawire, don't hold back about Taiwan, go ahead and say exactly what you feel.

tadpole
Feb 1, 2002, 05:17 AM
you racist ignorant jerk. before you mouth off, when was the last time you did anything good for america or anybody?

stupid *ss sumb*tch, people like you, ignorant jingoist who ***** up the world for the generations like mine.

imagine how the rest of the world sees our polluting the whole dang planet? imagine how the rest of the world views our general billigerance!

sure you can say i'm not patriotic, but hey, i'm joining the Marines upon graduation so i can do something about it, while you sit your lazy *ss around the house b*tching and moaning about how the world is against you and you get to benefit from the work of guys like me.


please shut the ***** up.

tadpole
Feb 1, 2002, 05:29 AM
do you even know anything about the economics of production you ignorant b**tard?

we do production there because the cost of manufacturing is considerably cheaper than it is in the states. if Apple is precious to you, then for them to be around, they have to be competitive, which means cutting costs. outsourcing manufacturing to an island nation with a very well educated labor force while at the same time saving a lot of money is the smart thing to do. furthermore, look around you jerk, many of the professors in the states who teach in Physics and or your typical school of engineering faculty are from Taiwan. Remember all the Chinese/Taiwanese American nobel prize winners?

1998 Princeton University, formerly University of Chicago, Daniel C. Tsui, Physics

1997 Stanford University, Steven Chu, Physics

1976 M.I.T. Samual Chao Chung Ting, Physics

1957 Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton, Chen Ning Yang
1957 Columbia University, Tsung-Dao Lee, both in physics. Incidently the theory that they discovered was to become known as Yang-Mills Theory, very influential in particle physics because they discovered charge parity laws.

I didn't list any Japanese nobel laureates because they were on faculty in Tokyo at the time of their discoveries.

Before you say stupid crap about others, remember what they contributed to your quality of life, *sshole!

Next time you decide to become the perfect example of an uneducated American, do your research. I'm proud to be American, but its people like you that make it hard to explain to the outside world.

kansaigaijin
Feb 1, 2002, 07:57 AM
gigawire you pig

Taiwan is home to the friendliest people, and how do you know your stuff didnt get broken or lost when it got to the states?
I had the good luck to meet about 2000 people from Taiwan recently and nobody had anything bad to say about anybody. If they dont like americans they kept it to themselves. I work with a bunch of americans, they are nice too, how abut you what is your problem?

agreenster
Feb 1, 2002, 11:07 AM
Okay BACK to the main subject:

All oversea shipping is on an extremely slow pace right now. I ordered something (not electronic) from Holland, weighed less than a pound, and it took a month to get to me, and it was a priority package. Our borders are STILL on very high alert (understandably) since 9-11.

Plus, electronic are doubly-checked. Im sure thats why it is taking so long.....hopefully you get your new toy soon. ;)

PS- Everyone just ignore Gigawire. He's just spouting because he's frustrated from the damaged goods that arrived, which we would have all been pissed off by if we had been expecting Apple products, and had them broken or ripped off before we even got them. He's just taking it out on the Taiwanese because thats where they happened to be shipped from, and whom he's had repeat problems with..

Dont scream racism because he would have said the same things about Germans, the French, or any other predominately white country if thats where they had been shipped from. In order for him to technically be racist, he would have to make his statements based solely on race (not nationality) and without any prior judgement of character. He based his anger on actions, not color of skin.

JOE40
Feb 1, 2002, 12:11 PM
Just got my iMac_2002 Flat Panel 800 MHz with Super(Duper) Drive.

Sweet !

My shipping info was EXACTLY the same, 48 hrs from Taiwan. Amazing.

My iPod came from Taiwan too. First shipments seem to be direct from the factory. Way cool !
Came with MAC OS X 10.1.2 Build 5P63
Came with iTunes v2.0.3
Same set up music and screens for WELCOME, Bienevenue, etc. as a new G4 Quicksilver.
And OS 9.2.2
Had to download iPhoto1.0 from Apple Website.
First Software Update showed up was Airport Driver Update 2.0.1

I got mine stock with no add-ons to avoid shipping/build-to-order delays.

I ordered a 512MB RAM upgrade PC133 SO-Dimm from MAC-RAM Direct off of EBAY.
It is the same RAM as the TiBook (PowerBook G4 667Mhz)

voicegy
Feb 1, 2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by GigaWire
...you should send it back with a letter saying just how you feel about Apple products being assembled in this lawless-god-forsaken country.


Hmmm...sounds kinda "race specific" to me, but hey, I'm just here to share a shipping story, too. :)

On another great Mac info board, a person shared the EARTH SHATTERING news that they received their iMac this morning (Friday the 1st).

And for you TRACKING FIENDS out there who have been glued to your computers tracking every move of your iLamps Big Adventure from one God-forsaken country to the next, here's the path that one of 'em took:

Delivered FORT LAUDERDALE FL 02/01/2002 09:38
On FedEx vehicle for delivery FORT LAUDERDALE FL 02/01/2002 08:18
Arrived at FedEx Destination Location FORT LAUDERDALE FL 02/01/2002 08:12
Arrived at FedEx Ramp FORT LAUDERDALE FL 02/01/2002 06:53
Left FedEx Sort Facility MEMPHIS TN 02/01/2002 04:16
Arrived at Sort Facility MEMPHIS TN 02/01/2002 01:26
Left FedEx Ramp ANCHORAGE AK 01/31/2002 16:07
Left FedEx Ramp C.K.S. INTL AIRPORT TW 01/30/2002 16:38
Left FedEx Origin Location TAOYUAN CITY TW 01/29/2002 17:19
Pickup status TAOYUAN CITY TW 01/29/2002 17:03 Package received after FedEx cutoff time


(and, hey! Joe40 got his, too! Congrats!)

They should all be pouring in now....it's rainin' iLamps!

GigaWire
Feb 1, 2002, 12:59 PM
Jesus Christ you people are do fu(king touchy!!! read the language of the post. IT'S A FU(KING JOKE!!!!! And this absolutely blows my mind, assuming I did not like Taiwan, then I am racist???? Against what race you retards??? The Taiwanese race?? You PC Fu(kers are so indignantly pathetic.

Taiwan is notorious for shipping things to the United States.

Read again, does this even make any fu(king sense????

sure you can say i'm not patriotic, but hey, i'm joining the Marines upon graduation so i can do something about it


good for you. Your patroitism is very obvious now.

outsourcing manufacturing to an island nation with a very well educated labor force

cute description for paying well educated people less than you'd pay the dopes working assembly line here.


You grade school academics and lovers of one world peace and all of that sh|t really need to check things out a little before you jump to such extreme conclusions I mean look at the way you talked to me, you must be racist against the Gigawire race!!!! :o
Oh, and since when is America its own race?



rac·ism (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

mymemory
Feb 1, 2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by tadpole
you racist ignorant jerk. before you mouth off, when was the last time you did anything good for america or anybody?

stupid *ss sumb*tch, people like you, ignorant jingoist who ***** up the world for the generations like mine.

imagine how the rest of the world sees our polluting the whole dang planet? imagine how the rest of the world views our general billigerance!...

tadpole... the ignorant is you. I live in Venezuela, I'm Venezuelan, and this country is 10.000 times worst than Taiwan. At list you get something from Taiwan, here you just wont. I've received Christmas post card from the US and Germany in July, and that is because they are not valuable.

Gigawire is frustrating from a 3rld world country as the 80% of the world is because we do not live in the ****ing corny United States. You as a North American Citizen live in a world put in front of your eyes just like in the movie The Matrix, all you are so away of the reality of the world. That is why right now in New York all the politicians have to be protected in the Waldorf Astoria because of the ****ing globalization that is sicking the blod of the rest of the world. While you are masturbating out about the new 1MB back side chache of the new 1GHz processor or worried about the new G5.. My truck was stolen last week 80ft away from the police station, I do not have a job even I'm a audio engineer with a master in Multi Media that cost me 75.000$ in the US (without loan). The US is looking for talibans in the middle east when it should be resolving the problem with the Colombian guerrilla and the narco traffic. The US should be taking care of the president of Venezuela because he is selling oil to the US and financing the Colombian guerrilla because ¿guess what? Las Farc, Hugo Chavez, and Fidel Castro want to create a communist regimen here in South America. But what… the US wont do anything because 80% of the US in under drugs and the gouverment too.

I would say that if any of you spend at list 6 months out of the US, as I did spend 3 years in your country you could have a more realistic view of the world.

In Venezuela you have to be in line by 4AM, wait for 5 hours and wait for 3 months to get an ID. Regular mail doesn’t work. Right now the gouverment apply a law that charged 20% of luxery tax on computers… over the 14.5% taz we paid and over the 30% of shipping. Imagine how much an Apple computer cost down here when for $300 I can go to Miami in 3 hours and buy one.

There are many reasons to be piss with the world about side of the US.

Therefore, I do not like some one saying something about some other nation, UNLESS it has proved, and tadpole had it and must be respected.

Sorry for the post but we have to be clear in some things around here.

decoone
Feb 1, 2002, 01:46 PM
Uhhhhh

Could we get back on subject here?
This thread is REALLY off on an ugly tangent.

:mad:

spikey
Feb 1, 2002, 02:31 PM
Your all as bad as each other.
Yeah taiwan sucks, but it was the west that put them in the sucky position in the first place.The fact that most apple goods are manufactured there is a hint at that.
America sucks too, you go and bastardise everything, you pollute the planet, you think you can be the world police and use terrorism as an excuse to blow up people, you have a stupid leader, you are arrogant, you still seem to think you won WW2, you are wankers. You smother your insecurities with patriotic ************, this prevents you from realising what crap you live under.
If manufacturing anyhting was left up to you, then you would make fat pieces of **** that break the whole time. Like your cars.
If you dont believe me then watch the simpsons, atleast Matt Groening realises this.

Dont go criticising Taiwan when your **** country was part of what made taiwan **** in the first place. You have no right to complain about how **** Taiwan is when you created the mess Taiwan (and alot of the east) is in right now.
you create 50% of the ****ness in this world, then you crave sympathy when people attack you, then you use the attack as an excuse to be the world police. (example: afghanistan, you created the mess, you crave sympathy, you blow the ****ing country up)
Next youll be telling me Nixon wasnt a crook.


Anyway, enough of the rant, any1 knows what happens when you recieve damaged goods from apple??? do they refund or anything?

mischief
Feb 1, 2002, 02:52 PM
When you are shipped a Mac and it's dammaged:

1. Unpack it as little as possible to expose the extent of the dammage. Do not lose any packing.

2. Call 1-800-my-apple and report the dammage in shipping. They will route you around like a dead raccoon for 20-90 minutes until you get to someone who's willing to risk telling you how to return it.

3.Apple will try to get you to return it through a reseller so the dammage can be assessed before re-shipping. If there are no other alternatives, they will ship out a new machine and have you switch the accessories before shipping the old one back. This keeps the accessory pack with the new machine sealed so they can re-pack it once the old machine gets back.

spikey
Feb 1, 2002, 03:58 PM
Sounds like Apples' customer service isnt exactly up to par.

tadpole
Feb 1, 2002, 04:09 PM
i wasn't defending the US of A, i am happy to be an American but in my post i acknowledged our faults, i was jumping on gigawire for blindly attacking another country and being the typical ignorant american. i happen to feel strongly about my country and how it treats the rest of the world like dirt. because the rest of us have to pay for the dumb jerk warhawks in the state department's mistakes. Gigawire as plainly asserted is not from the third world. he's one of us dumb hicks.

dude, i am not blind to your plight in venezualla. i am just sick of american jingoism, please read all of my post before you jump on me, man.

also i was defendin the enormous contribution that the Chinese/Taiwanese have made to academia by example of their long list of nobel prize winners.

anyway, do you guys recommend that i splurge and get a
dp800 now that their a grand lower than last week? i plan on running mandrake on that baby.

spikey
Feb 1, 2002, 04:17 PM
Yeah venezuela missed the point.

This is about Gigawire being a hypochritical ignorant twathead American.
Its one thing to have faults but its another to go and start criticising someone else like that.
(read my last post which goes into more detail on this)

GigaWire
Feb 1, 2002, 04:50 PM
This is about Gigawire being a hypochritical ignorant twathead American

so assuming i do not like taiwanese, then your dislike of americans would make you everything you claim i am. oh and where was i hypocritical? The fact is you're expressing yourself as a typical english wanker that has suddenly realized his country is no longer what it used to be. And by the way, I am not even American.

Xapplimatic
Feb 1, 2002, 04:59 PM
I would like to go on record that the United States record on pollution is more impressive than anywhere in Asia including Taiwan thank you! As having travelled in asia, there are many cities that suffer much worse pollution than in the supposedly worst US city of LA. The US was one of the first industrialized countries to suffer from pollution and it has also been one of the first to mobilize laws, agencies, and technologies to end pollution. It's an ongoing process. Asia right now suffers because they want economy but that doesn't coincide with polution controls which are lets face it, the result of having a good economy which can afford to turn attention and some resources to quality of life issues. Look at Tokyo, more polluted than any US city. Look at some of the other cities in SE Asia like Dhaka, where the air pollution is sooo bad, where the ash and chemicals in the air so thick that in the middle of day you can't see more than one or two city blocks at best, and car headlights are shown as visible beams in the grey-smog air. I wouldn't be complaining about the US record on this. On the whole, we're doing pretty good compared to the East, and things are slowly improving still with increased regulations. Let's really look at the facts instead of spouting all this rhetoric in here about "racism" and all that other nonsense.

spikey
Feb 1, 2002, 05:07 PM
America doesnt have the pollution problem of the East because of a very simple fact.
As far as population, and population distribution goes:
The eastern cities are prodominantly LEDCs.
America is economically developed country.

this is caused by America and capitalist american companies depriving half the world of the human rights they deserve. And dont contradict me, i have seen what most of you would call slave labour if you saw it.

spikey
Feb 1, 2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by GigaWire


so assuming i do not like taiwanese, then your dislike of americans would make you everything you claim i am. oh and where was i hypocritical? The fact is you're expressing yourself as a typical english wanker that has suddenly realized his country is no longer what it used to be. And by the way, I am not even American.

Firstly to put your post into the depths of **** it deserves to be in.

a) i did not say i had a dislike of all americans
b) i didnt base any judgement on what i claim you are. I claim you are a wanker, but i dot not nase the judgements of an entire country on that.
c) Hypochritical: you blame Taiwan for being in the mess it is in, yet you are in an economically priveliged society that has helped destroy the country you are blaming for the mess they are in, and inadvertedly you support the country and companies that put taiwan into their position. You buy things made by companies in the west who take advantage of the poor in taiwan, hence putting taiwan in the position it is in. And then you go an blame Taiwan and the Taiwanese for all this **** they are in???

As for being the typical english wanker. If im a wanker then you have a chronic masturbation problem, i live in england (a relitavely priveleged society) but i do not blame other countries and people for a mess that my country helped cause. hence why i am not the ****ing little ****head you are, go and **** you prick shove your little cok up your own ****ing arse, you know nothing and you are a sadistic little ****.

**** off nobhead.

spikey
Feb 1, 2002, 05:20 PM
And where was the response to them other 80% of my post then Giga****???
did you forget to type out your verbal crap on that???

you dont have a ****ing leg to stand on. **** off with your silly little ideas ****head.

tadpole
Feb 1, 2002, 05:46 PM
Dude, ur my hero, next time you're in Chicago, come to my campus- University of Chicago on 59th and Ellis. www.uchicago.edu

We should have a beer man and check out the phat hardware laying around in my department.

Btw- one of the few beautiful things that we export is Sam Adams, expecially Cream Stout, that smack is grand old good times.

I think that instead of judging people by their quality control problems, we should judge countries by their beer output:

China/Taiwan- Tsin Tao, a good brew- great with sea food.

Germany- Becks and others, just about everything they have kicks *ss, brats with beer....yuuuuummmm!

Japan- Sapporo, just dandy on a hot day, nicely chilled of course.

Canada- well their beer sucks, canucks are just plain weird, BUT they brew Guiness that is exported, and Guiness is DA BEER!

USA- all of our beers (yeasty piss) suck except for the microbrewed stuff from Wisconsin, Sam Adams, Lienies', various Irish wannebbee brews...

UK+Ireland- ah, the home of Guiness, Harpers, etc. Dude, you can't go wrong with beer that's strong, frothy, and just downright creamy.

Mexico- Bohemian, probably the smoothest beer i've ever had. Guys, this stuff is silky!

So, lets all agree that we should judge eachother on the content of our brews and our hearts.

Peace and cheers for a good pint of liquid bread, what God intended for us all. :-)

spikey
Feb 1, 2002, 05:58 PM
Agreed, Beer is the solitary most important thing in the world.
When your friends abandon you, you know you will always have a tempting little friend in beer. Beer wont leave me, and i wont leave beer. We have a solid relationship.

U should try kenyan beer, has an aftertaste of cola.

chibianh
Feb 1, 2002, 05:58 PM
everyone's imacs should arrive soon.. my neighbor got his this morning... without any damaged parts...

kansaigaijin
Feb 1, 2002, 11:32 PM
Everyone just ignore Gigawire.

Right. That's what they said about all the other jerks down the ages who thoughtlessly attack people because of their nationality or race or religion. That is the last thing we should do, cut the guy slack because he is having a bad day, or his stuff got damaged. and goofwire, don't do it for fun either, that is even sicker so dont try to weasel out of your spot you put yourself in because some people call you on your slimey post.
Spikey is right, those people are good enough to assemble your proudest possession, why dont you show some respect? I bet a huge part of your personal identity is wrapped up in your Mac, and those people built it. They also have to figure out what to do with all the nasty waste products left over after they ship it. Oh, I guess thats the price they must pay for your largesse?
Tadpole, I hope you can get out more and see the world before you put on a Marines uniform, that was your plan right? ( If I got the right guy? If I dont then excuse me) Also you can show your patriotism in other ways, join an NGO aid agency, help people get clean water etc. Or go overseas and teach English.
And don't dis canadian beer. It will put you on your ass and under the table. Oh, and back to the Taiwanese, yes there was a Taiwanese people, they got overrun by the japanese and mainlanders and they live with the constant threat of

kansaigaijin
Feb 1, 2002, 11:40 PM
invasion.
Something the USA doesnt really need to worry about. You might get these attacks, but is anybody gonna overrun you? I think not?
Anyway enjoy your new Macs, and respect other people.

me hate windows
Feb 2, 2002, 12:47 AM
:o

-=AsukA=-
Feb 2, 2002, 12:52 AM
When did a web page for computer nerds who think they know anything about stuff that hasent been released yet become such conflicting racism argument?

FACT: this page is ABOUT computers! not people! if you have any information or help that you can shair about computers PLEASE shair them! but im sure i speak for everyone on this BBS and the people reading when i say, NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS! or your "personal" beliefs on ANY topic! we only want the facts! not the OPINIONS! so please shut up, and if you dont know any thing about the topic or computers DONT POST! we dont want to have to see things like this!

PEACE, LOVE, SMOKEING WEED thats what its all about, CHILL People!
even after 9-11 i cant believe we have to still go through this crap!

FACT: people are stupid! SO SHUT THE FÜÇk UP!

AND KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELF!

kansaigaijin
Feb 2, 2002, 01:12 AM
whoa dude smoke some more

we reserve the right to reply to jerks who verbally attack people for no reason.

when th ereason for the thread is just chest beating . . .
"I got my iMac"
"mine is in Anchorage"
it is pretty silly, like the poor guy in Venzuela pointed out, the real value of things seems to be a little distorted here. So it is real easy for it to get derailed.
If there were any facts about the matter, they might matter. But there are none. Lots of people probubly got Mac this week, the just get to work or play.
and they don't misspell the name of a UK clothing retailer when they get upset and have no arguement.

Hemingray
Feb 2, 2002, 02:53 AM
Hey, Meathead! :D

GigaWire
Feb 2, 2002, 02:54 AM
Just for the record, I love Taiwan. 42 products in my house come from Taiwan. The Taiwanese I have dealt with remind me of the ambition found here in the 1930's-50's, then in Japan in 70's-80's.

I showed this thread to 2 taiwanese co-workers of mine today. You know, just to see if maybe it would offend them. They had a good laugh.
Just to clarify, none of the original post was true. I never ordered an iMac. My iPod came completely intact. Bill Clinton never signed a free trade agreement with Taiwan. The only point of the post was humor. Without its context and within the context of the original thread; and all of the shipping ones like it. Gotta think a little to get it. Alas, thinking differently is not a particularly strong attribute of Apple's customers?

Kethoticus
Feb 2, 2002, 04:01 AM
Well, I for one am a proud American and like to think that I'd give my life for this country and its citizens if ever called to. But that doesn't mean that I believe everything this country does is right.

The US has pushed its weight around and made enemies, and I fully understand the international community's problems with us. The greenhouse gas issue, the recent incident with China and our spy plane, etc., all understandably give many out there the impression that we're a nation who doesn't give a damn about anyone but ourselves, that we snub our noses at the rest of the world. And we have.

But none of this justifies the murder of nearly 3,000 civilians. We're at war, where we should be. And I hope that we mercilessly crush our enemies. Watching the miles-long pillar of smoke emanate from what used to be two 107-floor skyscrapers, all from the roof of your apartment does that to you.

The US has given me a good life. And until recently, I lived in the best city in the world, NY. And like it or not, for all the claims of American ignorance, we are at the forefront of computer electronics innovation. Like the Europeans and Asians rule the automobile industry, we rule the computer industry. And I'm sure no one's forgotten that our favorite computer company is based in this great nation. But like this great nation, it is imperfect and sometimes snubs its nose at others. Apple got spanked last year and Steve became more humble. We got spanked--if you want to call it that--a few months ago, and we have been humbled. We now know that we are not immune to getting a bloody nose. This has served as a massive wake-up call, and I think/hope that in the long run, it will make us a better country.

President Bush is already talking about fuel cells and limiting oil usage. Now for whatever his reasons, this is a good thing. He's realized his/our need for friends, to which the NATO patrols over our skies attest. Hopefully this trend will continue, and we'll be even a better country than we were before 9/11. But either way, this is my nation and because it is, I will criticize it when it does badly in an effort to make it better. And I will defend it when someone attacks (verbally or militarily) because it provides me with freedom as well as good living standards.

And let's not forget that if it wasn't for America, there might not even be an iMac. Now if only America could pump out a desktop G5...

Kethoticus
Feb 2, 2002, 04:03 AM
"Alas, thinking differently is not a particularly strong attribute of Apple's customers?"

Ha! Too funny. I think Apple would like to keep it this way, that's for sure. "Think Different. Just as long as you think the way we want you to."

tadpole
Feb 2, 2002, 04:44 AM
i am giving back already without putting on a uniform. i volunteer teach biology in the Chicago Public School system. most of the kids have never heard of mitochondrial DNA. the lack of equitable infrastructure development in our own country is scary, some places in the Appalachia don't even have safe drinking water.

i am putting on a uniform because i am an idealist, i think that one day, perhaps, i would be in a position where i can influence foreign policy. be in a position perhaps where i can bring moderation back into our reactionary system. one day, i would like to be a US senator, right now as a 21 year old student, i'm doing my best to build my creditials. the desire to wear a uniform was not brought on by Sept. 11, rather, i've been deliberating it since my first year of college, i am now a third year. i've put a lot of thought and prayer into it, as well as interviewing lifers and seeing how it affected them. i will always carry the sin of killing upon taking up the rifle and ruck sack, however it is more honorable to earn our lives than to sit back and inherit the benefits of others who have done it for us. what really gets me are the grunts out in the field that actually believe that America The Beautiful is a true idea. Really, America is a selfish nationstate like all nation states, we've been acting on the Smithian notion of enlightened self interest since our inception. there is nothing noble to our world wide pursuits, they all invariablly lead back to lining our pocket books. as a soldier, i will at least be honest enough to see this, as an officer- i will be in a position to minimalize the wanton destruction, if not divert it entirely. change, comes not from revolution- look at the french, they still don't have a worthwhile government or governing ethos- they've funded and shipped arms to just about everyone of their former african colonies during their civil wars. rather change comes from evolution, from within. instead of despising the armed forces, we have to embrace it and bring it back into the fold of the people. when voter turn out is so low, and faith in the government wanes generally, can we really afford to disengage ourselves from service? looking upon history, we may use the romans as an example, the alienation of the armed forces from the Senate under the centralization of rule under one consul- soon to be emperor is what lead to the empire and the eventual downfall of the republic and later the empire. the left wing will not agree with me, and they will seek to use protest to affect change, protest after the vietnam war with an already disaffected public leads not to an enlightened acceptance of your mores, rather it leads to public condemnation of your mob action (WTO protests, Davos protests, etc. ). the people on the right would simply want to continue to rape the world. in the center are guys like me who really want to make a difference but get crapped on because we cannot make either sides happy.

dudes, look, we are disliked not because we're americans, but because we're billigerant about it. the state of union address did two things, it set back the move towards the left in Iran- they want to be accepted in the world community again and the moderates are already having a hard time dealing with the religious right hardliners without us using a WWII analogy to put back years of progress. the second thing it did was put back years the dialogue between north and south korea. fellas, we do not have a thinking leader, the only voice of moderation on the whole Bush pseudo administration is Colin Powell, and he is drowned out by the war hawks like Condi Rice and Rumsfield.

we are not the world's police, nobody asked us, in truth we are a global empire, militarially and economically. because we have created this role for ourselves, we need to be agents of progress not deprivation. To the modern Romans, I only ask that we be cautious of the rise of the executive powers that be, that we give the power back to the Senate and the people. As a Soldier of this new republic, I want to serve the idea of The People, not the lies that we are fed.

There is only one dominant species on our rock, humans, and only one habitable planet in our system, Earth. Lets start behaving sentient.

spikey
Feb 2, 2002, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Kethoticus
Well, I for one am a proud American and like to think that I'd give my life for this country and its citizens if ever called to. But that doesn't mean that I believe everything this country does is right.

The US has pushed its weight around and made enemies, and I fully understand the international community's problems with us. The greenhouse gas issue, the recent incident with China and our spy plane, etc., all understandably give many out there the impression that we're a nation who doesn't give a damn about anyone but ourselves, that we snub our noses at the rest of the world. And we have.

But none of this justifies the murder of nearly 3,000 civilians. We're at war, where we should be. And I hope that we mercilessly crush our enemies. Watching the miles-long pillar of smoke emanate from what used to be two 107-floor skyscrapers, all from the roof of your apartment does that to you.

The US has given me a good life. And until recently, I lived in the best city in the world, NY. And like it or not, for all the claims of American ignorance, we are at the forefront of computer electronics innovation. Like the Europeans and Asians rule the automobile industry, we rule the computer industry. And I'm sure no one's forgotten that our favorite computer company is based in this great nation. But like this great nation, it is imperfect and sometimes snubs its nose at others. Apple got spanked last year and Steve became more humble. We got spanked--if you want to call it that--a few months ago, and we have been humbled. We now know that we are not immune to getting a bloody nose. This has served as a massive wake-up call, and I think/hope that in the long run, it will make us a better country.

President Bush is already talking about fuel cells and limiting oil usage. Now for whatever his reasons, this is a good thing. He's realized his/our need for friends, to which the NATO patrols over our skies attest. Hopefully this trend will continue, and we'll be even a better country than we were before 9/11. But either way, this is my nation and because it is, I will criticize it when it does badly in an effort to make it better. And I will defend it when someone attacks (verbally or militarily) because it provides me with freedom as well as good living standards.

And let's not forget that if it wasn't for America, there might not even be an iMac. Now if only America could pump out a desktop G5...


America was right to do something about afghanistan, but did they acknowledge that it was their own fault in the first place for causing it?...no.
Did they acknowledge that they employed bin ladin in the first place?...no.
Do they acknowledge that the extremist militant islamic groups' hatred of america was partly their own doing???...no.
And you can say this after its americas own fault for the situation they are in.
"And I hope that we mercilessly crush our enemies."

America creates the problem. America looks for sympathy. America then blows up a country including innocent civilians. America doesnt aknowledge that they caused the problem in the first place and then tries to act as the world police, attempting to be the hero in their "war against terrorism".
America created the problem of terrorism, because of americas blunders thousands of lives were lost in both NY and afgahnistan (one of the poorest countries in the world). America doesnt even apologise.

During all this america isnt realising that they are making the world even more pissed off in the way that they had done before now. They arent even learning from their mistake, Surely this american arrogance cant hide the mistakes they have made?

America caused the problem, and innocent people are getting hurt while america tries to fix it. when they "mercilessly crush their enemies" they are hurting people that dont deserve to be hurt. Instead of hurting these people they could just learn from their mistakes in the first place, but instead they carry on with this arrogance, and bomb innocent people in one of the poorest countries in the world.



Gigawank:

Thats a really nice way to try and weasel out of the situation..... were have i heard that before....hmmmm..... oh yes, thats right, its exactly like somehting the ubergimp john123 would say. Just give up ****head, you lost the argument, we all proved to you your a wanker with stupid ideas.

"The only point of the post was humor"
Take a hint ****head, it werent ****ing funny. The only joke here is you. Go and **** off. You are a worthless prick. Go away, nobody wants you, ****ing ****.

spikey
Feb 2, 2002, 09:50 AM
Marines?, good for you tadpole. Its good to get out there and learn about the world. I decided to travel, and i learnt a hell of alot from it. And i will do it again next year too.

Oh, and yeah to some extent america rules the computer industry. But did you know that most quality people in computing actually come from india?
Hence, sun microsystems i suppose.

tadpole
Feb 2, 2002, 10:57 AM
this is true, spikey. a lot of tech support is actually routed through india. when you call for a computer related problem, you generally don't know where it is being picked up, the tech support outlets employ language training so its employees can actually mimick your flat yet comforting midwestern accent or the southern drawl. they have an extremely educated work force there and we import a lot of engineers from their best universities.

as far as computer leadership is concerned, the Japanese (NEC consortia) were early adapters of vector computing on the desktop before Apple even made a big deal about it with Altivec. Also the new EU fiber back bone is amazing, it links together the least developed EU to the most developed EU members. Transmission rates are from T3 to at least OC-12, if not higher.

Also, the two best things we have in computing in this country are our research universities- a lot of the talent there are raided from international sources- two years ago we got a couple of Fields Medal mathematicians from U Moscow for the UofC, privately funded basic research from IBM and quality products from IBm and SUN. It used to be that Digital Electronics was a big player with their Alpha processors, but Compaq is canning the whole Alpha line for Intel processors. What I would like to see is Apple buying up the loose Alpha engineers before Intel picks them all up, and custom build a 64bit workstation class cpu. Alpha is arguably the best marketed cpu out there, its SpecINTs are typically off the charts. What makes the AMD chipsets so fast and competitive for slower mhz than intel is the fact that they're based on the EV-6/7 protocols from Alpha.

Imagine a Mac with a quad Alpha configuration with 4 to 8 megs of L2 full speed Cache each proc, 8 gigs of ECC DDR, a raid array of Fiber arbitrated loop SCSI HD's, etc. etc. all for under 6 grand. Suddenly, IBM's RS/6000 and the Sun Blade 1000 look impractical for their costs. Apple can do this, they have the tech bawls, but I wonder if marketting has the talent. Another thing- put the Aqua code on GPL, give it to the talented masses to tune and prune. If Apple can produce fast workstations of truly Pro specs with a truly open OS that conforms to true Open Software Foundation Unix standards, we would have the beginning of a insurrection. SGI is weakening, SUN and IBM are pulling down the high end, HP is holding its own. Come on Apple, you know you want to take SGI's place in the graphics industry, you know you want to take market shares away from Sun and IBM, or better yet, work with them to ensure that Intel and HP never make it again. There's enough juice in the market for three big players, come on Apple step up to the plate! You know you want higher margins than the home market or bush league graphics!

JUST DO IT, APPLE!!!! Steve Jobs, if you're out there, dude, show how manly you are and build us a huge freaking machine that is balls out fast, balls out packed with mad fast workstation graphics, balls out sexy and simply ballsy! Dump Motorola, pick up Alpha, and let AMD and IBM fab the babies for you. unix software can just be recompiled, so you won't be hit too hard if you suddenly have an uber proline. Forget G5, dream bigger dreams.

GigaWire
Feb 2, 2002, 12:24 PM
Thats a really nice way to try and weasel out of the situation..... were have i heard that before....hmmmm..... oh yes, thats right, its exactly like somehting the ubergimp john123 would say. Just give up ****head, you lost the argument, we all proved to you your a wanker with stupid ideas.

"The only point of the post was humor"
Take a hint ****head, it werent ****ing funny. The only joke here is you. Go and **** off. You are a worthless prick. Go away, nobody wants you, ****ing ****.

I am just curious, what ideas did I present? What argument did I engage in? I find, at the very least, humor in your **** riddled replies indicating your capacity for expressing yourself.

As for America deserving what happened, you are a stupid mother fu(ker for thinking that. How the he|| can you say that? You sack of sh|t. Not a single person killed by those bastards made a single policy decision that caused them to ever deserve what happened. So kindly fu(k off you degenerate piece of sh|t! I hope you choke on your own vomit next time you're out pubbing.

kansaigaijin
Feb 2, 2002, 12:42 PM
I read a credible report that the US (cia) was in 6 monthes before the Soviets.
another Quiet american story.
also Day of Deceit proves Roosevelt knew about the threat to Pearl Harbour.
It is also very interesting if you are into codes and radio. and spooks.

spikey
Feb 2, 2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by GigaWire


I am just curious, what ideas did I present? What argument did I engage in? I find, at the very least, humor in your **** riddled replies indicating your capacity for expressing yourself.

As for America deserving what happened, you are a stupid mother fu(ker for thinking that. How the he|| can you say that? You sack of sh|t. Not a single person killed by those bastards made a single policy decision that caused them to ever deserve what happened. So kindly fu(k off you degenerate piece of sh|t! I hope you choke on your own vomit next time you're out pubbing.


What argument did u engage in???
you are a little blind ****, that or you are trying to ease yourself out of the pit of ************ you landed yourself in.
What??? dont you see what argument you are involved in what??? are you blind what??? do you like getting beaten to **** on these forums what??? if you have any ****ing sense ****head then you will just give up spouting out the useless crap you call intelligent debate, you are ****, scum, crap a waste of a human life. What??? dont you understand what i am saying ****head? You know you are in this argument, you know you have already lost it ****head, SO PLEASE EVERY1 HERE AND SHUT THE **** UP.

America deserving what had happened to them???

YOU LITTLE ****ING PRICK, DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING??? YOU ARE TOO CAUGHT UP IN TRYING TO BEAT ME IN THIS ARGUMENT YOU HAVE TO BREAK WHAT I SAY.
DID I SAY AMERICA DESERVED IT??? NO.
DID I IMPLY AMERICA DESERVED IT??? NO.
DID I IN ANY WAY POSSIBLE SUGGEST THAT AMERICA DESERVED IT??? NO.
IF YOU WOULD BOTHER TO EVEN READ ANYBODY ELSES ****ING THREADS THEN YOU WOULD REALISE THAT
A) YOU ARE A NOB
B) I WAS SAYING THAT AMERICA BROUGHT THE MAJORITY OF IT ONTO THEMSELVES.

LISTEN!!!! NOT AMERICA DESERVED IT
LISTEN!!! AMERICA BROUGHT IT ONTO THEMSELVES.

DO YOU STILL NOT UNDERSTAND ****HEAD.

I WILL REPEAT IT FOR THOSE HARD OF UNDERSTANDING.
LISTEN!!! AMERICA BROUGHT IT ONTO THEMSELVES.


SO GO AND READ MY THREADS BEFORE YOU AND YOUR SILLY LITTLE AMERICAN ARROGANCE MAKES UP ************ ABOUT ME HATING AMERICA. YOU AND YOUR PATRIOTIC: "I PLEDGE ALEIGANCE TO THE FLAG", ATTITUDE IS EXACTLY WHAT CAUSED THE SITUATION WE ARE DEBATING YOU BLIND LITTLE ****.

GO AND **** OFF WITH YOUR ****ING DUMBASS ARROGANT MIDDLEAMERICA IDEAS AND REALISE THAT YOU LIVE IN A COUNTRY THAT IS SO ARROGANT IT CAN KILL INOCCENT LIVES AND NOT APOLOGISE FOR THE SITUATION IT CAUSED.
YOU ARE SCUM.

COME ON THEN GIGA****HEAD, GIVE ME ANY PART OF WHAT I HAVE SAID THAT SAYS AMERICA DESERVED IT. COME ON THEN???

INSTEAD OF THINKING OF THOSE INNOCENT AFGHANISTANIS AND NEWYORKERS THAT HAVE DIED, AND ADMIT THAT AMERICA WAS TO BLAME YOU ARE TOO ****ING FIXATED ON THINKING THAT AMERICA CAN DO NO WRONG IN THIS.
NEWSFLASH ****HEAD: YOUR PRECIOUS ****ING COUNTRY HAS KILLED OVER 3000 LIVES, AND IT CANT APOLOGISE FOR IT.

GO ON GIGATWAT, NAME ME A ****ING THING I HAVE SAID THAT SAYS AMERICA HAS DESERVED IT.

YOUR THE ONE THAT WILL "KINDLY **** OFF", YOU ARROGANT SACK OF CRAP. GO ON YOU RETARDED PIT OF CUM.
GO ON ****HEAD **** OFF, YOU KNOW NOTHING, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME, YOU ARE A ****ING ****HEAD. EVERY1 HERE HAS SAID THAT, CANT YOU TAKE THE FACT THAT SOMEONE LESE IS RIGHT OTHER THAN YOU, ****ING ARROGANT WANKER.

TAKE A HINT: **** OFF.

spikey
Feb 2, 2002, 04:27 PM
Cant you take it gigawire???
someone is more intelligent than you, well, huh???
cant you take it that i have taken you apart on this thread???
you dont have a leg to stand on ****head, all that is left of you in this debate is your ****ed up carcass.

So go on then ****head, quote me ****head, give me some evidence of the ************ you spout out, go on then ****head, you have nothing left to ************ about on this thread,
Go on then, where did i say america deserved it?

Go on ****head, you lost this 5 posts ago, you really think you can lift your corpse out of the hole your digging?

Go on then ****head, prove you ignorance to us all, once and for all.

Phaedrus
Feb 2, 2002, 04:35 PM
This thread is beginning to remind me of something a wise old Asian man once told me: "This argument like special olympics--no matter who win, everbody still retarded."

spikey
Feb 2, 2002, 04:42 PM
guess ill just have to be content with winning then.

JoeG4
Feb 2, 2002, 05:01 PM
It is obviously true normally the CIA knows about most incidents before they really happen, unfortunately I bet they normally use those kind of things to promote a president's fame.

*shrug* Ever read a book called The Brethen? The national security maniger lets some terrorism happen so that the president they're sponsoring can look better.

sure, it's a mean thought, but it could happen. There are a few things most people don't look at:

1. Why didn't they scramble to ground all planes and such in the US, protect the groundspace when the first plane hit... Cia should have known just by the threat.

2. How could the planes have been off course for so long without anyone noticing, nor caring in the first place? Something was fishy.

3. Okay, just had to put 3 in.

Okay, honestly, I don't know, I don't really care to find out, but after reading a book it gets you wondering.

Perhaps I'm wrong, I just think of way too many things that went wrong.

And.... If the FCC knew about the other plane (radio controllers) being off course, why didn't they try stopping it right there before the second building got hit?

Do you know how many people in NY are going to get cancer now because all that damned asbestos and ashes in the air?!

I could ramble on and on about the disaster, but I have other thoughts, one of them how great the US is, and on the other hand, how horrible it is as well!

Here in the United States you have 3 main classes, the poor, the middle class, and the rich. You have opportunity to get rich quick, you can marry someone rich, and you can marry anyone you want.

In many foreign countries you're either rich or poor. The rich people make their own rules, play around with the government, and screw the poor out of every chance they get.

Also in many other countries you don't have any backup (wellfare, social security, etc, etc), to save you from total poverty. Yes, I agree it isn't much, but if you're starving in most other countries, too bad.

But I also have to admit, the US is one of the worst as well, the political system is currupt (I strongly believe bush wouldn't be president if he hadn't CHEATED!!!!!!), the education system is a failing disaster (look who's in power.. principals of most schools, treasurers, all the scandals, all the substandard buildings, all the teachers who don't even teach)

I could go on and on, but there's still a point to be made, and that's that no country is perfect.

Here in the US we also have pollution standards, but not a single factory seems to exist in the US anymore, oops.

But there are some factories, and those that exist have low pollution, whereas the other foreign countries are controlled by the rich, who can do whatever the hell they want.

But we still have our laws, thanks to them, and some good law control, we have the safest place in the world to drive, you can still, almost, walk in the streets at any time, and everyone can have a place to live, if they try.

It's all a catch 22, but honestly, normally the US and Canada get on the lucky side.

Canada, though, is probably (not sure), even better, since they rarely seem to have problems.

However, many countires get terrorism, all the time, the US is not alone. *shrug*

My point is made, I hope :)

GigaWire
Feb 2, 2002, 05:55 PM
I concede defeat to the ever brilliant spanky. His use of ****ING english far exceeds any ability I could ever hope to aspire to. His arguments, so air tight, you'd think them to've been created in a vacuum. His logic, his reasoning, light years beyond any man woman or child alive this day. His contradictory nature so captivating its ironic. Spank, here's to you pal!!! You're the winner, and if i could, why I'd take you out and buy you a fresh baked cookie!!!!


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

voicegy
Feb 2, 2002, 06:18 PM
Close this post. It's so over and unwinable and tired and childish and yawn inducing.:o :rolleyes:

Kethoticus
Feb 2, 2002, 06:42 PM
No, this isn't about this forum. It's about what the US gov't's calling the 9/11 attacks. But I have to admit that I have, too, thought about the possibility that we actually let it happen. We received several warnings from other countries that such an attack was being planned. The CIA ignored them all. Now that's either a deliberate lowering of guard or utter arrogance. In the latter case, we were humbled for sure. In the former case, I'd probably wind up becoming as anti-American as they come, being betrayed by my own government.

The US did admit to some things, however. Not many, but some. We have admitted to training bin Laden in the first place and making him what he is today. We also admitted to leaving some countries in the dust apparently after making some promises to help them or something. Not sure of the precise details.

But I do see that we've supported corrupt regimes overseas, like the Shah of Iran. We make a mockery of smaller, less industrialized societies at environmental summits. I'm fully in support of our support of Israel, but that also is yet another reason for our having ME enemies. Too bad for that.

As for killing many innocents in Afghanistan, I'm not sure what you mean. I do know that we've hit some innocents over there, but none of them--according to our news media anyway--was deliberate. Imperfect intelligence or technology--or both--caused those. But the way I see it, that's war. It sucks. Innocent people die. Innocents died on our soil. But at least our killing of innocent Afghan civilians was neither as deliberate, nor as numerous. And one good thing coming out of this is that hopefully (and they have many hurdles to overcome), Afghanistan will have a modernized society there before too long.

Also, while I do believe that we are at some fault for our current quandry, I also believe that we have no choice now but to fight. These people have said that they will not rest until America is gone. Some of them want to establish a totalitarian, global Islamic society. We MUST win this war. But we also must reevaluate some of our foreign policies, particularly in how we push our weight around when it is completely unnecessary or unjustified. For crying out loud, I heard a report that during our Kosovo bombings, we had poisonous plutonium in our missiles. Why was that necessary? All we've succeeded in doing was poisoning the water supply to something like 5,000 people over there.

But unfortunately, as someone pointed out, all countries do this to some degree or another. People do this to each other in their homes for goodness' sake. It's an unfortunate aspect of human nature. But considering the weapons available today and how easy it is to deliver them, it's like everyone in the house now has an oozie (or however you spell it). We need to be more sensitive and more mindful of just how we're affecting others, not just for the immediate term, but for the long term. The country we step on today may become our super-power enemy in the next generation.

Whatever... here's to a fair-minded US, truly benign in nature and future-minded in all its policy-making--but mean as a mother bear who lost her cubs when we need to be.

voicegy
Feb 2, 2002, 07:01 PM
It's spelled "Uzi"

Which is what should be used on this entire post.

Except the parts that are relevant to the topic title.:o

tadpole
Feb 2, 2002, 07:37 PM
WTF?

What has supporting Israel ever done for us? They sunk our intel boat during the Yom Kipur war, and did we do anything? NO. They exacerbate their problems with Zionist jingoism, they billigerantly attack their arab neighbors in selfish land grabs, they commit mass murder in the refugee camps, and we look the other way. We fund them, they are first in line for all of our foreign aid, Egypt is second....hmmmmm...we suddenly have our hands in all the major players pants, gee dude, that seem ethical to you? Of course they're in a constant state of seige, they raid, pillage and plunder, of course they're going to make enemies. We need to back off from that part of the ME, clamp down on all trade, we're talking total isolation of Israel, Palestine, Lebonon, and let them fight it out on their own. hey, we should be doing that for all civil wars, just keep 3rd party players out and let the primary agents commit their crap. The French supplied arms to the Hutu's during the Rwandan genocice, look what happen. We supply arms to the Zionist extremist state, and look at all the friends it earned us. Our European allies aren't very keen on Israel, the Dutch have been talking about hauling Sharon's rear to a crimes against humanity tribunal. But you know what, there's not much in the way of justice when the only 800 pound global gorilla says its good to let the little Zionist pipsqueek raise hell. Sure the Israeli army is well trained and equipped, but what would it be without American equipment?

Furthermore, why not simply take Jeruselum by a UN force with mandate to exterminate and turn it into an international city. The UN needs more bite, it needs a standing army, it needs the ability to use lethal force. A Chicago public school kindergartner can kick the rears of an entire UN detachment of blue helmets, they're a freaking joke, and why do you ask? Because USA doesn't want commitment so it waters down all the mandates to cover its huge huge huge ass.

Look, it only takes some will, and a lot good can be done. I mean, we are capable of projecting enormous violence, look at the Battle of the Black Sea, at the cost of 19 american lives, over a thousand of the somalis were eradicated. that's a huge return for the investment. I'm not saying that the Mog was a good thing, I'm saying that we have the ability to really flex some muscles, but mostly we ***** foot around. Bush can and should yank the choke collar on Israel. The elimination of Arafat would only leave a power vacuum and a perfect excuse for the Israelis to occupy all of Palestine. Incidently that was the rationale behind leaving Saddam in place, he's more predictable than a power vacuum. Because a power vacuum would have led to a civil war with definite Kurdish involvemnt, drawing Turkey into the war, they invoke the Nato Charter and the rest of the west would be in Baghdad within days of Saddam's elimination.


Come on people, look at the fat picture. If we are against terrorism, then certainly we should not condone those commited by even our allies.

Also, let me go on record as saying that I have nothing against the Jews, I have Jewish buddies here on campus. I do have a problem with people using religion to justify the continuity of their political system. We accused the Taliban of religious extremism, what about Israel? When ever there is an attack against Israel, it becomes an assault against Judaism. What BS is that?

Kethoticus
Feb 2, 2002, 08:00 PM
... and I do need to complete the formulation of my opinions of Israel. But currently, they are the only real democratic state--or one of the few--in the area. And for religious reasons I believe Israel needs to and has the right to exist. Am I saying that they have the right to terrorize their enemies? No. Just like we do not. Like I said, I need to complete the formulation of my opinions here, but currently, I do support our alliance with Israel. Isolating Israel is frighteningly reminiscient of Biblical prophecies of Israel surrounded by enemies on all sides in the last days. I do not believe that it will be in our best interests to isolate them. Criticize them when they do something wrong, perhaps. But break off from them? No. Nor am I sure that I support a powerful UN, either, again, all for purely personal, religious reasons. But this really is a debate best reserved for another posting area. If you wish to discuss this with me further, please feel free to e-mail me privately. This thread--that I've contributed to--is light years away from anything having to do with the Macintosh.

voicegy
Feb 2, 2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Kethoticus
If you wish to discuss this with me further, please feel free to e-mail me privately. This thread--that I've contributed to--is light years away from anything having to do with the Macintosh.

Yay! Ding Dong the Post is Dead...

Kethoticus
Feb 2, 2002, 09:39 PM
Ya know, it takes a bit of deliberate effort to enter one of these threads. What's forcing you to do it? I do agree that it's completely irrelevant to the site as a whole, and that's why I suggested that tadpole e-mail me privately. But you really don't need to be here if you don't want to be.

spikey
Feb 3, 2002, 02:19 PM
like kethoticus said, this is irrelevant, but it is bringing up some interesting points. Ignore the cocky little ****s who dont have anything to add.

This beer is to you gigawire. ;)