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Diatribe
Apr 20, 2006, 09:39 AM
Found this and though it was a pretty fun read.

I loved this part:

Once Firefox is installed, there are two icons on my Desktop I'd like to remove: The Setup application itself and a shortcut to Firefox. So I select both icons and drag them to the Recycle Bin. Simple, right?

Wrong. Here's what you have to go through to actually delete those files in Windows Vista. First, you get a File Access Denied dialog (Figure) explaining that you don't, in fact, have permission to delete a ... shortcut?? To an application you just installed??? Seriously?

more: http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5308_05.asp

Blue Velvet
Apr 20, 2006, 09:49 AM
...In some ways, Windows Vista actually will exceed Mac OS X.


I'm genuinely interested.

Could someone please tell me how? Because Mr. Thurrot doesn't. Particularly if compared to Leopard; its nearest neigbour, so to speak.

Maxiseller
Apr 20, 2006, 11:11 AM
Yeh, I think 10.5 willl clearly blow away Vista.

I hope so at least - it will really give Apple a chance ot shine, which will be nice for a change.

Project
Apr 20, 2006, 11:33 AM
What I find astounding is that he gave it 5 out of 5 in his rating!

Clearly, he couldnt score it lower or the same as his Tiger review (4/5)

atari1356
Apr 20, 2006, 11:48 AM
Yeh, I think 10.5 willl clearly blow away Vista.

Aside from having the ability to run Windows included in Leopard (on Intel Macs), what do we really even know about the new Mac OS?

I think it will blow away Vista too... but then, I think any version of Mac OS X would blow away Vista. ;)

MacBytes
Apr 20, 2006, 12:05 PM
http://www.macbytes.com/images/bytessig.gif (http://www.macbytes.com)

Category: Microsoft
Link: Windows Vista Review, Part 5: Where Vista Fails (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20060420130546)
Description:: Since the euphoria of PDC 2003, Microsoft's handling of Windows Vista has been abysmal. Promises have been made and dismissed, again and again. Features have come and gone. Heck, the entire project was literally restarted from scratch after it became obvious that the initial code base was a teetering, technological house of cards. Windows Vista, in other words, has been an utter disaster. And it's not even out yet. What the heck went wrong?

Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)
Approved by Mudbug

Mudbug
Apr 20, 2006, 12:08 PM
OMG - I linked a Thurrott article...

While there's no real Mac content in this article at all, I did want to point out that this may well be one of the best articles I've ever seen from good ol' Paul Thurrott. We're all so used to him blindly bashing the Mac that it's nice to see him turn his guns on his own for a change.

Read it if you'd like - you'll start wondering why Microsoft is even releasing Vista at all.

Eraserhead
Apr 20, 2006, 12:09 PM
Aside from having the ability to run Windows included in Leopard (on Intel Macs), what do we really even know about the new Mac OS?

I think it will blow away Vista too... but then, I think any version of Mac OS X would blow away Vista. ;)
I dunno it'll probably beat 10.0 (surely?!?) I mean XP is only slightly worse than 10.3 IMHO.

At this rate though with all of Vista's problems Apple *will* have a 95% market share in 5 years. If that shortcut "feature"s in the final release and I was using Windows Vista I'd throw my PC out the window.

It's interesting that since Paul is Microsoft's biggest fan and he hates Vista it's not looking good...


You can just see Apple's ad's for Leapard

"On Leapard you can even delete your own shortcuts without an admin password!"

Savage Henry
Apr 20, 2006, 12:11 PM
I can't seem to to complete it with shuddering at my minds image created by the line:

"quite a few garden variety Windows enthusiasts--charged into Hall A at the Los Angeles Convention Center (LACC) like teenage girls at a Justin Timberlake concert" .... eewwww

XNine
Apr 20, 2006, 12:11 PM
Wow, I NEVER thought Thurrot would actually admit that Vista sucks. Cos it does, and it will, forever. No matter how many kinks MS will try to workout over the next 5-6 years, there will always be massive holes and threats open to the wonderful world wide web.

pacman7331
Apr 20, 2006, 12:32 PM
"File Access Denied dialog explaining that you don't, in fact, have permission to delete a ... shortcut?? To an application you just installed??? Seriously? "

" Windows Vista, in other words, has been an utter disaster. And it's not even out yet..."

"Mark my words, this will happen to you. And you will hate it."

"Someday, it might be interesting--or depressing, at least--to create a list of features Microsoft promised for Windows Vista, but reneged on."

""The visuals in [Windows Vista] are just going to blow you away." Let those words hang in your mind for a bit. Two and a half years later, Microsoft has yet to ship Windows Vista, and..."

"Promises were made. Excitement was generated. None of it, as it turns out, was worth a damn..."

"If blame is to be assessed, we must start with Gates. He has guided--or, through lack of leadership--failed to guide the development of Microsoft's most prized asset. He has driven it into the ground..."

"they've also messied up the interface by overlaying a weird and unnecessary graphic behind the text bits. You know, just in case they were too easy to read."

"and yes, that includes that ridiculous Clippy character from older Office versions..."

"--build 5308 and 5342--and see where Vista just completely blows it. As with the broken promises, Vista's failures are legion, but..."

That these dialogs pop up repeatedly for the same action would be comical if it weren't so amazingly frustrating.

"More to the point, you can't tell topmost windows from other windows at all. And don't pretend you can."

"It's a horrid update to a wonderful bit of software, an ugly stepchild of beautiful parents. It's so bad, I don't even know where to start. "

"The bad news, then, is that UAP is a sad, sad joke."


PPPPPPPSFFFHFHFHHHHHFSSSSHHHHTTTTTT!! ... LOL LOL LOL!!! ROFLMAO!!! =D

backupdrummer
Apr 20, 2006, 12:35 PM
Its like evil Paul.

I half expected his picture to have a goatee.

Benjamin
Apr 20, 2006, 12:42 PM
OMFG I just started reading it and I think it just got a bit colder in hell. :eek:


... times are changing. :cool:

nbs2
Apr 20, 2006, 12:44 PM
The thing is, this was Part 5 of his review. He reserved this part to lambaste Vista for it's shortcomings. Parts 1-4 were there to talk about all of the great things about it. Of course one of the things he loved was the aero glass interface (which he hates here).

Kind of like a nasty car crash, I've felt compelled to follow the Vista story for a while now, observing through his site (plus, when you have to support a family member who uses Windows, it makes research much faster). I think he's disappointed, but hopeful with this. If it gets delayed one more time, I think he might implode (forcing his kids to learn an entirely new interface - and not the MC package on Vista).

ChrisA
Apr 20, 2006, 12:46 PM
It's very easy to know what went wrong. IBM had the exact same problem in the 1960's with their "next great do-everything Operating System". I suspect the enginerrs at MS are all to yong to have read this book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

It was required reading back when I was getting into this field in the 70's

AtHomeBoy_2000
Apr 20, 2006, 12:47 PM
WOW! He just ripped Vista completely apart. It seems like a "I'm Mad as Hell, and I ain't going to take it anymore" piece. Very well done!

nagromme
Apr 20, 2006, 01:06 PM
Wow--I had no idea it was that bad.

But Vista is a long way from release, MS may well scrap a lot of these mistakes--and put back in the removed features--between now and then. This is only a beta.

Doesn't sound good though!

And the UI chaos in those screenshots is just frightening. Media Center is the simplest one... and I count four different Play buttons :o No doubt some of them do different and exciting things, while some of them do the same thing :D

AtHomeBoy_2000
Apr 20, 2006, 01:19 PM
And the UI chaos in those screenshots is just frightening. Media Center is the simplest one... and I count four different Play buttons :o No doubt some of them do different and exciting things, while some of them do the same thing :D
How ugly is this!?
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/vista5231_2_mce_albumfilter.jpg

pacman7331
Apr 20, 2006, 01:35 PM
I haven't laughed that hard in a long time...

Timepass
Apr 20, 2006, 01:39 PM
What I find astounding is that he gave it 5 out of 5 in his rating!

Clearly, he couldnt score it lower or the same as his Tiger review (4/5)


I dont find that surpising at all.
He is giving Vista slack right now that it should have because it is still in the Beta phase. In the Beta phase you can get a 5 out of 5 still having problems even some huge ones like the removing short cuts and it is a problem that will be fixed. Main thing is you know the software is working in that area it is now just needing some work to finish it up.

Tiger got a 4/5 because it had some problems at release it is no longer a beta program. Now if Tiger was still a beta at that time it would of gotten 5/5 but it wasnt. It was released to the public with problems that should of been fixed before hand. By 10.4.1 it had a lot of those things fixed but par as normal it takes apple at least 1 update to fix a few beta bugs.

Now when Vista gets to RC phase I would expect it to get less and less slack. RC is for fixing the final few things. The reviews as time gets close to the release date are going to become less and less forgiving. Right now Vista is a BETA so it should get a lot of slack

bobdgil
Apr 20, 2006, 01:49 PM
Is it just me, or does the screenshot of WMP 11 show songs organized by artist/album when "Songs" is selected? :confused:

Project
Apr 20, 2006, 02:01 PM
I dont find that surpising at all.
He is giving Vista slack right now that it should have because it is still in the Beta phase. In the Beta phase you can get a 5 out of 5 still having problems even some huge ones like the removing short cuts and it is a problem that will be fixed. Main thing is you know the software is working in that area it is now just needing some work to finish it up.

Tiger got a 4/5 because it had some problems at release it is no longer a beta program. Now if Tiger was still a beta at that time it would of gotten 5/5 but it wasnt. It was released to the public with problems that should of been fixed before hand. By 10.4.1 it had a lot of those things fixed but par as normal it takes apple at least 1 update to fix a few beta bugs.

Now when Vista gets to RC phase I would expect it to get less and less slack. RC is for fixing the final few things. The reviews as time gets close to the release date are going to become less and less forgiving. Right now Vista is a BETA so it should get a lot of slack

I completely disagree.

If that is the case, then giving a rating on a beta is flawed and as such should be removed from the review.

iPhil
Apr 20, 2006, 02:03 PM
What I find astounding is that he gave it 5 out of 5 in his rating!

Clearly, he couldnt score it lower or the same as his Tiger review (4/5)


Of Course Not Thurott is M$ft wind boy :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

To keep the checks coming in,he needs to keep his reviews higher on M$ft items:eek: :rolleyes:

winmacguy
Apr 20, 2006, 02:07 PM
OMG - I linked a Thurrott article...

While there's no real Mac content in this article at all, I did want to point out that this may well be one of the best articles I've ever seen from good ol' Paul Thurrott. We're all so used to him blindly bashing the Mac that it's nice to see him turn his guns on his own for a change.

Read it if you'd like - you'll start wondering why Microsoft is even releasing Vista at all.
I was reading this article last night when deciding whether or not to post it, I actually found it to be a surprisingly interesting read.:eek: I didn't get round to reading all of the replies to the article on OSNEWS.

macFanDave
Apr 20, 2006, 02:11 PM
for the Dvorak article where he predicts that Microsoft will get out of the Operating System business and focus on making apps for Mac OS X.

Eraserhead
Apr 20, 2006, 02:13 PM
I dont find that surpising at all.
He is giving Vista slack right now that it should have because it is still in the Beta phase. In the Beta phase you can get a 5 out of 5 still having problems even some huge ones like the removing short cuts and it is a problem that will be fixed. Main thing is you know the software is working in that area it is now just needing some work to finish it up


I don't think the shortcut thing shouldn't have got into any release (even beta), someone important in microsoft should be using Vista full time by now, they should see this very quickly and say it has to be removed. (Maybe Bill Gates relies on MacRumors for advice on Vista instead though and we haven't seen this until now...:p)

I agree Tiger should get 4/5 but TBH for FIVE years work, Vista still isn't close to XP yet, probably hasn't even reached Windows Me yet. 1/5

shelterpaw
Apr 20, 2006, 02:33 PM
I'm genuinely interested.

Could someone please tell me how? Because Mr. Thurrot doesn't. Particularly if compared to Leopard; its nearest neigbour, so to speak.I'd like to know as well. I doubt he's used OS X much if at all. He's probalby played with it for 5 minutes at a friends house or at an Apple store.

designed
Apr 20, 2006, 02:37 PM
I'll just have to say that now that I'm a Switcher, I'm almost glad the next Windows looks to be that bad, just to assure I didn't make the wrong call. The nice bit about this is that Apple will have it's counterstrike quite ready by the time Vista comes out - delays to Vista mean Apple gets more time to perfect 10.5 if they choose to.

Seems like Vista will bring many needed features and show a bit of user friendliness in some areas (WMP 11 didn't look bad) but UAP and file access stuff seem to take the game right back to the Windows hurt-area: bothering the user with completely unnecessary stuff like pop-up windows and notifications about stuff the user couldn't care less about. Only thing why this worries me is that I will have to work with future Windows versions on friends' and family's computers.

As for the glass windows I think Apple doesn't have anything to be ashamed about.

Photorun
Apr 20, 2006, 02:42 PM
And it's not even out yet. What the heck went wrong?

Well, for starters, it's made by Microsuck...

Eidorian
Apr 20, 2006, 02:51 PM
You can't tell which window is foremost with that Aero glass that they're touting. :eek:

You just get a little red 'X' background on a giant window.


How about a screen with more windows? Go ahead, I dare you: Press DELETE. I'm sure you'll get the right window. (It's the one in the lower left, by the way.)

pourhadi
Apr 20, 2006, 02:54 PM
I'd like to know as well. I doubt he's used OS X much if at all. He's probalby played with it for 5 minutes at a friends house or at an Apple store.

Mr. Thurrott is a regular Mac user. (I noticed him in the Macworld press room working on a 12" PowerBook.) His wife also has a Mac mini, and in the past few months he's purchased (and sold) an Intel iMac and Intel Mac mini.

(More info at his blog: http://www.internet-nexus.com)

nagromme
Apr 20, 2006, 03:17 PM
OS X had transparent window title bars long before Vista. They were removed with good reason: it's confusing! (And Apple at least made only the NON-current windows transparent.)

Stella
Apr 20, 2006, 03:50 PM
Interesting read.

The problem with microsoft and windows, is that they are being way too ambitious and the project becomes over complex and thus problems begin.

Remember Cairo ( from mid 90s ), based upon NT? microsoft had to postpone features from that, some of those features only made it in Windows XP... some still haven't, such as the, what would be, WinFS - a filesystem based upon SQLServer.

I get fed up of Apple releasing new versions of OSX relatively close to each other.. but then, you get the other end of the spectrum, called Windows - takes years to build, with missing features ( that were promised ). OSX development is more of an evolutionary development cycle - smaller steps, and less riskier.

angelwatt
Apr 20, 2006, 04:03 PM
Ah, an article that shows windows users what a big pile of **** they are really sitting in. It'll be nice to see how aweful windows copies OS X's features.

Applespider
Apr 20, 2006, 04:03 PM
OS X had transparent window title bars long before Vista. They were removed with good reason: it's confusing! (And Apple at least made only the NON-current windows transparent.)

Exactly...I thought the point of being 'late to market' was to learn from your predecessor's errors? How long before the SP1 to turn off the transparencies?

Actually it's a scary article if your biggest fanboi isn't that excited about your newest product. While I don't intend purchasing it for home, chances are that I'll end up using Vista at work at some point... and it doesn't sounds enthralling

bigandy
Apr 20, 2006, 04:12 PM
for the Dvorak article where he predicts that Microsoft will get out of the Operating System business and focus on making apps for Mac OS X.

seeing as thurott is *at last* admitting flaws within vista, and microsoft as a whole, i wouldn't be surprised by that! :rolleyes:

Remember Cairo ( from mid 90s ), based upon NT?

aaah, yes, the "Mythical" Microsoft Cairo :rolleyes:

there's a few interesting articles from - and about - the time, floating around:

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-240990.html

http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=48&DisplayTab=Article

http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/story/0,10801,69882,00.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_operating_system

dongmin
Apr 20, 2006, 04:24 PM
"Paul Thurrott's SuperSite for Windows"

Teeheee, the term "self mockery" comes to mind.

I think I'll start a site called...

"Big D's SuperSite for Macs!!!!!!!!!Sweet!!!!!!!!!!" (www.macsupersite_sweetness.com)

j26
Apr 20, 2006, 04:24 PM
We've just upgraded to XP in work (???) so Vista won't be a problem for me for a long time.

Doesn't sound like it does much extra enyway.

thegreatluke
Apr 20, 2006, 04:29 PM
If Vista happens to end up with no viruses and not much spyware, I'm getting Vista and will probably abandon Mac OS X.

Sorry guys.

iLife, Mac OS X and all of the perks that come with Macs were the only reasons I actually bought a Mac.

Vista is as beautiful and seems that it will be almost as functional, and they're working on an iLife clone. Also, many newer computers are giving perks like Apple's. The only thing left is Mac OS X's filing system, but I can live without it.

Sorry guys, but if you want to try to reswitch me, feel free to try.

Also, it's not like I've ever used Vista or anything; it just looks nice considering recent reviews.

Eraserhead
Apr 20, 2006, 04:59 PM
If Vista happens to end up with no viruses and not much spyware, I'm getting Vista and will probably abandon Mac OS X.
[snip]
Sorry guys, but if you want to try to reswitch me, feel free to try.

Also, it's not like I've ever used Vista or anything; it just looks nice considering recent reviews.


Have you actually read any of Paul's review of Vista (including the not so bad bits), this is Microsofts biggest fan too remember?

OK so it's gonna have a few new features over XP, like a file transfer to transfer settings and it can sync two computers (the only feature OS X doesn't already have) but seems not to support iSync style mobile syncing etc. etc. and um... well it has an iCal clone, and an iPhoto clone, but Movie Maker is still in 2001, DVD maker is a joke, Mail is outlook express with a new skin, and ok it has a firefox clone web browser, and WMP looks promising, but Media Center is awful (probably worse than front row as it's a lot worse than it was.), umm then that's it for the new features over XP.

Oh yeah their copying apples bad features too. Like the lack of an up arrow in the toolbar...

Timepass
Apr 20, 2006, 05:10 PM
From what I am seeing most of you all can not see the a seperation of beta and release. Betas you are allowed to look at the potention and the direction it is heading. I see the annoying short cut thing as something that they made sure that imporant part is working (security). Now they have to go though the messy part and change some setting on it. Not a very easy thing to do since it is all expections.

Back when firefox was at 1.0RC and .9 there was a lot of forgiveness in the problems with it because it was a BETA program. Everyone saw the potentional. Or something on that mac users here may rememeber is back when safari was a beta and it had beta problems. People still praised it and gave it good reviews. Not ripping it appart for it problems that where clearly going to be fixed because it cover potentional.

The closer a product gets to the release date the few and fewer problems it is allowed to get away with.

I would give vista a 5/5 in it current state forgiving it for it problems because it is a BETA build. Now when it goes to RC0 or RC1 yeah less things can be forgiven. The RC releases all that is realling being changes are bug fixes not underline things. Now lets say this beta build was RC1 or RC0 I would say a 3/5 would be a good rating for it. but it not it is a BETA.

While I hate M$ in many ways one thing I think is good and something Apple should be willing to take from them is M$ would rather delay a product to market that release one that is still really just a beta program (can you say 10.0) Apple sticks to a release date and weather or not the stuff is ready for mass market they release it. 10.0 was not ready it was still in the beta zone. Late beta zone but still a beta. 10.1 is what 10.0 should of been.

nagromme
Apr 20, 2006, 05:46 PM
From what I am seeing most of you all can not see the a seperation of beta and release.

Very true. Vista might be a LONG time from release, and a lot can change.

MS might completely scrap the UI and start over, and they might put BACK in all those features that were removed.

But if not... then the Beta argument doesn't work after all. Most of the article's criticisms are not about bugs, or even about specific details--they're about bad broad decisions that are unlikely to change in the beta phase.

But yes, it's possible that MS will pull a 180 and save the beast :)


iLife, Mac OS X and all of the perks that come with Macs were the only reasons I actually bought a Mac.

...

Sorry guys, but if you want to try to reswitch me, feel free to try.

No need. You've listed all the things Vista offers that Macs never will, and all the things Macs offer that Windows does better. Clearly dumping the Mac will pay off big time ;)

boncellis
Apr 20, 2006, 06:08 PM
I admit I'm somewhat biased, but what has gone right with Vista/Longhorn? I think it's hard to talk about where it fails at this (beta) stage, besides the fact that it has been delayed time and again. In that sense, nothing has gone right, has it?

thegreatluke
Apr 20, 2006, 06:37 PM
I admit I'm somewhat biased, but what has gone right with Vista/Longhorn? I think it's hard to talk about where it fails at this (beta) stage, besides the fact that it has been delayed time and again. In that sense, nothing has gone right, has it?
It's basically a copy of Mac OS X.

It's not as pretty, but I'm still not paying the premium*.

*The premium used to be filled up by the included software (iLife) and no malware deal, but Microsoft's making an iLife clone and it seems like there are going to be tougher security settings (like Mac OS X's).

If I can use it under (the new) IE without any malware programs and NOT end up with malware on my computer, I'm getting Vista.

winmacguy
Apr 20, 2006, 06:43 PM
I'd like to know as well. I doubt he's used OS X much if at all. He's probalby played with it for 5 minutes at a friends house or at an Apple store.
I think Paul actually uses a G4 Power Book at Windows seminars with Tiger on it. I know he uses one at home a lot judging by some of the articles I have read on his site. Still there are varying degrees of 'knowing' and 'using' your system

dejo
Apr 20, 2006, 06:48 PM
...but Microsoft's making an iLife clone...

What is this iLife clone you are taking about and where do I find more info on it?

matthew24
Apr 20, 2006, 06:56 PM
'The closer a product gets to the release date the few and fewer problems it is allowed to get away with.'

The question is: Will MS ever get CLOSE to a release date?.:rolleyes:

Over the last decenium, I have only seen an increase of problems with the developement of Vista.

matthew24
Apr 20, 2006, 06:58 PM
'The closer a product gets to the release date the few and fewer problems it is allowed to get away with.'

The question is: Will MS ever get CLOSE to a release date?.:rolleyes:

Over the last decenium, I have only seen an increase of problems in the 'developement' of Vista.

nagromme
Apr 20, 2006, 07:01 PM
What is this iLife clone you are taking about and where do I find more info on it?
MS GarageBand?
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,2180,1947454,00.asp

MS iPhoto?
http://www.microsoft.com/max

Vapor for now, but it's no surprise that they INTEND to mimic iLife :) But of course they'll charge extra for it.

dashiel
Apr 20, 2006, 07:52 PM
It's basically a copy of Mac OS X.

It's not as pretty, but I'm still not paying the premium*.

*The premium used to be filled up by the included software (iLife) and no malware deal, but Microsoft's making an iLife clone and it seems like there are going to be tougher security settings (like Mac OS X's).

If I can use it under (the new) IE without any malware programs and NOT end up with malware on my computer, I'm getting Vista.

if you believe that vista is going to be free of malware i've got bridge you might be interested in. still enjoy microsoft's MyLife i'm sure it will be to iLife what vista is to OS X.

Peace
Apr 20, 2006, 08:03 PM
The only problem MS has with Vista other than the beta bugs is they still want to be able to support as many different computers as possible in order to sell upgrades..That's where MS makes it's money..

If I were Gates I'd just say hey! it's time to move on.Here are the specs for Vista.and if your computer cant handle it buy a new one.Then bite the bullet and lose a billion dollars..

If they did that eventually Vista would be a good O/S.

I'm fully expecting Leopard to really knock the socks off people when they see it in action at WWDC.

angelneo
Apr 20, 2006, 10:07 PM
While I hate M$ in many ways one thing I think is good and something Apple should be willing to take from them is M$ would rather delay a product to market that release one that is still really just a beta program (can you say 10.0) Apple sticks to a release date and weather or not the stuff is ready for mass market they release it. 10.0 was not ready it was still in the beta zone. Late beta zone but still a beta. 10.1 is what 10.0 should of been.
That UAP problem should not have even make it's way into beta. The UI issue about windows focusing could still be understandable but the incessant dialog boxes are just plain embarrassing.

Do you really think the delay in Vista is because MS wanted to make it better? Look at all the empty promises, the missing features, the bugs, the number of years waiting for it. There are a lot of problems internally, even the employees themselves know it (just look at Mini-MSFT blog)

dr_lha
Apr 20, 2006, 10:38 PM
.. the incest dialog boxes ...
The mind boggles.

treblah
Apr 20, 2006, 10:40 PM
I think Paul actually uses a G4 Power Book at Windows seminars with Tiger on it. I know he uses one at home a lot judging by some of the articles I have read on his site. Still there are varying degrees of 'knowing' and 'using' your system

I'm pretty sure he bought his wife a mini and he has had both an Intel iMac and a new mini in the past few months. He sold both IntelMacs but said he would be getting a MacBook (Pro) by summer time.

Also, seeing as how Vista isn't even feature complete, it is a Alpha in my book.

It is amazing that they have spent ~5 years working on this (or ~2 if you start at 'The Reset') and they are not feature complete. Yet somehow in the next 6 months they are going to finalize the code and debug the whole thing. :rolleyes:

Anyone want to start a pool on actual release date?

SiliconAddict
Apr 21, 2006, 12:39 AM
I have no doubt that I will buy Vista in time. I'm sure the foundation of Vista is solid. Its just that MS is FUBARing a number of things in Vista just as Apple FUBARed a number of things in 10.0 less we forget that Apple DID give 10.1 to all those beta testers who purchased 10.0. This is Microsoft's OS X. Its going to take a good 2-3 service packs to get it to a point that I'd shell out money on Vista but it will get there in time.

Eraserhead
Apr 21, 2006, 03:00 AM
I have no doubt that I will buy Vista in time. I'm sure the foundation of Vista is solid. Its just that MS is FUBARing a number of things in Vista just as Apple FUBARed a number of things in 10.0 less we forget that Apple DID give 10.1 to all those beta testers who purchased 10.0. This is Microsoft's OS X. Its going to take a good 2-3 service packs to get it to a point that I'd shell out money on Vista but it will get there in time.

I hope so for their sake, however I feel it's unlikely, there are too few original features over Mac OS X 10.4 now, even assuming all the bugs (eg the dialog thing) are completely and competently removed, OK so its better than XP in that case, but their are still only a few things OS X doesn't already have;

iSync between 2 PC's

IE 7.0 might well be good.

and from the cNet review

A World Clock (like on the iPod, so you know the time in multiple time zones)

A game software updater (but could be expanded to other programs easily, very useful)

Is that enough?

gauchogolfer
Apr 21, 2006, 03:10 AM
The mind boggles.
I'm hoping that they meant incessant. Just another example of how spell-checkers can let one down. ;)

angelneo
Apr 21, 2006, 03:11 AM
The mind boggles.
Oops, incessantly. Surprising, incest does looks good on there as well.

gauchogolfer
Apr 21, 2006, 03:13 AM
Sorry guys, but if you want to try to reswitch me, feel free to try.


I've never been a fan of these threads that say "I'm thinking of switching, convince me!". If you honestly think that Vista is better than Tiger/Leopard for your needs, then go ahead. I think you'll find that we'll still be here when you come back.

Photorun
Apr 21, 2006, 07:32 AM
to all those beta testers who purchased 10.0

Un, OS X 10.0 was free dude, check your facts, they didn't start charging until 10.1.

Photorun
Apr 21, 2006, 07:41 AM
I've never been a fan of these threads that say "I'm thinking of switching, convince me!". If you honestly think that Vista is better than Tiger/Leopard for your needs, then go ahead. I think you'll find that we'll still be here when you come back.

Usually these people are just disingenuous trolls that post a few times, try to build empathy, and then post something like "bye Mac, it's so much better to go Windoze!" Their ploy is simply to try to get converts, they never liked, and probably never even USED the Mac all along, their pandering is so thinly veiled I don't know why people in these boards even bother to respond to them. They never see the fact Windoze does nothing but copy the Apple's OS and every single time it's a weak implimentation made for the soulless Windoze lUser masses who think Microsoft invented the planet and Billy boy is god... but they're hollow shells, masters at marketing to idiots, there's one born every second, and they're buying a Dull because their buddy bought a Dull because those (bait and switch) ads said Dulls were good... etc. Basically they're making points of "choosing" a pale imitation. These idiots are no different than people who'd buy the cheap, fake, soulless iPods and still think they look cool. They don't get it, they never will, you can't reason with troglodytes, their minds were made up by fiat and bad reasoning, they won't see your cause even if it was perfectly reasoned, they don't want to.

Remember, do not feed the trolls. In either case, good riddance. I've seen Vista in Beta, it sucks, and there's already been viruses and a couple malware written for it DESPITE what the trolls posting here have said. M$, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

iGav
Apr 21, 2006, 08:23 AM
Un, OS X 10.0 was free dude, check your facts, they didn't start charging until 10.1.

No it wasn't.

OS X 10.1 was a free upgrade for people that purchased OS X 10.0.

nagromme
Apr 21, 2006, 12:22 PM
Usually these people are just disingenuous trolls that post a few times, try to build empathy, and then post something like "bye Mac, it's so much better to go Windoze!"
Could be, but my instinct says that if he IS a disingenuous troll, he's a disingenuous PRO-Mac troll (which is no better of course) :D

He talks about Vista becoming "almost" as good as Tiger (not Leopard). Damning with faint praise, much? And he says he'll switch IF there's no malware. Of course there will be, and he knows it. Also, he doesn't have the TRUE mark of a "fake Mac fan"--he doesn't parrot recent Mac "scandals." A true Windows troll would have dropped a line about Macs having viruses now, and probably dug up some negative financial analysis too.

So if he IS a troll at all, he sounds like a reverse troll: a Mac fan pretending to be drawn to the MS "light," but actually planning ahead to be "let down" by Vista and blown away by Leopard. So he can publicly post how Vista almost made him switch until it fell flat. Thus winning over some fence-sitters to Mac?

Sounds like too much work to me :p

killmoms
Apr 21, 2006, 08:12 PM
but their are still only a few things OS X doesn't already have;

A World Clock (like on the iPod, so you know the time in multiple time zones)
Clearly you've never looked at Dashboard.

Eraserhead
Apr 23, 2006, 07:46 AM
Clearly you've never looked at Dashboard.
Ah well i take it back, 2 original vista features then!

matticus008
Apr 23, 2006, 08:28 AM
You can't tell which window is foremost with that Aero glass that they're touting. :eek:

You just get a little red 'X' background on a giant window.
The whole glyph box has a different character to it than the others (he's using a stupid color scheme, by the way), the shadows are more pronounced, and the transparency effects are slightly different. Also, when the windows are not tiled, the overlap is pretty clear (and stacked transparent windows are handled just fine without mucking everything up).

For the record, identifying tiled windows in OS X is harder than it is in Vista, and Paul Thurrott would have to be painfully unobservant not to be able to tell the windows apart.

Edit: What I'd like to see, though, is a "dimming" effect for unfocused windows, like the background effect for Dashboard. Using Aero glass is actually very nice and their execution of transparency is really much more effective than Apple's quick pass at it a few years back.

nagromme
Apr 23, 2006, 11:02 AM
Using Aero glass is actually very nice and their execution of transparency is really much more effective than Apple's quick pass at it a few years back.

I've always liked the blur effect (seen long ago in Explorer for OS 9 in fact) and that does help. But in the end, their transparent window titles add nothing for usability... it just lets them say "Apple uses lots of glass in Aqua... so let's do it too, complete with glassy blue orbs... plus we'll find something they aren't using glass for (anymore) so we can put glass there and feel like we're breaking ground!" ;)

As for tiled windows in OS X, it's pretty moot: we don't HAVE to try to find windows by looking at little letterbox glimpses of the contents. With Exposé we can see the ENTIRE window contents, making finding one window much easier. Or, if they're all near-identical text and you need to find one by window title, the Window menu or Dock lists them that way. By comparison, tiling windows (resizing the borders of windows so they show LESS than normal--with tons or redundant menu bars wasting space) is quite awkward. Tastes will vary of course.

sam10685
Apr 23, 2006, 12:05 PM
Yeh, I think 10.5 willl clearly blow away Vista.

I hope so at least - it will really give Apple a chance ot shine, which will be nice for a change.

yep. there's no way vista will ever be as good or better than what Apple has to offer. i don't even really see vista one-uping Tiger.

sam10685
Apr 23, 2006, 12:12 PM
I have no doubt that I will buy Vista in time. I'm sure the foundation of Vista is solid. Its just that MS is FUBARing a number of things in Vista just as Apple FUBARed a number of things in 10.0 less we forget that Apple DID give 10.1 to all those beta testers who purchased 10.0. This is Microsoft's OS X. Its going to take a good 2-3 service packs to get it to a point that I'd shell out money on Vista but it will get there in time.

i wouldn't use vista on my computer if microsoft paid me double what it's worth.

matticus008
Apr 23, 2006, 01:23 PM
As for tiled windows in OS X, it's pretty moot: we don't HAVE to try to find windows by looking at little letterbox glimpses of the contents. With Exposť we can see the ENTIRE window contents, making finding one window much easier.
I agree 100%. I can't stand tiled windows in any operating system and would much rather just alt-tab or F12 my way through them. Incidentally, with Flip 3D or whatever they're calling it these days, much of that same functionality will be included with Vista.

True, transparency doesn't add anything useful, but it looks nice, and don't we all know Windows could use some of that ;). Really, though, seeing it in person (and experiencing giant memory leaks everywhere!) really makes you understand that screen shots don't convey how much nicer the "fit and finish" is with Vista--and it's not done yet. I hope Leopard brings some additional refinement to OS X--Aqua's been around for years, too.

Thunderbird
Apr 23, 2006, 02:14 PM
Paul Thurrott wrote:
"The problem with UAP is that it throws up an unbelievable number of warning dialogs for even the simplest of tasks. That these dialogs pop up repeatedly for the same action would be comical if it weren't so amazingly frustrating. It would be hilarious if it weren't going to affect hundreds of millions of people in a few short months. It is, in fact, almost criminal in its insidiousness."

and then...
"OK, let's not get silly here. I don't hate Windows Vista, and I certainly don't hate Microsoft for disappointing me and countless other customers with a product that doesn't even come close to meeting its original promises......
In some ways, Windows Vista actually will exceed Mac OS X and Linux, but not to the depth we were promised. Instead, Windows Vista will do what so many other Windows releases have done, and simply offer consumers and business users a few major changes and many subtle or minor updates. That's not horrible. It's just not what was promised."

So some aspects of Vista are "almost criminal" but just "not horrible". :)

I guess we'll have to wait (...and wait, and wait...) to see the final release, but I don't see how they are going to fix all the things Thurrott has complained about in the next 9 months. It will be an awfully painful birth.

And if they don't fix all those problems, all I can say is.....

Hasta La Vista, Baby !!

Timepass
Apr 23, 2006, 02:35 PM
As for tiled windows in OS X, it's pretty moot: we don't HAVE to try to find windows by looking at little letterbox glimpses of the contents. With Exposť we can see the ENTIRE window contents, making finding one window much easier. Or, if they're all near-identical text and you need to find one by window title, the Window menu or Dock lists them that way. By comparison, tiling windows (resizing the borders of windows so they show LESS than normal--with tons or redundant menu bars wasting space) is quite awkward. Tastes will vary of course.


I think it rather moot in both OS. Buy I believe you missed the point of what he was trying to say. That being if you have 2 windows side by side it is harder to tell in OSX which is active and which is inactive. It is pretty rare for a window user to tile there windows but it is comon to has 3 windows open none of them over laping in both OS. Just in OSX it is harder to tell which one is the active one.

It was more pointing out the fact that it is easier in Vista to find the active window than in OSX. and then XP blows them both out of the water in that respect on finding the active window. Personally I like how xp handles it.

Bosunsfate
Apr 23, 2006, 03:05 PM
Apple sticks to a release date and weather or not the stuff is ready for mass market they release it. 10.0 was not ready it was still in the beta zone. Late beta zone but still a beta. 10.1 is what 10.0 should of been.

While I agree with you on the beta vs general release I think you are wrong here. Apple sticking to a date more than to quality?:confused:

I think you have misinterpreted what is going on.

When you come up with an initial product design you have to build something that is simple and fit for purpose. This is what OS 10.0 was about. It had practically no features at all, but it achieved the desired result. Come up a with a totally new OS that would work, look beautiful, and provide a platform using new technology that would lead them into the next decade.

That new platform has allowed Apple to release new and better releases of OS X over the past five years and they have gotten better and better.

Now, look at M$. They are doing the opposite. They are throwing in all kinds of gold plating and have abondanded the foundation that was really going to change things.

And what did they throw away? The new file system. Which is what had the most potential for totally overshadowing OS X. Having thrown that away means Visita is no change at all.....just like Win95 (it was still DOS).

Bosunsfate
Apr 23, 2006, 03:09 PM
Frankly I don't know what in Vista will be better? Somoene care to comment?

Bosunsfate
Apr 23, 2006, 03:09 PM
Junk post. sorry.

SC68Cal
Apr 23, 2006, 03:51 PM
Wow, talk about going from slightly optimistic in the previous review articles to downright angry.

nagromme
Apr 23, 2006, 04:07 PM
It was more pointing out the fact that it is easier in Vista to find the active window than in OSX. and then XP blows them both out of the water in that respect on finding the active window. Personally I like how xp handles it.
OS X's metal-look Windows aren't great that way--especially if you use the Graphite theme.

One thing I'll give OS X credit for in that regard, though, is the blue glow that appears around the current text box/field. Nicer than looking for the cursor alone. I'm not sure how Vista handles that.

dops7107
Apr 23, 2006, 04:31 PM
OS X: "Aqua".

Vista: "Aero".

Hmmm. :rolleyes:

Eraserhead
Apr 24, 2006, 10:29 AM
Frankly I don't know what in Vista will be better? Somoene care to comment?

See my above post #56 (though the world clock is in OS X in the dashboard.)... I've also heard they are allowing Games direct access to the 3D hardware which should improve performance for gaming.

Disappointing though that they can't do that for the UI, which in the same review claims needs a $200 graphics card (eg. an X1600).

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1950556,00.asp

It's also much more bias than Paul's review, makes him look (almost) neutral.

Also I think the aero glass looks awful, i'd turn my graphics options down a notch those look much better.