When the rapture is for sissies...

[mactastic]

Interesting read on an obscure, but powerful, influence on the American Taliban. (http://motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/12/a_nation_under_god.html)
On a Friday last April, Trinity’s parking lot filled with SUVs and luxury sedans as about 400 faithful gathered inside the sanctuary. The church was host to Restore America, a rally to “celebrate faith and patriotism” sponsored by Christian publisher American Vision. In the lobby, neatly blue-blazered youths were hawking So Help Me God, Roy Moore’s account of his dethroning as chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court. Tables were piled with textbooks for homeschoolers, tomes denouncing evolution, booklets waxing nostalgic for the antebellum South. That afternoon the congregants, who’d come to the conference from conservative churches around the region, would hear from Sadie Fields, president of Georgia’s Christian Coalition, and they’d sway in rhythm as country crooner Steve Vaus sang “We Must Take America Back.”

But the marquee pitchman of the day was Moore. Ruggedly handsome, with the military bearing he acquired at West Point, Moore has gained a rock-star following on the Christian right—a Moses to lead the chosen from a godless society. The judge has a stunning memory for long literary passages and judicial opinions, and he chants them in the singsongy, down-home style of Southern demagogues from Theo Bilbo to George Wallace—“God” is “Gawud,” with an upward lilt. When he proclaimed that “God is still sovereign, no matter what federal judges say,” the crowd tittered and applauded. When he intoned that “there is no right to sodomy in the Constitution,” they cheered. When he roared that unless judges “acknowledge God,” they “should be impeached,” the righteous noise shook the rafters.

It could have been nothing more than a half-hour rebel yell—except that Moore is more than the latest prophet of the religious right. He stands a good chance of being the next governor of Alabama; he’s also arguably the single most significant politician to owe his ascendancy to Christian Reconstruction—an obscure but increasingly potent theology whose top exponents hold that Christian crusaders must conquer and convert the world, by the sword if necessary, before Jesus will return.

...

Reconstructionists aren’t shy about what exactly it is they are pursuing: “The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise,” Gary North, a top Reconstruction theorist, wrote in his 1989 book, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism. “Those who refuse to submit publicly…must be denied citizenship.”

...

The Old Testament—with its 600 or so Mosaic laws—is the inflexible guide for the society DeMar and other Reconstructionists envision. Government posts would be reserved for the righteous, as long as they are male. There would be thousands of executions a year, with stoning a preferred method because it would turn the deaths into “community projects,” as movement theologian North has noted. Sinners in line for the death penalty would include women who commit adultery or lie about their virginity, blasphemers, witches, children who strike their parents, and gay men (lesbians, however, would be spared because no specific reference to them can be found in the Books of Moses). DeMar told me that among Reconstructionists he is considered something of a liberal, because he’d execute gays only if they were caught indulging in sodomy. “I’m happy to just drive them back into the closet,” he said.

...

Besides facilitating evangelism, Reconstructionists believe, government should largely be limited to building and maintaining roads, enforcing land-use contracts, and ensuring just weights and measures. Unions would not exist, and neither would unemployment benefits, Social Security, and environmental protection laws. Public schools would disappear; one of the movement’s great successes has been promoting homeschooling programs and publishing texts used by tens of thousands of homeschooling families. And, perhaps most importantly, the state is “God’s minister,” as DeMar puts it in Liberty at Risk, “taking vengeance out on those who do evil.” A major task for the government key Reconstructionists envision is fielding armies for conquest in the name of Jesus.

...

At the heart of Rushdoony’s argument were two biblical passages. Genesis 1:28 commands men to have “dominion” over “every living thing.” And in Matthew 28:18-20, the “Great Commission,” Jesus commands his followers to proselytize to the world. Thus was born dominion theology. (Not all dominionists are Reconstruction apostles—but the differences are a matter of theological finesse, and political strategies are largely indistinguishable.) Adam and Eve broke their covenant with God, and Satan seized dominion. Christian Reconstruction claims it has a reconstituted covenant with God and the right to a new dominion in his name.

In this worldview, the mandate for Christians is not just to live right or to help their neighbors: They are called upon to take over or eliminate the institutions of secular government.

...

When I last saw Gary DeMar, he was shepherding Roy Moore through a crowd of true believers at the Restore America rally. As they walked by, I asked Moore, “Do you favor a theocracy?” The judge turned and looked at me, shook his head, frowned, and walked away. But DeMar, in our interview, had already answered the question.

“All governments are theocracies,” he said. “We now live in a secular humanist theocracy. I want to change that to a government with God at its head.”
There's lots more in the article...

[zimv20]

well, if they're going to insist on being like that, perhaps we should all adopt satanic philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism#Satanic_philosophy):

LaVey's "9 Satanic Statements", a philosophical outline to defining Satanism, were as follows:

Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.
Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.
Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates.
Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.
Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.
Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.
Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.
Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years.

Matching these, LaVey also identified 9 Satanic sins, namely:
Stupidity, pretentiousness (putting on airs), solipsism (expecting others to give back to you what you give to them), self-deceit, herd conformity, lack of perspective, forgetfulness of past orthodoxies (i.e. accepting something as new and different which is merely a repackaging of the old or the discredited), counterproductive pride (ie pride of a type which undermines one's own goals), and lack of aesthetics.

Note: solipsism can also refer to an epistemological idea attributed to Descartes, suggesting that one person is the only one to actually experience existence and that all others are merely figments of the imagination of this individual

He further outlined 11 Satanic rules, which while not exactly a moral code, provide Satanists with general guidelines for living:
Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Do not harm little children.
Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

[mkrishnan]

In the words of El Guapo, I like these guys. They are funny guys. Just kill one of them. :)

[solvs]

Yes, because we all know how much Jesus loved stoning people to death. :rolleyes:

If we all followed the words of Leviticus the way these people did, the world would be even worse of a place. The country was actually founded on ideals to prevent this type of thing from happening, so despite how far we've begun to swing to the right, they're going to need a lot more than a few hundred nutjobs to make any real changes.

Maybe they should take a trip to one of those real theocracies and see how much they really like it.

[Chundles]

So what is the difference between what these guys want and what the Taliban wanted in Afghanistan? It jucks smacks of hypocrisy.

[srobert]

In the words of El Guapo, I like these guys. They are funny guys. Just kill one of them. :)

I give you the Amigo Salute. :D

[JesseJames]

:rolleyes:

[skunk]

If they want to follow Leviticus, why don't they call themselves Orthodox Jews? What's their stance on mixed cloth, I wonder?

[Thomas Veil]

That retching sound you just heard from above was Jesus, barfing.

If these people are familiar with Jesus (and their familiarity seems a tenuous one, given their belief system), then surely they must realize that there was a testament that came after the Old one. I forget what it was called ;) , but I remember there was something in there about forgiveness, tolerance and love.

Seriously, I wouldn't take this Moore guy seriously except for the fact that the article says he "stands a good chance of being the next governor of Alabama." That is frightening.

Makes you kind of long for the good old days of George Wallace, doesn't it? http://users.adelphia.net/~tjveil/images/yeahright.gif

[Lyle]

Seriously, I wouldn't take this Moore guy seriously except for the fact that the article says he "stands a good chance of being the next governor of Alabama." That is frightening.I wonder what the author's source is for that claim. The most recent polls (http://www.madisoncountyrecord.com/articles/2006/02/23/opinion/oped2.txt) are showing Roy Moore trailing Bob Riley (the incumbent) by about 2 to 1.

[skunk]

The fact that he ever got to be Chief Justice is horrifying enough...

[XNine]

And even better, these people neglect, or are ignorant of the fact that the CHRISTIAN forefathers of this country founded the country with the concept of SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. It's actually one of the primary reasons we fought the British, and told them "piss off! we won't be governed by a church!"

And now they want everyone in government to rule with the Iron Fist of the southern concept of Christianity. Yeah, that'll go over like a hooker in sunday mass.

[vniow]

(lesbians, however, would be spared (for execution) because no specific reference to them can be found in the Books of Moses)

Yay!

[XNine]

Yay!

:confused: I thought you went both ways? :confused:

Damn, woman, you confuse the hell out of me!

(gears grind to hault)

[aquajet]

Yay!

Hmmm. I wonder what they think about trannies.

[vniow]

:confused: I thought you went both ways? :confused:

Damn, woman, you confuse the hell out of me!

(gears grind to hault)

Details, details....

Hmmm. I wonder what they think about trannies.

Hm, not mentioned. I suppose its another one of the side effects of being on the end of the GLBT spectrum. :rolleyes:

[mkrishnan]

Details, details....

The devil is in the details. Unless they're lesbian details. In which case, apparently, we have no comment. :eek: ;) :D

[dornoforpyros]

-Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
-Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
-When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
-If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
-Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
-Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
-Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
-Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
-Do not harm little children.
-Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
-When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

You know most of those are actually pretty decent rules to live by. If it weren't for that "scary" word Satan involved I bet most people would feel the same

[vniow]

The devil is in the details. Unless they're lesbian details. In which case, apparently, we have no comment. :eek: ;) :D

Eh, even though I like boys I'm still a dyke at heart. :)

[mkrishnan]

Eh, even though I like boys I'm still a dyke at heart. :)

I know! That's what makes you hawt, silly! :D

[nbs2]

While the source of the article seems dubious to me (Mother Jones) and the article reads like it was written for the Weekly World News, I'll address it.

First, these people sound down right scary. I have a hard time seeing them functioning well outside of their limited circles, and so my fear is limited to the effect on their children rather than any effect on society.

As for the seperation of church and state, it should be clarified that what exists is a prohibition on the idea of a ational religion. The concern was that the king was the head of the church and no other church could be permitted. By stopping Congress, the founding fathers expected that America would be a country built on faith, but that the faith would derive from people following their own concience. Even the so-called wall of separation, which I expect someone to address in this thread) existed only to clarify that the national government was restricted from making a "law respecting an [not the] establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." While there is a tenuous distinction between the modern interpretation and the original statement, I would prefer if arguments were more firmly established.

[atszyman]

At least Moore isn't quite as bad as this guy (http://www.larrykilgore.com) running for Texas Governor. I can't find any nice issue charts (http://www.larrykilgore.com/Issues.html) on Moore's website.

[zimv20]

While the source of the article seems dubious to me (Mother Jones)
i've found their journalistic practices to be pretty good, actually.

the article reads like it was written for the Weekly World News
well, no, it doesn't. i assume you were being dramatic.

[iSaint]

At least Moore isn't quite as bad as this guy (http://www.larrykilgore.com) running for Texas Governor. I can't find any nice issue charts (http://www.larrykilgore.com/Issues.html) on Moore's website.

This is the guy (http://www.kinkyfriedman.com/) I like in Texas!!!

[mactastic]

While the source of the article seems dubious to me (Mother Jones) and the article reads like it was written for the Weekly World News, I'll address it.

First, these people sound down right scary. I have a hard time seeing them functioning well outside of their limited circles, and so my fear is limited to the effect on their children rather than any effect on society.
I can only conclude from this response that you didn't actually read the article. The whole point was the large amount of influence this obscure religious belief has on American politics. Their 'limited circles', as you put it, includes some of the most powerful religious and political figures in the nation. George W. Bush is hardly some pittance of a social circle. Judge Roy Moore either.

Also, I would take issue with your flippant characterization of MoJo as 'dubious'. Sure they are left-leaning, but would you automatically dismiss the Wall Street Journal reporters just because they have a conservative bias?

Could you provide some examples from the article that you would characterize as dubious? Outside of their statement about Moore that Lyle picked up on, everything else seemed solid. And in all fairness, Moore did poll higher earlier, and I'm guessing this article has been in the works for several months. Do you doubt the philosophy of the religious folks discussed? Do you doubt that they have designs on the reigns of power? Is MoJo mischaracterizing them, or lying about their actions? I'm unclear how you can hold anything against the accuracy of the reporting in this article.

[Thomas Veil]

At least Moore isn't quite as bad as this guy (http://www.larrykilgore.com) running for Texas Governor. I can't find any nice issue charts (http://www.larrykilgore.com/Issues.html) on Moore's website.http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/misc/eek2.gif

[solvs]

http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/misc/eek2.gif
Leviticus and Deuteronomy are some of the worst parts of the Bible to pull a belief system of. If they knew anything about Christianity, they'd know that Jesus opposed these barbaric laws. As I've said, most of these people are just using religion to justify their hatred. We should stone them to death.

[zimv20]

We should stone them to death.
i say we invite them to our lairs and treat them "cruelly and without mercy."

[solvs]

i say we invite them to our lairs and treat them "cruelly and without mercy."
What, are you a Satanist? I prefer to follow the words of God, as told to me by someone else. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself. Ha! As a good Christian, I'd rather complain about things that have nothing to do with me or mine, and then force that belief on others. Especially in the case of TV shows and movies I haven't seen.

[zimv20]

What, are you a Satanist?
thinking about adopting it, more as a philosophy than a religion. without all the silly lair and magic stuff, of course.

but i'm down with the bits about hedonism, undefiled wisdom and taking responsibility.

and doing no harm to little children, of course. speaking of which, how are those kids in gitmo doing, i wonder.

[solvs]

and doing no harm to little children, of course.
But then you couldn't beat Christ's love into them. ;)

[Thomas Veil]

Leviticus and Deuteronomy are some of the worst parts of the Bible to pull a belief system of. If they knew anything about Christianity, they'd know that Jesus opposed these barbaric laws. As I've said, most of these people are just using religion to justify their hatred. We should stone them to death.Between reading your second and third sentence, the thought occurred to me that these people are mentally ill in the extreme, and that they are twisting religion around in an attempt to "legitimize" their perverted thinking.

By the time I got to your third sentence I realized you were saying much the same thing.

That, or maybe they're just evil SOBs.

[XNine]

Between reading your second and third sentence, the thought occurred to me that these people are mentally ill in the extreme, and that they are twisting religion around in an attempt to "legitimize" their perverted thinking.

By the time I got to your third sentence I realized you were saying much the same thing.

That, or maybe they're just evil SOBs.

I think perhaps this person is someone who may follow the true principles of Christianity, and is sick of seeing everyone else abuse it and twist it to meet dubious political agendas.

[leekohler]

So hey- I'll bite, when do we get to say anyone who's Christian gets the death penalty? :rolleyes: Funny that no one would dare say that and yet these people can say that they'll kill homosexuals and everyone just dismisses them as crazy. Wake up, guys. The inmates are almost running the asylum.

[solvs]

By the time I got to your third sentence I realized you were saying much the same thing.
Yep. Surprised this isn't more obvious to people. I've seen it first hand with some people who are very mentally disturbed and separated from reality. They use religion to justify how they feel. Others who aren't as crazy but still just as hateful do the same thing. Just look at Jihadists. Same principle. Some of us approach religion with a desire for a belief in something, but still a critical eye for bs from false prophets and those who use religion to promote their agendas. Often which have nothing to do with the true words of Jesus, who actually spoke out against such people, as he did against the "ways of old" as I said above.

No comment about my 4th sentence?

The inmates are almost running the asylum.
Almost?

[Thomas Veil]

No comment about my 4th sentence? Just that you were obviously in a religious mania when you wrote it. ;) :D

[solvs]

Just that you were obviously in a religious mania when you wrote it. ;) :D
Well I did used to be a reverend, but I was never good at all that "fire and brimstone" stuff. Notice there was no smilie next to my comment though. I'll bet every one of the people supporting this have committed worse sins, and as such, by they're own laws, they have to be stoned to death.

Of course, they could just get stoned... that'd fix 'em too!