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MacRumors
Apr 10, 2006, 07:02 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

O'Grady (of PowerPage.org) posted (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=170) some commentary from his perspective of the ongoing lawsuit involving Apple and leaked information on an unreleased Apple product (Asteroid (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/11/20041123012226.shtml)). The lawsuit was filed by Apple in December (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/12/20041217183705.shtml) against "Does 1-20" and subpoenas the ISPs of the sites (including PowerPage) involved for information about the source of the leaks.

PowerPage is being represented by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and their defense claims that website sources are protected by the same laws that protect sources who leak information to journalists.

A judge initially ruled (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/03/20050311160016.shtml) in March 2005 that information such as this is classified as a "trade secret" is not covered under journalistic protection.

On April 20th, the EFF will have their appeal heard by the California Court of Appeal.

iGary
Apr 10, 2006, 07:06 AM
I think you made your point, Steve.

Enough.

fixyourthinking
Apr 10, 2006, 07:20 AM
I think you made your point, Steve.

Enough.

Steve Jobs isn't suing ... I would expect nothing less of Apple legal to protect its shareholders.

There are ways to get rumors, report rumors, and speculate without explicitly soliciting for rumors (such as Think Secret does) and explicitly reporting rumors for profit (artificially raising hit totals by posting rumors) - such as PowerPage.

These leaks hurt Apple sales and even third party Apple developers and retail partners sales - leaving excess inventory while people wait around these rumors.

This site takes multiple sources for rumors and reports them and generally lets the readers speculate. It posts patent applications as a means to convey rumor.

What Think Secret and the Powerpage have done is stolen business plans (trade secrets) ... its time for this to stop.

ImAlwaysRight
Apr 10, 2006, 07:26 AM
I think you made your point, Steve.

Enough.
He sure has. We haven't seen decent specs or release dates since. Look at the Macbook... no complete specs, it could be April, May, or June. Years ago we got "coming next Tuesday." What, maybe 1% of Mac users even follow rumor sites anyway... :rolleyes:

nbs2
Apr 10, 2006, 07:42 AM
I think you made your point, Steve.

Enough.
Many will agree with you. But, to drive it home to those who would continue to ignore you, you have to finish it...

Plus, I still think he isn't sure he has weeded out all the naughty children in Cupertino.

EDIT: As a side note, since I don't want to get into the politics here - this has nothing to do with the First Amendment. I have met the Senior Staff Attorney for EFF. It was nice long discussion about Fair Use (Cary Sherman was there...). He seems sensible. I don't knwo why the EFF is trying to build a First Amendment case here - I don't think anyone should be protected in legit trade secret cases (even journalists). And what is a legit trade secret? That is a matter of fact, not law.

mkjellman
Apr 10, 2006, 07:48 AM
i have to agree. this has really gone out of control and there is no basis for charging these people. Had WSJ published this do you really think there would be any fall out? no, apple would end up giving WSJ more insider info...

thejadedmonkey
Apr 10, 2006, 08:15 AM
i have to agree. this has really gone out of control and there is no basis for charging these people. Had WSJ published this do you really think there would be any fall out? no, apple would end up giving WSJ more insider info...
Agreed.

Maestro64
Apr 10, 2006, 08:16 AM
Nbs2, said it, once you start it you have to follow it through. Plus what did you expect from a megalomanic like Steve, he is tired of people stealing his thunder. He accomplish his first goal which was to shut mouths and now he just going to ensure he closes that door for good.

It will also be interested in seeing what he does with Apple Corp, he could just pay them off like Apple did in the past, but I think he just want this issue to go away too and tire of Apple Corp coming back to the well for more money.

nbs2
Apr 10, 2006, 08:25 AM
I think the boat is being missed here. While I appreciate maestro's vote of confidence, I don't think that this is a result of Steve being upset that his thunder is being stolen.

I think his concern is that unrealistic expectations are being set up. Another issue is that I would presume that he had other concerns about the Asteroid. I don't know how such a device would play out in relation to Apple Corps, but I imagine they would raise a stink about Apple entering music production (if a third party does it, it would be ok) - I could see Steve working to frame the Asteroid in such a way as to avoid such an issue.

And if the material had been leaked by the WSJ, I don't think Steve would go after them this way - I think it would have been a full scale internal assault. Apple just doesn't have the clout/strength/$$ to take on the WSJ (an MS-WSJ battle would be one for the ages...). Since the material was leaked online, there is a much easier and staff friendly method - have/make the webmasters tell you who it was. This way, internal Apple sails smoothly.

fixyourthinking
Apr 10, 2006, 08:38 AM
i have to agree. this has really gone out of control and there is no basis for charging these people. Had WSJ published this do you really think there would be any fall out? no, apple would end up giving WSJ more insider info...

I suppose if I created a website called mkjellmansecret.com ... and solicited to your neigbors and coworkers for information about you and your family and I posted your children's names with school location and pictures ... you wouldn't be upset ... I'm just a small website called mkjellmansecret.com ... and you wouldn't sue if The New York Times did the same thing ... because you think they're a big respectable paper?

MacTruck
Apr 10, 2006, 09:11 AM
Apple YOU SUCK. These news sites are the only thing feeding your sales. KNOCK IT OFF. Geez, talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Who cares if somebody knows about a release a week before it comes out. My god this stuff really pisses me off.

pendragoon
Apr 10, 2006, 09:13 AM
Because O'Grady published corporation secrets, Apple is permitted to pursue him legally in both civil and criminal courts, depending on which applies, perhaps both. Even if he stops and complies with their wishes they can still pursue him to make an example of him and discourage others.

If O'Grady was a trained journalist, he would have studied the U. S. publishing law and would have known that freedom of the press is not absolute. Under the First Amendment you can publish almost anything you want, almost anytime you want, almost anywhere you want. But, among others, you cannot published stolen corporate secrets. And if you do, you must be tough enough to take the legal hit you may receive.

This is not a David and Goliath story. O'Grady has likely violated his legal responsibilities. Again, if he was a professional journalist he would know to check the facts, check the source and make sure he is totally legal and not publishing stolen information. As for his ISP, they may be viewed as the publisher, so they too could be vulnerable because of his actions.

While it's fun to know stuff in advance, and I read the mac rumors sites, so called journalists owe Apple responsibility in the legality of their reporting. That O'Grady is a "loyal customer" is not the point. Can you imagine this conversation at Apple? "Well, sure, O'Grady published our product secrets, and yes, they were stolen, but, gee, he's bought 10 Macs, a mouse and an iPod since 1985, so maybe we should overlook this."

BillyShears
Apr 10, 2006, 09:14 AM
Slightly off topic, but what ever happened to Asteroid?

Maestro64
Apr 10, 2006, 09:17 AM
My personal belief is Asteroid was not a real product it was slideware. The fact this information got out is what drove Steve over the wall. (Think about this, 18 months later and still no product, Apple's development cycles are not this long)

What I find interesting now is O'Grady is claiming the information he got was not marked confidential and Apple stated in their court documents the information he showed on his site came from a presentation which was marked company confidential.

There is also some true to the fact Apple is doing because they can, but to say they would not go after WSJ can not be made since they did not do what O'Grady is alleged of doing. Plus WSJ has ethics department which I highly doublt O'Grady has, he is his own ethics editor. You have no idea what Apple would or would not do, hell look at the Federial goverment, they went after the NYT and won, in a sense.

I am all for free speech and I enjoy hearing all sides and hearing about people and companies who are not doing ethical things but, individuals and companies have no rights to share what is legally not their to share.

One last point on this subject, and O"Grady did point this out, Apple did not go after him, but the ISP. Why, because he was just publishing what was sent to him, but, was the reciever of stolen goods. As such he was implicated in a crime knowingly or unknowingly. Apple has said since the information was stolen they have a right to retrieve and find out who did it. No where did Apple say O'Grady could not publish the information, he is in the middle of this because he would not authorize the ISP to turn over the information.

Face it O'Grady has a personal agenda as well as Apple, but he had lots more to loose if he turns over the thief, his livelyhood, who will go to his site if he can no long get good information which has been the case lately.

JRM PowerPod
Apr 10, 2006, 09:18 AM
Slightly off topic, but what ever happened to Asteroid?

I guess it missed earth. Probably luckily too, it could have caused damage.

Thanatoast
Apr 10, 2006, 09:26 AM
I think his concern is that unrealistic expectations are being set up.
I disagree. Expectations have gone through the roof since info stopped coming out of Cupertino. I shall refer you to a certain media event where "new, fun" products were announced.

fixyourthinking
Apr 10, 2006, 09:30 AM
Slightly off topic, but what ever happened to Asteroid?


My personal opinion? I think it was a fake product that was put with other "real" rumors by Apple to "bad seeds" ... now Apple has traces ... and wants to confirm those traces before firing or suing the actual sources.

nbs2
Apr 10, 2006, 09:36 AM
I disagree. Expectations have gone through the roof since info stopped coming out of Cupertino. I shall refer you to a certain media event where "new, fun" products were announced.
Wrong expectations. I don't think that Apple the corporation cares too much what the expectations of the rumor sites are as far as what fancy new devices will be released. However, when your competitors can expect to know what your future products will be, that is dangerous. When Wall Street expects products to be released and they aren't meeting those goals, your company valuations take a hit. As a shareholder, I would be furious if Apple started making grand promises and failed on a regular basis. Sure this is just the Asteroid, but if you don't quash the leak early how much else is leaked? Suppose the planned Intel switch or Boot Camp was leaked? Huge issues, especially if Apple decides not to do it.

Steve has a fiduciary duty not to act on insider information. That is why he has to disclose his sales of Apple stock. All of his employees have a similar duty. If someone is stealing this information and acts on it, Apple risks an SEC investigation. The kind of person that would leak information with total disregard for the company's welfare is the kind of person that would act on insider information.

dernhelm
Apr 10, 2006, 09:47 AM
I guess it missed earth. Probably luckily too, it could have caused damage.

Actually my guess is that it only existed to root out the people that were stealing Steve's thunder.

A non-product for the purpose of rooting out the evil-doers in Cupertino.

SC68Cal
Apr 10, 2006, 09:54 AM
A non-product for the purpose of rooting out the evil-doers in Cupertino.

The plot thickens.......

BenRoethig
Apr 10, 2006, 10:00 AM
Apple YOU SUCK. These news sites are the only thing feeding your sales. KNOCK IT OFF. Geez, talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Who cares if somebody knows about a release a week before it comes out. My god this stuff really pisses me off.

This is the side I don't want to see from Steve Jobs, the paranoid one. The final members of the Macbook family are late. I don't know how long those who want to buy them will hang on. The occasional "hold on a little longer" rumors keep more than a few users in the Mac crowd.

nbs2
Apr 10, 2006, 10:24 AM
Apple YOU SUCK. These news sites are the only thing feeding your sales. KNOCK IT OFF. Geez, talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Who cares if somebody knows about a release a week before it comes out. My god this stuff really pisses me off.
This is the side I don't want to see from Steve Jobs, the paranoid one. The final members of the Macbook family are late. I don't know how long those who want to buy them will hang on. The occasional "hold on a little longer" rumors keep more than a few users in the Mac crowd.
GAA! Where does this madness come from? First of all, MR, TS, O'G, etc. are not the "only thing feeding [Apple's] sales." The people that come to these sites to worship at the altar of Apple on a regular basis are the folks that would be buying these products anyway. By stopping the outflow of confidential information from coming to these sites, Apple will not increase or reduce their sales. Switchers are not going to be put off by a corporation protecting the interests of its shareholders.

The "final members of the MB family" (I assume the heirs to the iBook is what you mean) are not late. At what point did Steve promise you a MB by a specific date. I don't remember getting that promise. Those that are hanging onto Apple by the thead like whispers of the MB are either looking for an excuse or are stupid. And the people that are hanging by the proverbial thread are going to be the same fools who put all their stock into what the rumor sites say. Joe Q. Mac-User is going to buy whatever is available when he wants to buy. Maybe a bit of research will tell him to wait, but Intel vs. G4 is meaningless. If it does what he needs and he is happy he buys. If not, he buys something else.

The threat to Apple by allowing this release of information to go unpunished and underinvestigated is that employees will be enpowered to act with impunity. At what point does it stop? By allowing employees to distribute confidential information, Apple ceases to be competitive. By caving to the nonsensical argument that there is a Frist Amendment right to the freedom of speech to disclose business secrets and freedom of press to publish those secrets, Apple fails me and every other shareholder in the company - we are whom Apple has a fiduciary duty to protect. Not you, not my consumer persona, not arn, not MR, and not the Apple rumor industry. If Jim F. Employee is free to disclose confidential information, why can't he just act on it? The day that stocks begin to sell based on insider information is the day that the SEC gets involved. You think Steve is pissed now? Wait until he gets a candygram from Chris Cox.

MacTruck
Apr 10, 2006, 10:38 AM
Bull. If it was illegal then law enforcement would handle it. Instead this is a lawsuit. Shame on you apple.

DKZ
Apr 10, 2006, 10:52 AM
I think his concern is that unrealistic expectations are being set up. Another issue is that I would presume that he had other concerns about the Asteroid. I don't know how such a device would play out in relation to Apple Corps, but I imagine they would raise a stink about Apple entering music production (if a third party does it, it would be ok) - I could see Steve working to frame the Asteroid in such a way as to avoid such an issue.

Well complete silence is not going to fix that, information will. I don't get Apples secrecy, I understand why it was important back in the day when Microsoft would steal their ideas, but they are currently so far the products apple has on the market that they shoudn't worry about their new stuff. I think a lot of people get very angry when they buy a apple product, just to see the replacement being released the week after at the same price. And I don't think that it helps sales to keep stuff like this secret, if apple came out now and said that the Macbook would come i june, I'd buy a ibook now, and if it came tomorrow I'd wait. Or if they would just give the specs, like any other hardware manufacture in the world, I could make a choice now.

I bought a 4g ipod, just to see the video come next week, If I had now that it would be coming I'd have waited, It made me pretty pissed.

nbs2
Apr 10, 2006, 11:10 AM
Bull. If it was illegal then law enforcement would handle it. Instead this is a lawsuit. Shame on you apple.
Umm....searching the thread for the term illegal gave me two hits - one where you posted it, and one where I quoted you. All I said was that leaving the current situation be gives the appropriately motivated employee no deterrent from acting on the information. If stocks are sold based on this insider information, then they will have violated the law. I have decided against launching into a primer on administrative law as it pertains to this. But, insider trading = very, very, bad.

Tying this back to the original problem of business secrets, this is a civil law problem - not a criminal (well unless the government, with Apple's cooperation, goes forward with a theft or conversion case against the emplyoee). Law enforcement has nothing to do with this. This is why we have civil courts.

mackeeper
Apr 10, 2006, 11:13 AM
Dude! I'm totally p1ssed at Apple now. How come they havent mentioned anything about the new products?!!?!? They didn't even celebrate their 30th anniversary.

Hattig
Apr 10, 2006, 11:43 AM
This was a case of leaking a trade secret to the press.

It wasn't whistle blowing nor did it have any aspects that were in the public interest to know. These are things which should be protected.

Now if Apple were in the process of bringing an asteroid onto a collision course with Earth ... that's in the public interest to know about and the source should be protected. If Apple were dumping toxic waste into cupertino's water system then the whistle blower should be protected.

But why should someone leaking trade secrets be protected?

Whistleway
Apr 10, 2006, 11:51 AM
Dude! I'm totally p1ssed at Apple now. How come they havent mentioned anything about the new products?!!?!? They didn't even celebrate their 30th anniversary.

Chalk me as an irate one too !!

kenaustus
Apr 10, 2006, 11:57 AM
I can recall many years ago talking to a friend in Australia , who was an IBM salesman. His tech support guy was pulled & sent to the US to be briefed on a new computer line IBM was releasing. The guy was to present it to all of IBM Australia on it's release date. Less than 24 hours before the release the new computer lines was pulled and replaced with the System 34. (You have to be OLD to remember the System 34, followed by the fantastic System 38. Read up on the System 38 and it'll blow your mind.)


The fact is that large companies (and Apple is a large company) have some very strict legal responsibilities, especially when it comes to the SEC protecting shareholders. Insiders providing information on a "potential" product can impact the price of the shares and people buying shares based on that information can be harmed if it isn't delivered. Asteroid hasn't been delivered, neither has an Apple PDA. It could well be that Asteroid was, like the PDA, a product in the labs that will not be delivered, or will be delivered in a totally different format.

Apple is probably acting under their responsibilities as set forth by the SEC and they are considering that responsibility a serious matter. If that leaves us with only our best guesses then we can live with that - some are pretty good. And there are always the elevator pictures.

MacTruck
Apr 10, 2006, 12:03 PM
Nope. This is lame. Apple waits until the very last second to let you know what is coming out. NO other company does that. Its a stupid practice. Screws alot of people out of machines they normally would have waited a few more days for. Its a scam to sell more stuff, thats all.

I don't care about the shareholders. I am the consumer. I want hardware thats up to date and I want info when it will be out so I can plan for it. Umm, what other company has news sites that give live feeds on hardware releases. Talk about holding a sandwich in front of a starving man.

nbs2
Apr 10, 2006, 12:18 PM
I don't care about the shareholders. I am the consumer.
Now, my friend, your education is complete. Businesses, including Apple, disagree with your opinion. The consumer does not matter on his own. The consumer is only relevant as far as the shareholder wants him to be. If the shareholders were to unite and demand what you want with the threat of the Board being voted out (I don't believe Steve has a majority of the shares), then there may be those changes. But, until then, Apple is enjoying profits which in turn, I enjoy as I watch my portfolio grow in value.

So, you should go out and buy a majority holding in Apple.

MacTruck
Apr 10, 2006, 01:28 PM
So, you should go out and buy a majority holding in Apple.


Or stop buying apple products. The consumer is the most powerful group in the equation.

nbs2
Apr 10, 2006, 02:01 PM
Or stop buying apple products. The consumer is the most powerful group in the equation.
Go ahead. Stop buying Apple products. I dare you. Because frankly, I don't care.

That is what Steve would tell you in white text in his letter that is sent in response (he would be aware of the corporate image and send you a message that he appreciates your concern and your comments help make the company better). Consumers are the source of funds for every company. The masses are the consumers for many products, especially from Apple. He would not deny your assertion about that. But, apparently enough people don't care about product cycles and announcements to give Apple reason to stop and reevaluate it's decisions.

Rarely do the masses truely unite behind a boycott idea. It happens, but rarely. If you believe you can take on the machine that is Apple, go ahead. I'll still be buying Apple products while you hunt for drivers on Linux or anti-viruses on Windows.

Bringing this back into the original issue. Yes there are a handful of people that NEED to know when the next build of 10.4.7 is seeded. But most don't care, and don't bother with sites like MR unless they have an issue with their machine and find it while looking for a solution. After that, they go on their merry. But, when an Apple employee or other fiduciary discloses confidential information, the corporation is at risk - no matter how many people see it. Of course the more that see it, the worse it is...So, while you NEED to know when the MB is going to be released and all of its specs, you are under no obligation to buy their products. When the fiduciary NEEDS to leak secrets, Apple is under an obligation to me, and other shareholders, required to find the rat.

DKZ
Apr 10, 2006, 02:40 PM
But, when an Apple employee or other fiduciary discloses confidential information, the corporation is at risk - no matter how many people see it.

How in gods name would apple be at risk if they revealed the specs for the new iBook?

Blackcat
Apr 10, 2006, 03:48 PM
How in gods name would apple be at risk if they revealed the specs for the new iBook?

It could change the share price, which could well break SEC rules. Breaking SEC rules can get you jailed - the board, not the workforce.

Play Ultimate
Apr 10, 2006, 05:41 PM
Having read everything up to this point, it is quite obvious that a number of people need to take a business law class and get a clearer understanding of business.
Regarding business concerns vs. consumer concerns: it is true that Apple needs customers. It just does not need every customer. Apple for the past 30+ years has been quite successful at the way they do business. And I suspect that Apple has been around longer than many on this forum have been alive.

michaelb
Apr 10, 2006, 08:09 PM
How in gods name would apple be at risk if they revealed the specs for the new iBook?

Because it might stop people buying the MacBook Pro and wait for it instead. It takes Apple a while to ramp up production, so sales could take a nosedive for a few months, which is not good for their financials.

In fact, that's exactly my situation at the moment: I'm deciding whether to get a 15" MacBook Pro or wait for the 13.3" MacBook that AppleInsider has revealed.

The 13.3" MacBook (iBook replacement) is likely to be cheaper, so by spilling the beans (albeit not as completely as some Think Secret specs in the years past) they've cost Apple some margin.

Oh well, they'll survive, and I'll get a cheaper laptop!

macb
Apr 10, 2006, 09:25 PM
But, until then, Apple is enjoying profits which in turn, I enjoy as I watch my portfolio grow in value.


You need to check your portfolio more often. Generally speaking, this year, it's been heading down. I have a feeling there is more bad news ahead too.

The word "roadmap" has played a big part in the Apple lexicon as of late. If they want to win business users Apple need a "roadmap" of their own, not a steady stream of surprises. The company is showing serious signs of being permanently stuck in artsy-fartsy mode. Not something businesses want to be based on.

Stock Chart. (http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=AAPL&t=2y&q=l&l=off&z=m&c=YHOO,AMD,INTL,GOOG,MSFT,IBM&a=v&p=s)

Transic
Apr 10, 2006, 11:00 PM
*

Maestro64
Apr 11, 2006, 08:46 AM
You need to check your portfolio more often. Generally speaking, this year, it's been heading down. I have a feeling there is more bad news ahead too.

The word "roadmap" has played a big part in the Apple lexicon as of late. If they want to win business users Apple need a "roadmap" of their own, not a steady stream of surprises. The company is showing serious signs of being permanently stuck in artsy-fartsy mode. Not something businesses want to be based on.

Stock Chart. (http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=AAPL&t=2y&q=l&l=off&z=m&c=YHOO,AMD,INTL,GOOG,MSFT,IBM&a=v&p=s)

An Apple product road map is only important to a company who own future development depends on Apple's product road map. I do not believe are too many companies out there who are basing thier future product releases on any computer company's next PC. What most companies worry about when it comes to computers is will they be around tomorrow and will they continue to support their products. Everyone knows Apple support for both hardward and software is far the best and beyond industry standards. The real issue they always had was will they be around tomorrow.

This still weighs on peoples minds, many wonder if apple will move out of the hardward business all together and become a software/media services/ipod company.

Plus, a road map for a PC/Mac is simple, they will be faster, bigger storage, more memory, and better display, this has not changed in 30 yrs, Moores Law has laid out the road map and it is easy to follow.

Maestro64
Apr 11, 2006, 09:08 AM
GAA! The threat to Apple by allowing this release of information to go unpunished and underinvestigated is that employees will be enpowered to act with impunity. At what point does it stop? By allowing employees to distribute confidential information, Apple ceases to be competitive. By caving to the nonsensical argument that there is a Frist Amendment right to the freedom of speech to disclose business secrets and freedom of press to publish those secrets, Apple fails me and every other shareholder in the company - we are whom Apple has a fiduciary duty to protect. Not you, not my consumer persona, not arn, not MR, and not the Apple rumor industry. If Jim F. Employee is free to disclose confidential information, why can't he just act on it? The day that stocks begin to sell based on insider information is the day that the SEC gets involved. You think Steve is pissed now? Wait until he gets a candygram from Chris Cox.

First, I would not assume this information is coming from Apple employees. I know of two note worthy examples. 3 month before the Mac II Ci came out a picture of the system and logic board showed up on the front cover of Rumor Magazine (the name now slips my mind) and as it turned out it was third part software developer who leaked the information. Needless to say the person was tracked down, lost their job, and was blackballed from every working with any Apple third party.

The next example was a contractor at Apple who came across the 2 yr internal product road map for the PowerBooks and leaked the information to the rumor mills. he too was tracked down and was blackballed.

Most of this rumor stuff is coming from channel partners and third parties to Apple. Not to say some information is not come from internal sources.

nbs2, I agree with you that Apple must do everything in their power to protect trade secrets, otherwise the run the risk that in the future when something really important happens the courts will not find in their favor due to past non due diligence on their behalf. A good Trade Secret lawer will say you must treat everything as a trade secret (even the Lunch menu, to quote O'Grady) otherwise, the courts my feel like you didn't care. perfect example, Apple took the GUI from Xerox and then 10 yrs later Xerox tried sue and the judge throught it out since the didn nothing for 10 yrs.

asphalt-proof
Apr 11, 2006, 09:12 AM
Now, my friend, your education is complete. Businesses, including Apple, disagree with your opinion. The consumer does not matter on his own. The consumer is only relevant as far as the shareholder wants him to be. If the shareholders were to unite and demand what you want with the threat of the Board being voted out (I don't believe Steve has a majority of the shares), then there may be those changes. But, until then, Apple is enjoying profits which in turn, I enjoy as I watch my portfolio grow in value.

So, you should go out and buy a majority holding in Apple.


While I don't agree with you about the merits of Apple's lawsuit against the ISP (It seems contractory to say that the ISP is liable for O'Grady's actions), corporations are only beholden to their shareholders. They are the owners and with the sale of stock, comes certain and explicit expectations that the company will do all it can to protect the shareholders investment. Even if it means that the consumer is somehow 'screwed'.

asphalt-proof
Apr 11, 2006, 09:19 AM
Because it might stop people buying the MacBook Pro and wait for it instead. It takes Apple a while to ramp up production, so sales could take a nosedive for a few months, which is not good for their financials.

In fact, that's exactly my situation at the moment: I'm deciding whether to get a 15" MacBook Pro or wait for the 13.3" MacBook that AppleInsider has revealed.

The 13.3" MacBook (iBook replacement) is likely to be cheaper, so by spilling the beans (albeit not as completely as some Think Secret specs in the years past) they've cost Apple some margin.

Oh well, they'll survive, and I'll get a cheaper laptop!

A good example of this would be the original Osbourne computer. THey came out with a great product then announced that an even better product was on the way. Sales plummeted and the company died.

BenRoethig
Apr 11, 2006, 10:39 AM
A good example of this would be the original Osbourne computer. THey came out with a great product then announced that an even better product was on the way. Sales plummeted and the company died.

Yes, but a similar configuration is already available with the Mini and entry level core Solo/ Duo wintel laptops have been out for months. Everybody knows its coming and nobody is going to buy a machine they already know is obsolete. Apple is just late to the party.

DKZ
Apr 11, 2006, 02:32 PM
Because it might stop people buying the MacBook Pro and wait for it instead. It takes Apple a while to ramp up production, so sales could take a nosedive for a few months, which is not good for their financials.

In fact, that's exactly my situation at the moment: I'm deciding whether to get a 15" MacBook Pro or wait for the 13.3" MacBook that AppleInsider has revealed.

The 13.3" MacBook (iBook replacement) is likely to be cheaper, so by spilling the beans (albeit not as completely as some Think Secret specs in the years past) they've cost Apple some margin.

Oh well, they'll survive, and I'll get a cheaper laptop!

Well no matter what, you're buying a laptop, win for apple right? I'm pretty sure that the share of the Macbook pro buyers that would have bought a macbook instead, had it been here, is very slim, people know that a iBook replacement is around the corner, not only people reading rumor sites, every idiot can figure out that the iBook will make the same transition as every other line, and the lesser idiots can figure out that it'll come before the schools has to buy new hardware. So just give us a ****ing date, a spec or something.

Most hardware manufactures in the pc world lets everybody know what there doing the next 10 years, and they don't fall from the sky because of it. This just a way to make more money of consumers, and in turn, make them pissed.

gnasher729
Apr 11, 2006, 05:45 PM
How in gods name would apple be at risk if they revealed the specs for the new iBook?

Just as an example: Dell could prepare a notebook with identical specs at a lower price (as a loss leader) and announce it one hour before the MacBook is announced, explicitely stating that Apple will not be able to match that offer. That would be damaging.

As Dell doesn't know the specs, they will need a few weeks to react to whatever Apple does.

DKZ
Apr 12, 2006, 06:14 AM
Just as an example: Dell could prepare a notebook with identical specs at a lower price (as a loss leader) and announce it one hour before the MacBook is announced, explicitely stating that Apple will not be able to match that offer. That would be damaging.

As Dell doesn't know the specs, they will need a few weeks to react to whatever Apple does.

Not at all dude, you can get plenty of laptops that are cheaper and better then apples, but none of those has Mac OS X, people buy apple for Mac OS X. For most people its only a choice of Apple vs Apple not as in your example Apple vs Dell.

Dell doesn't care what Apple do, Apple has something like 2% of the computer market, and thats all their computers, Dell has far bigger competitors then Apple. And Apples main focus is Mac OS X, whereas Dell does nothing else but hardware.

The few people that count on the hardware to make a choice between a Mac and a PC is plain stupid anyway, and they present such a little share of consumers, that they are in no way worth the risk of pissing off all of the faithfull Apple buyers.

Sirin
Apr 12, 2006, 07:17 AM
If people get the information about upcoming things way before Apple even announces it, Apple is at risk of becoming victim to The Osborne Effect. :rolleyes:

sushi
Apr 12, 2006, 08:04 AM
I bought a 4g ipod, just to see the video come next week, If I had now that it would be coming I'd have waited, It made me pretty pissed.
Why is this different from what Dell, Toshiba, NEC, Sony, etc. do?

DKZ
Apr 12, 2006, 10:12 AM
Why is this different from what Dell, Toshiba, NEC, Sony, etc. do?

Well, I'd think it would be obvious really, but we can take it once more for you. Those you mention will go out and tell the public what they have in store for the consumers in the future, we already know now Sonys playstation 3's specs, from Sony mind you.

AMD, Intel, Nvidia and ATI has already now proclaimed what the next two generations of GPUS/CPUS will be like, and around when we should expect them. There is not many others then Apple that goes this far in the quest for secrecy.

gnasher729
Apr 12, 2006, 05:00 PM
AMD, Intel, Nvidia and ATI has already now proclaimed what the next two generations of GPUS/CPUS will be like, and around when we should expect them. There is not many others then Apple that goes this far in the quest for secrecy.

I would be really interested to see a programming manual for the latest NVidia and ATI graphics cards. And I would really like to see any offical hard information from Intel about the details of Core Duo, Merom and Conroe. I guess they are trade secrets.

sushi
Apr 13, 2006, 05:11 AM
I would be really interested to see a programming manual for the latest NVidia and ATI graphics cards. And I would really like to see any offical hard information from Intel about the details of Core Duo, Merom and Conroe. I guess they are trade secrets.
Nice rebuttal to the post above yours who responded to my prior post.

Rumors and projected plans are one thing.

Specifics are another.

I don't see AMD, Intel and the like putting out specifics on all products as a rule. Occasionally, we see leaks to counter other competitors on specific products.

Even car companies guard their trade secrets zealously. Sure we know a new Corvet or Mustang is coming out each year. Duh. But we won't know what it looks like until release day.

DKZ
Apr 13, 2006, 06:00 AM
I would be really interested to see a programming manual for the latest NVidia and ATI graphics cards. And I would really like to see any offical hard information from Intel about the details of Core Duo, Merom and Conroe. I guess they are trade secrets.

As a consumer I don't care about all of that, what I care about is what it'll be like and when it'll be here, and that information they have given out. Apple could easily reveal some basic specs and a release date without losing any sales.

And for an example I found this link in two secs:

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2648

Even though it isn't coming from Intel, they have been kind enough to hand over their stuff so others can have a look at it. Yes the link is a little old, but it still shows that Intel do let people know what there doing.

I don't see AMD, Intel and the like putting out specifics on all products as a rule. Occasionally, we see leaks to counter other competitors on specific products.

No perhaps not, but you don't see them filling lawsuits at people that for example break their NDAs let alone people that just say, this is coming soon, as it seems to be the case here with apple. They do however give out the information that interest consumers, how do you think you know about merom and conroe? If that were apple products, right now you'd be guessing what is behind those codenames.