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View Full Version : PS3 - What Happened To Linux?


MacRumorUser
May 13, 2006, 03:54 PM
Last year we were told that Linux would be pre-installed and a variety of applications for basic video editing and such would be available. This was of course a year ago, when it was still speculated that the HDD would be an addon.

This year however at E3 Sony remain very quiet on Linux and have yet to find a trace of it mentioned anywhere at E3 on all the major sites.

Has Linux dissapeared? will it just be the OS powering the Sony dashboard? Are Sony removing yet another feature from the Ps3?

LINUX - Where are't thou ?

greatdevourer
May 13, 2006, 04:16 PM
I'd've been more suprised if it were still there. Sony don't want another XBMC. They lose enough money as it is

Haoshiro
May 13, 2006, 04:45 PM
Well even if they had it I would expect it to be very crippled ala the PSP firmware.

But hey, why should we think it didn't go the way of Dual Gb Ethernet, etc etc?

MacRumorUser
May 13, 2006, 04:48 PM
Well even if they had it I would expect it to be very crippled ala the PSP firmware.

But hey, why should we think it didn't go the way of Dual Gb Ethernet, etc etc?

Well that is what I think, just another Sony advantage ;)

Dagless
May 14, 2006, 09:53 AM
Well even if they had it I would expect it to be very crippled ala the PSP firmware.

But hey, why should we think it didn't go the way of Dual Gb Ethernet, etc etc?

Wasn't it triple gigabit ethernet that went byebye?

I think Linux will be there but it will be crippled. It's the whole piracy issue again. Sony just sold a console at a huge loss and you expect to play freeware Linux games on it? good luck.

XNine
May 14, 2006, 01:28 PM
Well even if they had it I would expect it to be very crippled ala the PSP firmware.

But hey, why should we think it didn't go the way of Dual Gb Ethernet, etc etc?

Who the **** needs Dual ethernet? Who? On one machine no less?! That's why it's called a ROUTER. Buy one.

I'd like to know if Linux is still available as well.

edit:
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-cell/?ca=dgr-lnxw09SpufsCell
Take a look at that.

Abulia
May 15, 2006, 11:15 AM
What happened to Killzone for the P$3? Last year that's all people could talk about and this year I've not heard a peep about it. :confused:

Dagless
May 15, 2006, 11:41 AM
Well, apparently the PS3 uses a similar GUI to the PSP. So it looks like Linux isn't going to be the main backbone system we thought it was. hmm.

XNine
May 15, 2006, 12:09 PM
Well, apparently the PS3 uses a similar GUI to the PSP. So it looks like Linux isn't going to be the main backbone system we thought it was. hmm.

GUI is just a GUI, linux COULD be the backbone.

Xeem
May 15, 2006, 02:50 PM
Unfortunately, it does appear that PS3 Linux may have gone to the same place that Sony sent dual gigabit ethernet, controllers with vibration, and affordability.

clayj
May 15, 2006, 03:47 PM
Linux gone... triple Ethernet gone... dual HDMI support gone (and ALL HDMI support gone from some SKUs)... memory card slots gone from some SKUs... WiFi gone from some SKUs... wireless controllers gone from some SKUs... vibration gone from controllers...

Geez, it'd be easier to list what's left in the PS3 than to list what was removed.

MacRumorUser
May 15, 2006, 03:50 PM
Linux gone... triple Ethernet gone... dual HDMI support gone (and ALL HDMI support gone from some SKUs)... memory card slots gone from some SKUs... WiFi gone from some SKUs... wireless controllers gone from some SKUs... vibration gone from controllers...

Geez, it'd be easier to list what's left in the PS3 than to list what was removed.

Well feck all in the Core model :D

ReanimationLP
May 15, 2006, 04:59 PM
Linux is gone because I ate it.

It tasted good.

:D

Dagless
May 15, 2006, 05:08 PM
Linux gone... triple Ethernet gone... dual HDMI support gone (and ALL HDMI support gone from some SKUs)... memory card slots gone from some SKUs... WiFi gone from some SKUs... wireless controllers gone from some SKUs... vibration gone from controllers...

Geez, it'd be easier to list what's left in the PS3 than to list what was removed.

A Cell chip and a convenient portable grill, seemingly. Just cover those vents.

GFLPraxis
May 17, 2006, 01:08 PM
Linux is still on.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060516-6846.html

Penguin Power on PS3? Probably.

5/16/2006 2:30:04 PM, by Jeremy Reimer

Ever since the announcement of the PlayStation 3's November release date, the Internet has been abuzz with discussion over the promise of Ken Kutaragi's brief mention of Linux. However, as Kutaragi has been known to make statements that were subsequently changed (for example, in 2005, he said that the hard drive for the PS3 would be optional) many people held off on assuming that their shiny new PS3 would come prepackaged with Penguin goodness.

Now, more recent comments at E3 by SCE network system development manager Izumi Kawanishi suggest that each new PS3 will likely come not only with Linux preinstalled, but also a compiler and a set of development tools. If this is true, the PS3 might become the system of choice for Linux enthusiasts and homebrew developers.

But how much of the PS3's architecture will be accessible under Linux? Certainly anything to do with Digital Rights Management (DRM) or playing burned copies of protected games will be locked out. It's also possible that Sony will reserve some of the more advanced graphics and sound features for the big-name PS3 game developers. However, this doesn't mean that Linux on the PS3 will be no different from running it on any generic PC or Macintosh. IBM has made sure of that:

"Unlike existing SMP systems or multicore implementations of other processors, on the Cell, only the general purpose PowerPC core is able to run a generic operating system, while the SPUs are specialized to run computational tasks. Porting Linux to run on Cell's PowerPC core is a relatively easy task because of the similarities to existing platforms like IBM pSeries or Apple Power Macintosh, but this does not give access to the enormous computing power of the SPUs.

Only the kernel can directly communicate with an SPU and therefore needs to abstract the hardware interface into system calls or device drivers. The most important functions of the user interface include loading a program binary into an SPU, transferring memory between an SPU program and a Linux userspace application, and synchronizing the execution."

The IBM port of Linux allows developers to access the Synergistic Processing Units (SPU, sometimes referred to as SPEs in Sony documentation) using their unique instruction set, by creating a virtual file system that can be accessed by userland applications. From a shell prompt, you can even mount the SPU and do a directory listing with ls, with various elements (the small amount of local memory, registers, and the "mailbox" where messages are sent to and from the SPU) appearing as files. These files can then be accessed with standard Unix system calls. This file system is known as "SPUFS" or "Synergistic Processing Unit File System."

The documentation states that the Cell port of Linux was written by a joint team of Sony, IBM, and Toshiba employees based in Austin, Texas, and that the team hopes to include their work in the upcoming 2.6.13 Linux kernel release. Will we see Beowulf clusters of PS3s next? Only the Penguins know for sure.

Gah, I wish the PS3 cost less. I've been coding on Linux in my CS classes, it would be extremely fun to play around with. But I can't rationalize paying for Blu-ray without a HDTV or even EDTV, and I can't rationalize $499 without online capabilities (none of my TVs are near ethernet ports, I REQUIRE WiFi), and I can't rationalize $599 for a games system when there are very few titles I see I want so far and I could build a Linux PC for much less.

I really do like the system, it's just that the price and games are so disappointing so far...Kingdom Hearts 3 might change that of course :)

GFLPraxis
May 19, 2006, 11:33 AM
I'm going to bump this because nobody saw my above post.

clayj
May 19, 2006, 11:35 AM
I'm going to bump this because nobody saw my above post.We saw it.

It's just that no one really cares about playing with Linux on a game console, except for a teeny, tiny fraction of gearheads out there. ;)

saunders45
May 19, 2006, 03:31 PM
Exactly.

harveypooka
May 19, 2006, 05:32 PM
What happened to Killzone for the P$3? Last year that's all people could talk about and this year I've not heard a peep about it. :confused:

Killzone is still coming out, but that movie of it wasn't realtime footage. I read that it was and was blown away, but yeah, just pretty pre rendered scenes. Dang.

savar
May 19, 2006, 05:54 PM
We saw it.

It's just that no one really cares about playing with Linux on a game console, except for a teeny, tiny fraction of gearheads out there. ;)

The Cell architecture is different enough from most computers that i could see a lot of developers buying a PS3 just to toy around with writing applications to use all those processing units.

It's also a good way for Sony to get a wider audience writing code for PS3, which could eventually open up new applications and new markets for them.

MacRumorUser
May 19, 2006, 06:04 PM
The Cell architecture is different enough from most computers that i could see a lot of developers buying a PS3 just to toy around with writing applications to use all those processing units.

It's also a good way for Sony to get a wider audience writing code for PS3, which could eventually open up new applications and new markets for them.

Not true. The development SDK for the PS3 is VERY VERY expensive. That is what has put people off. Smaller developers are going to shy away, though they may go the way of xbox live arcade.

GFLPraxis
May 19, 2006, 06:08 PM
If you think that Linux is trivial, you haven't thought it through.

ANY multimedia functionality Sony does not put in, you can run via Linux. Streaming video, PVR functionality, etc.

Dagless
May 19, 2006, 07:07 PM
Doesn't PVR require some form of TV receiver?

harveypooka
May 19, 2006, 07:12 PM
The Cell architecture is different enough from most computers that i could see a lot of developers buying a PS3 just to toy around with writing applications to use all those processing units.

It's also a good way for Sony to get a wider audience writing code for PS3, which could eventually open up new applications and new markets for them.

Why would developers develop if no one's buying them?! Haha, we're going to have to wait and see...

GFLPraxis
May 19, 2006, 07:56 PM
Doesn't PVR require some form of TV receiver?

Yup, and there are Linux drivers for USB ones as well as Linux PVR software. :)

Haoshiro
May 19, 2006, 08:24 PM
If you think that Linux is trivial, you haven't thought it through.

ANY multimedia functionality Sony does not put in, you can run via Linux. Streaming video, PVR functionality, etc.

I think what your missing, or assuming, is that you are actually going to get a standard linux in the PS3. Sure someone at E3 is talking about it but it is 6 months until release and Sony has a history of over-promising and under-delivering.

It might give you direct access to the OS, it also might be a rather stripped and protected version of Linux. You might be able to do a lot of things with it but we won't actually know until it's finished. Because it might also need software to be modified and recompiled - and there may or may not be be many freelance developers that do this.

It's just really up in the air, just because a system runs Linux means very little... it could be only running off a linux kernel and not have shell access and a limited, restrictive, GUI.

Without the system being out and without official word on all the details and possibilities it's really much to early to get excited about. Give direct raw access to the OS could pose a lot of security issues Sony doesn't want to have to deal with.

MacRumorUser
May 20, 2006, 04:02 AM
The 360 with 512 can dynamically alter the amount of ram to gpu, cpu etc...

How does sony's implementation of memory affect Linux. The GPU is allocated half of the 512, so really you've got a linux computer with 256mb ram?

That's not great really is it.....

I mean we wont be able to install Linux versions of Doom 3...

I also think it will probably be crippled in some way. We all know there are various GUI's for linux and it will probably be a Sony developed one and yes there maybe media streaming video etc, but in all honesty could they not have just implemented that into the Sony dash???

I think people expecting an interface where they can program and create homebrew, or SDK tools are fooling themselves big time. Sony wont allow any of that, after all they sell the PS3 SDK for huge amounts of money, why would they offer any of that in a ps3 standard?

Dont expect anything, and you wont be dissapointed....

Dagless
May 20, 2006, 06:32 AM
...Dont expect anything, and you wont be dissapointed....

This is what really confuses me. Why would Sony who are going to lose soooo much money on the PS3 console, who will make money back through games alone expect people to fork out 60 for a game when they could play homebrew and freeware games on Linux?

The whole theory just does not make sense. It's a great idea - stick Linux on a next gen system. But it's so idiotic I'm surprised anyone with half a brain came up with it.

unless... it is severely crippled. well 256mb ram already is. but there are huge problems heading the way of PS3 and Linux. It does not add up.

MacRumorUser
May 20, 2006, 06:39 AM
but there are huge problems heading the way of PS3 and Linux. It does not add up.

It's like the southpark 'chewbacca' defense. It just doesnt make sense...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Defense

Johnny Cochran: I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Gerald Broflovski: Dammit!
Chef: What?
Gerald: He's using the Chewbacca Defense!
Cochran: Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

greatdevourer
May 20, 2006, 06:57 AM
I also think it will probably be crippled in some way. We all know there are various GUI's for linux and it will probably be a Sony developed one and yes there maybe media streaming video etc, but in all honesty could they not have just implemented that into the Sony dash??? I wouldn't be suprised if the fabled Linux is just the kernel (like NT on the XBoxes)

saunders45
May 21, 2006, 01:27 AM
It doesn't matter if Linux is supposedly going to be on there. Because that ain't gonna sell the system. Think about the demographic that owns a PS2. Not exactly the Linux "type." I just think some people are putting way to much faith into a fully functional OS. Sony's already cutting costs and corners. They ain't gonna waste time screwing around with Linux just to make 50 people happy. Sorry man, ain't gonna happen if they have any bit of business sense at all.

MacRumorUser
May 21, 2006, 03:53 AM
It doesn't matter if Linux is supposedly going to be on there. Because that ain't gonna sell the system. Think about the demographic that owns a PS2.

You could say the same for BluRay, WiFi and 1080p.....

How many bedrooms connected to 14" CRT TV's is this going to be connected to?

harveypooka
May 21, 2006, 05:50 AM
They ain't gonna waste time screwing around with Linux just to make 50 people happy. Sorry man, ain't gonna happen if they have any bit of business sense at all.

I think people are a bit miffed because Sony actually said this would happen. People haven't plucked this idea out of thin air, Sony is messing with them!!!

Dagless
May 21, 2006, 06:07 AM
You could say the same for BluRay, WiFi and 1080p.....

How many bedrooms connected to 14" CRT TV's is this going to be connected to?


ooh ohhhhh!!!! I know this!

Is it... 7?

harveypooka
May 21, 2006, 06:12 AM
ooh ohhhhh!!!! I know this!

Is it... 7?

I think you'll find it's actually 8. Recent scientific studies have proven this number to be correct. Mwa!

Uma888
May 21, 2006, 05:15 PM
We saw it.

It's just that no one really cares about playing with Linux on a game console, except for a teeny, tiny fraction of gearheads out there. ;)


Hopefully this will kick start linux in home use...............:rolleyes: