Afghan man faces death after leaving Islam for Christianity

[leekohler]

Is this what we went to Afghanistan for? I'm majorly disappointed. I thought the Taliban were gone. Apparently not. What a bunch of idiots. Wake up, kids- separation of church and state is a GOOD idea. Hmm... maybe the whacko fundamentalists here in the US will wake up. One can dream, right?

KABUL, Afghanistan -- This story contains corrected material, published March 22, 2006.

(The headline as published has been corrected in this text.)

Abdul Rahman told his family he was a Christian. He told the neighbors, bringing shame upon his home. But then he told the police, and he could no longer be ignored.

Now, in a major test of Afghanistan's fledgling court system, Rahman, 42, faces the death penalty for abandoning Islam for Christianity. Prosecutors say he should die. So do his family, his jailers, even the judge. Rahman has no lawyer. Jail officials refused to let anyone see Rahman on Monday, despite permission granted by the country's justice minister.

"We will cut him into little pieces," said Hosnia Wafayosofi, who works at the jail, as she made a cutting motion with her hands. "There's no need to see him."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0603210143mar21,1,938137.story

[Airforce]

Is this what we went to Afghanistan for? I'm majorly disappointed. I thought the Taliban were gone. Apparently not. What a bunch of idiots. Wake up, kids- separation of church and state is a GOOD idea.

That's the Muslim world for you.

[leekohler]

That's the Muslim world for you.

THIS is what we sent our military to protect? You know what? I say we get out of that s***hole now. ******* them.

[zimv20]

That's the Muslim world for you.
you didn't get bush's memo -- now there are good and bad muslims. you're still using the old talking point.

plus one point for mindless acceptance, but minus one point for being behind the curve.

[leekohler]

tell me how i should avoid the conclusion that you and your attitude are why this country is so ****ed in the first place.

Tell me why we should even be supporting these people. Disgusting.

[Ugg]

That's the Muslim world for you.

No, that's Afghanistan. Remember, the country we freed from the Taliban and then did nothing. No post war plan, no effort to rebuild the country. Remember?

Isn't Afghanistan the country where we funded Osama bin Laden along with a whole bunch of other Islamists? We actually wanted him to succeed and we taught him a whole bunch about how to beat those evil commies. OOps, he learned his lesson too well and realized that the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

What we ended up doing in Afghanistan was validating the extremists positions on stoning women, public beheadings, and a whole bunch of other nasty things that are rightfully outlawed in the west. Oh, well, at least the Soviets didn't win and that's all that really matters isn't it?

I in no way condone what they're doing but anyone who is so blind to not see that we are in no small part responsible for the continued repression in Afghanistan has a woefully short memory.

Have you read about the woman in Pakistan that was gang raped as punishment for something her family did? Where's the outrage there? Ah, I get it, the case in Afghanistan is about christianity.

[Airforce]

you didn't get bush's memo -- now there are good and bad muslims. you're still using the old talking point.

plus one point for mindless acceptance, but minus one point for being behind the curve.

OK, the Muslims over there. Disagree? Let me walk around that country announcing I'm Jewish. Lets see how long I last.

[Airforce]

Have you read about the woman in Pakistan that was gang raped as punishment for something her family did? Where's the outrage there? Ah, I get it, the case in Afghanistan is about christianity.

I sure have. More reason to hate Muslim countries over there.

[EricNau]

It's been going on for 1000's of years, and it's not going to change - no matter how many bombs we drop or how many troops we send over.

If some people just realized this ahead of time, the US could have saved themselves a lot of money and time.

[Ugg]

I sure have. More reason to hate Muslim countries over there.

Maybe you need to start redirecting your hate to the countries that support repressive regimes like Musharraf's or Mubarak's in Egypt. Hmmm, who supports them the most? It wouldn't be the US would it?

[leekohler]

It's been going on for 1000's of years, and it's not going to change - no matter how many bombs we drop or how many troops we send over.

If some people just realized this ahead of time, the US could have saved themselves a lot of money and time.

Fine. Then any US forces there should leave right now.

[Airforce]

Maybe you need to start redirecting your hate to the countries that support repressive regimes like Musharraf's or Mubarak's in Egypt. Hmmm, who supports them the most? It wouldn't be the US would it?

No thanks, I'm perfectly happy directing my hate toward the Muslims like the ones in the story above.

[leekohler]

Maybe you need to start redirecting your hate to the countries that support repressive regimes like Musharraf's or Mubarak's in Egypt. Hmmm, who supports them the most? It wouldn't be the US would it?

Yes, it would. So let's leave.

On that note, here's our wimpy President's reply:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0603220048mar22,1,3100831.story

AFGHANISTAN -- The Bush administration issued a subdued appeal Tuesday to Afghanistan to permit a Christian convert on trial for his life to practice his faith in the predominantly Muslim country.

The State Department, however, did not urge the U.S. ally in the war on terrorism to terminate the trial. Officials said the Bush administration did not want to interfere with Afghanistan's sovereignty.

Well, if we don't want to interfere, then let's get the hell OUT!

[Heb1228]

It appears that pressure from Western countries may be having an impact. I hope its not too late.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/world/main1428951.shtml

"We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person," he told The Associated Press.

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

"Doctors must examine him," he said. "If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him. He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped." ...

A Western diplomat in Kabul and a human rights advocate — both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter — said the government was desperately searching for a way to drop the case because of the reaction it has caused.


I wonder if the 'mental illness' excuse is President Karzai's way of trying to save Rahman's life and save face in his country as well.

Some Danish politicians seem to be advocating removing the Rahman from Afghan custody forcibly if necessary:

http://agora.blogsome.com/2006/03/22/danish-politicians-back-rahman-to-the-hilt/

The government must act on this matter and show that Denmark is at the forefront in the fight for Human Rights and international rule of law. That is why we are in Afghanistan. If necessary, the Danish forces in country must liberate Abdul Rahman and offer him asylum in Denmark. This case underlines the need for Sharia law to be fought wherever it is found.”

[leekohler]

It appears that pressure from Western countries may be having an impact. I hope its not too late.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/world/main1428951.shtml



I wonder if the 'mental illness' excuse is President Karzai's way of trying to save Rahman's life and save face in his country as well.

Some Danish politicians seem to be advocating removing the Rahman from Afghan custody forcibly if necessary:

http://agora.blogsome.com/2006/03/22/danish-politicians-back-rahman-to-the-hilt/

Wow- so Denmark has to be the voice of reason? I give up, man. Do we stand for anything anymore?

[Ugg]

It appears that pressure from Western countries may be having an impact. I hope its not too late.



I wonder if the 'mental illness' excuse is President Karzai's way of trying to save Rahman's life and save face in his country as well.

Some Danish politicians seem to be advocating removing the Rahman from Afghan custody forcibly if necessary:



Let's hope he's found insane, it's probably the only way to reconcile this situation.

[Atlasland]

Do we stand for anything anymore?

Killing poor people for oil?

[Heb1228]

Let's hope he's found insane, it's probably the only way to reconcile this situation.
Since its become so high-profile, I'm sure that it would be pretty apparent to everyone that the 'insanity' excuse would be a smokescreen. I'm hoping for more than that. Muslims who convert to Christianity in many of these countries are often disowned by their families and friends. I would like an outcome in this case, since its becoming such a visible example, that lets Afghans know there are no legal repercussions to any religious conversion. The personal loss is bad enough.

[Heb1228]

Wow- so Denmark has to be the voice of reason? I give up, man. Do we stand for anything anymore?
I agree with you. Bush looks like a sell-out on this one. (My only hope is that he has the back channels open trying to make something happen and didn't want to say anything publicly that would jeopardize that possibility. But that's pure speculation.)

I agree that it is frustrating that we put all that effort into Afghanistan and now we see something like this... but remember we're trying to change a thousand years of culture in just a couple years' time. Its going to be slow, but our presence there and influence will hopefully be able to turn this situation to a better end than what it would have been otherwise.

[Ugg]

Since its become so high-profile, I'm sure that it would be pretty apparent to everyone that the 'insanity' excuse would be a smokescreen. I'm hoping for more than that. Muslims who convert to Christianity in many of these countries are often disowned by their families and friends. I would like an outcome in this case, since its becoming such a visible example, that lets Afghans know there are no legal repercussions to any religious conversion. The personal loss is bad enough.

You are right but at this point in time it would be better smother this case in insanity than fan the flames of fanaticism in the west.

Some christians are also disowned by their families for turning their back on "the true church" whatever that may be. Mormons are renowned for it, and it wasn't that long ago in the west that marriages between christian sects were actively discouraged.

It would be nice if a directive could be issued by the local immans and mullahs but unfortunately, the decentralized nature of Islam and the fact that it is fractured into so many sects makes that an impossibility. Especially at this point in history when so many moderate Muslims feel their religion and way of life are under attack by the west.

I hope this guy gets away with his life but even if he does it'll be a lesson that many Islamists will spread far and wide. Religion can really mess up a person's life, can't it.

[solvs]

Bush looks like a sell-out on this one.
Wow, people really are starting to turn on him aren't they? Never thought I'd see you say something like that. I actually did hope he had some kinda backdoor deal in place too, but since we're still hearing of this story, that scenario seems less and less likely.

As for Afghanistan, not only did we not finish what we started, we barely started in the first place. I had friends who were sent from there to Iraq before they even had a chance to settle in and do much of anything there. Regardless of what you may have heard, the fundamentalists still have complete control over the region, and that isn't likely to change anytime soon. This is why I'm harsh on extremism disguising itself as religion. Not because I hate religion, because I don't, but because it's too easily perverted and exploited. This has nothing to do with faith, it's about control. They can't have one of their own converting, so he becomes a traitor. I hope the neocons in this country think about things like this when they call liberals and those who aren't Christians things like traitor and unAmerican when they bring up the need for religious freedom, even though I know they won't. This is exactly what can happen when things go too far in a theocracy.

And on an ironic note, Mohammad was a Christian.

[takao]

on the other side in germany he minister for foreign politics has to deny that they haven't talked/used a pull out of the german troops as pressure against kabul _yet_

[DerChef]

LATEST NEWS:

Just heard today

Case might be dropped as they say the accused is insane and not fit to stand trial.;)

Still get to keep their extreme ideas of Sharia Law/ Point of principle and dont incurr international wrath
:cool:

[Dont Hurt Me]

This is the main reason for the problems in the mideast, a religion of jihad, hate and murder. Its why the Iraq thing was a waste of time money and lives. Where Islam goes Extreme Islam goes with it. In the year 2006 we have primitives who want to murder in the name of their stupid religion. Man is a primitive mess and here is yet more proof.

[mactastic]

That's the Muslim world for you.
That's the military mindset for you.

[Airforce]

That's the military mindset for you.

Well no ****. The people that actually see these people in person have a bit of a better picture than you sitting in front of a TV , watching the news.

[jelloshotsrule]

Well no ****. The people that actually see these people in person have a bit of a better picture than you sitting in front of a TV , watching the news.

i won't lie, i don't get your point.

are you one of these "people that actually see these people in person"? who are "these people" anyways? muslims? are you saying that no one else besides those in the military see muslims?

THIS JUST IN!

muslims do not require night vision military goggles or wearing camoflage to see. and what's more, they exist in our own united states of america! i know people like you would prefer they stayed where they belong (ie, in the desert, far away from you, or maybe better dead???) but perhaps i should go back to sitting in front of a TV, watching the news.

[Airforce]

i won't lie, i don't get your point.

are you one of these "people that actually see these people in person"? who are "these people" anyways? muslims? are you saying that no one else besides those in the military see muslims?

THIS JUST IN!

muslims do not require night vision military goggles or wearing camoflage to see. and what's more, they exist in our own united states of america! i know people like you would prefer they stayed where they belong (ie, in the desert, far away from you, or maybe better dead???) but perhaps i should go back to sitting in front of a TV, watching the news.

Read the thread from start to finish.

THIS JUST IN!

We've been talking about Muslims in the countries like Afghanistan. :rolleyes:

[jelloshotsrule]

yeah, i realize that. so they are inherently different? are christians in china different from the ones in the US?

you also did say "that's the muslim world for you." i forget if "world" means just afghanistan and places like it, or actually all of the nations on earth. hm

regardless, how do "the people that see these people in person" relate to the story exactly? the soldiers there know these people are barbaric, whereas joe american doesn't because they only see it on tv?

[leekohler]

yeah, i realize that. so they are inherently different? are christians in china different from the ones in the US?

you also did say "that's the muslim world for you." i forget if "world" means just afghanistan and places like it, or actually all of the nations on earth. hm

regardless, how do "the people that see these people in person" relate to the story exactly? the soldiers there know these people are barbaric, whereas joe american doesn't because they only see it on tv?

How long is you guy's little p***ing contest going to continue? :rolleyes:

[jelloshotsrule]

How long is you guy's little p***ing contest going to continue? :rolleyes:

call it what you will, you're free to ignore it :rolleyes:

[XNine]

Where Islam goes Extreme Islam goes with it. In the year 2006 we have primitives who want to murder in the name of their stupid religion.

Agreed. You cannot have one without the other. These people are ****ing nuts. This is why I say mankind needs to abolish all religion. Burn every holy site, church, temple, etc. to the ground. Religion is the root of all evil. (or was that money? or was that women? :confused: )

[bousozoku]

This is the main reason for the problems in the mideast, a religion of jihad, hate and murder. Its why the Iraq thing was a waste of time money and lives. Where Islam goes Extreme Islam goes with it. In the year 2006 we have primitives who want to murder in the name of their stupid religion. Man is a primitive mess and here is yet more proof.

I think you'll find that Christianity is just as bad.

Anyway, I think that the hate has gone long enough in this thread.