To any Citizens of Great Britain: Thank You

[patrick0brien]

-Hear ye

I'm not sure if it's the scotch, or a moment of clarity, but having just seen the [recap] of the joint news conference between Tony Blair and George W. Bush, I felt I needed to say something, that hopefully trancends these difficult times we all seem to live in.

We citizens of the United States (some call us "Americans") owe you thanks. You may not have been the only voice in the settlement and creation of my nation, but you were the loudest.

Now, 226 years and a number of months later (some fellow Mac user would call me on saying 227 years) and two world wars we shared, we still find that we are brothers in this place.

Yes, Americans have been accused of arrogance, but so have you.

Who really cares?

It's actions that speak, and our nations, one borne of the other, are the true leaders of the planet. And I'm sure others, perhaps Russia, and even China will soon join us.

No nation stands alone. And I for one American, appreciates you. For my nation wouldn't and couldn't exist without you and yours.

If you'll excuse me, I have a bottle of Glenlivet calling me. Yes, I'm of Irish heritage :D

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
Yes, Americans have been accused of arrogance, but so have you.

Who really cares?
Classic :)

To all Britons: Your prime minister is a lap dog! Vote him out!

[Falleron]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-Hear ye

I'm not sure if it's the scotch, or a moment of clarity, but having just seen the [recap] of the joint news conference between Tony Blair and George W. Bush, I felt I needed to say something, that hopefully trancends these difficult times we all seem to live in.

We citizens of the United States (some call us "Americans") owe you thanks. You may not have been the only voice in the settlement and creation of my nation, but you were the loudest.

Now, 226 years and a number of months later (some fellow Mac user would call me on saying 227 years) and two world wars we shared, we still find that we are brothers in this place.

Yes, Americans have been accused of arrogance, but so have you.

Who really cares?

It's actions that speak, and our nations, one borne of another, are the true leaders of the planet. And I'm sure others, perhaps Russia, and even China will soon join us.

No nation stands alone. And I for one American, appreciates you. For my nation wouldn't and couldn't exist without you and yours.

If you'll excuse me, I have a bottle of Glenlivet calling me. Yes, I'm of Irish heritage :D
Hello, UK calling! I think its good that America and the UK are standing together on this. Nobody wants war, but, I cant see a way around it!

He is not a lap dog! He is right, we have had people being arrested because traces of chemical weapons have been found! They were planning an attack which was stopped. Another plan was foiled in france to attack the UK! The point is, that the world has to stop "mad" people getting weapons of mass destruction!

[MyLeftNut]

Does that include Dubya?

[iGav]

I support and back our PM 100%...... in his current efforts.... ;)

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by iGAV
I support and back our PM 100%...... in his current efforts.... ;)

Yes, he's a creepy little m****rf****r generally, but his politics are sound and he's usually right about the big stuff.

[kettle]

Talking of participants, have you noticed which way FRANCE and GERMANY are leaning. I think the U.N. is being manouvered as a tool in the creation of the United States of Europe. It's the one solid thing (apart from land mass) that holds Europe together. I sense resentment toward America from a lot of the U.S.E. participants. Lets hope we can get Iraq dusted before something redirects any conflict.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Classic :)

To all Britons: Your prime minister is a lap dog! Vote him out! To all Britons forget this ant post---- WE LOVE YOUR PRIME MINISTER ITS GOOD FOR COUNTRIES TO HAVE STRONG LEADERS WHO STAND UP FOR DOING WHATS RIGHT!RATHER THEN READING THE POLLS AND THEN MAKING THEIR DECISIONS!VOTE HIM IN AGAIN AND REMEMBER THE ONES THAT WANT HIM OUT ARE JUST LIKE THE DEMOCRATS HERE ( DASCHLE ) WHO WILL SAY ANYTHING IN OPPOSITION BECAUSE THEY WISH THEY HAD THOSE POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP! GO TONY!

[kettle]

it's true Tony is the most right wing Lefty P.M. ever. The left will soon be out to get him. Considering most of the UK media is run by lefty liberals this shouldn't take too long once they put their boot in.

[wdlove]

Originally posted by iGAV
I support and back our PM 100%...... in his current efforts.... ;)

Thank you for your support. I think Tony Blair is very courageous, understand that he has great opposition to deal with. We do truly have a great bond as a people.

[Taft]

Thank you for courageously standing against our government, the most powerful in the world, to oppose a war on Iraq which will have uncertain consequences and has even less reason.

If only more countries could stand up to the might and will of the US in the face of our overwhelming financial and military strength, we mighht have more balanced and multilateral actions rather than unilateral and opressive moves.



PS- And if any of you take offense to this post, consider how I must have felt as a person opposed to this action. Bush doesn't speak for all of America in his viewpoints and a certainly don't give any thanks to Tony Blair for his "courageous" stance firmly on the side of the most powerful country in the world.

If he thinks it is the righht think to do, I respect him for his stance, but I would never call it courageous.

Taft

[Falleron]

If some propper evidence was found then the the rest of europe would join against Iraq. However, france and germany are saying until they find something, he is not guilty. However, everyone knows he is doing something. What about the 3000 page document about nuclear weapons/power that scientist had? Or, the weapons that we know that they used to have which have not been declared before the inspectors went in.

[evoluzione]

dubya has been itching to go to war ever since he got into power. if only 'cause his daddy told him so. he's a muppet, just like tony blair. he's (blurgh) crippling the country with the ridiculous petrol prices (gas). every time i go back to england, it costs me more to drive around and see everyone i need to, than it does for my damn flights! for those of you here in the states, for example, the cost of filling up your denali in england, would be approximately $115 (or about a buck a mile). the country is falling apart, maybe it's because i'm looking at it as an outsider now, it's easier to see certain things from a different perspective...however, blair is, unfortunately the best of a pathetic bunch of politicians in england right now.

[iGav]

Originally posted by evoluzione
the country is falling apart, maybe it's because i'm looking at it as an outsider now, it's easier to see certain things from a different perspective...however, blair is, unfortunately the best of a pathetic bunch of politicians in england right now.

What are you on about falling apart??? ultra low unemployment, ultra high employment, low interest rates, low Government borrowing..... and arguably the strongest economy in Europe.... Strong Pound against every other currency in the world..... Fair enough petrol is very expensive, but it is as well in almost every other European country, so we really aren't that much different in that respect!!

I reckon our PM and Chancellor are doing a pretty damn good job, considering the mess they inherited from the Conservatives...... (high unemployment, pushing 4 million at it's worst), f-in stupid interest rates, Government borrowing on levels that were unsustainable, and contributed to a recession that lasted from the 80's till the mid-90's.......

I'm just praying that the Conservatives don't ever get in again, because they're a bunch of upper class, racist out dated f-in morons..... although the Liberal's would likely be even worse....... So we could really do with some decent opposition for the next General Election..... to make it alittle more interesting and a party that can present something alittle better than Iain Duncan Smith..... nuff said!

Thank god we don't have Cherac or Schroeder....... in charge!! one can't control his countries work force.... the other can't sort out his economy....

[WinterMute]

Originally posted by iGAV


What are you on about falling apart??? (SNIP) the other can't sort out his economy....

I'd agree with all that with the proviso that I really can't bring myself to trust Blair too far, sure his policies have put the country into a very good position, but it's the incessent spinning I can't stomach.

I've lived and worked in a number of countries, including the USA, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else, certainly not to bring up my daughter.

I'm proud of the support the US and the UK have afforded each other over the years, I think it's right to stand with friends in times of crisis, even if, no especially if, you're not sure wether said friend is right or not;)

Now, if we can just sort out the instutitional racism, the Health Service, public transport and the historical tendancy for the left to self destruct when they are doing well...

[kettle]

Originally posted by iGAV

I reckon our PM and Chancellor are doing a pretty damn good job, considering the mess they inherited from the Conservatives......

LOL... you're kidding. THE ONLY reason Labour managed a second go was that they hadn't managed to spend all the wealth left by John Major. Taxes are so high now and they're getting higher as I speak. We're gonna be in deep do do very soon. It'll be tax and spend all the way until we meet the crappy tests to join the E.U. for real. The recession of which you spoke centering around BLACK WEDNESDAY was a direct effect of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism. Thank god John Major pulled the plug on that one.

The Pro Europe tories defeated Margret Thatcher and John Major, Labour got in by default. If you don't believe me take a look at the numbers for voters involved. Kind of makes a Joke of it all. or you could just put it down to people being too contented to vote.

Tony wants to be President of The United States of Europe. If you could rule out Europe I could safely vote for a party, Labour or Conservative I don't mind I just know when I'm being rail roaded into the biggest Civil war the world is yet to know.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Constantly amazed!:confused: Saddam could hit the doogooders in the head with a brick and they would still be:confused: saddam could kill their woman & children and they would still be:confused: the world did unite on this killer and they are still:confused: We know what he is doing and done and they are still:confused: Even blix knows he is getting the run around and they are:confused: Face it these people just dont get it and never will! and on this issue iam not:confused: ;)

[SPG]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Constantly amazed!:confused: Saddam could hit the doogooders in the head with a brick and they would still be:confused: saddam could kill their woman & children and they would still be:confused: the world did unite on this killer and they are still:confused: We know what he is doing and done and they are still:confused: Even blix knows he is getting the run around and they are:confused: Face it these people just dont get it and never will! and on this issue iam not:confused: ;)

Somebody found the smilies...how cute.:rolleyes:

[Ovi]

11

[Taft]

Originally posted by Ovi


It must be so depressing to be naive and ignorant yet living in the US right now. Bush speaks for a majority in order to protect the minority of morons which you are a part of.

Blair is courageous because he speaks for the minority in his country to defend the majority which has not seen the light yet.

Blair is not only courageous but very articulate as well. In the end it will be England and the US with the eventual blessing of the whimpy French and Germans that will sacrafice English and US soilders and resources to make Europe and the rest of the world a safer place.

This is turning into quite the pi**ing match. :rolleyes:

Lets just say, I'm doing fine, and am anything but naive or ignorant.

As my previous post indicated, I reject the notion that Blair is at all courageous. Blair knows that this action won't harm him politically as long as he moves with the US government. It might look bad in the short term to be acting against a slim majority, but he'll do fine.

And why is it that when people speak or act against a war they are considered wimpy or spineless. What if they think the war is not necessary? What if they think it is avoidable?

How certain are you that Iraq poses a threat to our country? 100%? 75%? 50%? Can't you admit that there is the possibility that others think there isn't a need for war and aren't ignorant and naive, but instead informed and still opposed to the action? Have you no respect for others' opinions? Or are you so sure that you really believe I'm just republican bashing, uninformed or naive?

Let me assure you that myself, and many others like me, are none of those things. We are people who believe this is a war without cause. A war in which the motives are misguided and the outcome of which is uncertain and probably damaging, maybe more damaging than we can imagine.

I resent your comments and your attitude.

Taft

[Choppaface]

Originally posted by Ovi
Bush speaks for a majority in order to protect the minority of morons which you are a part of.

personal insults never helped validate one's argument :P

400 sat for you :P :D :D :D

[GrandShenlong]

"400 sat for you" Seriously? Don't you get 300 for showing up? (I'm assuming you're talking about SATs)

[GrandShenlong]

After reading Ovi's latest post, it seems that this thread is evolving into "we should/shouldn't bomb those d*** Iraqis". I think this thread started as a more purely politically oriented discussion, as oppsed to a "WAR: We Are Right" discussion. if this indeed turns into a "Bomb those *********s" discussion, I'd have more to say. My two cents.

[Ovi]

11

[Taft]

Originally posted by Ovi
Here is just the latest

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,5921220%5E663,00.html

The CIA knows much more.

So this "news" broke yesterday, and yet we haven't heard a word about in the US media. Not even from Fox News. I wonder why that is....

Taft

[patrick0brien]

-Gents

It's always interesting to see where discussions spin off to, either in voice or in a message board.

Clearly, I was relatively on target with my original comment that these are "difficult times" in which we live.

Mac users are a passionate lot, and we stick together like a family. What I've seen here clearly illustrates what is on the mind of many on either side of the pond, and many opinions are being expressed. I too have my thoughts on what is occurring, but that was not my point.

I was expressing a reminder I encountered that showed me where I came from. And that I felt strongly enough about it to express it to you all.

As Mac users we have to depend on each other every day, "fighting the good fight", for an experience that, to us, is more than merely computing. And we need to, as a world community, allow ourselves to be equally introspective, equally passionate about who we are, and where we come from.

This too, shall pass, and new problems will replace them, the only thing that remains, is where our past lies. That, was the point.

[patrick0brien]

-Taft

Have you checked out MeetUp.com?

http://mac.meetup.com/?localeId=78

There's a Mac Meetup on the 11th, if you're interested.

Perhaps we can shake hands.

[cc bcc]

It's actions that speak, and our nations, one borne of the other, are the true leaders of the planet.

Whahaha yeah sure... :o Join up and force your will upon the rest of the world. Bush AND Blair ruling the planet? Why oh why did you have to pick the two dumbest politicians around to do this? :rolleyes:

Nobody can rule this planet, because it's to diverse. It's impossible to satisfy everyones wishes.

And why do you think that bigger is better? I thought Bill and Steve proved otherwise.. :cool:

[Taft]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-Taft

Have you checked out MeetUp.com?

http://mac.meetup.com/?localeId=78

There's a Mac Meetup on the 11th, if you're interested.

Perhaps we can shake hands.

Yeah, I just signed up, and I'll try to make it. Sounds like fun.

Taft

[e-coli]

Originally posted by Taft
Thank you for courageously standing against our government, the most powerful in the world, to oppose a war on Iraq which will have uncertain consequences and has even less reason.

If only more countries could stand up to the might and will of the US in the face of our overwhelming financial and military strength, we mighht have more balanced and multilateral actions rather than unilateral and opressive moves.



PS- And if any of you take offense to this post, consider how I must have felt as a person opposed to this action. Bush doesn't speak for all of America in his viewpoints and a certainly don't give any thanks to Tony Blair for his "courageous" stance firmly on the side of the most powerful country in the world.

If he thinks it is the righht think to do, I respect him for his stance, but I would never call it courageous.

Taft


thank you, good sir! a voice of reason from my home town.

I remain opposed to any bush-led war until i see the proof. until now, it's been all bellicose rhetoric, word-twisting and assumptions.

This is about oil. Maybe (hopefully) my opinion will change after Colin Powell presents to the U.N. But until then...

;)

[iGav]

Originally posted by kettle


LOL... you're kidding. THE ONLY reason Labour managed a second go was that they hadn't managed to spend all the wealth left by John Major. Taxes are so high now and they're getting higher as I speak. We're gonna be in deep do do very soon. It'll be tax and spend all the way until we meet the crappy tests to join the E.U. for real. The recession of which you spoke centering around BLACK WEDNESDAY was a direct effect of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism. Thank god John Major pulled the plug on that one.

The Pro Europe tories defeated Margret Thatcher and John Major, Labour got in by default. If you don't believe me take a look at the numbers for voters involved. Kind of makes a Joke of it all. or you could just put it down to people being too contented to vote.

Tony wants to be President of The United States of Europe. If you could rule out Europe I could safely vote for a party, Labour or Conservative I don't mind I just know when I'm being rail roaded into the biggest Civil war the world is yet to know.

John Major..... :p :p :p

[cc bcc]

Originally posted by e-coli



thank you, good sir! a voice of reason from my home town.

I remain opposed to any bush-led war until i see the proof. until now, it's been all bellicose rhetoric, word-twisting and assumptions.

This is about oil. Maybe (hopefully) my opinion will change after Colin Powell presents to the U.N. But until then...

;)

I'm happy to read posts like these. I know that not all americans agree with Bush, but reading boards like these I sometimes get the feeling that nobody questions the motives. Speak up more, people, before we trigger an overwelming amount of terrorist attacks across the planet, or whatever consequence this war may have.

The USA, Russia, France and England have sold chemical and biological weapons worth billions of dollars to Iraq, some 20 years ago. Of course, Iran was the bad guy back then, but short term actions like these don't work, we know now. If we decide to go to war, the plan must be well thought out. And not just short term, enough to be re-elected for president...

[charboneau]

The level of ignorance in this thread is both mind blowing and disturbing.

Terrorism is without a doubt a threat to the US and UK.

What does this have to do with Iraq? Not much.

We should be concerned with threat posed by al Qaeda, a stateless organization of small cells. Saddam Hussein is the supreme leader of Iraq, and wants to keep it that way. He has taken no military action against his neighbors in the twelve years since the Gulf War. In fact, the US and Britain have been bombing the living ***** out of Iraq on a regular basis that whole time. The no-fly zone ensures that he ain't going nowhere, not that he would-- any adventurism on his part would mean instant anhilation, and he enjoys his job.

Iraq executes al Qaeda agents, bin Laden is a sworn enemy of the secular Iraqi state.

Meanwhile, the intelligence agency of Pakistan, a nuclear power, transfered $100,000 to WTC hijacker Atta.

Fifteen of the nineteen Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudi. How does the Bush administration treat Saudis? http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york091102.asp

The CIA's intelligence reports suggest that Saddam Hussein is unlikely to use weapons of mass destruction unless cornered. So we're going to give him a reason? They'll be used against our servicemen?

Does he have weapons of mass destruction? Probably, but they are outdated and of limited range. And there are inspectors on the ground there now to sniff them out. So rather than have them gather dust, fall into disrepair and have them rooted out and destroyed, we'll give him the opportunity to deploy them.

As for the argument of Saddam distibuting chemical weapons to terrorists, why would terrorists get them from an embargoed, quarantined state and smuggle them elsewhere when they can get them the same way Iraq did in the first place. They could just buy them from US and European corporations. And then they could gas people the way Saddam did the Kurds back in the 80s when Iraq was a US ally and Donald Rumsfeld gave him the US administration's official approval.

If you think the most powerful nation on earth wiping out an impoverished, devastated, powerless nation half a world away will make you safer, I pity your ignorance. Bush's war for peace is a patently silly idea that will only result in death, turmoil and a whole new larger generation of terrorists.

The reasons for the war are simple:

1.oil
2. empire, a foothold in the region
3. because we can, "victory" will be swift and we'll show the world we mean business

Of course since Bush is waffling with nuclear state North Korea while planning to invade toothless Iraq, the world's smaller nations are sent the message that they need to build up their arsenals. So he's sparking a Third World arms race. Genius.

[charboneau]

RE Powell's report:

Photoshop

[Ovi]

11

[Ovi]

11

[markomarko]

Chance that a British citizen thinks the USA poses a greater threat to world peace than Iraq: 1 in 3.

Ha, hahahahahaahaha, hahahahahah!

Oh, I love it. That's real rich. What buddies! What comrades! Er.. .I mean, Allies!

That's almost as rich as the constant references to Pearl Harbor that followed Sept. 11 and the comparison of the Saddam situation to that of Hitler in WWII.

Good Gravy.

[markomarko]

Originally posted by Ovi


Given your perfect analysis I wonder why The RAND Corp. still sends you a check.

Wake up and open your eyes for just one second.

I don't have the time to expose the many holes and most of your arguments.

I am glad to see that you do read NRO.

You get those commies, ovi. :D

[IJ Reilly]

Don't be too impressed with Tony Blair's "courage" in backing the United States. Blair knows that Great Britain has been slipping further and further into irrelevance as a world power for the last 50 years, and has also resisted full participation in the EU. (Hell, just ask the average Britain what they think of the Channel Tunnel.)

Blair wants Great Britain to be a world player and still remain an "island," and just about the only way they can do that anymore is by acting as a bridge between the United States and Europe. Basically, they've got nowhere to else turn unless they want to become the next Netherlands (by which I mean, a very former world power).

Blair might be acting out of principle as well, but never discount the importance of international politics.

[SPG]

This is from Ovi's link.
In essence, the possession of WMD had saved the regime on two occasions. The first was in the war with Iran in the 1980?s when Iranian human wave infantry attacks were repelled with chemical munitions ....
I had asked about the decision by the Iraqi leadership not to employ WMD in the 1991 Gulf War. In a carefully worded response, the impression was conveyed that the President thought if Iraq used chemical or biological weapons against the coalition, retaliation would end his regime and probably him personally.


Now how does this bolster the argument that confrontation is a good idea?
Leave the guy alone and his stockpiles rust and are found by the inspectors. Provoke him with a full scale war and a threatened "regime change"...that's scary.