New PowerMacs and 20" LCD

[MacRumors]

New PowerMacs and a 20" LCD has been released by Apple. Previous rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/01/20030126000753.shtml) were remarkably accurate.

The new PowerMac tops out at Dual 1.42GHz, and all the PowerMacs have been bumped to Firewire 800. The current Low-End model is 1GHz at $1499.

A new 20" LCD has also been introduced at 1680x1050 resolution... for $1299.

iMacs appear not to have been updated, but are still expected shortly.

[pmcaleer]

Wow, and they're cheaper. Very nice move!

[Mr. Anderson]

Wow, that's a nice price for the 20" LCD, very cool. Now if when they upgrade the PowerMacs with the IBM 970 I'll get a pair of them. :D

[arvidvdb]

Yipeeyayee.
Just the screen for my needs.

[iSmell]

Sweet. Compared to the 23" lcd, I think that's a pretty good price for the 20". I'm disappointed that they haven't changed the enclosure though.

[G4scott]

holy crap! That's cool!

I just realized something. These are probably the last PowerMacs that will ever have G4's. The G4 era is coming to an end (although they'll still live in consumer computers.)

I think I might shed a tear...

or not...

Well, I think we all know what's coming this fall!

[reflex]

Looks like they're still selling MacOS 9 enabled Powermacs.

[moby1]

http://a208.g.akamai.net/7/208/51/45b86025f10fd1/www.apple.com/displays/acd20/images/top_012503.jpg

Fantastic value! Me want! Apple is off to quite a good start this year!

...and this on the new PowerMacs;

"The new SuperDrive writes DVD-R discs at 4x " Nice!

...also

"The DVI to ADC Adapter...And it’s now just $99."

Very, very nice.

[Mr. Anderson]

But look at the price drop on the 23"!!! Its only 1999 now. Holy crap! That's huge, about $1.5k off, ~40%!!! :D

D

[iJon]

this monitor is just what apple needed. this will get us back in the game, i cant wait to call my customers and that means my dual ghz goes back in the box and i get a new dual 1.25. one thing i noticed is the dual 1.25 doesnt have a superdrive, probably a smart move because it will convince people to go with the higher end one of get a new imac when it comes out. all i can say is i cant wait till i get that new monitor.

iJon

[springscansing]

Amazingly good pricing. That new dual 1ghz is a nice value. *pets his dual 867*

I no longer have a new mac, aww, lol.

Ah well.. I'm selling it to get a 970 in a year anyway. ;-)

Very good pricing on the monitors too. Personally, I got a 21" Sony flatscreen CRT for $550, and I'm very happy. :D

[Tiauguinho]

Im gonna buy!!!!!! 2 new 20'' displays for me!!!!

If i had the moeny i would get a tower! RADEON 9700 PRO! Bluetooth included! 21 Gigaflops!!!!

[pkradd]

Now that the Pro product has been upgraded all around, I suspect the Consumer stuff will follow, possibly as early as next Tuesday (Feb. 3).

[yamadataro]

Wow!!!!!

The new screens are more exciting than the 12" PowerBook for me! (not quite as exciting as the 17" :D)

I can't believe the prices of these when I think about the 22's original cost was like $4000! We've come a long way I guess.

23 Cinema looks affordable enough now! And I think the 20" will sell pretty well for graphic pros.

And yeah, I think they should have changed the case design too. Apple should say good-bye to that clear platic. I hate them! They get scrachy and dirty real easily...

[reflex]

Originally posted by springscansing
Amazingly good pricing. That new dual 1ghz is a nice value

It doesn't look like there is a dual 1GHz anymore.

[littlerich]

I like to keep a track of the way that apple moves and I think its great that they do all this upgrading but when I get a new machine I might aswell get a pc. I have just bought a dual 1ghz and am pretty pissed off at the fact if I had waited until now then I could have got a dual 1.25 for the same price.. Or if I didn't get the dual 1.25 now just wait till August to get a dual 1.42 for the same price.. This never used to be like apple... If you buy an apple it usually keeps its value but the way thing are going it seems that apple may and possibly will lose alot of sales to pc's unless they make their prices as cheap as them and as cheap to upgrade. Anyone agree?

[Clockwork]

I wonder if these machines feature the 7457 chip?

[NicoMan]

I ordered 2 PMacs dual gig 4 days ago for my company. Doh!!!!!!!!!
Me is well sshtupid!!!


NicoMan

[gopher]

$300 off!

Now I only wish the 17" separate Flat Panel was widescreen like the 20". Oh well...

[Bear]

For a top end PowerMac plus 23" screen, the price has dropped over $2000.

The Dual 1.43 machines have a "4-6 week leadtime". I guess I'll find out how it is when it shows up. (Yes, I just ordered one.)

[cr2sh]

A 23" HighDef display for $2k.... oh my god that's amazing.

I really didn't expect this lineup to get called this morning, so when are the Imacs coming? Great job apple!

Dual 1.42s.. goddamn!

[iJon]

Originally posted by reflex


It doesn't look like there is a dual 1GHz anymore.
yeah there is, look at the low end one. apple always does this. the move each computer down the row and introduce a new high end. now i get a new dual 1.25, apple 20 inch, and a 12 inch powermac. now im set boys.

iJon

[gopher]

Nice. Now you can have a Superdrive PowerMac tower for $1699.

[littlerich]

Originally posted by iJon

yeah there is, look at the low end one. apple always does this. the move each computer down the row and introduce a new high end. now i get a new dual 1.25, apple 20 inch, and a 12 inch powermac. now im set boys.

iJon

iJon, its just a single 1ghz processor in the low end machine.

[rugby]

Originally posted by iJon

yeah there is, look at the low end one. apple always does this. the move each computer down the row and introduce a new high end. now i get a new dual 1.25, apple 20 inch, and a 12 inch powermac. now im set boys.

iJon

Here's the low one, there's only 1 cpu on it:

$1,499.00 Image
Image 1GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
256MB DDR266 SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/100
Combo drive
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX
64MB DDR video memory
FireWire 800
56K internal modem
Bluetooth Ready

[maehara]

Originally posted by littlerich
I have just bought a dual 1ghz and am pretty pissed off at the fact if I had waited until now then I could have got a dual 1.25 for the same price.. Or if I didn't get the dual 1.25 now just wait till August to get a dual 1.42 for the same price.. This never used to be like apple... If you buy an apple it usually keeps its value but the way thing are going it seems that apple may and possibly will lose alot of sales to pc's unless they make their prices as cheap as them and as cheap to upgrade.

PC's are just as bad, if not worse... If you're always worried about your machine - PC or Mac - being upgraded just down the line you'll never buy anything.

Relax & enjoy the machine you've got. It's still a better spec than the new entry-level PowerMac.

[NatronB]

Originally posted by littlerich
I like to keep a track of the way that apple moves and I think its great that they do all this upgrading but when I get a new machine I might aswell get a pc. I have just bought a dual 1ghz and am pretty pissed off at the fact if I had waited until now then I could have got a dual 1.25 for the same price..

I'm sorry about your predicament, I really am. Nothing is more depressing than seeing your hard earned cash disappear before your eyes. With that said, the PowerMac line hasn't been upgraded for about 5 months, and you had to see this coming. It's the nature of the beast.

Furthermore, you'll be hard pressed to find a computer that keeps it's usability and value like a Mac.

-Nate

[cr2sh]

Note that the new superdrive writes dvdr at 4X.

[iJon]

Originally posted by littlerich


iJon, its just a single 1ghz processor in the low end machine.
oh really, didnt notice that, i got ahead of myself, im in school right now so i cant spen to much time. thanks for the correction, slipped past me.

iJon

[arn]

Originally posted by littlerich
I like to keep a track of the way that apple moves and I think its great that they do all this upgrading but when I get a new machine I might aswell get a pc. I have just bought a dual 1ghz and am pretty pissed off at the fact if I had waited until now then I could have got a dual 1.25 for the same price.. Or if I didn't get the dual 1.25 now just wait till August to get a dual 1.42 for the same price.. This never used to be like apple... If you buy an apple it usually keeps its value but the way thing are going it seems that apple may and possibly will lose alot of sales to pc's unless they make their prices as cheap as them and as cheap to upgrade. Anyone agree?

not to kick you when you're down... cause I understand the frustration... but PowerMacs have been updated every 6 months for the past 2-3 years. We're coming on the 6th month.

I'm sorry that you weren't aware of that... and I suppose I should make that clearer on th site.

arn

[irmongoose]

Originally posted by iJon
now i get a new dual 1.25, apple 20 inch, and a 12 inch powermac.

A 12 inch PowerMac?? Woah that's amazing... do they have a 1.42 GHz in that model too?? :eek: :eek:

:rolleyes:

Anyways, amazing new display, great price cuts.. Apple is going the right way here, even though they said it was the "year of the laptop".. just hope they continue doing this throughout the year.

Oh, and it's good to see that all those sources arn uses weren't wrong :D




irmongoose

[jamilecrire]

Originally posted by maehara


PC's are just as bad, if not worse... If you're always worried about your machine - PC or Mac - being upgraded just down the line you'll never buy anything.

Relax & enjoy the machine you've got. It's still a better spec than the new entry-level PowerMac.

Or better yet just keep up with the rumor sites and you'll have a decent picture of what is coming. Duhhhhhh....

[3777]

Formac will have to cut the price on their monitor now

[iSmell]

Originally posted by iJon
one thing i noticed is the dual 1.25 doesnt have a superdrive, probably a smart move because it will convince people to go with the higher end one of get a new imac when it comes out.

The superdrive is available as a BTO optioin on all three models for an additional $200. No need to get the high end processor just to get the superdrive.
Also, Bluetooth seems to be an option as well, not built in.

[djniche]

Excellent pricing.. 1299 for 20!! great I would think in the future they might update the 17 as widescreen. Powermac now at 1500!
all around great updates. I'm hoping I can have that setup by the end of the year.

apple now get the ilife up for download!
we need also the new ipod 40Gig???

[Trekkie]

Screw the new PowerMac. Did you see that price on the 23" HD Display? $1999????

Holy Cow!

I've been lusting after the PM / 23" Display, and I just built a config on Apple and it's only $4000 now instead of $7000! That's with the 1.42 GHZ model.

Wow. Great price drop. Wonder if all the press about 'Yeah, GHz doesn't matter, but when it's 3 to 1 it does' helped with that.

Now, when the ATI 9700 is available for order, I may just go for it.

[jayscheuerle]

Nice, tight, decent resolution on the 20". Now, if they'd only get the 15" and 17" ones up to that level of pixel density...

[Ambrose Chapel]

So for all you Pro users out there - how well is this price cut on the towers swaying you towards buying now rather than waiting for the next revision and the likely introduction of the Power Mac 970?

I would think that this price cut was done primarily to give potential buyers a reason to buy now rather than wait for the next big thing which we all know is further on up the road and fast approaching.

[cr2sh]

Sure.. the p4 is at 3.06 or whatever, but we're at 1.42 now with dualy and it feels good to be a Mac guy again. This system is stunning, the os is amazing, and it's absolutely blazing fast.
If only we could get shipping times down...

Year of the laptop. :rolleyes:

[paulie]

The new single 1GHz PowerMac, with a 17" studio display, speakers, 80GB HD, and a superdrive comes to 315,000 yen (sorry, I'm gonna buy it here in Tokyo, so pricing here)..

If we predict a 1GHz iMac coming out next Tuesday, but otherwise keep the specs of the current 17" iMac, and the same pricing, that's 249,000 yen.

What's the benefit to me of paying almost 70,000 yen more for the same machine specs? Is there really going to be that much of a performance difference just from the DDR (or fake DDR) RAM, the 133mhz bus and the 1MB L3 cache?

I realize that it's adding 802.11g and Firewire2, but those require me to purchase even MORE hardware. My ADSL is only 12 Mbps anyway, so my current Airport (AirMac here in Japan) setup is just fine, and I don't own any firewire2 devices.

I'm considering getting rid of the iBook (it's a short commute from Shibuya to Daikanyama) and going to a desktop in the next few weeks. Any advice on a good purchase here would be more than helpful.

Cheers!

[barkmonster]

Radeon 9700 is a BTO option now. :D

All models have 64Mb VRAM. :D

The entry level is a single cpu model with only 1Mb of L3 :mad:

They still only have 256K L2, that means they're not 7457 G4s. :confused:

That 20" LCD is amazing, the prices on the displays are amazing. :)

I can't afford any of them but I'm definately going to upgrade my beige G3 and wait a while so I can afford an new powermac of ANY spec just so I've got one of those amazing displays.

I'm quite annoyed that it's taken over 5 years for the entry level model to hit 1Ghz and now it has, the previous 867Mhz model is better suited to what I'd want it for.

I wonder if the cooling has been improved and any motherboard bugs effecting audio cards have been solved ? If they're just as noisy or buggy as the older DDR models I'm less than impressed.

[MacsRgr8]

Gr8!

WOW.... they even have the ATI Radeon 9700 Pro coming soon!

I think I'm going for the Dual 1.25 GHz with a Radeon 9700 Pro.... drool, drool.... can't wait.

[Chaszmyr]

I just ordered myself a 20'' cinema... I just wish i could trade in my current 22'' cinema for a second 20'' so i would have matching displays.

[littlerich]

I still love my little dual 1ghz.. now I just want to start developing on the thing.. Anyone no of any books for learning objective c?

[iJon]

Originally posted by irmongoose


A 12 inch PowerMac?? Woah that's amazing... do they have a 1.42 GHz in that model too?? :eek: :eek:

:rolleyes:

Anyways, amazing new display, great price cuts.. Apple is going the right way here, even though they said it was the "year of the laptop".. just hope they continue doing this throughout the year.

Oh, and it's good to see that all those sources arn uses weren't wrong :D




irmongoose
damn, see what school does to you when your excited about mac products. but yes, my statement is true, there is a 12 lcd that flips out of the side of the computer,haha. i meant powebook but i think you all knew that.

iJon

[iGav]

Originally posted by Chaszmyr
I just ordered myself a 20'' cinema... I just wish i could trade in my current 22'' cinema for a second 20'' so i would have matching displays.

How ever will you survive..... :eek: :eek: :p :p

[DakotaGuy]

1.42 Dual...I know most people on here are going to complain that is too slow and would get kicked by a Celeron...but I would have to think that thing must be a fast computer!!!

[iGav]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
1.42 Dual...I know most people on here are going to complain that is too slow and would get kicked by a Celeron...but I would have to think that thing must be a fast computer!!!

I reckon it'll be a tad dandy on the performance as well!! ;)

[iJon]

no bluetooth either, not that i really care but i thought they would throw it on the mobo, oh well 50 for a module isnt that bad but it takes up from the very few usb ports we had in the first place.

iJon

[KLFloyd]

Originally posted by pkradd
Now that the Pro product has been upgraded all around, I suspect the Consumer stuff will follow, possibly as early as next Tuesday (Feb. 3).

Really? I hope so.

I haven't been following the mac product distribution cycle for very long so maybe someone can help me out here. Is it odd for Apple to introduce new software and new laptops at Macworld, then just a few weeks later introduce new PowerMacs and new monitors, and (as many are suggesting) new iMacs and (maybe--I hope) new iPods a week later? Do they normally do thigns like this? I mean that's the just about whole product line right there.


What do you all think the chances of us seeing iMac and/or iPod upgrades next week?

Thanks!

[noelmac75]

Thank God, now I can get my powermac,Ive been waiting for this day way before christmas, I might go for the 1Ghz and add a superdrive or something. I still like the enclosure, I dont know how you cold change it anyway, its brilliant, wonder if they will still be noisy though,does anyone know the prices the lineup are in UK sterling, i've tried to go on the apple store and it asid come back in an hour.

[moby1]

Originally posted by cr2sh
Year of the laptop. :rolleyes:

Steve should'a said "Year of the LCD" :)

[maehara]

Originally posted by maehara
PC's are just as bad, if not worse... If you're always worried about your machine - PC or Mac - being upgraded just down the line you'll never buy anything.

Relax & enjoy the machine you've got. It's still a better spec than the new entry-level PowerMac.

Originally posted by jamilecrire
Or better yet just keep up with the rumor sites and you'll have a decent picture of what is coming. Duhhhhhh....

...which is why I'm putting up with this PC for a while longer. They've gotta update the iMac's eventually...!

Besides, I'm still a newbie 'round here, so I didn't want to be *too* harsh on the guy...

[mcrain]

Originally posted by arn


not to kick you when you're down... cause I understand the frustration... but PowerMacs have been updated every 6 months for the past 2-3 years. We're coming on the 6th month.

I'm sorry that you weren't aware of that... and I suppose I should make that clearer on th site.

arn

A counter of some sort that ticks off months and days for each model since the last upgrade would be interesting, and a quick reference for the uninitiated.

I think making that information clearer in the site in some way is a great idea Arn.

[drastik]

drastik stumbles into work, makes coffee while the dreaded NT workstation boots up. First order of bus9iness, is there a war yet? Second, go on over to Macrumors...

..Holy ****ing...

1.42!!!!! 20"!!!!!

I'm completely stoked. A wonderfull surprise from Apple.:D

[Trekkie]

Learning Objective-C with Cocoa by O'Reily is a pretty good step by step intro to Objective C and the latest development tools from Apple with step by step walkthrough.

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by iJon
no bluetooth either, not that i really care but i thought they would throw it on the mobo, oh well 50 for a module isnt that bad but it takes up from the very few usb ports we had in the first place.

iJon

Well, they are Bluetooth ready... (does that mean it uses a USB port?)

[crassusad44]

This is goooood news. Nice prices too.

And I want a 20" Cinema Display!!!!!! droooool :)

[Sol]

The low end PowerMac loses its good value now that it sports a single CPU. Perhaps all the other 1 GHz CPUs are going in the new iMacs & eMacs.

[Gus]

I couldn't remember, were the sysstem busses in the old 1.25's always at 167? I saw that on the specs page and couldn't remember.

Regards,
Gus

[FlamDrag]

All of you scoffing at SJ's "year of the laptop" quote...

Just imagine if it reallly IS YOtL. Who knows what's in store.

The price drop alone on these machines is such a nice move. You can still get a decent entry level PC for less but not much. That's the greatest part to me. Switchers who don't want an iMac only have to shell out 1500 clams. Beauty.

[primalman]

Seeing the Apple web site this morning almost knocked me over, was not quite expecting this today. Wow!

That said, i have been waiting to buy PMs for my office, which is at a university. Now I can, and I was even more blown away by the edu pricing! Check this out:

retail edu individual edu school
PM 1G $1,499 $1,449 $1,299
PM 1.25G $1,999 $1,899 $1,799
PM 1.42G $2,699 $2,549 $2,399

17" LCD $699 $649 $599
20" LCD $1,299 $1,249 $1,169
23" LCD $1,999 $1,899 $1,799

Holy *%$@ Batman! If one can buy edu prices, more power to ya! I may get to get the 23" displays for the office!!! Life is good.

This, IMHO, is a full front offensive to get people to buy Apple. Period. These prices are really competative, especially the displays, way cheaper for the 20" and 23" than anyone else, no one is close. And when is the last time the mid rnage PM was below $2000? At least 1998, when we had the PM G3 beige and the 266 DT was $1999.

This is huge!

[drastik]

Blue tooth as an option makes some sense. It comes standard on the powerbooks besause a bluetooth module will stick out and get broken. Also, a laptop is mobile, so not having tobe tied by cords at all ala blue tooth, makes sense. The powermac, however, isn't meant to be moved around all the time. its tied to a physical location, pretty much, and bound to a power cord anyway, as well as monitor cord, key board, etc. If you want to clear most of those cabels away, you can get the adapter, but most people don't need it. Apple is obviously trying to break down the price barier a bit, and everything helps. Bluetooth is for mobile pros, really, but you can use it on a stationary computer, anyway. Personaly, I don't have a need yet. I use airport to share my printers, and I don't even have a base station, just two cards.

[Gus]

Anybody notice this tag? It's on the PowerMac page. Does this mean that the new systems come with ONLY 10.2 unless you buy a machine in this link?

Regards,
Gus

[Bear]

Originally posted by iJon
no bluetooth either, not that i really care but i thought they would throw it on the mobo, oh well 50 for a module isnt that bad but it takes up from the very few usb ports we had in the first place.
iJon

If I read the specifications correctly, Bluetooth is an internal option on the new Powermacs, so it seems like it wouldn't use a USB slot. If you look at the PowerMac G4 Data Sheet pdf at the Built To Order section on the second page it say "built in Blue Tooth module".

I too hope it's an internal option. Maybe their thought was: "You are at home, you can use the cradle for the product to sync it up." which would explain why it was an option.

[howard]

these upgrades a great and should hold off till a new chip...the 9700 vid card is a pleasant surprise for sure...seems like everything was upgrade a little...plus all the peripheral upgrades...

but after hearing everyone's posts i read a lot of, thats really cool, can't wait till 970 comes out or that looks really cool but i can't buy it. well i hope somebody does!!!

at least almost everyone wants to jump in line for one of those displays...i know i would if i didn't have an ibook...

[FlamDrag]

"Should Apple reduce its price on any shipped product within 10 calendar days of
shipment, you may contact Apple Sales Support at 1-800-676-2775 to request a
refund or credit of the difference between the price you were charged and the
current selling price. To receive the refund or credit you must contact Apple within 14 business days of shipment."

They didn't drop the price on any existing product, they changed them completely.

However if you JUST ordered a cinema display, GET YOUR $1500 BACK in a hurry.

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Trekkie
Screw the new PowerMac. Did you see that price on the 23" HD Display? $1999????

Holy Cow!

I've been lusting after the PM / 23" Display, and I just built a config on Apple and it's only $4000 now instead of $7000! That's with the 1.42 GHZ model.

Wow. Great price drop. Wonder if all the press about 'Yeah, GHz doesn't matter, but when it's 3 to 1 it does' helped with that.

Now, when the ATI 9700 is available for order, I may just go for it.

The release may have been anticipated and the specs fairly well estimated, but, surprise!

Price, price, price.

A super low end price CPU with full access to BTO. Great. HUGE price reductions on displays making Apple not only competitive but on the leading edge of retail store offerings.

Looks like the "year of the laptop" is morphing into the year of the display and fast I/O.

Rocketman.

What's next, faster processors? :)

[Gus]

I don't think these machines are OS 9 bootable guys.

Regards,
Gus

[mk_in_mke]

Such a smart move from Apple... They are on the right track with pro consumers and I bet you that more and more studio are gonna order this amazing 23" screens!!!...

Guys has anyone any idea How Apple carry their tests? The Apple web site says "1.42 DP is 32% faster than 3Ghz PC"... Where do they get their numbers?

Michel

[pseudobrit]

If you bought a dual 1GHz for $1600, you got an arguably better deal than what's available now. Going by education prices, the dual 1.25 runs $1900.

If I want 333 DDR RAM, I now have to spend $1900.

You got a good deal on a good Mac. The only thing missing from yours is the Airport Extreme (how many of us actually need 54Mbps over 11, eh?) and FireWire 800 (again, 400 is enough for most of us).

Be happy!

You don't think all the people that are buying a G4 dual 1.42 are going to be depressed when the IBM G5 hits the market?

Think of it this way -- you can get a new 3+GHz dual G5 machine in two years, and 250 or 420MHz is going to mean jack squat. You have a machine that is faster than it needs to be 95% of the time.
***
I have to say though, that the LCD displays just keep getting to be better and better every six months. I can get a 23" HD for $1899, and yesterday would have spent $3500.

[krhodus]

when browsing the Apple Store, I noticed that now you can't get a SCSI harddrive, they are all ATA. Is that a difference between OS X and OS 9? The old ones you could get SCSI.

[technocoy]

i've been buying macs for awhile now, but i must say that this time i'm a little miffed at apple. I just got the new 1ghz SD Ti in december, and i was thinking, oh, i should get the 22in now since i can save $400. my thinking being that they were going to release a 19-20in at the 2000-2100 price range. Now i'm like, ****e!!! must say i'm a little miffed:( :mad:

i still love my pb though, even though i'm a designer, i can't see the use (for me) in the 17in gargantuan bastard!!!

the screens anger me a bit.

it's funny even though you know the nature of the beast when buying apple, you still realize they need some kind of price drop rebate or something... oh, well

i would sell my 22in and get the 23.... but with the price on that 20in, who's gonna buy mine???!!!

with my bitches bitched, i will say this is a wonderful move for apple, and i'm looking forward to the year ahead!! maybe when i get my 970 powermac end-of-year, i'll get the 23in.

thanks for listening to the rant,
technocoy:o

[yamadataro]

Originally posted by Gus
Anybody notice this tag? It's on the PowerMac page. Does this mean that the new systems come with ONLY 10.2 unless you buy a machine in this link?

Regards,
Gus

It probably means you get OS X boot-only PM unless you follow that link to the OS9 bootable PM. I guess slight hardware difference?

[robguz]

Some observations

The OS9 1.25 costs 2499, $500 more than the new one but with superdrive, 2MB L3.

USB ports now up to 4, but only 1 FW 800.

The $1499 low end price is great, but the DP867 was probably their best seller in the old tower lineup. This takes away the incentive for developers to DP optimize their software. Why not a DP 933. Keep a DP at the low end!

Price drops are quite large all around, but the 17" should be $499 and should be much brighter. A new monitor case design couldn't hurt.

1.42 is almost 42% faster than a year ago. Not bad, but off course, still not at the pace of the wintel world. We have to grow n speed faster than they do to ever catch up. This actually puts us further behind that a year ago. Still, it's a bigger gain that in the previous year which jumped from 733 to 1GHz.

overall, not bad speed bumps and the price cuts for a really high end user are amazing. A top end tower plus 23" display costs 2 grand less than yesterday!

The new 20" is great, and I want one, but $1300 is too much for me, although I think it's currently competetive with others, in 6 months it will probably still cost 1300 while other 20" models sink below 800, although without the widescreen aspect ratio.

[robguz]

Originally posted by mk_in_mke
ns!!!...

Guys has anyone any idea How Apple carry their tests? The Apple web site says "1.42 DP is 32% faster than 3Ghz PC"... Where do they get their numbers?

Michel

They do a few biased photoshop filters which make use of DP and AltiVec. That even with their biased best case scenario it's only 32% faster is not good. you could easily choose some other functions where that same PC is "up to" 200-300% faster.

[Ambrose Chapel]

It probably means you get OS X boot-only PM unless you follow that link to the OS9 bootable PM. I guess slight hardware difference?

That link takes you to the old dual 1.25 Power Mac, which you can still buy for OS 9 booting.

[hobie]

...and now they offer true BTO options....
RAM, HD, Monitors, Bluetooth, BOTH optical drives (bays), Graphics, Second Monitor, Modem...

I can smell a bit Dell in here :p

[iAlan]

GREAT!! Apple has made a very bold and positive decision. These upgrades should help keep those complaining about the pro line a little more pleased.

But I am wondering, all those posters who are saying "YEAH!!", will they buy anything? It seems that half the posters here are always waiting for the next best thing and are all happy when it arrives, then a month later start complaining things aren't to their liking, and want yet another next best thing. Do these people have loads of cash to keep buying new stuff, and are these the same people who will wait for the 970, or do they not buy stuff at all but wish Apple had the best stuff on the planet anyway?

Also, there will always be those who say...oh ****! I just bought X and Y and now they have X-1 and Y-1 and much cheaper. Well, all computer companies do this - revise model specs and drop prices...it is the nature of the beast - technology. I would be pissed too, but we have to deal with it or forever wait and not buy anything.

Anyway, well done Apple, I hope we will see a very positive upward trend in sales over the next few months. (and sorry for the negativity in the above coupla' paragraphs)

[DakotaGuy]

So with all the excitement with the new PowerMacs and the new Laptops...will we see new iMac/eMacs in the next few weeks? months? The iMac/eMac lines seem pretty old and outdated now I don't see how they can keep selling them with only an 800Mhz processor when almost every other product minus the iBook is running at 1Ghz or more...

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by robguz
Some observations


Price drops are quite large all around, but the 17" should be $499 and should be much brighter. A new monitor case design couldn't hurt.


You're crazy, there's no way it should be that cheap.

OMG, I'm still swalloing these price cuts. I'm in shock. I mean..in shock. I have the cinema display and I paid $2500 for it. Now the 23" HD is what, $400 less then mine and it's brand new? The 20" is $1699 while Apple's nearest competitor is Formac and thier 20" is $1700? Wow, Apple is finally getting it. I'm just in so much shock and disbelief.

I'm also saddened by the notion that I won't be getting as much for my 22" cinema disaplay on ebay now either.

[Moxiemike]

someday.... oh someday... i'm gonna order the powermac configured with EVERYTHING:

hm. should i get a car or a mac? (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/83/wo/6w5OwZsjlT743JY2MipLzntBdtW/1.7.0.3.27.1)

[srobert]

Out of curiosity I went to ebay and checked how many people have placed a bid on a 17 incher and are now obliged to pay more for a used than a new.

[waterbouy]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
someday.... oh someday... i'm gonna order the powermac configured with EVERYTHING:

hm. should i get a car or a mac? (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/83/wo/6w5OwZsjlT743JY2MipLzntBdtW/1.7.0.3.27.1)

I would go for the Mac!!! Cars are a lot of work... :)

[hobie]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
someday.... oh someday... i'm gonna order the powermac configured with EVERYTHING:

hm. should i get a car or a mac? (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/83/wo/6w5OwZsjlT743JY2MipLzntBdtW/1.7.0.3.27.1)

You forgot some bits and pieces. Here's all in:
PM fully loaded and featured (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/224/wo/XJ16OfehMJbP2fVujBe1J1iJ4UY/2.7.0.3.27.1)

[barkmonster]

Thank God, now I can get my powermac,Ive been waiting for this day way before christmas, I might go for the 1Ghz and add a superdrive or something. I still like the enclosure, I dont know how you cold change it anyway, its brilliant, wonder if they will still be noisy though,does anyone know the prices the lineup are in UK sterling, i've tried to go on the apple store and it asid come back in an hour.

Here's the UK prices with the standard US Dollar overcharge in brackets (taking into account V.A.T.) :mad:

Powermac Prices

fast £1,149 ($ +97.77)
faster £1,599 ($ +223.13)
fastest £2,099 ($ +217.98)
ultimate £2,949.11 ($ +299.38) Daylight robbery

Monitor Prices

17" £5,49 ($ -36.05) The US are paying more than the UK for a change!
20" £1,099 ($ +228.28)
23" £1,699 ($ +362.10) ouch!

I think I'm going to have to add "Mac's Rule - Apple SUCKS!" to my sig if this overcharging doesn't stop.

Anyone noticed how the rumour about them offering a dual 1.25Ghz model with OS 9 booting is true ? That's the biggest insult of all, they overcharge EVERYONE for that by at least $300 taking into account the superdrive. It does have a 2Mb L3 unlike the new 1.25GHz model but it's certainly not worth the extra money they're charging for it.

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Gus
I don't think these machines are OS 9 bootable guys.

Regards,
Gus

If you go to the powermac page and click on buy now the page comes up with the button on the right with OS9. The option there as compared to the new system is like this:

OS9 Boot version
$2,499.00

Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
2MB L3 cache/processor
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
120GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
Mac OS 9 boot supported

(more L3, more RAM, OS9, more HD)
FW800, modem not listed.


OSX boot version
$1,999.00

Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache/processor
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA/100
Combo Drive
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
64MB DDR video memory
FireWire 800
56K internal modem
Bluetooth Ready

Not a bad deal since the added price includes L3, RAM and HD capacity added.

Alot of these machines are sold to customers of VAR's with software that is OS9.

Rocketman

Steve promised CRT's were dead. Hence the eMac.

Steve promised OS9 was dead. Hence this machine.

[cyks]

lol, Moxie..but you really should get Applecare on that system. ;)

I'm a proud owner of a Dual MDD 1Ghz... I bought it in early Sept - and still couldn't be happier... it's the nature of the game to be left by the side just a few months after you get it.
Just have to cherrish the months we've had together before there were any other options. :)

Just out of curiousity... I wonder if these new systems will have the same problems as the 1st line of MDD's... loud fan and audio issues. Guess we'll have to wait on the reports when they're shipped.

[Backtothemac]

Well, I am exited about them. If anyone would like a great price on one just drop me an email or a PM.

Oh, and sorry, but isn't Apples prices in Britain and overseas higher because of Tarriff's that your countries place on Apple :)

[lmalave]

Wow. These continual price drops give me high hopes for the iMac/eMac updates. I say do more or less the same as for the PowerMacs: $200 price drop (esp. important on the low-end model), and add new features like FW 800, Airport Extreme, and Bluetooth, plus a slight speed bump.

I'm really happy there's a $1500 PowerMac. This gives me some hope that my next desktop purchase will be a 970-equipped PowerMac for $1500 or less.

[hobie]

Originally posted by barkmonster


Here's the UK prices with the standard US Dollar overcharge in brackets (taking into account V.A.T.) :mad:

Powermac Prices

fast £1,149 ($ +97.77)
faster £1,599 ($ +223.13)
fastest £2,099 ($ +217.98)
ultimate £2,949.11 ($ +299.38) Daylight robbery

Monitor Prices

17" £5,49 ($ -36.05) The US are paying more than the UK for a change!
20" £1,099 ($ +228.28)
23" £1,699 ($ +362.10) ouch!

I think I'm going to have to add "Mac's Rule - Apple SUCKS!" to my sig if this overcharging doesn't stop.

Anyone noticed how the rumour about them offering a dual 1.25Ghz model with OS 9 booting is true ? That's the biggest insult of all, they overcharge EVERYONE for that by at least $300 taking into account the superdrive. It does have a 2Mb L3 unlike the new 1.25GHz model but it's certainly not worth the extra money they're charging for it.

Ever noticed how much VAT Tony charges???!? 17.5% is ridiculous, compared to what, 16% in Germany, 13 or so in Holland, and 12% in the US (I might be wrong though on the US part, I'm from the UK).

So don't blame it on Apple, it's what Governments call "Domestic Market Protection". Import taxes, VAT, Export taxes... take any tax you want.

BTW, ever compared UK beer prices to beer prices in Germany?? (Don't forget to call the ambulance first!) :D

[OSeXy!]

The price breaks on the displays are amazing!

The drops on the PMacs are just necessary, if anyone is going to buy them. I wouldn't expect the 970s to be so affordable. People will be willing to pay whatever Apple wants for those...

[praetorian_x]

[Our hero wakes up sick and dejected about another day a f'in work. Brings up NetNewsWire and starts trolling the news sites. Notices with pleasure that MacRumors has a story. Checks it]

OMFG!

[Coffee shoots through nose]

Apple is competing on... *PRICE*?!?!

[Turns on Weather Channel to see temperatures in Hell]

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by lmalave
Wow. These continual price drops give me high hopes for the iMac/eMac updates. I say do more or less the same as for the PowerMacs: $200 price drop (esp. important on the low-end model), and add new features like FW 800, Airport Extreme, and Bluetooth, plus a slight speed bump.


The question is how many more weeks or months do we have to wait for them? Two weeks? A month? 3 months? any one have any clue when we might see new i/e Macs?

[terkans]

Quoted from MacCentral:

The noise level was one of the biggest complaints many customers had with the previous generation Power Macs. According to Apple, this problem has been fixed and customers will be happy with the results of the work put into correcting this issue.

"We worked really hard and went over the systems to find every possible way to make the system quieter," said Tom Boger, Director, Power Mac Product Marketing. "I'm happy to tell you that we've done that -- when the systems get out in the marketplace, I'm sure our customers are going to be delighted at how quiet these systems are."

"They are significantly quieter -- these will answer the critics," added Joswiak.

[Abstract]

Originally posted by Rocketman


If you go to the powermac page and click on buy now the page comes up with the button on the right with OS9. The option there as compared to the new system is like this:

OS9 Boot version
$2,499.00

Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
2MB L3 cache/processor
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
120GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
Mac OS 9 boot supported

(more L3, more RAM, OS9, more HD)
FW800, modem not listed.


OSX boot version
$1,999.00

Dual 1.25GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache/processor
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA/100
Combo Drive
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
64MB DDR video memory
FireWire 800
56K internal modem
Bluetooth Ready

Not a bad deal since the added price includes L3, RAM and HD capacity added.




Sorry, but how much L3 cache was there on the previous Dual 1.25Ghz model? And how much did the 1.25 model actually change, other than the addition of FW800? I certainly hope that they didn't make this model worse than it was before in order to lower the price.

And with all of you rejoicing over the 1.42 Ghz, how much of a performance boost is this minor 170 Mhz speed bump going to improve performance? I mean, the new displays and price drop are obviously great, and I'm glad they dropped the price of the PowerMac (they were dropped, right?), but the introduction of a single 1Mhz processor to the "PRO" line doesn't make much sense to me, and the speed bumps don't seem like such a big deal for all those people looking at their newly bought Dual 1.25Ghz models and thinking, "Damn, if I only waited....." For the PowerMac, I think the good thing about this update is the price drop, but that's really it.

[Bear]

Originally posted by iAlan
But I am wondering, all those posters who are saying "YEAH!!", will they buy anything? It seems that half the posters here are always waiting for the next best thing and are all happy when it arrives, then a month later start complaining things aren't to their liking, and want yet another next best thing. Do these people have loads of cash to keep buying new stuff, and are these the same people who will wait for the 970, or do they not buy stuff at all but wish Apple had the best stuff on the planet anyway?

That would be an interesting poll to take, but I doubt it would get a meaningful result.

I was waiting for a combination of this update being announced and a drop in the price of the LCD screens. I got a slightly smaller speed dump than I was hoping for, but got a much bigger than expected price drop on the 23" LCD. That combined with the price drops on the PowerMacs was very welcome. Roughly a 25% savings on what I ordered compared to what I would have paid last week for a [slightly] slower machine with lower capacity drives.

Unfortunatly it is a 4-6 week wait for what I ordered.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by littlerich
I like to keep a track of the way that apple moves and I think its great that they do all this upgrading but when I get a new machine I might aswell get a pc. I have just bought a dual 1ghz and am pretty pissed off at the fact if I had waited until now then I could have got a dual 1.25 for the same price.. Or if I didn't get the dual 1.25 now just wait till August to get a dual 1.42 for the same price.. This never used to be like apple... If you buy an apple it usually keeps its value but the way thing are going it seems that apple may and possibly will lose alot of sales to pc's unless they make their prices as cheap as them and as cheap to upgrade. Anyone agree? You must not follow macrumors to close otherwise you would have waited for the regular product cycles! this happened to me too, once with my 333 imac and then they went to an all new 350 and to my wifes 500 where a month later they came out with the emac!

[Tiauguinho]

True DDR?? Do i see clearly?????

[Marianco]

The 170 MHz increase in speed is for each processor. This means a 340 MHz total CPU increase on dual processor systems. That can come in very handy when multiprocessing and doing CPU intensive tasks.

Many benchmarks, including Photoshop benchmarks are not limited by the memory bandwidth. They are strictly limited by the CPU speed (e.g. look at Barefeets.com's benchmarks) Thus DDR memory is a minor issue. The faster CPUs will be a great improvement over the Dual 1 GHz G4s I bought last year.

[DharvaBinky]

So I was just reading the specs on the new machines... definately not the 7457 since it's still hamstrung with a 167MHz FSB. <shrug> So I won't be buying a new pro machine until the 970 or 7457s come out (if/when). However, an important topic of speculation for *me* is... when, oh, when, are they going to bring the 15" Powerbook into feature parity with the 12" and 17"? I would think that the 15" line sales are kinda hurt by the fact that it's *obvious* that soon, so soon, the 15" line will have DDR and APExtreme and BT etc...

Anyone care to hazard guesses as t the updated 15" specs and arrival times?

Also... Apple is still using UMA concept to keep costs down, right? that would explain the DDR on the new Powerbooks... same chip, just use the stuff that's already there. But my question is... does that mean that Firewire800 is *not* on the UMA chipset? It might not be, since the 12" PB lacks it. If it *were* in the chipset, adding it to any machine (including the 12") would be a simple matter of putting the port on the board (yah, right, but close.)...

If they are using the UMA chipsets, I guess we can expect to see fast FSBs, DDR, BT, and FW800 on the new iMacs, right?

Dharvabinky
Smiling Politely

[SteveG4Cube]

"You must not follow macrumors to close otherwise you would have waited for the regular product cycles! this happened to me too, once with my 333 imac and then they went to an all new 350 and to my wifes 500 where a month later they came out with the emac!"

The 500mhz iMac came out in mid 2000, the eMac was what, '02? How is that a month? You must have gotten the last one on the shelf!

[jamilecrire]

Originally posted by Trekkie
Screw the new PowerMac. Did you see that price on the 23" HD Display? $1999????

Holy Cow!

I've been lusting after the PM / 23" Display, and I just built a config on Apple and it's only $4000 now instead of $7000! That's with the 1.42 GHZ model.

Wow. Great price drop. Wonder if all the press about 'Yeah, GHz doesn't matter, but when it's 3 to 1 it does' helped with that.

Now, when the ATI 9700 is available for order, I may just go for it.

Actually if you goto clubmac.com you can get the 22" for 1494. Not to shabby.

[jamilecrire]

Originally posted by littlerich
I still love my little dual 1ghz.. now I just want to start developing on the thing.. Anyone no of any books for learning objective c?

Objective C http://www.mactech.com/macintosh-c/

Great site. I prefer java however since it is portable to windows, linux, and solaris to name a few. FYI - you can compile cocoa apps using java with the native tools. I suggest looking also at http://www.apple.com/developer/

[pseudobrit]

I wouldn't be too miffed about the PM differences. The displays, however, we should have forseen. LCD manufacturing is rapidly reaching maturity. Those $10,000 flat screens will cost $700 in 5 years.

[hibitdatman]

Quoted from MacCentral:


quote:
The noise level was one of the biggest complaints many customers had with the previous generation Power Macs. According to Apple, this problem has been fixed and customers will be happy with the results of the work put into correcting this issue.

"We worked really hard and went over the systems to find every possible way to make the system quieter," said Tom Boger, Director, Power Mac Product Marketing. "I'm happy to tell you that we've done that -- when the systems get out in the marketplace, I'm sure our customers are going to be delighted at how quiet these systems are."

"They are significantly quieter -- these will answer the critics," added Joswiak.


GOOD. So does that mean that, having admitted there was a problem, we are all going to get our noisy MDD's fixed for free? It should....

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by Trekkie
Learning Objective-C with Cocoa by O'Reily is a pretty good step by step intro to Objective C and the latest development tools from Apple with step by step walkthrough.
Actually, I was not that impressed with that book - it seems that the online pages at http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Cocoa/CocoaTopics.html contained the same info but free.

I do, however like Aaron Hillegass's book, "Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X" ( http://bignerdranch.com/Book/ )

[Approx]

Is this a windtonel? or a spacerocket? or a cute litte cat?

I have a mdd dp 1 ghz i have returned to the seller cause of the noise thay shuld sell it for me, but now thay have to lower the price. I am sad that this model came now. :( happy for the new.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by littlerich
I like to keep a track of the way that apple moves and I think its great that they do all this upgrading but when I get a new machine I might aswell get a pc. I have just bought a dual 1ghz and am pretty pissed off at the fact if I had waited until now then I could have got a dual 1.25 for the same price.. Or if I didn't get the dual 1.25 now just wait till August to get a dual 1.42 for the same price.. This never used to be like apple... If you buy an apple it usually keeps its value but the way thing are going it seems that apple may and possibly will lose alot of sales to pc's unless they make their prices as cheap as them and as cheap to upgrade. Anyone agree?

No offense but if you like to keep track of Apple's product cycle yer not doing a very good job of it. Apple's been giving the PMs facelifts every 6 months and people have been saying since Dec that the PM is due to get an upgrade very early in '03. What do you mean "This never used to be like apple."? What, did Apple used to wait 12 months between product cycles? And if you are so concered about always having the fastest rig on the block you really don't want a PC (in April the P4 was @ 2.4hz, currently it's at 3.06ghz). And value? Look at how much a used Mac sells for vs a used PC. You wouldn't get squat for an 8 month old PC, but I'm pretty sure I could get a good chunk of change for my dual gig QS.


Lethal

[jelloshotsrule]

not sure if anyone else noticed this:

Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
$1,299.00
The 20-inch (diagonal) Apple Cinema Display shows two full pages of text, with room left over for menus and palettes. With a resolution of 1680 by 1050 pixels, the Apple Cinema Display is ideal for the demanding professional user. Requires Mac OS X v10.2.


i don't think it's a huge deal that it requires 10.2 just curious if that makes sense? i mean, i guess they can basically do what they want, but i thought these displays worked with pcs too (with the adapter)... or am i wrong?

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
If you bought a dual 1GHz for $1600, you got an arguably better deal than what's available now. Going by education prices, the dual 1.25 runs $1900.

If I want 333 DDR RAM, I now have to spend $1900.

You got a good deal on a good Mac. The only thing missing from yours is the Airport Extreme (how many of us actually need 54Mbps over 11, eh?) and FireWire 800 (again, 400 is enough for most of us).

Be happy!

You don't think all the people that are buying a G4 dual 1.42 are going to be depressed when the IBM G5 hits the market?

Think of it this way -- you can get a new 3+GHz dual G5 machine in two years, and 250 or 420MHz is going to mean jack squat. You have a machine that is faster than it needs to be 95% of the time.
***
I have to say though, that the LCD displays just keep getting to be better and better every six months. I can get a 23" HD for $1899, and yesterday would have spent $3500.

When I bought my Dual/GHz/DDR PowerMac in August the educational discount came to around $2,400. So yes the new macs are a huge price drop. The Dual867s were around $1,600 after discount.

[reyesmac]

The low end single processor powermac has one processor on a 133mhz bus. I hope the iMac will at least get the 133mhz bus when it is updated. That means that this powermac will be no faster than the iMac that will come out this year. So for about $200 more than the price of a high end iMac, you can have a 17in Mac with PCI slots. Not bad if you only wanted iMac speed.

How fast is a $1,499(the price of a 233mhz powermac from 5-6 YEARS ago compare to a PC that costs $1,499 without monitor? How is one chip supposed to even compete? This machine is better for people who just want to upgrade their G3 powermacs with lots of PCI cards.

Last time Apple brought the price down on Powermacs like this it came out with G4's and raised the price of them up again.

[MacKid]

Originally posted by iSmell
Sweet. Compared to the 23" lcd, I think that's a pretty good price for the 20". I'm disappointed that they haven't changed the enclosure though. If you think about it, It would be kind of silly to overhaul the complete design for one new size.:D

[zoetropeuk]

Is it just me or do those drive doors look more like anodised aluminium than the tacky mirrored look my 867 has ???

ADD: Aluminium Drive Doors ???

[iShater]

Originally posted by reyesmac
The low end single processor powermac has one processor on a 133mhz bus. I hope the iMac will at least get the 133mhz bus when it is updated. That means that this powermac will be no faster than the iMac that will come out this year. So for about $200 more than the price of a high end iMac, you can have a 17in Mac with PCI slots. Not bad if you only wanted iMac speed.

Last time Apple brought the price down on Powermacs like this it came out with G4's and raised the price of them up again.

I have to admit I was shocked and pleasantly surprised at the updates. Then as I always do, I went to check out the low-end model, since it is more "affordable" and for me as a potential switcher can be a good transition without sacrificing power or expandability. I saw the price and I want "woooooooohoooooooo!!!!!!!" :D then I saw that it was a single CPU and I went "what the &^%$???!!" :mad: :eek: :confused:

I mean, I understand that the other two modules might compete better now with their lower prices and better specs (even though it seems the new Dual 1.25 is NOT as powerful as the old model). However, the entry level PM is a horrible choice! I mean, it is cool and all that now I can get a SuperDrive at the entry level, but a single 1Ghz CPU?!?!? Hello?!?!? Who is this machine competing with and on what level? :mad:

[MacKid]

Originally posted by littlerich
I like to keep a track of the way that apple moves and I think its great that they do all this upgrading but when I get a new machine I might aswell get a pc. I have just bought a dual 1ghz and am pretty pissed off at the fact if I had waited until now then I could have got a dual 1.25 for the same price.. Or if I didn't get the dual 1.25 now just wait till August to get a dual 1.42 for the same price.. This never used to be like apple... If you buy an apple it usually keeps its value but the way thing are going it seems that apple may and possibly will lose alot of sales to pc's unless they make their prices as cheap as them and as cheap to upgrade. Anyone agree?

I think I remember someone saying this on an earlier post long ago . . . ."Apple is a dirty whore that will take your money, break your heart, and leave you coming back for more". Something along those lines.

[JBracy]

Originally posted by hobie


Ever noticed how much VAT Tony charges???!? 17.5% is ridiculous, compared to what, 16% in Germany, 13 or so in Holland, and 12% in the US (I might be wrong though on the US part, I'm from the UK).

So don't blame it on Apple, it's what Governments call "Domestic Market Protection". Import taxes, VAT, Export taxes... take any tax you want.

BTW, ever compared UK beer prices to beer prices in Germany?? (Don't forget to call the ambulance first!) :D

Actually the US does not charge VAT each state charges their own sales tax. In Virginia it is 4.5%. When I went to buy my new dual 867 in September, I got a 20% discount because I have a friend at Apple. I still paid more than if I'd had my Dad in Virginia buy it for me! I actually considered taking some vacation time, flying to Virginia, buying the machine there and bringing it back with me! From the money I would have saved I could have bought the plane ticket! However, they would have stuck me with a VAT bill when I came into the UK. I could have gotten away with a PowerBook, but not a PowerMac.

So basically it's not Apple's fault that UK prices are higher. It's the government's!

[MacKid]

Originally posted by iJon

yeah there is, look at the low end one. apple always does this. the move each computer down the row and introduce a new high end. now i get a new dual 1.25, apple 20 inch, and a 12 inch powermac. now im set boys.

iJon

Although that is Apple's strategy, according to the site, it is not a DP 1GHz, it's single processor.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by iAlan
But I am wondering, all those posters who are saying "YEAH!!", will they buy anything? It seems that half the posters here are always waiting for the next best thing and are all happy when it arrives, then a month later start complaining things aren't to their liking, and want yet another next best thing.

Heck, I'm just waiting for my beige G3 to die. It does what it does just fine... and probably will for years unless something spills on it, or static zaps the motherboard, or a cinderblock falls on it, or it slips out the window, etc....:D

[cr2sh]

Your links were all timed out... :D


Summary
• Power Mac G4 Dual 1.42GHz w/2MB L3 per proc.
• 2.0GB DDR333 SDRAM (PC2700) - 4 DIMMs
• 4x180GB Ultra ATA drive
• Optical 1 - Apple SuperDrive
• Optical 2 - Combo Drive (DVD/CD-RW)
• NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium w/128MB DDR
• Apple Cinema HD Display (23" flat panel)
• Apple Cinema HD Display (23" flat panel) + Apple DVI to ADC Adapter
• AirPort Extreme Card
• Ultra SCSI PCI card & cable adapter
• 56K internal modem
• Bluetooth Module
• Apple Pro Keyboard - U.S. English
• Mac OS - U.S. English
• iPod - 20GB (Mac)
• Apple Pro Speakers
• AirPort Extreme Base Station (with modem and antenna port)
• .Mac Promotional Bundle
• APP for Power Mac (w/ or w/o display) - Enrollment Kit

Subtotal $10,669.95

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by JBracy
Actually the US does not charge VAT each state charges their own sales tax. In Virginia it is 4.5%. When I went to buy my new dual 867 in September, I got a 20% discount because I have a friend at Apple. I still paid more than if I'd had my Dad in Virginia buy it for me! I actually considered taking some vacation time, flying to Virginia, buying the machine there and bringing it back with me! From the money I would have saved I could have bought the plane ticket! However, they would have stuck me with a VAT bill when I came into the UK. I could have gotten away with a PowerBook, but not a PowerMac.

So basically it's not Apple's fault that UK prices are higher. It's the government's!

question for you europeans/non americans. you see the price listed as say... 1500 pounds (or whatever) on apple's site... so, do you then have to pay the VAT on top of that? or is that included? if it's included, then it's not as big a discrepancy, especially because in the US we pay the state tax on top of the price, though it's not as high as your VAT, it's a little bit extra... but if yo upay the VAT on top of the price, then yeah, that's a raw deal.

[jettredmont]

We all know, of course, that the 1.42GHz chips are just 1GHz chips overclocked by Apple since Motorola doesn't make such chips, right?

( :) for those who can't glean sarcasm without smilies )

[jayscheuerle]

Apple had these machines ready for MacWorld but they knew a lot of people were holding out for new machines to be released then. When they weren't, many of these people ordered what was available.

I guessed they cleared a bit of stock in the past 3 weeks. Good for them. Smart move...

Any fish out there?;)

[D*I*S_Frontman]

I think this all makes sense, if we look at things from Apple's perspective.

They are hamstrung by Motorola's inability to keep up with Intel and Athlon. The G4 was a crusher when it first came out but is now comparatively weak in the real world, where not every single computation is AltiVec enabled or MP aware.

That being said, they are a company of fierce innovation, excellent design, dependability, and user-friendliness. What can they do while they wait for Motorola to finish the next generation of PPCs or for IBM to give them the 970?

Innovate everything else. Refine the OS. Make the iApps increasingly better. Make premium programs like FCP more affordable (FCExpress). Bring down the cost of displays and refine the options. Add Bluetooth and Airport Extreme. Design killer portables.

This is the song and dance Apple will have to do until the 970's or G5's actually become available. While it sucks now, once they are available the other "in-the-meantime" innovations coupled with the new CPU processing power will substantially improve the Apple user experience and productivity.

And what are consumers to do? I say, buy the software, buy the portables, buy the displays, in short, buy what they are actually innovating--but DO NOT buy a tower. Keep your old clunker running with Jag and the new 20" screen attached to it. When the real deal comes later, connect your old 20" to your new 970 PM. Heck, you may even be able to cluster your old clunker to it via Gigabit and get even more done.

[MorganX]

Can someone please explain Apple's business model to me? As someone not interested in a PowerMac (I can trick out a Wintel box that blows it away for much less), why Apple feels they need to:

1) Lock their configurations
2) Keep performance speparation between the PowerMac Line and the iMac line?

Why doesn't Apple allow you to buy as much CPU as will fit in the iMac and all lines. Many home PCs are much more powerful that PC workstations. You order what you want. If I want a maxed out iMac, that doesn't mean if you cripple it, that I will then buy a PowerMac that I don't want.

I just don't get it.

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by 3777
Formac will have to cut the price on their monitor nowLet's hear it for competition! The Apple price drops are great, and companies like Formac keep the pressure on to make it happen.

[MacKid]

Originally posted by MorganX
Can someone please explain Apple's business model to me? As someone not interested in a PowerMac (I can trick out a Wintel box that blows it away for much less), why Apple feels they need to:

1) Lock their configurations
2) Keep performance speparation between the PowerMac Line and the iMac line?

Why doesn't Apple allow you to buy as much CPU as will fit in the iMac and all lines. Many home PCs are much more powerful that PC workstations. You order what you want. If I want a maxed out iMac, that doesn't mean if you cripple it, that I will then buy a PowerMac that I don't want.

I just don't get it.

It's for the sales. If the eMac had an LCD and better graphics card, what's to stop you from getting that instead of an iMac?

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Apple had these machines ready for MacWorld but they knew a lot of people were holding out for new machines to be released then. When they weren't, many of these people ordered what was available.

I guessed they cleared a bit of stock in the past 3 weeks. Good for them. Smart move...

Any fish out there?;)

The same amount of stock which would have been new PM sales....
But I suppose Apple will make more money out of selling the old ones

[MacsRgr8]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


question for you europeans/non americans. you see the price listed as say... 1500 pounds (or whatever) on apple's site... so, do you then have to pay the VAT on top of that? or is that included? if it's included, then it's not as big a discrepancy, especially because in the US we pay the state tax on top of the price, though it's not as high as your VAT, it's a little bit extra... but if yo upay the VAT on top of the price, then yeah, that's a raw deal.

The Dutch Apple Store (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/nlstore/) INCLUDES 19% (yep, really...:mad: ) VAT

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule


question for you europeans/non americans. you see the price listed as say... 1500 pounds (or whatever) on apple's site... so, do you then have to pay the VAT on top of that? or is that included? if it's included, then it's not as big a discrepancy, especially because in the US we pay the state tax on top of the price, though it's not as high as your VAT, it's a little bit extra... but if yo upay the VAT on top of the price, then yeah, that's a raw deal.

In California, sales tax is upwards of 8% in some counties. Our wonderful governor announced he is increasing it another 1% to offset his budget and energy mismanagement.

Get a clue governors: zero based budgets and surpluses during good times so you have a buffer in bad times. Do not have a party with extras when there is one good year!

Rocketman

Stating the obvious (unless you are in the government)

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by MacsRgr8


The same amount of stock which would have been new PM sales....
But I suppose Apple will make more money out of selling the old ones

I think you misunderstood. These machines weren't moving (sitting in warehouses). Everyone has been waiting for upgrades instead of buying (Who buys right before MacWorlds?). Apple put on a good show and released some new products. Tower buyers decided that the waters were safe for a little while yet and bit the hooks for full price instead of as a discontinued model at a reseller (except for the single legacy model for OS9 boots).

I'd like to see how many towers were moved in the 3 weeks preceding MacWorld (including Xmas and end-of-the-year-for-tax-reasons purchases) versus the 3 weeks following...

At least that's what I think! :)

[yosoyjay]

Originally posted by jettredmont
We all know, of course, that the 1.42GHz chips are just 1GHz chips overclocked by Apple since Motorola doesn't make such chips, right?


I'm assuming that you are correct. This is some heavy-duty overclocking, I wonder what percentage of the chips are capable of this? This would inherently make supply limited...

There are quotes floating about indicating that the new machines are much quieter than the older PowerMacs. That makes me wonder what kind of cooling system they are using. Water cooled?

[MorganX]

Originally posted by MacKid


It's for the sales. If the eMac had an LCD and better graphics card, what's to stop you from getting that instead of an iMac?

I still don't get it. Then sell a ton of Emacs and stop making the iMac. Sales are sales. If you can sell 10 emacs, 10 iMacs, and 10 PowerMacs fixed.

or

1000 iMacs with 1GHz processors and only 5 PowerMacs and 0 eMacs, why wouldn't you do that?

Is it for margin? If it is, at what point does the volume on iMacs overtake the margin on lower PowerMac sales?

As primarily a PC user, if I want a workstation, I'll get a PC with more power for less. If I'm using it as a workstation my UI will be the application.

If I want an integrated Digital Lifestyle hub, I want an iMac. Because it's not upgradeable I need at least 1GHz CPU. That should last a couple years. But, I am not going to buy a PowerMac instead. I'm just not going to buy an iMac.

[msxgames]

Quickly about US/EUR pricing. Taking into account 20,6% VAT (Belgium) we still pay in Europe between 8% and 12% more than our US counterparts depending on the Powermac.
It's better than before, but with the Euro rising the gap will become larger again.

And yes, the price on the European Apple Stores is exactly what you pay (no extra taxes) like any other goods you can buy in Europe. You will always pay the price that's on the price tag (something I really dislike in the US, even in grocery stores!). And you are not obliged to give them an extra tip!

[e-coli]

Originally posted by iJon
no bluetooth either, not that i really care but i thought they would throw it on the mobo, oh well 50 for a module isnt that bad but it takes up from the very few usb ports we had in the first place.

iJon

few??? I count 6 on mine, display included.

seems like a lot to me.

Apple taking the duals out of the bottom of the line is just plain lame. Why on earth would you buy one now? Just get an iMac, it's a much better deal. Their towers are so far behind, they need the duals to compete. i don't get it.

[Hemingray]

Hoo yeah, baby! :D

[Gus]

Originally posted by Rocketman


Alot of these machines are sold to customers of VAR's with software that is OS9.

Rocketman

Steve promised CRT's were dead. Hence the eMac.

Steve promised OS9 was dead. Hence this machine.

That was y point. Is it just me or is this the first set of systems for OS X only? I would think that this would be a significant thing. It's a major turning point that finally has come true. Nobody seems to care though, so I will drop it.

Regards,
Gus

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by paulie
[1GHz PowerMac vs expected 1GHz iMac at current top-of-line price]

What's the benefit to me of paying almost 70,000 yen more for the same machine specs? Is there really going to be that much of a performance difference just from the DDR (or fake DDR) RAM, the 133mhz bus and the 1MB L3 cache?


If you deride the PowerMac DDR as "fake" it is logically inconsistent to not see that a 133MHz bus is a significant advantage. The reason DDR memory in the PowerMac line doesn't double memory performance is because the bottleneck is at the FSB. A 133MHz FSb instead of 100MHz is a significant improvement (33% improvement if you do the hard math :) ).

However, your 70k yen also buys you the "pro" form factor (upgradability, expandability, componentized) instead of the "consumer" form factor (sleek, elegant, but not overly upgradable or internally expandable and not easy to replace the monitor with a new one).

As for the "new features" (FW800, BlueTooth, Airport Extreme, etc), I would suspect that any upcoming iMac lineup will include some if not all of these features (maybe not FW800, but BT and 802.11g are significant consumer technologies that would be a quite glaring ommission in an iMac bump).

Personally, I'm itching to put in a purchase order for a 2x1.42 machine ... but I still might wait ... :) ... I'm now at double the clock rate of my current machine (a single 733MHz G4), so rationalizing a bump up is getting easier and more tempting ... I just don't want to be last on the list for the 970's when they come out ...

Personally, I believe that we'll see one more 32-bit PPC lineup of PowerMacs in 6 months (maybe to the rumored 1.8GHz, definitely with an improved FSB, perhaps multiply-pumped), and won't see a non-server implementation of the 970 until this time next year. Even then, I don't see the 32-bit Pro machines dying out completely, but rather being offered in parallel with one or two 64-bit 970-based machines at the top end, for as much as a year afterwards. So don't weep for the "G4" just yet ...

[reyesmac]

Originally posted by MorganX


I still don't get it. Then sell a ton of Emacs and stop making the iMac. Sales are sales. If you can sell 10 emacs, 10 iMacs, and 10 PowerMacs fixed.

or

1000 iMacs with 1GHz processors and only 5 PowerMacs and 0 eMacs, why wouldn't you do that?

Is it for margin? If it is, at what point does the volume on iMacs overtake the margin on lower PowerMac sales?

As primarily a PC user, if I want a workstation, I'll get a PC with more power for less. If I'm using it as a workstation my UI will be the application.

If I want an integrated Digital Lifestyle hub, I want an iMac. Because it's not upgradeable I need at least 1GHz CPU. That should last a couple years. But, I am not going to buy a PowerMac instead. I'm just not going to buy an iMac.


In your PC world, you have the choice to not get a machine if it is not up to your specs. When dealing with the Windows OS, there is no brand loyalty or hardware loyalty. You would say its dumb to stay with one company just because you like their style or how much work they put into a piece of plastic. For you a PC is an object that you replace every few years and pay money to upgrade every few months. The Mac is very different from that. When someone who is a Mac user buys a mac, they keep that machine as long as possible because it does what they need it to do for a much longer time.
If you dont plan on buying every 3D game out there or upgrading your copy of Maya or Photoshop all the time, it will do everything you need it to do for a very long time.
Look at the resale value of an old Mac, its high because it is still a usefull machine. Apple only has itself to compete with and it will cripple its machines to get you to buy the better but more expensive models. They must be doing something right if they have been selling expensive computers for over 20 years.

If your the kind of person that has to buy a new computer every other year then you are simply buying cheap computers. Spend at least $1,500 on the tower alone and maybe it will last you longer too. You can't compare cheap sub $1,000 dollar PC's to Powermacs. You can compare them to $1,000 eMacs, if you want to buy a fast computer every other year, get an eMac, if you buy all your peripherals as external devices, you can take them with you when you dump the machine.

[barkmonster]

question for you europeans/non americans. you see the price listed as say... 1500 pounds (or whatever) on apple's site... so, do you then have to pay the VAT on top of that? or is that included? if it's included, then it's not as big a discrepancy, especially because in the US we pay the state tax on top of the price, though it's not as high as your VAT, it's a little bit extra... but if yo upay the VAT on top of the price, then yeah, that's a raw deal.

All the prices on the UK apple store include V.A.T. If it was a government imposed charge ontop of the price it would be an equal amount extra ontop of the US price like the 17.5% V.A.T. we pay only banded in someway like income tax.

It's not quite as linear as that, the entry level 1Ghz Powermac is £1,049 which works out as £829.76 before V.A.T. is added, that's $1,596.77 or around 6.5% over the retail price. The 23" LCD display on the otherhand is £1,999 which works out as $2,361.10 or 18.1% over the retail price.

It's just apple overcharging. I think in a way it's for marketing reasons. A price structure of £549, £1,099 and £1,699 on the LCD monitors look a lot more varied than the £575, £935 and £1,450 prices they should be. I could add a BTO superdrive for the price difference between the US and UK 20" LCDs.

[JBracy]

Originally posted by Gus


That was y point. Is it just me or is this the first set of systems for OS X only? I would think that this would be a significant thing. It's a major turning point that finally has come true. Nobody seems to care though, so I will drop it.

Regards,
Gus

The web site also has no mention of OS9 being installed even for use as Classic! Not that it matters much anymore I haven't launched classic in 3 months, but it's still a shock that there is no way to run old software on these new Macs.

[ewinemiller]

Originally posted by yosoyjay


There are quotes floating about indicating that the new machines are much quieter than the older PowerMacs. That makes me wonder what kind of cooling system they are using. Water cooled?

You don't need water cooling to make quiet, just a little forethought in case design and fan selection. Just bought a dell 8250 a month or so ago, the damn thing is silent. I can't hear the fan, the harddrive, nothing. Makes me want to put my dual 800 quicksilver in another room and use really long cables.

[Wano]

I don't get why apple didn't put in dual 1ghz processors instead of just one. Yeah, ok, it's only $1499, but why not dual, or at least dual 933mhz. They also dropped the superdrive in the dual 1.25Ghz.

[Dunepilot]

I'm one of those people who bought a powermac right before Christmas, but I'm not too upset really - I knew this was coming, I wanted an OS-9 bootable machine, and I wanted dual processor. I also chose the radeon 9000 as a BTO

If the PM line had moved to dual 1GHz, I would have been upset, but 1GHz I can handle.

At the end of the day, I'm really happy with my (relatively) new machine, and not too jealous of the exciting new products. If I'd waited, I would have been forced into buying the OS9 non-bootable dual 1.25 for about £150 extra or pay over the odds for OS 9 booting. I'm happy I bought when i did.

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by MorganX
"I can trick out a Wintel box that blows it away for much less."

No, you can't.

If raw computational speed is your only concern, you'll never own a consumer machine-- especially a Mac. Macs have a vastly superior user experience with their OS and hardware combination. There is no alternative in the Windows world because of it's very nature. While it may be true that you can get an extra 20 - 50 fps for games or an extra 10 seconds off a Photoshop filter on a top of the line PC box, you have to use Windows. LOL. C'mon. Who wants to use Windows?

[appeLappe]

Hi there! This is my first post! :)

I’ve noticed that you can choose to update the GPU to either the Geoforce4 Ti or the ATI 9700 Pro for the same price.

Anyone has any thoughts on which to choose?

[Tiauguinho]

I wish that Apple would creat a new app that would kick in the ass all the guys that give a negative rating to this thread... You guys never have enough...

[gopher]

Originally posted by JBracy


The web site also has no mention of OS9 being installed even for use as Classic! Not that it matters much anymore I haven't launched classic in 3 months, but it's still a shock that there is no way to run old software on these new Macs.

Apple is still selling the 1.25 Ghz dual processor with Mac OS 9.

Go to http://www.apple.com/store -> Click on PowerMac, look on the far right hand side of the page for Mac OS 9 booting.

[yosoyjay]

Originally posted by ewinemiller


You don't need water cooling to make quiet, just a little forethought in case design and fan selection. Just bought a dell 8250 a month or so ago, the damn thing is silent. I can't hear the fan, the harddrive, nothing. Makes me want to put my dual 800 quicksilver in another room and use really long cables.

Ahh... How correct you might possibly be. My PC desktop is almost as quiet as my iBook.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by reyesmac
<i>::Useless anectdotal BS snipped for brevity::</I> You would say its dumb to stay with one company just because you like their style or how much work they put into a piece of plastic.

Unless you own Apple stock, yes I would say its dumb.

For you a PC is an object that you replace every few years and pay money to upgrade every few months.

I take it you're asking me, unless you believe yourself to be a savant. If you are asking me, I'll answer you, you are incorrect. I personally upgrade every 6 to 12 months. Becasue I can do so cheaply. And I can guarantee you if current iMac owners could upgrade their CPU by popping it in and out of a ZIF socket for about $200 they would.

If I buy an 800Mhz iMac with a Geforce 4MX, I will want to upgrade it in 3-6 months. Guaranteed. And I won't be able to, so I'm not buying it no matter how much I like it. And most Mac users are not into charity either and I've seen enough post here ackowleging the platforms performance problems. I could care less about Mac loyalist posturing.

FYI, most people over 30 in IT began their careers on Apple IIs. I've owned Apple IIs, Laser 128s (first successful clone) and two PowerMacs. So save the trash for someone else. If you don't have a meaningful answer to my query just move on past my post(s). Thank you.

The Mac is very different from that. When someone who is a Mac user buys a mac, they keep that machine as long as possible because it does what they need it to do for a much longer time.

Read: they have no choice.

If you dont plan on buying every 3D game out there or upgrading your copy of Maya or Photoshop all the time, it will do everything you need it to do for a very long time.

I'm happy that you can encode video, MP3's, and burn CDs and DVDs as fast and you will ever need to.

They must be doing something right if they have been selling expensive computers for over 20 years.

Likewise they must be doing somethign wrong if they can only meed the demands of 5% of the potential market. If they don't want more sales. That's their business. They won't sell to a buyer like me. If they're satisfied with that, I have no problem at all. I'll simply buy from someone who can meet my demand and we'll all be happy. I'll have what I want, and Apple will have what it wants.

You can't compare cheap sub $1,000 dollar PC's to Powermacs

Would you like to compare? I'm not iterested but it might give you some insight into how a potential customer like me thinks. Let's do our comparison. What PowerMac would you suggest for $2000. I'll then tell you what PC I will buy for $2000. This excludes a monitor.

[pimentoLoaf]

Originally posted by MacsRgr8

The Dutch Apple Store (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/nlstore/) INCLUDES 19% (yep, really...:mad: ) VAT

VAT: VAcuum Tax.

:)

[Hemingray]

Originally posted by hibitdatman
GOOD. So does that mean that, having admitted there was a problem, we are all going to get our noisy MDD's fixed for free? It should....

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The loudness was merely a complaint. Nowhere did they admit it was an actual problem or design flaw. It was part of the original design. They listened to the feedback (and the noise), and now they've modified the new PowerMacs accordingly. They owe MDD owners nothing.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by SteveG4Cube
"You must not follow macrumors to close otherwise you would have waited for the regular product cycles! this happened to me too, once with my 333 imac and then they went to an all new 350 and to my wifes 500 where a month later they came out with the emac!"

The 500mhz iMac came out in mid 2000, the eMac was what, '02? How is that a month? You must have gotten the last one on the shelf! I try to get my machine on the end of the bell curve that way you get the most for your money ! Just look at everyone who bought a 1.25 dual say this past month! I can remember when i got my 733 if i had bought it just a week sooner i would have paid about $1500 more for it! sure i didnt get the l3 but who cares! anyways the 1 gig machine is a great price but i wonder now about the imacs maybe 867 and a 1 giger on a 133 bus?

[Abstract]

If you deride the PowerMac DDR as "fake" it is logically inconsistent to not see that a 133MHz bus is a significant advantage. The reason DDR memory in the PowerMac line doesn't double memory performance is because the bottleneck is at the FSB. A 133MHz FSb instead of 100MHz is a significant improvement (33% improvement if you do the hard math :)


I would think that the performance of an updated iMac (say upgraded to 1Ghz in a few weeks) will not be 33% worse than a 1Ghz PowerMac. If you spend the same amount of money for an iMac and PowerMac, the performance improvement that you would get by purchasing a PowerMac isn't significant enough to buy a PowerMac instead of an iMac. The iMac comes with such a nice monitor, while the 1Ghz PowerMac......well, lets not go there.

The only way Apple can differentiate the iMac's performance is to keep the iMac at 100Mhz FSB, which sucks because we all know they're crippling the iMac. You don't see the PC world cripple their own machines because the technology isn't there for them to make a wider range of computers with varying processor speeds. I understand where the poster from a previous reply is coming from. I own a PC Athlon 650Mhz and its blazing fast (believe it or not), and it has never had a problem in the 2 years I've owned it. And if I ever need to upgrade it, its fairly easy, and I'm sure I won't have any problems after an upgrade either, since I've never had a problem with any of the PC's I've ever owned. It rarely acts up, and I've never had the "crashes" that people in this forum seem to point to in justifying purchasing their Macs.

EDIT TO ADD: And if MorganX wanted to NOT use window, and use a UNIX based operating system, he can simply use Linux and ditch Windows.

However, the usability and feel of the two computers is different. Its like buying a $1500 Taylor acoustic guitar instead of a $200 Yamaha acoustic (the one I own :)). Everybody thinks my acoustic sounds amazing for what I payed for it, and good when compared to some acoustic guitars that cost 3x more than mine, but once you pick up a Taylor.......well, its quite easy to tell the difference. Its not a HUGE difference in sound (definitely not 8x better, like the price would suggest), but if you're knowledgeable enough about guitars to tell the difference, then you may be willing to pay 8x more for the Taylor instead of the Yamaha, even if its not 8x better than the Yamaha. ;)

I still can't understand the purpose of the 1Ghz G4 PowerMac when they could have simply kept the Dual 867Mhz PowerMacs as their low end computer. They could have priced the dual 867 at the same price the single 1Ghz is at now!!! :mad: And even if they couldn't, I'm sure the extra $150-$200 dollar difference between having a dual 867 and a single 1Ghz would have been worth it. :mad:

I’ve noticed that you can choose to update the GPU to either the Geoforce4 Ti or the ATI 9700 Pro for the same price.

Supposedly, its the ATI 9700. That's what people have told me, so I'm not 100% sure. I'm sure you wouldn't be able to tell much of a difference unless you were gaming like mad. ;)

[pimentoLoaf]

Priced out my system:

$2699 system + nvidia geoforce4 w/128mb + bluetooth + 20" lcd + appleCare

Total $4847 w/o tax.

Add 5.5% tax for Milwaukee, WI. (No VAT)

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Frobozz


No, you can't.

If raw computational speed is your only concern, you'll never own a consumer machine-- especially a Mac. Macs have a vastly superior user experience with their OS and hardware combination. There is no alternative in the Windows world because of it's very nature. While it may be true that you can get an extra 20 - 50 fps for games or an extra 10 seconds off a Photoshop filter on a top of the line PC box, you have to use Windows. LOL. C'mon. Who wants to use Windows?


If you're buying a workstation, your user experience will be the applicaiton's UI which is identical in most instances between platforms. That leaves only price/peformance ratio.

Windows isn't that bad. OS X is better, and much more Windows-like than previous versions. That is why it is more appealing to Windows users. However, Apple hasn't reached the sweet spot for most PC users when it comes to price/performance. The user experience is desireable, but only worth so much. How much? For me, the current 17" iMac with 64MB MX video, 512MB RAM, and a 1GHz processor, AE, BT at the current price. I would like a faster superdrive or the option of purchasing this model with only a CDRW.

I don't know why some Mac users (I consider myself one) feel the need to convince user they don't want what they want, or need what they say, simply because Apple chooses not to make it available.

[MacKenzie999]

Hi folks...

I have a seemingly Jurassic G4/466 powermac and feel no need to upgrade just yet, but the 20" monitor has my credit card quaking in fear. I've never had an lcd monitor before, does it plug right in to a 466 or do I need some sort of adapter?

Thanks
-Mike

[iShater]

Originally posted by Abstract


I still can't understand the purpose of the 1Ghz G4 PowerMac when they could have simply kept the Dual 867Mhz PowerMacs as their low end computer. They could have priced the dual 867 at the same price the single 1Ghz is at now!!! :mad: And even if they couldn't, I'm sure the extra $150-$200 dollar difference between having a dual 867 and a single 1Ghz would have been worth it. :mad:



Neither can I! I can see how a dual machine as an entry level (like the preious 867s) would be a fierce competitor in usability performance, but this machine is WORSE not better than the last entry level! :rolleyes:

[Le Big Mac]

Originally posted by Abstract


. . . . I still can't understand the purpose of the 1Ghz G4 PowerMac when they could have simply kept the Dual 867Mhz PowerMacs as their low end computer. They could have priced the dual 867 at the same price the single 1Ghz is at now!!! :mad: And even if they couldn't, I'm sure the extra $150-$200 dollar difference between having a dual 867 and a single 1Ghz would have been worth it. :mad:

. . .



I'm missing this too. Why not add bluetooth support and FW800 into the "old" Dual 867? Keep the price the same or drop it $100. For $200 less, one gets one less processor, and FW800. Not very impressive.:mad:

[JBracy]

Originally posted by gopher


Apple is still selling the 1.25 Ghz dual processor with Mac OS 9.

Go to http://www.apple.com/store -> Click on PowerMac, look on the far right hand side of the page for Mac OS 9 booting.

I ment the new Macsdon't seem to have OS9 included even for use in classic - I don't care about 9 booting.

Anyway, I downloaded the spec sheet and it says in the Software section:

"Mac OS X with Classic environment"

So I was wrong.

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by Chaszmyr
I just ordered myself a 20'' cinema... I just wish i could trade in my current 22'' cinema for a second 20'' so i would have matching displays.

the horror!

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by Wano
I don't get why apple didn't put in dual 1ghz processors instead of just one. Yeah, ok, it's only $1499, but why not dual, or at least dual 933mhz. They also dropped the superdrive in the dual 1.25Ghz. concerning the 1 gig cpu's it looks like that is the chip that will be showing up everywhere across there line. So this may have something to do with how many they can get from motorola and dont forget this chip should show itself in the next imac. Superdrive cost more so thats another reason they could lower 1.25 price.

[Nebrie]

If you think Apple can serve the pc customization market that overclocks and watercools AND maintain quality, you must really be high. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by MorganX
Can someone please explain Apple's business model to me? As someone not interested in a PowerMac (I can trick out a Wintel box that blows it away for much less), why Apple feels they need to:

1) Lock their configurations
2) Keep performance speparation between the PowerMac Line and the iMac line?

Why doesn't Apple allow you to buy as much CPU as will fit in the iMac and all lines. Many home PCs are much more powerful that PC workstations. You order what you want. If I want a maxed out iMac, that doesn't mean if you cripple it, that I will then buy a PowerMac that I don't want.

I just don't get it.

You can't mix and match a Mac like you can a PC from Dell (for example) because Apple doesn't have warehouses full of generic, standard from cases and monitors like Dell does. You can't buy a completely custimized iMac for the same reason you can't buy a copmpletely custimized laptop. They both have propriatary case designs that must take into account size and shape of components aswell as the heat produced.


Lethal

[Dont Hurt Me]

One more comment for all you i love my pc guys out there! first what are you doing looking at a( gee we only have 5 % of the market MAC site? ) and second take any pc out of its box and sit it next to a MAC and you will know right away why macs hold their value better! Come on and get with it! you know you have Mac envy! Just admit it:) ------Now dont you feel better!:D

[Rocketman]

Is 18.7 Gigaflops alot?

:)

How could it be expressed properly to a Wintel geek?

Rocketman

[Rocket Rion]

I've been waiting for months for this price decrease, and it was a much greater reduction than I could have hoped for. I ordered the 23 immediately. Woo hoo!

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Nebrie
If you think Apple can serve the pc customization market that overclocks and watercools AND maintain quality, you must really be high. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Overclocking and modding is a niche. People do it as a hobby. Believe it or not most people who mod PC cases and watercool their systems think that stuff is much cooler than an iMac or iPod. I personally think it's a waste of money in a niche market, but the demand is there. Too each his own.

Because this market is doing so well, the PC form factor is not progressing. I do not want to cut a Dragon in my PC with a neon light, I want an iMac.

Now I could go for a platinum dragon on the front of an iMac where the Apple logo is... :D

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Abstract
You don't see the PC world cripple their own machines because the technology isn't there for them to make a wider range of computers with varying processor speeds.


I can't speak for current chips, but Intel's P3 600 was exactly the same as their p3 800. The only difference was 100mhzFSB vs 133mhzFSB. And with how well the 2.4ghz P4's (I think that's right) OC I wouldn't be surprised if Intel was still giving the same chip 2 or 3 different "speeds" and selling them a different price points.


Lethal

[eric_n_dfw]

In answer to MorganX:

Mac OS X

(and Final Cut Pro :))

'twas enough for me.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
You can't buy a completely custimized iMac for the same reason you can't buy a copmpletely custimized laptop. They both have propriatary case designs that must take into account size and shape of components aswell as the heat produced.

I understand that, what I don't understand is Apple's performance tier creation.

Each fixed model should have high, mid, and low ends. I'm OK with that. I don't understand why there is a tier between families. From what I've read here, Apple intentionally cripples the iMac because it doesn't want it to cut into PowerMac sales. I don't understand that.

If a buyer wants as much horsepower as will fit into the iMac, they're not going to buy a PowerMac because Apple simply won't use a faster processor in the iMac. Obviously, if both machines had a 1GHz processor and 133Mhz FSB, I'm still going to buy an iMac if I want that form factor. If I want a tower with its expandability and monitor flexibility, I'm going to buy that.

I simply want to understand Apple's thinking here.

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by MorganX
Can someone please explain Apple's business model to me? As someone not interested in a PowerMac (I can trick out a Wintel box that blows it away for much less), why Apple feels they need to:

1) Lock their configurations
2) Keep performance speparation between the PowerMac Line and the iMac line?

Why doesn't Apple allow you to buy as much CPU as will fit in the iMac and all lines. Many home PCs are much more powerful that PC workstations. You order what you want. If I want a maxed out iMac, that doesn't mean if you cripple it, that I will then buy a PowerMac that I don't want.

I just don't get it.
Upon further review - I realized that my prior remark had nothig to do with your question. (Sorry!)

My answer to your real question (quoted here as we seem to have gotten off target) is simple: PROFIT.

Apple maintains huge margins compared to PC makers by doing things this way. It doesn't seem to keep enough people from buying theyre product either.

My prior comment plays into that - I am willing to put up with Apple's hardware inadequicies because I am infatuated with OS X and Final Cut Pro - and I work with a bunch of Unix geeks who agree 100% with me. (2 of which switched from Windows and Linux as their main desktops in the last 12 months)

[MorganX]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I can't speak for current chips, but Intel's P3 600 was exactly the same as their p3 800. The only difference was 100mhzFSB vs 133mhzFSB. And with how well the 2.4ghz P4's (I think that's right) OC I wouldn't be surprised if Intel was still giving the same chip 2 or 3 different "speeds" and selling them a different price points.
Lethal

With the slower FSB I'm sur ethe system used PC100 memory which allows for a lower overall system cost.

I believe all CPUs use the same process for rating them. And all technically can be overclocked. Stability is an issue. I guess we're at the mercy of all CPU manufacturers on that one.

[ddtlm]

Abstract:

You don't see the PC world cripple their own machines because the technology isn't there for them to make a wider range of computers with varying processor speeds.
Preposterous. The Celeron has always been crippled by low L2 and a needlessly low FSB... it stayed 128k 66mhz FSB clear till 766mhz (link: http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1393&p=1). Even today it has 128k L2 and runs on a 400mhz FSB when the 533mhz FSB is readily available and when L2 cache is cheap to Intel.

AMD did the same thing with their Duron, until they discontinued it.

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by MorganX
If a buyer wants as much horsepower as will fit into the iMac, they're not going to buy a PowerMac because Apple simply won't use a faster processor in the iMac. Obviously, if both machines had a 1GHz processor and 133Mhz FSB, I'm still going to buy an iMac if I want that form factor. If I want a tower with its expandability and monitor flexibility, I'm going to buy that.
They'll sell the least amout of iMac for the most amount of money as the market will support. As soon as iMac sales lag, you'll see them get faster. Like other's are saying here, I'd bet you'll see just that happen in the next week or so.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Upon further review - I realized that my prior remark had nothig to do with your question. (Sorry!)

My answer to your real question (quoted here as we seem to have gotten off target) is simple: PROFIT.

Apple maintains huge margins compared to PC makers by doing things this way. It doesn't seem to keep enough people from buying theyre product either.

My prior comment plays into that - I am willing to put up with Apple's hardware inadequicies because I am infatuated with OS X and Final Cut Pro - and I work with a bunch of Unix geeks who agree 100% with me. (2 of which switched from Windows and Linux as their main desktops in the last 12 months)

Thanks. This makes sense to me. For anyone else reading related threads, this answers my question.

[MacKid]

Originally posted by Abstract

I still can't understand the purpose of the 1Ghz G4 PowerMac when they could have simply kept the Dual 867Mhz PowerMacs as their low end computer. They could have priced the dual 867 at the same price the single 1Ghz is at now!!! :mad: And even if they couldn't, I'm sure the extra $150-$200 dollar difference between having a dual 867 and a single 1Ghz would have been worth it. :mad:


I think it's because Apple's product strategy is to only have 3-5 different variations on one product, making it easy to choose which one you want, and keeping it organized.:D

It just came to me. . .the cooling! Maybe it's a whole lot quieter with one processor for people who only need one processor!:)

[bentmywookie]

Originally posted by appeLappe
Hi there! This is my first post! :)

I’ve noticed that you can choose to update the GPU to either the Geoforce4 Ti or the ATI 9700 Pro for the same price.

Anyone has any thoughts on which to choose?

Welcome!

I would recommend the ATI 9700 Pro - it is the current top-of-the-line graphics card as far as I know. (And officially endorsed by Jon Carmack in case you wanted to play Doom III if they release it for Macs).

[MacKid]

Originally posted by MacKenzie999
Hi folks...

I have a seemingly Jurassic G4/466 powermac and feel no need to upgrade just yet, but the 20" monitor has my credit card quaking in fear. I've never had an lcd monitor before, does it plug right in to a 466 or do I need some sort of adapter?

Thanks
-Mike

You'd probably need a new adapter (which they sell at Apple Stores right across from the Genius Bar).

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by MorganX
And I can guarantee you if current iMac owners could upgrade their CPU by popping it in and out of a ZIF socket for about $200 they would.


Okay, hold on a minute. Are you talking about upgrading your CPU? I can tell you that in 12 years of owning PCs I've only attempted to upgrade a CPU once (which was a failure), and have never otherwise seen any benefit in doing so. The one time it failed because I was using an NEC computer whose motherboard overrode the BIOS's ability to use faster processors (100MHz was the hard-coded limit for the motherboard, although the chipset and BIOS both supported up to 166MHz Pentium chips ...) Other than that rather short period of time (MMX was big, and my 100MHz Pentium didn't support it and many programs I needed to run were optimized for MMX), I've always found that when I start wanting to upgrade my CPU it is cheaper and easier to just replace the whole box and relegate the old box/CPU to the basement server pasture.

Back to upgrading a CPU. First, "$200" is not the price of your average CPU upgrade. Unless you bought a behind-the-curve CPU to start with, the motherboard you currently own will generally not accept the latest CPU. You have to also replace the motherboard. Which often (in my experience, at least, from DIMMs to FPO to EDO to SDRAM to DDR to RAMBUS to DDR 2 ...) means replacing memory, which of course isn't as expensive as it used to be but it still doesn't come free. Nowadays you'll also likely have to add in a new fan/cooling system.

Take a new CPU at $200 and a new motherboard at $150 and a new gaggle of memory at $200 and you're quite a bit beyond what Mac users pay when they want to upgrade their CPU (with a daughtercard CPU that works on their existing motherboard). Granted, your $550 gave you the latest motherboard features as well, which is a nice side-effect, but in my experience working with PC upgrades, the $200 CPU upgrade is pure, unadulturated myth.

And don't just take my word for it. Look into it at Tom's Hardware and cNet/ExtremeTech and Ars Technica. It's rare to see someone arguing that a CPU upgrade is financially sound, and then it is with caveats such as "your current MB will accept the latest/greatest" and "you are adding 25%+ of frequency to your CPU".

If I buy an 800Mhz iMac with a Geforce 4MX, I will want to upgrade it in 3-6 months. Guaranteed.

Which is why you shouldn't buy such a machine. It's not aimed at the user that "needs" to have the latest/greatest hardware in their box every 3-6 months. You obviously are happy building your own kit PC. That is your market.

Which, of course, begs the question: why are you here?


They must be doing something right if they have been selling expensive computers for over 20 years.

Likewise they must be doing somethign wrong if they can only meed the demands of 5% of the potential market.


Hmmm. So I guess Dell is doing something horrendously wrong with its 2% of the PC market?

Apple does not need to dominate the PC industry in order to succeed. It is doing quite well currently, reporting ongoing profits quarter after quarter. While new-PC "marketshare" (not in-use marketshare, just based on how many units come off the shelves each quarter) of Apple is stagnant or shrinking depending on whose numbers you latch onto, I don't beleive in the false notion of natural homogeny of the PC marketplace, nor in the notion that PCs must necessarily become pure commodity component kits. I personally appreciate that my Macs just plain work without the effort I put into my Windows and Linux boxes. I personally appreciate that despite the fact that I paid more per SPEC number on my Macs I get far more value per dollar spent, far more work done in the day per dollar spent, and think far less about the nitty gritty of what my computer is doing and why per dollar spent than I've ever have gotten from a PC from Dell or built by myself from top-of-the-line components. And this value is what is making my next several computer purchases be from Apple, not the Intel camp.

In terms of design, there are few who will refute the assertion that Apple holds a near-absolute hegemony over the PC industry, and it has been using that hegemony to put forth its own vision of the future quite successfully over the past several years. While, yes, Apple has made mistakes in the past which led to its fairly low sales marketshare today, I strongly believe that what it is doing today is good for itself as a company and good for its user base overall.


If they don't want more sales. That's their business. They won't sell to a buyer like me.

Correct, they won't be selling to a buyer who, like you, wishes to be able to construct his own frankenputer in his basement lab. That's never been Apple's market. I'm glad you've realized that.

[ShaolinMiddleFinger]

Even though I bought a Dual Gig MDD in December, I'm still happy with it. I praise Apple for what they've done today. Lower Prices, new LCD's and new PowerMacs. Congratulations goes to Apple;)

[ddtlm]

I need speed tests! :eek:

I need noise tests! :eek:

Twitch twitch twitch. Convulse.

[MacKid]

Originally posted by ddtlm
I need speed tests! :eek:

I need noise tests! :eek:

Twitch twitch twitch. Convulse.

1) I think nobody except people at Apple have them yet, ;) and:

2) Apple claims to have fixed that problem.:rolleyes:

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by MorganX

If you're buying a workstation, your user experience will be the applicaiton's UI which is identical in most instances between platforms. That leaves only price/peformance ratio.

Windows isn't that bad.

Again, I can appreciate your difference in opinion.. but I really don't think you understand the Macintosh market.

Workstation UI's are not any different than the desktop UI for Macs. On top of that it sends chills down my spine to think you don't find Windows repulsive in every way. Granted, it's not the steaming pile of c*** that it used to be... but why on earth applaud that? :-) :-)

[trebblekicked]

just a thought-
if the current motochip is stuck at 1ghz, and current 1.42 is a factory overclock job (which could lead to possible reliability issues), maybe the 7457 will make it's debut in XServe and iMac revisions, where ultra-reliability is more important...

also, someone mentioned SCSI earlier--i think FW800 (gigawire) will eventually lead to external RAIDs with seektimes and sustained data transfers equal to internal ATAs and even SCSI. the decision to leave out SCSI support is a deal with external FW800 HD developers (lacie, maxtor, etc) to encourage adoption of external FW based HD arrays, the first of which should be comming soon. (personally, i can't wait:) )

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by MorganX


I understand that, what I don't understand is Apple's performance tier creation.

Each fixed model should have high, mid, and low ends. I'm OK with that. I don't understand why there is a tier between families. From what I've read here, Apple intentionally cripples the iMac because it doesn't want it to cut into PowerMac sales. I don't understand that.

If a buyer wants as much horsepower as will fit into the iMac, they're not going to buy a PowerMac because Apple simply won't use a faster processor in the iMac. Obviously, if both machines had a 1GHz processor and 133Mhz FSB, I'm still going to buy an iMac if I want that form factor. If I want a tower with its expandability and monitor flexibility, I'm going to buy that.

I simply want to understand Apple's thinking here.

I think it all boils down to percetion. If someone coughs up the extra dough for a PM they want an completely superior computer, not just a more expandable<sp?> one. I think Apple thinks people will percieve the PMs to be less if they have the same speed proc as an iMac.

In this case I don't think it's Apple's fault. They are just responding to what their PM buyers dictate. For example, DV gets shafted by many "pros" for being "cheap" even though a quality DV camera and lens system can perform on par w/the industry standard BetaSP format. But because you can buy MiniDV camcorders at Best Buy the whole format gets stimgatized<sp?> Many editors were pissed when FCE was released because they felt it cheapend FCP.:rolleyes: Apple's just trying to keep the egos' of their PM buyers happy.


Lethal

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by MorganX
From what I've read here, Apple intentionally cripples the iMac because it doesn't want it to cut into PowerMac sales. I don't understand that.


Okay. First, what you read here is not gospel, and it is certainly at least 75% of the time completely devoid of even the most remote resemblance to fact.

Apple would have many legitimate reasons to not offer 1.25GHz iMacs, including:

1) Not enough 1.25GHz PPC chips in production to feed both the PowerMac and iMac lines (the most likely reason). Apple historically charges higher margins for their "Pro" line but rewards their adherents with first-cut at the latest/greatest chips.

2) Unable to overcome heat/other design issues with 1.25GHz G4 in iMac case (unlikely in the long term, but that would at least explain a delay in introduction relative to the PowerMac line)

3) Does not see the market there for an "ultra-high-end" iMac, given the price differential that they pay on the higher-clocked PPCs would be added to the sale price of the machine and the overall movement of their competition towards the low end of price (and quality).

4) A Machiavellian/Pavlovian conspiracy to condition people to believe that if they want "Power" they must buy the line with "Power" in its name, not the line with "i" in it's name ... Note of course that both "Windows" and "Intel" include "i" quite prominently ... :)

Personally, I can see why people believe (4) over the others, just like people enjoyed watching the X-Files and Twilight Zone for years and years,, but I don't in any way see it as the most likely actual reason behind the Apple lineup.

[yamadataro]

Originally posted by MacKenzie999
I have a seemingly Jurassic G4/466 powermac and feel no need to upgrade just yet, but the 20" monitor has my credit card quaking in fear. I've never had an lcd monitor before, does it plug right in to a 466 or do I need some sort of adapter?

I'm not sure if somebody has answered this one yet. The number of posts in here is overwhelming...

You need to check and see if you've got an ADC output on your video card. If it doesn't you need to either 1) upgrade your video card to the one with ADC or 2) get the ADC-to-DVI converter Apple sells.

My guess is that your's has DVI. And getting the new video card is better I think, so that you can take advantage of Quartz screen rendering on X.

[DharvaBinky]

Originally posted by ddtlm
I need speed tests! :eek:

I need noise tests! :eek:

Twitch twitch twitch. Convulse.

Well, I just strapped a Jet Assisted Take Off rocket to the back of one of the new dual 1.42s... and...

It's loud and fast when it breaks the sound barrier. Shattered my neighbor's windows, boy are they pissed.

The system, however, did not survive the crash once the rocket ran out of fuel... what's up with that? I thought OS X was supposed to be "stable"?

*grin*

Dharvabinky

[ddtlm]

Anyone else notice that the fllowing text from Apple's tech specs has been constant for some time:

Up to 2MB DDR SRAM L3 cache per processor, with up to 4GBps throughput
I'm guessing this means that they are not increasing the speed of the L3 as they clock up the G4's. The 7455 does support a huge number of different core/L3 clock divider ratios. I'll have to look around and find out if this is the case.

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by trebblekicked

if the current motochip is stuck at 1ghz, and current 1.42 is a factory overclock job

Why do people keep saying this? Wasn't the 7455 that was originally in the QS DP 1 GHz maxed out? Ithought there was a ceiling on these. I've heard rumors, but have seen no proof that these are overclocked.

In all seriousness, do you honestly think that if Moto can't make a chip faster than 1.0 Ghz that their previous generation chip could be overclocked by 42%?? I don't buy that at all.

[yzedf]

Originally posted by iShater


Neither can I! I can see how a dual machine as an entry level (like the preious 867s) would be a fierce competitor in usability performance, but this machine is WORSE not better than the last entry level! :rolleyes:

FALSE.

Just because OS X is MP aware does not mean that the applications it runs are also.

Photoshop is probably the only widely used app that is hugely (maybe) helped with MP support.

If this is true (most benchmarks say it is) then the upgrade to 1GHz outweighs the change from MP to single, for most apps.

This is the "low end" machine. It is not supposed to be good enough to do "real" work with. Much like the iMac.

This is a classic costs vs benefits situation.

[ktlx]

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Actually, I was not that impressed with that book - it seems that the online pages at http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Cocoa/CocoaTopics.html contained the same info but free.

I do, however like Aaron Hillegass's book, "Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X" ( http://bignerdranch.com/Book/ )

I agree. I found Aaron's book to be the best one I could find on Cocoa Programming in Objective C.

[nero007]

Originally posted by Clockwork
I wonder if these machines feature the 7457 chip?

Doubtful. The system bus is still 167.

[nero007]

Originally posted by littlerich
I like to keep a track of the way that apple moves and I think its great that they do all this upgrading but when I get a new machine I might aswell get a pc. I have just bought a dual 1ghz and am pretty pissed off at the fact if I had waited until now then I could have got a dual 1.25 for the same price.. Or if I didn't get the dual 1.25 now just wait till August to get a dual 1.42 for the same price.. This never used to be like apple... If you buy an apple it usually keeps its value but the way thing are going it seems that apple may and possibly will lose alot of sales to pc's unless they make their prices as cheap as them and as cheap to upgrade. Anyone agree?

So you're mad cause Apple keeps releasing new products? (Btw, I don't agree with you :))

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jettredmont


but in my experience working with PC upgrades, the $200 CPU upgrade is pure, unadulturated myth.

Which, of course, begs the question: why are you here?

Hmmm. So I guess Dell is doing something horrendously wrong with its 2% of the PC market?

Correct, they won't be selling to a buyer who, like you, wishes to be able to construct his own frankenputer in his basement lab. That's never been Apple's market. I'm glad you've realized that.

You are incorrect. You will only need to upgrade your motherboard if you are changing processor families. The 845 chipset will preserve your PC100 or PC133 investment and you will still see significant benefits from upgrading from a PIII or PII.

Do I need a reason to be here? Are you the Macrumors hall monitor? If you don't wish to engage in whatever I'm talking about, move past the post. Judging by the lenghty reply, you seem to enjoy putting forth your opinions. So maybe that's why we're both here, to share opinions though you have a problem respecting those of others and simply want them to leave if they disagree with you or pose questions you cannot answer.

The last figures I saw showed Dell with 16% marketshare, I don't know where you get 2% but if you like present your source. However I don't need you to tell me anything about the PC market, my questions were about Apple.

Did I say that I wanted to construct my own iMac? Are you replying to me or the fantasies in your head? My questions were very specifice. If you have other issues please keep them to yourself. I'm not interested in helping you work them out.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jettredmont


Okay. First, what you read here is not gospel, and it is certainly at least 75% of the time completely devoid of even the most remote resemblance to fact.

Apple would have many legitimate reasons to not offer 1.25GHz iMacs, including:

1) Not enough 1.25GHz PPC chips in production to feed both the PowerMac and iMac lines (the most likely reason). Apple historically charges higher margins for their "Pro" line but rewards their adherents with first-cut at the latest/greatest chips.

2) Unable to overcome heat/other design issues with 1.25GHz G4 in iMac case (unlikely in the long term, but that would at least explain a delay in introduction relative to the PowerMac line)

3) Does not see the market there for an "ultra-high-end" iMac, given the price differential that they pay on the higher-clocked PPCs would be added to the sale price of the machine and the overall movement of their competition towards the low end of price (and quality).

4) A Machiavellian/Pavlovian conspiracy to condition people to believe that if they want "Power" they must buy the line with "Power" in its name, not the line with "i" in it's name ... Note of course that both "Windows" and "Intel" include "i" quite prominently ... :)

Personally, I can see why people believe (4) over the others, just like people enjoyed watching the X-Files and Twilight Zone for years and years,, but I don't in any way see it as the most likely actual reason behind the Apple lineup.

Thank you. I appreciate your reply.

[wumpus]

The low-end represents a serious downgrade - the only reasons Apple did not retain th 867 at the lower price point is because they want to increase their margin on it while giving the illusion of better without cannibalising the iMac. The 1ghz SP is a price/performance DISGRACE. Nothing Apple can do about the FSB bottleneck, Motorola's poor fabbing or any of the G4s shortcomings (at least at this stage), so two processors, built-in Bluetooth, FW800, USB2, ATA/133 (if not Serial ATA) and 8x AGP are REQUIRED to give the ILLUSION at least of value.

When Ars Technica called the current 'Pro' lineup an 'overpriced embarrassment'
some months ago it was an accurate assessment. It is even more accurate now. The LCD and good looks of the iMac can compensate somewhat for PC-trailing performance. But for towers Apple needs to have dual CPUs across the entire line just to PRETEND to compete on performance - of course, at this stage informed pros who don't need a new machine NOW will wait until the 970 comes to close a bit of the gaping gap with WinTel. Maybe Apple knows this and is barely bothering? Why bother to add more than a speed bump when you know that this lead turkey architecture (the 'G4') is on its last legs?

Also, no-one seems to know yet if these are the 7457s or if there is full DDR support (somehow I doubt it). Are these the overclocked 7455s again? (before anyone gets upset about that word - Apple's chips are rated by Moto at that speed, just like I am sure there were 604e chips at the fab that could hit 400mhz with heavy chilling - but the 7455 DESIGN is NOT advertised by Moto as capable of more than 1ghz, thus Apple's are for all intents and purposes overclocked - thus the heavy heat sink and big noise).

And like others, I do get jealous of some of the advantages of commodity computing - just going onto Dabs.com every so often and get a CPU that will SMOKE any G4 for $70 is sickening sometimes…

..An Apple lover since the daze of the ][+…

[yzedf]

Originally posted by Frobozz


Why do people keep saying this? Wasn't the 7455 that was originally in the QS DP 1 GHz maxed out? Ithought there was a ceiling on these. I've heard rumors, but have seen no proof that these are overclocked.

In all seriousness, do you honestly think that if Moto can't make a chip faster than 1.0 Ghz that their previous generation chip could be overclocked by 42%?? I don't buy that at all.

Intel does the same thing, just more often. A P4 running at 2.8GHz is the same thing as a 2.2GHz. Same core etc etc.

This is just marketing... buy what works well for you. Just because something is new and shiny does not make it better for you or me.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Frobozz


Again, I can appreciate your difference in opinion.. but I really don't think you understand the Macintosh market.

Workstation UI's are not any different than the desktop UI for Macs. On top of that it sends chills down my spine to think you don't find Windows repulsive in every way. Granted, it's not the steaming pile of c*** that it used to be... but why on earth applaud that? :-) :-)

What I'm saying is that, if you buy a workstation to be a pure productivity machine, then you'll be working in say, PhotoShop, all day long. The OS UI becomes irrelevant for the most part and the Photoshop UI, which is virtually the same becomes the only meaningful UI on the workstation. So though OS X may be a nicer user experience, for workstation purposes, I believe it is negated by the purpose of the machine.

I'm not buying an iMac because Windows doesn't work well for me. I find it very effecient and stable (2000/XP). I'm switching because of iMac, iLife, Aqua, and because with all the iPod clones coming out, I haven't seen one that I would trade my iPod for and I beleive my iPod will work better as a DLD if I had an iMac. Now's a chance for everyone who desires so, to call me dumb. I'm going to buy a $2000 PC to improve the functionality of my $300 MP3 player.

Only humans, only on earth.....

[JBracy]

Originally posted by yzedf


FALSE.

Just because OS X is MP aware does not mean that the applications it runs are also.

Photoshop is probably the only widely used app that is hugely (maybe) helped with MP support.

If this is true (most benchmarks say it is) then the upgrade to 1GHz outweighs the change from MP to single, for most apps.

This is the "low end" machine. It is not supposed to be good enough to do "real" work with. Much like the iMac.

This is a classic costs vs benefits situation.

Actually your statement is false. All OSX applications will take advantage of dual processors, unlike OS 8 or 9 which needed the application to be specifically written to take advantage of the extra processor.

[ddtlm]

wumpus:

Also, no-one seems to know yet if these are the 7457s or if there is full DDR support (somehow I doubt it). Are these the overclocked 7455s again? (before anyone gets upset about that word - Apple's chips are rated by Moto at that speed, just like I am sure there were 604e chips at the fab that could hit 400mhz with heavy chilling - but the 7455 DESIGN is NOT advertised by Moto as capable of more than 1ghz, thus Apple's are for all intents and purposes overclocked - thus the heavy heat sink and big noise).
Cmon, I thought you were smarter than this. First, of course these are not the 7457 chips... they have 256k of L2. No confusion there. The 7457 will not support DDR unless Hell freezes over. And finally, by now it should be clear that Apple is not some rouge computer maker overclocking it's chips... 42% is huge. Moto is obviously behind this. 42% is damn near overclocking classics like the Celery-300A and P4-1.6-512k. There is no way in Hell that Apple is just getting lucky and getting enough 1.0ghz 7455's that run at 1.42ghz.

Everyone who claims the 1.42ghz G4's in these new machines are overclocked is pretty much being stupid.

[ddtlm]

JBracy:

Actually your statement is false. All OSX applications will take advantage of dual processors, unlike OS 8 or 9 which needed the application to be specifically written to take advantage of the extra processor.
No, actually your statement is false. Few applications can use two processors; you are confusing the ability to run on either chip with the ability to use them both... at the same time. Very different.

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by yzedf


FALSE.

Just because OS X is MP aware does not mean that the applications it runs are also.

Photoshop is probably the only widely used app that is hugely (maybe) helped with MP support.

If this is true (most benchmarks say it is) then the upgrade to 1GHz outweighs the change from MP to single, for most apps.

This is the "low end" machine. It is not supposed to be good enough to do "real" work with. Much like the iMac.

This is a classic costs vs benefits situation.
FALSE (at least partly)

Any multi-threaded application will automatically get a performance boost out of a dual G4 machine under OS X. OS 9 did not provide Symetrical Multi-Processing support so it was up to the application programmers to look for and utilize that 2nd processor. Now, if I start a 2nd thread in my code, OS X will run it on whichever processor it wants to. (That's a simplistic description, but basically accurate)

OS X can also automatically run two single threaded applications on separate processors thus giving better performance to both app's than if they were both running on one.

[pyrotoaster]

First, these new Powermacs are great, with even more than just the wonderful Dual 1.42 GHz G4s (that said, I'd still hold out for the 970, if I was in the market for a PM).

This LCD news is big! A huge price drop on the 23" and the all new 20" display, both are very nice (not to mention the $300 drop on the 17").
Has anyone considered the effect this could have on the iMac line? Considering the fact that next week still looks good for the updates, we should think about the screens on the new machines. No, I don't think we'll see anything bigger than 17", but cheaper... I think it's a real possibility.

[smackdesign]

So the powermacs are now at 1.4 ghzs. If apple updates the line every 6 months we should see them updated next in July. I hope they release the 970 at macworld NY and not another speed bumbed moto chip. I'm crossing my fingers.

[DakotaGuy]

After reading a lot of the posts on here I leave once again confused...

How slow is the 1.42GHz Dual going to be? Some on here make it sound like it will be rather slow and lag badly. I don't know I never owned a G4 yet. I use a lot of Internet, Email, MS Office, iTunes, iPhoto and find the G3's still run pretty well for me. If I had the money would I even be able to tell the difference between one of my old 400-600MHz G3's and the new Dual 1.42? I would think they should be very fast and quite competitive, but I see a lot of people not taking the bait and sticking with their old 400-600Mhz G4's so I am assuming there is not much difference between those and the new ones.

I am just waiting for new iMacs and eMacs. Oh when will we ever see them???????? I hope in a couple of weeks, but am afraid it might be longer now then we had all thought before. Do you think we might get them by at least April 1st? Later...

[eric_n_dfw]

For those who don't know what "multi-threaded" means, from Apple's developer pages: (http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Cocoa/TasksAndConcepts/ProgrammingTopics/Multithreading/Concepts/threads.html#BAJDDJGB) (My emphisis added)

Threads

A thread is an executable unit. A task is made up of one or more threads. Each thread has its own execution stack and is capable of independent input/output. All threads share the virtual memory address space and communication rights of their task. When a thread is started, it is detached from its initiating thread. The new thread runs independently. That is, the initiating thread does not know the new thread's state.

Threads are especially useful when you need to perform a lengthy task, but do not want it to block the execution of the rest of the application. In particular, you want to avoid freezing the user interface, preventing the user from performing additional actions. Threads can also be used to divide a large job into several smaller jobs. Then, if the computer has multiple processors, the jobs can be distributed amongst them for greater efficiency.

A task has only one thread when it first starts. Additional threads can be created using either the POSIX thread APIs (pthreads) or the Cocoa NSThread class.

Consider carefully whether you need to use threads. Due to the overhead associated with proper synchronization (locking, messaging, and so on), raw performance on a single-processor system is somewhat slower for multithreaded applications. Perceived performance might actually be improved due to deferred execution, using timers. One major reward from multithreading your application, though, is improved performance on a multiprocessor system.

© 2002 Apple Computer, Inc. (Last Published October 31, 2002)
(used without permission, Apple, please don't sue me :eek: )

[ddtlm]

smackdesign:

So the powermacs are now at 1.4 ghzs. If apple updates the line every 6 months we should see them updated next in July. I hope they release the 970 at macworld NY and not another speed bumbed moto chip. I'm crossing my fingers.
I'm betting on one more G4 revision before the PPC-970. Those should be 7457's though, with 512k L2 and cooler running.

Abercrombieboy:

My dual-800 does pretty good in 10.2 so I bet the dual 1.42 would be nice and fast.

[Dont Hurt Me]

The new displays are great so are the powermacs but please remember there is a lot of stuff out there that wont see that 2nd cpu! this is a fact!---i think this has a little to do with the base powermac where most apps will do better at 1 gig single then they would be with 2- 867's and then they can lower the entry cost point to the powerline. Now with the FSB at 167 on the top 2 machines I would think there is no where else to go with this config hence that bus must have people hanging out the windows and the escape door on the 1.43. I think this is apple getting the absolute most out of the 7455 which is pretty amazing when you look at it. MOTOROLA needs to get off its A_ _! Maybe they still are having problems with the 7457 which was going to come in at 1.3 ghz i think. So is this all just to keep the powermac lines moving ahead untill the 7457 or is this the last stop for the g4 untill we see the 970 from IBM. Iam hoping this is the last stop for the g4 untill we see the 970 and apple has realized that moto has screwed them long enough! If you think hard about this moto should have had chips at these speeds a year ago! Thats why Apple has done all it could to get the absolute most from these chips. WAY TO GO APPLE!:) -MOTOROLA GO BACK TO TOASTERS AND CELL PHONES:mad:

[reflex]

Originally posted by hobie

Ever noticed how much VAT Tony charges???!? 17.5% is ridiculous, compared to what, 16% in Germany, 13 or so in Holland, and 12% in the US (I might be wrong though on the US part, I'm from the UK).


And it's 21% in Belgium. I also had the impression it was about 17% in Holland, but I could be wrong about that. However bad you think you have it, there's always someone worse off :-)

[Dunepilot]

What about Logic Audio?

Final Cut pro?

These are two BIG apps, used by a lot of professionals to make their money. Dual Processors are important.



Originally posted by yzedf


Photoshop is probably the only widely used app that is hugely (maybe) helped with MP support.

If this is true (most benchmarks say it is) then the upgrade to 1GHz outweighs the change from MP to single, for most apps.

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
I think this is apple getting the absolute most out of the 7455 which is pretty amazing when you look at it.

Actually come to think of it you have a pretty good point. We are all hard on Moto, but if the 7455 can do what it has done considering the fab improvements, bus speed, etc. The 7457 might do some pretty amazing things. I am thinking by the end of the year we could easily see a 2Ghz G4. By then the towers will probably have moved on to the PPC 970, but this is still great news and I would think awesome performance for the iMacs and Powerbooks.

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by MorganX
You can't compare cheap sub $1,000 dollar PC's to Powermacs

Would you like to compare? I'm not iterested but it might give you some insight into how a potential customer like me thinks. Let's do our comparison. What PowerMac would you suggest for $2000. I'll then tell you what PC I will buy for $2000. This excludes a monitor.

I am going to make this very very simple.

I don't care how cheap or expensive you can buy a PC for. The fact is, PC's cannot run iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto, and iDVD.

Period.

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
The new displays are great so are the powermacs but please remember there is a lot of stuff out there that wont see that 2nd cpu! this is a fact!---i think this has a little to do with the base powermac where most apps will do better at 1 gig single then they would be with 2- 867's and then they can lower the entry cost point to the powerline.
Were do you get this?

Unless you are talking about Classic Mac OS software, you are wrong. Most major applications are multi-threaded - they WILL take advantage of a second processor under OS X. (Just like they would on Win NT/2000/XP or an SMP Linux kernel)

If you are talking about Classic app's - then oh well! These machines won't boot into OS 9 anyway and Classic mode is not a viable option for performance craved app's anyway.

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by wumpus
Also, no-one seems to know yet if these are the 7457s or if there is full DDR support (somehow I doubt it). Are these the overclocked 7455s again? (before anyone gets upset about that word - Apple's chips are rated by Moto at that speed, just like I am sure there were 604e chips at the fab that could hit 400mhz with heavy chilling - but the 7455 DESIGN is NOT advertised by Moto as capable of more than 1ghz, thus Apple's are for all intents and purposes overclocked - thus the heavy heat sink and big noise).Looks like these are the 7455 again (still has the 256K on-chip L2 cache running at processor speed).

The 7457 has the 512k L2 cache.

The speed these things are running at is quite amazing considering it finally looks like Motorola got the SOI copper chip with the low-k coating process right (the HiP6).

So these are going to be 7455 Rev 3.3 or newer.

---

But the 2MB of L3 cache for each processor on the high end should put the speed back in these things.

With the current FSB these things really choke with the smaller 1MB L3 cache -- even though it was DDR.

[ddtlm]

eric_n_dfw:

Most major applications are multi-threaded - they WILL take advantage of a second processor under OS X.
Other than a few high-end graphics apps I believe that most applications are single-threaded.

[iShater]

Originally posted by yzedf


FALSE.

Just because OS X is MP aware does not mean that the applications it runs are also.

Photoshop is probably the only widely used app that is hugely (maybe) helped with MP support.

If this is true (most benchmarks say it is) then the upgrade to 1GHz outweighs the change from MP to single, for most apps.


Since OSX is MP aware, my understanding is that it will send processing of threads/apps to different CPUs based on the load. So I can render a movie clip while still using my system, that is where the MP comes in handy and that is where the dual 867 has an advantage over the single 1GHz. That is why I called it usability performance vs. raw speed.


This is the "low end" machine. It is not supposed to be good enough to do "real" work with. Much like the iMac.

This is a classic costs vs benefits situation.

A $1499 Low end machine?!?!?! it is supposed to be good enough to do "real" work and then some! It is not in the same league as the iMac, they MADE it come down to that. Would you consider the previous generation Dual 867 like the iMac?

[Zenith]

Originally posted by reflex
And it's 21% in Belgium. I also had the impression it was about 17% in Holland, but I could be wrong about that. However bad you think you have it, there's always someone worse off :-)

Well, the tax in Norway are 24%. Don't know of any higher...

[iShater]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
After reading a lot of the posts on here I leave once again confused...

How slow is the 1.42GHz Dual going to be? Some on here make it sound like it will be rather slow and lag badly. I don't know I never owned a G4 yet. I use a lot of Internet, Email, MS Office, iTunes, iPhoto and find the G3's still run pretty well for me. If I had the money would I even be able to tell the difference between one of my old 400-600MHz G3's and the new Dual 1.42? I would think they should be very fast and quite competitive, but I see a lot of people not taking the bait and sticking with their old 400-600Mhz G4's so I am assuming there is not much difference between those and the new ones.

I am just waiting for new iMacs and eMacs. Oh when will we ever see them???????? I hope in a couple of weeks, but am afraid it might be longer now then we had all thought before. Do you think we might get them by at least April 1st? Later...


Don't worry, the 1.25GHz duals are smokin', and I bet these top-of-the-line babies will do the same. :D

[reflex]

Originally posted by Zenith


Well, the tax in Norway are 24%. Don't know of any higher...

My point is proven right away :D

[JBracy]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
... but please remember there is a lot of stuff out there that wont see that 2nd cpu! this is a fact!---i think this has a little to do with the base powermac where most apps will do better at 1 gig single then they would be with 2- 867's and then they can lower the entry cost point to the powerline. ...

Sorry, but you're just wrong.

One of Apple's big selling points with OSX and UNIX in general is that it uses Symmetric Multiprocessing. This means that the OS assignes each task to a processor - not each application as is the case with asymmetric multiprocessing which is used in OS8-9. Yes there is some overhead, but 2x867 = 1.734gHz so even if there is 70% overhead for the OS to assign tasks (more like maybe 5-10% in reality), then you're better off with the dual 867.

You can confirm this yourself just by watching the CPU monitor while only running 1 App. the 2 charts will never be that far out of sync.

The real key to understanding this is knowing what the words mean. Lookup symmetric in the dictionary you'll find something like this:

ADJECTIVE:
1. Characterized by or displaying symmetry, especially correspondence in scale or measure: balanced, proportional, proportionate, regular, symmetric. See SAME. 2. Having components pleasingly combined: balanced, congruous, harmonious. See BEAUTIFUL.

[andrewh]

Originally posted by ddtlm
eric_n_dfw:


Other than a few high-end graphics apps I believe that most applications are single-threaded.

Well, I don't know exactly whether it is the applications or OS that utilizes multi processors more, but I have a real world test. My work machine is a dual 533mhz and my home machine is a single 533mhz.

On both machines, I am typically running Photoshop, Adobe Golive, Flash MX, IE, Safari, iTunes, Entourage, Suitcase, Jrun4, MySQL server, and occasionally Illustrator or InDesign, with some pretty big files open. I can tell you for a fact, the dual processor machine has significantly better performance. I use both machines every day. Anyone who says otherwise is very very wrong. Perhaps the difference is not noticeable while just using email and browsing the web, but for running multiple, intensive applications the second processor is really put to use. I don't know how, I don't care how, I just know it helps a lot. I'm glad Apple did this and will always be willing to pay more for it.

[Inhale420]

the monitors are now competitive, but 'powermac' and 'value' still don't belong in the same sentence.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy


Actually come to think of it you have a pretty good point. We are all hard on Moto, but if the 7455 can do what it has done considering the fab improvements, bus speed, etc. The 7457 might do some pretty amazing things. I am thinking by the end of the year we could easily see a 2Ghz G4. By then the towers will probably have moved on to the PPC 970, but this is still great news and I would think awesome performance for the iMacs and Powerbooks. I think this is true where maybe the consumer line will move to 7457 and the pro line to the 970 where now moto and ibm have reversed the duties they played. I wouldnt expect a 2ghz g4 in the imac but maybe a 1.3 or 1.5 by years end if we are very lucky.

[jrv3034]

Originally posted by Inhale420
the monitors are now competitive, but 'powermac' and 'value' still don't belong in the same sentence.

True, but they're getting better at it. The high end PowerMac is cheaper than previous high end Apple systems.

[hobie]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe


You can't mix and match a Mac like you can a PC from Dell (for example) because Apple doesn't have warehouses full of generic, standard from cases and monitors like Dell does. You can't buy a completely custimized iMac for the same reason you can't buy a copmpletely custimized laptop. They both have propriatary case designs that must take into account size and shape of components aswell as the heat produced.


Lethal

Oh boy, do you have any idea how the Dell system works? They have only 2 days of material in stock, demand their suppliers to deliver within 4 hours! And, believe it or not, they also have completely customisable laptops.
It is very possible that Apple has even more stock of raw material than Dell does.

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by ddtlm
eric_n_dfw:


Other than a few high-end graphics apps I believe that most applications are single-threaded.
Doubtfull. Examples of app's that I would bet my life are multi-threaded:
IE
Netscape
Chimera
Mozilla
Safari
iMovie
iTunes
iDVD
iPhoto
Finder (not well done from what I've heard though)
MS Office (all apps)
Keynote
Most of the BSD Core apps (although many of them "fork" processes which, to the user is just about the same) - ie: Apache
The developer tools
Premier
Photoshop
After Effects
Acrobat
the list would go on...

My point is, for large applications, multi-threading (or process forking) is the normal way to do things - not an exceptional situation.

[Tiauguinho]

I have a QuickSilver DP 1ghz and i find my PowerMac to be very but very fast at everything that I do (This includes the Flash MX, Fireworks MX and Photoshop 7). So the new PowerMac MDD DP 1.42Ghz wont be slow at all! Most be an amazing machine!! I'm very anxious to see some Xbench results! Must be a hell of a Mac!

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by JBracy


Sorry, but you're just wrong.

One of Apple's big selling points with OSX and UNIX in general is that it uses Symmetric Multiprocessing. This means that the OS assignes each task to a processor - not each application as is the case with asymmetric multiprocessing which is used in OS8-9. Yes there is some overhead, but 2x867 = 1.734gHz so even if there is 70% overhead for the OS to assign tasks (more like maybe 5-10% in reality), then you're better off with the dual 867.

You can confirm this yourself just by watching the CPU monitor while only running 1 App. the 2 charts will never be that far out of sync.

The real key to understanding this is knowing what the words mean. Lookup symmetric in the dictionary you'll find something like this:

ADJECTIVE:
1. Characterized by or displaying symmetry, especially correspondence in scale or measure: balanced, proportional, proportionate, regular, symmetric. See SAME. 2. Having components pleasingly combined: balanced, congruous, harmonious. See BEAUTIFUL. Such bull ---get off your butt ( i can see your not a mac gamer) go get a game such as UT ,UT2003 when its released,RTCW,4x4 Evolution now run these on a 867 dual now run these on a 1 gig single and you will find the 1 gig single will blow away your dual 867! go read inside mac gaming or look at acclearate your mac for test they do on different machines. many time they use games ! frame rates! Sure there are those few( such as Quake 3) that know how to use that 2nd cpu just as in the graphics world but again 90% of the stuff out there DONT! SO WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT 2ND CPU ISNT DOING MUCH UNLESS YOUR PLAYING ITUNES IN THE BACKGROUND OR YOUR DOING A GAUZING BLURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! IAM INTERESTED IN FRAME RATES! NOT SLIDE SHOWS!:mad: Just because the OS uses SMP does not mean the application you are running does.

[iShater]

Originally posted by jrv3034


True, but they're getting better at it. The high end PowerMac is cheaper than previous high end Apple systems.

I agree, I consider it competetive when I customize a Dell with similar options, choose top of the line Dell apps (their photo, movie, music, stuff etc.) to simulate (i.e. not as good as) iLife and the price difference is $300 or less.

Top of the line new PM does that nicely, mid-range the gap goes to around $500, low end though ... let us not go there .... :rolleyes:

[brian0526]

Looks like Apple really stirred up things here with the announcements today. As someone who is waiting for the refreshed iMacs, I'm a little concerned.

1.) I wonder if Apple will give us at least a 1 GHz processor now that the low end of the PowerMac is only a single 1 GHz processor.

2.) I wonder if they'll improve the speed of the bus on the iMac or purposely cripple it to keep it slower than the slowest PowerMac.

3.) I had been considering biting the bullet and buying a PowerMac instead of the high end iMac. But, I wonder if the low end PowerMac with only a single 1 GHZ CPU is worth the money. That, along with a 17" display puts me $200 more than the top of the line iMac today-which I guess will drop in price when the iMac line finally gets refreshed. I wonder if the dual 867 PowerMac might be a better option if I could get one of those cheap now that they're discontinued.

Hmmm....

Brian

[JBracy]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Such bull ---get off your butt ( i can see your not a mac gamer) go get a game such as UT ,UT2003 when its released,RTCW,4x4 Evolution now run these on a 867 dual now run these on a 1 gig single and you will find the 1 gig single will blow away your dual 867! go read inside mac gaming or look at acclearate your mac for test they do on different machines. many time they use games ! frame rates! Sure there are those few( such as Quake 3) that know how to use that 2nd cpu just as in the graphics world but again 90% of the stuff out there DONT! SO WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT 2ND CPU ISNT DOING MUCH UNLESS YOUR PLAYING ITUNES IN THE BACKGROUND OR YOUR DOING A GAUZING BLURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! IAM INTERESTED IN FRAME RATES! NOT SLIDE SHOWS!:mad: Just because the OS uses SMP does not mean the application you are running does.

No I'm not a gammer, I'm a developer. I've worked for some of the larger Apple developers, and I know how Macs work.

While a bit too complicated to go into on an online forum, basically if an application is written properly then OS X does all the work and will run it on both processors. This is different to applications written for OS 8/9 that needed a special set of instructions to use the second processor. If your apps are not using the second processor than the developer is not doing his job properly. Try doing a little research look at Apple's developer web site. You might learn something.

Oh and BTW, frame rate is more dependent on your graphics card than the processor.

[iShater]

Originally posted by brian0526
Looks like Apple really stirred up things here with the announcements today. As someone who is waiting for the refreshed iMacs, I'm a little concerned.

1.) I wonder if Apple will give us at least a 1 GHz processor now that the low end of the PowerMac is only a single 1 GHz processor.

2.) I wonder if they'll improve the speed of the bus on the iMac or purposely cripple it to keep it slower than the slowest PowerMac.

3.) I had been considering biting the bullet and buying a PowerMac instead of the high end iMac. But, I wonder if the low end PowerMac with only a single 1 GHZ CPU is worth the money. That, along with a 17" display puts me $200 more than the top of the line iMac today-which I guess will drop in price when the iMac line finally gets refreshed. I wonder if the dual 867 PowerMac might be a better option if I could get one of those cheap now that they're discontinued.

Hmmm....

Brian

1) The iMac might not hit 1Ghz, they might go to 933 and keep the 800 as the low end, but I am not sure where that would leave the eMac.

2) They might, but they will sure do something to make it slower, especially now that the low-end PM has a single CPU.

3) I don't think it is worth the money. But that is my opinion, find a dual 867, it will probably be faster than the net iMac and you will get duals. This depends on how you plan to use the machine.

[ddtlm]

andrewh:

Hey I never said that two processors can't run two single-threaded apps at once. :) Just not one single-threaded app on both processors at once.

JBracy:

You can confirm this yourself just by watching the CPU monitor while only running 1 App. the 2 charts will never be that far out of sync.
The charts actually reveal that OSX can't keep a single task on a single CPU, and instead juggles them madly, which I think is stupid and probably slows things down.

eric_n_dfw:

Doubtfull. Examples of app's that I would bet my life are multi-threaded:
Whatever. That list is full of BS. The browsers are not meaningfully multithreaded (well Safari could be but not the Moz ones), iTunes and all that crap has never done anything with a second CPU in my experience, MS Office has never done anything with a second CPU that I've noticed, the BSD apps as you call them (command line tools) are almost all not multithreaded, and the rest of that is the kind of high-end app I was talking about. To summarise: that list is a load a crap and you'll see no SMP speedup in the vast majority of the items within it. (Unless you run more than one at once.)

the list would go on...

My point is, for large applications, multi-threading (or process forking) is the normal way to do things - not an exceptional situation.
[Edited for niceness.] A few piddly forks or a itty bitty bit of threading is irrelevant to performance of duals vs singles.

[edenwaith]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
1.42 Dual...I know most people on here are going to complain that is too slow and would get kicked by a Celeron...but I would have to think that thing must be a fast computer!!!

Forget that! I bet my Tandy 1000 HX with an 8088 microprocessor running at a blazing 8 MHz could kick the crap out of one of those silly 1.42 GHz (Dual) PowerMacs! 640 K forever!

[medea]

gee over 200 replies to this already, not sure there is anything left to say, but I personally love the fact that both the displays and macs sport lower prices, great move apple.

[edenwaith]

Originally posted by littlerich
I still love my little dual 1ghz.. now I just want to start developing on the thing.. Anyone no of any books for learning objective c?

If you mean Cocoa, I'd say, start with Cocoa For Mac OS X by Aaron Hillegass (sp?) or Learning Cocoa. Then after having some experience, Building Cocoa Applications has proven to be a great resource for me.

[iJon]

does anybody know the pixel refresh rates on these 20 inchers (sounds like dubs). I plan on playing games on this on my pc and i wanna make sure i cant see a gun trail on my screen, if anybody can tell me if it is the same as the 22 or 17 because i got those to play with and i can see if i have a lag on it. thanks. doesnt seem like apple specifies it no more than "lighning fast"

iJon

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by JBracy


No I'm not a gammer, I'm a developer. I've worked for some of the larger Apple developers, and I know how Macs work.

While a bit too complicated to go into on an online forum, basically if an application is written properly then OS X does all the work and will run it on both processors. This is different to applications written for OS 8/9 that needed a special set of instructions to use the second processor. If your apps are not using the second processor than the developer is not doing his job properly. Try doing a little research look at Apple's developer web site. You might learn something.

Oh and BTW, frame rate is more dependent on your graphics card than the processor. Then get a dualie, but as far as mac gaming goes most ports( read ports) are usually not using all this cool mac stuff nor the 2nd processor but some of the better companies try to make use of it such as id, But when i see a great new title like Unreal tournament 2003 will not use SMP then of coarse i want clock cycles. Remember Apple did all that dualies stuff to try to make up for where motorola was not taking them! And to a large extent they have succeded with super cool OSX. Even now though it looks like it is still up to them since no g5 or 7457 from motorola! MOTOROLA sure is quite about their CPU's

[job]

Just wanted to inject some humor in this thread:

My first brand new Mac was a 7200. It was a 601 running at 75Mhz.

I worked with that until I bought my second brand new Mac, a slot-loading iMac DV running at 400Mhz.

Keeping with the rate of Mhz increases when I buy a new Mac, I should purchase a new Mac when they hit 2133Mhz (see work below). :p :D

400/75 = 5.333
5.333*400=2133Mhz.

:)

Anyways, I don't think the 1Ghz is all that bad. Then again, coming from someone on a slot-loading iMac... :rolleyes:

[iShater]

Originally posted by ddtlm
andrewh:
To summarise: that list is a load a crap and you'll see no SMP speedup in the vast majority of the items within it. (Unless you run more than one at once.)


So do you agree that the DP867 were a better choice than the 1Ghz low-end no?

[job]

Heh, that's pretty funny.

Did anyone else notice the "Give us your feedback on the Powermac" link at the bottom of the main PM page?

[8thDegreeSavage]

Originally posted by appeLappe
Hi there! This is my first post! :)

I?ve noticed that you can choose to update the GPU to either the Geoforce4 Ti or the ATI 9700 Pro for the same price.

Anyone has any thoughts on which to choose?


9700 HANDS DOWN....it kills the Ti.

[iJon]

Originally posted by 8thDegreeSavage



9700 HANDS DOWN....it kills the Ti.
and the fx kills the 9700. and so on and so on. both companies will always be a step behind each other, it just depends if your talking to a ati or nvida person. on my mac i could care less who makes my video card but on my pc its nvidia all the way, ati has poor driver implentation on the pc said and the ti's and fx's beat em, wouldnt have anything else. now lets get those audigy drivers out for mac and our machines will kind of be gaming machines.

iJon

[digitalrampage]

Single processor for $1499?

For the extra $200, the dual 867 was a much faster machine...

To add to this, NO superdrive in the Mid Range....

Bluetooth is an Optional adaptor...

I SAY, WELCOME TO the NEW SCREENS AND PRICING...

And someone needs to be smacked in the head at apple for the new powermac lineup...

FOOLS!

I sell this stuff, powerbooks, GREAT NEWS, Powermacs BIG LOSS

[job]

Originally posted by iJon
now lets get those audigy drivers out for mac and our machines will kind of be gaming machines.

well, you could always go for this thing instead...

http://www.m-audio.net/products/consumer/revolution_page1.php

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by bentmywookie


Welcome!

I would recommend the ATI 9700 Pro - it is the current top-of-the-line graphics card as far as I know. (And officially endorsed by Jon Carmack in case you wanted to play Doom III if they release it for Macs).

That's good enough for me.

Rocketman

http://www.v-serv.com/-upload/avatar.jpg

[Dont Hurt Me]

As of this moment in time 9700 is the king. but next month or 2 the FX will rule! Just not to sure of those ati drivers as they seem to update those things constantly. nvidia seems to be a little more on top of the drivers.

[job]

Originally posted by digitalrampage
To add to this, NO superdrive in the Mid Range....

Is an extra $200 for the BTO option all that much?