9/11 Pentagon Video To Be Released Today

[kainjow]

Judicial Watch to Obtain September 11 Pentagon Video at 1 p.m. Today (http://www.judicialwatch.org/5772.shtml)

Interesting considering that all the public has is 5 frames of the plane hitting the Pentagon. This will either add more fuel to the conspiracies, or will prove them false.

We shall see :)

[Dont Hurt Me]

It took 5 years for this to be released? why? Our Govt is a Secret Beuracratic Mess, scared of the truth on anything. 5 years for this because...................

[dornoforpyros]

It took 5 years for this to be realeased? why? Our Govt is a Secret Beuracratic Mess, scared of the truth on anything. 5 years for this because...................

Hey it takes a while to film a fake video & government cover up, I mean how long were they working on the moon landing :p

[Queso]

I bet it'll look like the flying saucers in "Plan 9 From Outer Space" :D

[freeny]

Anxiously awaiting the footage....

Agreed, this will either put this to rest or bring out more theories...

Im going to bet on the latter:rolleyes:

[freeny]

This just in-

MSNBC's Pete Williams is reporting that the newly released video is a series of frames that are similar to some previously released video frames showing a fireball exploding on a exterior wall of the Pentagon. The new video frames show the same fireball exploding from a different angle. It supposedly only shows "the tip of the plane which may not be enough to satisfy the conspiracy theorist," says Williams.

They are about to play it on cnn. I will record it and post screen shots....

[XIII]

This just in-

MSNBC's Pete Williams is reporting that the newly released video is a series of frames that are similar to some previously released video frames showing a fireball exploding on a exterior wall of the Pentagon. The new video frames show the same fireball exploding from a different angle. It supposedly only shows "the tip of the plane which may not be enough to satisfy the conspiracy theorist," says Williams.

They are about to play it on cnn. I will record it and post screen shots....

Thanks.

I don't usually stray into these forums, but this I would like to see.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I know why they released it now! Bush 's poll #s are rock bottom and we have a election coming. Time to sell that Fear,over and over so we feel better about this incompetant administration of spin. Fear! Fear! Fear! even 5 years later we still need to Fear.

[freeny]

Here are the first 5 frames. The rest is just burning building
Frame 2 is the only frame where we see just the tip of a "plane".

[Don't panic]

wow! this finally settles it...

[dornoforpyros]

haha does anyone need more proof that their covering SOMETHING up if all they can release 5 years later is a few more identicle frames?

I'm not saying which "conspiracy" theory I buy into, but do believe the official story is full of holes & coverups.

[zimv20]

what am i looking at?

[freeny]

Here is a picture of the previously released photos. The new ones are either blurier or zoomed in on or from a completely different camera?

Let the conspiracies begin!....

[zap2]

not saying we did it but i can;t see anything other then an explostion in those pics and in the vidoes:rolleyes:

[freeny]

Here is a cropped animated gif..
Just click on it to view..

NOTE: This animation is NOT necessarily at the correct fps.
I threw it together in just a minute or two.

[Plymouthbreezer]

The heck? I still don't see the plane.

I do believe a plan did hit the building, but it's lame that they just won't release real images or video.

[freeny]

Although I truly believe a plane hit the pentagon, this video wont help anything as far as the conspiracies go. That thing coming in from the right in frame two could be a drunk Kennedy for all we know...

[XNine]

The heck? I still don't see the plane.

I do believe a plan did hit the building, but it's lame that they just won't release real images or video.

If you look on the right side of the frame, you'll see a white-ish nub poking out for one frame. Looks more like a missle to me. Plane noses are MUCH larger than the nosecone of a missle....

[kainjow]

Here is a cropped animated gif..
Just click on it to view..
Or better yet...
http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47655&d=1147806430

Sad, this really isn't any better. Haha let the conspiracies continue! :D

[vniow]

haha does anyone need more proof that their covering SOMETHING up if all they can release 5 years later is a few more identicle frames?

That's the real story here, its not what they're showing now, its why there's a bloody 5 year wait to see what looks like to be relatively insignificant?

[freeny]

If you look on the right side of the frame, you'll see a white-ish nub poking out for one frame. Looks more like a missle to me. Plane noses are MUCH larger than the nosecone of a missle....
That could be the right wing according to the angle it is claimed that the plane hit.

[vniow]

From the Cnn article (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/16/pentagon.video/index.html):

Judicial Watch filed a Freedom of Information Act request, but the government refused to release the video until after the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui, the convicted al Qaeda conspirator who was sentenced earlier this month to life in prison.

What the hell does that have to do with anything? :confused:

[iGary]

I don't believe the conspiracy theory guys on this, as I have at least two friends in NOVA that saw the thing flying towards Crystal City, but how in the hell can the world's largets office building, the head of defense of the richest, most powerful nation on Earth have only five ragged frames of video footage?

[scem0]

wow, how disappointing.

Why in the world did it take them 5 years to release that?!

e

[zimv20]

it occurred to me that maybe the plane is going so fast that there actually isn't a frame where the entire plane would be clearly visible. so the question is: how far does the plane fly in one video frame?

my assumptions:
1. the plane was traveling at 535 mph when it hit the building
2. video captures at 30 frames per second
3. i can do math

first we figure out how far the plane can travel in a second:
535/60/60 = .14861111 miles/s
.14861111*5280 = 784.66 ft/s

to determine how far the plane flies in one frame, we divide that by 30 and get about 26.2 feet.

see, now this bugs me. the boeing 757-200 (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757family/technical.html) is 155'3" long. let's say the video frame, above, shows that length between the front of the pentagon and the right edge of the frame.

155/26 is about 6, so i'd expect, at 535 mph, we'd see 6 frames with the plane in it. but we get one. and i'm probably being generous with the groundspeed at the time of impact (i've seen that figure cited on various sites).

is my math wrong? my formulae? my assumptions?

[skunk]

is my math wrong? my formulae? my assumptions?What makes you think the video was running at 30 fps?

[mactastic]

I'd question whether whatever camera shot that was recording a full 30 frames/sec. Many surveillance cameras record much more infrequently to save data space. Slow it down to 5 frames/second and you could miss the entire plane at the speed you cited.

[freeny]

I don't believe the conspiracy theory guys on this, as I have at least two friends in NOVA that saw the thing flying towards Crystal City, but how in the hell can the world's largets office building, the head of defense of the richest, most powerful nation on Earth have only five ragged frames of video footage?
These are perhaps the same high-tech cameras used on the early moon landings.

From what I hear now is there are several videos released beyond the one I posted that show similar footage but from different angles.

If anyone else gets a hold on these or a link Id like to see them...

[zimv20]

What makes you think the video was running at 30 fps?
i thought that was standard video frame rate. but if it's slower, or much slower, then obviously my calcs will change.

[iGary]

OK, just so I understand, is tehconspiracy theory camp saying that the US Government launched a missle at the Pentagaon, WTC etc, to justify invading Iraq/War on Terror?

I'm seriously curious...

[kainjow]

OK, just so I understand, is tehconspiracy theory camp saying that the US Government launched a missle at the Pentagaon, WTC etc, to justify invading Iraq/War on Terror?

I'm seriously curious...
Watch this when you have some free time:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848

[dornoforpyros]

OK, just so I understand, is tehconspiracy theory camp saying that the US Government launched a missle at the Pentagaon, WTC etc, to justify invading Iraq/War on Terror?

I'm seriously curious...

yeah there's a film out there called Loose Change (you can find it on google videos) where the guys basically outline how & why & 'proof' (I'll let you be the judge for yourself) of the theory that the whole thing was orchestrated by the US gov. The Twin Towers didn't fall because of plains hitting them, they were demolished with explosives, the pentegon didn't get by a plane, but a missle, and even going far enough to say that flight 93 never crashed, it landed safetly and everyone got off.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what's in the film, just giving you the quick & sloppy breakdown.

[Dont Hurt Me]

That could be the right wing according to the angle it is claimed that the plane hit.I would agree.

[zimv20]

That could be the right wing according to the angle it is claimed that the plane hit.
i don't think that's right. look where the explosion is, then compare it to where the explosion should be if the angle were such that we could see the right wing but not the nose cone.

[IJ Reilly]

yeah there's a film out there called Loose Change (you can find it on google videos) where the guys basically outline how & why & 'proof' (I'll let you be the judge for yourself) of the theory that the whole thing was orchestrated by the US gov. The Twin Towers didn't fall because of plains hitting them, they were demolished with explosives, the pentegon didn't get by a plane, but a missle, and even going far enough to say that flight 93 never crashed, it landed safetly and everyone got off.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with what's in the film, just giving you the quick & sloppy breakdown.

No, no. I have it on very good authority that Fight 93 was beamed up by the Enterprise during one of those time travel episodes. The passengers and crew are now living in the 23rd century. The explosions you see in the Pentagon video were caused by Klingon disrupters. No wonder the government didn't want to tell us!

Wait... my toaster is calling me. More later.

[Dont Hurt Me]

LOL, there isnt any conspiracy here folks just a incompetant,inept blundering Govt thats it.

[zimv20]

Wait... my toaster is calling me.
it's my blender. he wants a word.

[IJ Reilly]

it's my blender. he wants a word.

My toaster is a she. Say, what's going on here? I don't need any more little appliances!

[skunk]

My toaster is a she. Say, what's going on here? I don't need any more little appliances!Can I hear the pitter-patter of tiny widgets?

[XNine]

i don't think that's right. look where the explosion is, then compare it to where the explosion should be if the angle were such that we could see the right wing but not the nose cone.

I agree. The angle would be to sharp for it to suddenly veer into the pentagon at 40-50 feet when coming in.

As far as security cameras, I believe most of them record at 12fps (this is adjustable on most newer from the last 5-6 years cameras with software) to not only compensate for data storage, but most security people don't expect an object traveling over 500 MPH zooming through the field of vision....

[zimv20]

okay, i'll try it with the video camera operating @ 12 fps.


.14861111*5280 = 784.66 ft/s

to determine how far the plane flies in one frame, we divide that by 30 and get about 26.2 feet.
dividing by 12 instead of 30 gets us about 65.4 feet. 155 (feet of the 757) / 65.4 gets us about 2 1/3.

let me work this the other way. we see the plane in one frame, so let's say the foot/frame rate is 155.

785/x = 155
x = 785/155 = 5 (ish), so as mac suggested, the frame rate must be 5 for this to make sense.

i can buy that.

[XNine]

okay, i'll try it with the video camera operating @ 12 fps.


dividing by 12 instead of 30 gets us about 65.4 feet. 155 (feet of the 757) / 65.4 gets us about 2 1/3.

let me work this the other way. we see the plane in one frame, so let's say the foot/frame rate is 155.

785/x = 155
x = 785/155 = 5 (ish), so as mac suggested, the frame rate must be 5 for this to make sense.

i can buy that.

5 fps is not disagreeable. I've seen as low as 4 fps (I used to do high-end audio video).

[zimv20]

My toaster is a she. Say, what's going on here? I don't need any more little appliances!
i think they're plotting our deaths. per a short story i read some 30 years ago about a razor and a hairbrush.

[IJ Reilly]

Can I hear the pitter-patter of tiny widgets?

Last time this happened, we ended up with an entire litter. What the heck are we going to do with 14 spatulas?

[zimv20]

What the heck are we going to do with 14 spatulas?
get 14 stoves and 14 PJ Soles and i'll tell you.

[dornoforpyros]

No, no. I have it on very good authority that Fight 93 was beamed up by the Enterprise during one of those time travel episodes. The passengers and crew are now living in the 23rd century. The explosions you see in the Pentagon video were caused by Klingon disrupters. No wonder the government didn't want to tell us!

Wait... my toaster is calling me. More later.

Until I see it on google video I believe nothing! ;)

[IJ Reilly]

get 14 stoves and 14 PJ Soles and i'll tell you.

Would that be sole food?

[Don't panic]

here is a link to other "videos" from NYT

http://play.rbn.com/?url=ap/nynyt/g2demand/0516dv_pentagon_plane_raw_SS.rm&proto=rtsp&mode=compact

[Sedulous]

Wasn't there a video from the hotel across the street? That would have certainly caught the plane approaching. They should release this as well.

[Danksi]

Just as people were starting to 'forget' and feel slightly safer - bosh, the National Guard are sent to the Southern border and video footage of the pentagon getting blown up is released. :eek:

[BornAgainMac]

This video isn't helping. I really don't want to believe the coverup story but it is hard to ignore. Also on '24, President Logan reminds me of Bush for some reason. I wonder if Bush watches 24 and identifies himself in the TV show.

At least the possibility of people controlling the president behind closed doors.

[zimv20]

I wonder if Bush watches 24 and identifies himself in the TV show.
with jack bauer, i assume.

[pseudobrit]

This video isn't helping. I really don't want to believe the coverup story but it is hard to ignore.

My brother, in D.C.'s Old Guard at the time, picked pieces of plane out of the jet fuel-soaked Pentagon wreckage during the cleanup. Body parts, too.

My brother's harder to ignore than whackjobs with a pile of grainy video and a tenous grasp of physics.

This is something that happened in full view of thousands of people. There were at least hundreds more involved in the cleanup. You can't fake this for the same reason you can't fake a moon landing. There're way too many sources for leaks.

The government can't deliver the mail; you expect them to keep a secret like this?

[solvs]

What the hell does that have to do with anything? :confused:
It's an excuse, it doesn't have to make sense. And the conspiracy nuts will never stop. Not saying there aren't questions I want answered (that'll probably never be answered), I just don't think it's as simple as they seem to think it is.

And can we please not joke about this here. I get we're all a little uncomfortable, but it's still kinda a touchy subject. :( Thanks.

[sushi]

Had a few friends die in the Pentagon.

I attended a briefing where they showed some pictures. I personally saw some of the death places where you could definitely see small parts of the airplane.

IMHO, there is no doubt that a plane hit the Pentagon on that day.

Conspiracy theorists try to make something out of nothing.

[Danksi]

...Conspiracy theorists try to make something out of nothing.

Much like the Bush Administration and their reasons for going to war with Iraq.

[FFTT]

I would just like to know why the FBI immediately seized the CCTV films from the service station across the road with a perfect view of the aircraft's trajectory and the same for the hotel's CCTV film and have repeatedly refused
to show their content.

I know the results were tragic, but why so much secrecy?

[XNine]

I would just like to know why the FBI immediately seized the CCTV films from the service station across the road with a perfect view of the aircraft's trajectory and the same for the hotel's CCTV film and have repeatedly refused
to show their content.

I know the results were tragic, but why so much secrecy?

Not really sure, but I heard on the news this morning that the Agency that filed suit to have THIS video released have filed suit to get those two videos that you mentioned.

[FFTT]

I also filed a FOIA request last August directly with the FAA requesting additional information and did receive a reply this month.

The investigation is STILL going on and they hope to complete their findings
within approximately 3 months.

[mactastic]

I know the results were tragic, but why so much secrecy?
This government knows no other way.

[IJ Reilly]

I'm not sticking up for government secrecy, but I have to admit to being puzzled by the fervent desire to see these videos. Seems like at least a little bit of ghoulishness is at work here. Personally, I find the videos disturbing, if only because I can't help thinking about how it felt to be on that airplane, or walking the corridors of the Pentagon when it hit. I don't need this. Who does?

[dornoforpyros]

I'm not sticking up for government secrecy, but I have to admit to being puzzled by the fervent desire to see these videos. Seems like at least a little bit of ghoulishness is at work here. Personally, I find the videos disturbing, if only because I can't help thinking about how it felt to be on that airplane, or walking the corridors of the Pentagon when it hit. I don't need this. Who does?

I think it's just the fact that:
1)It's the pentagon, a super secretive government building
2)The gas station & hotel video being collected so quickly and still no released

hehe reminds me of the Simpsons
Chief Wiggum "What is your fascination with my forbidden closet of mystery?"

[blitzkrieg79]

So... I watched the "new" pentagon video and how is this diferent from what was released in 2001? I still can't see an airplane.

Pentagon, the main center of the strongest, most advanced military in the world and they couldn't afford 24fps surveillance cameras? Simply amazing.

Some people say that an airplane hit the building, some say a missile, and I am more than sure that if FBI or whoever is holding the other tapes from nearby buildings such as Sheraton hotel or various gas stations around the Pentagon would actually release it, maybe we would see the truth. But then again, in 5 years I could even fabricate a 10 second video tape showing anything.

All I know is that US government has lost its credibility in my eyes and throughout the entire world. It will take a lot of time to regain the trust.

[IJ Reilly]

I think it's just the fact that:
1)It's the pentagon, a super secretive government building
2)The gas station & hotel video being collected so quickly and still no released

hehe reminds me of the Simpsons
Chief Wiggum "What is your fascination with my forbidden closet of mystery?"

So, whatever you can't see must contain critical information relating to important questions? That must be true -- I feel the same way about my spleen!

[skunk]

So, whatever you can't see must contain critical information relating to important questions? That must be true -- I feel the same way about my spleen!You're probably right to do so. Tricky little bastards, spleens. You never know what they're up to.

[IJ Reilly]

You're probably right to do so. Tricky little bastards, spleens. You never know what they're up to.

I know, they have a lot of gall.

[skunk]

I know, they have a lot of gall.Where did you study medicine?

[IJ Reilly]

Where did you study medicine?

Are you saying I'm wrong? You wouldn't kidney, would you?

[Dagless]

tch, it's easily a fake. :cool:

[dornoforpyros]

So, whatever you can't see must contain critical information relating to important questions? That must be true -- I feel the same way about my spleen!

Secrecy makes people Curious , it's human nature. And when it's the government keeping a secret it makes people suspicious. For all we know the other video is being with held because Dick Cheny was walking buy an open window in his underwear!

[IJ Reilly]

Secrecy makes people Curious , it's human nature. And when it's the government keeping a secret it makes people suspicious. For all we know the other video is being with held because Dick Cheny was walking buy an open window in his underwear!

Oh, thank you so much for that image! :eek:

[zimv20]

Are you saying I'm wrong? You wouldn't kidney, would you?
easy on the spleen, guys. it determines if we liver die.

[IJ Reilly]

easy on the spleen, guys. it determines if we liver die.

You couldn't liver alone, could you?

[bitfactory]

Just as people were starting to 'forget' and feel slightly safer - bosh, the National Guard are sent to the Southern border and video footage of the pentagon getting blown up is released. :eek:

If someone was starting to 'forget' or 'feel slightly safer' they deserve to get their cage rattled. Watching the towers fall, or the viewing the gaping hole in the USS Cole should be required viewing by all citizens at least once a year, imo. American's attention spans are too short.

Additionally, if you think 'they' have packed their tents and gone home you have no grasp of the situation.

[aquajet]

Watching the towers fall, or the viewing the gaping hole in the USS Cole should be required viewing by all citizens at least once a year, imo.

What is your reasoning for this?

[bitfactory]

My brother, in D.C.'s Old Guard at the time, picked pieces of plane out of the jet fuel-soaked Pentagon wreckage during the cleanup. Body parts, too.

My brother's harder to ignore than whackjobs with a pile of grainy video and a tenous grasp of physics.

This is something that happened in full view of thousands of people. There were at least hundreds more involved in the cleanup. You can't fake this for the same reason you can't fake a moon landing. There're way too many sources for leaks.

The government can't deliver the mail; you expect them to keep a secret like this?

Best post all year.

[IJ Reilly]

If someone was starting to 'forget' or 'feel slightly safer' they deserve to get their cage rattled. Watching the towers fall, or the viewing the gaping hole in the USS Cole should be required viewing by all citizens at least once a year, imo. American's attention spans are too short.

Additionally, if you think 'they' have packed their tents and gone home you have no grasp of the situation.

Oh my yes, we should never feel safer, ever a little. Imagine, just imagine, if we didn't have this stuff in our face all the time. Let's all be permanently edgy -- together!

[bitfactory]

Oh my yes, we should never feel safer, ever a little. Imagine, just imagine, if we didn't have this stuff in our face all the time. Let's all be permanently edgy -- together!

Simple, if we didn't have this stuff in our face all the time chances are > it'll end up happening again, imo. We were asleep at the wheel during the first WTC, again during the USS Cole debacle, and YET AGAIN during the second WTC attack.

No doubt if this WASN'T in everyone's faces and it happened again, people would be asking 'why weren't we warned to be more careful.' blah blah blah.

Much like the database of telephone calls. It's a no-win situation. Phone call database + no terrorist attack = uproar about collecting database of phone records. No phone call database + terrorist attack = uproar about not collecting database of phone records. There's no need to put party lines here - we all know the players.

[aquajet]

Oh my yes, we should never feel safer, ever a little. Imagine, just imagine, if we didn't have this stuff in our face all the time. Let's all be permanently edgy -- together!

Check your consternation and check it often. There's just no reason not to.

And call Pfizer. They can help you live a better life.

[zimv20]

You couldn't liver alone, could you?
i had a small interest in furthering the punning.

[IJ Reilly]

Check your consternation and check it often. There's just no reason not to.

And call Pfizer. They can help you live a better life.

For consternation, I use X-Lax.

[IJ Reilly]

Simple, if we didn't have this stuff in our face all the time chances are > it'll end up happening again, imo. We were asleep at the wheel during the first WTC, again during the USS Cole debacle, and YET AGAIN during the second WTC attack.

No doubt if this WASN'T in everyone's faces and it happened again, people would be asking 'why weren't we warned to be more careful.' blah blah blah.

Much like the database of telephone calls. It's a no-win situation. Phone call database + no terrorist attack = uproar about collecting database of phone records. No phone call database + terrorist attack = uproar about not collecting database of phone records. There's no need to put party lines here - we all know the players.

No, I don't think so. In fact I think the endless repetition of the constant peril we're supposed to be living in constitutes an effort to manipulate our emotions, and if politicians are doing it just to cover their own backsides, then I'm even less interested in hearing it.

[aquajet]

Much like the database of telephone calls. It's a no-win situation. Phone call database + no terrorist attack = uproar about collecting database of phone records. No phone call database + terrorist attack = uproar about not collecting database of phone records. There's no need to put party lines here - we all know the players.

I don't recall anybody complaining about the lack of a comprehensive telephone spy program after 11 Sept. Your logic is faulty.

[mactastic]

Watching the towers fall, or the viewing the gaping hole in the USS Cole should be required viewing by all citizens at least once a year, imo. American's attention spans are too short.
Can we show that alongside viewings of that Vietnamese girl with her skin hanging off, and video of Hiroshima survivors, and shots of the aftermath of the Exxon Valdez too?

How about video of seniors forced to choose between food and medicine? And autopsy photos of Matt Shepard? Maybe some footage of the effects of white phosphorous on the residents of Fallujah?

I mean, Americans have such short memories after all...

[blitzkrieg79]

If someone was starting to 'forget' or 'feel slightly safer' they deserve to get their cage rattled. Watching the towers fall, or the viewing the gaping hole in the USS Cole should be required viewing by all citizens at least once a year, imo. American's attention spans are too short.

Additionally, if you think 'they' have packed their tents and gone home you have no grasp of the situation.


No grasp of the situtation? Most Americans don't care about the rest of the world. They want to live their lifes happy and don't want to be bothered with any worldwide problems (but that goes for most citizens of every country, we just wanna live).

The problem is American politics, you would think that USA can do no wrong, never make a mistake, then you are mistaking. USA needs to change it's politics towards Israel and stop being so biased towards them and stop supporting them so much, Israel (located on land which historically has belonged to the Arabs) wants to have their own country let them fight their own wars. But the Jewish lobby has too much of a grasp on American political scene.

This is not an American nor European conflict, at least not yet.

You think that attacks at WTC in 1993 or USS Cole or 9/11 happened because Muslims had nothing better to do and just attacked US? What they did is definately wrong but it is justified to a certain extent. Of course USA has the right to defend and avenge their losses but attack at Iraq wasn't necessary, most of the so called terrorist that participated in 9/11 were Saudis, why not attack Saudi Arabia?

Because USA is too tied up in the oil business with the Saudi king and various sheiks there. USA fights for "democracy" around the world, and I lived in a couple of Western countries and USA to me is the least democratic country of them all, actually USA to me is a police state, racist, and discriminating as it gets. They want to fight for democracy outiside of their own borders? First they need to take care of it's own internal problems.

Thousands of people lost lives on 9/11 but that is a common thing in the middle east and has been eversince the WW2 ended and the country of Israel has been established out of English colony, who had no right of being there in the first place. You can invade any country you want but over the long run it is not worth it, you will suffer larger and larger losses. My homeland knows something about it, 3 countries at the same time attacked us and we were partitioned but after almost 150 years we had regained our independence. Persistance pays off.

[calculus]

If someone was starting to 'forget' or 'feel slightly safer' they deserve to get their cage rattled. Watching the towers fall, or the viewing the gaping hole in the USS Cole should be required viewing by all citizens at least once a year, imo. American's attention spans are too short.

Additionally, if you think 'they' have packed their tents and gone home you have no grasp of the situation.
So if everyone holds hands and worries together things will get better?

[xsedrinam]

For consternation, I use X-Lax.
It's best to view the consternation at night in a remote setting. I hadn't heard of an x-lax telescope, though.

[IJ Reilly]

It's best to view the consternation at night in a remote setting. I hadn't heard of an x-lax telescope, though.

How canis be true? Are you sirius?

[IJ Reilly]

The problem is American politics, you would think that USA can do no wrong, never make a mistake, then you are mistaking. USA needs to change it's politics towards Israel and stop being so biased towards them and stop supporting them so much, Israel (located on land which historically has belonged to the Arabs) wants to have their own country let them fight their own wars. But the Jewish lobby has too much of a grasp on American political scene.

How do you establish to whom the land of Israel belonged historically? Shall we give it back to Egypt? The Romans? The Ottoman Turks? The French, the British... you decide, since you seem to have the historical ownership worked out. But definitely not the Jews. They were never residents of that part of the world over any historical period that really mattered. Right?

BTW, when you speak of the "Jewish lobby," this sounds awfully close to classic anti-Semitic code words. I think you'll find, these days, that the strongest support for Israel comes from the evangelical Christian community.

[xsedrinam]

How canis be true? Are you sirius?
Uh huh, zodiactual proof is in the pudding forth of more evidence.


edit: typos take all the pun out

[blitzkrieg79]

How do you establish to whom the land of Israel belonged historically? Shall we give it back to Egypt? The Romans? The Ottoman Turks? The French, the British... you decide, since you seem to have the historical ownership worked out. But definitely not the Jews. They were never residents of that part of the world over any historical period that really mattered. Right?

BTW, when you speak of the "Jewish lobby," this sounds awfully close to classic anti-Semitic code words. I think you'll find, these days, that the strongest support for Israel comes from the evangelical Christian community.

Ehhh, I know, these days you can't say anything negative about Jewish community without being called an anti-semite. The current state of Israel was a gift from Britain (under the request of USA) in 1948 if I am not mistaking. And just look at the names of people in US government and tell me there is no Jewish lobby...

My point is that if Israel wants to keep it's country let them fight their own battles, why do American soldiers need to be involved in something that is not even related to their own country? Why does the US government basically yearly gives billions of dollars to Israel for nothing? Why do US supplies weapons to Israel and not to Arabic countries? All I am saying is that US should become more neutral to both parties, thats all.

USA should sell the same weapons at the same prices to the Arab countries just like it is doing to Israel. Right away you may call me crazy but didn't USA actually sold weapons to Arab countries most notably in 1980s? And during that time, was the country of USA ever attacked on it's own soil?

The current government has no clue as of what they are doing and worst yet, they really don't know where they are going or where they are going and how to get there.

[skunk]

the country of Israel has been established out of English colonyWell, not exactly.:rolleyes:

[xsedrinam]

Originally Posted by blitzkrieg79
the country of Israel has been established out of English colony
Well, not exactly.:rolleyes:
Ur, do tell.

[pseudobrit]

Simple, if we didn't have this stuff in our face all the time chances are > it'll end up happening again...

No doubt if this WASN'T in everyone's faces and it happened again, people would be asking 'why weren't we warned to be more careful.' blah blah blah.

What good does it do me if I watch 9/11 footage every day and look at photos of the USS Cole?

How will that help the government stop terrorist attacks on US soil? I'm genuinely anxious to hear a direct answer.

[zimv20]

How will that help the government stop terrorist attacks on US soil? I'm genuinely anxious to hear a direct answer.
i know how. shall i say or are we waiting for a reply which will never come?

[IJ Reilly]

Ehhh, I know, these days you can't say anything negative about Jewish community without being called an anti-semite. The current state of Israel was a gift from Britain (under the request of USA) in 1948 if I am not mistaking. And just look at the names of people in US government and tell me there is no Jewish lobby...

My point is that if Israel wants to keep it's country let them fight their own battles, why do American soldiers need to be involved in something that is not even related to their own country? Why does the US government basically yearly gives billions of dollars to Israel for nothing? Why do US supplies weapons to Israel and not to Arabic countries? All I am saying is that US should become more neutral to both parties, thats all.

USA should sell the same weapons at the same prices to the Arab countries just like it is doing to Israel. Right away you may call me crazy but didn't USA actually sold weapons to Arab countries most notably in 1980s? And during that time, was the country of USA ever attacked on it's own soil?

The current government has no clue as of what they are doing and worst yet, they really don't know where they are going or where they are going and how to get there.

"These days?" Really, it what day was it okay? The fact is, it's difficult to talk about this the way you do without anti-Semitism at least being suspected. Clearly we also have an Italian lobby and an Irish lobby and Latin lobby and who know how many other lobbies. I mean, just look at the names.

Your historical understanding of the establishment of the State of Israel is incomplete at best. I was also unaware of our military presence in Israel. Care to elaborate?

The U.S. has been providing over $2 billion a year in aid to Egypt since they signed the Camp David accords in 1979, more than half of it military aid. The U.S. has also aided the Palestinian Authority.

[pseudobrit]

...they really don't know where they are going or where they are going...

And I worry you may not know what you are talking about or what you are talking about. Jewish lobby? "Look at the names"? WTF?

[pseudobrit]

i know how. shall i say or are we waiting for a reply which will never come?

Direct answers only, please. Ixnay on the "oh, we'll remember to elect strong anti-terror politicians" or "we'll all be so suspicious of brown people that they'll never be able to do anything strange -- like walk the dog at 1AM -- without us calling the FBI and DHS."

[zimv20]

like walk the dog at 1AM
walking the dog at 1 a.m.? that's worse than plowing on sundays!

[blitzkrieg79]

And I worry you may not know what you are talking about or what you are talking about. Jewish lobby? "Look at the names"? WTF?

Paul Dundes Wolfowitz - Deputy Secretary, Department of Defense

Richard Perle - Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy.

Ari Fleischer - White House Press Secretary

Josh Bolten - Deputy Chief of Staff

Ken Melman - White House Political Director

Jay Lefkowitz - Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council

David Frum - Speechwriter

Brad Blakeman - White House Director of Scheduling

Dov Zakheim - Undersecretary of Defense (Controller)

I. Lewis Libby - Chief of Staff to the Vice President

Adam Goldman - White House Liaison to the Jewish Community

Chris Gersten - Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families at HHS

Elliott Abrams - Director of the National Security Council's Office for Democracy, Human Rights ( !!! ) and International Operations

Mark D. Weinberg - Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs

Douglas Feith - Under Secretary of Defense for Policy

Michael Chertoff - Head of the Justice Department's criminal division

Daniel Kurtzer - Ambassador to Israel ( !!! )


Cliff Sobel - Ambassador to the Netherlands

Stuart Bernstein - Ambassador to Denmark

Nancy Brinker - Ambassador to Hungary

Frank Lavin - Ambassador to Singapore

Ron Weiser - Ambassador to Slovakia

Mel Sembler - Ambassador to Italy

Martin Silverstein - Ambassador to Uruguay

... and of course there is more of them in senate and house of representatives. I know there are other lobbies in US gov't but none of them have as many members of one community as Jews nor in as high places as Jews. And no I don't consider myself an anti-semite, it's just that no one is going to tell me there is no bias in US gov't towards Israel and because of it bias against Arabs.

[IJ Reilly]

No one is going to tell you anything, are they?

Oh my, all those Jews. All working for "their people" of course.

I'd be curious to know where you came up with such a comprehensive list on such short order.

[mactastic]

Ok, so we're counting not only politicians, but speechwriters, ambassadors, cabinet secretaries, members of national political parties, as well as members of the NSA and Justice Dept.

That's literally thousands of people to draw from. I would imagine the list of non-Jewish folk from that same pool would vastly outnumber the posted list.

Besides, if the Jewish lobby is so powerful, why haven't they gotten one elected President yet?

[blitzkrieg79]

No one is going to tell you anything, are they?

Oh my, all those Jews. All working for "their people" of course.

I'd be curious to know where you came up with such a comprehensive list on such short order.

Ehhhhh, in all reality I could care less about it all, I am living a comfortable life, I can't complain about anything but there are certain facts in this world that can't be ignored but some people in high places do ignore them and make unjustified/uneducated decisions because of ignorance and greed.

Anyway, why are you getting all defensive and asking about the list in such a short time? It's actually all very easy, if you are following politics you would know:)

[blitzkrieg79]

Ok, so we're counting not only politicians, but speechwriters, ambassadors, cabinet secretaries, members of national political parties, as well as members of the NSA and Justice Dept. members.

That's literally thousands of people to draw from. I would imagine the list of non-Jewish folk from that same pool would vastly outnumber the posted list.

Yeah of course, just one little problem, look at the rankings of some of those officials particurarly Wolfowitz, Bolten, and Perle (you can't get any much higher than that), they are definately not "nobodies". These are people who make decisions in US government intrests and ambassadors are quite influential too.

[IJ Reilly]

Ehhhhh, in all reality I could care less about it all, I am living a comfortable life, I can't complain about anything but there are certain facts in this world that can't be ignored but some people in high places do ignore them and make unjustified/uneducated decisions because of ignorance and greed.

Anyway, why are you getting all defensive and asking about the list in such a short time? It's actually all very easy, if you are following politics you would know:)

Oh, I see -- all off the top of your head?

Don't want to cite your source, do you?

[IJ Reilly]

It wasn't difficult to locate the source of this list:

http://www.cephas-library.com/mystery/mystery_bush_jews.html

The master site of this organization is worth a look:

http://www.cephasministry.com/index_mystery_of_iniquity.html

Nice to know that lists of this kind are maintained by such level-headed people.

[FFTT]

This discussion certainly seems to have wandered off topic.

But maybe not.

The right wing Christian Extremists blame the Muslim Extremists,
who blame the Jewish Extremists for all the worlds problems.

The problem is that the masses have placed their faith, their trust and their destiny in the hands of deceitful criminals who claim to be honorable Christians, Muslims and Jews.

Now which should we trust more?

A crooked lying greedy Christian
A crooked lying greedy Muslim
A crooked lying greedy Jew
or perhaps a crooked lying greedy Buddhist.

How about none of the above?

Hopefully one day mankind will know the difference between
the word of God and the self serving words of men.

[solvs]

What good does it do me if I watch 9/11 footage every day and look at photos of the USS Cole?
The same good warrantless searching of innocent people does. Which is to say, not much. If at all. It would help if we did learn from our mistakes, but from what we've seen, despite all the talk of remembering 9/11, we haven't learned a darn thing. Made things worse even. But I guess that was your point.

And seriously guys, must we pun? I'm asking nice here.

[pseudobrit]

Anyway, why are you getting all defensive and asking about the list in such a short time? It's actually all very easy, if you are following politics you would know:)

I'm worried about the English lobby infecting our government. I know Bush and Cheney come from old English families, but I'm terrified it may go much deeper.

Since I obviously don't follow politics as closely as you I was wondering if you'd come up with a similar list of politicians with British ancestry.

[blitzkrieg79]

I'm worried about the English lobby infecting our government. I know Bush and Cheney come from old English families, but I'm terrified it may go much deeper.

Since I obviously don't follow politics as closely as you I was wondering if you'd come up with a similar list of politicians with British ancestry.

Can you please tell me why are you afraid of the English lobby in the USA? Great Britain is not where Israelis and Palestinians battle it out every day. I wouldn't have a problem with the entire Middle East conflict if US troops would stay out of it and so would US government. Tell me why US doesn't interfere in Chechenia or why is US also quiet about Turkish genocide of Armenians? Are those people less important than the others?

The Israeli conflict has been going on for over 50 years, again, they wanna fight, let them fight but why should we risk our lives for it? World freedom? USA needs to take care of their own internal problems first before they will teach the world about freedom.

[FFTT]

You are forgetting about the Military Industrial Lobby, the Big Oil lobby, the Big Pharma lobby, the Big Bank and Securities Lobby, and the Evangelical Extremist Lobby, the Insurance Lobby, etc.

[mactastic]

Yeah of course, just one little problem, look at the rankings of some of those officials particurarly Wolfowitz, Bolten, and Perle (you can't get any much higher than that), they are definately not "nobodies". These are people who make decisions in US government intrests and ambassadors are quite influential too.
Antonin Scalia
John Roberts
Clarence Thomas
John Paul Stevens
Samuel Alito
George Bush
Richard Cheney
Condoleeza Rice
Bill Frist
Dennis Hastert
Trent Lott
John McCain
Nancy Pelosi
Tom Tancredo
Karen Hughes
Karl Rove
Dan Bartlett
Ted Kennedy
Robert Byrd
James Sensenbrenner
Tony Snow
John Kerry
John Edwards
Hillary Clinton

I think I've equaled your list -- and without resorting to ambassadors, speechwriters, and other low-ranking officials. Is that proof of a Christian Lobby? Or is it just proof that Jews are nowhere near a majority of the government of the US?

[blitzkrieg79]

Antonin Scalia
John Roberts
Clarence Thomas
John Paul Stevens
Samuel Alito
George Bush
Richard Cheney
Condoleeza Rice
Bill Frist
Dennis Hastert
Trent Lott
John McCain
Nancy Pelosi
Tom Tancredo
Karen Hughes
Karl Rove
Dan Bartlett
Ted Kennedy
Robert Byrd
James Sensenbrenner
Tony Snow
John Kerry
John Edwards
Hillary Clinton

I think I've equaled your list -- and without resorting to ambassadors, speechwriters, and other low-ranking officials. Is that proof of a Christian Lobby? Or is it just proof that Jews are nowhere near a majority of the government of the US?

Where did you get this list? And on such a short notice? :P Anyway, when/where did I actually say that Jewish community is the majority of our government? Someone asked me for a list of couple of high ranking Jewish officials so I gave it to them. I just said they are highly influential (as they are one of the largest groups in our government but not the largest), ok let me put it this way, how many Muslims (Muslim/Arabic origin) are in our government and how many Jews? I can't think of one Arab in our Senate.

[blitzkrieg79]

You are forgetting about the Military Industrial Lobby, the Big Oil lobby, the Big Pharma lobby, the Big Bank and Securities Lobby, and the Evangelical Extremist Lobby, the Insurance Lobby, etc.

I sense a bit of sarcasm BUT hmmmmm, who do you think runs most of the Military Industry, Oil Companies, Pharmaceutical Companies, and especially the Big Banks?

Anyway, I am going to end this discussion right now as it is hopless anyway, ain't gonna change anything, and I don't want it to become racist although to certain extent it already is but I guess it's my fault but certain facts can't be overlooked. These days everyone has to be politically correct and keep the real feelings inside which is especially true in the US (at least in my experience), I didn't notice the "fakeness" in Europe.

Over-n-out

[FFTT]

Oh that's CLASSIFIED! :cool:

[IJ Reilly]

Someone asked me for a list of couple of high ranking Jewish officials so I gave it to them.

Nobody actually asked, you just volunteered it. Coming as no surprise (though you'd never admit it), the list was retrieved from a web site run by and for a group of crypto-Christian wingnut conspiracy theorists. This is the very sort of organization that maintains lists of this kind. The tinfoil hat crowd. You could probably also find one at the web site for the Aryan Brotherhood, or some such neo-nazi freak-out organization, of the type that looks for and always seems to find Jews in the woodpile, Jew in the closets, Jews running everything, for (naturally) the benefit of Jews. (And no evidence that the holocaust ever happened -- this is one the costs of admission to this wacky club.)

Please think on this before you make any claims, especially of being personally unbiased.

[blitzkrieg79]

Nobody actually asked, you just volunteered it. Coming as no surprise (though you'd never admit it), the list was retrieved from a web site run by and for a group of crypto-Christian wingnut conspiracy theorists. This is the very sort of organization that maintains lists of this kind. The tinfoil hat crowd. You could probably also find one at the web site for the Aryan Brotherhood, or some such neo-nazi freak-out organization, of the type that looks for and always seems to find Jews in the woodpile, Jew in the closets, Jews running everything, for (naturally) the benefit of Jews. (And no evidence that the holocaust ever happened -- this is one the costs of admission to this wacky club.)

Please think on this before you make any claims, especially of being personally unbiased.

One of the users (Pseudobrit) asked about "what names", so I responded. Anyway, I don't think it matters where the list comes from, my point is that there is an influential Jewish lobby in US government, so the list of people mentioned is a fact, of course you can draw your own conclusions from it, nothing to get upset about, but it is plain simply a fact.

[IJ Reilly]

One of the users (Pseudobrit) asked about "what names", so I responded. Anyway, I don't think it matters where the list comes from, my point is that there is an influential Jewish lobby in US government, so the list of people mentioned is a fact, of course you can draw your own conclusions from it, nothing to get upset about, but it is plain simply a fact.

He didn't ask for a list, he asked for evidence of your alleged "Jewish lobby" within the U.S. government, which requires much more than producing a list of names of Jewish people in government. This is nothing more than a kind of low-grade McCarthyism. In any event, the names are a fact, but your "Jewish lobby" is just as fictional as the "Catholic lobby." Yes, it does matter where you got the list. They are not compiled, and seen as meaningful, by rational people.

[blitzkrieg79]

He didn't ask for a list, he asked for evidence of your alleged "Jewish lobby" within the U.S. government, which requires much more than producing a list of names of Jewish people in government. This is nothing more than a kind of low-grade McCarthyism. In any event, the names are a fact, but your "Jewish lobby" is just as fictional as the "Catholic lobby." Yes, it does matter where you got the list. They are not compiled, and seen as meaningful, by rational people.

Questions, why is USA on Israeli side and not neutral like most of the EU? As I mentioned earlier, if USA likes to help out the underdogs so much, why they are so quiet about Chechenya or the Turkish-Armenian conflict (USA has been supporting Israel for over 50 years, the most interesting thing about it is that during pre-WW2 era Jewish community has been hated in USA as much as in most of Europe)? Israel has no oil, not much of an industry (yeah I know, Intel has their designers there), they have intelligent people but so does every country given proper education, they are too small of a country in a worldwide political scene to really matter but somehow they do matter. However Israels location for military purposes is very strategic for USA. As they have Middle-East, Russia, and North Africa nearby.

And I didn't even mention Holocaust but since you did, in USA when you ask most people what Holocaust was they will say the extermination of Jews but they definately weren't the only ones. Interesting website: http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/

[IJ Reilly]

Questions, why is USA on Israeli side and not neutral like most of the EU? As I mentioned earlier, if USA likes to help out the underdogs so much, why they are so quiet about Chechenya or the Turkish-Armenian conflict (USA has been supporting Israel for over 50 years, the most interesting thing about it is that during pre-WW2 era Jewish community has been hated in USA as much as in most of Europe)? Israel has no oil, not much of an industry (yeah I know, Intel has their designers there), they have intelligent people but so does every country given proper education, they are too small of a country in a worldwide political scene to really matter but somehow they do matter. However Israels location for military purposes is very strategic for USA. As they have Middle-East, Russia, and North Africa nearby.

I think you've answered your own question. Israel became an important a strategic partner in the Cold War in a region dominated by Soviet interests, particularly in Egypt and Syria. This remained the case at least until 1979, with the signing of the Camp David accords. I'd be careful about calling the EU "neutral" in the Middle Eastern conflicts. Many of the now-EU nations have long, complicated colonial histories in this region.

Volumes could be written on why any given nation choses to choses not to become involved in distant political matters. You're not going to find any easy answers, like "because this country has Jews and the other one doesn't."

And I didn't even mention Holocaust but since you did, in USA when you ask most people what Holocaust was they will say the extermination of Jews but they definately weren't the only ones. Interesting website: http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/

If they do, it's because they haven't educated themselves. Have you ever been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington? You'll find plenty of recognition there for the other groups who were targeted for extermination by Hitler. I only mentioned the Holocaust because Holocaust denial is a common thread through the groups that claim the existence of Jewish conspiracies.

[solvs]

It's very hard for me to become offended, but I'm officially done with this thread. And here I thought it would be filled with conspiracy theorists and nutjobs. :rolleyes: At least the puns stopped.

[Earendil]

I know why they released it now! Bush 's poll #s are rock bottom and we have a election coming. Time to sell that Fear,over and over so we feel better about this incompetant administration of spin. Fear! Fear! Fear! even 5 years later we still need to Fear.

I'm not going to read all 50 millions pages to see if someone else said this, but Bush has run his two terms, he can't run for re-elections.
Anything he does now is because he cares /doesn't care not becuase he's trying to get re-elected.

~Earendil

[mactastic]

I'm not going to read all 50 millions pages to see if someone else said this, but Bush has run his two terms, he can't run for re-elections.
Anything he does now is because he cares /doesn't care not becuase he's trying to get re-elected.

~Earendil
No, anything he does now is because he desperately doesn't want to spend the last two years of his presidency fighting congressional subpoenas.

This election is shaping up to be a referendum on Bush; just because he's not on the ballot doesn't mean he isn't campaigning.