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jtt
Feb 28, 2006, 11:23 AM
What are you all doing to to create new business these days?
Are you seeing a lot of jobs going to competitors that are charging next-to-nothing and getting rewarded more and more gigs? $50 for a logo, $100 for a brochure, $300 for a ten minute video! This has been plaguing myself and most of the Creative Freelance industry where iAm and it is getting extremely frustrating.



rjphoto
Feb 28, 2006, 02:26 PM
I supplement my Freelance work with a full time corporate job.

I'd rather be out shooting photos or video on a lovely day like today.

I had a mentor tell me once that photographers were the worst when it came to getting new business. We "work" in the advertising business, but we fail to advertise our own services.

My resume' includes newspaper photography and publication, corporate video production from big crew to one-man-band, publication layout (I DON"T DESIGN, the client does that, I just lay it out...), and now event photography and wedding video documentary (not the fancy 2 camera stuff with slow motion and split screen moves).

I'm not going hungry but I drive a '97 Civic.

My wife says I don't charge enough, but I'm not the guy getting rewarded with more and more gigs...

RideIt
Feb 28, 2006, 02:26 PM
I charge a flat rate of 50.00 an hour which is cheap, plus I have 14 years of printing experience. Depends on your area and what the going rates are..

Do you know what people are chargingin your area?

the-hen
Feb 28, 2006, 03:34 PM
I'm a graphic designer in Cape Town, South Africa. Some of the issues seem to be the same globally I guess!! It's a lot easier designing for and marketing the client than marketing your own services, I find. There are flexibility benefits over being in a full time job.

jtt
Feb 28, 2006, 03:39 PM
I charge a flat rate of 50.00 an hour which is cheap, plus I have 14 years of printing experience. Depends on your area and what the going rates are..

Do you know what people are chargingin your area?

It seems to have gone to a per project bid and it's not even worth doing some of gigs available. I am going to a job for free next week just to take it away from the low-baller.

eclipse525
Feb 28, 2006, 04:04 PM
I feel that it's always been about "who you know". I believe the best way to market yourself is to go out and socialize as much as you can. Hopefully you'll make many friends and/or acquaintances. Along the way, telling EVERYONE what you do, giving business cards and making sure you're website is up-to-date. IMO

~e

Josh
Feb 28, 2006, 04:22 PM
I used to do freelance web design nearly 50/50 with my full time job.

But you are exactly right: there are people who have the time and budget to be able to do logos for $50, brochures for $100, and entire web sites for $75.

Everybody and their brother can make a website these days. Not everyone can customize a CMS, produce accessible and compliant code, and use entirely CSS-based design; but these are all terms that fly over clients' heads and they don't care. They see cheap prices and go for it.

$1000 for a professional site is on the cheap side of things. But for every person who builds a site worth the amount, there are at least 10 others who would make a lesser site for $75, and that is appealing to a lot of clients seeking freelance designers.

I still do the occasional freelance job, but it's not a rewarding process, and I don't actively seek work anymore because it's a waste of my time.

I focus strictly on my full-time job and school.

eclipse525
Feb 28, 2006, 07:08 PM
I'd also like to add......

......kids in and right of school, don't know any better and will work for nothing, which intern cheapens the industry. They are thrilled to actually be getting paid for work but they don't realize they are hurting there future and industry as a whole. Of-course that is just one aspect. Another aspect is the respect they have for what we do. They truly believe that Design is trivial and more of an annoyance. Oh God, this can go on forever, I'll just stop now.

~e

dornoforpyros
Feb 28, 2006, 07:28 PM
meh I freelance occasionally for $25 an hour. I make enough at work that I don't really need that money. But it also means I'm not gonna waste my free time being low balled on the work I do.

jtt
Feb 28, 2006, 07:52 PM
Thanks everyone. iJust do not want to go back to a cubicle in an agency full time, but it looks like iMight have to.

motherduce
Feb 28, 2006, 10:09 PM
Thanks everyone. iJust do not want to go back to a cubicle in an agency full time, but it looks like iMight have to.
where do you live/work?

I did freelance sites and eLearning for 6 years, until my 2nd kiddo came along and I needed a guaranteed income so we could budget better. I miss the days of freelancing and running my own business, but you do what you gotta do. Now I do occasional sites and help out some old colleagues with eLearning and Flash work. It pays okay, and keeps my name fresh, and also keeps me on top of my game for the most part.

Depending on the cities around you, there could definitely be untapped resources and potential clientele you just don't know about yet.

digitaldean
Mar 1, 2006, 07:23 AM
I firmly believe that it's who you network with that will get you your clients.

Gave up on guru.com, snaplance.com, et al. There are WAY too many lowballers out there.

Fortunate that I have a source that I do a lot of print and web work with. He has been a major reason why my business has taken off. I have worked full time in prepress industry for over 20 years and run part time freelance for the past 10.

Have lost jobs to lowballers, but a lot of time I end up getting their work due to poor quality/service.

Struggled for years trying to get any work. After I got a few jobs here and there, my clients referred me to others and it has slowly, gradually grown.

I do website development, print production consulting plus a few other odds and ends.

waynesun
Mar 1, 2006, 08:18 AM
one right here<-
i charge 20-50$ per site design for friends and former customers(pending on price range they would want it in + time and effort to make a site), otherwise 50-100 for new customers, logos are free, sometimes range from 5-10 dollars depending on effort put into it, brochures are 5 bucks
i'm 14, dont need to be earning that much money :D

ATD
Mar 1, 2006, 08:27 AM
You know there is no way around that type of positioning, if you compete with guys that do $50 logos you will end up doing $50 logos (or less). Try targeting clients that the agency you would be working for would go after, after all they are billing your work at 2.5x to 3.5x what they pay you. Or position yourself as a small design firm, a specialist or look for a partnership that works. Unfortunately these days anybody with a computer + CS can call themselves a designer. What I'm suggesting is not quick and easy but thats the beauty of it. ;)

i.Feature
Mar 1, 2006, 10:15 AM
Here's my two cents:

I worked for 6 years as an art director and a graphic designer. Then decided to jump out on my own. I had always done small freelance projects that i found interesting. But this was the first time i was really going to depend on it. I decided on a very reasonable hourly rate($45/hr). It was low enough to look very attractive to people who couldn't afford "shops" and not too high that someone who normally got their cousins sons nephew to do something might consider highering a professional. I have found that to be successful and i mean really job replacing succesful you need to be a sales person/secretary at least 50% of the time. This means one of two things. You take on less work or work extra hours. Usually you have to do the second to stay afloat. I did this for just over a year. It was very draining. At times very rewarding. And I would have kept it up(possibly hiring someone to handle the sales in another year or two) but i got offered a sweetheart of a job that i just couldn't turn down. Not having to be a sales person is a big weight off my shoulders. Anyways here's a few tips:

1. Don't over or under price yourself. Find out what going rates are in your area and try and land yourself somewhere in the middle.

2. Don't price per job. You'll end up having to do every brochure or logo or whatever at that first quoted price. Clients don't really get the whole it take longer to do a 4 page brochure than a 2 page brochure. Seems obvious but to many a brochure is a brochure and they both should cost x amount.

3. Don't be afraid to say no. If someone tells you "well my cousins sons nephew has a computer and will do it for $100". Politely decline their job and explain that while it may get done for that price they'll be missing out on your experience and expertise. Also tell them that if they aren't happy or need some advice they can always contact you. At your hourly rate.

4. Save every single reciept. Everyone! You will be amazed what end up being write offs.

5. Network and sell to everyone.

6. If you feel you need to do free work to get experience. Do not do it for someone who "really" can pay. Do it for a charity or church or something along those lines. They may not be able to pay but they can often issue charitable reciepts for your donated time(money).

I'll probably think of more but right now i'm enjoying not thinking about freelance.

jtt
Mar 1, 2006, 11:38 AM
Well, the advice makes me feel more encouraged to journey on and try some different avenues for new clientele .

I was also an art director in a decent size agency for over six years and absolutely loved the beginning of my freelancing stint with the freedom and all. I still love it and don't mind mind putting up ridiculous hours because this is what iLove and pretty much all iKnow.

But people love prices like this guy (no offense):

waynesun one right here<-
i charge 20-50$ per site design for friends and former customers(pending on price range they would want it in + time and effort to make a site), otherwise 50-100 for new customers, logos are free, sometimes range from 5-10 dollars depending on effort put into it, brochures are 5 bucks
i'm 14, dont need to be earning that much money

People's expectations on quality have really diminished along with realizing that you get what you pay for – Professionalism

And I'm not the only creative in this local boat.

i.Feature
Mar 1, 2006, 11:56 AM
People's expectations on quality have really diminished along with realizing that you get what you pay for – Professionalism

And I'm not the only creative in this local boat.

This is true which is why i say don't be afraid to say no. You really don't want clients like that. You'll end up working much harder than you have to and your time as you know is money.

Alot of the time when you say sorry but i can't do it for that price people will ask why. That gives you a great opening to explain that you are a proffesional with x amount of experience and that people like "x big name" depend on and appriciate your experience and quality. Sometimes people jump when you mention a big boy. They all want to be big boys too. "The guy who's doing my ad, also does stuff for "insert big name here"

rjphoto
Mar 1, 2006, 12:23 PM
Be carefull who you network with.

I was "invited" to help start a group called AD2 which was to be a younger version of the local Ad Club.

After a couple of years of being pimped out for the club and not getting work from ANY members I dropped out.

"Oh, we love the photos you did for the brochure..." then in the next breath, "We just don't have any projects that need photos right now..." Come to find out the owner of the "BIG" agnecy in town was farming out the photography work to her brother-in-law (who had retired from the local newspaper) at a PREMIUM price. The final kick in the #$%* was that he was my bosses husband. After he retired, seems the A/V department was no longer needed and the "Ad Agency" was doing all of the photography with ... guess who?


Oh man. Sorry for the rant. I didn't realize I had suppressed that so deep for the last 12 years.

All of a sudden I feel better.

D0ct0rteeth
Mar 1, 2006, 01:04 PM
Ah freelancing. I love it.

i.Feature gives a lot of great advice and I agree with much of what he has said. I have been a Freelancer, an Art Director and Creative Director myself, and in the late 90's I went out on my own and started up my own shop. Eventually I hired some staff and last year I sold my firm to another agency when I wanted to raise my rates and start performing a different caliber of work.

Freelancing can be a great way to learn, and I unlike most Art/Creative Directors I have always been supportive of my team freelancing. Anytime they can learn something/take ownership/grow on their own time/dollar I'm a big fan.

If you do good work, charge ethically, get things done on time, and treat your clients/team with respect you are already so much better than 90% of the people out there you will never have a problem being successful.

Good luck!

- Doc

chaos86
Mar 1, 2006, 01:19 PM
i design websites and i hated it when other designers would undercut me. then i would email the client right after they got the design from the crap/cheap designer and send them my portfolio again and sometimes they hire me to fix the other persons design or start it over.

the other change i made that seems to work is to self promote. it seems really cocky when you write it, but if you basically say "those cheap designers will sell you crap any you'll come running to me afterwards anyway" they'll often compare the portfolios and come straight to you instead, despite the price difference.

the biggest thing is a professional looking portfolio with good stuff in it, because the clients, though perhaps subconsciously, do really pay attention to your book.

i.Feature
Mar 1, 2006, 03:42 PM
Freelancing can be a great way to learn, and I unlike most Art/Creative Directors I have always been supportive of my team freelancing. Anytime they can learn something/take ownership/grow on their own time/dollar I'm a big fan.

Very true... I learned more in my time freelancing than i did in my previous jobs. And like you said good jobs will be supportive of you freelancing as well. The job i took recently encourages me to do freelance. They know the work they give me isn't always the most glamorous, creative, or fun so they're very happy when i get something outside that lets me stretch my legs and make a bit on top.

rugonnaeatthat
Mar 1, 2006, 05:07 PM
I've been freelancing for three years now and don't find a great deal of undercutting going on. I think you need to market yourself at business that a) don't mind paying for good design b) who need to depend on you. The newbies can't be depended upon as they lack the experience, and they design in an adhoc fashion that generally reflects the last magazine they read rather than what the client needs.

The first thing I learnt as I started to outsource some of my projects is that it is hard to find people that you can depend upon. Any person in business knows this. So let them get a $50 logo, and a late deadline or two, and once burnt they will be ready to pay.

I have lost a few start up companies websites and the like but I know I can't do cheap design (quick and crap doesn't agree with me) so I don't mind too much.

One piece of advice that I can pass on is to write in a discount on your quotes. Often times I have done this for start up businesses - just explain you know how hard it is starting a business and give them 25% off. Then even if they have a cheaper quote, if yours is close it will no doubt win as it is 'worth' more in the customers eyes.

e-clipse
Mar 6, 2006, 02:52 PM
In the job field I am entering after college, I will be working as an audio engineer
for a Nashville recording studio while maintaining a private studio. The art opportunities are vast. Many musicians need cd cover, inlay, and disc designers to give that polished professional look. I plan to offer my artistic abilities for a little spending cash.

eclipse525
Mar 6, 2006, 04:09 PM
In the job field I am entering after college, I will be working as an audio engineer for a Nashville recording studio while maintaining a private studio. The art opportunities are vast. Many musicians need cd cover, inlay, and disc designers to give that polished professional look. I plan to offer my artistic abilities for a little spending cash.

That's cute. I give that positive attitude a year or so, then you'll understand but seems to me that you are not pursuing it seriously as a career or main source of income. You can understand how the people that do, will frown upon your attitude towards Design as just "Spending Cash." It's a shame.


~e

evilgEEk
Mar 6, 2006, 08:30 PM
...I plan to offer my artistic abilities for a little spending cash.
Not to undercut your abilities, I'm sure you're very talented, so no offense meant when I use you as an example. ;)

The reason why we hear more and more kids talking about doing some quick design work for "spending cash" is because the software we have today makes it so easy for everyone. Ten years ago this wasn't as easy as it is today. Granted PhotoShop is a pretty intense program, but it can be easy to use for simple jobs as well. Due to this fact, a lot of smaller companies that at one time would have sought out a designer to create their logo or marketing materials are now having an employee's son or daughter create it for them.

e-clipse
Mar 6, 2006, 09:19 PM
Not to undercut your abilities, I'm sure you're very talented, so no offense meant when I use you as an example. ;)

The reason why we hear more and more kids talking about doing some quick design work for "spending cash" is because the software we have today makes it so easy for everyone. Ten years ago this wasn't as easy as it is today. Granted PhotoShop is a pretty intense program, but it can be easy to use for simple jobs as well. Due to this fact, a lot of smaller companies that at one time would have sought out a designer to create their logo or marketing materials are now having an employee's son or daughter create it for them.

I hardly see myself as a kid anymore, being 25.:D

Sad but true.:( Now.. with Photoshop, you don't have to even know how to draw or paint. All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals. I like drawing designs and importing them into photoshop for color.

Picture I photoshopped of my cousin
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/1983/matthollars53ph.th.jpg (http://img373.imageshack.us/my.php?image=matthollars53ph.jpg)

i.Feature
Mar 7, 2006, 09:19 AM
All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals.

While i agree that its easy for people to create with the various programs out there I would argue that this for the most part is not true.

I can pick up a baseball bat. I can swing the bat. I can hit a ball coming at me at 90mph. People oooh and aww when they see me swinging. Now Barry Bonds steps up next to me and i look foolish.

It's all in perspective.

motherduce
Mar 7, 2006, 09:57 AM
While i agree that its easy for people to create with the various programs out there I would argue that this for the most part is not true.

I can pick up a baseball bat. I can swing the bat. I can hit a ball coming at me at 90mph. People oooh and aww when they see me swinging. Now Barry Bonds steps up next to me and i look foolish.

It's all in perspective.

Excellent analogy - while everyone may be able to perform a function at some level, it becomes apparent who is a pro and who is not very quickly.

evilgEEk
Mar 7, 2006, 11:22 AM
While i agree that its easy for people to create with the various programs out there I would argue that this for the most part is not true.

I can pick up a baseball bat. I can swing the bat. I can hit a ball coming at me at 90mph. People oooh and aww when they see me swinging. Now Barry Bonds steps up next to me and i look foolish.

It's all in perspective.
That's true, but that doesn't stop your average small business owner from recruiting an amateur for their design work so they can save some money. Whereas in the past the only choice they had were professionals.

Sam/B
Mar 7, 2006, 12:15 PM
the way i've gained experience is through a new buisness someone else I knew had set up and I recieve 50% of sales that come through my work (websites, flyers, posters, catalogues and promotional layouts) without all the hassle of customers and running the buisness. It counts as paid experience and also motivates you to develop your work and learn new things. I've learnt a whole range of programs to a very reasoneable level through this method. It's a very very good motivator even if you do end up making very little money from it.

Ninja_Turtle
Mar 7, 2006, 03:29 PM
Now.. with Photoshop, you don't have to even know how to draw or paint. All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals.


theres a difference between a designer/artist and a person who just memorizes tutorials...

e-clipse
Mar 7, 2006, 06:23 PM
theres a difference between a designer/artist and a person who just memorizes tutorials...
I agree with you, but there are also similarities between a designer/artist and a person who memorizes tutorials.


Yes, you have to have a creative want to make art too. This creative want forms a creative eye. Not all people see eye to eye. One persons trash is another persons treasure. MTV makes billions off of poor crafted designs. Some might see their low budget artistic advertisements as genius. A person who follows tutorials can become a great designer/artist. Which tutorials this beginner chooses to pay attention to, creates a certain style of art.

MacRumorUser
Mar 8, 2006, 09:08 AM
theres a difference between a designer/artist and a person who just memorizes tutorials...

Agree anyone can pick up a pencil. Anyone can practice - copy a tutorial, but that doesn't make them artistic.

I've tought people to use photoshop, but they still have somthing missing, some creatuve qi.

I work freelance as graphic designer since finishing uni in 1999, luckily where I live word of mouth does a lot more for you than advertising. In my county (Kerry in Ireland there are only around 120,000 people), and it's like everyone knows everyone, so do a good job for one person and your guaranteed more business. It's kept me comfortable for the last 5-6 years anyway.

I usually charge 40-50 Euro per hour, but am flexible depending on the size/scale of the project.

I've also built up a good relation with the local printers, so when a job comes in that's too much for them to handle (they like to keep things small and fast) I get a good amount of work passed on to me, which is nice :)

I work primarily in Illustrator / Painter IX.5 (works great on intel macs) / Photoshop... I'd be lost without my tablet. No matter how good you are with a mouse, nothing compares to the freedom of a tablet.

The Past
Mar 8, 2006, 08:17 PM
I don't do design but testing and I am a freelancer. Same problem here as well. But clients learn pretty fast what they bargained for. Last year lost my biggest client to someone who bid 20% of what I bid. There was no way I was going to match that, it was not worth it as I would have lost a lot of money. It even made me look bad because my client thought I was sucking their blood all along. Not true because my costs are very high as my tests are highly reliable and done with utmost rigor.

Well, they went with the other guy and their site has been spiraling down since then. I gave them consistently over 45% conversion rates across two major site redesigns and now I believe it is under 5%. So you do get what you pay for if you look at the right metrics.

We had our first meeting in a year last week but I am not sure if I will get the account back. The low charges of the other guy may have spoilt them for good. There was too much money discussion even in that first meeting.

Peyton
Mar 8, 2006, 08:34 PM
This creative want forms a creative eye. Not all people see eye to eye.

No offence, but this doesn't make too much sense. Its like saying people who are tone deaf will one day will get on pitch.

Creativity/artistic ability is some thing you are born with or not. Sure, you can get better, hone skills (or lack thereof) but lets be honest, you can only improve so much, and no matter how hard william hung tries, he won't be an American idol.

e-clipse
Mar 8, 2006, 09:03 PM
No offence, but this doesn't make too much sense. Its like saying people who are tone deaf will one day will get on pitch.

Creativity/artistic ability is some thing you are born with or not. Sure, you can get better, hone skills (or lack thereof) but lets be honest, you can only improve so much, and no matter how hard william hung tries, he won't be an American idol.

No offense taken...True, I have never heard a tone depth person sing anything that didn't make me
annoyed.:D

I was referring to artists like Picasso. His art is creative to cubists, but I think it looks like crap, and always will, but someone still admires it.

ATD
Mar 8, 2006, 11:31 PM
All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals.


Gee, you make it sound so easy.

Trust me, running effects/filters on images will not make you a seasoned professional.



.

e-clipse
Mar 9, 2006, 12:07 AM
Gee, you make it sound so easy.

Trust me, running effects/filters on images will not make you a seasoned professional.



.

I admit error in that statement. I did not think before posting. :) Great work!

Robofunc
Mar 10, 2006, 09:07 AM
...Now.. with Photoshop, you don't have to even know how to draw or paint. All you have to do, is to memorize simple little tutorials on how to get a desired effect, and it competes with the quality of seasoned professionals...

It's actually quite the opposite—one of the easiest ways to tell amateur work from professional work is heavy-handed or meaningless use of Photoshop effects/filters.

Photoshop is not stand-alone design software. You can design with it, but it's like painting a house with a screwdriver. InDesign is the industry-standard "design" program, but if you're a designer working mainly on computers, you need everything included in Adobe CS/CS2. If you're a designer working with traditional (endangered) methods, you need a lot of pencils, rulers, knives, burnishers, proportion wheels, Sticky Letraset type, etc. etc.

Neither package of tools does any good in the hands of a person without the knowledge to use them.

If you want to design, good. But before you make a single mark on paper or screen, remember this: the first thing you need to create good design is an idea. If you don't have a clear idea of the job your creation needs to perform, you're either making art or playing around.


...not that there's anything wrong with that...

_bnkr612
Mar 10, 2006, 10:37 AM
Excellent analogy - while everyone may be able to perform a function at some level, it becomes apparent who is a pro and who is not very quickly.

Well said indeed.

Another fact is that you either have it or you don't. I come from a long line of right brain thinkers. My brothers and I are lucky. When I was in university, I noticed fellow students in my concentration who were/are terrible. And now most of them are not working in the creative field.

It's sad, and it brings the art department down when a student displays crap for work.

Left brainers are a dying breed here in the States. Big companies can get their talent overseas for a fraction of the price.

Work is good. If it's good, it works. -Me

rebhaf
Mar 10, 2006, 11:21 AM
Are you seeing a lot of jobs going to competitors that are charging next-to-nothing and getting rewarded more and more gigs? $50 for a logo, $100 for a brochure, $300 for a ten minute video! This has been plaguing myself and most of the Creative Freelance industry where iAm and it is getting extremely frustrating.

Sorry, but no brand can expect to get quality work from a freelancer billing at those rates. Here in Paris (and it was the same when I was in NY), a major brand or ad agency wouldn't even take you seriously if you weren't charging at least €400 per day (almost $500). Very good "creatives" bill about a thousand per day.

It's true, since design applications are easier to use and acquire, and for copywriters information is so accessible with search engines, anyone with a computer can get into advertising these days. As a result, there are loads and loads of small agencies and freelancers doing bad work. They're everywhere.

Nothing can compensate for true talent mixed with solid experience. Nothing.

As a copywriter and creative director, I've tried outsourcing projects to so many creatives here in Europe (Paris and UK) and I get hundreds and hundreds of resumes from people with very flimsy experience -- almost always just Web experience for companies you never heard of. I'm not saying this to be critical. But they're all ready to work for almost nothing, especially if it's for an interesting project (of course).

It's like actors in NY. Almost any waiter or waitress in NY would do anything to get a role in a movie, and they'd work for free (even if the union wouldn't let them). And any new screenwriter would probably GIVE his/her script to be made for free. (Any unaccomplished actor or screenwriter that denies this is a liar.)

But... any serious production company will spend the necessary money to hire quality actors, screenwriters, camera crews, etc.

Just the same, a leading international brand with a $100 million marketing budget isn't going to put its hide on the line to take chances with $100-per-brochure rookies.

Well, my response is getting too long. The whole point I'm trying to make is simply, if you're losing projects to dirt-cheap freelancers, then it's probably with companies you'll never have much future with anyway. Quality and experience probably isn't important to them. If you're good and have the portfolio to prove it, go for the bigger stuff.

jtt
Mar 10, 2006, 11:52 AM
My main client asked me last week if $300-400 was a good price for a 15 minute dvd consisting of mixed video, photos and graphics. He was quoted this by a guy who just broke off from a wedding/documentary crew.

How in the hell can you do that for that price? ..... it continues!

Josh
Mar 10, 2006, 11:58 AM
My main client asked me last week if $300-400 was a good price for a 15 minute dvd consisting of mixed video, photos and graphics. He was quoted this by a guy who just broke off from a wedding/documentary crew.

How in the hell can you do that for that price? ..... it continues!

Cheetos are cheap, high school only lasts 6 hours a day, and Mom's basement doesn't have a rental fee :p

ATD
Mar 10, 2006, 01:46 PM
Just the same, a leading international brand with a $100 million marketing budget isn't going to put its hide on the line to take chances with $100-per-brochure rookies.

Well, my response is getting too long. The whole point I'm trying to make is simply, if you're losing projects to dirt-cheap freelancers, then it's probably with companies you'll never have much future with anyway. Quality and experience probably isn't important to them. If you're good and have the portfolio to prove it, go for the bigger stuff.



Exactly. Bigger clients put quality and time first. They will pay good money for solid work that's on time. There is a old rule that goes like this, each job has 3 aspects, quality, time and price. Any reasonable client can only expect 2 out of 3, never 3 out of 3. If they want high quality work fast, the price goes up. The harder they push on any 2, the more it will effect the third one. If your clients are expecting 3 out of 3, they are being unreasonable.

imngtgt
Mar 10, 2006, 09:02 PM
I hate the fact that just because some people have a computer with design software , consider themselves designers and some who have a camera consider themselves a photographer. The old addage goes, you get what you pay for....so your quality should speak for itself.

jtt
Mar 11, 2006, 11:25 PM
I hate the fact that just because some people have a computer with design software , consider themselves designers and some who have a camera consider themselves a photographer. The old addage goes, you get what you pay for....so your quality should speak for itself.


Here you go.

ATD
Mar 12, 2006, 12:09 PM
Here you go.


Cool, I got the software, where can I download them concepts :D :D

maya
Mar 12, 2006, 12:32 PM
In a digital world we have those who have and "call" themselves:

Have : Think off themselves

1. Camera : Photographer
2. Video Camera : Camera Man/Woman
3. Photoshop : Graphic Designer
4. DVD Studio Pro : DVD Authorizer
5. FCP HD : Video Editor
6. InDesign : Desktop Publisher
7. Soundtrack : Audio Mixer and Recorder
8. a Macintosh Portable : Mobile workstation professional
9. a Power Macintosh : a Home Digital Studio
10. iPod : Some Music Fanatic

You get the picture, as long as you have the money, time and MacRumors Forum you can call yourself anything theses days. :rolleyes: ;) :D

Forgot:

11. Rapid Weaver : Web Designer
12. BBEdit : Web and Computer Programmer
13. Apple Developer Tools : Macintosh Programmer
14. Black Turtle neck and Blue Jeans : Steve Jobs ;) :D

MacRumorUser
Mar 12, 2006, 12:54 PM
LOL! Sad but true. Can't tell you how many 'photographers' i've met who have a fancy camera - they constantly brag to you & everyone else of the cost, amount of pixels, and yet not 1 iota of understanding of simple things like composition etc..

I know loads of people who get 'PRO' software, and barely scrape through using it, never exerting any kind of creativity or desire to do so, and for the most part they do get away with it - with fancy templates the clients remain ignorant...

What I loved about DVD studio pro 1, was the fact that it did NOTHING for you and all the work and creation had to be done by yourself, the re-occurrence of fancy templates may speed up production for some - but it often puts a death-nail in creativity. Does any real person creative actually use 'templates'???? So why do they keep filling up our HD space with the bloody things.

It's not the clients fault of course.. Generally a client doesn't understand that Joe Blogs with no real ability can knock up a project cheaply by using templates. All they understand is the cost.....

The best appreciation I've recieved from clients are from those who have sat down with me whilst I've made changes etc.. Once they see the work involved and the skill required to do somthing properly, they gain a higher level of appreciation - and tend to hassle less about the cost and desire less changes...

Nothing worse than quoting a client and then they make constant changes and revisions but wont pay anything more than the original quote :( making the entire process worthless and stressful to the max..

Here's another analogy :-

I live/work in a recording studio. We have a laugh everytime a 'musician' comes in to record and they bring in their automatic keyboard.. That's no being a musician.

Same for those creatives who use 'templates' & 'filters'....



In a digital world we have those who have and "call" themselves:

Have : Think off themselves

1. Camera : Photographer
2. Video Camera : Camera Man/Woman
3. Photoshop : Graphic Designer
4. DVD Studio Pro : DVD Authorizer
5. FCP HD : Video Editor
6. InDesign : Desktop Publisher
7. Soundtrack : Audio Mixer and Recorder
8. a Macintosh Portable : Mobile workstation professional
9. a Power Macintosh : a Home Digital Studio
10. iPod : Some Music Fanatic

You get the picture, as long as you have the money, time and MacRumors Forum you can call yourself anything theses days. :rolleyes: ;) :D

Forgot:

11. Rapid Weaver : Web Designer
12. BBEdit : Web and Computer Programmer
13. Apple Developer Tools : Macintosh Programmer
14. Black Turtle neck and Blue Jeans : Steve Jobs ;) :D

jtt
Mar 13, 2006, 08:20 AM
Cool, I got the software, where can I download them concepts :D :D


Good question. I've been looking for years.

ATD: You've got some fantastic stuff in your portfolio. Are there any small clients in LA?:D

ATD
Mar 13, 2006, 09:40 AM
Good question. I've been looking for years.

ATD: You've got some fantastic stuff in your portfolio. Are there any small clients in LA?:D


Thanks. There are lots of small clients in LA but the big ones pay better. :D

The Past
Mar 13, 2006, 11:11 AM
Here is what's even worse:


1. Camera : Photographer: ARTIST
2. Video Camera : Camera Man/Woman: DIRECTOR
3. Photoshop : Graphic Designer: ARTIST
5. FCP HD : Video Editor: PETER JACKSON
7. Soundtrack : Audio Mixer and Recorder: DJ
8. a Macintosh Portable : Mobile workstation professional: COOLEST KID
9. a Power Macintosh : a Home Digital Studio
14. Black Turtle neck and Blue Jeans : Steve Jobs ;) :D:)

i.Feature
Mar 13, 2006, 11:23 AM
Artist

That is my favorite title.

I love when somebody tells me they're an artist and i just don't understand.

If i don't understand you're not good at your job.

nicksoper
Mar 13, 2006, 08:28 PM
I'm a student in the UK. I am just about to finish digital art and technology. Its a great course, it got voted 3rd best design degree in the UK by computer arts.

I do a bit of freelance every now and again, but I like to be picky with who I work for, so I can have the kind of creative freedom a digital artist needs.

But lets be honest, web and logo design is a bit lacking in something to be able to call it art. But it pays the bills!

If anyone needs some cool website designs/logo work I can give my opinion and help. Not sure if this is why this thread was started or not?

Nick

KidHoliday
Apr 6, 2006, 06:03 PM
As a full-time freelancer, here's my 2 cents.

Try to work for somebody that appreciates your work.
Most small-time clients don't know the difference between good and bad. Because they don't deal with the creative industry full-time, they just don't know the difference between good and bad work. These are the guys that will end up paying their 15 yr. old neighbor $50 bucks for a logo. Bigger agencies and clients recognize talent when they see it. Not only will you get paid your market value, but if you perform well, it will lead to more jobs, and better work for your portfolio.

Two things that I like to factor when deciding to take a job:
1) Am I being compensated fairly?
2) Is it something that I will enjoy doing or will be enhance for my portfolio?

Always try to get something out of a job, whether it be good money or good portfolio pieces. If there's no benefit to a job, don't waste your time.

Good Luck!

HiRez
Apr 7, 2006, 06:45 AM
thecreativechaos.com - Professional Website DesignNitpick: Résumé has two accented es in it, if you're going to use accents (in the Kristin Roberts site).

freeny
Apr 7, 2006, 08:21 AM
Its always been who you know, who you know knows and let your portfolio speak for itself.

Ive gotten several jobs by going to an interview for a job Im very capable of doing but not all that qualified (experience). After they view my work they suddenly know of another position that I would be perfect for. The message I guess is, get yourself out there and have NO FEAR! If you truly have what it takes your talant will speak for itself and the work will start comming to you.

Invest in a kick ass portfolio, this is your best promotional piece followed by networking.

Find magazines you like and send copies of your work to every magazines art director. Occasionally I will send to 10-15 magazines and on average get work with 2-4 of them. Dont expect immediate response. Sometimes they will call you 2 or 3 years later. Ive always wanted to be in Heavy Metal Magazine if only to say I was in Heavy Metal. So I sent them some work. I didnt hear back from them and figured "Oh well, at least I tried", Then out of nowhere 2 years later I got a call. I didnt even remember what I sent them and had to ask them to remind me of the work.

You never know......;)

mox358
Apr 7, 2006, 09:01 AM
After being undercut a few times I took the advice of an old college professor and I pitched a couple of clients a tiered system. Let me explain.

I normally work for $50 an hour (cheap I know, but in southern Indiana its kind of expensive believe it or not) but when I would have a potential client who would complain about cost I would whip up a different design with some of the really cool stuff taken out. When the client asks about the difference in the logo or website or whatever you simply explain "you get what you pay for". Its worked for me, but not every time. But it helps me compete with some of the low-ballers while still maintaining my reputation for quality work.

ATD
Apr 7, 2006, 11:28 AM
After being undercut a few times I took the advice of an old college professor and I pitched a couple of clients a tiered system. Let me explain.

I normally work for $50 an hour (cheap I know, but in southern Indiana its kind of expensive believe it or not) but when I would have a potential client who would complain about cost I would whip up a different design with some of the really cool stuff taken out. When the client asks about the difference in the logo or website or whatever you simply explain "you get what you pay for". Its worked for me, but not every time. But it helps me compete with some of the low-ballers while still maintaining my reputation for quality work.



I have a slight different take on that. I tell would be clients that I ALWAYS do my best effort on every job I take on. Then I will add (if I'm being lowballed), that I don't believe I can put in the necessary time and effort that your jobs DESERVES. Any thing less than that would be doing you a disservice. I find this works with reasonable people who were just looking to see if they can get something for less. I talk to what's in their best interest and that they should not shortchange themselves on something thats important to their business. Some people want something for nothing, I find that if I start entertaining half effort for half price, that it becomes a slippery slope. These people are generally the ones that are going to nickel and dime you to death and make you wish you never agreed to work with them. I'm happier when I don't go down that road. :D

jtt
Apr 8, 2006, 05:49 PM
Its always been who you know, who you know knows and let your portfolio speak for itself.

Ive gotten several jobs by going to an interview for a job Im very capable of doing but not all that qualified (experience). After they view my work they suddenly know of another position that I would be perfect for. The message I guess is, get yourself out there and have NO FEAR! If you truly have what it takes your talant will speak for itself and the work will start comming to you.

Invest in a kick ass portfolio, this is your best promotional piece followed by networking.

Find magazines you like and send copies of your work to every magazines art director. Occasionally I will send to 10-15 magazines and on average get work with 2-4 of them. Dont expect immediate response. Sometimes they will call you 2 or 3 years later. Ive always wanted to be in Heavy Metal Magazine if only to say I was in Heavy Metal. So I sent them some work. I didnt hear back from them and figured "Oh well, at least I tried", Then out of nowhere 2 years later I got a call. I didnt even remember what I sent them and had to ask them to remind me of the work.

You never know......;)

are you sending out .pdf's to them or mailing hard copies?

macscripter
Sep 5, 2006, 09:15 PM
Hey guys ...

Check out http://macfreelancer.com

Enjoy!