PDA

View Full Version : France & Germany to face US sanctions


peter2002
Feb 12, 2003, 06:40 PM
The US Congress is set impose new trade barriers and sanctions against France and Germany for their lack of support of defending NATO member Turkey, and pacifist, anti-war, anti-US stance on pending Gulf War 2.

The Post said the speaker also is exploring whether the United States should require "bright orange warning labels" on French wines that are clarified with bovine blood.

"People should know how the French make their wine, "the Post quoted Hastert spokesman John Feehery as saying.

Two U.S. wine experts contacted by the newspaper, said a few French wine growers used bovine blood as a clarifier before the process was banned in the late 1990s after the "made cow disease" scare.

Lawmakers want to move the 100,000 US military troops out of Germany too. This will hurt because our troops spend a lot of money in Germany which support German jobs and their tax base.

Link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=524&u=/ap/20030212/ap_wo_en_po/us_na_gen_us_france_germany_3&printer=1)

Gosh, the French use cow blood to make wine? Jeez, that sounds so gross. I'm drinking Gallo from now on.

Pete :)

Chad
Feb 12, 2003, 06:42 PM
that is def gnarly

think I'll stick to Jamacian rum ;)

ya mon iz got da feeling now ;)

Mr. Anderson
Feb 12, 2003, 06:46 PM
Cow blood, eh? Well, what do the vintners in California use as a clarifier? What sort of alternatives are there and are they any better? I don't know enough about this, but if anyone has any inside info that would be great, cause I love my wine :D

D

Taft
Feb 12, 2003, 07:11 PM
This is insanity! The US forced the situation in which Turkey requested aid from the UN. Then, when France and Germany deny aid to a country that does not yet need it (and may never need it, given that war isn't certain yet), the US paints them in a negative light. Ridiculous.

This is just another step (sanctions) that is going to further divide our country from the rest of the world in our policy, our attitude and our cultures. This is insanity.

And the wine thing...They've been doing it since the beginning of French winemaking and French wines are among the highest regarded in the world. Considering I eat my steak medium rare, I'm not too worried or disgusted by it.

I'll still be going to the beaujolais nouveau festival at a local bistro late this summer. :D

Taft

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 12, 2003, 07:19 PM
Man I dont believe that I am agreeing with Taft but are we sure there is validity to this story? I hope not but if it is true i would think the bright labels on the wine would be enough!;)

etoiles
Feb 12, 2003, 07:43 PM
Any excuse to discredit foreign produce...remember the taxes on French cheese and other products when France (or was it the EU ?) passed a law to ensure that beef containing growth hormones (common in the US) was properly labeled. Same thing with genetically modified food.
I don't know about you guys, but I am currently less worried about what is in a good French wine than in a can of Chilli. Cheers.

That was under Clinton, it is part of an ongoing economic war between the US and Europe.

I think the biggest sanctions France (Totalfina/elf) is going to face, is losing Iraqi oil exports (the only thing Iraq could export during the embargo). Bush is ligning up American oil companies to be in charge of that once Iraq has been...ehm...liberated.

Oil DOES play a role here, on both sides.

3rdpath
Feb 12, 2003, 08:41 PM
anyone remember what happened to yemen when they voted against our first dance with iraq? immediately following the vote, a u.s. diplomat told the yemeni official that it was the most expensive " no" they would ever vote. within days we had discontinued over 70 million dollars in aid to one of the world's poorest countries. and 800,000 yemeni workers were then expelled from saudi arabia.

want to know why so many of the small poor nations are voting with the u.s.?
c'mon, think real hard....

btw, anyone else catch the interview of the NY state republican senator and the bbc( i think) yesterday...the senator was such a condescending wanker--said the only thing germany had ever done was " start two world wars" and the only thing the french could do is " teach the iraqis how to surrender"....the interviewer was speechless...the senator continued by saying the support of these small countries mattered more because they " had more people" and "france didn't even have a working aircraft carrier".

it was pretty sad.

TMay
Feb 12, 2003, 08:47 PM
I like to refer to a book "Rise and Fall of Great Powers; Economic Change and Military Conflict from 1500 to 2000" by Paul M. Kennedy, January 1989.

While his prescience of events after publication have been off the mark (especially with the downfall of the Soviet Union, decline of Japan, and rise of China), he does chronicle some of the warning signs of decline. As the title suggests, large relative increases in military spending are generally precursors to a subsequent decline, and "overstretch" is a common preoccupation during an empire's peak.

While I certainly wouldn't want to state that the US is in decline, one can make the argument that a harsher economic reality is upon us. With the economic center shifting to Asia, it may be that our relative decline in economic status will undercut our superpower status within the next few decades.

The actions by our congress will merely speed this up as America begins to unilaterally reshape the world to its needs, bearing the bulk of the economic and political costs, without support of our historic allies.

medea
Feb 12, 2003, 08:53 PM
bunch of ***** a'holes, hey france and germany don't want to leap blindly into war so we will burn all of our bridges and screw the rest of the world. I hate the Bush administration and am counting down the days he will be out of office. either by being voted out in the next election or by being shot.

Stelliform
Feb 12, 2003, 10:34 PM
.....

LethalWolfe
Feb 12, 2003, 11:06 PM
OMG like this is the first time a country has ever used economics as a leveraging tactic. Welcome to the wonderful world of diplomacy...


Lethal

3rdpath
Feb 12, 2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
economics as a leveraging tactic.


sounds a lot like extortion to me.

and though it may be common, it certainly isn't acceptable.

i guess n. korea's current extortion tactic is just SOP, at least they're playing by our rules...:rolleyes:

LethalWolfe
Feb 12, 2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by 3rdpath


sounds a lot like extortion to me.

and though it may be common, it certainly isn't acceptable.

i guess n. korea's current extortion tactic is just SOP, at least they're playing by our rules...:rolleyes:


I'm not saying it's right, I just wanted to point out that this isn't an uncommon diplomatic ploy for any country to use. I'm sure that if the US follows thru w/it France and Germany will retaliate<sp?> by putting up trade barries, sanctions, and/or "scary" labels on US prodcuts imported into their respective countries.

Bananas, steel, corn, sugar, meat, consumer goods... if it is an import or an export it's been used as a econmic "weapon" by some country against some other country at some point in time.

Lethal

Backtothemac
Feb 13, 2003, 08:56 AM
Here is the thing that you are missing. They invoked the mutual defense clause of NATO. They want prepretory defenses put up before there is a conflict. This is the first time ever that a country has requested this. Turkey requested it, and every member of NATO, save the same two that are trying everything they can to protect the Billions of dollars they have invested in Iraq, supported Turkeys request. So, France and Germany are back in bed together. The Franco-Prussian alliance. Now, whether you agree with the policy that we are putting out there or not, Imagine you do like it, even if you don't, do you let foriegn governments determine American Foreign policy, and how we distribute aid?

Think about that. Ignore the situation, and think of the bigger picture.

Sorry, but I say we ignore, France, Germany, and sorry for the laugh Belgium, and go with the 40 other countries that are supporting us.

And besides, the guy is right, France doesn't have a working Aircraft carrier :)

amnesiac1984
Feb 13, 2003, 11:37 AM
So if france and germany are so irrelevent why impose sanctions on them?

I'm glad that france and germany are standing up against this ridiculous war! I for one will be at the stop the war march in london on saturday. I can't believe how petty some of your congressmen are being in that article, they are behaving more like spoiled children than responsible adults.

I think the sooner our prime minister gets out of bed with mr dickhead bush the better. You say the anti-bush is a minority. Maybe in the US, and thats only because most general americans would easily be taken in by the rubbish he spouts. But why not ask the rest of the world. (OMG THE U.S. ASKING THE REST OF THE WORLD THEIR OPINION, SURELY NOT!) and you will see that in europe including Britain he's probably the least popular man alive! Right up there with Osama and Saddam himself!

Anyway, with the 10 new countries joing europe we will become the largest economic power in the world by a long way! So who needs the US? Oh yeah, Apple is based in the US, damn! Steve, why don;t you move over to France? Now htat would be thinking Different! LOL :p

macfan
Feb 13, 2003, 12:50 PM
No one is going to impose sanctions of France. It's just rhetoric of the day.

Backtothemac
Feb 13, 2003, 02:23 PM
Amnesiac if you don't support the war, fine. There were plenty of people that said that we would take over Iraq after the 1st Gulf War, um, no true. They said there would be 500,000 Casualties to Iraqi civilians in the first gulf war, not true.

People, if you don't agree, don't. But be mature enough not to resort to name calling. It is very unintelligent. VERY!

Sorry, but the world, is with the US. Those 11 countries that you speak of coming in the EU, are with the US. Sorry, but this is not about the war, but about France, Germany, and Belgium not supporting Turkey. They have never wanted Turkey in NATO anyway.

Ask why France and Germany don't support the war? How about 28 million in investments.

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 13, 2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by medea
bunch of ***** a'holes, hey france and germany don't want to leap blindly into war so we will burn all of our bridges and screw the rest of the world. I hate the Bush administration and am counting down the days he will be out of office. either by being voted out in the next election or by being shot. First of all i have not heard this to be of any facts, 2nd i think you better add another 4 years to your countdown because the Demos seem to be doing everything wrong these days ( blocking a hispanic ) siding with Saddam, Attacking the president at every moment no matter if he is right or wrong, And then my all time favorite letting daschle speak!

amnesiac1984
Feb 13, 2003, 03:08 PM
Okay, sorry for resorting to name calling. Its just a little difficult to maintain a cool head when you here something so damn ridiculous as what was in the news article. And I didn't fully understand what this is about. Thing is, I hadn't felt so strongly about politics until this fiasco. I was so deeply hurt and felt so bad at september 11th but seeing bush's administration cock things up so badly since then, and the american people stand by him all the way, and now suddenly bush feels a load more death and war is the answer? Did he learn nothing from september 11th? It jsut pisses me off thats all, I'll probably feel a lot better after meeting with millions in london to shout at parliment and march through the city centre.
:D

Chad
Feb 13, 2003, 03:26 PM
to all that are pissing on the US
what if we say fine and do what sadam is doing ????
then who would want to stop us ???

what if we decide to stop giving aid and helping others in the world ???

no other country gives the aid that the US gives
if we decide to be like the french and germans and decide not to help out when other countries need it
what would you say then ???
bet you would bitch then

I am amazed the germans are not looking at there past
or do some think people like sadam and hitler are good for others in the near countries and within there own country

go to Iraq and start holding up signs down with sadam and see how long you would last

people are so easy to bitch and complain and be so peace and love and then wonder what happened

what about the refugees that came out of Iraq and are telling horror stories of there daughters beeing raped and killed in front of them and chemical weapons testing on civilians
I guess to you that are bitching this is OK after all its not in my backyard ????

I am not for having bad stuff happen but are world is getting screwed up
most people now are afraid to speak up or act out
if you saw a woman beeing raped in a alley chances are most would not do anything in fear of retaliation or becoming a victim

those that dont like it should move to Iraq for a while and see what it is like

amnesiac1984
Feb 13, 2003, 04:18 PM
i'm sorry, but i am going to try and be polite.

You cannot hold germany's past against them. the ppl ruling htere now have nothing to do with hitler.

of course the iraqi regime is bad, but this war is not about solving this problem, its about all this other ****! war, its not the answer!! there are other ways to get rid of the iraqi regime.

this is very complicated issue and running blindly into war is definately not the answer.

Yes, the US does give a ****load of aid, so do most developed countries!
They also manufacture most of the worlds weapons! And currency speculators in wall street cause the collapse of struggling countries economies monthly!

It is every country's obligation to.

The US needs to stand by the UN and NATO and not ignore them!

I'm not gonna say anymore on this cos its such a waste of time talking about it with some people.

Just remember this. A lot of problems in the world today have to do with western governments doing a botch job of sorting things out in the past!

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 13, 2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by amnesiac1984
i'm sorry, but i am going to try and be polite.

You cannot hold germany's past against them. the ppl ruling htere now have nothing to do with hitler.

of course the iraqi regime is bad, but this war is not about solving this problem, its about all this other ****! war, its not the answer!! there are other ways to get rid of the iraqi regime.

this is very complicated issue and running blindly into war is definately not the answer.

Yes, the US does give a ****load of aid, so do most developed countries!
They also manufacture most of the worlds weapons! And currency speculators in wall street cause the collapse of struggling countries economies monthly!

It is every country's obligation to.

The US needs to stand by the UN and NATO and not ignore them!

I'm not gonna say anymore on this cos its such a waste of time talking about it with some people.

Just remember this. A lot of problems in the world today have to do with western governments doing a botch job of sorting things out in the past! I think that France and Germany need to stand with their own resolutions that they have allready Passed! Sure the U.S. isnt perfect but to blame everything constantly on us is just wrong. Who stood by Germany during all those years when the USSR was on the other side of the wall they built! who did Restore France! 12 years of no action by the U.N and Clinton. This crap about a war is crap. If we go in to remove Saddam( and that is what it is, not a war ) it wont take but a week or two if that. And we have a lot of countries with us. The world had better start living up to its responsibilities unless it wants more Tyrants/killers like Saddam and the N korean. 911 has woken us up and the world should stop appeasing all of these bastards. Instead of blaming the u.s. at every chance why not put the blame where it belongs. If Saddam doesnt follow the UN then what good is it in the first place. SADDAM AND THE CRAZY KOREAN ! Freedom should prevail for all of mankind! The sooner we get rid of these tyrants the sooner the world will be a better place!

Thanatoast
Feb 13, 2003, 05:26 PM
You can find the full version at www.nato.int (http://www.nato.int)

Emphasis added.

The North Atlantic Treaty
Washington D.C. - 4 April 1949

Article 1

The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and *to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.*

Being as how the UN has not approved the invasion of Iraq, NATO members should not be participating in the attack.

Article 4

The Parties will *consult* together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.

Since France and Germany are against the war and do not want to invade, why would they support pre-arming Turkey? That would be assuming that the war will happen. They can't do that. They have said they will defend Turkey, as soon as it is attacked.

Chad
Feb 13, 2003, 05:32 PM
amnesiac1984
12 years of playing games with them and then they kick the UN out for a while
this is not blind at all this is 12 years of his games he has never shown he is willing to help


what I am saying is what if we just said hitler is not our prob and let him run his course ????

most of Germany was against him just as most Iraqis are afriad of Sadam as the Germans were afraid of Hitler

they should be siding with trying to free them of a dictator that kills for no other reason than to keep people scared

amnesiac1984
Feb 13, 2003, 06:39 PM
yeah, i agree this is what it should be about. The pproblem is that I don't think thats the whole story, its all about oil etc, i'm not sure of the details, I jsut don;t feel its the best way!

And I don't feel the US is entirely to blame, of course not, but it has help provide environments for regimes to build up, ie when they helped osama and gave him weapons to fight the russians.

I guess my problem is with the way GWBush is going about it, and I guess my problem is with GW Bush himself! I think he's war mongering and trying to be too much of a hero in his presidency!

We have to tread very carefully with this war if it goes ahead because, although we may get rid of Sadam. There's all sorts of other stuff going on in the region that needs to be dealt with in the region.

The difference in hitler and sadam is that hitler had actually built up a huge army and planned to take over the world! What needs to happen with sadam is what happened to milosovitch! (sp?)

edit: BTW 10.2.4 is out so I'm gonna get back to the mac side of things which is much more enjoyable!:D

Perci Mac
Feb 13, 2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by medea
bunch of ***** a'holes, hey france and germany don't want to leap blindly into war so we will burn all of our bridges and screw the rest of the world. I hate the Bush administration and am counting down the days he will be out of office. either by being voted out in the next election or by being shot.

If you hate Bush so much, why don't you move to France? Wanker.

Juventuz
Feb 14, 2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by amnesiac1984
..... ie when they helped osama and gave him weapons to fight the russians.

This is one of the biggest myths around and I wish people knew what really happened.

The US did not give Osama weapons to fight the Russians. The US provided weapons and training to the mujahedeen, not to bin laden.

Bin Laden raised money and supplied heavy machinery for the mujahedeen fighting the Soviet invasion. He also provided financing for the so-called Services Office, which recruited and trained a brigade of foreign Muslim militants that fought alongside the Afghan mujahedeen.

Bin Laden did not fight with the mujahedeen, he provided support to them as did the US. They did it for two different reasons.

Juventuz
Feb 14, 2003, 09:44 AM
One other thing...

The title to this thread is SOOOO misleading. Congress was calling for boycotts, not sanctions. There's a BIG difference between the two.

It seems the peter puts misleading titles in threads quite often!

peter2002
Feb 14, 2003, 01:54 PM
Congress was calling for boycotts, not sanctions.

Please go look at a dictionary. Congress is not asking for boycotts, they are asking to put warning labels on over priced French (grape juice) wine that has been clarified with cow's blood. A boycott is an action by the public to not buy a product from a group or country that the boycott group finds offensive for political or idealogical reasons. Sanctions are actions taken by governments to protest another government. The title is not misleading.

Come on it's France, they wouldn't even fight when Hitler invaded. Their army gave up on the first day, 300,000 other French troops including DeGaul fled to England. France hasn't had any balls since Napolean was Emperor.

German corporations have made billions selling equipment to make biological, and chemical weapons to Iraq.

Russia has made billions selling skud missles to Iraq.

The real reason France, Germany, and Russia are protesting is because they have over $10 billion in oil contracts with Iraq which they will loose once we invade and overthrow Sadam's regime.

The unemployment rates in France, Germany, and Russia are 11%-20% and they are worried the jobless rates will go way up because of all the lost trade they will loose when Sadam is gone and America comes in and gives the business to US, UK, Australia, Spain, and Eastern European coutries that are supporting our push for war.

Pete

Backtothemac
Feb 14, 2003, 02:08 PM
Peter,
Remember trench warfare. There are ghosts of over 700,000 souls from Verdun that would disagree, as from the Ardens, etc.

The french fought with great courage in WWI, and the devistation that they suffered lead to their demise in WWII. They were not cowards, but could not emotionally take it again.

Dont Hurt Me
Feb 14, 2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by peter2002
Congress was calling for boycotts, not sanctions.

Please go look at a dictionary. Congress is not asking for boycotts, they are asking to put warning labels on over priced French (grape juice) wine that has been clarified with cow's blood. A boycott is an action by the public to not buy a product from a group or country that the boycott group finds offensive for political or idealogical reasons. Sanctions are actions taken by governments to protest another government. The title is not misleading.

Come on it's France, they wouldn't even fight when Hitler invaded. Their army gave up on the first day, 300,000 other French troops including DeGaul fled to England. France hasn't had any balls since Napolean was Emperor.

German corporations have made billions selling equipment to make biological, and chemical weapons to Iraq.

Russia has made billions selling skud missles to Iraq.

The real reason France, Germany, and Russia are protesting is because they have over $10 billion in oil contracts with Iraq which they will loose once we invade and overthrow Sadam's regime.

The unemployment rates in France, Germany, and Russia are 11%-20% and they are worried the jobless rates will go way up because of all the lost trade they will loose when Sadam is gone and America comes in and gives the business to US, UK, Australia, Spain, and Eastern European coutries that are supporting our push for war.

Pete Thanks, I love it when someone just says it as it is rather then trying make a long argument with a million shades of grey. You Have Said It As It Is though you will make a lot of the saddam lovers cry. The French,Germans,Russians are in Bed with that Bad boy Saddam. No Mystery and that is why they are happy with the status quo. Even though they all passed the last resolution they have no intent in enforcing it.