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Sayhey
Mar 27, 2006, 02:01 AM
The Founders Never Imagined a Bush Administration

By Joyce Appleby and Gary Hart

Joyce Appleby is professor emerita of history at UCLA and co-director of the History New Service. Gary Hart is a former U.S. senator and Wirth Chair in the Graduate School of Public Affairs at the University of Colorado, Denver.


George W. Bush and his most trusted advisers, Richard B. Cheney and Donald H. Rumsfeld, entered office determined to restore the authority of the presidency. Five years and many decisions later, they've pushed the expansion of presidential power so far that we now confront a constitutional crisis.

Relying on legal opinions from Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and Professor John Yoo, then working in the White House, Bush has insisted that there can be no limits to the power of the commander-in-chief in time of war. More recently the president has claimed that laws relating to domestic spying and the torture of detainees do not apply to him. His interpretation has produced a devilish conundrum.

President Bush has given Commander-in-Chief Bush unlimited wartime authority. But the "war on terror" is more a metaphor than a fact. Terrorism is a method, not an ideology; terrorists are criminals, not warriors. No peace treaty can possibly bring an end to the fight against far-flung terrorists. The emergency powers of the president during this "war" can now extend indefinitely, at the pleasure of the president and at great threat to the liberties and rights guaranteed us under the Constitution.

When President Nixon covertly subverted checks and balances 30 years ago during the Vietnam War, Congress passed laws making clear that presidents were not to engage in unconstitutional behavior in the interest of "national security." Then Congress was reacting to violation of Fourth Amendment protections against searches and seizures without judicial warrants establishing "probable cause," attempts to assassinate foreign leaders and surveillance of American citizens.

Now the Iraq war is being used to justify similar abuses. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, providing constitutional means to carry out surveillance, and the Intelligence Identification Protection Act, protecting the identity of undercover intelligence agents, have both been violated by an administration seeking to restore "the legitimate authority of the presidency," as Cheney puts it.

The presidency possesses no power not granted to it under the Constitution. The powers the current administration seeks in its "war on terror" are not granted under the Constitution. Indeed, they are explicitly prohibited by acts of Congress.

The Founding Fathers, who always come to mind when the Constitution is in danger, anticipated just such a possibility. Writing in the Federalist Papers, James Madison defined tyranny as the concentration of powers in one branch of the government.

"The great security against a gradual concentration of the several powers in the same department," Madison wrote in Federalist 51, "consists in giving to those who administer each department, the necessary constitutional means, and personal motives, to resist encroachments of the others."

Warming to his subject, Madison continued, "Ambition must be made to counteract ambition;" the interest of the office holders must "be connected with the constitutional rights of the place."

Recognizing that he was making an appeal to interest over ideals, he concluded that it "may be a reflection of human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government." "But what," Madison asked, "is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary."

Madison's solution to the concentration of powers that lead to tyranny relied upon either Congress or the Supreme Court to check the overreaching of a president. In our present crisis, Congress has been supine in the face of the president's grab for unconstitutional, unlimited power, and no case is working its way towards a Supreme Court judgment.

If Madison's reliance on the ambition of other office holders has failed us, we need to look elsewhere. Can what Thomas Jefferson called the "common sense and good judgment of the American people" help us now? In the past, they have been a critical last resort when our leaders endangered the constitutional checks and balances that have made us the world's oldest democracy. But first the public must wake up to this constitutional crisis.History News Service (http://hnn.us/articles/23297.html)



Thomas Veil
Mar 27, 2006, 07:40 AM
Good article, but that last paragraph asks a very good question. Polls are showing that people are waking up, but I still wonder about two things. (1) Are they waking up because they truly understand the constitutional implications, or are they just "tired of the war"? And (2), will their displeasure translate into a clear rejection of neoconservative "policies" this November?

XNine
Mar 27, 2006, 10:46 AM
Good article, but that last paragraph asks a very good question. Polls are showing that people are waking up, but I still wonder about two things. (1) Are they waking up because they truly understand the constitutional implications, or are they just "tired of the war"? And (2), will their displeasure translate into a clear rejection of neoconservative "policies" this November?

Honestly Thomas, do you think that we can convince the majority of the South (MS, LA, KY, TX, etc) that voting for someone who will take over from where Bush left us will screw us even more? I doubt it. These people voted for him after the first term he started screwing us. As long as it's a good ol' boy with strong religious convictions, they'll vote for him.

I think, for the most part, those who are ignorant of the true happenings, are "tired of the war."

I'll be honest, I didn't vote last time. Not that it would have mattered if I did anyway, but I found neither candidate to be less evil than the other. However, when people are like "Look at what Bush is doing!" I can throw my hands up and say "Hey, I didn't vote for him." I won't vote until there's someone worth my vote.

Sayhey
Mar 27, 2006, 11:21 AM
I won't vote until there's someone worth my vote.

And you blame the present mess on the people in the South who did vote? I understand frustration with the present system, but let's not make a virtue out of not participating.

Thomas Veil
Mar 27, 2006, 11:43 AM
And you blame the present mess on the people in the South who did vote? I understand frustration with the present system, but let's not make a virtue out of not participating.I'll just agree without elaborating. I don't want to detour this into a debate on why one should or shouldn't vote.

XNine
Mar 27, 2006, 11:57 AM
And you blame the present mess on the people in the South who did vote? I understand frustration with the present system, but let's not make a virtue out of not participating.

Considering Kerry needed 3,012,497 votes to just TIE Bush (not to mention Florida's polls not being rigged), yeah, my ONE vote would have counted. :rolleyes:

Though I agree, let's not make this topic about MY voting habits.

I still think the South, and well, people in general need to not pick a side because of religious beliefs, but on how our future president plans to bring us out of debt, reduce taxes, and work for us instead of against us by maintaining his duties and respect for the law. Like I said, Bush got the South (and just about every "christian") to completely back him because he's a good ol' boy and a God-fearing Christian. Needless to say they didn't look at it like "Oh, you want this war in Iraw to last the next 5 centuries... okay."

Thomas Veil
Mar 27, 2006, 01:29 PM
Considering Kerry needed 3,012,497 votes to just TIE Bush (not to mention Florida's polls not being rigged), yeah, my ONE vote would have counted. :rolleyes: Actually, 130,000 votes in my state would've made John Kerry president. That is the shame Ohio will have to live with.

solvs
Mar 27, 2006, 05:54 PM
Actually, 130,000 votes in my state would've made John Kerry president. That is the shame Ohio will have to live with.
And for those saying he wasn't much better, myself included, he couldn't have been much worse.

jefhatfield
Apr 7, 2006, 11:51 PM
the title of the thread says it all

constitutional law 101 will show anybody that bush definitely did not take this class :)

zimv20
Apr 8, 2006, 12:20 AM
this thread seems as good a place as any to post this bit from the nation (http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/1575510;_ylt=Ai1q9PpYAhbcO.x2ejT3MhcDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTBhcmljNmVhBHNlYwNtcm5ld3M-):


So there was Bush in Charlotte, North Carolina last night--for one of these newfangled, unscripted forums. That's where 61-year old Charlotte real estate broker Harry Taylor stood up to the President.

It's worth repeating what Taylor had to say: "While I listen to you talk about freedom, I see you assert your right to tap my telephone, to arrest me and hold me without charges, to try to preclude me from breathing clean air and drinking clean water and eating safe food. If I were a woman, you'd like to restrict my opportunity to make a choice... about whether I can abort a pregnancy... What I wanted to say to you is that--in my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed of, nor more frightened, by my leadership in Washington, including the presidency. And I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and the grace to be ashamed of youself... I also want to say I really appreciate the courtesy of allowing me to speak... That is part of what this country is about."

scem0
Apr 8, 2006, 12:29 AM
We need more Harry Taylors. Lots more Harry Taylors.

Good Article.

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mactastic
Apr 8, 2006, 12:35 AM
It's too bad you didn't post Bush's reply to the guy too. I caught it on the telly a couple days ago. It wasn't very direct, to be charitable.

zimv20
Apr 8, 2006, 12:48 AM
sadly, the reply wasn't in the article. i wonder if i can find it over at whitehouse.gov...

zimv20
Apr 8, 2006, 12:51 AM
found a little more info here (http://www.newsobserver.com/114/story/426267.html)...


"While I listen to you talk about freedom," said Harry Taylor, 61, a commercial real estate broker, "I see you assert your right to tap my telephone, to arrest me and hold me without charges, to try to preclude me from breathing clean air and drinking clean water and eating safe food ..."

Bush broke in with a quip: "I'm not your favorite guy. Go on, what's your question?"

Taylor then said he "never felt more ashamed of, nor frightened by, my leadership in Washington, including the presidency."

Boos came from the audience of about 800 at Central Piedmont Community College.

"No, wait a sec -- let him speak," Bush said.

The president, in his reply, focused on the criticism of the phone surveillance steps he took after the 9/11 attacks, saying his lawyers said they were constitutional and adding that they were needed to help prevent another attack.

"I'm not going to apologize for what I did on the terrorist surveillance program," Bush said.

After the event, Taylor, who said he is an unaffiliated voter, told reporters he was not satisfied with Bush's answers.

zimv20
Apr 8, 2006, 12:55 AM
a-ha! (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060406-3.html)


Q You never stop talking about freedom, and I appreciate that. But while I listen to you talk about freedom, I see you assert your right to tap my telephone, to arrest me and hold me without charges, to try to preclude me from breathing clean air and drinking clean water and eating safe food. If I were a woman, you'd like to restrict my opportunity to make a choice and decision about whether I can abort a pregnancy on my own behalf. You are --

THE PRESIDENT: I'm not your favorite guy. Go ahead. (Laughter and applause.) Go on, what's your question?

Q Okay, I don't have a question. What I wanted to say to you is that I -- in my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed of, nor more frightened by my leadership in Washington, including the presidency, by the Senate, and --

AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Booo!

THE PRESIDENT: No, wait a sec -- let him speak.

Q And I would hope -- I feel like despite your rhetoric, that compassion and common sense have been left far behind during your administration, and I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and the grace to be ashamed of yourself inside yourself. And I also want to say I really appreciate the courtesy of allowing me to speak what I'm saying to you right now. That is part of what this country is about.

THE PRESIDENT: It is, yes. (Applause.)

Q And I know that this doesn't come welcome to most of the people in this room, but I do appreciate that.

THE PRESIDENT: Appreciate --

Q I don't have a question, but I just wanted to make that comment to you.

THE PRESIDENT: I appreciate it, thank you. Let me --

Q Can I ask a question?

THE PRESIDENT: I'm going to start off with what you first said, if you don't mind, you said that I tap your phones -- I think that's what you said. You tapped your phone -- I tapped your phones. Yes. No, that's right. Yes, no, let me finish.

I'd like to describe that decision I made about protecting this country. You can come to whatever conclusion you want. The conclusion is I'm not going to apologize for what I did on the terrorist surveillance program, and I'll tell you why. We were accused in Washington, D.C. of not connecting the dots, that we didn't do everything we could to protect you or others from the attack. And so I called in the people responsible for helping to protect the American people and the homeland. I said, is there anything more we could do.

And there -- out of this national -- NSA came the recommendation that it would make sense for us to listen to a call outside the country, inside the country from al Qaeda or suspected al Qaeda in order to have real-time information from which to possibly prevent an attack. I thought that made sense, so long as it was constitutional. Now, you may not agree with the constitutional assessment given to me by lawyers -- and we've got plenty of them in Washington -- but they made this assessment that it was constitutional for me to make that decision.

I then, sir, took that decision to members of the United States Congress from both political parties and briefed them on the decision that was made in order to protect the American people. And so members of both parties, both chambers, were fully aware of a program intended to know whether or not al Qaeda was calling in or calling out of the country. It seems like -- to make sense, if we're at war, we ought to be using tools necessary within the Constitution, on a very limited basis, a program that's reviewed constantly to protect us.

Now, you and I have a different -- of agreement on what is needed to be protected. But you said, would I apologize for that? The answer -- answer is, absolutely not. (Applause.)

Q Mr. President, I was raised on a ranch in New Mexico. And my heroes have always been cowboys.

i left that last line in there because, well.... i'm a writer and *i* couldn't have written that!

mactastic
Apr 8, 2006, 01:21 AM
Excellent! Thanks for digging that up.

solvs
Apr 8, 2006, 01:47 AM
If they were after terrorists when they did the wiretapping, why didn't they just get warrants? That's the question. I don't see what the problem is here, what he did was clearly wrong and unconstitutional.