Apple's Unix Future... [Archive]

Gelfin

Feb 8, 2002, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by Kid Red
Does this mean we might actually get some fricking app support? Seems no one cares about the mac anymore, bastards!

Hunh. And here it seems to me like support for the Mac is growing like it hasn't done in I don't know when. Slowly, to be sure, but it's happening. Until about six months ago, I don't think I ever saw an article that started, "I'm a die-hard PC user, but I checked out Mac OS X and [insert complimentary review here]." Now it seems like every other week there's a new article exactly like that.

Considering what a major change in direction OS X represents, the software is practically flooding in. Trust me, the conversion from Classic to OS X is going MUCH faster than the conversion from 16 to 32-bit Windows did (actually, since Windows Me -still- had some of the vestigal 16-bit code base, you might say they only just now finished the process, seven years later). Most of the major apps you'd need are either available or on the way, and the gaming area at MWSF was HUGE. I'd say it was at least three times last year's size.

Stick with your Mac, and give it a little time. Jeez, I'm going to sound like a marketing drone here, but this is probably the best time ever to be a Mac user. Apple's done a lot of very big things very right in the last couple of years, and it seems like it's all starting to finally come together. Just have to wait for enough of "the 95%" to notice.

Proton

Feb 8, 2002, 04:31 AM

Well I'm currently a window user, I strayed from the path to go to windows 4 - windows 2000 - and now windows xp... what a load of crap... I'ts like a facelift gone bad. I like my system pretty with all the bells and whistles I can find, but with windows xp they did all that but forgott to think first. I love mac and have allways been looking back to see if what's happening, will there be a time when I will look back and say it's time to return to my cult? Whell gues what. I've been following the succes of X and let me tell you it didn't start of so great, but now.... wow. This digital hup idea is great, Unix rocks... Windows XP may have done alot to change the gap between usability and look and feel, but common they havent scratched the surfice of X... X seem extreemly staple. It's fast and gorgeas...

Would you trust a system that can't even remember what kind of icon should be assotiated with an app? I mean sometime when I'-m working I look at my quick launch bar and to my dismay I see some of the icons have changed?? This sometimes happens on the desktop to. It seams that this is a huge problem. XP is sold on the fact that it's richer in graphics and is robust... yeh right.... thats why I get the blue screen all the time..
The fact that the system is so badly written for the visualy loving.
Try this. In windows xp go to Display prop. go to appearans. then go to advanced... I'm not retarded so I want my quick launch bar to be slimmer, and by doing that I totaly **** up the lush icons.. would this happen on a mac... no...why ... Theyre not retards.

Well I could go on and tell you endless stories....

Thanks Bill & thanks Ballmer for showing me how stupid I have been to listen to your brain dead scouts of the Microsoft monapoly.

Steve I coming back...
iMac is astounding, dual is great.... But I want G5.
Keep on the good work steve.... apple 1 Microsucks 0

b8rtm8nn

Feb 8, 2002, 05:42 AM

In complete agreement. XP Home is an improvement for the common man that is clueless about machines - compared to Millenium. But XP Pro is a joke! I actually think it is slower than 2000 in real work relaed tasks. And the fact that crappy interface is on by default really irks me.

The Unix core has enabled me to recommend Macs to coworkers and end users alike. OSX is beautiful and even if it is rough around the edges, it is ten fold more stable than OS9 or below. I just cannot wait to see the future changes to Server X and related HW, I might actually put one in production if they keep the improvements up.

Schep

Feb 8, 2002, 06:34 AM

Like would say XP is just 2000 with fisher price colors

Macmaniac

Feb 8, 2002, 06:41 AM

I now alot of windows people and none of them have gone to XP. If Microsoft keeps releasing apps that are upgrades to XP then everyone will switch to Mac after Win 2000 becomes old. They don't want to use the XP crap it shouldn't be long before we see more converts.

___________________________
Not all who wander are lost.

agreenster

Feb 8, 2002, 07:46 AM

I think Steve is making a big mistake for not pursuing the entertainment market.

Imagine if you will....its May of 2004 (or '03) and the average consumer gets home from a long day at work. He/she eats dinner with their family/wife/ husband, or kids, and afterwards decide to kick back and enjoy some evening entertainment.

Instead of just hittin' the couch and the remote to randomly surf, they launch their iMac, more specifically -iTheater, connect via the internet to whatever movie, sports game, or TV show that has played in the last 48 hours, or is in their 'favorite movie' download folder on their desktop. Then, it is streamed via infared or AirPort (or whatever will be out by that time) to their 60 inch SONY-plasma HDTV, where they then hit the couch and grab their Apple remote, which controls the iMac that is in the den three rooms away. Coupled with their Harman Kardon surround-sound system, they have a true home theater.

If they dont do it, Microsoft will. Its the Holy Grail of home computers, and Apple has repeatedly denied the idea of venturing into this market. The only thing that makes me feel better is Steve Job's statement that there are still lots of suprises in store for Apple. I sure as he|| hope this is it.

Unregistered

Feb 8, 2002, 07:58 AM

2004 ... yeh whatever dude, keep dreamin'

agreenster

Feb 8, 2002, 08:08 AM

Okay, its understandable to be pessimistic--point taken.

But honestly, most of the technology is already there. MPEG4 movies are EVERYWHERE online, HD's are certainly big enough to hold compressed (or somtimes uncompressed) movies, TiVo has proven that it can be practical, and digitally recording broadcast TV is done all the time at people's homes. AirPort can stream. Wireless mice are everywhere, and thats could easily be transferred to a remote control.

Whats left? The signal between the TV and the iMac seems like the biggest hurdle, but if Apple and Sony worked together, or worked a deal, I bet it could be done with a quickness.

2004? Why not? Thats two years away. I thought I was being generous.

jayscheuerle

Feb 8, 2002, 08:10 AM

Or maybe after dinner they actually DO something together instead of ingesting a desert of electronic opium....

Everyone makes their own fun, if you don't make it, it's called entertainment.

agreenster

Feb 8, 2002, 08:29 AM

Good freakin-grief. Thats not my point. Did I say somewhere in my posts that EVERYONE should do NOTHING but sit and watch TV? Man, I dont mean to get upset, but for creep's sakes-I was just making a scenario where people could use their ******** iMac as a home entertainment hub. What, do you think people DONT watch TV? God. I'm as big of a 'get out and do something' advocate as the next person, but lets not deny the fact that people WATCH movies, and LISTEN to music, and enjoy the arts. (term used loosely)

Besides, we are talking about MAC here- quit changing the subject. Gimme a break. This forum thread is about the MAC being a entertainment hub, not a discussion about the laziness and obeisity of America. Jesus man, if you want that, go to "ILoveMountainBiking.com" Dont bring it here.

I know Im coming off as a total *ss here, but c'mon. Im just advocating the iMac as an entertainment hub, and no one seems to want to make any comments--just changing the subject. Who freakin' cares if its 2004 or 3004--or whether or not it is 'good for the family.' What do you think about the IDEA people?

blakespot

Feb 8, 2002, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by Gelfin

Hunh. And here it seems to me like support for the Mac is growing like it hasn't done in I don't know when. Slowly, to be sure, but it's happening. Until about six months ago, I don't think I ever saw an article that started, "I'm a die-hard PC user, but I checked out Mac OS X and [insert complimentary review here]." Now it seems like every other week there's a new article exactly like that.

Considering what a major change in direction OS X represents, the software is practically flooding in. Trust me, the conversion from Classic to OS X is going MUCH faster than the conversion from 16 to 32-bit Windows did (actually, since Windows Me -still- had some of the vestigal 16-bit code base, you might say they only just now finished the process, seven years later). Most of the major apps you'd need are either available or on the way, and the gaming area at MWSF was HUGE. I'd say it was at least three times last year's size.

Stick with your Mac, and give it a little time. Jeez, I'm going to sound like a marketing drone here, but this is probably the best time ever to be a Mac user. Apple's done a lot of very big things very right in the last couple of years, and it seems like it's all starting to finally come together. Just have to wait for enough of "the 95%" to notice.

Well said, Gelfin.

blakespot

StuPid QPid

Feb 8, 2002, 09:00 AM

What with Steve emphasizing UNIX in MacOSX, does this mean we can expect an Apple Branded Workstation sometime in the near future?
What with the acquisitions of some of these previously UNIX based movie software companies, this may make sense. This could be a nice, profitable niche market to enter, competing with SGI, Sun etc. This would make infinitely more sense than trying to enter the already crowded and loss-making PDA market.
With the G5 coming sometime this year, I could see the opportunity to offer a OS X based top-range ?quad model workstation. As a workstation, Apple could also afford to up their margins little...
Anyway, just thinking aloud....

Unregistered

Feb 8, 2002, 09:19 AM

So what are we calling a workstation these days? Does my new DP800 qualify? It's certainly faster than my sun "workstation" on my desk at work (and a *lot* more stylish to boot).

These days when someone says workstation I just envision a slower pizza box with a larger price tag...I'd trade my sun workstation for a mac anytime!

Now, what I would really like to see is a rack mount server version running OS X Server. I think that's what will make it possible to move some macs into the mainstream computing environment.

agreenster

Feb 8, 2002, 09:32 AM

Glad to see someone not say that Apple runs the movie studios--it is an SGI world out there. Its also no suprise that Steve's other company, Pixar, is ALL SGI and Unix (and the occasional IBM Workstation for Maya-they use proprietary software for animation -all in Unix- though).

It WILL be interesting to see if a 64bit G5 Quad Workstation will be available for high-high-high end users, once OSX is caught up to BeOS and Linux. It's close, but still has some bugs to work out. I know OSX will never BE Linux or BeOS, but compatible enough so that power users in the Animation/Movie industry will be able to incorporate OSX into their pipeline very efficiently, without stopping production.

I wonder if it's Steve's agenda to eventually get Pixar to move solely to Apple? Im not sure thats a good move, but who knows? Pixar seems to be setting the standard in the world of 3D computing, especially with their rendering software, RenderMan. Everyone uses RenderMan. I'd love to see THAT ported to the Mac. The day that happens, Apple could be very widely used in the studios.

OSeXy!

Feb 8, 2002, 09:59 AM

I like what Steve is doing... And I think both 'consumer' and 'pro' markets potentially have more in common than some like to believe.

The point of 'true' workstations is that they can be scaled up and/or reconfigured easily, as needed. The Unix-OS X/PPC combo looks great here. Already people are discovering how easy it is to put together ad-hoc renderfarms of G4s and G3s in combination under OS X. Much easier than Linux, where machines typically need to be equally matched for the chain to function properly...

But the PPC's other major plus-point is its miserly power consumption in relation to its computing power. As I understand it this fact (and many other things) makes it a great chip for 'embedding' in consumer products.

Now combine the two: instead of a lab or a graphics house, substitute an ordinary house, full of not just networked, but interlaced gadgets which know how to work together. Whatever new product you add to the matrix is 'recognised' by all the others, and can interact with them on an equal footing...

That reality is a couple of years away. But I'll bet "GigaWire", or whatever the new wireless protocol turns out to be, makes both possible -- high end and low. PPC 85xx chips will be developed for both, and will transform both...

Please! GO FOR IT APPLE!

Unregistered

Feb 8, 2002, 10:01 AM

Speaking of Mac rack mount equimpment ( and its actual near total non existence) I would like to put out a dream spec of a rack mac that would be able to compete in the server and cluster markets.

1 It should be updated to replace the current tower and be designed to serve for both tower and rack.

2: It should offer a drop down front panel and behind that it should have accessible up to 6 hot swappable 3.5 inch drives to accomadate all kinds of raid configurations.

3: The front view width and height should not change much but the depth should change to allow more modularization of the insides.

4: The motherboard should allow the modular addition of cpu modules. These modules should be dual processors have have local main memory of at least 4 slots of DDR266 at least. The motherboard should accept from 1 to 4 of these cpu modules.

4A: Based upon the trendline of performance of the current dual 1Gig systems that should be capable of between 6 and 15 Gigaflops, the projected G5 systems should be capable of 10 to 20 Gigs at 1 Gigahertz, a Quad system should deliver 20-40 Gigaflops and if the systems can get to 2.5 Gigahertz then a quad could perform at 50-100 Gigs. 2, 7 foot rackmounts of these and you can have a Teraflop Mac

5: The motherboard should act as the IO distributor . The pci bus should become PCIX with 4 slots of 64bit/66 Mhz, 2 slots of 64 bit/100 MHZ and 1 slot of 64 bit/133 Mhz, 7 slots. There should be 2 AGP video slots. There should be 2 Giga ethernet, 4 1394B Firewire and 4 USB2 ports + airportX.

6: The power supply should be modular with hot swappable N+1 sections.

7: The main case should contain all components and the lid should have none. The current case is 17x 9 x 18.4 inches. It should go to about 17x9x24 inches to meet these changes.

If Apple could deliver a decent crate that would be functionally competitive in the server and cluster arenas then the Unix part of OSX could really gain a foothold.

OSeXy!

Feb 8, 2002, 10:17 AM

Sounds good. And possible. :-}

kablooie

Feb 8, 2002, 10:24 AM

Isn't it ironic that the computer designed specifically for non-technical users is becoming popular with the uber-technical Unix users.

agreenster

Feb 8, 2002, 10:36 AM

Dont forget, in order for a computer for to be user-friendly, you have to have really smart, nerdy people making them that way........computers dont work by magic. There's still code in there....Ü Its just that now Unix is the new, better toy.

By the way, are you familiar with 'Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie?' Points for anyone who knows where thats from.......

cryptochrome

Feb 8, 2002, 10:47 AM

I find Steve's recent comments to be perplexing. He's made a big fuss over the whole mac-as-the-digital-hub-of-your-digital-lifestyle thing, which he is delivering with the iApps, but not the iProducts. People watch TV more than just about anything else, but apple isn't working on on an iBox that will work with your set. People need their data and communicate on the road sometimes, but apple isn't working on an iPDA or iMobile. Which part of my digital lifestyle ARE they addressing?

Saying the market isn't developed for a particular product isn't a very good reason for not pursuing it. I thought apple was supposed to be the great innovator, trailblazer, and packager. Creating markets where there were none before, developing new technologies, and turning promising applications into really useful ones.

Maybe it's true that apple is working on a portable device that can do PDA things but is mostly about interacting with your computer remotely, which they're not calling a PDA due to Steve's semantics. I hope so. Leading professional markets like science and entertainment is great, but if they're going to talk digital lifestyle they'd better do more than iPod. They risk being left behind when Microsoft and Sony come out with their next generation game consoles, which are going to be serious TV convergence boxes (Games, Music, DVD, PVR, and Internet). It was no coincidence that the UltimateTV developers moved over to the Xbox team. All the more reason to team up with Sony I guess - except they are their primary competition.

cryptochrome

Feb 8, 2002, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by agreenster
Dont forget, in order for a computer for to be user-friendly, you have to have really smart, nerdy people making them that way........computers dont work by magic. There's still code in there....Ü Its just that now Unix is the new, better toy.

By the way, are you familiar with 'Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie?' Points for anyone who knows where thats from.......

Calvin and Hobbes, of course.

StuPid QPid

Feb 8, 2002, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by agreenster
By the way, are you familiar with 'Hamster Huey and the Gooey Kablooie?' Points for anyone who knows where thats from.......

Why, it's Calvin's favorite bedtime read...

agreenster

Feb 8, 2002, 10:56 AM

Quote from above:
Saying the market isn't developed for a particular product isn't a very good reason for not pursuing it. I thought apple was supposed to be the great innovator, trailblazer, and packager. Creating markets where there were none before, developing new technologies, and turning promising applications into really useful ones.

Absolutely freakin yes hallelujah amen. What a cop-out for Steve. "Well, the market isnt seeing a resonse from these innovations" -because no one has INNOVATED it good enough yet. Apple, goddamnit, thats your JOB!

agreenster

Feb 8, 2002, 10:57 AM

Okay okay, so it was an easy one.......I forgot most Apple-heads are typically also Calvin-heads. Ever wonder why that is?

b8rtm8nn

Feb 8, 2002, 11:11 AM

I think that rack mount config is nice, but overboard. I am sure a super server (which is what your machine looks like) is nice, but at this point, all I would need to actually buy a Mac Server is the redundancy in power supplies and NICs that is lacking in the current systems.

Unregistered

Feb 8, 2002, 12:28 PM

I'd never touch a mac before os x. I've used both linux and bsd as desktops for years.

In 2001, I spent over $5000 on macs. For my home :)

Its going to take 5-10 years, but OS X will change the market. I don't see them displacing microsoft, but their 5% share could easily grow to 15% in the next 60 months.

Gelfin

Feb 8, 2002, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by agreenster
Glad to see someone not say that Apple runs the movie studios--it is an SGI world out there. Its also no suprise that Steve's other company, Pixar, is ALL SGI and Unix (and the occasional IBM Workstation for Maya-they use proprietary software for animation -all in Unix- though).

The interesting thing here is, SGI has been on the ropes for a few years now. Most of their graphics brain trust left and went to... NVIDIA. So NVIDIA has been producing some kick-ass 3D technology, but not the computer system to wrap around it. Now here's Steve, who runs both a Hollywood graphics company and a computer company, but his graphics guys don't use his computers. That's got to itch a little.

This same Steve, as it turns out, also once ran a UNIX workstation company, which failed, but arguably because it was too far ahead of its time. Regardless, Steve's present computer company owns the assets of the workstation company, and has used those assets to produce possibly the best operating system ever unleashed on the public.

At the same time, NVIDIA has just turned out an un-be-freaking-lievable new graphics chip, and Apple has cozied up so close to NVIDIA that their products actually show up in Macs before they do in PCs.

Not only that, but Steve somehow managed to talk Alias|Wavefront into becoming an "early adopter" of Mac OS X, and to port their expensive and popular professional 3D software to the platform. Many pundits have suggested that the Maya/OS X project is doomed because Hollywood folks aren't using Macs. I think maybe they've missed the point. Especially now that we see Steve seems to have snapped up a whole company dedicated to professional Hollywood graphics software, which heretofore produced their software for Irix and Wintel only.

With SGI's prolonged stumbling, and Intergraph completely defunct with regard to hardware, there's an enormous vacuum in the industry, with an almost unimaginable amount of revenue just waiting for the right company to come along and offer a complete solution. The only piece of the puzzle missing here is the G5. Many people have complained bitterly about the seeming delays in getting G5s out, but it could be that Steve is biding his time, getting all the pieces in place, and staging a major coup in the high-end professional market. MWNY would be a fantastic place to announce such a beast, since the NY crowd has a higher media industry skew than even San Francisco. I can't guarantee Steve's going to DO this astonishing thing, but he's certainly positioned himself well for it.

<MrBurns>Eeeeeexcellent</MrBurns>

Joey2000

Feb 8, 2002, 01:08 PM

Gelfin my man
..

EXACTALLY...

the time is right...

every major VFX house ive been to in the past year is intentionally moving AWAY from SGI (some even talk about it publically.. see Dreamworks & HP-Linux)...

in most cases to Linux....
but a move to OSX is not a dramatic leap from this current stance....

They want to move. can steve give them the platform?

PyroTurtle

Feb 8, 2002, 02:22 PM

anyone ever use RenderMan?
how about see the code?
it has suport for up to 32 Procesors at a time...
i think that Unix aspect will come into play around june and july really, there's some big unix stuff hapening this summer and some new kernel's due out as well, plus, it's the end of the school year so all the new college apps should be out.
i think we could see some interesting, maybe even new, apple products around that time

iRemote, iCard, PDA that's really an apple remote that's really a PDA....that would be nice

macattack

Feb 8, 2002, 02:30 PM

Some comments. First, this is my first post on this board. I've been a die hard Microsoft user since DOS! I used Macs in grade school and high school (PowerMac first introduced my senior year). I always hated them. Programmed in BASIC and Pascal. Hated the OS and didn't care for the hardware. Went to college and really got into Windows (95), was a beta tester. It was such a leap over 3.1 :) Always hated Netscape and when IE 2 came out, I made the switch. Been using IE since then, all the way up to 6. I majored in MIS and upon graduation, went to work in an IT department supporting Windows mostly. We have UNIX and Mac, but I never wanted anything to do with them. I spearheaded the charge to Windows 2000 from a mixture of 95 and mostly NT 4. I still believe Windows 2000 to be the best OS ever built. Anyway, when Windows XP came out, I evaluated it for the company and personally. Quickly came to the conclusion that Microsoft dropped the ball BIG TIME! Win XP is a step or two back from Win 2000 in terms of performance, reliability, compatibility, and stability. Visually, it's cluttered and not very elegant. Also hate Office XP too, for what it's worth. Just really bad bloatware. So when the iMac was released, I couldn't help but pay attention. It is the most gorgeous computer I've ever seen! That made me want to take a look at OS X. I remember when OS X was released last year, but other than the dock and aqua, wasn't really interested. So I went to our graphic department and borrowed one of their dual 500 G4 towers. Writing on it now :) Loaded up OS X.1 WITHOUT 9! Been using my Mac as my primary machine for about 3 weeks now and I gotta say the user experience is so advanced compared to Windows. Graphically, no OS compares! It is rock solid and, on my system, pretty quick. I have MS Office v.X on here and I like it better than on Windows! Not too bloated and the interface is nicely integrated with OS X. The graphing capabilities rock. After using IE 5.1 for a week, really didn't like it. I've since downloaded OmniWeb 4 and it's great! Also, I really like AppleScript, that is some powerful *****. I've totally consumed myself in OS X for these past 3 weeks and have decided to sell my new P4 system and buy 2 Macs. Love the iMac and want it downstairs to surf the web and manage my digital hub (connect to my stereo as a preamp). Also waiting for the G5 tower to be released. iMovie is one of the coolest apps I've ever seen and iPhoto makes my life a little easier. I love photography and have tons of pics that I always have had major problems on my PC and would like to get into basic movie editing after playing with iMovie. So a convert Apple has won.

I still think Apple has a far way to go. Here are some observations. OS X needs to be able to work effortlessly with Windows. Just basic file sharing over a network would get the job done. Used DAVE, didn't like it, uninstalled it. Hardware needs to come down just a tad. The G4 iMac is properly priced, but the towers are a rip off. Need to be reduced across the board by ~20%. Software is ridiculously expensive. The biggest problem I foresee with switching to a Mac is it will cost me so much more. Don't know if I can do that. Just basic, non-MS software is too expensive. I do like the fact that Apple doesn't always build backward compatibility in, but the hardware seems to be outdated too quickly. It looks like their hardware cycles are every 3-6 months. And after 2 years, u are forced to buy new hardware. That's too soon, one area where Apple could really stick it to MS is if their hardware lasted longer. I'm waiting to see the G5, but the hardware needs to be a little better. Needs a faster FSB and should adopt RDRAM memory. RDRAM would provide such benefit to Macs! It is built for multimedia and there is no price difference anymore. Those are my main questions/comments to Apple.

In summary, I am now moved over to supporting our Mac users and am waning off Windows pretty quickly. My main task right now is figuring a way to upgrade all users to X without loading OS 9.2 on there. Still need Photoshop 7 and Fireworks for OS X, then we're golden. I used to be that guy who would rip on Mac users! Never could understand why anyone would use a Mac, now I know. Still don't like anything prior to OS X, but X is just bomb! I'm a businessman, born and bred business all my life. As I'm sure you all know, there's no Apple in business. So I'm now quite the outcast, but I'm planning on starting a business and, if I can, will implement OS X as our standard.

Best Regards,
Adam

kainjow

Feb 8, 2002, 05:35 PM

I've always thought that Apple hardware last a lot longer than PC hardware. I had an old PC and an old Mac (Performa 6116) from about the same time (1994?). Anyways, the PC can't do anything, except open Notepad. The Mac, on the other hand, could do so much. I don't have it anymore, but it sure could easily run 0S 9. PC hardware is crap. It never works and it's ugly as butt!

Well, it's nice to hear the testimony of a new Mac convert. Ahhhhh... Mac is really the best OS.

I believe that people are blinded by the truth when they use Windows. Then once they see Mac OS X, their eyes are opened and they have seen the light!

-Kevin

gbojim

Feb 8, 2002, 06:49 PM

Thought some of you might be interested in something that happened this week that absolutely floored me.

I have a customer where I provide network management, etc. There are about 250 users on the LAN running Win 95, Office 95 and some business apps. All servers are Win NT. For a variety of reasons, which are too boring and technical to go into, it's upgrade time for the desktops.

We did a 5 yr TCO projection to upgrade to new Dell's (don't ask) with Win XP and Office XP. To make a long story short, the company owner freaked when he saw the relicensing fees for the XP products. We looked at some things like Star Office but didn't like it.

So last Monday, he asks if it's possible to run all of their new apps on the iMac. We tested everything out on my TiBook throughout the week and all was fine (I was worried some of the new java apps would choke on it). The only thing left is the office productivity app. So the plan is to test FreeOffice when it is ready. Also, after reworking the 5 yr TCO, the XP platform wasn't even close on cost. So if FreeOffice works out, this guy is going to totally convert to iMacs on the desktop over the summer.

Why so unbelievable? Up until Monday, this is a guy who was always on my case about using the TiBook only because it looked cool, and I should trade it in on a real notebook like his Latitude. He would barely even acknowledge that Apple existed. Five days later, he is ready to bet his business on the Mac.

Just another convert.

oldnextuser

Feb 8, 2002, 07:13 PM

NeXT failed for purely cost related reasons.

NeXT hardware, except for the education sector, was damn expensive and couldn't keep up with the flood of faster procs from Sun and HP. Guess what? It was motorola that lagged then too. NeXT hardware was just damn overpriced for what it really was (except the NeXTDimension cards). Also many people don't know but NeXT totally ate it on MO drive costs and later on even more so on licensing costs for PostScript and other parts of the OS. Even at a few hundred bucks a pop, the OS was losing money.

But damn were NeXT machines fine. To this day I have yet to feel the total seemless integration with any machine, desktop, laptop or workstation that black hardware provided. OSX could be like this in a few revisions.

cmoney

Feb 8, 2002, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by cryptochrome
Saying the market isn't developed for a particular product isn't a very good reason for not pursuing it. I thought apple was supposed to be the great innovator, trailblazer, and packager. Creating markets where there were none before, developing new technologies, and turning promising applications into really useful ones.

There is a bad side to being ahead of your time though. There's ALOT of risk in being the pioneer. You never know if the public will accept your new "market." If instead you "embrace and extend" as Apple's been doing with their digital hub, there's less risk because your selling proposal is "hey, now you can do more with what you already have."

Think about the Newton: it created the PDA and no one's really strayed from its formula and succeeded. It's also dead. Technology is littered with one time innovative products that were ahead of its time.

Maybe it's true that apple is working on a portable device that can do PDA things but is mostly about interacting with your computer remotely, which they're not calling a PDA due to Steve's semantics. I hope so. Leading professional markets like science and entertainment is great, but if they're going to talk digital lifestyle they'd better do more than iPod. They risk being left behind when Microsoft and Sony come out with their next generation game consoles, which are going to be serious TV convergence boxes (Games, Music, DVD, PVR, and Internet). It was no coincidence that the UltimateTV developers moved over to the Xbox team. All the more reason to team up with Sony I guess - except they are their primary competition.
Apple's strategy seems to be very very targeted. Their goal is to increase marketshare for Macs and they're playing the game very cautiously. Going after the TV market doesn't necessarily get more Macs into homes. Going after the high-end workstation market with a clear media creation solution and horsepower to back it up has a better chance of success. Apart from iPod and iTunes (which does allow you to create custom CDs), Apple's digital hub so far has been about content creation and not content consumption.

And it's also an extension of current Mac capabilities. Apple's strength is creativity apps. Macs enable you to focus on creation instead of getting the damn computer to work so that you can create. Apple's being careful to stay within their strengths while also taking on some of the competitors who've strayed a little too close to home.

I'm also reminded of a Steve Jobs interview from a few years ago where he said something like the TV is made for consumption, you see people sitting there being very passive. The computer is exactly the opposite. He finished by saying that he didn't see that changing anytime soon.

In my view, Apple has ceded those markets to whomever wants them because Apple doesn't really have any strengths there. No matter how interactive TV gets, you'll never sit in front of your TV to create things. And that's where Apple wants to be.

jaykk

Feb 8, 2002, 08:40 PM

just wondering why Sun didn't relase their Java 1.4 for Mac OS X ? it is available in all other Major OS ..especially since the Swing application looks best on Mac ..

Unregistered

Feb 8, 2002, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by PyroTurtle
anyone ever use RenderMan?
how about see the code?
it has suport for up to 32 Procesors at a time...
i think that Unix aspect will come into play around june and july really, there's some big unix stuff hapening this summer and some new kernel's due out as well, plus, it's the end of the school year so all the new college apps should be out.
i think we could see some interesting, maybe even new, apple products around that time

iRemote, iCard, PDA that's really an apple remote that's really a PDA....that would be nice

Yeah, took an 'Advanced Rendering with PRRenderMan" class a couple semesters ago. I learned that I will stick to animating, not messing with '.rib's' and '.sl's.' I could do without all the math. Hey, Im an animator for crying out loud. A dumb artist. Leave all the really hard stuff to the smart people. Ü

speaking of fun animation...

agreenster

Feb 8, 2002, 08:43 PM

I forgot to put my username and password in the above post.

Its me!!!! Im the RenderMan guy!! For real! Damnit.

And this was the animation I was alluding to....

Unregistered

Feb 8, 2002, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Unregistered
Now, what I would really like to see is a rack mount server version running OS X Server. I think that's what will make it possible to move some macs into the mainstream computing environment.

There already is such a thing, it's called PowerBook G4. ;-)

Seriously, a 1u Mac would make it a lot easier for me to get some of my clients to start using MacOS; and all that's needed is already there in the TiBook... Remove the screen, keyboard, battery and CD-player, and guess what, you could get at least 4-8 Macs to fit where you today can only hold 1 other server.

Yes, the heat would be enough to fry eggs in under 5 seconds, but that's not impossible to solve, esp. not with this much extra space per server (compared with a traditional machine).

8 1GHz DP G4 in 2u (1u for cooling :-)) anyone? ;-)

Hmmm... if I were to get seriously serious for a second I might say something like this:
How about a rackmountable thingie with an eject-button, that results in the TiBook ending up in a position where you simply open it up and start doing things with the server, and then you push it back in again?

saffron

Feb 9, 2002, 12:49 AM

Gelfin,

I will be buying my first Mac this year, hopefully a dual G5. I have been editing on an SGI workstation Quad 540 running WINNT SP6 with a GIG of ECCSDRAM. Unix (OS X) is one of the main reasons I am switching to Apple. The muti-threaded capabilities of this system with the stability of a UNIX based 64 bit OS is something I look foward to adopting. I never want to see Dr. Watson again. I plan on using the system to run Final Cut Pro 3 and Combustion 2. I expect to take full advantage of the new NVIdia graphics capabilities now that Alias/Wavefront has a
version of Maya for OS X . This is truly amazing since I was told that Alias invested about a million dollars in porting over the lines of code. All the high end applications supporting OS X is quite a vote of confidence. My SGI workstation with Digital Fusion and DPS Reality/Velocity hardware had a price tag of $35,000. The Mac dual is an amazing deal with software that will rival anything I had on the SGI.

Unregistered

Feb 9, 2002, 10:03 AM

Apparently the spellchecker sucks too. :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hrafnhrafnsson
[B]Well I'm currently a window user, I strayed from the path to go to windows 4 - windows 2000 - and now windows xp... what a load of crap... I'ts like a facelift gone bad. I like my system pretty with all the bells and whistles I can find, but with windows xp they did all that but forgott to think first. I love mac and have allways been looking back to see if what's happening, will there be a time when I will look back and say it's time to return to my cult? Whell gues what. I've been following the succes of X and let me tell you it didn't start of so great, but now.... wow. This digital hup idea is great, Unix rocks... Windows XP may have done alot to change the gap between usability and look and feel, but common they havent scratched the surfice of X... X seem extreemly staple. It's fast and gorgeas...

maclamb

Feb 9, 2002, 11:01 AM

Unfortunately, I have a different managment from the poerson who posted about his boss is moving to Mac.
I work at an insurance company using IBM, Notes, PCs and Token ring. As part of my employment agreement (though not part of the offer letter) my manager agreed to get me a Mac 867 (i was given a broken G4 400 instead) - I reserached it before starting and sent her specs, price and confirmation that Lotus notes runs on Mac (OS 9 and X which I Use).
Long story short - I was able to get the network people to convert my IP to Ethernet - so I was up on OSX and downloaded a copy of Notes and I was off and running.
Until I get a call from the Notes manager - Somebody ratted me out as to having a mac and now he is deciding if I will be allowed to run Notes on my mac. Not that there is any impact to his team, software. or Notes DB. I support my machine completely myself - hw, sw and network.
He even admitted there is no direct effect he can see from using Notes on a Mac (duh, it's just an interface).
No, his problem is "Well the mac's different and if you let everybody be different then we have anarchy and it makes my job harder" Even though his job is to make MY job easier...which he won't if I have to use a PC.
Even though it does not impact him in any way.
So where are we?
My manger doesn't care what I use, the network people don't care and if this cretin puts his foot down and refuses to allow me to access Notes from my mac (which is all he can do) I will use my Dell laptop - which I have to use anyway b/c I teach VisualAge classes and it don't run on a mac, or unix or Linux...So I run notes on my pc and do all the rest of my work on a mac.
Actually, I'll probably jump back to the mac in a week anyway and a year from now tell him I've been on a mac all along ;-) - Butt Face!

Some people are knee-jerk idiots (he even admitted to this being a knee jerk response)
On another note - I DID help the PC/Netwrok guy debug NT and get Websphere installed by repairing the NT registry - so he thinks I'm a god - (
"a" god - not "The God" - what movie is that a quote from???)

Gelfin

Feb 9, 2002, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by maclamb
Some people are knee-jerk idiots (he even admitted to this being a knee jerk response)

Well, unfortunately an attitude like that is kind of an unavoidable consequence of working in an IT support role, and honestly you can't really blame them to an extent. Anyone in that position rapidly comes to the conclusion that it would be easier to support a tribe of chimps, because the average user, you see, is an idiot. And the idiots seem to have an instinctive drive to change things on their computers until they break. Then they call the IT guy, in hysterics, because "THIS STUPID COMPUTER IS A PIECE OF CRAP AND I CAN'T PRINT ANYMORE AND THE WORLD WILL END IF IT'S NOT FIXED IN TEN MINUTES."

It's like classical conditioning. You'd get the same result if your IT guy had an electrode in his pants that zapped him every time a user changed something. They become very conservative, and skittish to the point of paranoia about users doing something they didn't plan on.

Taft

Feb 9, 2002, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Gelfin

With SGI's prolonged stumbling, and Intergraph completely defunct with regard to hardware, there's an enormous vacuum in the industry, with an almost unimaginable amount of revenue just waiting for the right company to come along and offer a complete solution. The only piece of the puzzle missing here is the G5. Many people have complained bitterly about the seeming delays in getting G5s out, but it could be that Steve is biding his time, getting all the pieces in place, and staging a major coup in the high-end professional market. MWNY would be a fantastic place to announce such a beast, since the NY crowd has a higher media industry skew than even San Francisco. I can't guarantee Steve's going to DO this astonishing thing, but he's certainly positioned himself well for it.

<MrBurns>Eeeeeexcellent</MrBurns>

Interesting theory. Me likes, Me likes.

I'd have to say that Apple's strategy with Final Cut has been one of its most successful. They've gotten a lot of good press for it. The aquisition of Nothing Real seems like another good move in this direction. And G5's combined with a great upgrade to their video editing software would be a great one-two punch to the competition.

And I like the Mr. Burns touch. Oh so evil.

Anyone else wondering when Apple is going to get in gear and make a Audio recording and editing suite comperable to Final Cut? The Mac is a great platform for audio recording, but since OS X came out I can't record music anymore!:(

The Unix foundation and Apple's Multimedia past seem to be the perfect combo. Now bring on the apps!!!

Matthew

scottgfx

Feb 10, 2002, 04:12 AM

I just wanted to say that I'm very impressed with the forums here. Much better signal-to-noise ratio than say, slashdot?

The next year should be pretty interesting for Apple. I hear through the grapevine that Avid is not happy with Apple and will probably not be developing any more Mac products. A lot of companies have been pushed and prodded by Avid to "upgrade" their Avid systems from Mac to NT. The only real problem I have seen is that Avid provides a complete solution. Apple makes the hardware and software, but it's up to a 3rd party to build a solution that works. I've started down this path and I'm now having to figure out which RAID system and SCSI cards are best. Or, do I deal with a small systems provider that doesn't have the namesake or backing of a name like Avid?

Apple is doing a lot of things right and I look forward to an OS-X "Shake". :)

I'm still learning FCP but I have a small background in Avid Media Composers. While I am a huge fan of Avid's editing features, their effects abilities leave a lot to be desired. I think Apple sees some of their failings and is working to build a better effects workflow. I hope I am right!