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View Full Version : [360] Nice price reduction for PS3 launch


Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 09:44 AM
This is a quote taken from an interview with Peter Moore (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/05/12/the-engadget-and-joystiq-interview-microsofts-peter-moore/) on Joystiq:

I'm asking you though.

You're asking me to tell you I'm going to drop the price? We had a price drop on Monday when Sony announced their price. We obviously don't talk about price drops, and I can't think of any good reason right now that we would drop the price even further from the delta between what we're offering and what our competitor's are currently offering.

This of course isn't definitive until the PS3 actually launches, but a very good indicator not to hold your breath if that's what you are waiting for before buying a 360!

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 10:58 AM
This is a quote taken from an interview with Peter Moore (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/05/12/the-engadget-and-joystiq-interview-microsofts-peter-moore/) on Joystiq:



This of course isn't definitive until the PS3 actually launches, but a very good indicator not to hold your breath if that's what you are waiting for before buying a 360!

Sigh. If you are waiting for a price drop, I can promise you that you WILL GET ONE EVENTUALLY. The 360 isn't going to be $299/399 forever. It might not be this year, but they will lower the price eventually.

If you think that $300 or $400 is too much for a game machine this isn't going to change that. All it does is move your timeframe out a bit longer, and make you look at other systems (Wii, Xbox1, whatever).

I still believe that they will either launch the HDDVD drive add on at a lower than expected price point, or upgrade the bundles without changing the prices. The PS3 is more expensive, but offers more at each price point than the 360 does. Lowend you get a HDD and [some form of] BluRay playback. Highend you get complete BluRay and a larger HDD. I can see the Core getting the HDD and the premium getting the HDDVD drive bundled in for the same price, if the HDDVD drive and HDD add-on prices are kept competitive.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 11:14 AM
Well sure, a price reduction at some point is inevitable.

I posted this because many people (not just you) have had the idea/thought/assumption that the price reduction would happen at the time of PS3 launch while this seems to make it pretty clear there won't be.

I wouldn't be surprised of MS was going to reduce the price but the fortunate high price of PS3 made them change their minds, heh.

I'm not ready to adopt any HD format and probably won't until the next next-gen, personally.

JRM PowerPod
May 16, 2006, 11:21 AM
As far as i'm concerned by the looks of things i'd pay 1000 bucks for the PS3 and the Xbox would have to be 200 for me to consider it. No Gran Turismo. nothing can take that game away from me

Dagless
May 16, 2006, 11:28 AM
As far as i'm concerned by the looks of things i'd pay 1000 bucks for the PS3 and the Xbox would have to be 200 for me to consider it. No Gran Turismo. nothing can take that game away from me

Didn't Microsoft get some racing game that was better than GT? better graphics, more tracks, even car licences GT couldn't get? I forget the name. But from what I heard it urinated all over GT.


My brother is waiting for this price drop too. I might get my 360 about then.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 11:31 AM
jimmi, you are thinking of Forza Motorsport. But GT fans are dedicated, there could be a better racer out there but they would not care.

Same goes for many other games, Madden, etc.

DougTheImpaler
May 16, 2006, 11:36 AM
All the more reason for me to not wait. Things are looking good for the weekend. :D

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 11:42 AM
Didn't Microsoft get some racing game that was better than GT? better graphics, more tracks, even car licences GT couldn't get? I forget the name. But from what I heard it urinated all over GT.


My brother is waiting for this price drop too. I might get my 360 about then.

Forza or something maybe? Not really into racing games...

Anyways, I'm throwing my support (and dollars) behind HDDVD. Aside from the the (hopefully/presumably) lower price of the discs (due to lower manufacturing costs), the hope/promise that they will be dual layer with standard DVDs on the "backside" is enough for me. (Sony's talk of BR discs with iPod and PSP files on the disc does nothing for me... DVD = universal standard now, so I can lend the disc out, take it places, watch it in the bedroom w/o HDTV/HDDVD without havign to get a second copy).

Also, I've never counted on a price cut for MS this year. Someone else mentioned it and I was interested in the support for it. What I have been predicting, and hoping for, is a rebundling of products at the same pricepoints in order to get HDDVD drives out into more hands and to counter the "PS3 has HD movie player built in" argument, and also the "Core is the only system without HDD" argument.

$400 for the Premium w/ HDDVD would be a great value, and wouldn't really change the loss per console that much ($400 last year minus drop in production costs - cost of DVD drive + cost of HDDVD drive). Same goes for Core + 20gb HDD.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 12:08 PM
If that is true, that there can be a backwards-compatible DVD layer on HD-DVD discs, then that is definitely great news! I haven't heard of any such support but if it could and would be done then that is a definite benefit. I'd be willing to support the format then, since it has a much better chance of success.

I wouldn't get a player any time soon, but I'd still be in favor of the format.

DougTheImpaler
May 16, 2006, 12:11 PM
I'd have to have an HDTV first. lol

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 12:23 PM
If that is true, that there can be a backwards-compatible DVD layer on HD-DVD discs, then that is definitely great news! I haven't heard of any such support but if it could and would be done then that is a definite benefit. I'd be willing to support the format then, since it has a much better chance of success.

I wouldn't get a player any time soon, but I'd still be in favor of the format.

Assuming you are replying to the DVD/HDVD pressed onto opposite sides of the same disc... Yes, it's true that it is a technicaly possibility. The same machines (upgraded) are used to press HDDVDs as regular DVDs (unlike BR which needs a whole new fabrication system). Both DVD and HDDVD are double sided formats, and so they can both be made on the same press, and then glued together back to back.

It's unclear how much this will cost, and how many studios will take advantage of it, but there will be at least some out there. My guess is it will start of being a bit more than the HDDVD movies are, but slowly drop in price while they phase out regular DVDs. This way, those who have just a DVD player still will be buying discs that will work in the old player, and when they are ready to upgrade to HD will look at their collection, see a dozen HD titles already in it, and buy that format player.

That's the theory at least. Could work if they get the price right.

2nyRiggz
May 16, 2006, 12:41 PM
They won't drop the price...they already think they have an advantage over the PS3 by being cheaper.....the sony people will still buy...i dont think anybody will be changing their mind yet.

I have a 360 so the price drop doesn't concern me....drop the price of the wireless controller then we will talk.


Bless

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 12:48 PM
This is a quote taken from an interview with Peter Moore (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/05/12/the-engadget-and-joystiq-interview-microsofts-peter-moore/) on Joystiq:



This of course isn't definitive until the PS3 actually launches, but a very good indicator not to hold your breath if that's what you are waiting for before buying a 360!

I finally read the interview over lunch, and two of the things he talks about are the "added value" of BluRay and also "cost reduction every year".

To elaborate, he says that every year they will be reducing the cost to make the 360, duh. He also talks about the value BluRay adds to the PS3... is it $100, 200, 300? Then he goes on to make the comment you quoted.

To me this reinforces my theory that the prices won't change but the bundling will. They are lowering production costs, and are also taking into account the value the "enemy" is offering. They are prepared to offer a similar value, in terms of what the system can do, and are taking steps to include this value at current production costs vs. sale price.

My official prediction is in early November, the Core and Premium packages will be upgraded to:
Core - $299
20gb HDD
Wireless controller

Premium - $399
HDDVD drive

HDDVD add-on - $129

clayj
May 16, 2006, 12:52 PM
There will NOT be an HD-DVD drive inside the 360. Period. This would cause fragmentation of the 360 market as some developers might start developing HD-DVD-specific versions of their games (or eschewing DVD altogether).

But I can see where the HD sizes for the 360 will be increased to 80 GB or 100 GB, just to say "our HDs are bigger than Sony's HDs"... and I think the Core package will just be eliminated completely.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 12:58 PM
There will NOT be an HD-DVD drive inside the 360. Period. This would cause fragmentation of the 360 market as some developers might start developing HD-DVD-specific versions of their games (or eschewing DVD altogether).

But I can see where the HD sizes for the 360 will be increased to 80 GB or 100 GB, just to say "our HDs are bigger than Sony's HDs"... and I think the Core package will just be eliminated completely.

There's nothing to say they can't put the drive in the 360. Nothing at all. MS can simply say that you can't release that game if it's not on DVD, as HDDVD drives can read DVDs as well (there are two optical devices inside the current HDDVD drives - one "red" and one "blue" for DVD/HDDVD respectively). That's like saying that because the 360 can output HD that some developers will make games that ONLY work in HD, so people with SD TVs can't use them.

It's nonsense. MS dictates what the developers can and can't do, or they simply don't grant the game the approval it needs to be released (which is this case means they don't sign the executable, and the game won't launch).

Now, they may CHOOSE not to put the HDDVD drive into the 360 at first, but they will eventually, if it makes financial sense for them to do it. The Core will stick around, I think, but basically as the non-HDDVD version. It'll go away once they can get the Premium package + HDDVD out the door for $299, though. Then again, they may keep the core around to compete with the Wii at $199. Who knows.

Abulia
May 16, 2006, 01:00 PM
There will NOT be an HD-DVD drive inside the 360. Period. This would cause fragmentation of the 360 market as some developers might start developing HD-DVD-specific versions of their games (or eschewing DVD altogether).

But I can see where the HD sizes for the 360 will be increased to 80 GB or 100 GB, just to say "our HDs are bigger than Sony's HDs"... and I think the Core package will just be eliminated completely.Once again clayj and I are sharing our hive mind today and I agree completely. :)

All discussion on 360 price drops was really prior to E3 and the Sony's pricing announcement. With the pricing rift between the two consoles (the 'delta'), the reason to lower the 360 price is much less.

However, something will probably happen around November, be it a price drop, bundle, free game, etc with a 360 purchase just to get Microsoft some ink and steal some press time from the P$3. Something like the first run of the 360s -- like mine -- that came with the free multimedia remote control.

And the Core must die. Die! :D

MacRumorUser
May 16, 2006, 01:11 PM
Either way they arent going to announce a price drop 6 months before are they :rolleyes: and then have 6 months of stagnated sales :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

clayj
May 16, 2006, 01:12 PM
There's nothing to say they can't put the drive in the 360. Nothing at all. MS can simply say that you can't release that game if it's not on DVD, as HDDVD drives can read DVDs as well (there are two optical devices inside the current HDDVD drives - one "red" and one "blue" for DVD/HDDVD respectively). That's like saying that because the 360 can output HD that some developers will make games that ONLY work in HD, so people with SD TVs can't use them.

It's nonsense. MS dictates what the developers can and can't do, or they simply don't grant the game the approval it needs to be released (which is this case means they don't sign the executable, and the game won't launch).

Now, they may CHOOSE not to put the HDDVD drive into the 360 at first, but they will eventually, if it makes financial sense for them to do it. The Core will stick around, I think, but basically as the non-HDDVD version. It'll go away once they can get the Premium package + HDDVD out the door for $299, though. Then again, they may keep the core around to compete with the Wii at $199. Who knows.I agree that there's no TECHNICAL reason why Microsoft can't start equipping 360s with HD-DVD drives. But they won't do it for a few reasons:

1. Increased production costs...
2. ... which would translate into increased retail costs. (Or a slower ability to decrease costs. This applies to both #1 and #2.)
3. Not requiring customers to pay for technology they don't need (e.g., HD-DVD) allows Microsoft to maintain the moral high ground and slam Sony for doing that very thing (with Blu-Ray).
4. In case HD-DVD does lose the Format War, Microsoft will still be using the universal standard, DVD, and can easily shift to Blu-Ray.

Until one format or the other wins, it's a mistake for Microsoft *or* Sony to force customers to choose (and pay more for) a specific format. Keeping the HD-DVD add-on an add-on makes the most sense.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 01:13 PM
Once again clayj and I are sharing our hive mind today and I agree completely. :)

All discussion on 360 price drops was really prior to E3 and the Sony's pricing announcement. With the pricing rift between the two consoles (the 'delta'), the reason to lower the 360 price is much less.

However, something will probably happen around November, be it a price drop, bundle, free game, etc with a 360 purchase just to get Microsoft some ink and steal some press time from the P$3. Something like the first run of the 360s -- like mine -- that came with the free multimedia remote control.

And the Core must die. Die! :D

Again, I would really like to hear your theory about WHY MS couldn't have built in HDDVD drives? They read DVDs just fine, and either way they will have to require all games to be on DVD media; and they are in the position to REQUIRE it. Xbox games can't get released without MS approval. Period.

But, otherwise, I agree, about a week or two pre-PS3 release there will be something to get the 360 in the news and in peoples minds along with the PS3.

I agree that there's no TECHNICAL reason why Microsoft can't start equipping 360s with HD-DVD drives. But they won't do it for a few reasons:

1. Increased production costs...
2. ... which would translate into increased retail costs. (Or a slower ability to decrease costs. This applies to both #1 and #2.)
3. Not requiring customers to pay for technology they don't need (e.g., HD-DVD) allows Microsoft to maintain the moral high ground and slam Sony for doing that very thing (with Blu-Ray).
4. In case HD-DVD does lose the Format War, Microsoft will still be using the universal standard, DVD, and can easily shift to Blu-Ray.

Until one format or the other wins, it's a mistake for Microsoft *or* Sony to force customers to choose (and pay more for) a specific format. Keeping the HD-DVD add-on an add-on makes the most sense.
1. Which is why the Core system won't go anywhere.
2. They don't need to drop prices, as mentioned in the original quote. They are already significantly cheaper than Sony. They can add value and keep the price the same.
3. See #1.
4. MS isn't going to switch to BluRay even if it comes out the 'winner' with the 360. The 360 games will read just fine in an HDDVD drive. By the time one of the two formats comes out as a standard, the players will be cheap enough it won't matter for movies. If it was BluRay, they can chose to use it next time around or not.

The BluRay/HDDVD choice is going to be completely irrelevant in 2-3 years. There will be sub $100 players on the market by then. It only matters RIGHT NOW which one a game system has. It's not a mistake to foist one or the other on consumers early. For a lot of people the video format the game system of their choice has will determine what they end up supporting. MS needs to convince people that the 360 is the one they want, and with that they get HDDVD as well... that's how one or the other will come out on top.

Also, for the record, your first objection to the HDDVD has nothing to do with any of these points. I'm not saying MS WILL put the 360 in the system, but they certainly can, and probably should is all.

clayj
May 16, 2006, 01:27 PM
Actually, even if the Core system is kept, having to maintain two separate production lines for DVD 360s and HD-DVD 360s *will* cause a rise in production costs. Right now, the only difference in the box between a Core 360 and a Premium 360 is the color of the facia on the DVD drive they install. If you start having DVDs or HD-DVDs, you're really talking about having to maintain two completely different assembly lines.

Abulia
May 16, 2006, 01:36 PM
1. Which is why the Core system won't go anywhere.
2. They don't need to drop prices, as mentioned in the original quote. They are already significantly cheaper than Sony. They can add value and keep the price the same.

1. But now introduce a third SKU, the premium w/ a HD-DVD drive, clear out old premium inventory, the add-on SKU, AND the Core SKU that no one wants?
2. Problem here is that they're already losing money on the 360 on a per unit basis. Give away the razors to sell the blades. Adding HD-DVD only further increases production costs and defers the break-even point, only to benefit a handful of users who don't want HD-DVD, understand what its for, etc.

Name 1 multi-disc Xbox title for me. Now name 1 multi-disc PS2 title for me.

There's no reason to move to HD-DVD as a storage medium, MS has said this. Heck, I think even the developers have said this. DVD compression is good enough to provide them with all the space that they need. And *if* they had to ship a game on multiple discs the costs of DVD are so cheap that it's a non-issue.

Look at Oblivion, a game that was rumored at one point to be on SIX discs. Shipped for the 360 on one.

The Core may die (and I hope it does), or there could certainly be a HD-DVD "bundle," but the HD-DVD drive will never be built into the 360 nor a "value added extra" at no cost. MS has stated as much and, IMO, that's the best business strategy to take as well.

Also, I'd have to research this, but I don't think MS has any vested interest in HD-DVD the way that Sony does; they (MS) aren't in a position to 'gain' or 'lose' anything should a format win. I believe they've officially backed the HD-DVD format but, like Apple, have to be positioned to support whomever gets dominate marketshare (or both).

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 01:38 PM
Actually, even if the Core system is kept, having to maintain two separate production lines for DVD 360s and HD-DVD 360s *will* cause a rise in production costs. Right now, the only difference in the box between a Core 360 and a Premium 360 is the color of the facia on the DVD drive they install. If you start having DVDs or HD-DVDs, you're really talking about having to maintain two completely different assembly lines.

HDDVD drives are just IDE drives, same as the DVD drive in the 360 is now. The cost of stuffing in either generic brand IDE DVD drive or generic brand IDE HDDVD into the case at production time would be completely negligable. We're talking maybe pennies per unit for the addition administrative overhead to order different drives, and make sure they are tracked seperately. The actual production would change precisely 0, it's not like MS owns some factory that's assembling DVD drives just for the 360... they buy them form the lowest bidder by the million.

clayj
May 16, 2006, 01:40 PM
Also, I'd have to research this, but I don't think MS has any vested interest in HD-DVD the way that Sony does; they (MS) aren't in a position to 'gain' or 'lose' anything should a format win. I believe they've officially backed the HD-DVD format but, like Apple, have to be positioned to support whomever gets dominate marketshare (or both).Hive mind says you are correct, sir.

Toshiba is the prime backer of the HD-DVD standard... Microsoft and Intel are just along for the ride, if for no other reason than (in Microsoft's case) to oppose Sony in the console wars. But Microsoft has no monetary investment in HD-DVD.

I guarantee you right now there's a team of developers (maybe just one or two) working on Blu-Ray support for drives for Windows Vista and the Xbox 360... just in case they need it. (In fact, some of the new Sony PCs coming out this summer have Blu-Ray drives installed... so we know Windows will support Blu-Ray.)

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 01:44 PM
HDDVD drives are just IDE drives, same as the DVD drive in the 360 is now. The cost of stuffing in either generic brand IDE DVD drive or generic brand IDE HDDVD into the case at production time would be completely negligable. We're talking maybe pennies per unit for the addition administrative overhead to order different drives, and make sure they are tracked seperately. The actual production would change precisely 0, it's not like MS owns some factory that's assembling DVD drives just for the 360... they buy them form the lowest bidder by the million.

He is just saying that using two different kinds of drives will increase production costs.

That's because they way MS has setup the SKUs it almost does not effect manufacturing. The HDD is an addon that snaps onto the "top" of the system. That means essentially all 360 systems can come from the same assembly line.

Then they take the system and package it with the addon (which you put on yourself), the headset, and the wireless remote in order to make a "Premium" bundle.

Using two different drives makes that no longer possible. So in short, all 360 systems are the same, just the Premium is packaged with different accessories.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 01:52 PM
1. But now introduce a third SKU, the premium w/ a HD-DVD drive, clear out old premium inventory, the add-on SKU, AND the Core SKU that no one wants?
2. Problem here is that they're already losing money on the 360 on a per unit basis. Give away the razors to sell the blades. Adding HD-DVD only further increases production costs and defers the break-even point, only to benefit a handful of users who don't want HD-DVD, understand what its for, etc.

Name 1 multi-disc Xbox title for me. Now name 1 multi-disc PS2 title for me.

There's no reason to move to HD-DVD as a storage medium, MS has said this. Heck, I think even the developers have said this. DVD compression is good enough to provide them with all the space that they need. And *if* they had to ship a game on multiple discs the costs of DVD are so cheap that it's a non-issue.

Look at Oblivion, a game that was rumored at one point to be on SIX discs. Shipped for the 360 on one.

The Core may die (and I hope it does), or there could certainly be a HD-DVD "bundle," but the HD-DVD drive will never be built into the 360 nor a "value added extra" at no cost. MS has stated as much and, IMO, that's the best business strategy to take as well.

Also, I'd have to research this, but I don't think MS has any vested interest in HD-DVD the way that Sony does; they (MS) aren't in a position to 'gain' or 'lose' anything should a format win. I believe they've officially backed the HD-DVD format but, like Apple, have to be positioned to support whomever gets dominate marketshare (or both).

I'm not saying they need a new SKU. I'm saying that they CHANGE the current Premium and Core bundles. Of course there will be old stock systems that will have to move their way out of the supply chain, but it'll be a blip in the grand scheme.

The cost of making a 360 has dropped, it's just a question of wether they are willing to continue to take the same loss per system by upping the ante in the bundle.

I am also not suggesting they will ever release a game on HD-DVD. They won't. It's simply for media playback. MS wants the 360 to be a media hub for everything you do. They've said so in the past, and they continue on that path.

They have invested some cash into the HD-DVD format, pushing vendors towards it, etc, but have hedged their bets a bit with BR, I'm sure. They fought to get WMV9 format included in both formats as an approved codec, for example.

This year, I expect them to try and use up all the exisiting supply of the current Core and Premium packages, and offer just the external drive both seperately or in a bundled price. Into next year though, I'm betting on them integrating the drives into at least some of the systems.

I'll be the first to come here and pull up this thread and say I was wrong if that's the case.

He is just saying that using two different kinds of drives will increase production costs.

That's because they way MS has setup the SKUs it almost does not effect manufacturing. The HDD is an addon that snaps onto the "top" of the system. That means essentially all 360 systems can come from the same assembly line.

Then they take the system and package it with the addon (which you put on yourself), the headset, and the wireless remote in order to make a "Premium" bundle.

Using two different drives makes that no longer possible. So in short, all 360 systems are the same, just the Premium is packaged with different accessories.
I'm saying that MS clearly sees the value added proposition that Sony is giving with the BluRay drive, and they are going to want to compete with that. Selling an external drive will work, but it's not very cost effective. You have the drive, the casing, the power supply, and the cabling. You have to pass that along to the consumer, which doesn't help the value-added concept.

Putting it into the system is practically 0 cost, which would allow them to pass on a greater value to the consumer, which is going to help them appear to be a better deal than the PS3 and, they hope, ship more units.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 01:58 PM
Again, mrgreen, you seem to not realize that there is no differences in manufacturing of the Core/Premium systems. The hardware is exactly the same, the only difference is what accessories are packaged with the system.

The hard drive is not built into the Premium system, it is included in the box separate and you attach it manually. This is unlike the PS3 that has the HDD built in, it is also completely different then your suggestion of having actual internal hardware differences in the Core/Premium packages.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 02:06 PM
Again, mrgreen, you seem to not realize that there is no differences in manufacturing of the Core/Premium systems. The hardware is exactly the same, the only difference is what accessories are packaged with the system.

The hard drive is not built into the Premium system, it is included in the box separate and you attach it manually. This is unlike the PS3 that has the HDD built in, it is also completely different then your suggestion of having actual internal hardware differences in the Core/Premium packages.

Sigh. Yes, I realize that the actual console in the bundles is the same. I am saying, however, that making this change will require almost 0 extra cost to the assembly proccess. There is some underpaid Tiawanese worker getting paid to shove an IDE drive into the mostly assembled 360 frame. He takes the drive from a bin, pushes it into the slot, attaches a cable. His job is done.

Do you think that it's going to matter what sort of drive he takes out of the bin and puts into the machine? The ONLY added cost in assembly is going to be tracking which units have HDDVD drives and which don't. This could be as simple as putting a differnt colored stick onto the drive, so it's visible before the case is slapped on. Blue sticker, put case on, put onto this tray for packaging. Red sticker, put case on, put onto that tray for packaging.

You're really over complicating what is a fairly simple concept.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 02:14 PM
Obviously you could just have two bins of differing drives, sure. And yes you could slap differing color stickers on the systems if that is the method of tracking they chose.

But that "simple" change can have a lot of negative impacts. For one, you've just made the Core system be unable to upgrade to that of a Premium, even more so if you drop the HD-DVD addon completely. And if you don't, there isn't much of a point in building it into the system.

Another negative impact from the simple change is error. Risk of that guy putting the wrong sticker on the machine, or putting the wrong sticker, the wrong system (even though labeled correctly) going in the wrong box (Core package gets a 360 with an HD-DVD). The potential for those cost-losing errors are quite real.

Then you have the Supply problem. If the HD-DVD drives themselves have lower production rates and worse yields then standard DVD drives (and they certainly will until they become a standard) then the risk of having a Premium system shortage is also very real.

Since there is no reason to have the drive as it relates to gaming, then why take any of those risks with such a "simple" change? The cons outweigh the pros I'm afraid.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 02:28 PM
Obviously you could just have two bins of differing drives, sure. And yes you could slap differing color stickers on the systems if that is the method of tracking they chose.

But that "simple" change can have a lot of negative impacts. For one, you've just made the Core system be unable to upgrade to that of a Premium, even more so if you drop the HD-DVD addon completely. And if you don't, there isn't much of a point in building it into the system.

Another negative impact from the simple change is error. Risk of that guy putting the wrong sticker on the machine, or putting the wrong sticker, the wrong system (even though labeled correctly) going in the wrong box (Core package gets a 360 with an HD-DVD). The potential for those cost-losing errors are quite real.

Then you have the Supply problem. If the HD-DVD drives themselves have lower production rates and worse yields then standard DVD drives (and they certainly will until they become a standard) then the risk of having a Premium system shortage is also very real.

Since there is no reason to have the drive as it relates to gaming, then why take any of those risks with such a "simple" change? The cons outweigh the pros I'm afraid.

Why stop making the add-on? They bundle HDDs with Premium systems, so they can just stop selling them seperately, right? Oh, what, they DO sell them seperately. Ah, well there it is. Why are we even talking about them not offering an upgrade path?

Yes, someone could make an error putting in the wrong drive. They could also make the error of not putting the right accessories into the Premium box. Or they could forget to put the IDE cable in the system. Yes, this is "one more thing that could go wrong", but it's pretty minor. For one, it's a one way error. If they accidentally put an HDDVD drive into the Core system, oh well, it's a few buck lost, no customer is effected though, so chaulk it up to acceptable loss. It's only the other way around that really matters, which I suppose could happen. Dell, Apple, and every other computer maker maker seems to get the right drive in the box, even though there are more than two options (CD, DVD, DVD-R, Combo, DVD+R, DVD-DL), at least 99.999% of the time.

I've not heard any issues about HDDVD drives. They're pretty much just DVD drives with an extra "blue" laser. Of couse, what if they run short on BluRay drives? Then Sony's entire PS line will be shut down! I haven't heard any reason that HDDVD drive production shouldn't outstrip the already fairly limited 360 production.

The 360 isn't supposed to just be a gaming machine. MS has said this, and still advertises it as a "gaming and entertainment" machine. Aside which, it's not just doing it for doing its sake... it would be doing it to be seen as one upping Sony on both price, features, and options.

How about this: in November, if MS doesn't either offer the HDDVD drive for <$100 or bundle it (the add-on) at "no cost" into the Premium package you pull up this thread and say "haha, told you so". And then again in the early part of '07 if it's not integrated into the 360, you can do the same thing, rather than us go back and forth as arm-chair analysts?

XNine
May 16, 2006, 02:36 PM
Why stop making the add-on? They bundle HDDs with Premium systems, so they can just stop selling them seperately, right? Oh, what, they DO sell them seperately. Ah, well there it is. Why are we even talking about them not offering an upgrade path?

Yes, someone could make an error putting in the wrong drive. They could also make the error of not putting the right accessories into the Premium box. Or they could forget to put the IDE cable in the system. Yes, this is "one more thing that could go wrong", but it's pretty minor. For one, it's a one way error. If they accidentally put an HDDVD drive into the Core system, oh well, it's a few buck lost, no customer is effected though, so chaulk it up to acceptable loss. It's only the other way around that really matters, which I suppose could happen. Dell, Apple, and every other computer maker maker seems to get the right drive in the box, even though there are more than two options (CD, DVD, DVD-R, Combo, DVD+R, DVD-DL), at least 99.999% of the time.

I've not heard any issues about HDDVD drives. They're pretty much just DVD drives with an extra "blue" laser. Of couse, what if they run short on BluRay drives? Then Sony's entire PS line will be shut down! I haven't heard any reason that HDDVD drive production shouldn't outstrip the already fairly limited 360 production.

The 360 isn't supposed to just be a gaming machine. MS has said this, and still advertises it as a "gaming and entertainment" machine. Aside which, it's not just doing it for doing its sake... it would be doing it to be seen as one upping Sony on both price, features, and options.

How about this: in November, if MS doesn't either offer the HDDVD drive for <$100 or bundle it (the add-on) at "no cost" into the Premium package you pull up this thread and say "haha, told you so". And then again in the early part of '07 if it's not integrated into the 360, you can do the same thing, rather than us go back and forth as arm-chair analysts?

They won't bundle the drive or have the addon for 100 bucks. That's just crap right there. The HD DVD drives are extremely expensive, there's no way in hell MS would take a larger loss than they already are. Selling the HD DVD add-on causes them to lose money even at 200 bucks. Why would they jsut give a 600 dollar drive system away for no money at all?

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 02:39 PM
The point is that separating the systems by internal hardware is not a good business decision (see: Sony PS3). MS avoids this currently and they should avoid that step backwards.

The HD-DVD drive addon does not directly compare to the HDD as you are suggesting because the Premium system doesn't have the HDD built in like you are suggesting with the HD-DVD drive, rather then include it in the package as is done with the HDD.

Furthermore, if they would do as you suggest and build the drive into the system yet retain the same price then there is no reason to leave it out of any of the systems (Core or Premium). The extra $100 for Premium is justified by the HDD, Wireless Controller, and Headset... no reason to make the price disparity even greater by leaving out HD-DVD from the Core as you are suggesting.

Adding unnecessary complication, no matter how great, is not a good idea however you spin it. This is PS3s greatest shortcoming. MS had their head on straight with their plan and even though many don't like the two SKUs at least it is there and they gave enough forethought to not cause actual hardware differences and lack of an upgrade path.

Come Xbox Next, if there is a new dominant format then I've know doubt it will include it. No sense in changing their current product line, however.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 02:40 PM
They won't bundle the drive or have the addon for 100 bucks. That's just crap right there. The HD DVD drives are extremely expensive, there's no way in hell MS would take a larger loss than they already are. Selling the HD DVD add-on causes them to lose money even at 200 bucks. Why would they jsut give a 600 dollar drive system away for no money at all?


Did we just agree on something? I'm getting this strange feeling we did! ;)

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 02:41 PM
They won't bundle the drive or have the addon for 100 bucks. That's just crap right there. The HD DVD drives are extremely expensive, there's no way in hell MS would take a larger loss than they already are. Selling the HD DVD add-on causes them to lose money even at 200 bucks. Why would they jsut give a 600 dollar drive system away for no money at all?

What makes you think they are expensive? Toshiba is making money on an HDDVD player that costs $500, which has in it a P4, a gig of RAM, and bunch of other whatnot including the HDDVD reader. The drive itself is likely quite cheap. The 360 has all the CPU power it needs to do the decoding, they just need the actual drive.

Edit: Just want to add that MS touts the XBox as the "Ultimate Media Machine" right on their website. With HD movies, either HDDVD or BR, starting to hit the "maintstream" this year*, that's going to be a laughable claim to make if they don't have some HD playback support. Wether it's only in an external add-on or an internal modification they're going to have to push it to people with good pricing and bundling.

* HD Movie playback has been available for a couple years with [can't recall the specific names] HD digital video tapes. There are companies who sell prerecorded movies (well at least one company) and also recorders people have been using to record HD HBO/etc broadcasts for at least 2 years, probably more. I say mainstream as those were pretty obscure systems, HDDVD and BR are going to be in every Wallmart sooner or later.

Abulia
May 16, 2006, 03:01 PM
Sigh. Yes, I realize that the actual console in the bundles is the same. I am saying, however, that making this change will require almost 0 extra cost to the assembly proccess. There is some underpaid Tiawanese worker getting paid to shove an IDE drive into the mostly assembled 360 frame. He takes the drive from a bin, pushes it into the slot, attaches a cable. His job is done.Sadly, that's not the way it works, though.

First, the drives do cost more. There's no way around it. Production hasn't ramped up on HD-DVD units and manufacturers can sell them at a premium. Microsoft says they're on track to sell 5 million units by November (I think that's a bit high); someone going to supply them with 5 million HD-DVD drives starting tomorrow? No, I don't think so.

I don't know where this "zero cost" comes from: Add a $150-$200 (retail) drive to a Core at no additional cost? Let's low-ball and say that HD-DVD drive costs MS a mere $10 more. So MS just eats the difference? That's $50 million for no real tangible benefit. They don't have a stake in HD-DVD that Sony has in BluRay.

I'm also entirely glossing over the very real production cost problems this would cause. It's not as simple as "shoving" in a drive and calling it done; now the machines have different internal components. Now we're talking two production facilities required to do the work of one before.

Next we have the problem of selling HD-DVD units with no component cables or the A/V pack; those only come in the premium version. Perhaps this would be a good time to mention that the 360 does not support digital video out (at all) on its motherboard? :)

Drive yields for HD-DVDs are going to be horrible as well. First generation, high cost, low-yield drive versus an established DVD technology with a very low production and failure rate. So now MS has to replace even more defective 360 units with bad HD-DVD drives; they already took a beating with the power brick fiasco.

Worse of all, now we have 3-4 million 360 users (me, clayj) who got screwed by MS for being early adopters. Dave gets a shiny new 360 with HD-DVD at no additional cost and I don't? Consumer home electronics and the personal computer industry might work that way, but the video game console market doesn't. There's the "soft" cost of goodwill that will be lost to consider.

All this just to put in an HD-DVD drive that solves no real compelling need or problem and only a small percentage of the owners can even fully use?

Just a bad idea, IMO, on several different levels. The add-on is a) scalable, b) price-sensitive, c) targeted, and d) allows MS to be flexible in their plans. Sony is locked into BluRay, for better or for worse; think of the production problems they could have if mass BluRay drive yields aren't what they expect.

I'm not entirely sure why we're debating this; it's not like any of us can pick of the phone and convince Peter Moore to change their entire marketing strategy. :)

clayj
May 16, 2006, 03:08 PM
I'm not entirely sure why we're debating this; it's not like any of us can pick of the phone and convince Peter Moore to change their entire marketing strategy. :)If you say so. Remember where I used to work. ;)

Well-put argument there. There's really no reason why Microsoft would start putting HD-DVDs in 360s, at least not until Blu-Ray dies or HD-DVD drives become as commonplace as DVD drives are now. I'd say either scenario would occur in late 2007 at the very earliest, when the Xbox 360 turns two years old and planning for the NextBox is well underway.

DougTheImpaler
May 16, 2006, 03:10 PM
even then, MS wont put an HD-DVD drive in the 360. You'll see it, however, in the Xbox III (whatever it's called) if it wins the platform battle.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 03:17 PM
Sadly, that's not the way it works, though.

First, the drives do cost more. There's no way around it. Production hasn't ramped up on HD-DVD units and manufacturers can sell them at a premium. Microsoft says they're on track to sell 5 million units by November (I think that's a bit high); someone going to supply them with 5 million HD-DVD drives starting tomorrow? No, I don't think so.

I don't know where this "zero cost" comes from: Add a $150-$200 (retail) drive to a Core at no additional cost? Let's low-ball and say that HD-DVD drive costs MS a mere $10 more. So MS just eats the difference? That's $50 million for no real tangible benefit. They don't have a stake in HD-DVD that Sony has in BluRay.

I'm also entirely glossing over the very real production cost problems this would cause. It's not as simple as "shoving" in a drive and calling it done; now the machines have different internal components. Now we're talking two production facilities required to do the work of one before.

Next we have the problem of selling HD-DVD units with no component cables or the A/V pack; those only come in the premium version. Perhaps this would be a good time to mention that the 360 does not support digital video out (at all) on its motherboard? :)

Drive yields for HD-DVDs are going to be horrible as well. First generation, high cost, low-yield drive versus an established DVD technology with a very low production and failure rate. So now MS has to replace even more defective 360 units with bad HD-DVD drives; they already took a beating with the power brick fiasco.

Worse of all, now we have 3-4 million 360 users (me, clayj) who got screwed by MS for being early adopters. Dave gets a shiny new 360 with HD-DVD at no additional cost and I don't? Consumer home electronics and the personal computer industry might work that way, but the video game console market doesn't. There's the "soft" cost of goodwill that will be lost to consider.

All this just to put in an HD-DVD drive that solves no real compelling need or problem and only a small percentage of the owners can even fully use?

Just a bad idea, IMO, on several different levels. The add-on is a) scalable, b) price-sensitive, c) targeted, and d) allows MS to be flexible in their plans. Sony is locked into BluRay, for better or for worse; think of the production problems they could have if mass BluRay drive yields aren't what they expect.

I'm not entirely sure why we're debating this; it's not like any of us can pick of the phone and convince Peter Moore to change their entire marketing strategy. :)

Holy ****. I said ASSEMBLY costs. Of course the drives are more expensive. The cost of the whole 360 has come down to make, and by November it will be even less. Same goes for HDDVD drives. Give me one single source that might suggest that "yield" is bad. These aren't chips, that's not really how it works. The premium kits comes with component cables already, why not replace that with HDMI? Or put both in. While Monster gets away with charging $60 for one, HDMI cabling costs about $8 for 4 feet, tops. That's retail price, too, not manufacturing.

Do you think that Apple has two facilities for Macbook builds? I mean, one has a Superdrive one has a Combodrive! How can they tell them apart?! It just so difficult to track something through it's production cycle. :rolleyes:

Are you gonna be pissed when the 360 comes down to $299 for the Premium bundle? It will at some point you know. And all you early adopters will cry all the way home? What the **** does what you got for $400 last year have to do with what $400 will buy this year? I paid $600 for my mini and less than a year later they release a mini 4x as fast. That's how **** works, you know?

All along I said: MS may or may not put an HDDVD drive INSIDE the 360, but they will bundle them at some point, and it would be stupid of them not to eventually make them internal. This got turned into a massive argument over production methods and costs.

MS does have a stake in the HDDVD format, btw. Not as much as Sony, but they are pushing OEMs to build with HDDVD drives with monetary incentives, hoping to make it the standard for whatever reasons they have. It's not HUGE to them, like BR to Sony, but there is money on the line.

I am ****ing done with this thread.

clayj
May 16, 2006, 03:23 PM
Holy ****. I said ASSEMBLY costs. Of course the drives are more expensive. The cost of the whole 360 has come down to make, and by November it will be even less. Same goes for HDDVD drives. Give me one single source that might suggest that "yield" is bad. These aren't chips, that's not really how it works. The premium kits comes with component cables already, why not replace that with HDMI? Or put both in. While Monster gets away with charging $60 for one, HDMI cabling costs about $8 for 4 feet, tops. That's retail price, too, not manufacturing.The assembly costs will STILL increase if you split existing lines. Right now all Xbox 360s are assembled exactly the SAME way, with one minor exception (the white vs. silver facia on the DVD tray). Splitting the lines will cause an increase in cost... not to mention confusion among customers.

Do you think that Apple has two facilities for Macbook builds? I mean, one has a Superdrive one has a Combodrive! How can they tell them apart?! It just so difficult to track something through it's production cycle. :rolleyes: You're comparing Apples to oranges. :) Apple set up their line that way, so they're already at cost on that concept... not to mention, computers <> videogame consoles.

Are you gonna be pissed when the 360 comes down to $299 for the Premium bundle? It will at some point you know. And all you early adopters will cry all the way home? What the **** does what you got for $400 last year have to do with what $400 will buy this year? I paid $600 for my mini and less than a year later they release a mini 4x as fast. That's how **** works, you know?No, I won't be pissed if the price drops. But I will be pissed if, before the console's even been out a year, they start adding a feature as standard and requiring early adopters to shell out $200 for it.

All along I said: MS may or may not put an HDDVD drive INSIDE the 360, but they will bundle them at some point, and it would be stupid of them not to eventually make them internal. This got turned into a massive argument over production methods and costs.Eventually, maybe. Depends on when HD-DVD defeats Blu-Ray (if it ever does)... and by then, the next console may be out. Whatever Comes Next (TM) will certainly have a next-gen disc reader.

I am ****ing done with this thread.So I shouldn't expect a reply, then... ;)

XNine
May 16, 2006, 03:35 PM
Did we just agree on something? I'm getting this strange feeling we did! ;)

Well, we're both logical people, we just have our preferred platforms.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 03:48 PM
Well, we're both logical people, we just have our preferred platforms.

Moreso then that is probably the games we prefer and our methodology for connecting our devices (and that probably differs due to hardware ownership).

Abulia: So I think you just plagarized me BIG TIME! LOL. You pretty much said exactly what I was saying.

But hey, I am done with this topic too! gee....

Back On Topic: Yeah, so don't expect a price drop this year on 360. **sigh**

clayj
May 16, 2006, 03:52 PM
Back On Topic: Yeah, so don't expect a price drop this year on 360. **sigh**I don't agree that that's the case.

Peter Moore is certainly NOT going to announce a price decrease NOW, while the Xbox 360 has no next-gen competition. And he's not going to pre-announce a price decrease that's going to take place six months from now...

What they'll do is wait until one week before the PS3 hits stores (for those who've preordered... for those of you think you're gonna be able to walk into a store and just pick one up, I quote Judy Tenuta: "Dream on, Klingon."), and THEN announce a price drop of $50 or $100, or a feature increase (an 80 GB or 100 GB HD, for example) that equates to a price drop. When people go in to the stores and are disappointed that they can't get a PS3, they'll see a BIG stack of shiny new Xbox 360s... and they'll buy them.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 03:54 PM
But hey, I am done with this topic too! gee....

Back On Topic: Yeah, so don't expect a price drop this year on 360. **sigh**
Laugh, I know that I said I was done, but I'm going to offer a parting shot ... I agree with you! I'm not, nor was I, expecting [after the PS3 price announcement] a 360 price drop this year. My initial point, and one that I wish I would have limited my comments to, was that I do expect to see a holiday bundle with the HDDVD drive ADD ON in it, with a significant cost savings over getting a Premium bundle + HD DVD drive purchased alone.

EDIT to add that, in principal, ClayJ and I agree as well... price drop OR (what I think) add features to the existing bundles - I just think it'll be the HDDVD drive, not an increased HDD.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 04:04 PM
They have promised a larger HDD so that would be no surprise.

Honestly the more time that goes by the more I think MS made the right moves with 360. And the less I detest the Core. Yes it is less value for the money and yes it is ashame developers can't count on it being there... but very few developers actually DID use it on the original Xbox. Plus, even with an HDD a game still needs to be sure it has the available space it needs - and if it doesn't then the game should still work.

So thinking on it logically, I think they did a good job. For those people that don't have interest in the online or media center features, they can save themselves $100 and get in on 360 gaming at only $299. The people that do, well they get extra value in picking up the Premium (saving themselves at least $30 over picking up the accessories separately).

EDIT: It's all perspective in the end. And realistically, the same with PS3. "It's all in how you look at it."

clayj
May 16, 2006, 04:10 PM
EDIT to add that, in principal, ClayJ and I agree as well... price drop OR (what I think) add features to the existing bundles - I just think it'll be the HDDVD drive, not an increased HDD.The bigger HD choice comes with the obvious advantage of not requiring ANY changes to the assembly lines, aside from one day putting 20 GB drives in the Premium boxes and the next day putting 80/100 GB drives in the boxes.

The big questions for us folks who already have 360s are, when they release the bigger HDs, how much are they gonna cost (I vote to stick with the $99 price point, or less if possible) and how are we gonna get our data from the existing HDs onto the new ones.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 04:35 PM
The big questions for us folks who already have 360s are, when they release the bigger HDs, how much are they gonna cost (I vote to stick with the $99 price point, or less if possible) and how are we gonna get our data from the existing HDs onto the new ones.

My bet would be for some way to connect the drive via USB an intiate a transfer via the Guide.

Would also be nice to get some cash back in exchange for the 20GB...

XNine
May 16, 2006, 04:46 PM
My bet would be for some way to connect the drive via USB an intiate a transfer via the Guide.

Would also be nice to get some cash back in exchange for the 20GB...

This is an area where MS has fallen short. Should you accidently send back your HD with the 360 that is going to be replaced, you will get a new HDD with no transfer of information.

Of course there's a third party device coming out that enables you to take save data off the 360 HDD (there's already one on market for the memory cards).

But I don't think it'll be licensed by MS.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 04:53 PM
The bigger HD choice comes with the obvious advantage of not requiring ANY changes to the assembly lines, aside from one day putting 20 GB drives in the Premium boxes and the next day putting 80/100 GB drives in the boxes.

The big questions for us folks who already have 360s are, when they release the bigger HDs, how much are they gonna cost (I vote to stick with the $99 price point, or less if possible) and how are we gonna get our data from the existing HDs onto the new ones.

If you read what I wrote, I was pretty clear in saying the ADD-ON drive in the box. It involves no changes in manufacturing. They just put something else in the box.

I knew I tried to get away from this thread for a reason.

clayj
May 16, 2006, 05:23 PM
If you read what I wrote, I was pretty clear in saying the ADD-ON drive in the box. It involves no changes in manufacturing. They just put something else in the box.

I knew I tried to get away from this thread for a reason.I did read what you wrote. But "the ADD-ON drive in the box" = "another SKU", and that's (again) not a good idea.

takao
May 16, 2006, 05:26 PM
The bigger HD choice comes with the obvious advantage of not requiring ANY changes to the assembly lines, aside from one day putting 20 GB drives in the Premium boxes and the next day putting 80/100 GB drives in the boxes.


well if putting different HD into the boxes makes no big difference in assembly lines then hd-dvd drives wouldn't either (sometimes 2-3 years ago)
if the current 360 can support an external hd-dvd drive connected through USB then it will be able to understand a drive connected through IDE (or SATA ? anybody knows ?) rather easily .. the only problems might be heat/power concerns

after all they said they won't be releasing games on hd-dvds even with the add on out

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 05:41 PM
I did read what you wrote. But "the ADD-ON drive in the box" = "another SKU", and that's (again) not a good idea.

And a new HDD wouldn't [be anoher SKU] by the same logic? I'm sorry, I've tried really hard; but you're being dense. There'd be a Premium bundle with a 20gb HDD and one with a 60gb HDD, no? They'd be the same price, so the same product still, just a new revision.

I'm saying EXACTLY THE SAME THING. It'd still be the Premium bundle, the new revision would simply have an external HDDVD included.

In fact, with an HDDVD drive, since it's a new peripheral, old Premium boxes could be "upgraded" at the point of sale simply by giving the customer the stand alone HDDVD drive box. If you changed the HDD size, there would be nothing to do with the old Premium boxes except for sell them cheaper or send them back to MS.

clayj
May 16, 2006, 05:42 PM
well if putting different HD into the boxes makes no big difference in assembly lines then hd-dvd drives wouldn't either (sometimes 2-3 years ago)
if the current 360 can support an external hd-dvd drive connected through USB then it will be able to understand a drive connected through IDE (or SATA ? anybody knows ?) rather easily .. the only problems might be heat/power concerns

after all they said they won't be releasing games on hd-dvds even with the add on out<winces>

It makes ZERO sense to put HD-DVD drives in Xbox 360s, for all of the reasons already listed.

And when the switch to a hi-def disc format does occur, it'll be a broad measure that eliminates ALL old-style DVD drives in favor of the new format. Having two SKUs of Xbox 360, some with DVD drives and some with HD-DVD (or Blu-Ray) drives, will cause nothing but confusion.

Having an external HD-DVD drive in the same box as the 360 itself means you have to have a new SKU. And if the HD-DVD add-on is going to be intended ONLY for movie playing, why make it a standard part of the console? (Never mind that the current DVD drive can play movies. This is a standard part for ALL consoles now.)

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 05:45 PM
<winces>

It makes ZERO sense to put HD-DVD drives in Xbox 360s, for all of the reasons already listed.

And when the switch to a hi-def disc format does occur, it'll be a broad measure that eliminates ALL old-style DVD drives in favor of the new format. Having two SKUs of Xbox 360, some with DVD drives and some with HD-DVD (or Blu-Ray) drives, will cause nothing but confusion.

Having an external HD-DVD drive in the same box as the 360 itself means you have to have a new SKU. And if the HD-DVD add-on is going to be intended ONLY for movie playing, why make it a standard part of the console? (Never mind that the current DVD drive can play movies. This is a standard part for ALL consoles now.)

Laugh, you're talking yourself in circles now. The HDD isn't needed for games, it can't be, it's not in all the systems. It's for multimedia and XBox live downloadables. So why make it standard? Also, how would it be confusing to have one wth DVD and one with HDDVD? This one plays HDDVD movies, this one doesn't. Pretty simple. Does the lack of a HDD in the Core system confuse people?

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 05:47 PM
And if you think about it, a game shouldn't be programmed to require EVEN IF every system includes one (read: PS3).

Why? Because the games should still work if the HDD was full, that should be a requirement on all games, 360/PS3 alike.

clayj
May 16, 2006, 05:51 PM
Laugh, you're talking yourself in circles now. The HDD isn't needed for games, it can't be, it's not in all the systems. It's for multimedia and XBox live downloadables. So why make it standard? Also, how would it be confusing to have one wth DVD and one with HDDVD? This one plays HDDVD movies, this one doesn't. Pretty simple. Does the lack of a HDD in the Core system confuse people?Oh, dear Lord.

A hard drive is rapidly becoming de rigeur for gaming systems... so many Xbox 360 games have patches now (CoD2, DOA4, etc.) that playing with a 64 MB memory unit is no longer feasible. Plus, as Abulia and I have BOTH pointed out, the Xbox 360 should NEVER have been released without a hard drive. The Core system is a MISTAKE. The only real reason to do it was to be able to say "starting at $299".

This is HARDLY the same as adding an HD-DVD drive to the console, at increased cost, when the HD-DVD drive does NOTHING for game playing. It's not even in the same sport, much less the same ballpark.

Splitting a line into multiple SKUs causes problems for retailers. What happens when, using your example, all of the DVD-equipped Xbox 360s sell out, a retailer has a stack of more-expensive HD-DVD-equipped 360s, and no one wants to pay for the privilege of HD-DVD?

Keeping the HD-DVD drive separate, in its own box with its own SKU, is the most logical solution. If you wanna do a holiday bundle where you buy both items (the 360 and the HD-DVD drive) and get a discount, that's fine (but you better offer the discount to existing 360 owners, or we'll be pissed). But for crying out loud, NOT IN THE SAME BOX.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 06:21 PM
Oh, dear Lord.

A hard drive is rapidly becoming de rigeur for gaming systems... so many Xbox 360 games have patches now (CoD2, DOA4, etc.) that playing with a 64 MB memory unit is no longer feasible. Plus, as Abulia and I have BOTH pointed out, the Xbox 360 should NEVER have been released without a hard drive. The Core system is a MISTAKE. The only real reason to do it was to be able to say "starting at $299".

This is HARDLY the same as adding an HD-DVD drive to the console, at increased cost, when the HD-DVD drive does NOTHING for game playing. It's not even in the same sport, much less the same ballpark.

Splitting a line into multiple SKUs causes problems for retailers. What happens when, using your example, all of the DVD-equipped Xbox 360s sell out, a retailer has a stack of more-expensive HD-DVD-equipped 360s, and no one wants to pay for the privilege of HD-DVD?

Keeping the HD-DVD drive separate, in its own box with its own SKU, is the most logical solution. If you wanna do a holiday bundle where you buy both items (the 360 and the HD-DVD drive) and get a discount, that's fine (but you better offer the discount to existing 360 owners, or we'll be pissed). But for crying out loud, NOT IN THE SAME BOX.
Why would you have ANY RIGHT to be pissed that people get an HDDVD with the 360 for the same price A YEAR AFTER YOU BOUGHT IT? That's what happens, **** gets cheaper. You chose to buy early, you pay the premium. That's the most idiotic logic I've ever heard.

Moving forward, the Core system was released, like it or not, so game's can't require it. So you can't get the patches, you still get exactly the game you bought and it works.

Next, the 360 is advertised and hyped as a multimedia entertainment device. Not just a game console. Go ahead over to xbox.com and take a loot at the "ultimate gaming and entertainment device" with multimedia [photos music and movies!]! The HDDVD drive would not only add to that mantra, but it would also replicate a feature being offered my the closest competitor. It makes sense.

You never responded to how putting a larger HDD in the Premium bundle wouldn't screw up the retail chain, btw.

takao
May 16, 2006, 06:33 PM
<winces>

It makes ZERO sense to put HD-DVD drives in Xbox 360s, for all of the reasons already listed.

And when the switch to a hi-def disc format does occur, it'll be a broad measure that eliminates ALL old-style DVD drives in favor of the new format. Having two SKUs of Xbox 360, some with DVD drives and some with HD-DVD (or Blu-Ray) drives, will cause nothing but confusion.

Having an external HD-DVD drive in the same box as the 360 itself means you have to have a new SKU. And if the HD-DVD add-on is going to be intended ONLY for movie playing, why make it a standard part of the console? (Never mind that the current DVD drive can play movies. This is a standard part for ALL consoles now.)


and it makes even less sense to sell it as an external drive over the whole life time of the console

as soon as 360+hd external drive bundles (which well be available ... perhaps in spring already) start to become sell better than normal bundles (which might happen at least in the US) then microsoft will sooner or later put the drive i nthe unit directly.. after all they are saving money that way down the line (2 years from now) ... no external shell, circuits USB connections etc.

what's more convenient for retailers to sell ? a single "one size fits all" unit or a unit with like 2-3 add-ons .. yeah and the core wil be gone within 1- 1,5 years
the talking about different SKUs is irrelevant .. after i can't get current generation bundles from 3 years ago or even old xbox-controllers at a retailer...

perhaps i'm thinking too "i don't want lots of external add ons".. after all it's just an external drive and not doing really anything besides reading data.. having 2 dvd reading drives on a console system seems to be a waste for me

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 06:42 PM
clayj:

I definitely used to agree about the Core system and leaving the HDD out.

However honestly I don't think it a problem anymore. What happens when the HDD is full? Should games tell us we can't play them because there isn't enough room on the HDD? No, they should not. They should still run, with the HDD required parts deactivated (like caching, patching, etc).

Since that is the case I don't see the problem.

Microsoft was being smart really. 1) Xbox 1 games rarely took advantage of the HDD. 2) HDD adds hardware that is very hard to cost-reduce. If the system should operate fine with the HDD full, then it should operate fine without the HDD as well. It's not like games are getting installed. This is a console after all, simplicity is key.

mrgreen:

I understand what you are getting at with the "entertainment" spin, but HD-DVD isn't required for that. Both new formats could tank, and digital distribution could emerge the victor, in that case the 360 is fully equiped to hand HD movies.

I think your arguement is based on a "what if" scenario, "What if HD-DVD takes over? MS should include/bundle the drive."

But the way I look at it, even if that were to happen (HD-DVD winning), it will not be widespread enough to warrant such a move for several years. By that time news about the next Xbox will be buzzing around, so it could just wait until that new system is released.

mrgreen4242
May 16, 2006, 06:54 PM
clayj:

I understand what you are getting at with the "entertainment" spin, but HD-DVD isn't required for that. Both new formats could tank, and digital distribution could emerge the victor, in that case the 360 is fully equiped to hand HD movies.

I think your arguement is based on a "what if" scenario, "What if HD-DVD takes over? MS should include/bundle the drive."

But the way I look at it, even if that were to happen (HD-DVD winning), it will not be widespread enough to warrant such a move for several years. By that time news about the next Xbox will be buzzing around, so it could just wait until that new system is released.

It's not MY spin. It's MS's. They are pumping the Xbox as being a one stop set top box. An HD video player is going to part of that, sooner not later. With the next gen of gaming "being all about HD" according to MS and Sony, people are going to start wanting something else to do with the sets. I know I do.

Oh, and seeing as you can't even get an SD movie online for a reasonable price, I don't see HD movies over the internet being a big success.

Haoshiro
May 16, 2006, 07:05 PM
It's not MY spin. It's MS's. They are pumping the Xbox as being a one stop set top box. An HD video player is going to part of that, sooner not later. With the next gen of gaming "being all about HD" according to MS and Sony, people are going to start wanting something else to do with the sets. I know I do.

Oh, and seeing as you can't even get an SD movie online for a reasonable price, I don't see HD movies over the internet being a big success.

Point is we don't know what the "next generation of movies" will look like, so it would be foolish for MS to make a move before the time is right and with the right hardware (in terms of system integration). And it is likely that will not happen for several years.

As for online, I have actually "rented" high quality movies on several occassions at decent pricing (~$5/ea). This was DVD quality, but we can't say 720p content won't be on its way.

MS made their stance early on, that they were passing up 'HD drives' this generation in terms of making it an actual part of the console. So its very likely not to happen until the next gen (4 years from now).

Now in regards to including it in a bundle of some sort (the addon drive), my personal bet is that this is handled at the Retail level. Where companies like Best Buy setup their own bundles to push HD-DVD sales.

Abulia
May 16, 2006, 08:46 PM
I am ****ing done with this thread.The ****?

mrgreen, if you can't/don't want to have a civil discourse then please don't bother posting your profanity-laden tirade directed at me.

I'm happy for us to disagree and leave it at that, but your post was uncalled for.

clayj
May 16, 2006, 08:47 PM
Especially since he wasn't really done. :rolleyes: