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View Full Version : When is Apple Going to Give Us the Option to Upgrade Our Machines!!?


rEd Eye
Jan 30, 2003, 03:32 AM
I don't mean 'add more ram" or "add another hard drive",I mean "UPGRADE MY MACHINE!".
I want to be able to throw the latest greatest mobo and CPU in my G4 without having to buy every damn piece of the computer again!
I am presently "switching" (you figure out the rest) because Apple has the audacity to assume that I have $5000 canadian dollars to spend every time I would like to upgrade my machine.This is BS!!!
I am presently building a fully configurable,very tweakable Intel machine that is smokin' fast with every conceivable feature I could ever want for less than $2000 Canadian.When I want to upgrade to the latest mobo and second greatest CPU (or third for that matter cause you can OC the **** out of these things),I'll probably be looking at spending $500-$1000 at the very very most to have the latest greatest again.
Why go Apple?Because the OS doesn't crash and is aqua coloured?
Well neither does Windows XP and...aqua!!!?
It's pretty much so long Apple for now untill you can give me a economicly viable solution to affordably upgrading my machine without having to sell it off as scrap parts and starting all over.You have taken me for well over $10000 in the last three years,and that's all you'll be getting from me untill you change your elitist marketing approach!
end rant:
:begin flames

Nipsy
Jan 30, 2003, 03:48 AM
Go to dell.com and see if dell will sell you a processor or a mobo.

Apple is not an upgrade seller.

If you want upgrades, you need to buy upgrades. You can buy dual proc. cards for older machines from the likes of PowerLogix, etc.

I hate to bring up the tired car analogy again, but if you drive a Ford, you can go to PepBoys and buy a new motor for it, and be screamin around town with your V8 muscle. The same is not true if you buy a Porsche. I'd take a Porsche over a Ford every time.

Apple is luxury computing. It is for the people who know that better things cost more. Apple is also driving it's prices steadily down. They'll never compete with commodity PCs, but a top end PowerBook cost $4800 5 years ago, and $3300 today. Remember that 5 years ago, $4800 had a lot more worth. PowerMacs are trending down as well.

If you can't afford it, quit whining about it and enjoy mucking about your BIOS, recovering from worms, and signing the deed of your house over to M$ (line 16487 of the Windows XP EULA).

digitalgiant
Jan 30, 2003, 03:59 AM
OK,,,,,good bye

rEd Eye
Jan 30, 2003, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by Nipsy
Go to dell.com and see if dell will sell you a processor or a mobo.

I am not buying a dell.Even if I was,I'm sure it would be quite easy to replace the mobo and cpu through another "reseller",which is all dell really is anyways.Dell doesn't supply cpu's,Intel and AMD do,And who knows who makes their crappy mobo's?

Apple is not an upgrade seller.

Why would they be?They've got us hook line and sinkered into buying the whole kit everytime because they are the only source of the essential components

If you want upgrades, you need to buy upgrades. You can buy dual proc. cards for older machines from the likes of PowerLogix, etc.

Yea!That's great......if your into yesterdays news at way to high prices

I hate to bring up the tired car analogy again, but if you drive a Ford, you can go to PepBoys and buy a new motor for it, and be screamin around town with your V8 muscle. The same is not true if you buy a Porsche. I'd take a
Porsche over a Ford every time.

Huh?Must be a typo.The Ford is sounding a lot better here.

Apple is luxury computing. It is for the people who know that better things cost more. Apple is also driving it's prices steadily down. They'll never compete with commodity PCs, but a top end PowerBook cost $4800 5 years ago, and $3300 today. Remember that 5 years ago, $4800 had a lot more worth. PowerMacs are trending down as well.

Apple is a luxery name.All the hardware is just .....hardware.I can put all the same addons and peripherals in a PC for 50- 65% of what Apple charges for the same stuff

If you can't afford it, quit whining about it and enjoy mucking about your BIOS, recovering from worms, and signing the deed of your house over to M$ (line 16487 of the Windows XP EULA).

Thanks for the advice.Actually,I kind of enjoy mucking around.Apple is so "you can look but you can't touch"I like having specific control over exactly what components I get when I buy a machine.Even more,I like having control over every performance aspect of those components.Even more,I enjoy upgrading components that I see fit to upgrade at an affordable price.
Its not that I can't afford Apple.it's just that with the lack of configurability and upgradeability Apple just really isn't worth the money,especially in comparison to how up to todays needs I can keep a PC for a fraction of the cost.
btw,in two years of owning a PC,I have yet to contract any viruses!
Also,I would guess that at Apples present rate of commercialism killing of what's left of it's quaint friendly "think different"appeal,it won't be long before we're signing our homes over to Apple Corp.as well!

Nipsy
Jan 30, 2003, 05:12 AM
I am not buying a dell.Even if I was,I'm sure it would be quite easy to replace the mobo and cpu through another "reseller",which is all dell really is anyways.Dell doesn't supply cpu's,Intel and AMD do,And who knows who makes their crappy mobo's?
_______________________________

Well, then Apple is a Moto/IBM reseller. So what?

As to their crappy mobos, show me a AMD/Intel chipset which supports everything Apple does, without user configurables, without a BIOS, without a 640 x 480 boot screen, without legacy wiring (parallel, PS/2, floppy controller, etc.), with funtional plug and play support, and your argument will have gained some ground.

_______________________________

Why would they be?They've got us hook line and sinkered into buying the whole kit everytime because they are the only source of the essential components
_______________________________

Well, I get my drives (hard and optical), ram, and video cards from online retailers who aren't Apple. If I wanted a processor (or two) there's PowerLogix, Sonnet, etc. So mobo, case, and PS are the only items 'controlled' by Apple.
_______________________________

Yea!That's great......if your into yesterdays news at way to high prices
_______________________________

Ummm....$2000 Canadian is what you're spending to build a box. That sounds like it oughtta buy a Dual 1GHz card, max your RAM, a new IBM 180GXP, a Pioneer DVR-A05, and a beer.
_______________________________

uh?Must be a typo.The Ford is sounding a lot better here.
_______________________________

If you prefer commodity items, don't bitch about the cost of premium items.
_______________________________

Apple is a luxery name.All the hardware is just .....hardware.I can put all the same addons and peripherals in a PC for 50- 65% of what Apple charges for the same stuff
_______________________________

I agree that you're a rube if you buy your RAM, HDs, etc. from Apple. These are commodity parts which can be obtained much cheaper elsewhere. However, Apple is more than a luxury name. They've put more into making computing pleasant than all the other manufacturers combined. I am happy to pay a premium for:
design (the El Capitan line of cases are the best ever made)
stability (I have XP Pro, I have 2000, I have NT Server 4, and I have several linux distros on different machines. The Windows flavors are NOT close to the stability of OS X. The linux distros can be very stable, but they are very hard to use for non programming tasks)
security (M$ SQL server slows down the whole friggin' net over the weekend, virii, 74 vulns last year, reactive [not proactive] security sensibiliities, etc)
privacy (print the XP EULA and read it [with a lawyer if possible])
_______________________________

Thanks for the advice.Actually,I kind of enjoy mucking around.Apple is so "you can look but you can't touch"I like having specific control over exactly what components I get when I buy a machine.Even more,I like having control over every performance aspect of those components.Even more,I enjoy upgrading components that I see fit to upgrade at an affordable price.
Its not that I can't afford Apple.it's just that with the lack of configurability and upgradeability Apple just really isn't worth the money,especially in comparison to how up to todays needs I can keep a PC for a fraction of the cost.
btw,in two years of owning a PC,I have yet to contract any viruses!
Also,I would guess that at Apples present rate of commercialism killing of what's left of it's quaint friendly "think different"appeal,it won't be long before we're signing our homes over to Apple Corp.as well!
_______________________________

Well, that's the difference between us. I prefer fixing problems by using a computer to do things, to actually fixing computers. With OS X, I can spend my time writing software to make life easier, instead of pulling my hair out debugging why explorer.exe keeps quitting.

For me, this is worth the premium for Apple's hardware. A day's work covers the cost difference, and I save a week a year not fighting th machine. I shudder to think about the time I would waste mucking about on the Windows machines I have if I used them as primarys.

What are 'today's needs' that an early AGP G4 can't meet? Audio/video? Can't be, else you'd know the value of a Mac in these areas.

If 'today's needs' are P2P, and gaming, by all means, get a PC.

I still don't see what you mean about configurability & upgradeability. I have a machine with 2GB of RAM, a 480GB internal hardware RAID, driving three monitors with two video cards, SCSI support, dual opticals, 13 USB devices, and an iPod, and it never skips a beat.

I work it pretty hard with a boatload of server daemons and service running always, and 20-30 apps at all times, and its not slow, but when it feels slow, I can either pop in a new daughtercard, or sell it on eBay, and buy a new one with my eBay proceeds and $500.

Anyway, thanks for letting us know you're switching, and getting that one last feeble cry onto MR. Enjoy Windows.

dstorey
Jan 30, 2003, 06:46 AM
I use only a PC and they arn't as upgradeable as you think, like just buying the latest and greatest when they come out. My pc can't upgrade past a pentium pc just like your apple can't upgrade past a G4 or whatever. This is because a newer (say pentium 3, 4 etc) motherboard and processor wont fit in the case, they change the form factors etc, they change the soccet to attach the prossor too etc so if i want to upgrade i have to buy a whole new machineSure I can put new memory, Graphics card etc in but i cant go further than the highest processor in its family. I guess this is the same with Apples as you can add more memory, put in a sound card or whatever you want the same. The only reason I havn't switched is because I can't afford an Apple yet, even though my poor pentium 200 is on its knees and crawling

Bear
Jan 30, 2003, 07:15 AM
Sure you can upgrade most PCs bit by bit. However, since once you get to an upgrade where you have to change processors, you usually hgave to replace teh memory as well. And then you want a new faster video card and a new this and a new that.

By the time you're done, you have a whole system minus the case and maybe harddrive. (Presuming you upgraded the CD/DVD drive as well.)

How much is another case? And at that point, you get a new powersupply in the new case. You've just bought a whole new system essential. So Apple's approach isn't that bad. You can upgrade the video board and add drives to the PowerMacs.

Buy an HP/Compaq PC or a Dell PC and you'll find ouy you have to go to them and buy their motherboards since they don't use the standard form factor for intel motherboards.

Oh, you want to build your own PC? Well, yes, then you get the ultimate in upgradability, and if that's all you care about, then go do it, but you lose out on a bunch of other things.

I can speak from experience on the above. Experiences that I don't want to deal with again.

What I like about Apples approach is that all the hardware has been tested by Apple.

In the Windows world, everything may have been tested, but maybe not in the combination you've tried. I saw a Matrox video board that couldn't work with the Creative DVD decoder board.

Windows is plug and pray. Apple is plug and play.

LethalWolfe
Jan 30, 2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by dstorey
I use only a PC and they arn't as upgradeable as you think, like just buying the latest and greatest when they come out. My pc can't upgrade past a pentium pc just like your apple can't upgrade past a G4 or whatever. This is because a newer (say pentium 3, 4 etc) motherboard and processor wont fit in the case, they change the form factors etc, they change the soccet to attach the prossor too etc so if i want to upgrade i have to buy a whole new machineSure I can put new memory, Graphics card etc in but i cant go further than the highest processor in its family. I guess this is the same with Apples as you can add more memory, put in a sound card or whatever you want the same. The only reason I havn't switched is because I can't afford an Apple yet, even though my poor pentium 200 is on its knees and crawling

The standard for mobo's has been the ATX form factor for years. As long as you start with a nonpropriatary case and mobo then you can use that case indefinetly. This is assuming you have a full/mid tower and not a mini/micro tower cases which I believe use the "baby AT" form factor.


Lethal

EDIT: Red Eye, you obviously don't want to buy what Apple is selling so go buy what you want. Why the hissy-fit for the world to see? And sense you seem to need to have the fastest rig on the block I really hope you like replacing proc's sense you'll be doing it every couple of months now.

iJon
Jan 30, 2003, 11:11 AM
This guy is right but I think of Apple not doing this lets them keep their special touch. I have built a pc and on thing sucks about it, There is no one company to call when something goes wrong. I think to ford/bmw comparison is all wrong. I think of it as a pimped out civic vs. a stock bmw. the civis is gonna be faster because its got the cold air intake, the nos, the better flywheel yada yada yada. but the bmw is gonna have a superior engine that is quite close to the civic right out of the box without the upgrades. with the bmw you get the gps, leather seats, heated mirrors, bose or harmon kardon stero, voice activated cell phones, all those little things that work together so nicely, now you can get these features with the civic, but it requires purchasing and having stuff installed, but never seems as nice as the bmw because it had it all to begin with. plus that bmw will proabably have a better sell value and work better over the years than the civic. PC's are way more upgradable than macs and there is no doubt about it. We are restricted to certian products. On my pc i can go get a geforce4 mx, or 4200,4400,4600 or a radeon 9700 all inwonder. but on my mac i have to order from apple for 399 and thats it. you cant buy any new mobos from anyone to upgrade your computer. I just built a very nice pc for about 1000 dollars and i love it (not as much as my mac). In the future I can buy a top of line mobo for about 100-150 dollars and about 200 for a near top of the line intel processor (or a little bit cheaper if you are a amd guy yuck....). Sure I may have to get some new ram and if i choose a new video card, but it will always be cheaper than what you can do with a mac. I dont mind though. I know this fact and I just deal with. I will continue to pay a premium price for a premium product for apple as long as they keep making them. Let this guy go buy a pc, i dont care what computer he uses and you guys probably shouldnt either. this is a site for mac lovers, not people who want to dicuss their hate towards the company.

iJon

crazytom
Jan 30, 2003, 12:31 PM
I would upgrade my mac more often if apple would let you customize a bare bones system. Like on my current machine...I got the minimum that was allowed, then maxed out memory and put in 2 drives...what would have cost around $1500 @ apple but only cost me $700. I could have saved some more by not buying their 80GB HD or the Combo Drive.... Apple's 'minimum' system is getting ridiculous: on the top of the line; minimun RAM = 512 MB; HD = 120 GB; it will cost you $200 to take out the combo drive and put in a superdrive....I see superdrives selling for $240. Though I've noticed their RAM prices have come down quite a bit from a year ago.

Nipsy
Jan 30, 2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by crazytom
[Bit will cost you $200 to take out the combo drive and put in a superdrive....I see superdrives selling for $240. Though I've noticed their RAM prices have come down quite a bit from a year ago. [/B]

To be fair, combo drives cost around $40, so if you pull out the combo drive, and add the SuperDrive, Apple is giving you a good deal here (about retail).

Tommy!
Jan 30, 2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Nipsy
and signing the deed of your house over to M$ (line 16487 of the Windows XP EULA).

what's that all about?? tell us more!

sparkleytone
Jan 30, 2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by digitalgiant
OK,,,,,good bye

ya...bye.

FlamDrag
Jan 30, 2003, 04:31 PM
Disclaimer: I have no expectations of what I'm about to say coming true so let's not get into a fight about that.

What I would really love to see on Apple.com/store is the option to 'build your own' with every possible combination of parts. Yes, it's close right now, but not really.

Just show me one or two box options, 7 processor options (1Ghz, 1.25 Ghz, 1.42Ghz and dual configs of each and the fastest G3), every compatible RAM configuraton of each, every compatible HD config, iPod bay... etc etc.

Then let me order it.

AppleCare only covers what you order before mods. If you want a DP1.42 with 128RAM b/c you're going to upgrade it when you get home - then great. That's what AppleCare will cover. Put in anything else - tough.

Charge me a $50 premium for doing this over a "prebuilt" system and we're good.

Of course they'd keep their standard models for those who don't know how / don't want to over-configure their machine. But give us the OPTION to if we want to.

I know that's too messy for Apple though. KISS is their motto so it won't happen.

But still, it'd be nice.

8thDegreeSavage
Jan 30, 2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by rEd Eye




If your so tired of the Apple scene...

Why bother posting this here then....just curious.

zac4mac
Jan 30, 2003, 08:29 PM
If you haven't noticed, the Tech world sux right now.
FlamDrag - the shopping spree you "dream" of is pretty much the choice I had when I ordered my dual 500 in October 2000. I BTO'd a base unit with a choice of 3 proc configs, RAM, HDDs, 3 opticals, 3 Vid cards, zip, airport. everything but a choice of power supply.

Can't believe anybody is griping about Apple's prices now - I just picked up a new 22" Cinema for 1500 bucks. I'm stoked.

Zack

dstorey
Jan 31, 2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe


As long as you start with a nonpropriatary case and mobo then you can use that case indefinetly.

my original point still stands up as even if you can keep the same case, that costs what? 20 quid? your replacing the motherboard etc anyway after your pc reaches the end of its processor family so whats the price of a case off a new computer, its hardly enough to make a difference. Plus whos to say the form factor isn't gonna change again in a few years. Its still as cheap and easier to buy a new machine in the pc world after your computer is maxed out and a few years old.

Dazzler
Jan 31, 2003, 04:15 AM
At the end of the day, when I've done all there is to say and do, the Mac's resale is what clinches the deal - same as the BMW.

I'd rather have the longer lifespan and value for money my iMac and iBook are going to give me, and know I can get a great price if and when I decide to sell in the future.

Same goes with the car - I know I'm going to get great resale on my BMW when I come to trade it/upgrade - especially after my last Ford devaluing $20,000 in 4 years.

What's the average lifespan of your average PC anyway? 2 years? How about a Mac - somewhere around 5 or so?

bigizzy
Jan 31, 2003, 06:18 AM
First let me say that I do not own a Mac as yet. Purely due to lack of money else would have surely given it a try. Also I think they are not available in India where I live. I have used many os's including BEos, Linux, Solaris, WinXX.

You know what apple really ought to do?
They should make it easy for a person to open their box and see what is inside. This might already be possible but since I don't own one I don't know.

They should make it easy for users to change standard parts in the computer such as display adapter, ram, hdd, optical drives sound card etc. I think this is possible today but am not sure.

They should let users log on and build their own mac's.

I think this will allow the user to build his own and whenever required upgrade using industry standard parts.

I think they should also try to make plain vannila cabinets at cheaper costs so that users can assemble thier own cheaps macs at the mac site.

Sure the users stil will not get as wide a choice as PC users but hey PC users just talk about having a wide choice but when they go to buy we just have a couple of brands in mind and we choose from those. For e.g if I go to buy a new display card for my pc I will say I will buy either ATI or NVidea chipset and ofcourse the actual manufacturer's name is not even known since the boards are manufactured in taiwan or some such place and not by ATI.

so that was my 2 Paise??

Would love it if Apple starts selling hard in the rest of the world too and not beleive that US is their only market. Ofcourse the rates have to be much cheaper for it to sell in India. 4000$ is 200,000 Rs and that is more than the salary which an average person earns in India. Also in places like India very few people actually buy branded PC's either cause they too are expensive. People here buy P4's with all the works for less than 60,000 Rs which is 1200$.

benixau
Jan 31, 2003, 07:20 AM
1: apple had easy to open etc cases years before the pc even knew that you didnt need screws (they still dont)

2: I can change every little thing in my mac for something else except for my PSU, mobo and CPUs. i can u/g my cpus though.

3: BTO is an OK idea. go to apple.com and have a look. then think. apple has pretty much done that already. sure it isnt TRUE BTO but on the pmac you get as close as anything.

4:A PC user can choose ATi or nVidia etc as the CHIPSET. we cant choose leadtek, or MSI etc. we have a limited range. it drives up prices cause there is noone to compete with them.

5: If you ever come here again and try to tell us what apple should do before you have even SEEN or USED one ..... how rude!!! :mad:


PS. apple sells overseas (AU, UK, EU etc) just at higher prices. ok ok in AU we get a good deal, about AUD2 - 10 more expensive than in US AFTER currency conversion.

iJon
Jan 31, 2003, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by benixau
2: I can change every little thing in my mac for something else except for my PSU, mobo and CPUs. i can u/g my cpus though.

yeah but the thing is that is what he wants to upgrade. the pcs got us beat on the upgrades.

iJon

JustAGuy
Jan 31, 2003, 12:35 PM
Actually, there's a good thread over at Ars about building a mac from scratch. This includes ordering CPU & mobo from a 3rd party. IIRC, the big issue he had was with modding a PSU to work at the correct voltage, but if you're upgrading you already have the PSU...

Of course, I think in the end he saved about $150 on a $1500 computer. :p

LethalWolfe
Jan 31, 2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by dstorey


my original point still stands up as even if you can keep the same case, that costs what? 20 quid? your replacing the motherboard etc anyway after your pc reaches the end of its processor family so whats the price of a case off a new computer, its hardly enough to make a difference. Plus whos to say the form factor isn't gonna change again in a few years. Its still as cheap and easier to buy a new machine in the pc world after your computer is maxed out and a few years old.


I was just correcting the misinformation you'd recieved about mobo form factors changing w/chip lines. Nothing more, nothingless.


Lethal

medea
Jan 31, 2003, 03:29 PM
man it seems like all you ever do is complain about Apple so just move on to a pc and drop it already. but what makes you think its so easy to upgrade pc's and not macs, there are plenty of upgrade kits available for all macs including the cube and absolutely no pc manufacturer sells pc upgrade kits so why should apple. yeah apple likes to make people happy about buying a mac, but they are also out to make money like any company, oh and have you never heard of companies like gateway using proprietary hardware?

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 31, 2003, 04:02 PM
Hey redeye you need to back off the gunja and realize that a powermac is the easiest thing to upgrade! Climb out from under that rock! You can upgrade a powermac so many ways iam not even going to try to count!

rEd Eye
Feb 10, 2003, 01:33 AM
I think you all need to get your heads out of your asses and look around you for once.You obviously don't know a ****ing thing about building and upgrading a PC,and even less about how Apple is squeezing every last dollar possible from you for your disposable mac.
btw,audio production is my gig,and I know all about the need for raw horsepower,stabilty and configurability!
I think I'll just keep the success of my PC build to myself,and hope that someday someone high on the Apple ladder learns to appreciate the value of selling customers exactly what they want to buy!
One less dollar for Apple,one more dollar for someone else.
Yes,I typed this from my disposable,overpriced and unconfigurable preset of a dual 1Ghz G4!

A good day to you.
Wait till you see my switch ad!
I know this stoned girl who used to use a mac...
lol

Nipsy
Feb 10, 2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by rEd Eye
...and hope that someday someone high on the Apple ladder learns to appreciate the value of selling customers exactly what they want to buy!
One less dollar for Apple,one more dollar for someone else.

Ummm, perhaps you're the one who doesn't get it.

Apple tried this (during their darkest days), with Perfomas, PowerBooks, Duos, PowerMacs, etc. each of which was offered in 2-30 different combinations.

The end result was consumers were confused, and each machine had to be custom built.

Great if you're a geek...horrible if you're a company.

Now that Apple has a slimmer (although growing again) product line, in simple combos, they're able to process inventory more effectively, which means more profit for them, and lower prices for you.

Remember that a IIfx cost $12000 198* dollars, a Performa 466 cost $1699 199* dollars, a PowerBook 180 cost $3800 199* dollars, etc. Now you can have a consumer machine for 1k, or a Workstation for 3k, with few iterations in between.

This has allowed Apple to clear their HORRIBLE channel problems, and perform better financially in these tough times than others.

And if you're still not satisfied, just build your own...

rEd Eye
Feb 10, 2003, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by Nipsy


Ummm, perhaps you're the one who doesn't get it.

Oh well,at least I'm happy in my ignorance.

I have always had a different take on things than the general population would appear to,I guess.
I don't have any right way or wrong way to push here,my original(if somewhat heated)intention was to stimulate a discussion in regards to apple's appeal as a product that I one could build and upgrade to personal taste as opposed to the open market PC approach.
What I'm really saying here is that as a technical computer user, I wish I could buy an apple mobo and cpu at competitive prices and buy the rest of the components as I saw fit from whichever reseller had a fair competitive price for the components that I wanted,or reuse the apple branded components that I already own.This would really help motivate me towards continuing my investment of having been a mac user fof the three past years.Apparently this isn't something that will ever happen,so I am simply going to move on to that which suits my needs best.
I find it hard to believe that anyone here wouldn't jump at the oportunity to do the same themselves.How could you turn down an offer to buy a new mobo and cpu for you mac as opposed to buying the whole kit again how about saving $200 by putting your mac in a plain white box and using your old keyboard?How about buying the same name brand HD that is default with your mac for 60% of what apple sells it for?
Am I so backwards in my thought process here?

Nipsy
Feb 10, 2003, 04:30 AM
Auto Analogy #8790653 follows

The thing is, Apple is not a commodity product.

You can go to Pep Boys, and buy a new V8 for a Ford, but not a new V8 for a MBZ. Ford is a commodity product. MBZ is not.

MBZ makes far fewer cars than Ford, and charges a healthy premium, and a healthy margin. They integrate parts and service into the whole equation. Ford makes a load of cars, and makes much smaller margins on them, both during initial sale and repair.

A Ford Mustang is undeniably faster than all but the upper crust of the MBZ line, but does not offer the same quality experience.

I personally will always pay the premium for the MBZ, because I feel it is worth it. Even though the Ford is cheaper to own, to repair (upgrade), etc., I know it won't bring me the same joy as the MBZ.

Like MBZ, Apple relies on tight control of its products (whole and in part) to thrive. They are not commodity items.

While most of us here are skilled enough to build a Mac from parts and obtain the 'feel' apple wants us to have, the masses are not. While I would buy a 'chassis' computer happily, it makes no sense for Apple to sell one.

Apple cannot market OS X as being as sturdy as they do now, if it were being used on 'homebrew machines', as inevitably, many would be unreliable.

There's a thread out there about Apple being a luxury brand which I ranted in for a while that further explains these premises (sans car analogy), and why they make no sense for the company (even though they'd be great for geeks).

kiwi_the_iwik
Feb 10, 2003, 05:07 AM
Gee, rEd Eye -

I've got a G4 Cube - standing tall at a mere 8". Now, I've got literally dozens of upgrade options available.


I can:

*put in a bigger Hard Drive

*install an Airport system

*upgrade the CPU to a dual 1.2Ghz G4 Processor

*boost the graphics card to a higher model, including a GeForce3, or (it's been reported on a few sites) even a Radeon 9000

*add a 23" LCD monitor

*charge the RAM up to 1.5Gb

*install a slot-loading SuperDrive in place of my DVD drive


I mean - how fast do you really want to make your computer? Cray speed?

Sheesh...
:rolleyes:

rEd Eye
Feb 10, 2003, 05:59 AM
Somehow I get the feeling no one has heard a single word I've said....:rolleyes:

Would you like your orange peeled?
Yes,apple juice would be nice thank you.........

rEd Eye
Feb 10, 2003, 06:06 AM
I've owned two G4's over the last three years,built two PC's and purchased one insanely configured,affordable non name brand Sager notebook that rocks.
Isn't it possible that I could have developed a valid viewpoint in regards to the configurability issues that the mac suffers by now?

bigizzy
Feb 10, 2003, 06:14 AM
Well I agree. I as a user should be able to buy Apple branded Motherboard and CPU and should be able to buy the rest of the stuff from the open market to assemble my own Mac. Of-course I would still have to purchase OS X from apple; conversly I could very well decide to run Linux on it.

What this does is gives the users the choice of parts and also ensures that apple actually sells more Hardware. Considering that Hardware is their main business they really ought to look at how they can increase the sales of that and I think this is one way they can.

The mac users seem to be misunderstanding this for various different models from apple; on the other hand what I am saying
is that apple keep a lean line of Apple Boxes but at the same time sell just the Motherboard and CPU to end users directly too .

Nipsy
Feb 10, 2003, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by rEd Eye
I've owned two G4's over the last three years,built two PC's and purchased one insanely configured,affordable non name brand Sager notebook that rocks.
Isn't it possible that I could have developed a valid viewpoint in regards to the configurability issues that the mac suffers by now?

Well, I've Got a primary G4 which has a 8 year old SCSI scanner, three displays, 2 GB of RAM, a 480GB ATA 133 RAID, a no name CDR, a Pioneer DVRA05, a remote control, countless USB devices, and used to have a dual channel U160 SCSI ubėr RAID.

That's pretty damned upgraded.

I've also got a PC tower which still chokes on some of the NAME BRAND cards I put in it.

That choking is what Apple prevents by not setting users loose with a MoBo and processor. As a geek, I'd love it, you would too...but it would lead to a bunch of idiots building Macs and asking why their ISA soundcards don't work.

So, aside from being a loss leader financially for AAPL, it would generate negative mindshare for Apple, and that's why you won't see it.

Furthermore, instead of gutting my computer every time a new processor comes out, I just buy a new one, move my RAID, and sell the old one. Costs me $400 every 6-9 mos., similar to a mobo/proc swap on a PC.

So, while its a neat idea for a few geeks, its a bad idea for a company, and because resale value is so high, you can effectively upgrade everything, and sell the old box for the same cost as upgrading a PC.

Nipsy
Feb 10, 2003, 06:24 AM
I'm still waiting for someone to point me to a link to buy an affordable Dell/HP/Compaq Mobo/proc. combo.

You can buy mobos from all comp. companies (Apple included) as repair parts. They are NOT cheap.

DavidFDM
Feb 10, 2003, 06:38 AM
I have to weigh in here.

I bought a Beige G3 Minitower that I vowed to take it to its logical conclusion.

I added:
. . . a larger hard drive
. . . upped the VRAM to 6MB
. . . added a second video card
. . . added a FireWire/USB card
. . . addded a CD-RW
. . . maxed the RAM
. . . replaced the processor via ZIF

After that there really was nothing I could do to my little FrankenMac but I did appreciate that I could replace the processor. Now I have a Quicksilver G4 whose processor I will not be able to replace without sacrificing my AGP slot. Grrr. This annoys me. I should be able to do this like my old Beige G3. I believe in getting all the usable life out of a computer before it becomes ready for a hand-me-down to my family or ready for eBay. It makes sense in a Reduce-Reuse-Recycle way of thinking; not so much when you are looking at sales figures.

Most Macs can be upgraded with the basics but the processor is the most important and I think Apple should bring back the ZIF. However, it may be that the dual processor board designs do not allow for processor upgrades to be installed by the end user.

Hope all is well with everyone,

David

LethalWolfe
Feb 10, 2003, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by rEd Eye
I've owned two G4's over the last three years,built two PC's and purchased one insanely configured,affordable non name brand Sager notebook that rocks.
Isn't it possible that I could have developed a valid viewpoint in regards to the configurability issues that the mac suffers by now?


Instead of comparing your homebuilt rigs to Apple why don't you go configure a Dell, HP or Gateway and compare that to Apple. Prebuilt vs. Prebuilt.

I've built 3 home PCs and 1 video editing workstation in the past 2 years. I purchased my first Mac ever in April. I'd much rather have a less customizable, but better running Mac as my NLE than my completly customizable, but not quite as good PC.

Anyway, at least in terms of video editing (don't know 'bout audio) there's no such thing as a completly customizable rig. Go look at prosumer and better capture cards and you'll see that they are only approved to work w/a handful of mobo's, video cards, chipsets and OSs. And the really fun part about that is installing a dozen or so drivers, updates, and/or patches in the correct order during the install (or re-install if you are ever so unlucky). And the higher you get up the foodchain the smaller the approved hardware lists get. Avid, for example, only have one type of PC workstation approved to work with their harddware and software. Gee. I wonder why.

For low end ***** building yer own rig, IMO, can be a blast. But for serious work (film/video in my case) I'd much rather buy a machine that has hardware and software tested, and preferabley designed, to work together (be it PC or Mac).

Sometimes simplicity is better.

If you don't like what one company or platform has to offer then don't buy it. I'm pretty sure everyone here "gets" what yer saying, they just don't care 'cause it's not a "problem" that's important to them.


Lethal