More Apple Packages?

[MacRumors]

Spymac (http://www.spymac.com/comments.php?id=328_0_5_0_C) reports that Apple may start providing more bundles akin to iLife:

According to our tipster, Apple plans to squash together Safari, Mail and iChat into a package to be sold for $29.95 USD

Apple's current iLife bundle provides iMovie, iTunes, iPhoto and iDVD in one $49.00. Only iDVD is otherwise unavailable from Apple's website for download.

[smashedapart]

This is nonsense.

[Centris 650]

They aren't THAT greedy are they?

[Hemingray]

Why on earth would they do that? They're bundled with OS X and new comps to begin with... and they're not that big of a download. :confused:

[Nermal]

I don't see them making another paid bundle unless it also includes something you can't get for free, like iDVD. They might start charging for something that's currently free, or, better yet, they could have an entirely new app up their sleeve.

[Mattski]

I still don't understand the concept of paying for free Applications.....

iLife has an advantage of coming on discs, when it is too big to download.

It would be nice to see Apple offer free applications on CD's for a minor fee.

$29.95 / $60 Aus is a bit too much.

Which is why I tend to believe this is pure speculation with no real substance what so ever.

I think Spymac has gone to the Dogs in a big way. A year ago (even despite iWalk) they seemed to post some credible information, however now.....it's all seems to be crap.

[Chaszmyr]

All I can say is it better not be true.

[itmdramaguy]

Apple would have to be stupid if they wanted to charge for Mail, Safari, and iChat. All of these programs have problems. iChat is the only one that I really really like enough to pay for. Mail is not the best mail program and Safari needs a lot of work still until it beats out Internet Explorer compatability. Please don't do this Apple!

[andyduncan]

next bundle: Finder, System Preferences and Terminal.app

[coolsoldier]

Mail iChat and Safari doesn't make sense. As much as i like the programs, they're pretty basic and if they don't exist something else does for free (Mozilla and AIM anyone?) I would prefer to keep on with my apple apps, but i'm not going to pay $30.00 for it.

[yzedf]

i say that because you don't make money giving away free software.

they could offer a plan where you get free upgrades of iLife and iConnect (whatever they call it) for 12 months after the purchase of your new system.

apple is looking for revenue streams. offering kick ass software at good prices is one good way to do it.

think of all the dippy $10US apps out there that people buy, that don't really do much.

$80US to get all of your needs met, seems good to me. music, photos, movies, email, chat, internet etc that people actually want to use?

i am in. i have no problems supporting a company i believe in.

[Ocelot]

Okay this is lame!!!

...and in other news:

Microsoft will be bundeling paint, wordpad, msn messenger and selling it for 15.95 the package will be called "redundant money making scam pro" and will compete directly with Apple's "iCrap" package.

sorry...sarcasm... :D

[Mr. MacPhisto]

The thing about iLife is that all four programs work with one another. iChat, Mail, and Safari don't, at least not in their current forms. I'd believe it if they packaged them together as an upgrade CD for something like $5-10 to cover printing and distribution costs for people who don't want to download. I could see the expense if they package something new with it, could also indicate new versions of ichat and mail are on the way too. But I doubt it.

[iJon]

Originally posted by Chaszmyr
All I can say is it better not be true.
why does it matter, its not like we dont haave them to begin with.

iJon

[3777]

Ok so this means they'd no longer offer these basic programs for free via download? Why have a software updater and why bother with a browser then since no one will use it?

[shadowfax]

the only issue i have with this is that there is no reason to. none of them is big like iDVD, or even iMovie.

as to selling them, so what? apple hasn't charged for iPhoto or iTunes or iMovie, and i don't think they are going to. stuff like that will bring you to your knees as a company. Apple, i think, has found a zen of free and charged--you charge for OSes, apps that are unnecessary to anyone but pros and prosumers, and so on... but you can't charge for basic stuff. hell, even M$ understands that. charge for apple works? of course. charge for FCP? duh... Safari? no. Apple isn't that stupid. they know they would fly out of that market like chicken from a coop with a fox in it.

Apple will probably sell them in addition to making them available as free downloads. and why not? there are plenty of people who will drop 30$ for another cool apple box, some physical documentation, and for the convenience of having the Apps on a CD.

[pyrotoaster]

More pay-for packages: Probably, although none in the immediate future.
A pay-for package that includes Safari or iChat: Total nonsense.

Apple knows that users won't tolerate being charged for something they can replace for free (like iChat and Safari). I can't believe Spymac is publishing junk like this (something I'd expect from MOSR :p ).

[Gus]

This is utter nonsense from Spymac. Apple may need money, but they aren't going to resort to charging for a Suite like this. This would be ridiculous. Just don't pay any attention to it.

Regards,
Gus

[nuckinfutz]

I can understand iLife. After all Apple pays a licensing fee to ship iDVD and it's MPEG2 Encoding.

However

iChat- No one is going to pay for an IM.

mail.app- Charging for a Basic OS component? Not smart

Safari- Again no one was asking for Safari. It's not even up to Chimeras level yet.


All in all this sound like another Spymac dream.

[Jaykay]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz

Safari- Again no one was asking for Safari. It's not even up to Chimeras level yet.


All in all this sound like another Spymac dream.

Yeah i cant see anybody paying for an internet browser, when was the last time that happened...?

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by Jaykay
Yeah i cant see anybody paying for an internet browser, when was the last time that happened...?
OmniWeb.

[shadowfax]

guys, guys, i don't think they are going to take down the free DLs. it doesn't look like the article says so either. why assume that they are going to force you to pay? i mean, that wasn't the case with iLife. it changed next to nothing. you always had to pay for iDVD. they just threw the other ones into it so you wouldn't have to DL them.

that's what this will be, only with less incentive to buy. it may not happen, but if it does, this is probably how it will play out.

[iAndy]

Originally posted by Gus
This is utter nonsense from Spymac. Apple may need money, but they aren't going to resort to charging for a Suite like this. This would be ridiculous. Just don't pay any attention to it.
There you go Cupertino - I think your deliberate "marketing test" leaked via Spymac received a resounding :( :eek: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Bear]

Mail and iChat get updated with OS X updates. Safari which is nowhere near prime time is a small download. Most people (if not everyone) should have no problems downloading it.

I can see Apple selling a CD with Safari for their usual $19.95 fee for those who don't want to be bothered downloading it. In that case, I could see Apple loading a few apps on the CD.

I can't see Apple forcing people to pay for Safari as people will just use whatever web browser that they like and is free.

[brogers]

I would like to see iCal, Mail and Address Book put together in one app like Entourage or Outlook. It would be nice to see my calander from within Mail without having to launch another app or work with Address Book from iCal..etc. Does this make any sense at all???

Still would not see a need to charge for it though.

[flyfish29]

Originally posted by yzedf
i say that because you don't make money giving away free software.

$80US to get all of your needs met, seems good to me. music, photos, movies, email, chat, internet etc that people actually want to use?

i am in. i have no problems supporting a company i believe in.

I will second this!

You vote with your $, so why don't you go out and cast your vote for the company you think does it best.


That being said, Apple does need to be careful not to jump the gun on their software sales/packages and make sure it runs well, or else they will be seen as selling inferior (*beta) software packages which is basically Microsoft...right?!?!

I think the marketing apple is doing by writing great software then charging for it later is learned from MS though...they did it with Internet Explorer...it was free, now it is paid for by Windows users (*even if you are just paying for it by paying more for your Windows upgrades to have it built in.) Isn't it ironic that Mac users don't have to "pay" for IE.

[3777]

Originally posted by flyfish29


I will second this!

You vote with your $, so why don't you go out and cast your vote for the company you think does it best.


That being said, Apple does need to be careful not to jump the gun on their software sales/packages and make sure it runs well, or else they will be seen as selling inferior (*beta) software packages which is basically Microsoft...right?!?!

I think the marketing apple is doing by writing great software then charging for it later is learned from MS though...they did it with Internet Explorer...it was free, now it is paid for by Windows users (*even if you are just paying for it by paying more for your Windows upgrades to have it built in.) Isn't it ironic that Mac users don't have to "pay" for IE.

I'm not paying for e-mail and a browser :rolleyes: I'll use Eudora and Chimera thank you.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by 3777


I'm not paying for e-mail and a browser :rolleyes: I'll use Eudora and Chimera thank you.

I would use OS X mail, Chimera, and iLife less iDVD, which is all free/came with my OS.

[3777]

Originally posted by Shadowfax


I would use OS X mail, Chimera, and iLife less iDVD, which is all free/came with my OS.

I'm fine as long as they don't start charging for future versions / updates to Safari, mail, ect...... As long as it's always free then if some nitwit wants to pay for it let them:o

[nuckinfutz]

Apple charges a premium for their computers. Everyone knows their computers have twice the margin of the typical PC so when we hear of even rumors that Apple is considering charging for the basics it's frankly upsetting.

I'm ok with the concept of Apple making money. I agree with .mac. I agree with iLife. However Apple "IS" most likely getting a cut from the plugin developers creating iDVD and iMovie plugins. If not then I stand corrected.

iLife apps represent much more sophistication than this proposed bundle.

The next bundle I'd be willing to pay for would be Apples Digital Hub take on.

1. Phone

2. Television

Those would about cover the rest of the typical consumers needs.

[MrBillGates]

Personally, I'd have no problem paying $30 dollars if apple were to launch another software bundle like iLife. I think it's a financially smart move on Apple's part. The only way they're going to be able to continue to provide us with great software is if they have dollars to fund these projects. Freebies are nice but in this economy there's a limit to how much you can give away. Balking about paying $50 dollars for something like iLife is just petty. Great software doesn't grow on trees.

Now where the hell are those new iPods? :mad:

[3777]

Originally posted by MrBillGates
Personally, I'd have no problem paying $30 dollars if apple were to launch another software bundle like iLife. I think it's a financially smart move on Apple's part. The only way they're going to be able to continue to provide us with great software is if they have dollars to fund these projects. Freebies are nice but in this economy there's a limit to how much you can give away. Balking about paying $50 dollars for something like iLife is just petty. Great software doesn't grow on trees.

Now where the hell are those new iPods? :mad:

I paid for the products mentioned when I bought OSX 10.2:rolleyes: As far as Safari, no one is going to pay for a browser..... if that's why they created Safari they may as well scrap it now because there will always be free browsers that are just as good.

[flyfish29]

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Apple charges a premium for their computers. Everyone knows their computers have twice the margin of the typical PC so when we hear of even rumors that Apple is considering charging for the basics it's frankly upsetting.


This is somewhat inaccurate. Let me explain.

A PC is cheaper as a result of millions upon millions being made (economies of scale) as well as inferior materials and manufacturing processes, etc.

However, the margin is still basically the same %. Microsoft is still getting their high margin mark-up on the software(*we know this as Mr. G is a multi billionaire at least), the co. who makes the hard drive is getting their mark-up, so is the chip manufacturer and the assembler (compaq, Dell, etc.)

Because Apple makes EVERYTHING it does make the amount of profit they make on each computer seem like a high amount, but when the % is broken down it evens out. Apple needs to make money on each element and it just so happens they make all the profit from their computers except ones sold through another retailer (*which they are changing very quickly with Apple.com and Apple Stores)

Just my two cents.:D

[alset]

Not likely. Apple wouldn't dare think of charging for software that performs tasks so basic that they are included with Windows.

"Hey, switch to our platform! We'll make you buy things you always thought were necessities in today's market!"

Say it out load. It helps emphasize the absurdity of it all.

Dan

[Choppaface]

Originally posted by Centris 650
They aren't THAT greedy are they?

well .mac wasn't exactly inexpensive

[alset]

Originally posted by flyfish29

However, the margin is still basically the same %.

I worked at CompUSA when the first G4 came along. That's 1999, for those who forgot. At the time, my manager told me that he wasn't too worried if I sold fewer Macs than my coworkers sold PCs (I was the only Mac guy). The reason stated was higher margins.

Dan

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by 3777
I paid for the products mentioned when I bought OSX 10.2:rolleyes:

Exactly. The ourcries from the cost of Jaguar were allayed when Steve Jobs stood on the Macworld stage and told us that $129 included over 150 new features.

150 new features for $129 does not mean $129 now, more if you want updates (or if you want them to actually, say, work.

No other program (Office, for instance) I know of charges full price for a suite and then hits you up again for the updates to the individual apps.

Then again, this coming from Spymac means we're arguing about how sunny the weather on Triton is.

[3777]

Think about this logically.......... they will include them in all new comps........? .............They will have to include them in future versions of OSX.....unless they want to start taking features out now? So where is the rationale for putting them on CD?

[iAndy]

Originally posted by flyfish29
....A PC is cheaper as a result of millions upon millions being made (economies of scale) as well as inferior materials and manufacturing processes, etc. Now if you had said something like "A PC is cheaper as a result of millions upon millions being made (economies of scale) AND the cut throat hardware margins currently existing in the PC market" I could have agreed with you.

But "inferior materials and manufacturing processes"...
<RANT ON> Come on Flyfish29 cut the blinkered MacNerd diatribe ! :rolleyes:
Just like other PC manufacturers Apple buys most of its components (cpu's, RAM, HDs, LCD screens, superdrives etc. etc.) in from third parties. OK they put them together into a more beautifully packaged whole than most PC manufacturers, but please don't try to convince me that the Intel P4 in my Dell is made from inferior materials or manufacturing process to the G4 in my iMac
<RANT OFF>
That said :o I don't see why Apple shouldn't be supported in their current struggles by charging (reasonable amounts) for software bundles. As long as they don't get too greedy and go over the top, and start charging for something as fundamental as Safari ! Anyway I for one have happily ordered iLife...


Another Thought !
Actually on reflection your comments make me wonder whether anyone has ever done an approximate component cost breakdown of an iMac, PM or PB ? A number of years ago I remember Iomega investors dissected a Zip drive to work out its approximate component cost and therefore profit margin. OK an iMac is a hell of a lot more complicated, but it might be an interesting exercise to approximate the cost of the "Apple component" of an iMac compared to all the included 3rd party components. As I have already seen a Japanese guys website where he dissected his new PB12" :eek: nothing would surprise me from some MacHeads ;)

[3777]

THEY ALREADY DID CHARGE ME WHEN I BOUGHT OSX JAGUAR WITH MAIL AND iCHAT INCLUDED. HELLO?

[scorpion]

What if they bundled iChat, Safari, and Mail but didn't charge? In other words, what if they integrated all surfing features (iSurf)? If you want to buy the CD, you can, but why would you? And they could also bundle Keynote with Appleworks and (iWork) but charged for that because it goes beyond "home" use?

I can't see Apple charging for basic browsing, chat and mail software -- otherwise you would just buy AOL or worse yet, MSN w/IE.

Remember, Apple's best selling computer to date was based around internet access -- I can't imagine them charging for what most people feel is a "core" function -- it's just shy of an OS at this point.

But it would be smart marketing to bundle stuff as "suites" rather than disparate apps -- as much as we criticize M$, they have done a good job with Office and people really like it. I would probably *not* pay for PowerPoint separately but use it every now and then.

Thoughts?

[chewbaccapits]

Originally posted by andyduncan
next bundle: Finder, System Preferences and Terminal.app

Hilarious

:eek:

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by scorpion
What if they bundled iChat, Safari, and Mail but didn't charge? In other words, what if they integrated all surfing features (iSurf)? If you want to buy the CD, you can, but why would you?

this is what i was saying awhile ago. they aren't going to charge, except for the CD. this is similar to iLife. you're just missing iDVD. and anyone with a DVD writer probably doesn't have an issue with dropping 50$ to upgrade his DVD software, viz iDVD, which came with his DVD writer if he bought a mac.

And they could also bundle Keynote with Appleworks and (iWork) but charged for that because it goes beyond "home" use?

i dislike the name, but the idea of integrating Keynote would be a major step in making it a good pro office app like Office v.X.


I can't see Apple charging for basic browsing, chat and mail software -- otherwise you would just buy AOL or worse yet, MSN w/IE.

Remember, Apple's best selling computer to date was based around internet access -- I can't imagine them charging for what most people feel is a "core" function -- it's just shy of an OS at this point.

of course, they charge for the OS. it's not just shy of an OS, but certainly so important to one that it should be part of it.

But it would be smart marketing to bundle stuff as "suites" rather than disparate apps -- as much as we criticize M$, they have done a good job with Office and people really like it. I would probably *not* pay for PowerPoint separately but use it every now and then.

Thoughts?

I think that interconnecting apps is a very cool idea. thinking about this more, i don't see the point of making it a software suite separate from the OS. every OS out there in general use has a browser and mail client, and most have a chat client a la MSN messenger or AIM.

integrating these apps more fully (and linking address book to work COMPLETELY within mail.app instead of having to open it up to edit it) would be an awesome idea. it should be included in an OS update though, like 10.2.5 or 6, or 10.3 if they feel lazy. at any rate, Safari is beta, iChat is as good as beta, as many bugs as it has (probably more than Safari lol)... the only really solid app among the three is mail, and what a great app that is.

of course, all these apps are crying out for features. Internet explorer (PC i am thinking, i haven't used the Mac version) has more features than safari. AIM (windows) has many more features than iChat, and is an order of magnitude more stable, even on that *ugh* OS. both IE and AIM are free. I think apple needs to work on its 2 counterparts in particular, but i don't think that justifies charging for them. i think they should be ad-supported. but not like AIM. that's pathetic. Apple should recognize that these are some of the best ads supporting its OS, and expend resources to maintain those ads.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by iAndy

Another Thought !
Actually on reflection your comments make me wonder whether anyone has ever done an approximate component cost breakdown of an iMac, PM or PB ? A number of years ago I remember Iomega investors dissected a Zip drive to work out its approximate component cost and therefore profit margin. OK an iMac is a hell of a lot more complicated, but it might be an interesting exercise to approximate the cost of the "Apple component" of an iMac compared to all the included 3rd party components. As I have already seen a Japanese guys website where he dissected his new PB12" :eek: nothing would surprise me from some MacHeads ;)

while such a dissection and analysis might be ok, it seems unfair. i mean, if i took apart a CD and added up the cost of the components, i wouldn't be near the 15$ it's clearly worth.. ok, bad example. if i bought a copy of OS X, analyzed the various parts, and tried to figure the profit margin from that, i would figure it's over 130%. you can't just take an apple computer apart and find out how much each part costs. you also have to factor in the cost of developing the design, of testing it, and so on. Apple is not just selling you a bucket of silcone, gold, plastic, and other assorted materials. they are selling you intellectual property. it's not as sensitive as CDs and software, as you can't just stick it in a replicator and have 2, but the intellectual property has a value too. to find apple's profit margin for a computer, i suspect you would have to look at how much they have put into R&D for everything pertaining to the development and production of that computer, and compare it to the net sales of the computer. why take one apart? that is most certainly going to be inaccurate.

[fixyourthinking]

First of all, so many people become an instant skeptic. iLife was made that way for multiple reasons (most are pointed out here in the forum)

A) Ease of installation
B) Integration
C) Bandwidth Limitations
D) iDVD upgrades were ALREADY charged for
E) Profit vs Free Distribution (very minor)

Another reason is "press" and product placement. Apple can, in Apple Stores promote their OWN software in software sections at their stores and CompUSA's (and elsewhere) - some people don't even KNOW that they have these items on their computer or never use them.

I think Apple would be wise, with their next iApp, which most likely would be a video conferencing/possibly even dating/personals integration, bundle it with iCal, Address Book, Mail, Safari 1.0, Internet Connect, iChat, iSync Bluetooth/Modem/Ethernet/Internet?security Updates, even installs of Flash, Quicktime, Shockwave. Maybe throw in some bonus apps from third parties like bandwidth tests and LAN connect utilities or the cool Erricson Client software maybe Palm Pac and Missing Sync. Call it iAM or something, sell it for $49.00 - offer the current free apps for free.

And to anyone saying iChat and Safari (when mature) won't be worth it, you'll go somewhere else, do it. I'd pay in a heartbbeat for a CD like I mentioned above. These apps have have saved me more that 100x in time and ease of use. They should be continually bundled with new Macs to give the appearance of added purchase value.

I also think Apple will be releasing a similar AppleWorks/Keynote/FileMaker Lite Bundle

[MacQuest]

Originally posted by yzedf
i say that because you don't make money giving away free software.

they could offer a plan where you get free upgrades of iLife and iConnect (whatever they call it) for 12 months after the purchase of your new system.

apple is looking for revenue streams. offering kick ass software at good prices is one good way to do it.

think of all the dippy $10US apps out there that people buy, that don't really do much.

$80US to get all of your needs met, seems good to me. music, photos, movies, email, chat, internet etc that people actually want to use?

i am in. i have no problems supporting a company i believe in.

My thoughts exactly.

Although I would rather they combine Safari, Mail, Address Book, iChat, iCal, and iSync to kick MS Outlook's [Entourage] A$$!

The new version of AppleWorks, or whatever they call it, will take care of MS Word & Excel!

Keynote is already in place to rival PowerPoint:)

Microsoft free in '03!!:D

[Sol]

If the next version of iChat offers video conferencing then maybe Apple needs to charge to cover the MP4 license fees. Anyway, I think a package like this is feasible if it includes the .Mac subscription and/or a new version of Appleworks.

It crossed my mind that maybe Apple is doing these packages to reduce the cost of major OS updates., After all most people complained about the cost of Jaguar, so soon after 10.1.

[MacQuest]

Originally posted by Mr. MacPhisto
...could also indicate new versions of ichat...But I doubt it.

Oh boy, are you in for a surprise!!:D

[MacQuest]

.

[MacQuest]

Originally posted by brogers
I would like to see iCal, Mail and Address Book put together in one app like Entourage or Outlook. It would be nice to see my calander from within Mail without having to launch another app or work with Address Book from iCal..etc. Does this make any sense at all???

Still would not see a need to charge for it though.

Why not? To get the tight integration you speak of you have to resort to Entourage for $99.00.

I would gladly pay 1/3, or $30.00 for an Apple branded MS replacement. Or $50.00 if it included a video conferencing enabled iChat and iSync.

[bigizzy]

Safari still has a long way to go before considering it as a mainstream browser.

Mail too similary has some way to go.

iChat needs voice and video conferencing, Chat Rooms built in as well as support for multiple chat protocols (AIM, Jabber, MSN, ICQ etc).

If apple does all this and then If apple can tightly integrate Safari, Mail and iChat; it does make sense for them to sell it albeit at a nominal charge. A nominal charge can be the cost of making a CD for them and $1 above the cost which should not come to more than $10 max. At the same time they have to allow free downloads and free upgrades so that users who do have the bandwidth and or do not want to pay for it can download it for free.

[nero007]

I'm not saying SpyMac is right, but they reported that iTools would be upgraded and turned into a pay service long before that ever happened.

If those apps because pay only I would probably find myself using Proteus, Chimera and Entourage. (which I do anyways)

[Telomar]

If I were Apple rather than selling them solely as packages I'd distribute them free with .Mac. Encourages subscription growth, which is really a much more promising income source.

[bignumbers]

1. Apple releases free web browser and mail client. Check.

2. 3rd-party companies slow or halt development of free web browser and email clients due to Apple including them for free with the OS. Check. (No OE for X, etc.)

3. Apple starts charging for browser and mail client. Users have fewer free quality tools than they did before. This is progress?

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by bignumbers
1. Apple releases free web browser and mail client. Check.

2. 3rd-party companies slow or halt development of free web browser and email clients due to Apple including them for free with the OS. Check. (No OE for X, etc.)

3. Apple starts charging for browser and mail client. Users have fewer free quality tools than they did before. This is progress?

Are you one of those conspiracy theorist or what?

This and the spymac item is A LOAD OF RUBBISH.

I don't know why this has made it onto page 1 though (it should be on macrumors page n, where n is more than 2....).


NicoMan

[achmafooma]

I don't think this is believeable. First off, I rarely hear of anything from SpyMac that turns out to be true... often semi-true, or partly-true, but seldom right-on.

Secondly, with the exception of Safari these apps are considered part of the OS - not add-ons. Case-in-point, Mail and iChat's websites on the Apple site are nestled under the OS X mantra.

Meanwhile, all the iLife programs have their own www.apple.com/iwhatever/ page.

While Apple may do this, their "get rid of the free stuff" theory would seem to back it up with the demise of iTools and all that. I don't know though, these seem to fundamental and their price should be included with the cost of the OS.

The OS I bought twice, by the way, 10.0.4 and 10.2 ;-)

[yzedf]

Originally posted by Shadowfax


while such a dissection and analysis might be ok, it seems unfair. i mean, if i took apart a CD and added up the cost of the components, i wouldn't be near the 15$ it's clearly worth.. ok, bad example. if i bought a copy of OS X, analyzed the various parts, and tried to figure the profit margin from that, i would figure it's over 130%.

Please understand, there is no such thing as a 100% margin. That means it cost $0 to sell it. That can't happen.

[Bear]

Originally posted by brogers
I would like to see iCal, Mail and Address Book put together in one app like Entourage or Outlook. It would be nice to see my calander from within Mail without having to launch another app or work with Address Book from iCal..etc. Does this make any sense at all???

Still would not see a need to charge for it though.
I don't think it should be one application. This discourages people making a mail program that works with the OS X address book for instance.

What I can see is a tighter integration (Like iLife has) - that is whan you are in program X, you automatically start up program Y if it is needed. I see no problem keeping them as seperate applications. You just want them highly integrated which is fine.

I don't want one application that does everything. It makes it harder to test and release new features if it's one application. Therefore keeping them seperate enables easier bug fixes and feature additions.

[flyfish29]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by iAndy
[B]Now if you had said something like "A PC is cheaper as a result of millions upon millions being made (economies of scale) AND the cut throat hardware margins currently existing in the PC market" I could have agreed with you.

But "inferior materials and manufacturing processes"...
<RANT ON> OK they put them together into a more beautifully packaged whole than most PC manufacturers, but please don't try to convince me that the Intel P4 in my Dell is made from inferior materials or manufacturing process to the G4 in my iMac
<RANT OFF>


I agree with most of your statements, even that Intel is making quality chips, but I will say that I believe that the other major components that PC companies put in their computers are inferior often times. Hard drives, modems, mother board construction, etc. There has to be a reason that I have many Mac friends that have never had to replace a hard drive, motherboard, modem, etc. However, I have a wife that has had three motherboards go, a hard drive, as well as two sisters that have had to purchase modems, hard drives, and mother boards for their PC's as well. This is what I mean by cheaper components.

I also mis-spoke earlier about Apple making everything. What I meant is Apple is in control of the manufacturing of everything...they chose the quality of products they do buy from suppliers and it is to their exact specifications. The components are not just some off the shelf component that someone has produced and is selling the heck out of just cause it is cheap...(both $ and quality)

[flyfish29]

Originally posted by yzedf


Please understand, there is no such thing as a 100% margin. That means it cost $0 to sell it. That can't happen.

Actually there is...sort of...not really....

If a prduct costs $50 to make then selling it at $100 is a 100% mark-up

If the total selling price of a product is $100 and you want to know the margin they
get you would say it was %50 margin

People often confuse margin with mark-up which is what I think happened here.

[edenwaith]

All I can ask is: Why?

[TheInevitable]

Originally posted by andyduncan
next bundle: Finder, System Preferences and Terminal.app

-Fricken Hilarious!

I understand Apple needing to charge for software in order to make money, and I even support the idea. But don't charge for those programs. Everyone has become used to having their browser, mail client, and instant messaging for free.

I can see something like iLife, where these programs are still free to download, but have one more valuable application (similar to iDVD) that you can only get by buying the package. That way we're all happy.

[3777]

I can't believe there are people here encouraging Apple to charge for a web browser and e-mail client. HELLO? It comes with OSX? It comes with a Computer? If you want to make money then charge for new innovative programs, some of you people are either Apple employees or just nuts, either way greed will wreck Apple if they're not careful.

P.S. Maybe some of you like itools, but it's not for me. That said, iTools is at least something, charging for a web browser and e-mailer which SHOULD BE INCLUDED in any Operating System? GIVE ME A FRIGAN BREAK!!!!!

If it comes to this then I will move entirely to Linux:rolleyes:

[3777]

Originally posted by Telomar
If I were Apple rather than selling them solely as packages I'd distribute them free with .Mac. Encourages subscription growth, which is really a much more promising income source.

Your talking about a web browser and e-mail program!!! These are included in ANY reputable operating system. And if you think screwing people is going to help .mac .....another royal flop .........oh man

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Centris 650
They aren't THAT greedy are they?

Greed or need. Apple needs to keep growing sales. If it doesn't how long will it be able to develop new cutting edge devices that don't sell much?

Clearly, Apple needs revenues, just look at RAM pricing.

I'd rather see them charge a little for these applets, than what they're doing with RAM. :mad:

I'm delaying my iMac purchase till the end of the month. I want one, but I'm having a tough time giving in to the RAM situation. That's total BS. I want to support Apple and I'm willing to pay a little extra for the design and innovation, but the memory pricing is a little over the edge for me.

[pseudobrit]

10.1 was too big for download, or so they said. Using the Up-To-Date program (they still have Up-To-Date, right?), if you bought a Mac or OSX within a specified time, it was free at any Apple reseller or store if you walked in. Also, it was $19.95 in S&H direct from Apple, but that $19.95 also got you a developer CD.

I think bundling large updates into CD form is a good idea for now. Not everyone is buzzing along on a cable or DSL connection. Charging more than what it cost to physically make the CDs is a bad idea, and ethically wrong.

The iApps were promised as being one with the OS. Even iSync and ...(there was another one) were promised but delayed; they were implied as being one with the OS.

Also, Apple is making more than 50% markup on a $129 Jaguar package. The student discount brought it to $80 for me and teachers are still getting it free. iLife on the other hand costs a teacher $15.

Also, software (and music, for that matter) is unlike physical merchandise when you're talking about profit margins. If it costs, for instance, $10,000 a year to pay the programmers to write a $100 application, and it costs $10 per unit for pressing the CD and distribution, royalties, etc. and you spend $5000 on advertising in a year, once you sell about 165 units, you're making $90 pure profit on that application per unit.

[3777]

Somebody at Spymac finally posted something that makes sense. He said Apple will probably try to integrate the different apps into one big program, and make one large file available for free download, or package / sell it to those people who either don't want to or don't have the connection to download what would probably be one large file. Now that makes at least some sense.

edit: same as what above poster said as well:D

[BOOMBA]

Originally posted by andyduncan
next bundle: Finder, System Preferences and Terminal.app

ha ha ha!
Well, all I can say is if they start selling bundles, then OSX better drop in price to about $40.

Then you can buy each$30 module you want to add.

I recently switched from Entourage to MAIL because I figured sooner or later I would phase out Office, so why not make the switch now and get used to the MAIL interface.

Well, MAIL is OK, but it still lacks a lot of nice features in Entourage, even simple things like being able to assign signatures to specific e-mail accounts BEFORE you write an e-mail. And the ADDRESS BOOK is pretty lame. When you hit ADD SENDER TO ADDRESS BOOK, Address book should OPEN, and let you edit the person's info, and their should be easy cataegries like WORK, FAMILY, and FRIENDS you can assign without having to manually create a new address group, then drag those contacts into it, and then make rules in MAIL to color code thos address in the display window.

Safari seems fine, the new release is good so far, but if it came to paying for Safari and using IE for free, I am going with IE. Safari doesn't yet offer any advntages over IE. Unless Apple is hoping Microsoft dros development of IE now that Safari is coming and it would be the only game in town so it can charge.

I don't use iChat.

So in conclusion, if I have to pay $100 for Keynote, $30 for MAIL, $80 for Appleworks, I will probably just keep upgrading Office for half that price.

(Although I DID just notice Safari isscrolling pages MUCH more smoothly than IE.)

OSX for $40 would be great because as a pro user I buy all their DVD Studio and Final Cut products, I don't need all the consumer versions in my OSX jacking up the price.

If apple is going to go the Microsoft route and gouge people, might as well also offer PRO and CONSUMER versions of the OS.

[BOOMBA]

Originally posted by MorganX


Greed or need. Apple needs to keep growing sales. If it doesn't how long will it be able to develop new cutting edge devices that don't sell much?


Apple still makes it's money from hardware sales, and if their hardware keeps getting slower than PCs, the only to reason to get a MAC is because they come with all this amazing free software. On PC's you have to pay a 3rd party for each video editing /dvd making, mail program you want.

Tell me again why my dad would spend $700 more on an Apple PC than a faster Windows PC if he had to spend just as much on additional software? We graphics users have a bizarre love/hate relationship with our Macs, mainly Love.

But joe consumer needs a REASON to get a mac. It would never occur to me to buy a Windows machine, but most people are not like me, and probably you.

Apple will make money buy selling hardware which comes with great FREE software.

then end.

[rugby]

I agree with most of your statements, even that Intel is making quality chips, but I will say that I believe that the other major components that PC companies put in their computers are inferior often times. Hard drives, modems, mother board construction, etc. There has to be a reason that I have many Mac friends that have never had to replace a hard drive, motherboard, modem, etc. However, I have a wife that has had three motherboards go, a hard drive, as well as two sisters that have had to purchase modems, hard drives, and mother boards for their PC's as well. This is what I mean by cheaper components.
[/B]

You're more right than you think about this. Go to any PC hardware site and look up "Capacitor leaking". You'd be shocked to find out how lousy the quality of capacitors are on cheap motherboards. They leak, cause stability problems, and sometimes even cause total meltdown of components.

I should know, I've been there.

[patman_Z]

If apple is going to charge for everything that was included in Jaguar, then why bother using mac os? so we will end up with :
OSXI=129.00
iLife =49.00
iBasics=29.00
iUsability=19.00
iDarwin=59.00
iPod software = 39.00
airport software =39.00
in Linux everything is included, nice email clients, browsers, Window managers, Graphics software, and it is all free, and all updates are free. I like OSX but I don't want to spend $1000 for what I get for free now. On the other hand, if they are releasing all this for windows.... that is different.... that would rule.

Patman_Z

[MorganX]

Originally posted by rugby


You're more right than you think about this. Go to any PC hardware site and look up "Capacitor leaking". You'd be shocked to find out how lousy the quality of capacitors are on cheap motherboards. They leak, cause stability problems, and sometimes even cause total meltdown of components.

I should know, I've been there.

I've been in the IT industry for 14 years and have never experience a leaky capacitor on a PC motherboard. From the cheapest Shuttle's to SuperMicro and Intel server boards. Never even heard of it.

I don't rely much on "hardware" sites. I find most of their findings and commentary to be out of sync with my real world experiences.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by patman_Z
If apple is going to charge for everything that was included in Jaguar, then why bother using mac os? so we will end up with :
OSXI=129.00
iLife =49.00
iBasics=29.00
iUsability=19.00
iDarwin=59.00
iPod software = 39.00
airport software =39.00
in Linux everything is included, nice email clients, browsers, Window managers, Graphics software, and it is all free, and all updates are free. I like OSX but I don't want to spend $1000 for what I get for free now. On the other hand, if they are releasing all this for windows.... that is different.... that would rule.

Patman_Z

I would rather pay a little for the spit and polish of Apple software than settle for the Linux projects. Other than Evolution, I have found no Linux software finished enough for me. IMO software on Linux for consumer consumption is still very much hobby-like.

[GPTurismo]

I personally would like to see them keep everything the way they have it now for the iApps, but with a cd to get all the other apps for 19.99 or 29.99 with a few extras.

ie,

everything for free to download except iDVD and have

iLife for 49.99
iDVD
iMovie
iTunes
iPhoto

Web & Personal (some cool iName would be good) for 19.99
Mail.app (change it to iMail :S)
Address Book
iCal
Safari
something extra that isn't available on the web

iDeveloper for 19.99
Developer Tools
X11
something extra that isn't available on the web.

So what do you guys think?

[MorganX]

Originally posted by GPTurismo
I personally would like to see them keep everything the way they have it now for the iApps, but with a cd to get all the other apps for 19.99 or 29.99 with a few extras.

ie,

everything for free to download except iDVD and have

iLife for 49.99
iDVD
iMovie
iTunes
iPhoto

Web & Personal (some cool iName would be good) for 19.99
Mail.app (change it to iMail :S)
Address Book
iCal
Safari
something extra that isn't available on the web

iDeveloper for 19.99
Developer Tools
X11
something extra that isn't available on the web.

So what do you guys think?

I think with the money you're giving them when you buy an iMac with 512MB RAM, you should pay for no software except third-party software. Period. For the life of the machine.

[patman_Z]

One problem with the "spit and shine of apple software" most of it is based on open source "linux software" safari is based on the khtml engine that powers konquerer, the also include bind, apache, sendmail, tcsh, sed, vi, awk, grep, gcc, perl, python, IPFW, samba, and a slew of others, and the darwin kernel is "open source" not in the sense that linux is, but a step in the right direction. You are right about Evo though, it does rock. Apple's use of aqua is what sets it apart from the *nices. I would be fooling myself if I thought that apple made all of the software that is included in OSX, if anything there is way less development time for MacOSX than MacOS9 since all of the free apps they use are maintained elsewhere and simply ported to run on the darwin kernel. Apple has done a great job at hiding what they are using for their "enhancements" such as the "connect to server" from finder and no mention of samba, or the "internet connection sharing" in the network part with no mention of ipfw. Don't be fooled though, that is what macOSX is using whether you would like to admit it or not.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by patman_Z
Don't be fooled though, that is what macOSX is using whether you would like to admit it or not.

I have no problem admitting it. But I won't use konqueror for free. I would be willing to pay "something" for safari when it's done. OSS is great. But to get a finished product, you're going to have to pay "someone."

[merges]

I am, frankly, amazed by the number of comments that imply Apple owes its customers for charging X number of dollars for its computers in the first place...

It's hard, out there in fantasy land, to imagine that Apple is a real company, with real people who come in at 8:30 or 9:00 or 10:00 in the morning, get a coffee, have meetings, write things (code, marketing copy, or otherwise), and go home to family in Silicon Valley (where, by the way, living costs are sky-high). These people are very bright and very talented, and they work hard to deliver to you the fine products you use today. And you know what? These people need to get paid to be able to support themselves and their families.

Oh, on top of that, Apple is a business with shareholders. It must make money.

Right now, Apple does give away a lot of great stuff. Terrific software, very useful, very usable, very cool. They don't give away everything though, and while the thought may not have occurred to some of you, this software costs a *lot* of money to make. Thousands upon thousands of person-hours go into making even the first small release of a small utility app. As you may have heard, time equals money.

Whether or not Apple decides to charge for any software that is currently free, keep in mind that if they don't make money, they can't afford to keep employing the same numbers of people. Less people is likely to hamper innovation; in other words, if you don't support Apple, monetarily, you will find yourself forced to support some other company that makes inferior products.

Apple's gotta make money to be able to employ the right people to be able to give you all the features you whine about and ask for (and fast too--can't wait longer than three months for a major new feature in the operating system, like videoconferencing; three months is *way* too long).

Support Apple.

[Side note one: Linux isn't even *close* to ready for prime time; one shouldn't compare it to Mac OS X or Windows.]

[Side note two: Have you ever wondered why Windows seems so cheap? I have. And I know the answer: Piracy.]

[Side note three: You want the functionality provided by iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, Mail, iCal, iSync, Address Book, Safari, iDVD, et cetera, et cetera? But you don't want to pay Apple, say, $100, should they choose to charge that amount for all of those (and who knows what else is up their sleeve...)? Be prepared to fork out hundreds of dollars for that level of integration, support, and quality craftsmanship; and a lot of time troubleshooting and training.]

[yzedf]

Originally posted by 3777
I can't believe there are people here encouraging Apple to charge for a web browser and e-mail client. HELLO? It comes with OSX? It comes with a Computer? If you want to make money then charge for new innovative programs, some of you people are either Apple employees or just nuts, either way greed will wreck Apple if they're not careful.

P.S. Maybe some of you like itools, but it's not for me. That said, iTools is at least something, charging for a web browser and e-mailer which SHOULD BE INCLUDED in any Operating System? GIVE ME A FRIGAN BREAK!!!!!

If it comes to this then I will move entirely to Linux:rolleyes:

I seem to remember people being upset over email/internet/music/movie/etc apps being bundled by M$ with their OS over the years.

Put up or shut up!!!!!!!

Either bundling is ok, or not. I don't give a flying fig who does it.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by yzedf


Please understand, there is no such thing as a 100% margin. That means it cost $0 to sell it. That can't happen.

OK, thanks. never taken economics or anything like that where i would learn, i was just implying that the OS X CD is worth about a dollar, and i hadn't considered the value of the box... but anyways, i was saying that if the CD is worth 1$ (and you assume anything over this value is a profit) and you pay 130... ah, heck, that's a 1300% return, lol. but also 130-fold which is what i had in mind. i don't understand the concept of an actual profit margin though. i just assumed that you have to account for the value of the intellectual property included in a product.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by yzedf


I seem to remember people being upset over email/internet/music/movie/etc apps being bundled by M$ with their OS over the years.

Put up or shut up!!!!!!!

Either bundling is ok, or not. I don't give a flying fig who does it.

i don't think they have ever complained about microsoft offering free mail/IE/media player. that's always been a great idea. but meshing it literally with the OS so that the thing literally breaks if you remove IE (which you can't do), and making it impossible, or nearrly so, to make OTHER 3rd party counterparts your default for a given task, that has always been frowned upon and the issue of many a debate.

bundling basic stuff with an OS is widely accepted and almost universally done. i can't think of any OS that doesn't bundle a mail client and internet browser for free. bundled chat programs are less common, but MS certainly does this, and i imagine there is something like GAIM and certainly IRC stuff on any release of linux.

[patman_Z]

regardless of the the OSS tangent that seemed to happen (really doesn't matter). I don't see how apple charging for things that are currently free right now makes the apps any better. I don't even think it is true because what is Jobs going to say at the next keynote with a new OS "we removed all these apps that were free, and now you have to buy them".....unlikely. He was pretty proud of the 150 features added in X.2 and I don't think he would boast a new "streamlined" version of the OS that didn't have any iApps. Even with iLife the only real thing that changed was they started charging for iDVD. The others are still free, and quite cool for those of us without DVD-R's. I also think that safari is a response to no IE updates besides the security fix a while ago. To each his own on the views of open source, I seem to do quite well with it since I started using it about 6 years ago. It has come a long way from the clunkky, nearly impossible X-configurations to really easy point and click installs and initial configs. Just my opinion.

Patman_Z

[crossed-over]

I think it would help bring in more revenue to our beloved Apple. I, for one, would have no problem spending $30 for iChat alone. Many other iChat users would probably feel the same way once they tried going back to AIM or Messenger. (My peecee friends envy my Mac just because of iChat.)

As for Mail, I was one of those whiners complaining about the $99 for .mac just so I could continue to use Mail. I was hoping that Apple would make a new bundle that included Mail and a few other things so I wouldn't have to fork out $99 a year to keep my very cool mac.com email address.

And on top of it, Safari... I don't use IE anymore. I have evolved. Safari is by far the most productive, "tool" i have used to browse the internet. I say tool, because this program literally does the job i want it to do, and stays out of the way of what i am concerned with. True, Safari still has trouble with many sites, but I am sure by the time they would release this bundle, Safari would have most of these bugs resolved.

So I say, "Great! Go for it Apple." It's only $30, and potentially, that could save me $70 from .mac. And if it doesn't, after all it's only money.

Adam

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by merges
I am, frankly, amazed by the number of comments that imply Apple owes its customers for charging X number of dollars for its computers in the first place...
It's hard, out there in fantasy land, to imagine that Apple is a real company, with real people who come in at 8:30 or 9:00 or 10:00 in the morning, get a coffee, have meetings, write things (code, marketing copy, or otherwise), and go home to family in Silicon Valley (where, by the way, living costs are sky-high). These people are very bright and very talented, and they work hard to deliver to you the fine products you use today. And you know what? These people need to get paid to be able to support themselves and their families.

Oh, those starving basketball players! better not insinuate that they have no right to charge you for their stuff what may be twice in your minds! imagine that! you're sick, sick!


Oh, on top of that, Apple is a business with shareholders. It must make money.

You couldn't be more right.


Right now, Apple does give away a lot of great stuff. Terrific software, very useful, very usable, very cool. They don't give away everything though, and while the thought may not have occurred to some of you, this software costs a *lot* of money to make. Thousands upon thousands of person-hours go into making even the first small release of a small utility app. As you may have heard, time equals money.

and girls = money x time
therefore girls = money^2
and since money = evil^(1/2)
girls = (evil^[1/2])^2
therefore girls = evil.

OK, so apple should charge, because time is money. that doesn't make it a good idea, as many if not most people will just not use the software they can get alsewhere for free. why use safari when you can use chimera? honestly, even if safari surpasses chimera, it's never going to be worth 10$ more. chimera does pretty much everything that 99.9% of users need to do browsing the net.

Whether or not Apple decides to charge for any software that is currently free, keep in mind that if they don't make money, they can't afford to keep employing the same numbers of people. Less people is likely to hamper innovation; in other words, if you don't support Apple, monetarily, you will find yourself forced to support some other company that makes inferior products.

Apple's gotta make money to be able to employ the right people to be able to give you all the features you whine about and ask for (and fast too--can't wait longer than three months for a major new feature in the operating system, like videoconferencing; three months is *way* too long).

Support Apple.


yes, support apple. Apple's problem isn't whether they should charge for software; they need a larger user base. of course, the laws of supply and demand apply here. as in, if they supply for a price a piece of software that people demand be free, people won't buy it. there are and will be free alternatives, unless they try to go MS and monopolize.


[Side note one: Linux isn't even *close* to ready for prime time; one shouldn't compare it to Mac OS X or Windows.]

What? define your terms. linux is in prime time on the server market, and with people who *gasp* know what they're doing on a computer. RedHat and Linux-Mandrake, to name a few, are FULL-FEATURED OSes with perfectly valid comparisons to both OS X and Windows. the fact that its features may be more difficult (read: different) to sort out and so on than Windows' or OS X's, doesn't mean it's not ripe for comparison.


[Side note two: Have you ever wondered why Windows seems so cheap? I have. And I know the answer: Piracy.]

Windows is expensive. 300$ expensive. and it's really not provable that it is because of piracy. look at the record industry. i think that MP3 sharing arose because of gross overpricing. and nevertheless, sales remained healthy during the golden days of napster. when napster shut down, sales began to decline much faster than before. Microsoft makes, what, an 85% profit margin on Windows? i have heard that, can't confirm. they make a considerable amount. Bill Gates is personally one of the wealthiest men in the world; microsoft is not "about to go under because of piracy and thus must charge exhorbitant amounts for it's [uninnovative] OS." They have a monopoly and actively take great advantage of that fact.

[Side note three: You want the functionality provided by iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, Mail, iCal, iSync, Address Book, Safari, iDVD, et cetera, et cetera? But you don't want to pay Apple, say, $100, should they choose to charge that amount for all of those (and who knows what else is up their sleeve...)? Be prepared to fork out hundreds of dollars for that level of integration, support, and quality craftsmanship; and a lot of time troubleshooting and training.]

You know, i went to the OS X site lately, and the ENTIRE advertising pitch for it consists of:
UNIX based (that was free for them)
Quartz (ingenious, but not worth 129$)
the apps you mentioned. have you seen OS X ads in magazines? they have pictures of iChat, Sherlock, iPhoto, iMovie.... how are you going to advertise OS X when suddenly all the best reasons to buy it are sold separately? buy os x, and for another 100$, you can get all these apps that were free yesterday. hmm. good idea.

like i said, apple won't [shouldn't] do this.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by crossed-over
And if it doesn't, after all it's only money.

Adam

only money? did you forget that the 90s are over? people [sensible people] aren't blowing cash needlessly like they used to.

a fool and his money are soon parted (partying, says deskmod).

[patman_Z]

well said shadowfax, I see the source is with you. One thing kind of unrelated is about the darwin kernel for X86 (implying OSX on "windows machines") I downloaded it, installed it, and was kind of dissapointed. It was pretty slow on a P4 1.3Ghz, and on top of that I got freezes without core dumps or any syslog entries. this was the version 6.01 by the way. Apple did however provide a 3com 905 driver (previously they only had intel 82xxx network card support). but despite that I see safari as more of a path away from Microsoft than anything. The less apple depends on M$ the easier it will be to release OSX on Intel. I know that if they do release that it won't be for a long while, I heard that it would be on par with the palladium release (Hardware crypto thingy that means M$ decides what you can run on your machine). Also something to be said about OSX configurations, if you choose the UFS filesystem, then iMovie will not export movies to quicktime. It will look like it is and then the movie won't be there. This is because iMovie writes blah.mov~ and ~ means something different to UFS than HFS+. try it if you dont believe me :-)

Patman_Z

[merges]

What? define your terms. linux is in prime time on the server market, and with people who *gasp* know what they're doing on a computer. RedHat and Linux-Mandrake, to name a few, are FULL-FEATURED OSes with perfectly valid comparisons to both OS X and Windows. the fact that its features may be more difficult (read: different) to sort out and so on than Windows' or OS X's, doesn't mean it's not ripe for comparison.

-----

I was, of course, referring to the dearth of actually usable applications for the vast majority of users. Computers aren't like race cars, they're not even like stick-shift cars, they're not even cars anymore that only trained people can use. They are telephones, televisions, light switches.

Except in certain cases, of course, but those race-car-Linux-types aren't depending on iChat and iMovie.

Think of who these apps are for, what these apps do. Linux is useless in comparison. Windows is a big, expensive, tedious stretch. And Apple? They can happily advertise Mac OS X as the platform on which you use all of these great products featured in the advertisement, charge or no.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by merges

I was, of course, referring to the dearth of actually usable applications for the vast majority of users. Computers aren't like race cars, they're not even like stick-shift cars, they're not even cars anymore that only trained people can use. They are telephones, televisions, light switches.

Except in certain cases, of course, but those race-car-Linux-types aren't depending on iChat and iMovie.

Think of who these apps are for, what these apps do. Linux is useless in comparison. Windows is a big, expensive, tedious stretch. And Apple? They can happily advertise Mac OS X as the platform on which you use all of these great products featured in the advertisement, charge or no.

I was being slightly sarcastic. i know they reach different audiences, and i wasn't serious about my bash of users who can't use linux, but i'll be perfectly honest--GIMP may not be the most useable program, but MANY linux programs are easily useable. OpenOffice comes to mind. there's a learning curve on every OS. windows would, in a number of ways, be very difficult to learn for society as a whole if everyone were used to Redhat. Redhat is not like a race car any more than OS X is. you can jump into a terminal and turn your OS X into a race car just as easily as redhat, opening a terminal, using developer tools, enabling root, and all sorts of other stuff i can't even imagine. this is why many linux users are drooling over OS X. If you haven't, you should go try KDE before you start to argue again. It's very user friendly, and there are many welcome comparisons between its features and OS X's. mind you, i am not saying it is AS GOOD AS OS X. if that were the criterion for comparison, i personally think you couldn't compare any OS to OS X. but you said you couldn't compare linux to Windows and OS X, and let me reiterate that YOU CAN and I DO.

examples: KDE has a web browser that is good enough for apple to use as a code base. GNOME has GAIM, a chat client (not a very good one, but hey). There are numerous mail apps for linux, not to mention office productivity apps and so on. Linux does not consist simply of Apache, Console, and a hundred thousand apps that are utterly inaccessible to the average user.

[Telomar]

Originally posted by 3777


Your talking about a web browser and e-mail program!!! These are included in ANY reputable operating system. And if you think screwing people is going to help .mac .....another royal flop .........oh man Apple will package them with new computers just like they have iLife. Apple packages .Mac trials with new computers even so the argument of them not being packaged with new computers won't work.

It'd be prefereable to selling them as individual packages though. That's not a statement on whether they should do it only that packaging their now free apps into .Mac would make them considerably more money in after sales revenue.

[patman_Z]

race cars, computers, toasters? all the same. I see your point, although wait nope, I don't. Useable apps you must mean like office? OpenOffice 1.0 works pretty well and does the same job in the same way as M$ office, and doesn't need a babbling paperclip to do it. Mozilla, konquerer, galeon, all browse the web, all in the same way as IE. Evolution is an outlook replacement, Gimp does photos (pictures to the layperson) and xmms is a fine mp3/ogg player. all of these come with, and are just as easy and just as well as any other program that does the same thing, with the added bonus that most are multi platform, and written portably. If you are going to say something negative, at least try it before you go yapping about how it sucks, and is not ready for primetime. Guess what this server is running?

Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a mod_log_bytes/0.3 mod_bwlimited/1.0 PHP/4.2.2 FrontPage/5.0.2.2510 mod_ssl/2.8.9 OpenSSL/0.9.6b on Linux

now what is this about not primetime?

[Centris 650]

Ok, my 2 cents.

I thought Mail and iChat were already bundled together...in OS X! Check the OS X site. It's a feature of the OS.

Let's just say that they decide to charge for upgrading Safari, Mail and iChat in one CD. (Others have posted this idea) I don't agree but if they DID then it should only be for major upgrades like going from Safari 2 to Safari 3. If you bought Safari 2 and 2.01 or 2.9 is released then you should be able to download the upgrade.
If you had to pay for Safari 2.01 and already had 2 that would bite.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by patman_Z
race cars, computers, toasters? all the same. I see your point, although wait nope, I don't. Useable apps you must mean like office? OpenOffice 1.0 works pretty well and does the same job in the same way as M$ office, and doesn't need a babbling paperclip to do it. Mozilla, konquerer, galeon, all browse the web, all in the same way as IE. Evolution is an outlook replacement, Gimp does photos (pictures to the layperson) and xmms is a fine mp3/ogg player. all of these come with, and are just as easy and just as well as any other program that does the same thing, with the added bonus that most are multi platform, and written portably. If you are going to say something negative, at least try it before you go yapping about how it sucks, and is not ready for primetime. Guess what this server is running?

Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a mod_log_bytes/0.3 mod_bwlimited/1.0 PHP/4.2.2 FrontPage/5.0.2.2510 mod_ssl/2.8.9 OpenSSL/0.9.6b on Linux

now what is this about not primetime?

good call, but could you quote who you're responding to? i was a little bit confused for a second (and then removed of all doubt fairly quickly). the quote button under each post is a very useful tool :)

linux, as i have been saying, is just as powerful as any other OS (why might OS X be based on it?), and it has fairly easy apps aplenty, as you so nicely restated for me, with much more technical accuracy.

[3777]

Originally posted by Centris 650
Ok, my 2 cents.

I thought Mail and iChat were already bundled together...in OS X! Check the OS X site. It's a feature of the OS.

Let's just say that they decide to charge for upgrading Safari, Mail and iChat in one CD. (Others have posted this idea) I don't agree but if they DID then it should only be for major upgrades like going from Safari 2 to Safari 3. If you bought Safari 2 and 2.01 or 2.9 is released then you should be able to download the upgrade.
If you had to pay for Safari 2.01 and already had 2 that would bite.

That's what i've been saying. I paid for iChat, ect..... when I bought OSX!!! Not the Hardware....... now as for updates, if Apple really planned on charging for updates then their software updater which is a big feature for them .......especially when winning over "switchers" .....is then completely useless. I am telling you common sense shows there is something seriously messed up with the Spymac story.

Now as for anyone who says they would gladly pay for iCHat and e-mail.... YOU ALREADY DID WHEN YOU PAID FOR OSX!!!!! Duh......... who in their right mind would gladly pay for something TWICE???:rolleyes: If that's the case and you love apple so much then let them set up a pay pal program for these nit wits.:o

[iAndy]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
Windows is expensive. 300$ expensive. and it's really not provable that it is because of piracy. look at the record industry. i think that MP3 sharing arose because of gross overpricing. and nevertheless, sales remained healthy during the golden days of napster. when napster shut down, sales began to decline much faster than before. Certainly I agree with about gross overpricing encouraging piracy. When I moved out here to Hong Kong 10 years ago, pirate VCDs were everywhere. The government agencies repeatedly said that they would stamp it out. It never happened - for more than a couple of days. What did stamp it out, was when film distributors got less greedy. Today big outfits like HMV are selling VCDs at US$2-3 - guess what, pirate VCDs have all but dissapeared. But DVDs - well that's another cycle we have to go through... ;)

But as for Napster, surely the recession and dotcom fallout had something to do with sales declining?

Originally posted by Shadowfax
microsoft is not "about to go under because of piracy and thus must charge exhorbitant amounts for it's [uninnovative] OS." Absolutely right. Actually I remember talking to an MS product manager at a FoxPro Devcon some years ago about the piracy situation in SE Asia. He said that MS were unofficially turning a blind eye to it for now, because 90% of developers in the region (then) were learning and using their product. Then they expected to clean up on legally licensed software once better copyright laws were established. Meanwhile they bitched like hell publicly about all the $B's that they were loosing in the region...

Originally posted by Shadowfax
...They [MS] have a monopoly and actively take great advantage of that fact. Maybe ironic, but isn't that what Apple are also trying to do here?

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by iAndy
But as for Napster, surely the recession and dotcom fallout had something to do with sales declining?

yes, you're right. It's highly debatable in the napster case. but, as you say, the more incentive there is to steal, the more it happens. when that incentive is unjustifiable, i don't think anyone should be surprised.

Absolutely right. Actually I remember talking to an MS product manager at a FoxPro Devcon some years ago about the piracy situation in SE Asia. He said that MS were unofficially turning a blind eye to it for now, because 90% of developers in the region (then) were learning and using their product. Then they expected to clean up on legally licensed software once better copyright laws were established. Meanwhile they bitched like hell publicly about all the $B's that they were loosing in the region...

Maybe ironic, but isn't that what Apple are also trying to do here?

well, like many of us have said, this doesn't look like apple is actually going to do this. apple isn't shutting out other browsers, they are trying to make theirs the best so people want to use it. i don't think they will ever charge for this stuff (mail, iChat, safari).. that would be anticompetitive (as in, they know they would lose).

[fixyourthinking]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shadowfax


yes, you're right. It's highly debatable in the napster case. but, as you say, the more incentive there is to steal, the more it happens. when that incentive is unjustifiable, i don't think anyone should be surprised.


Completely the wrong assertion. The MAJORITY of those that use Napster/File Sharing Services never would have bought the items to begin with. So, they are neither stealing, nor are they reducing sales numbers.

Before, they simply borrowed from a friend, went to their buddy at the music store that would let them "borrow" some stuff in the used bin for a night, or in the case of software, went on the local network and took it or bought hard drives, or used the "family's install".

The real reason for decline in sales is CRAP. This isn't a justification. If there's anyone that's an advocate for shareware, software, and artists rights and property, it's me. A partial reason, is a slower than "late 90's" economy. The economy slowdown, is due to the bastardization of economic policies by Clinton, and further slowed due to 9/11.

Clinton was a BIG advocate of DMCA and anything MY state Senator would throw his way.

My analogy/example is; Microsoft Word is the defacto it is because of piracy. (I just bought a new computer, I'm gonna borrow my brother's copy of Office to install on it) AND How would people even know who The WiseGuys (Start The Commotion), TelepopMusik (Just Breathe), and Dirty Vegas (Days Go By) are without filesharing? Those were some of the biggest hits of 2002. How? People typed, "Mitsubishi Commercial" into file sharing services. If you don't beleive this is how these artists are discovered, download Limewire, click on the "monitor tab" - one out of every 15-20 searches is "Mitsubishi Commercial". Now, compare this to me, going in to even a national record chain, a few days after the song came out, from a commercial, and say, "Do you have that song from the new Mitsubishi Commercial?" They look at you funny or say, "howzit go?" They NEVER have it or don't know it!!! However, sales for these groups SINGLES were almost 6 MILLION - not to mention all three have been on Jay Leno (and other shows) and get greater headliner pricing for concerts.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by adzoox
How would people even know who The WiseGuys (Start The Commotion

This is how I was introduced to the Wiseguys.

[GPTurismo]

I wasn't saying that they make you pay for those apps, I was saying that they stil have the ones available for download, still available for download, but offer Packages with those apps and maybe a few extras on a cd for like 20 bucks to generate a little cash...

::shrugs::

[gaijinjim]

Originally posted by bignumbers
1. Apple releases free web browser and mail client. Check.

2. 3rd-party companies slow or halt development of free web browser and email clients due to Apple including them for free with the OS. Check. (No OE for X, etc.)

3. Apple starts charging for browser and mail client. Users have fewer free quality tools than they did before. This is progress?

Okay, if everything I have read on the web is true the above won't happen.

Apparently, Apple has released the html engine, if I remember correctly, it's called WebCore as opensource or a variation of it.

Point one: The makers of OmniWeb are looking to use WebCore as its HTML engine and they would focus on its interface.

Point Two: Apparently, Intuit, makers of Quicken and QuickBooks, are looking to use WebCore as its HTML engine in its apps.

The next bundled software will more than likely be an office suite. Keynote made its debut. Now comes the updated/vervised version of AppleWorks, more than likely bundled under a different name. Forget the name of the progammer who joined Apple last year that was instrumental in another office suite; forget which one.

Don't worry people you are more than likely getting upset about nothing. Since Steve Jobs has returned the inital innovation, desire and quest of the best has returned to Apple. Could you imagine Apple Stores five years ago? I couldn't.

Apple will be around and won't alientated its customers. If they did, a lot would be flocking to Linux once it gets its kinks worked out. You may not know but the lastest Red Hat version 8.0 doesn't include mp3 support. You have to install it yourself.

Apple will do you right!!!!

[fixyourthinking]

The point of bundles is not really to charge, it's to market them. Apple can have their software sitting on shelves next to "the other guys" - people with low bandwidth can buy a bundle of Apps that take forever to download. I think Apple should sell $19.95-$49.95 packages of everything - the bonus will be one new app or one app that makes up MOST of the cost of the package, as iDVD is. Jobs was speaking from the heart when he said that iDVD is charged for because it's so big. It is a burden on Apple Servers and a burden on customers (in iDVD's case even broadband users).

[coolsoldier]

adzoox has a good pont in that Apple is really just charging to distribute these apps. After all, all of the iLife apps are still free (except iDVD, which was never free, just bundled with the system, as it remains).

For people with slow connections (myself included) it's worth something to get software on CD.

[Winston Smith]

The next bundled software will more than likely be an office suite. Keynote made its debut. Now comes the updated/vervised version of AppleWorks, more than likely bundled under a different name.

Spot on

We now have iLife - for your digital life -
Next could be iOrg - to organise your life- Safari, mail, iChat, iCal, iSync & .mac
Then iOffice - for your work life - Keynote, Appleworks, etc.

They all include something that would be charged for anyway but they also all work together AND can be marketed together.

Any cool ideas for the ads?:cool:

[zach]

i also agree with adzook. I would have no problem with apple charging for a package of Safari, Mail, iChat, and some new thing IF Safari, Mail, and iChat were still all available for download. I am lucky enough to have broadband, but i still remeber the utter hell of trying to download large files with dial-up. If i still had dial-up, i would rather pay 50 bucks for safari mail and ichat on a CD than take 10 hours to download them.

Just my thoughts :-)

[Centris 650]

Originally posted by Winston Smith



We now have iLife - for your digital life -
Next could be iOrg - to organise your life- Safari, mail, iChat, iCal, iSync & .mac
Then iOffice - for your work life - Keynote, Appleworks, etc.



To quote Jason Fox from the Fox Trot comic..." iThink iWill bSick" Apple needs to drop the "i"thing. It's old. Move on!

In case anyone thinks that they will keep this i thing going for too much longer look at the "mac" naming scheme of the 80's. It got old and they dropped it too. No more i's. Please!:p :D