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Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 04:25 PM
This is something someone showed me 3 years ago, i solved it a year ago, and decided if anyone here can solve it. IT IS HARD. it took me two years.
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/1499/nighteatersriddle5xh.jpg
(i will submit a better pic soon)

Ok here is the rules you must draw the shape above, while following the conditions listed below
You may use only one writing insturement
You may not alter anyline you have drawn
You may not draw over lines
You may not lift up your writing instruement
You may not alter your drawing space (ie, folding or cutting paper)


Also inorder to prove you completed the task, u must submit a "comic strip" of each step

Jaffa Cake
May 15, 2006, 04:28 PM
I've been trying to beat this one for the past 16 years. I suspect that I may have been told the rules wrong... :o

Abulia
May 15, 2006, 04:33 PM
"Supper hard?" What, we can only do this just before dinner? :)

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 04:41 PM
"Supper hard?" What, we can only do this just before dinner? :)
Lol, i have the answer, and i bet u can't, i have not descided whether or not i willpost the answer

jared_kipe
May 15, 2006, 04:48 PM
Umm according to Euler (the guy who game up with e^ir=cos(r)-isin(r) ) any graph with more than two odd path nodes cannot be completed in an Euler walk, which is what I believe you are describing. Since your graph has 4 odd nodes, it is not possible.

EDIT: It is super hard, as in impossible without changing the rules.

Jaffa Cake
May 15, 2006, 04:49 PM
Lol, i have the answer, and i bet u can't, i have not descided whether or not i willpost the answer16, I repeat, 16 bloody years. You have to... :mad:

I should point out (before anyone starts worrying about my sanity) I've not been trying for 16 years solid. I was shown the puzzle in my early teens and couldn't crack it then – but I remember it every six months or so, and have another stab. Mind, the version of the puzzle I was shown had curved bits instead of the pointy bits – I can't help but think the answer lies in those...

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 04:56 PM
"Supper hard?" What, we can only do this just before dinner? :)

It means only people with food-related nicknames are allowed to try this.

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 04:57 PM
16, I repeat, 16 bloody years. You have to... :mad:

I should point out (before anyone starts worrying about my sanity) I've not been trying for 16 years solid. I was shown the puzzle in my early teens and couldn't crack it then – but I remember it every six months or so, and have another stab. Mind, the version of the puzzle I was shown had curved bits instead of the pointy bits – I can't help but think the answer lies in those...
there is a logical answer, however, i will give u a hint, the number of lines u see is not the number of lines. how man lines are there?

Abulia
May 15, 2006, 04:58 PM
Lol, i have the answer, and i bet u can't, i have not descided whether or not i willpost the answer
Then I await for you to bless us with your genius (and hopefully some proper English, too).

Compatiblepoker
May 15, 2006, 04:59 PM
Umm according to Euler (the guy who game up with e^ir=cos(r)-isin(r) ) any graph with more than two odd path nodes cannot be completed in an Euler walk, which is what I believe you are describing. Since your graph has 4 odd nodes, it is not possible.

EDIT: It is super hard, as in impossible without changing the rules.

So is it possible or not? I dont want to spend 16 years on something if its not.:)

jared_kipe
May 15, 2006, 05:04 PM
So is it possible or not? I dont want to spend 16 years on something if its not.:)

It is not possible. Is simple to imagine, if you imagine a node with an odd number of lines coming out of it, then you have to return more than you can leave. Which means only diagrams like this with EXACTLY 2 odd nodes will one, such that you start on one, and end on the other.

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 05:04 PM
So is it possible or not? I dont want to spend 16 years on something if its not.:)

it is possible, and dont make fun of my grammer, imgot a 5.5 on my FCAT, its just i dorrnt profread when i type,,,now if anyone plays diablo II i may trade the answer for items in the gaame, or i my give hints, also my clue is very in sightfull.

It is not possible. Is simple to imagine, if you imagine a node with an odd number of lines coming out of it, then you have to return more than you can leave. Which means only diagrams like this with EXACTLY 2 odd nodes will one, such that you start on one, and end on the other.

but there is an even number, learn to count,

but there is an even number, learn to count,
i will be in the Aim Chat room: TheRiddle

clayj
May 15, 2006, 05:10 PM
but there is an even number, learn to count,Erm, the point is that if there are MORE than two odd nodes, it's impossible to walk it as you've asked. Your drawing has FOUR nodes with 5 lines exiting each of them.

its just i dorrnt profread when i typeObviously.

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 05:11 PM
Erm, the point is that if there are MORE than two odd nodes, it's impossible to walk it as you've asked. Your drawing has FOUR nodes with 5 lines exiting each of them.
Hmm, one of us can't count....and i don't think it is me.....

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:11 PM
It doesn't seem possible without a cheat. There are four nodes that have 5 connected lines (and one node with 4 lines). For each node, every time you take a path "into" the node, there must be a path "out" of the node. The only exceptions are the starting and ending node, which can each have an extra path. Therefore there can only be two nodes with an odd number of lines connected.

If that's the case, don't bother trying to solve the puzzle using the obvious rules-- look for a loophole.

****
Apparently other people caught onto this before I posted. :-)

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 05:12 PM
It doesn't seem possible without a cheat. There are four nodes that have 5 connected lines (and one node with 4 lines). For each node, every time you take a path "into" the node, there must be a path "out" of the node. The only exceptions are the starting and ending node, which can each have an extra path. Therefore there can only be two nodes with an odd number of lines connected.

If that's the case, don't bother trying to solve the puzzle using the obvious rules-- look for a loophole.
True, it is a loophole....lol that is VERY good wording

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:15 PM
there is a logical answer, however, i will give u a hint, the number of lines u see is not the number of lines. how man lines are there?

12

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 05:15 PM
12
wrong!
I feel lonely in this Aim Chat: TheRiddle
wont anyone come>

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:16 PM
Hmm, one of us can't count....and i don't think it is me.....

Why not; you can't type! Lol

jared_kipe
May 15, 2006, 05:18 PM
True, it is a loophole....lol that is VERY good wording
Yes it is, it is my explanation but glossed up for SOMEONE who is very rude and doesn't act like he is older than 6.

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 05:18 PM
wrong!
I feel lonely in this Aim Chat: TheRiddle
wont anyone come>
i feel compelled to tell u that the middle lines can't cross over each other as that will be violating the commandmentss.......
So let me tell u that the shape musty be ddrawn with out going over anylines
That will point u in thhe right direction

Jaffa Cake
May 15, 2006, 05:19 PM
12I'm thinking 16.

But then I'm the last person you need to be listening to on this one. ;)

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 05:20 PM
Why not; you can't type! Lol
i like that, umm no, i am just to lazy to correct my self. I have to leave my computer, However i will be back at 9pm to check the thread, my final hint is
><

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 05:21 PM
I'm thinking 16.

But then I'm the last person you need to be listening to on this one. ;)
Congrads u have ascceneded to the second relization, however your number is still WRONG!

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:21 PM
wrong!
I feel lonely in this Aim Chat: TheRiddle
wont anyone come>

Because your problem is boring.

If it's not 12 lines you are playing with words. And then, who cares?

clayj
May 15, 2006, 05:21 PM
my final hint is
><Sorry, but that's just dumb. If the middle lines can't cross each other, then OBVIOUSLY the cross in the middle is the result of two right angles touching each other.

Or two of the opposing lines (say, 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock) are the endpoints of the walk, while the 3-9 line passes through the center. But that's very unlikely, since there are STILL 4 odd nodes that must be dealt with.

Abulia
May 15, 2006, 05:24 PM
Yes it is, it is my explanation but glossed up for SOMEONE who is very rude and doesn't act like he is older than 6.Man, that's more credit than I was giving him.

And as jared and others have stated, Euler's walk (aka The Bridges of Königsberg) proves that if there are more than two nodes with an odd number of paths, then it can't be done.

jared_kipe
May 15, 2006, 05:25 PM
Awesome, a loophole. Who would have thought.

You, "If I put you in a room alone and there is lots of bamboo around how does all the bamboo disappear"
Me, "it doesn't"
You, "Pandas eat bamboo, ha haha"

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:25 PM
Man, that's more credit than I was giving him.

And as jared and others have stated, Euler's walk (aka The Bridges of Königsberg) proves that if there are more than two nodes with an odd number of paths, then it can't be done.

I think he is operating on another plane of thought which doesn't involve topology. More like kindergarten art time.

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:30 PM
i like that, umm no, i am just to lazy to correct my self. I have to leave my computer, However i will be back at 9pm to check the thread, my final hint is
><

I've got it!

>< is what your eyes look like when you stare at a drawing for two years.

jared_kipe
May 15, 2006, 05:31 PM
I think he is operating on another plane of thought which doesn't involve topology. More like kindergarten art time.
Euler's walk applies for all topology actually. You can make your line go into higher dimensional space, as long as you only keep track of the number of times a node is intersected.

Jaffa Cake
May 15, 2006, 05:31 PM
And as jared and others have stated, Euler's walk (aka The Bridges of Königsberg) proves that if there are more than two nodes with an odd number of paths, then it can't be done.I don't have a clue about bridges or nodes or what-have-you (I went to art college, after all) but I'm taking your word for it. I'm of the suspicion that if there is a solution then it's a sneaky, cheaty way that's not in the spirit of such puzzles.

Still, at least I've 'ascceneded to the second relization' so I've achieved that out of this, if nothing else. :p

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:36 PM
Euler's walk applies for all topology actually. You can make your line go into higher dimensional space, as long as you only keep track of the number of times a node is intersected.

How about this-- it's a 2 dimensional projection of a 3-dimensional drawing. And there are actually 2 more lines that are being obscured.

jared_kipe
May 15, 2006, 05:40 PM
How about this-- it's a 2 dimensional projection of a 3-dimensional drawing. And there are actually 2 more lines that are being obscured.
Only one more line is necessary, to turn 2 of the odd nodes into 2 even nodes. Which I'm sure is what he's going for, but its a simple answer so I hope he didn't take too long to come up with it.

EDIT: You could also say that there is another line that is obscured by his blocky ass drawing. The point is a puzzle that obscures the puzzle itself from you doesn't have too much meaning.

Patmian212
May 15, 2006, 05:42 PM
Can someone please post how to solve this. . . Im really curious now

Jaffa Cake
May 15, 2006, 05:44 PM
Can someone please post how to solve this. . . Im really curious nowJust tell yourself it's impossible – you'll save yourself years of heartache. :D

Abulia
May 15, 2006, 05:44 PM
Only one more line is necessary, to turn 2 of the odd nodes into 2 even nodes. Which I'm sure is what he's going for, but its a simple answer so I hope he didn't take too long to come up with it.Only two years, apparently. :o

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:45 PM
I don't have a clue about bridges or nodes or what-have-you (I went to art college, after all)

A node is just an intersection of lines (or "streets" if you will). Every time you enter by one street, you need to leave by another. If you don't want to repeat streets, that means almost every node has pairs of streets going in and out; or in other words, an even number of lines connected to it.

The exceptions are the starting and ending point, which get an extra line, since for the start you leave (but don't enter) and for the end you enter (but don't leave). So you can have up to two intersections with an odd number of streets connected. If the start and end are the same place, you would have zero "odd nodes".

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:47 PM
Only one more line is necessary, to turn 2 of the odd nodes into 2 even nodes. Which I'm sure is what he's going for, but its a simple answer so I hope he didn't take too long to come up with it.

Good point.

EDIT: You could also say that there is another line that is obscured by his blocky ass drawing. The point is a puzzle that obscures the puzzle itself from you doesn't have too much meaning.

I think N-1 of us agree with that. :p

takao
May 15, 2006, 05:47 PM
and here the links to wikipedia
;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Bridges_of_Königsberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eulerian_path
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory

graph theory so far my favourite math course ;)

Abulia
May 15, 2006, 05:50 PM
and here the links to wikipedia
;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Bridges_of_Königsberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eulerian_path
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory
You just made Nighteater's brain explode. :D

Gasu E.
May 15, 2006, 05:51 PM
Only two years, apparently. :o

He must have been seven when he started.

Jaffa Cake
May 15, 2006, 06:00 PM
~talk of nodes~That's a lot clearer. Thanks for explaining it in language even I can understand! :) ;)

jared_kipe
May 15, 2006, 06:03 PM
Ok fine, I will put this to rest. His original diagram makes it IMPOSSIBLE to do. But the way he presumes we should do it is that his diagram has one line that is double, you can think of this line as coming out of the paper or something, but I put it in my diagram as being beside one of the supposed odd node lines.

Spanky Deluxe
May 15, 2006, 06:10 PM
The puzzle is unsolveable, look here and scroll down: http://www.puzzles.com/PuzzleHelp/PuzzleHelpItems49_60.htm

Unfortunately, we have to say that this classic puzzle pattern can't be solved. To see more examples of unicursal and non-unicursal patterns, to learn more about why some patterns can be drawn without lifting your pencil from the paper, while other can't, explore our Unicursal Marathon page with a set of mini challenges which were proposed as our Mini-Contest 10, and solutions and comments to them at the Solution page. The pattern you're asking about is, in fact, the same as Pattern 4 in our set of mini-patterns.

So, Nighteater537, since there clearly is no accurate solution, you were lying when you said you knew the answer and were probably trying to get the supposed answer from someone on here to show how 'clever' you are in the real world. Its impossible.

Jaffa Cake
May 15, 2006, 06:15 PM
Brilliant! Now I can spend my life engaging in more worthwhile pursuits. :)

MacRumorsReader
May 15, 2006, 06:30 PM
Brilliant! Now I can spend my life engaging in more worthwhile pursuits. :)
Exactly!

So check this out... A south bound train leaves Chicago at 80mph..... ;)

clayj
May 15, 2006, 06:35 PM
A south bound train leaves Chicago at 80mph..... ;)No, it doesn't.

;)

G5Unit
May 15, 2006, 06:39 PM
I got it in 2 trys...

G5Unit
May 15, 2006, 06:40 PM
OH crap nvm.

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 06:55 PM
Ok fine, I will put this to rest. His original diagram makes it IMPOSSIBLE to do. But the way he presumes we should do it is that his diagram has one line that is double, you can think of this line as coming out of the paper or something, but I put it in my diagram as being beside one of the supposed odd node lines.
so close, but here is the true answer, (i lost my original comic strip so i will have to make it now :D , but it should be up in 15 mins

savar
May 15, 2006, 07:03 PM
and here the links to wikipedia
;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Bridges_of_Königsberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eulerian_path
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory

graph theory so far my favourite math course ;)

Graph theory is fascinating...I wrote my economics thesis on it.

jsw
May 15, 2006, 07:11 PM
I'd do it with a dot matrix or inkjet printer.

One writing instrument.
No alteration.
No lines drawn over.
No lifting (it stays a constant distance).
No alteration of drawing space.


Silly mathematicians. Let an engineer do it.... ;)

...

Ok here is the rules you must draw the shape above, while following the conditions listed below
You may use only one writing insturement
You may not alter anyline you have drawn
You may not draw over lines
You may not lift up your writing instruement
You may not alter your drawing space (ie, folding or cutting paper)
...

jared_kipe
May 15, 2006, 07:16 PM
I'd do it with a dot matrix or inkjet printer.

One writing instrument.
No alteration.
No lines drawn over.
No lifting (it stays a constant distance).
No alteration of drawing space.


Silly mathematicians. Let an engineer do it.... ;)
Yes interesting approach, much better than what I can only assume he is doing right now.

savar
May 15, 2006, 07:56 PM
Yes interesting approach, much better than what I can only assume he is doing right now.

Well its been quite more than 15 minutes by now. Maybe he's too busy doing his social studies homework to post the solution.

WildCowboy
May 15, 2006, 08:00 PM
Well its been quite more than 15 minutes by now. Maybe he's too busy doing his social studies homework to post the solution.

Maybe he just realized he can't do it...

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 08:11 PM
Maybe he just realized he can't do it...
ok, it toook longer then expected, but here is a very ROUGH diagram, it is not even, nor is it perfect, yet the concept is solid
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/2251/anser7ef.jpg
Owned?:cool:

jsw
May 15, 2006, 08:14 PM
You shouldn't have to retrace more than two segments - your approach is too complex.

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 08:16 PM
You shouldn't have to retrace more than two segments - your approach is too complex.
u have to, because u can not shrink and then widen the width, with out changing insturments.
and to the person who said printer, i said DRAW, not print, nice try

jsw
May 15, 2006, 08:29 PM
u have to, because u can not shrink and then widen the width, with out changing insturments.
and to the person who said printer, i said DRAW, not print, nice try
(1) The definition of "draw" does not preclude printers. Be more explicit.

(2) Of course you can reduce or widen lines. You assume a round drawing tip. Even if you exclude printers - and you'll need to tighten up your rules - you don't exclude non-radially-symetric drawing tips.

Of course, you also don't exclude lowering the drawing surface while leaving the drawing instrument intact, which would also solve the problem without violating the rules.

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 08:30 PM
(1) The definition of "draw" does not preclude printers. Be more explicit.

(2) Of course you can reduce or widen lines. You assume a round drawing tip. Even if you exclude printers - and you'll need to tighten up your rules - you don't exclude non-radially-symetric drawing tips.
fine, there r multiple solutions, anyways anyother comments

balamw
May 15, 2006, 08:34 PM
Sorry, but drawing two line segments side-by side each half as wide as the final line completely violates the spirit of "No lines drawn over." This is what jsw rephrased as "no retracing." The rules state that each path between nodes must be traversed once and only once. Face it, it's mathematically impossible to follow the rules and solve this problem.

Whoever gave you the problem was trying to keep you busy. Like the riddle JD uses on the Janitor in Scrubs: "Two coins add up to thirty cents and one of them is not a nickel." And no, the answer isn't: "a penny and a 1972 dime with a Roosevelt imperfection, today worth exactly twenty nine cents" :rolleyes:

B

Nighteater537
May 15, 2006, 08:34 PM
Sorry, but drawing two line segments side-by side each half as wide as the final line completely violates the spirit of "No lines drawn over." This is what jsw rephrased as "no retracing." The rules state that each path between nodes must be traversed once and only once. Face it, it's mathematically impossible to follow the rules and solve this problem.

Whoever gave you the problem was trying to keep you busy. Like the riddle JD uses on the Janitor in Scrubs: "Two coins add up to thirty cents and one of them is not a nickel." And no, the answer isn't: "a penny and a 1972 dime with a Roosevelt imperfection, today worth exactly twenty nine cents" :rolleyes:

B
umm the answer to that is a nickle and a quarter ( the quarter is the one not a nickle)

also i said draw the diagram....and the diagram was originally drawn by the methodd i showed before, so...

jsw
May 15, 2006, 08:52 PM
I think we're done here.... No comments on the validity or lack thereof of the solution are necessary, as no one will be convinced either way.