OK, when is enough enough...?

[iGary]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The government is secretly collecting records of ordinary Americans' phone calls in an effort to build a database of every call made within the country, it was reported Thursday.

AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth telephone companies began turning over records of tens of millions of their customers' phone calls to the National Security Agency program shortly after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, said USA Today, citing anonymous sources it said had direct knowledge of the arrangement.

The program does not involve listening to or taping the calls. Instead it documents who talks to whom in personal and business calls, whether local or long distance, by tracking which numbers are called, the newspaper said.

The NSA and the Office of National Intelligence Director did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

[Chundles]

I dare say that's been going on a hell of a lot longer than the 5 years that article says.

[Blue Velvet]

Now it's your turn. Most of us have been living under Echelon for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

[pseudobrit]

I thought one (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=199907) was enough.

[FFTT]

The system of checks and balances is being ignored by our esteemed
representatives.

Apparently this administration has managed to place themselves above the law in spite of the law and sadly no one has the guts to put it to a screeching halt.

[dornoforpyros]

My dad works for a phone company (not in the US mind you) and he always said "never say anything on the phone you wouldn't yell out your front door"

[IJ Reilly]

My dad works for a phone company (not in the US mind you) and he always said "never say anything on the phone you wouldn't yell out your front door"

The only real difference being, if you make a habit of yelling out your front door, you'll eventually be arrested for disturbing the peace.

[~Shard~]

So it wouldn't be a good idea to say, "That Jefferson Airplane concert I saw last night in New York was da bomb!" on a phone call?

[Thomas Veil]

Oh! Well! There's nothing to worry about:

Facing intense criticism from Congress, President Bush did not confirm the work of the National Security Agency but sought to assure Americans that their privacy is being "fiercely protected."

"We are not mining or trolling through the personal lives of innocent Americans," Bush said before leaving for a commencement address at Mississippi Gulf Coast Community College in Biloxi.Whew! For a minute there I was worried!!

Hey, wait a second...

Whatever happened to "We're only monitoring overseas calls"?

For that matter, whatever happened to the Fourth Amendment?

...From the same article:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congressional Republicans and Democrats demanded answers from the Bush administration Thursday about reports that a government spy agency has been secretly collecting records of ordinary Americans' phone calls to build a database of every call made within the country....

The disclosure could complicate Bush's bid to win confirmation of former NSA director Gen. Michael Hayden as CIA director.

Congressional Democrats had demanded answers from the Bush administration about a report that the government secretly collected records of ordinary Americans' phone calls to build a database of every call made within the country....

On Capitol Hill, Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pennsylvania, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said he would call the phone companies to appear before the panel "to find out exactly what is going on."

Before the latest report, Specter said the committee "has been unable to perform our constitutional oversight responsibilities to determine the constitutionality of the program."

(Sen. Patrick) Leahy sounded incredulous about the latest report and railed against what he called a lack of congressional oversight. He argued that the media was doing the job of Congress.

"Are you telling me that tens of millions of Americans are involved with al Qaeda?" Leahy asked. "These are tens of millions of Americans who are not suspected of anything ... Where does it stop?"

The Democrat, who at one point held up a copy of the newspaper, added: "Somebody ought to tell the truth and answer questions. They haven't. The press has done our work for us and we should be ashamed. Shame on us for being so far behind and being so willing to rubber stamp anything this administration does. We ought to fold our tents."...

The report came as the former NSA director Hayden -- Bush's choice to take over leadership of the CIA -- had been scheduled to visit lawmakers on Capitol Hill. However, the meetings with Republican Sens. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska were postponed at the request of the White House, congressional aides in the two Senate offices said.

The White House offered no reason for the postponement to the lawmakers. Other meetings with lawmakers were still planned....That clunk! you just heard was Bush's approval rating dropping another couple of points.

I love that rant from Patrick Leahy. Give 'em hell, sir! Yeah, we've become Communist Russia, just with better technology. :mad:

Time for the you-know-what to really hit the fan.

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/11/nsa.phonerecords.ap/index.html)

[iGary]

Scary thing is my father, rest his soul, worked for these people for 35 years and my uncle was Deputy Director at one point...:eek: :rolleyes: :mad:

[Dont Hurt Me]

This makes me sick, lets see, we are going to ignore millions of mexicans,arabs and whoever strolling in, yet we want to spy on every phone call U.S. citizens make? what the hell is going on in our country. There is only 1 solution and thats impeach this sorry president and vote out every single republican.

[mactastic]

Is this the straw that will break the 30% floor?

[Nickygoat]

So it wouldn't be a good idea to say, "That Jefferson Airplane concert I saw last night in New York was da bomb!" on a phone call?
That would probably be flagged by the program but all flagged calls are then run through another set of instructions to determine the number calling and the number dialled. If either of those match it gets sent to an analyst to determine whether it's "interesting" or not. Some calls are sent direct for analysis, depending on pre-set criteria.
All in the name of security.
@ Blue Velvet - ECHELON, as your linked article implies, was used for analysis of member nations, i.e GCHQ would analyse US traffic, NSA would look at British traffic etc. Whether that still happens I've no idea, especially after recent revelations. I'm guessing the NSA took over domestic intercepts.
All in the name of security.

[Dont Hurt Me]

If everyone here at Macrumors took a few moments to exercise their democratic rights and contacted Congress we could turn this around. If we all sit around like sheep then we deserve the royal screwing Bush & gang are giving our Country. Take a moment and let your representitives know how you feel. You will feel better also that at least you tried to have your voice heard.......here it is again...http://www.visi.com/juan/congress Its our country not the Neocons.

[eva01]

Bush says U.S. not 'trolling through personal lives' (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/11/nsa.phonerecords/index.html?section=cnn_topstories)

[3rdpath]

Is this the straw that will break the 30% floor?


i would predict yes.

Orwell is beginning to look like an optimist.

[OutThere]

So, based on this, do you guys think it's bad that I call a pay phone in downtown L.A. 5 times a day and say "Bomb. Car. Airplane. Guns. Assassinate." 15 times?

[calebjohnston]

The only real difference being, if you make a habit of yelling out your front door, you'll eventually be arrested for disturbing the peace.

teeeeeeeeeeeeeeheheheeheh.

[joepunk]

So it wouldn't be a good idea to say, "That Jefferson Airplane concert I saw last night in New York was da bomb!" on a phone call?
I'll make sure to never say "Hi Jack" on the phone

[Dont Hurt Me]

Bush says U.S. not 'trolling through personal lives' (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/11/nsa.phonerecords/index.html?section=cnn_topstories)
This is the same Bush who said we were just recording foreign phone calls to al-Queda isnt it? He is a Liar, and he isnt a Christian by any stretch. He is a Military,Corporate puppet stealing our liberties,freedoms and values everyday. Destroying everything that made us what we were. Congress is letting him. Throw both out is the only answer for the American People. Get registered and vote people, contact your representatives.

[mactastic]

Someone somewhere was pointing out that even a database of all the calls made by all Americans over the last five years wouldn't amount to 'the largest database in the world'. Many companies routinely employ larger databases.

What would push the governments database to 'the worlds largest' stature is if you attached an audio file to each of those phone call datums...

Computer nerds, what do you think?

[zimv20]

Computer nerds, what do you think?
i agree. storing two phone numbers and a start and end time doesn't take up much space.

now, storing decades worth of every stock trade made, that'll add up.

[zimv20]

Bush says U.S. not 'trolling through personal lives' (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/11/nsa.phonerecords/index.html?section=cnn_topstories)
someone doesn't have his story straight. from a 2002 hayden statement (http://www.nsa.gov/releases/relea00072.html):

27. Another part of our strategy for nearly three years has been a shift to a greater reliance on American industry. We have been moving along this path steadily and we have the metrics to show it. As you know, in project GROUNDBREAKER we have already outsourced a significant portion of our information technology so that we can concentrate on mission. We have partnered with academia for our systems engineering. I have met personally with prominent corporate executive officers. (One senior executive confided that the data management needs we outlined to him were larger than any he had previously seen). Three weeks ago we awarded a contract for nearly $300 million to a private firm to develop TRAILBLAZER, our effort to revolutionize how we produce SIGINT in a digital age. And last week we cemented a deal with another corporate giant to jointly develop a system to mine data that helps us learn about our targets. In terms of "buy vs. make" (the term Congress has used), we spent about a third of our SIGINT development money this year making things ourselves.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Someone somewhere was pointing out that even a database of all the calls made by all Americans over the last five years wouldn't amount to 'the largest database in the world'. Many companies routinely employ larger databases.

What would push the governments database to 'the worlds largest' stature is if you attached an audio file to each of those phone call datums...

Computer nerds, what do you think?I think we will find they are recording but that wont come out till after the next election. Trust nothing coming out of this administration. Nothing.

[thedude110]

Right. Not trolling or mining.

Just listening in. Like a good parent deciding who you should and shouldn't date.

Or where you can go. And with whom.

The scary thing is if the right follows through on a stategy of smearing the left (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12703794/)in this upcoming election, and if anti-gay marriage ammendments turn out voters, nothing may change ...

[mactastic]

Just think of all the times the claim has been made that the left wants to impose a 'nanny state' upon us...

[rdowns]

The scary thing is if the right follows through on a stategy of smearing the left (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12703794/)in this upcoming election, and if anti-gay marriage ammendments turn out voters, nothing may change ...

And the smearing will work as the Dems have not a single strong voice to speak for them.

Howard Dean - perceived as angry and mad.
John Kerry - an alternative to pharmaceutical Ambien.
Hillary Clinton - too many people hate her.
Al Gore - he's gotten better but I think he's finished.
Nancy Pelosi - has there ever been a less effective party leader in Congress?

[thedude110]

Of all the things the right is good at, they're especially good at "cutting off the head" of the opposition. When a party leader emerges, the right is quick to dehumanize ...

[mactastic]

Of all the things the right is good at, they're especially good at "cutting off the head" of the opposition. When a party leader emerges, the right is quick to dehumanize ...
Don't forget calling them crazy. As in "Al Gore seems to be off his lithium again".

[Dont Hurt Me]

And the smearing will work as the Dems have not a single strong voice to speak for them.

Howard Dean - perceived as angry and mad.
John Kerry - an alternative to pharmaceutical Ambien.
Hillary Clinton - too many people hate her.
Al Gore - he's gotten better but I think he's finished.
Nancy Pelosi - has there ever been a less effective party leader in Congress?At the moment I would agree, They have simply played Mr opposite while receiving those campaign donations from the same companies that pay off the republicans. Both are dirty as hell. Until we cut off the lobbiest neither are going to be working for us and both will continue working for the corporations both domestic and foreign.

[Boggle]

Hell, given who a couple of my close friends are I ASSUME some of my conversations are recorded. & considering what we talk about I'm never going to hold public office. :D Frankly, now that I think about it....how do they still have their jobs?

[Thomas Veil]

Right. Not trolling or mining.

Just listening in.Technically, from what I've read, the "listening in" part still applies only to overseas calls -- as far as we know.

This latest development says only -- again, as far as we know -- that they're keeping records of everybody's calls...something like a file showing the phone numbers of everyone you've ever contacted by phone.

That doesn't make it a whole lot less odious. It's still has "Big Brother" written all over it. :mad: And, as others have pointed out, if they are not already keeping audio files of all phone calls, they probably are planning to.

This just gives me the creeps, big time. When I was growing up, all those socio-political-scientific paranoia stories were supposed to serve as warnings only. Well, "Network" has already come true, "1984" is in the process of coming true, and it doesn't seem as silly anymore to wonder if soon The Prisoner's white balloon, Rover, will be patrolling our borders keeping the aliens out...and us in.

[jessica.]

My dad works for a phone company (not in the US mind you) and he always said "never say anything on the phone you wouldn't yell out your front door"
My Dad is a doctor and he said the same thing so it must be true!

[FFTT]

Bush says U.S. not 'trolling through personal lives'

How much you wanna bet they've got records of every single call made by
every single opposing politician or anyone they consider a political threat.

I'm seeing more and more that Bush and Co are doing this as a means
to control their own political terrorism.

One congressman makes too much trouble and they reveal all the calls he made to his escort service or worse.

So in effect Bush did not lie.

They are not keeping track of ordinary citizens.

They are keeping tabs on anyone who threatens their political power.

Who, you ask?

Ah that's classified as a matter of national security.

[solvs]

The only ones who are going to be ok with this are those who already support Bush, and even some of them aren't falling for this. It has nothing to do with terrorism, and they know it. Look at Iraq. Even people who believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11 are getting sick of us being there. I too remember when Republicans were the ones worried about the nanny state, but at this point, I think 9/11 scared some people so much at first that they were willing to send our rights out the window. But Americans are fickle, and we get sick of the same things over and over again, so now comes the backlash as stuff like this no longer makes us feel safer. Quite the opposite really. And now the same Republicans who gave him this power are surprised and angered that he and his administration and all their cronies abused it. Duh.

Anyone want to make a comment about Hitler or fascism, because I'm starting to think we're getting close. Used to think such talk was crazy, now I'm not so sure. Absolute power, and all...

[Dont Hurt Me]

Bush has shown he cant be trusted on anything from WMDs to Katrina to Schools being left behind, to the enviroment to Oil Companies and Energy to now Spying on Americans. Nothing this man ever says seems to be honest. Im sure this is the same thing. In order to catch those couple of Al-queda calls they would have to be recording everyone. This will come out and again our President will be shown to be not telling the truth. 1984 . Here comes the police state, Fascist America. Oh by the way those firewalls are useless against the NSA. They can be in anyones computer along with recording everyones phone calls. The people are becoming the ememy of the state.

[thedude110]

Technically, from what I've read, the "listening in" part still applies only to overseas calls -- as far as we know.


You're absolutely right -- as far as we know. ;)

What really worries me is how many of my colleagues -- many of whom are liberals and fairly examining people -- are ok with this. Which makes me think it's a Roveish "wedge issue" -- a designed leak to allow the president to stand up and make the right look strong against terrorism. It shows the right "doing something" and it distracts from Iraq. And Iran. And if people don't mind being mined, it makes the left look like they're not tough against terrorism.

The consequences scare me to death. I'm probably paranoid, but I see power grab -- or worse, the beginning of power consolidation -- written all over this.

[FFTT]

Now that hard encrypted e-mail, chat and VOIP have become so easily available, I doubt if tracking normal calls will do any good.

These phone records and calling patterns will be used to further undermine
the political process of checks and balances.

Imagine what some insiders might do when their livelihood depends on this
administration staying in power?

Hayden's appointment to CIA will be used to root out decent in that organization.

Hopefully, a few patriots will stand their ground and turn the tables.

[mactastic]

Bush says U.S. not 'trolling through personal lives'

How much you wanna bet they've got records of every single call made by
every single opposing politician or anyone they consider a political threat.

I'm seeing more and more that Bush and Co are doing this as a means
to control their own political terrorism.

One congressman makes too much trouble and they reveal all the calls he made to his escort service or worse.

So in effect Bush did not lie.

They are not keeping track of ordinary citizens.

They are keeping tabs on anyone who threatens their political power.

Who, you ask?

Ah that's classified as a matter of national security.
Exactly. How easy would it be to identify leakers of information that is damaging to you if you have records of every phone call made?

Think Rove was tempted to dip into that database to see who Kerry was talking to during the run-up to the '04 elections?

Encrypting email is probably a good start, but it will probably just put a flag on your file with a note to look a little closer at you.

And yes - this is a Rove-issue. Polling shows that people just aren't that concerned about this kind of thing. No idea why people are willing to trade liberty for security in this fashion, but that's the truth of it. So it probably won't hurt Bush as bad as it could, and Rove will seek to use this issue to paint Democrats as weak on terrorism. The strategy this time around will be to drive down enough support for the Democrats to allow the GOP to hang onto the Congress until '08. Anything that can be used to smear a Democrat will be flouted from the pixels of Drudge to the lips of FOX.

[3rdpath]

Is this the straw that will break the 30% floor?

according to today's Harris poll:

Bush's approval rate is down to 29%

[mactastic]

according to today's Harris poll:

Bush's approval rate is down to 29%
Yeah, I noted that in another thread. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2402746&postcount=22)

[solvs]

Yeah, I noted that in another thread. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2402746&postcount=22)
Bares repeating. A couple of times.