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View Full Version : Bush/Asscroft want to turn America into a police state


peter2002
Feb 7, 2003, 08:57 PM
Yes, it's true. Bush/Asscroft have submitted a new piece of legislation that will turn the USA into a police state similar to what you see in China, North Korea, or the former USSR. Bush/Asscroft want a secret police force, have secret arrests, arrests citizens without a warrant, strip citizenship without a trial, conduct wire taps and searches without a judge's order, monitor all email, medical records, credit card records, and all your internet activity without a search warrant, and most important, no oversight by any authority.

A police organization like this once existed, it was called the Gestapo.

PBS' NOW Reports:

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_lewis2.html

Read Confidential Draft Legislation here:

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/patriot2-hi.pdf

____

Osama has won. He has turned this once great country into a police state.

Pete :(

Nipsy
Feb 7, 2003, 09:05 PM
Support your local Libertarian.

RBMaraman
Feb 7, 2003, 09:38 PM
This is terrible. The government has now begun investigating anti-war protest organizers, calling them traitors! I guess Bush and Ashcroft have never heard of something called the Bill Of Rights.

After reading that article, I find myself even more disgusted with the horrible practices used by this President. He's turning this country into a Hell hole. Who knows how much corruption is going on within the government. It'll probably take 20 years to clean up the mess Bush and his cronies have made.

I don't support Bush. I never have, and I never will. I'm proud to be a democrat who's standing up for the values our fore-fathers instilled on this country. it's time for all Americans to stand up and tell Bush that we're not going to take any of this crap!

alex_ant
Feb 7, 2003, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by RBMaraman
This is terrible. The government has now begun investigating anti-war protest organizers, calling them traitors! I guess Bush and Ashcroft have never heard of something called the Bill Of Rights.

After reading that article, I find myself even more disgusted with the horrible practices used by this President. He's turning this country into a Hell hole. Who knows how much corruption is going on within the government. It'll probably take 20 years to clean up the mess Bush and his cronies have made.

I don't support Bush. I never have, and I never will. I'm proud to be a democrat who's standing up for the values our fore-fathers instilled on this country. it's time for all Americans to stand up and tell Bush that we're not going to take any of this crap!
I was right with you until that second last sentence. The Dems are no less corrupt, and each and every one of them except the dearly beloved senator of my home state Russ Feingold voted for the PATRIOT Act. If you're "a Democrat who is standing up for the values our fore-fathers instilled on this country," that's excellent, but sadly you're one of the few.

job
Feb 7, 2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Nipsy
Support your local Libertarian.

I'd tend to agree.

Gyroscope
Feb 7, 2003, 10:50 PM
I feel so sorry for u guys, but I wonder how much time we got left until someone here does the same and turn our country into police controled gulag. Its ****in scary, just reminded me of all those apocaliptic si-fi movies (1984 etc.)I ve seen as a kid. Guess thats the new world order Bush senior was talking about some decade ago. Once again fckn scary.

If there was ever time to stand up against these faschists it is now. Its also ironic that country that helped save the world from it in WW2 now does the same.

MrMacMan
Feb 7, 2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant

I was right with you until that second last sentence. The Dems are no less corrupt, and each and every one of them except the dearly beloved senator of my home state Russ Feingold voted for the PATRIOT Act. If you're "a Democrat who is standing up for the values our fore-fathers instilled on this country," that's excellent, but sadly you're one of the few.

your senetor must have been quite stupid, most of them heard 'patriot act' and POOF they think it help the U.S.


HA!

It's loaded with stuff to take away our freedoms.

for more comedy/anger relief
Please refer to the movie 'So Your living in a Police state' :) have fun. (Realmedia blows) (http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/videos_corr.jhtml?startIndex=1&p=colbert)

Okay. Well have fun living in a police state.

DarkNovaMatter
Feb 7, 2003, 11:54 PM
This is really getting sickening- the whole system was made so that a branch was being "watched" by another branch. With secret arrests and all the new stuff being introduced its getting scary. The thing is, who decides what is good or bad? sure it might not turn into a president running for re-election smacking down a opposing party candidate, because "he might be a terrorist because of opposing views", but when your basic constitutional rights are being killed its absurd. Who will decide?

cc bcc
Feb 8, 2003, 09:23 AM
I've read 1984, Brave New World, This Perfect Day, Utopia, but I never believed it would come that far. The big steps needed to let it happen, won't be taken, because we are right here and will be on the look out. I still don't believe that a thing like this will happen. People won't accept it.
You have to pay a price for security against terrorists. But some prices are too high. Freedom comes at a price too. If our freedom makes it hard for a government to defend us, so be it. They'll have to find other methods. We can't give up our freedom, even when we have nothing to hide.
In Holland we don't have to have an ID card with us. It's a left over from WW2 of some sort. I wouldn't mind having to wear some sort of ID card all the time if it makes the work of the police easier, but I won't like to have my DNA or fingerprints in a large database. I won't let the "bad guys" spoil my freedom and innocence. I've done nothing wrong, and I wouldn't like being treated that way.

Imagine not being able to trust your friends. To be arrested because your opinion is considered a threat to national security. Wtf is going on here? Can Bush get away with that? Call me naive, but I really can't imagine that this will ever take place.
Unless we ignore the great minds of the past that warned us against this.

Ifeelbloated
Feb 8, 2003, 09:32 AM
Uh, we're not turning into a police state. We have too many checks and balances for that to happen. The bedrock of our government- the Constitution- doesn't allow for it.
We are just doing what America does best; evolving to meet a new threat. In times like this I take heart in a quote of Winston Churchill, "Let it roar and let it rage, we shall come through."

e-coli
Feb 8, 2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
We have too many checks and balances for that to happen. The bedrock of our government- the Constitution- doesn't allow for it.

that's precisely the point of the article. perhaps you should go back and read it again. the point is that the system of checks and balances is being written out of legislation and sidestepped.

Les Kern
Feb 8, 2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
Uh, we're not turning into a police state. We have too many checks and balances for that to happen. The bedrock of our government- the Constitution- doesn't allow for it.

I'd LIKE to believe that, and I don't REALLY think it's going to happen, but by far my greatest fear are the small steps toward just that. It'll happen so slow that we might not notice until it's too late. Ask those Americans that are being held as "material witnesses" if they know their Constitutional rights are being violated. It's the small steps, man. Also the development of "private armies" has me bothered. A record company just might soon be able to call an ISP and get personal info on me because they think I'm downloading mp3's? The B.S.A.? Watch them small step folks.

yosoyjay
Feb 8, 2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
Uh, we're not turning into a police state. We have too many checks and balances for that to happen. The bedrock of our government- the Constitution- doesn't allow for it.
We are just doing what America does best; evolving to meet a new threat. In times like this I take heart in a quote of Winston Churchill, "Let it roar and let it rage, we shall come through."

Constitiutional rights can be revoked, per Patriot Act, if the Justice Department decides that you are a threat.

Shrek
Feb 8, 2003, 04:14 PM
yet another rumor... :rolleyes:

MrMacMan
Feb 8, 2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Shrek
yet another rumor... :rolleyes:

Um. No. It is called the Patriot Act.

Soon enough our ISP's will regulate our activity and give the info to the government and RIAA/MPAA, just to check us.

I hate when people say 'if your not doing anything wrong nothing will happen' BS. Maybe I am doing something, or maybe my friend is. It will effect me.

Who is this gonna help? What is this gonna do? It will not help anyone, Am I a terriost? No.
But the government likes to have things just in case.

We will not call you an enemy combattant, but if you were you have no rights now, we can hold you, well, forever.

If your ISP says your using alot of bandwitch with relations with some questionable programs were gonna monitor you. Your gonna get caught, listening to music or watching a movie. But we like that feeling.

Let the joy and prosperity to all who spy continue. BTW, Scroll up to my other post and watch the viedo, very funny.

Edit: If you want to know more about Act 1 and Two Click these links.
Welcome to today's world (http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot/)
And welcome to tommorow. (http://publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/home.asp)

wdlove
Feb 8, 2003, 07:52 PM
This is truly scary times that we live in now. If the terrorist would do what they are capable of in the US, it will truly take many strict measure. I'm afraid chaos would reign if our government doesn't get under control rapidly.

Zion Grail
Feb 8, 2003, 09:37 PM
If this legislation gets presented and passed as is, I'm moving to Canada. Period.

The passing of this bill will signify the death of the United States and the birth of a totalitarian state with liberty and freedom for no one.

trebblekicked
Feb 9, 2003, 07:54 AM
"slippery slope" fears prevented stem-cell research from receiving federal support. 'if they pass this, before you know it, they will accept human cloning', was the conservative battle cry. well, no slope could be more slippery than this one.

hell, we're already half-way down the hill. seems to me the patriot bill provides paths around habeas corpus (one of our first liberties) and privacy rights. Now think about this:

the fact that "we" also passed that referendum giving the president emergency powers do take military action if he sees fit without consulting congress, coupled with these two bills, it looks like bush is using his political leverage to strengthen the position of president, and elevate the executive branch above the judicial and legislative. The president nominates and appoints members of his cabinet (serving in the executive) and members of the courts (obviously, the judicial, and often times lifetime appointments). The only segment of the government that does not bow to executive rule is the legislative branch. by drawing decision-making power away from them, the executive branch is empowering itself to run the government on it's own. indeed, the president has the power to negate the effect previous acts passed through congress (witness the repeal of the Presidential Papers Act (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A27293-2001Nov1&notFound=true)

Given the amount of corporate donations given to presidential candidates (republican and democrat), it is naive to assume special interests aren't accomidated by legislation and appointments (witness the repeal of the environmental protection laws (http://www.floridaclimatealliance.net/clearskies.htm) requireing companies to update their polution control technology at considerable cost; Enron exec Ken Lay helping Bush nominate energy commitee members (www.truthout.com/02.02E.Enron.WH.htm), among many others). It is not too far a jump to say the fate of our civil liberties is in the hands of corporate figureheads.

These are scary times, people. zion grail, i had originally begun this reply by saying you were making an overstatement. after only ten minutes following up hunches online, i'm not sure you are.

For those of you who said support your local liberitarian, i can only say i'm not a liberitarian, but i suggets everyone support their local independant party.

trebblekicked
Feb 9, 2003, 08:02 AM
i just watched the steven colbert video. funny, funny, stuff. DID YOU NOTICE THE MAC!?! Was that the 22 or 23", ya think?

Also, i actually think RealOne for OSX is pretty good. Huge step over the OS9 stuff.

dethl
Feb 9, 2003, 09:36 AM
Goto www.privacy.org to get the draft legislation of the "Patriot 2", actually called something else. I read it over (the first 33 pages talk about whats in the bill), and its scary. Ashcroft could make a group you belong to a "terrorist group", strip you of your citizenship, and have you packing out of the US faster than you can say Colin Powell. Tough luck if you are a federal employee...get named a terrorist, and lose all benefits. Things that are really scary is that the FBI and others will have EASIER access to your banking and credit card accounts.

On the digital side, using encryption (like PGP) to communicate to someone about comitting a terrorist attack can land you in jail for a minimum of 5 years. I see alot of abuse of this section since many people use PGP and such when sending emails.

And noone has heard about this because its drafters want to wait for something (like a war with iraq) to be able to easily pass this bill.

daveg5
Feb 9, 2003, 03:01 PM
this is getting "SCARY" we are becoming what we claim to oppose and hate and the reasoning seems to be we must become like those we opposed not to become like those we oppoe? really scary stuff

G4scott
Feb 9, 2003, 08:53 PM
I can't believe how many people actually believe that the US will be turned into a police state... It will never happen with our current system of government.

What Bush, and our government, is trying to do, is find people who are connected to terrorism in some way to try to prevent it. If you're a good American, or even a bad one, and don't do anything related to terrorism, you have nothing to worry about. What's it going to take for people to realize that there are people inside and outside of the US that want to kill Americans at any cost? How many acts of terrorism must be committed before we realize that the threat is much closer to home than we think? As much protection as the US has right now, terrorism is still a very real threat, and with maniacs like saddam with his weapons un-accounted for and links to terrorist groups, who knows how much worse it could get.

This will not lead to something like in Men in Black, where government officials go to your house, abduct you, and flash everybody's memory. People won't just disappear. I think the main point behind what the government is trying to do, is to bring some common sense into trials of terrorists in the US. With our current justice system, a terrorist can get off scot-free with a good lawyer and publicist. If terrorists know that they can be caught, and tried in the US's current judicial system, they have a very good chance at getting set free. If we intimidate and scare the ***** out of them by threatening to try them in closed courts, and do as we please, it will make it much less appealing to be a terrorist. Although we will have to be careful what we say about our country, it'd be better to loose a little bit of freedom than our lives...

trebblekicked
Feb 9, 2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by G4scott
If we intimidate and scare the ***** out of them by threatening to try them in closed courts, and do as we please, it will make it much less appealing to be a terrorist.

this speculation is baseless. we've bombed them, killed them, detained them without rights, overthrown governments that support them, and you think a closed court trial is going to make someone think twice about becoming a terrorist?

This proposed ligislature sacrifices american civilian's freedoms, so american business interests do not have to alter the way they conduct business with the rest of the world. Policy change (specifically a uniform foreign policy in Israel) is what Palastinians want. Appease the Palastinians, and you take away much of the firepower that terrorist recruitors have. Adjust aid packages to bring the moderate middle eastern states in line with similar favorable governments in the world, and reduce sanctions and policies that punnish civilians in muslim nations for the faults of their leaders and you will see terrorism lose it's base.

For some reason, it's a better idea to sacrifice innocent american's civil liberties than address these inconsistencies in our foreign policy.

Les Kern
Feb 9, 2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by G4scott
I can't believe how many people actually believe that the US will be turned into a police state... If you're a good American, or even a bad one, and don't do anything related to terrorism, you have nothing to worry about.


I'd LIKE to agree completely, but what I think folks are cognizant of, and I certainly concur, is the slow erosion of our "usual" rights might lead in the long run to something very different than we have now. Don't for a second think that "it ain't gonna happen in America!", because history has shown otherwise. Better to have the watchdogs now than later having folks frightened to call the president an idiot for fear of house visit by armed men. The Patriot Act worries me because there is NO oversight committee. No checks and balances that our government has done so well on in relation to individual rights.

Les Kern
Feb 9, 2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by trebblekicked
For some reason, it's a better idea to sacrifice innocent american's civil liberties than address these inconsistencies in our foreign policy.

Man I LOVE this quote! Have you considered a run at the DEM nomination? What the govt. needs is some freakin' common sense.

etoiles
Feb 10, 2003, 01:34 AM
trebblekicked for president !
:D

MyLeftNut
Feb 10, 2003, 02:19 AM
Trying to ban terrorism is like trying to ban bad language...it aint gonna happen...wake up America, the rest of the free world needs you to do the RIGHT thing now...your constitution still remains as one of the greatest achievements in history...protect it!

dethl
Feb 10, 2003, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by G4Scott
If you're a good American, or even a bad one, and don't do anything related to terrorism, you have nothing to worry about.

I see this legislation as a way for Bush and Ashcroft to rid themselves of people they find unfavorable. Hypothetically speaking, they could label the Democratic party as terrorists and have them all shipped out out the country.

It will be a cold day in hell if this did happen...and I would be on my way to Canada as well.

macfan
Feb 10, 2003, 11:30 AM
It will be a cold day in hell if this did happen...and I would be on my way to Canada as well.

What's so wonderful about Canada? They already have more restrictions on free speech than does the United States.

I would remind everyone that anyone sounds right until the other side states its case. I would not freak out over a piece of draft legislation that is still in the development phases. If there are highly objectionable elements in the legislation, they will be debated and altered within the administration, in the House and in the Senate. We are not turning into a police state. The sky is not falling.

How many of you thought we were a police state when the Clinton administration illegally took raw FBI files of some political opponents? You saw how they got slapped down over it. Don't sweat it.

trebblekicked,
Wouldn't it have been better if Hitler had just finished the job? Then we wouldn't have to tolerate these pesky Jews in the middle east. I'll bet if we would just get rid of Israel as a state that the Islamic fundamentalists in the region would all become freedom-loving democrats.

Les Kern
Feb 10, 2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by macfan
I would not freak out over a piece of draft legislation that is still in the development phases.
I sure would, and am. Watch the inexorable slide, and watch our leaders. I REALLY love this country and don't even remotely consider myself takien in by baseless opinion, but some evidence is there. Recent events have me frightened, or at least concerned enough to spend my valuable time looking around for articles and forums.
If you watch the wire and look for patterns or seemingly minor events you'll see things that appear to be related. Sure, it could be that one could be a nutty conspiracy theorist that is true, and connecting dots is almost impossible. I still feel it in my bones. Case in point: Ashcroft demanding that New Hamshire and, I think Maine, to seek the death penalty in more cases to make it fair to the other states, and the same justice department withholding evidence in that Dr. in California was merely a drug dealer and neglected to mention, or wouldn't even allow, evidence that he had permission from the state govt. to grow medicinal pot. Related? I think so.

macfan
Feb 10, 2003, 12:12 PM
If you watch the wire and look for patterns or seemingly minor events you'll see things that appear to be related

Did you ever watch the movie "A Beautiful Mind?"

Les Kern
Feb 10, 2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by macfan
Did you ever watch the movie "A Beautiful Mind?"
Um, yes. I hope you're not going where I think you are! I am quite sane, but I have had a lot of pressure at work lately! :)

macfan
Feb 10, 2003, 01:38 PM
All I'm trying to say is that people shouldn't let their political dislike of Bush and Ashcroft make them think that they are the second coming of Hitler and Stalin. The same thought process can be seen among right wingers who think that Clinton was a cocaine smuggler who had people murdered as a matter of course back in Arkansas. He wasn't. They aren't

Les Kern
Feb 10, 2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by macfan
All I'm trying to say is that people shouldn't let their political dislike of Bush and Ashcroft make them think that they are the second coming of Hitler and Stalin. The same thought process can be seen among right wingers who think that Clinton was a cocaine smuggler who had people murdered as a matter of course back in Arkansas. He wasn't. They aren't

Excellent point.

trebblekicked
Feb 11, 2003, 07:44 AM
sorry i missed the past few days; i've been working overnights this past week and i'm all messed up now.

Anyway,
thanks for the presidential endorsement, Les (& etoiles). If they should lower the legal age from 35 to 25, count me in. But if they don't, and you want to run, i'll help out any way i can:)

Wow. I'm too tired to even finish this post. I'll just leave it at this for now:

I agree that bush and ashcroft are not hitler or stalinesque. i think, however, their policies on domestic security possess a frightening potential; for these bills to pass through congress, and to do so without a fight is misrepresentation of the worst kind. The ACLU should be raising absolute hell over this. If they don't, I will.

"We must complain. Yes, plain, blunt complaint, ceaseless agitation, unfailing exposure of dishonesty and wrong -- this is the ancient, unerring way to liberty and we must follow it."
--W. E. B. Dubois