Infiniti to launch in Europe

[iGav]

Whoopie do... :rolleyes:

As if the dynamism that is Lexus wasn't enough... we're now going to be blessed with the Infiniti 'luxury' brand. :rolleyes:

If you buy one of these (or a Lexus come to that) you should be tried for treason against proper marques.

Rinky dink link (http://www.autocarmag.com/news_article.asp?na_id=219625)

[iHotu]

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[takao]

i hope they come up with some good line up and don't "pull a Lexus" who can't get off their image problem thanks to their rip off designs

and i hope for them that they have some really decent diesel engines and station wagons ready

if not.. well better save the embarrassment


the 3 series, A4, C, Passat class of cars is perhaps the most fought for besides the Golf segment

[evoluzione]

have to disagree with you there iGav, i really like the FX45. not so much the other cars, but that, it really is different from all the Escalades, RR, Denalis, H2s etc. ever see one "in the flesh"?

now Lexus on the other hand, what pure crap that is.

[Abstract]

I think Infiniti shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Lexus. I do like the hardtop convertible, but they really do make boring cars. I don't even think that hardtop is manual.

On the other hand, Infiniti does try to make nice cars that are at least fun to drive. Whether you like the designs or not is a personal taste, of course. I don't, but I'll give them more credit than Lexus.

[blackfox]

I can't comment on Infiniti in the context of the European market, but stateside, I think Infiniti makes some of the more elegant-looking automobiles. I like the design direction both they and Nissan have gone in recent years - lots of curves.

The FX (as mentioned above), and the G and M sedans look pretty good.

I have never been a fan of Lexus, however, although I do like the IS.

Still prefer Audi or BMW, however...and I hope that one day Saab will be saved from it's cruel fate with GM. Thinking about what has happened to them, just makes me want to cry...

[bousozoku]

Infiniti and Lexus are both selling cars that their parent brands couldn't sell outside Japan otherwise. Nissan's Leopard is one of the most boring cars in Japan but call it an Infiniti I or M something and it sells somehow. The truth is that Infiniti has more trouble selling cars than Lexus does. Toyota has more successful expensive cars, I suppose.

The Toyota Soarer was always a winner but lately, it looks a lot better as the SC300/SC400 hardtop convertible.

Do they drive as nicely? I wonder, since even my VW Golf has better steering feel and response than most cars twice as expensive. I've never known a Japanese car to feel good, even if it was capable.

[decksnap]

Whoopie do... :rolleyes:

As if the dynamism that is Lexus wasn't enough... we're now going to be blessed with the Infiniti 'luxury' brand. :rolleyes:

If you buy one of these (or a Lexus come to that) you should be tried for treason against proper marques.

Rinky dink link (http://www.autocarmag.com/news_article.asp?na_id=219625)

Soo... what do you have against Infiniti? I'm trying to understand. These are much nicer cars than Passats and such.

[iHotu]

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[Lord Blackadder]

I don't think that Infiniti is quite equal to the Germans' best, but they are more interesting than Lexus. The G35 coupe is a better 350Z. I like the VQ engine as well. I don't care much for the FX45 but I think SUVs are crap so there you go.

Here in the states I think that Infiniti has a strong brand image independent of Nissan, moreso than Lexus-Toyota. Still, for my money I'd probably go with zee Germans.

My guess is that the Europeans will be more suspicious of the new brand than America has been.

[w_parietti22]

I like infinitis. :o plus im probably getting ours (G20) once my dad buys a new car. They have improved a lot in the past couple years.

[decksnap]

You can't really group all 'zee Germans' together. IMO, most Volkswagens these days are crap, while Audi makes some really nice cars.

[Lord Blackadder]

I'm talking about luxury brands here - VW is sort of a grey area. The Phaeton is certainly an amazing luxo-barge, but I'm referring more specifically to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes.

I liked the G20 but it had one flaw - not enough power. In the US we get the normally aspirated SR20DE with only 140hp or so. It's still a nice car - but it could have been a real hot item with more power, like the 200+hp SR20DE. Unfortunately Nissan never bothered to make that engine emissions-legal in the US.

[iGav]

Whoopsie, I forgot about this thread... as soon as I get 10 I'll write why I dislike these type of 'marques' (and I use that term loosely). heh.

[Lord Blackadder]

I also think that they should get rid of these "luxury brands". The Japanese manufacturers already have a high reputation - why bother trying to make another brand that will confuse stupid people and make the rest of us cynical?

Subaru, for instance, makes some expensive cars that qualify as luxury cars (Tribeca, H6 Legacys), but they don't need a new made-up brand to sell them...I think that the luxury branding is just a way to get us to pay through the nose for a badge-engineered Camry (Lexus ES300 anyone? :rolleyes: ).

[jaydub]

They have no reason to get rid of the luxury brands because they're obviously profitable. Also, why would they not create a secondary brand if they wanted to focus more on luxury features and, of course, a higher price? Audi and VW were mentioned (I'm a hardcore dubber) but for some reason they aren't mentioned when it comes to sharing parts. You can get the same engine in a GTI that you can in an A4. Surprising? No. If there's a market for it, the car manufacturers would be stupid not to take advantage. Just because it doesn't necessarily appeal to everyone doesn't mean it isn't a success.

Infiniti launching in Europe, in my view, is a positive thing because now they can bring over cars with a different feel without having people say "Wow, Nissan has changed!" It's a great way to go a different route without compromising the values of the parent brand.

Besides, VW's and Audis are far more similar than people are leading on. :)

[Lord Blackadder]

I just don't like badge engineering, that;s alll.

Audi and VW do share lots of parts but they are generally less similar than Lexus/Toyota or Acura/Hona. My big beef is that I feel like they are trying to fool me - I know that an Infiniti is a Nissan, so why don't they just call it a Nissan? What's wrong with Nissan?

Yes, branding works, but I don't have to like it. :rolleyes: ;)

[jaydub]

Yes, branding works, but I don't have to like it. :rolleyes: ;)
Absolutely! :)

I do see the distinction you make between VW/Audi and Lexus/Toyota.

[iGav]

I do see the distinction you make between VW/Audi and Lexus/Toyota.

The biggest distinction however is that VW didn't create Audi as a luxury brand. ;)

[jaydub]

The biggest distinction however is that VW didn't create Audi as a luxury brand. ;)
Of course. It's funny how the aspirations of most VW diehards are to eventually move up to an Audi. :D

[cycocelica]

I agree that the branding is stupid. But most Americans are obsessed with brands. You don't really see a lot of that in Europe and Japan. Everything is Honda or Toyota. I own a 2006 Lexus IS350, and I actually think that is much more of a luxury car than any Toyota will ever be. To some extent Lexus's are Toyotas with a different badge but I believe that the Lexus brand is very nice and has features and quality a Toyota doesnt. Plus there is not really an equivalent of a Toyota to the IS.

[AJ Muni]

I also have a G35 coupe, black on black and I looooooooove it. I have no complaints whatsoever. I love driving down ocean drive in it here in south beach. Girls seem to like it alot too ;)

[Lord Blackadder]

Plus there is not really an equivalent of a Toyota to the IS.

It was originally called the Toyota Altezza in Japan...

[cycocelica]

It was originally called the Toyota Altezza in Japan...

Yes I know that, hence the name given to the tail lights. But I meant in the United States. There is not equivalent of the IS with a Toyota badge in the United States.

[Lord Blackadder]

Yes I know that, hence the name given to the tail lights. But I meant in the United States. There is not equivalent of the IS with a Toyota badge in the United States.

But the badge is irrelevant. The Lexus IS is a Toyota. Why can't they just sell it as a Toyota?

Basically this is telling me that people are incapable of discerning quality, so it must be spelled out for them with special luxury badges. :rolleyes:

[iHotu]

…

[Hoef]

I'd think that most Europeans would be sceptic to buy a spin off from a value brand. Folks in the US may see a Lexus, Europeans see it as a Toyota, why wouldn't they see a Nissan for Infinity.

The strangest thing about Lexus here in the US is that its positioned as affordable luxury, an oxymoron.

[gekko513]

Basically this is telling me that people are incapable of discerning quality, so it must be spelled out for them with special luxury badges. :rolleyes:
And this comes as a surprise to you?

[quagmire]

I'd think that most Europeans would be sceptic to buy a spin off from a value brand. Folks in the US may see a Lexus, Europeans see it as a Toyota, why wouldn't they see a Nissan for Infinity.

The strangest thing about Lexus here in the US is that its positioned as affordable luxury, an oxymoron.


Then what does Cadillac and Lincoln supposed to compete against? :p So we have Cadillac just launching in Europe. So far it was met with a moot response from Europeans from what I have read. I expect worse if not the same with Infiniti. The thing with Cadillac is that it has its own styling and not just juiced up Chevy vehicle like Infiniti is with Nissan.

[cycocelica]

But the badge is irrelevant. The Lexus IS is a Toyota. Why can't they just sell it as a Toyota?

Basically this is telling me that people are incapable of discerning quality, so it must be spelled out for them with special luxury badges. :rolleyes:

I suspect you don't live in the United States (sorry if I am wrong) but yes it basically must be spelled out with a badge. Look at Rolex, Oakley, Prada, and so. These are top of the line items and the badges and names prove it. Its not that people are incapable of discerning quality, I believe it is more of a way to show off. If you have the moeny I saw flaunt it, I mean if I had the money to buy a Aston Martin I would. I personally purchased the IS 350 because Lexus/Toyota are very reliable and the IS suited my needs very well.

[Lord Blackadder]

Yes, I am an American, but an outward-looking one. :)

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with buying an IS (well, they don't offer a manual with the 6 cylinder, that is a bummer). It's a great car. But why can't it be a Toyota IS 350?

I suspect you don't live in the United States (sorry if I am wrong) but yes it basically must be spelled out with a badge. Look at Rolex, Oakley, Prada, and so. These are top of the line items and the badges and names prove it.

Except that so many people have knock-offs and really can't tell the difference themselves, or don't care (In the case of clothes, the knock-offs may actually be made in the same sweatshops). That's the thing that gets me. It's a proven fact that you could sell a turd if it was branded the right way. This does not paint a good picture of the average consumer.

Most of the Infinitis, Lexus and Acuras are good cars - some are very good indeed. But many (most?) people who buy them couldn't tell a good car if one
ran over their toe. Again, I'm not knocking your purchase.

Badge engineering is bad. I only need one example to prove this: the Cadillac Cimarron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron). :eek:

[takao]

well the thing is that the european market is a completely different one.. especially in germany/austria

mercedes and bmw have market shares around 8-11 percent .. both of them... the VW group (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda etc.) around 35-40 %

Nissan is around 1-2 % .. Toyota perhaps 4 %

and Nissan is hardly famous for reliability or quality


and there are other known brands out there as well ranging over Opel, Renault, Peugeot, Alfa, Saab with good eye-catching designs


well perhaps they somehow magically can come up with some diesel powered station wagons ... if they plan on launching with the current line up without diesels or wagons then they will screw up like Lexus only worse since toyota is more famous than nissan

[Lord Blackadder]

Here in the states driving is cheap, and BMW/Mercedes/Audi are a lot more expensive than Toyota/Nissan etc. VW is seen as a Yuppie, slightly upmarket vehicle that is a cut above the domestics. But they are a little on the small side for many Americans used to large The Japanese cars like the Camry/Altima are big, better built than a domestic and are a lot cheaper than a similar sized German luxury sedan. The compact car/hatchback market is still seen as a poor-man's ride by many, though that is slowly changing. Most people prefer a mid-sized sedan or SUV with a V6. With the base 3-series (and similar Audis and Mercs) over $30 grand, a big V6 Camry/Accord/Altima/Impala/Fusion with more power than the 3-series and lots of base features for less money is the way to go. The quality isn't the same, but most people don't notice or care. Also cars lake the Camry demand less money to keep them on the road.

I would love to see Skoda/Seat here because they would compete favorably in the Civic/Golf/Focus market. And I would buy an Alfa Romeo if they sold them here.

The domestics (Ford, Chevy, Daimler-Chrysler) sell cars by offering massive discounts, lobbying for tariffs and appealing to patriotism. Notice that I didn't include build quality, economy or performance in there. :rolleyes: there are exxceptions to this but on the whole the US car industry has not listened to consumers and people are shopping elswere (except for trucks) except when they have a firesale.

Nissan has built a lot of good cars. In the states the 90's Maxima, Altima and Sentra were decent compact to mid-size sedans with some goodies that car enthusiasts liked, like optional limited slip diffs, manual transmission optional on the V6 Maxima (similar cars like the Camry/Taurus were less exciting and did not offer a manual/V6 combo all the time), and several nice engines like the SR20DE and VQ30DE. Overall they are on par with Honda and Toyota, though the latter two have a stronger brand image.

Sorry, this is a bit of a ramble...:o

[takao]

Here in the states driving is cheap, and BMW/Mercedes/Audi are a lot more expensive than Toyota/Nissan etc. VW is seen as a Yuppie, slightly upmarket vehicle that is a cut above the domestics. But they are a little on the small side for many Americans used to large The Japanese cars like the Camry/Altima are big, better built than a domestic and are a lot cheaper than a similar sized Germabn luxury sedan.

they don't even sell the camry around here ;)

I would love to see Skoda/Seats here because they would compete favorably in the Civic/Golf/Focus market.

i was more thinking about the Skoda Oktavia/Superb (who both are still on their old design) .. both are cheaper than the VW counterparts and normally better stock interiours...


and design wise there are always the Alfas, Peugeots, Citroen and Renaults around , who no matter how you turn it are still still have the design/emotion edge over the japanese brands (is there anything more boring than a Honda ?)

edit: V6/v8 don't really matter much

[Lord Blackadder]

they don't even sell the camry around here ;)

I doubt people would want it there. It is reliable, reasonably powerful, big, has a soft ride and is boring as can be. Also it has a thirsty V6 which is fine here but not in Europe.

Oddly enough, Honda/Acura is considered an exciting brand in the US. Cars like the Civic and Integra/RSX ride on the reputation of the tuner crowd and are considered a young-people's car. I gather that the opposite is true in Europe.

Isn't the Octavia based on the VW Bora/Jetta platform?

As to the French cars...for some reason we can buy Japanese but can't bring ourselves to drive French cars even though we are traditional allies... go figure. Of course I've never heard that US brands are doing well in France either.

[iGav]

Oddly enough, Honda/Acura is considered an exciting brand in the US.

I've read that before, though if that were true of Honda... then surely it begs the question why the need for Acura? Which are badged as Honda's for the rest of the world, see NSX and Accord (which is badged as the Acura TSX and is a shameful rip of the Alfa 156).

I gather that the opposite is true in Europe.

heheh. Yep.

[cycocelica]

Yes, I am an American, but an outward-looking one. :)

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with buying an IS (well, they don't offer a manual with the 6 cylinder, that is a bummer). It's a great car. But why can't it be a Toyota IS 350?



Except that so many people have knock-offs and really can't tell the difference themselves, or don't care (In the case of clothes, the knock-offs may actually be made in the same sweatshops). That's the thing that gets me. It's a proven fact that you could sell a turd if it was branded the right way. This does not paint a good picture of the average consumer.

Most of the Infinitis, Lexus and Acuras are good cars - some are very good indeed. But many (most?) people who buy them couldn't tell a good car if one
ran over their toe. Again, I'm not knocking your purchase.

Badge engineering is bad. I only need one example to prove this: the Cadillac Cimarron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron). :eek:

Well I am glad you are an out-ward looking one:D . I just saw that you were a Blackadder fan and pretty much anyone I talk to about that show has no idea what I am talking about. Sad really.

Continuing, I see where you are coming from. I agree that many people have knock offs of everything. I totally agree that badge engineering is bad, because if it had a been a Toyota IS350 I still would have bought it. But some people I have talked to would never do that. Someone said they liked the ES series and I said why not save some money and buy a Camry and they said because thats made by Toyota, Lexus means luxury. I have sat in both and quiet frankly, there is not much of a difference. I am all for getting rid of the luxury badges. I mean look at Ford, they have 2 "semi" luxury brands (I use the term luxury loosely). Hell I know some people who didnt even know Ford owned Lincoln.

Side note for you Blackadder: They do make a manual V6 IS250. A very fun car to drive, I just wish they would have made a manual IS320, it would probably be one of the most fun cars to drive.

[Lord Blackadder]

Side note for you Blackadder: They do make a manual V6 IS250. A very fun car to drive, I just wish they would have made a manual IS320, it would probably be one of the most fun cars to drive.

Whoops, I forgot that the 250 is a 6-pot engine too. I drooled when they announced that 3.5 liter version, but they really should include an optional manual. I like to row my own gears. :)


I've read that before, though if that were true of Honda... then surely it begs the question why the need for Acura? Which are badged as Honda's for the rest of the world, see NSX and Accord (which is badged as the Acura TSX and is a shameful rip of the Alfa 156).

I'm just as confused as you. Honda has a very strong performance/economy/reliability image in the US - really has absolutely no need for another brand. Instead of silly names like Acura RSX and TSX, they should be called the Integra and Accord Euro R, like they are elsewhere. I get suspicious when cars have too many Rs Ss and Xs in their names - or GT. Everything has a GT model these days, and it has lost it's meaning.

[cycocelica]

Whoops, I forgot that the 250 is a 6-pot engine too. I drooled when they announce that 3.5 liter version, but they really should include an optional manual. I like to row my own gears. :)
You and me both. It feels weird not shifting. They have those paddles on the steering wheel but it not nearly the same.