Apple build quality and Outsourced labour (was: The Thermal Paste Fix)

[zorg]

We have all read that post on the re-application of the thermal paste, and how it cooled the MBP considerably. But my question is, why doesn't Apple do it? I mean, it is so easy! Just put less thermal paste on the MBP. This will save the paste, and cure the heat of the MBP. Why doesn't Apple do it!?!?

[Merlyn3D]

We have all read that post on the re-application of the thermal paste, and how it cooled the MBP considerably. But my question is, why doesn't Apple do it? I mean, it is so easy! Just put less thermal paste on the MBP. This will save the paste, and cure the heat of the MBP. Why doesn't Apple do it!?!?

If you think it's easy, you obviously haven't pulled apart and put back together this macbook pro. It's one of the toughest machines to do so with that I've come across in my career. You need to set aside at least 2 hours.

[zorg]

If you think it's easy, you obviously haven't pulled apart and put back together this macbook pro. It's one of the toughest machines to do so with that I've come across in my career. You need to set aside at least 2 hours.
Uh, when they are putting together the MBP at the factory, they put in the thermal paste. Why don't they put in less there and then, so you won't have to open it up...

[California]

This is a quality control issue at the factory level. I am still confused how an American company like Apple can expect 12 year old peasants in Chinese labor camps to come up to their high standards. How does one enforce this quality control legally? I don't know.

Apple would have to pay a manager, who in turn could not be bribed by the Chinese, to randomly inspect or no payment made to the factory. I don't understand international legalities of this, especialy since it seems these same factories are the ones counterfeiting Apple's iPods and shuffles at a frightening rate. But it is obvious that it is these factory "workers" (i.e. slaves) that are shooting thermal paste at the components like toothpaste or something. They probably think more is better, the physics of thermal cooling and heating are almost too much for me to understand, so I can't expect it of these 88 cent a day workers.

some other poster wrote that the reason Apple's laptops are having more problems than Dells or other PCraptops, is because Apple's designs are so much better, i.e. tighter and more cramped spaces inside. Therefore, heat issues are potentially so much more problematic.

I have a nagging suspicion that these heat issues go back to the Titianium Powerbooks. Just for history's sake, my 1994 145b Powerbook never got hot.

[Timepass]

again it is not a factor issue.

The is a design flaw and a design issue. The problem and the blame belong on apple engineering the labor is following the directoin which state to put that much paste on there causing the problem. Apple own manual state that. So I think the blame land on the apple engineering deparment not the factor or the labor which are just following directions from head quarters that stat to use that much paste.

[ManchesterTrix]

again it is not a factor issue.

The is a design flaw and a design issue. The problem and the blame belong on apple engineering the labor is following the directoin which state to put that much paste on there causing the problem. Apple own manual state that. So I think the blame land on the apple engineering deparment not the factor or the labor which are just following directions from head quarters that stat to use that much paste.

There's a slight logical fallacy there. The only manual anyone has seen is the technician manual. The Factory workers are not working from this manual. Now you can assume that whatever instructions they were given were also horrendously wrong, but it is still an assumption

[gekko513]

This is a quality control issue at the factory level. I am still confused how an American company like Apple can expect 12 year old peasants in Chinese labor camps to come up to their high standards. How does one enforce this quality control legally? I don't know.


Apple would have to pay a manager, who in turn could not be bribed by the Chinese, to randomly inspect or no payment made to the factory. I don't understand international legalities of this, especialy since it seems these same factories are the ones counterfeiting Apple's iPods and shuffles at a frightening rate. But it is obvious that it is these factory "workers" (i.e. slaves)...
Can I have some source for these "12 year old peasants" and factory "workers" (i.e. slaves)" claims, or are you just making it up as you go along?

Your tone comes off as condescending.

[Timepass]

There's a slight logical fallacy there. The only manual anyone has seen is the technician manual. The Factory workers are not working from this manual. Now you can assume that whatever instructions they were given were also horrendously wrong, but it is still an assumption


well if th technical manual has directions of using that much thermo paste it is safe to assume that the direction from the factor are using the same guild lines. If not then techincal manual is crap because techincal manual are there to make sure the computer is with in factor specs.

Face the fact Apple F-up

[Catfish_Man]

Can I have some source for these "12 year old peasants" and factory "workers" (i.e. slaves)" claims, or are you just making it up as you go along?

Your tone comes off as condescending.

It's an annoyingly common attitude these days.

Statement: Apple is flawless in all ways
Statement: Chinese people are incompetent/corrupt/evil
Conclusion: Chinese people are responsible for all Apple problems.

hooray for "logic" :rolleyes:

[blitzydog]

If you think it's easy, you obviously haven't pulled apart and put back together this macbook pro. It's one of the toughest machines to do so with that I've come across in my career. You need to set aside at least 2 hours.

Is the MacBook comparably difficult? If mine turns out to be a scorcher, I have half the mind of performing this fix.

[Merlyn3D]

Is the MacBook comparably difficult? If mine turns out to be a scorcher, I have half the mind of performing this fix.

It's not that it's hard so much as you have to make sure you have the correct tools and time to do so, and a patient hand.

[macenforcer]

I had a girlfriend whos mom was a total burnout loser. She landed a job at an electronics manufacturer in Florida. She was in charge of mainboards and assembly and such. She lost her job 2 yrs later when the company farmed out in asia. The thought of here building something electronic baffled me as she knew nothing about it whatsoever. I would say the asians or whoever is doing the building are doing a fine job. Its the americans that are lazy and mess things up. Americans bitch the whole time they are working, take 1 hr smoke breaks and bitch about every single thing at work. People that are working to stay alive follow the rules and shut their mouth.

Yes, I am an american. I know what I am talking about.

[California]

Can I have some source for these "12 year old peasants" and factory "workers" (i.e. slaves)" claims, or are you just making it up as you go along?

Your tone comes off as condescending.

My tone is not condescending, I am outraged. Most civilized governments outlawed child labor laws as well as institued fair labor laws about one hundred years ago. I am outraged at the rank American greed and the sickening Chinese totatliarian attitude towards their billions of people.

Maybe you didn't mean "condescending" or maybe you don't realize that the same government that slaughtered millions from 1949 to the Tianemman Square massacre is still the same government in power in Beijing?

Uh, they are commies economically and oligarch totalitarians governmentallly. Or didn't you read about the NYorkTimes reporter the Chinese threw in jail last week for simply stating the truth? Or how Google and Yahoo have been greedily in cahoots with the ChiComs to spy on emails so that they can throw more people in jail for trying to have freedom of speech?

I'm outraged at this primitive 19th Century authoritarian Marxism.

So, if I am a bit less than appreciative of the labor laws in China when they are building Apple computers -- and at the same time counterfeiting Apple products -- I'd be really really really surprised if Jobs knew how to keep quality control in Chinese factories. The Chinese have even counterfeited Mercedes cars!

All I am saying is that if you want cheep cheep cheep labor in the cheep cheep cheep Chinese countryside, I'll be dang surprised if our MacBooks have the right amount of thermal paste on them. And I don't think there are any international laws that Apple can easily fall back upon to institute better quality control. I'm not condesending, I'm freaked out that people like you in the EU seem to project upon China that they are somehow more "moral" in their business practices and labor laws and respect for human rights than other western countries. Especially if you know how much blood Mao and the Gang of Four really shed. THIS IS THE SAME GOVERNMENT THAT MAO STARTED! And Apple and other industries think they can do normal business with them? What a laugh. No wonder our MacBooks heat up.

[gekko513]

You're entitled to your opinion, but keep it to the political forum and keep it out of the Macintosh Computers forum.

[California]

It's an annoyingly common attitude these days.

Statement: Apple is flawless in all ways
Statement: Chinese people are incompetent/corrupt/evil
Conclusion: Chinese people are responsible for all Apple problems.

hooray for "logic" :rolleyes:

Excuse me, I don't have any gripe at all against Chinese people. I have a gripe against the Chinese "government" -- the same government Mao started in the 1940's. The same government responsible for millions slaughtered in Mao's "Cultural Revolution" and the Tianneman Square massacre. Apple and other companies think that they can do business as usual with this primitive totalitarian state that has no real freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, no private property rights, no freedom of political affiliation... etc. So quit going all PC on me for no reason -- Apple of all companies should not be entrusting their designs to this country that has no respect for intellectual property rights and seems to think that they can just rip off iPods and Hondas with abandon, to the West's detriment.

Excuse me if I question the wisdom of letting their factory laborers, who LIVE at the factory by the way after their 18 hour workday -- may not have the nuanced understanding of why CPUs need only a tiny dollop of thermal paste.

The Chinese government, with it's millions of people slaughtered at their own hands, IS evil. Their people are NOT. Poor, ignorant and bereft of basic human rights, they are, but not evil. And their government and our industries are using them as slave labor to "do the jobs Americans don't want to do..."

[California]

You're entitled to your opinion, but keep it to the political forum and keep it out of the Macintosh Computers forum.

Sorry, I just didn't understand why I was called condescending. If you want statistics, get THE BLACK BOOK OF COMMUNISM pulbished in France in 2000, in the UK and US in 2002, I believe. Scary book.

[cruxed]

It's an annoyingly common attitude these days.

Statement: Apple is flawless in all ways
Statement: Chinese people are incompetent/corrupt/evil
Conclusion: Chinese people are responsible for all Apple problems.

hooray for "logic" :rolleyes:

Yes, I am extremely sick of hearing these comments.

I'm Chinese, though I dont live on the mainland. Instead, I live in Hong Kong where probably 99% of our products are manufactured in China.
It's time to cut that belief that Chinese people have low standards and that Apple is flawless. Have you ever thought of the fact that maybe the problem boils down to Apple itself? And not the Chinese?

Anyways, just my rant.

[California]

Yes, I am extremely sick of hearing these comments.

I'm Chinese, though I dont live on the mainland. Instead, I live in Hong Kong where probably 99% of our products are manufactured in China.
It's time to cut that belief that Chinese people have low standards and that Apple is flawless. Have you ever thought of the fact that maybe the problem boils down to Apple itself? And not the Chinese?

Anyways, just my rant.

I don't know what language you guys are reading. But I'm writing in plain English and saying this has NOTHING TO DO with the Chinese people. Nada. Nothing.

I don't think the Chinese people have low standards. I just don't think they have basic human rights which infringes upon the ability to think creatively.

The Chinese government and greedy Western businessmen, on the other hand, I have a problem with. Stealing by the Chinese government of intellectual property and trying to squeeze Chinese laborers for every penny by Western businesses are both wrong, sickeningly wrong.

[THX1139]

My tone is not condescending, I am outraged. bla bla bla.... or maybe you don't realize that the same government that slaughtered millions from 1949 to the Tianemman Square massacre ....and bla bla bla..... throw more people in jail for trying to have freedom of speech?

I'm outraged ...and more bla bla bla.... cheep cheep cheep labor in the cheep cheep cheep Chinese countryside, ....


Uh, looks like someone is off topic. Excuse me while I go vomit.

[skunk]

I had a girlfriend whos mom was a total burnout loser. She landed a job at an electronics manufacturer in Florida. She was in charge of mainboards and assembly and such. She lost her job 2 yrs later when the company farmed out in asia. The thought of here building something electronic baffled me as she knew nothing about it whatsoever. I would say the asians or whoever is doing the building are doing a fine job. Its the americans that are lazy and mess things up. Americans bitch the whole time they are working, take 1 hr smoke breaks and bitch about every single thing at work. People that are working to stay alive follow the rules and shut their mouth.

Yes, I am an american. I know what I am talking about.Thank you for that. There's been an awful lot of racist rubbish spouted on this subject.

[skunk]

I don't think the Chinese people have low standards. I just don't think they have basic human rights which infringes upon the ability to think creatively.1 Since when did human rights or lack of them impinge on creativity?
2 Since when did creativity help with following instructions?
3 The amount of paste applied is fully in line with Apple's published specifications.
4 Ergo, this is not a QC problem.

[j26]

My tone is not condescending, I am outraged. Most civilized governments outlawed child labor laws as well as institued fair labor laws about one hundred years ago. I am outraged at the rank American greed and the sickening Chinese totatliarian attitude towards their billions of people.
Actually China is trying to clean things up, and child labour is an issue in the US too
"The United States is one of only two countries in the world that have not ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC). Somalia—a country without an internationally-recognized government—is the other."
Source (http://www.hrw.org/children/us.htm)

Maybe you didn't mean "condescending" or maybe you don't realize that the same government that slaughtered millions from 1949 to the Tianemman Square massacre is still the same government in power in Beijing?
The US has been involved in the slaughter of almost 1m Vietnamese, tens of thousands of Iraqis and many other interventions. Britain has been involved in massacres. Russia has been involved in massacres. Even little old Ireland has been involved in atocities (especially during our civil war). Most countries have a past they'd rather forget about.

Uh, they are commies economically and oligarch totalitarians governmentallly. Or didn't you read about the NYorkTimes reporter the Chinese threw in jail last week for simply stating the truth? Or how Google and Yahoo have been greedily in cahoots with the ChiComs to spy on emails so that they can throw more people in jail for trying to have freedom of speech?
Have to agree with you on freedom of expression, but that's nothing to do with the quality of Apple manufacturing facilities, is it?

I'm outraged at this primitive 19th Century authoritarian Marxism.
It's actually mid 20th Century Maoism - Marxism is predicated on an urban industrialised society, not a massive rural agrarian one (as it was at the time in China)

So, if I am a bit less than appreciative of the labor laws in China when they are building Apple computers -- and at the same time counterfeiting Apple products -- I'd be really really really surprised if Jobs knew how to keep quality control in Chinese factories. The Chinese have even counterfeited Mercedes cars!
And Creative are suing Apple for knocking off their ideas and Apple are countersuing Creative for the same thing - people knock off each others ideas. That's not a Chinese trait, that's human. It just happens to be cheaper in China.

All I am saying is that if you want cheep cheep cheep labor in the cheep cheep cheep Chinese countryside, I'll be dang surprised if our MacBooks have the right amount of thermal paste on them. And I don't think there are any international laws that Apple can easily fall back upon to institute better quality control. I'm not condesending, I'm freaked out that people like you in the EU seem to project upon China that they are somehow more "moral" in their business practices and labor laws and respect for human rights than other western countries. Especially if you know how much blood Mao and the Gang of Four really shed. THIS IS THE SAME GOVERNMENT THAT MAO STARTED! And Apple and other industries think they can do normal business with them? What a laugh. No wonder our MacBooks heat up.
The law that Apple can fall back on is the contract - you don't perform you don't get the business.
And heat seems to be particular to Apple - what about all of the other pc's that are manufactured in China?


Christ, I hate racism masquerading as reasoned argument.

[jacobj]

This is a quality control issue at the factory level. I am still confused how an American company like Apple can expect 12 year old peasants in Chinese labor camps to come up to their high standards. How does one enforce this quality control legally? I don't know.

Apple would have to pay a manager, who in turn could not be bribed by the Chinese, to randomly inspect or no payment made to the factory. I don't understand international legalities of this, especialy since it seems these same factories are the ones counterfeiting Apple's iPods and shuffles at a frightening rate. But it is obvious that it is these factory "workers" (i.e. slaves) that are shooting thermal paste at the components like toothpaste or something. They probably think more is better, the physics of thermal cooling and heating are almost too much for me to understand, so I can't expect it of these 88 cent a day workers.

some other poster wrote that the reason Apple's laptops are having more problems than Dells or other PCraptops, is because Apple's designs are so much better, i.e. tighter and more cramped spaces inside. Therefore, heat issues are potentially so much more problematic.

I have a nagging suspicion that these heat issues go back to the Titianium Powerbooks. Just for history's sake, my 1994 145b Powerbook never got hot.

I love the misconception you have of Chinese factories. You are right that standards may not be up to those of some parts of the western hemisphere and that worker's rights are less of an issue, but the image you portray is one of Orwellian abuse.

Is your intention to make is sound awful so as to make a point that Apple cannot expect quality? If so then you are using hyperbole in such a way is repulsive.

Edit: in addition, do you imagine that western factory workers are well educated? I think you paint and idealistic picture of the US and its population and if I offend your sensibilities then consider those of others.

[jacobj]

Maybe you didn't mean "condescending" or maybe you don't realize that the same government that slaughtered millions from 1949 to the Tianemman Square massacre is still the same government in power in Beijing?

Uh, they are commies economically and oligarch totalitarians governmentallly. Or didn't you read about the NYorkTimes reporter the Chinese threw in jail last week for simply stating the truth? Or how Google and Yahoo have been greedily in cahoots with the ChiComs to spy on emails so that they can throw more people in jail for trying to have freedom of speech?

I'm outraged at this primitive 19th Century authoritarian Marxism.

So, if I am a bit less than appreciative of the labor laws in China when they are building Apple computers -- and at the same time counterfeiting Apple products -- I'd be really really really surprised if Jobs knew how to keep quality control in Chinese factories. The Chinese have even counterfeited Mercedes cars!

All I am saying is that if you want cheep cheep cheep labor in the cheep cheep cheep Chinese countryside, I'll be dang surprised if our MacBooks have the right amount of thermal paste on them. And I don't think there are any international laws that Apple can easily fall back upon to institute better quality control. I'm not condesending, I'm freaked out that people like you in the EU seem to project upon China that they are somehow more "moral" in their business practices and labor laws and respect for human rights than other western countries. Especially if you know how much blood Mao and the Gang of Four really shed. THIS IS THE SAME GOVERNMENT THAT MAO STARTED! And Apple and other industries think they can do normal business with them? What a laugh. No wonder our MacBooks heat up.

You are proof positive that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Put simply, China has a plan of long term reform. The truth is that the Tianemman square massacre prevented an overnight revolution that would have resulted in turmoil, disarray and death on a massive scale. This may be hugely controversial, but the Tianemman decision was made by a Utilitarian Chinese government and not the barbarians you see them for.

I am not saying that I liked that decision, but at least don't display ignorance and believe that it was the decision of a totalitarian government holding on to power for the sake of it.

[bigandy]

something's making me think this thread shouldn't be called the "thermal paste fix"....

yes, there's a paste problem.

no, it's not been entirely dealt with yet.

no, none of us know the exact source of the fault.

so, let's stop bitching at each other for being racist and just hope that apple sort any problem with it soon.

[fatties]

Excuse me, I don't have any gripe at all against Chinese people. I have a gripe against the Chinese "government" -- the same government Mao started in the 1940's. The same government responsible for millions slaughtered in Mao's "Cultural Revolution" and the Tianneman Square massacre. Apple and other companies think that they can do business as usual with this primitive totalitarian state that has no real freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, no private property rights, no freedom of political affiliation... etc. So quit going all PC on me for no reason -- Apple of all companies should not be entrusting their designs to this country that has no respect for intellectual property rights and seems to think that they can just rip off iPods and Hondas with abandon, to the West's detriment.

Excuse me if I question the wisdom of letting their factory laborers, who LIVE at the factory by the way after their 18 hour workday -- may not have the nuanced understanding of why CPUs need only a tiny dollop of thermal paste.

The Chinese government, with it's millions of people slaughtered at their own hands, IS evil. Their people are NOT. Poor, ignorant and bereft of basic human rights, they are, but not evil. And their government and our industries are using them as slave labor to "do the jobs Americans don't want to do..."

ahh life is so amazing with the incredible ability to look at things from a "better world" isn't it... i mean someone can also just say america is evil because bush invaded iraq and look at the mess they are in now? how many people were bombed yesterday?

the sad fact is, something can be very wrong even when you are experiencing, it but there is nothing you can do about it. its the sad nature of the world even in the most 'democratic' of countries, decisions can still be made on behalf of you that is wrong (the iraq war, the afhganaistan (sorry can't spell it) war, the kyoto agreement anyone?) and the fact that these things are made in china is because if it is made in darling california (by the amazing geniuses that are employed in the apple camp) these machines will not be sold at the prices they are sold... a mac book pro for like 2000 bucks anyone?? and people are upset that a mac book now start at 1,099 instead of 999... don't blame other governments (ok they are also in the wrong) when it could quite possibly be ourselves that started this problem. our desire for 'cheap/ reasonably priced' things is what makes people work 18 hours day.

may be apple can come up with a fairtrade option... i am sure people will pay a 200 buck premium on top of that 200 premium for a black mb knowing that your little "14 year old slave" is getting treated right and thermal grease is lovingly applied onto the parts.

last little interesting thing... you know that many european intellectuals during what we call the "rise of modernism" also believed in uber- nationalism, that got hijacked by some nut and then went horrifically wrong and is what we now call the holocaust? (check it out, its at the v and a right this second!) it is only with hindsight that we see what is wrong with ideas... and that is one luxury that we should be so glad to have.

and for the elbow grease or whatever we have to apply or not apply ourselves, if you really do feel so strongly that either chinese people or the chinese goverment are so crap, then do it thinking what a better place it is if you were the poor sod having to make these computers 24/7/365. you probably hate it so much you want itto blow up on whoever buys one. in the age of conveyor belt/ industrial production, there is no such thing as pride of product, because well, you never do see the product do you?

[steelfist]

please, please lets not babble about countries, low salery workers, china, and that kind of stuff.

it IS true that apple has been lazy on quality control, and have been falling a bit for "it's good enough" kind of way.

apple can fix the problems, which from a buisness perspective, is not worth doing. whill the purchases jump because of better thermal paste? most people will buy a computer, then spot the problems, they already bought it, and for most buisnesses, that's what counts. therefore it's not worth the effort. that's what i think.

I thought machines built macbooks. how do humans contribute to the production of apple computers? if it is only from machines, some tweaking would help a lot.

[WinterMute]

Apologies to the OP, but this is so far off topic it's outsourced itself straight to the political forum.

Besides there are already a series of threads about the thermal paste problem.

[skunk]

Well that didn't take long.

[thegreatluke]

My tone is not condescending, I am outraged. Most civilized governments outlawed child labor laws as well as institued fair labor laws about one hundred years ago. I am outraged at the rank American greed and the sickening Chinese totatliarian attitude towards their billions of people.

Maybe you didn't mean "condescending" or maybe you don't realize that the same government that slaughtered millions from 1949 to the Tianemman Square massacre is still the same government in power in Beijing?

Uh, they are commies economically and oligarch totalitarians governmentallly. Or didn't you read about the NYorkTimes reporter the Chinese threw in jail last week for simply stating the truth? Or how Google and Yahoo have been greedily in cahoots with the ChiComs to spy on emails so that they can throw more people in jail for trying to have freedom of speech?

I'm outraged at this primitive 19th Century authoritarian Marxism.

So, if I am a bit less than appreciative of the labor laws in China when they are building Apple computers -- and at the same time counterfeiting Apple products -- I'd be really really really surprised if Jobs knew how to keep quality control in Chinese factories. The Chinese have even counterfeited Mercedes cars!

All I am saying is that if you want cheep cheep cheep labor in the cheep cheep cheep Chinese countryside, I'll be dang surprised if our MacBooks have the right amount of thermal paste on them. And I don't think there are any international laws that Apple can easily fall back upon to institute better quality control. I'm not condesending, I'm freaked out that people like you in the EU seem to project upon China that they are somehow more "moral" in their business practices and labor laws and respect for human rights than other western countries. Especially if you know how much blood Mao and the Gang of Four really shed. THIS IS THE SAME GOVERNMENT THAT MAO STARTED! And Apple and other industries think they can do normal business with them? What a laugh. No wonder our MacBooks heat up.
Wow.

Just because someone uses Chinese labor doesn't mean he or she is using slave labor or child labor or even child slave labor.

There are many well-paid, well-treated workers in China.

And knowing Steve Job's personality, I don't think he'd allow something like that to happen.

[Boggle]

I had a girlfriend whos mom was a total burnout loser. She landed a job at an electronics manufacturer in Florida. She was in charge of mainboards and assembly and such. She lost her job 2 yrs later when the company farmed out in asia. The thought of here building something electronic baffled me as she knew nothing about it whatsoever. I would say the asians or whoever is doing the building are doing a fine job. Its the americans that are lazy and mess things up. Americans bitch the whole time they are working, take 1 hr smoke breaks and bitch about every single thing at work. People that are working to stay alive follow the rules and shut their mouth.

Yes, I am an american. I know what I am talking about.

You have zero idea what you're talking about. You just made a horrendous sweeping generalization about a workforce of over 135 million people supported only by your opinion of an ex-girlfriend's mother. The single largest factor in the exportation of factory work is NOT unit production per hour, but labor cost per unit production. An US workforce will usually out-produce even the best European production team. Mostly b/c of the financial incentives (enjoyed by US workers) and lack of extensive time off (enjoyed by most European workers). A notable exception is Ship Building. The scandanavians are completely dominant in that industry. However, the human cost per unit produced in the US is approximately 20 TIMES the human cost of unit produced in China (And 6 times European costs btw), according to the National Labor Committee. -- e.g. A Sony Cyber-shot digital camera costs 18 cents in labor in the Phillipeans, making the same product in a US factory w/ US hourly wages would cost almost $6.00 in just labor / per unit (ibid).

Therefore, until a US crew can produce 20 times as many products (actually far more than that b/c of higher costs of US construction, maintainance, OSHA regulations, Federal, State, County, & municipal regualtion fees & taxes) per hour; it's simply not cost effective for a company to attempt to build affordable electronic equipment in the USA.

So unless you'd like your iPod to cost $900 b/c the Local United Brotherhood of iPod assemblers demand full medical & dental on top of $22/hr so that the average father can afford to buy food, gas, and little league uniforms, while his wife takes care of their three children in the suburbs of Kansas City; be damn happy you can afford to buy the product. And do the entire US workforce a favor and stop pontificating about how lazy we all are when you are so stunningly ignorant of the facts.

[IJ Reilly]

You are proof positive that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Put simply, China has a plan of long term reform. The truth is that the Tianemman square massacre prevented an overnight revolution that would have resulted in turmoil, disarray and death on a massive scale. This may be hugely controversial, but the Tianemman decision was made by a Utilitarian Chinese government and not the barbarians you see them for.

I am not saying that I liked that decision, but at least don't display ignorance and believe that it was the decision of a totalitarian government holding on to power for the sake of it.

Speaking of a little dangerous knowledge, before you talk about the "good" that came of the Tiananmen Square massacre, you might take about an hour of your time to watch this excellent Frontline documentary (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/view/). It turns out, China's "reform" policy is to depopulate the rural areas by denying them basic services, such as education and health care, thus creating an endless supply of cheap, disposable labor for the growing industries in the cities.

[zap2]

I had a girlfriend whos mom was a total burnout loser. She landed a job at an electronics manufacturer in Florida. She was in charge of mainboards and assembly and such. She lost her job 2 yrs later when the company farmed out in asia. The thought of here building something electronic baffled me as she knew nothing about it whatsoever. I would say the asians or whoever is doing the building are doing a fine job. Its the americans that are lazy and mess things up. Americans bitch the whole time they are working, take 1 hr smoke breaks and bitch about every single thing at work. People that are working to stay alive follow the rules and shut their mouth.

Yes, I am an american. I know what I am talking about.

To be honest to say it either ONE groups fault would be a flat out lie, some times its both partys fault, to just blame american or the Chinese would be stupid

[XNine]

getting back on topic.....

I DO think the Chinese are putting too much thermal paste in these machines. However, I DON'T think they're doing it to be lazy, to screw American consumers, or just to be nasty. They're doing it because that's what Apple's specifications were from their engineers.

The Chinese shouldn't be the only ones labeled as screw ups when it comes to assembly. Ever drive a Ford, Chevy, or GM? They're crappy cars because of crappy engineering, parts manufacturing, and parts usage. They purposely use crappy parts so that you continually have to pay for servicing and parts. I don't think it's the assembly workers fault that the company's specs suck. They do their job which is to assemble how and what they're told to.

And a lot of these assembly workers are protected by Unions. Take Carrier (HVAC company) for example. A lot of their assembly workers are making 15 bucks or more an hour. And that's in INDIANA where cost of living is extremely low, thus extremely low wages for most of the populace. It's not very often when there's a manufacturer's defect on something, like a bad weld joint or something. It's usually a crappy part that the company's engineers chose to install.

EDIT: Zap2, I didn't mean you were off-topic, I was writing and smoking and doing other things while you posted, please don't take it wrong. :)

[ManchesterTrix]

And a lot of these assembly workers are protected by Unions. Take Carrier (HVAC company) for example. A lot of their assembly workers are making 15 bucks or more an hour. And that's in INDIANA where cost of living is extremely low, thus extremely low wages for most of the populace. It's not very often when there's a manufacturer's defect on something, like a bad weld joint or something. It's usually a crappy part that the company's engineers chose to install.

15/hour is 31,200/year. The average Wage in Indiana in 2002 was 31,975.

[California]

1 Since when did human rights or lack of them impinge on creativity?

Uh, how much creative work was done in German concentration camps? You need freedom to create. If you have oppression, you might improvise, but the Soviet Union and her slave blocs weren't known for creative excellence in the marketplace or military. You limit freedoms, you limit the individualistic and creative mind. Ever buy a pair of Soviet era shoes or car? Yeah... they didn't want to wear or drive them either.


2 Since when did creativity help with following instructions?

Huh? What are you talking about here?

[California]

The Chinese shouldn't be the only ones labeled as screw ups when it comes to assembly. Ever drive a Ford, Chevy, or GM? They're crappy cars because of crappy engineering, parts manufacturing, and parts usage. :)

GM does not make copies of CHinese cars and try to cash in on the good Chinese brand name without paying off the patent owners. At least GM cars are really GM cars. Not counterfeits. Search out the Chinese counterfeiting articles on Digg.

My point was not about native Chinese talent. My point was that the Chinese government is STEALING intellectual property by turning a blind eye to the billions and billions of counterfeit goods coming out of China. I heard one Chinese counterfeiter was so good at being a JVC component manufactuer, that JVC actually struck a deal with them.

My other point was that this is obviously where Apple's components are being counterfeited, and this is where an awful lot of Apple's computers and iPods are being manufactured. Oppressed workers in an authoritarian society without human rights, of any ethnicity, are not going to be the best workers. People work better if you pay them for what they are really worth, not under the pain of the lash.

[California]

Speaking of a little dangerous knowledge, before you talk about the "good" that came of the Tiananmen Square massacre, you might take about an hour of your time to watch this excellent Frontline documentary (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/view/)..You are proof positive that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Put simply, China has a plan of long term reform. The truth is that the Tianemman square massacre prevented an overnight revolution that would have resulted in turmoil, disarray and death on a massive scale. This may be hugely controversial, but the Tianemman decision was made by a Utilitarian Chinese government and not the barbarians you see them for.

I am not saying that I liked that decision, but at least don't display ignorance and believe that it was the decision of a totalitarian government holding on to power for the sake of it.
Actually, I was paid back in the early 90's to write about the Tiannamen Square massacre, and no amount of FrontLine agiprop (I know some writers there, too) can convince me that running over people with tanks because they propped up their own Statue of Liberty in the hopes of getting freedom of speech, freedom of religion freedom of the press, freedom of political associations and THE RIGHT TO VOTE in a free election was anything but governmental murder. The political ends never justify the murderous means, but this has been the problem in China -- they have slaughtered millions upon millions of their own people in the name of "reform".

The figure is something like 20 million dead since Mao.

And don't give me the argument that the U.S. kills people -- in wartime. The US does not line up its own people for "bad thoughts against the government" and machine gun them into trenches. Yeah. That's what the whole Cultural Revolution in China was all about.

And the west is trying to do business as usual with this same Chinese government.

Our greed at their potential consumer base is astonishing.

[XNine]

People work better if you pay them for what they are really worth, not under the pain of the lash.

Oh, I think the Chinese workers work just fine considering they don't want to die.

I'm not disagreeing here. But the political stature of China was not the primary concern of this topic. The Thermal Paste on the computers made by outsourced labor was. And all I'm saying is that the Chinese workers aren't at fault, it's the engineer's specifications that are at fault.

[pseudobrit]

The figure is something like 20 million dead since Mao.

Try 100 million.

[California]

And all I'm saying is that the Chinese workers aren't at fault, it's the engineer's specifications that are at fault. That's been dismissed as a possibility in another thread because it was a technician's handbook, not quality control. The only reason I brought up Chinese Marxist sins against her own people is that there is no way that a Western company like Apple can use labor laws or international laws to make quality control better. That is the problem with outsourcing to cheap Asian factories. How would someone there be arrested for counterfeiting US stuff? How would someone there be reprimanded for making bad MacBooks? Legal problem that is not really balanced by money saved by manufacture in China in the long run. Apple loses billions in counterfeits and loses consumer confidence due to bad quality control. Better to have the Apple factory in the West.

[IJ Reilly]

Actually, I was paid back in the early 90's to write about the Tiannamen Square massacre, and no amount of FrontLine agiprop (I know some writers there, too) can convince me that running over people with tanks because they propped up their own Statue of Liberty in the hopes of getting freedom of speech, freedom of religion freedom of the press, freedom of political associations and THE RIGHT TO VOTE in a free election was anything but governmental murder. The political ends never justify the murderous means, but this has been the problem in China -- they have slaughtered millions upon millions of their own people in the name of "reform".

Speaking of agitprop, did you actually follow the link, or read my post? I assume you must have done at least the latter, since you quoted it back. So surely you must have known that this documentary did just the opposite of what you suggest. That is why I cited it.

[California]

Speaking of agitprop, did you actually follow the link, or read my post? I assume you must have done at least the latter, since you quoted it back. So surely you must have known that this documentary did just the opposite of what you suggest. That is why I cited it.

I didn't click on the link this morning and I did misstate things if Frontline correctly nailed the Chinese government for their criminal actions in Tiannamen Square.

Sorry, I'll watch it soon.

[IJ Reilly]

I didn't click on the link this morning and I did misstate things if Frontline correctly nailed the Chinese government for their criminal actions in Tiannamen Square.

Sorry, I'll watch it soon.

The documentary begins with the democracy movement and how the government put it down, and uses the unknown fate of the iconic "tank man" as a vehicle for exploring what has occurred in China since 1989. It was through this documentary that I first began to fully appreciate the cynical methods the Chinese government is employing to produce their "economic miracle." It left me feeling that in 10-20 years China could well face an unrest crisis which could dwarf the Tiannamen Square protests.

[XNine]

That's been dismissed as a possibility in another thread because it was a technician's handbook, not quality control. The only reason I brought up Chinese Marxist sins against her own people is that there is no way that a Western company like Apple can use labor laws or international laws to make quality control better. That is the problem with outsourcing to cheap Asian factories. How would someone there be arrested for counterfeiting US stuff? How would someone there be reprimanded for making bad MacBooks? Legal problem that is not really balanced by money saved by manufacture in China in the long run. Apple loses billions in counterfeits and loses consumer confidence due to bad quality control. Better to have the Apple factory in the West.

IF Apple were truly losing BILLIONS as you say they are because of the Chinese, I don't think they would house some of their manufacturing in that country.

But now we're losing focus of the true intent of this thread because of political diatribes.

[jacobj]

Uh, how much creative work was done in German concentration camps? You need freedom to create. If you have oppression, you might improvise, but the Soviet Union and her slave blocs weren't known for creative excellence in the marketplace or military. You limit freedoms, you limit the individualistic and creative mind. Ever buy a pair of Soviet era shoes or car? Yeah... they didn't want to wear or drive them either.



Huh? What are you talking about here?

Sputnik and first man in space. How limited was their imagination. Oppression can stimulate the imagination. Not to say that oppression is right, only that your argument is wrong. Read Borokowski or Levi and you will see that imagination is not dead under oppression. In fact it is often the only sanctuary of the sane.

[jacobj]

Actually, I was paid back in the early 90's to write about the Tiannamen Square massacre, and no amount of FrontLine agiprop (I know some writers there, too) can convince me that running over people with tanks because they propped up their own Statue of Liberty in the hopes of getting freedom of speech, freedom of religion freedom of the press, freedom of political associations and THE RIGHT TO VOTE in a free election was anything but governmental murder. The political ends never justify the murderous means, but this has been the problem in China -- they have slaughtered millions upon millions of their own people in the name of "reform".

The figure is something like 20 million dead since Mao.

And don't give me the argument that the U.S. kills people -- in wartime. The US does not line up its own people for "bad thoughts against the government" and machine gun them into trenches. Yeah. That's what the whole Cultural Revolution in China was all about.

And the west is trying to do business as usual with this same Chinese government.

Our greed at their potential consumer base is astonishing.

It is naive to believe that freedom of speech wins any moral argument or that killing is always wrong. The reasons behind any actions are what must be judged and not the outcome.

The reasons the US went to war in Iraq was greed and that is wrong. China is not the same country as it was under Mao. The idealism died as did it in Russia after the passing of Lenin. Your ignorance is astounding and typically that of the narrow minded self-righteous educated middle class. You have facts but no insight.

[zimv20]

Oppression can stimulate the imagination.
dostoevsky, tchaikovsky, prokofiev, the best ballet in the world... the list goes on. creativity is driven by desire. what one's government is doing can only inform the work.

i call BS on california on his racism.

[California]

Sputnik and first man in space. How limited was their imagination. Oppression can stimulate the imagination. Not to say that oppression is right, only that your argument is wrong. Read Borokowski or Levi and you will see that imagination is not dead under oppression. In fact it is often the only sanctuary of the sane.

The Soviets captured Nazi rocket scientists after WWII when Alger Hiss spied for Stalin at Yalta and they carved up and then occupied Germany/Berlin. The space age "edge" on the U.S. was as short lived as their German scientists. Granted, the USSR also sank most of their ill-gotten resources into military (i.e. space) spending and took us by surprise. However, Khruschev showed his true colors by 1959 when he refused to believe that most Americans had washers and dryers in their private homes - and when he visited the U.S. in the same year he was flabbergasted at the US's wealth and agriculture from his visits to Disneyland and the Idaho potato fields. He thought the vast beet and potato farms were fake mock-ups.

So the USSR's advances in rocketry were really only their ill gotten gains in the spoils of WWII. It advanced their knowledge of ballistic missiles, but they still relied upon industrial and military thievery, not native creativity, in their Air Force and military. (Note all the Cold War era Soviet planes were copies of US planes. Reverse engineering. )

On the home front, there were long queues for even the most mundane goods and services, save maybe Vodka and caviar. This all from a country that had more natural resources than all of North American combined. Stalin raped and murdered the Kulacks in the 20's because they dared to farm without wanting governmental control, destroying the USSR's ability to ever make its own bread to feed her own people again. By the 1970's President Carter still had to provide wheat to Russia because their people were still in a post WWII survival mode. Lots of missiles, no food.

As for USSR creativity, maybe I'll give you Solzenitsin. i loved "One Day In The Life of Ivan Denisovich", an account of life in a Soviet gulag in the 1950's. Oppression is not the sanctuary for the sane, tho creativity under oppressoin may be. However, Stalin shot so many writers during the 1930's in show trials that we'll never know what may have written. In their stead, we have Orwell to remind us of Marxism's horrorshows. "Darkness at Noon" is another goodie.

[skunk]

The Soviets captured Nazi rocket scientists after WWII Where did Werner Von Braun come from?

[California]

It is naive to believe that freedom of speech wins any moral argument or that killing is always wrong.

Uh, you ever read the Declaration of Independence, the Magna Carta or the US Constitution? All just governments derive their powers from the free will of the governed. Once you break that pact, as China does repeatedly, you no longer even have a legitimate government. This is why China was not recognized until the 70's.

Killing is not always wrong. Murder is always wrong. People kill in a war, but governments like China cold bloodedly and systematically murdered millions and millions of their own people for political reasons so they could stay in power.

As for "idealism dying along with Lenin" -- Lenin died in 1925. Mao didn't complete a communist takeover until 1949. I'm curious as to what Trotsky fake "idealism" you think Lenin had to offer? Dictatorship of the proletariat is still a dictatorship. And a totalitarian one at that. The free West shed its blood for the freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of the press and the will of a free people to elect their own representatives. You wanna go back to Animal Farm for some supposed idealism -- in a world where you cannot speak freely, think freely or vote at all?

Do you know the origin of the phrase "politically incorrect" came from the old Soviet Union and Mao's China? Where you could, indeed, be arrested for being against Stalin/Mao/Lenin -- you could be arrested just for thinking "politically incorrect". (This is where Philip Dick got his idea in the early fifties when he wrote the short story for MINORITY REPORT, btw)

[skunk]

Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about the application of thermal paste. Quality Control in a Chinese factory need be no worse than in the US or anywhere else: if they don't get it right, they lose the contract, so the incentives are no different. If the amount of TP is as specified by Apple, it's not even a QC issue. What has their nationality or the political colour of their government got to do with it?

[pseudobrit]

As for USSR creativity, maybe I'll give you Solzenitsin. i loved "One Day In The Life of Ivan Denisovich", an account of life in a Soviet gulag in the 1950's.

If you've got the time and patience, Solzhenitsyn's Red Wheel series is gripping. The First Circle is good as a standalone novel, and The Gulag Archipelago is as complete an account of Soviet prisons as one could ask for.

Let's also not forget Shostakovich. His fourth ballet suite can blow you away in less than 20 minutes, and the allegro non troppo movement of his 8th symphony has brought tears to my eyes.

The MiG-29 is about as robust a vehicle as one could ask for; where F16s and F15s need a smooth, clean runway inspected for debris every morning, this thing was made to takeoff and land on mud airstrips.

Maybe they didn't have a chicken in every pot, but the system didn't make them stupid automatons.

[skunk]

Uh, you ever read the Declaration of Independence, the Magna Carta or the US Constitution? All just governments derive their powers from the free will of the governed. Once you break that pact, as China does repeatedly, you no longer even have a legitimate government. This is why China was not recognized until the 70's.Bollocks. What about Russia? Pakistan? What about the countless dictators, despots and military governments that the West has supported and armed? Are our governments "just"?
Killing is not always wrong. Murder is always wrong. People kill in a war, but governments like China cold bloodedly and systematically murdered millions and millions of their own people for political reasons so they could stay in power.How about killing in an unjust war waged for political or economic gain? Is that OK with you?

[IJ Reilly]

(Note all the Cold War era Soviet planes were copies of US planes. Reverse engineering. )

This is an overly-broad statement, and like most overly-broad statements, it is inaccurate. Military aircraft tend to be superficially similar to their opposing counterparts because they serve similar missions and their development follows the same advances in aeronautical technology, but that does not make them "reverse engineered" or "copies." The Soviet military aircraft designers were pretty good in their day, and developed unique airframes of their own. For example, I challenge you to tell me what U.S. aircraft the Soviets "copied" to design the Su-27.

[California]

If you've got the time and patience, Solzhenitsyn's Red Wheel series is gripping. The First Circle is good as a standalone novel, and The Gulag Archipelago is as complete an account of Soviet prisons as one could ask for.

Let's also not forget Shostakovich. His fourth ballet suite can blow you away in less than 20 minutes, and the allegro non troppo movement of his 8th symphony has brought tears to my eyes.

The MiG-29 is about as robust a vehicle as one could ask for; where F16s and F15s need a smooth, clean runway inspected for debris every morning, this thing was made to takeoff and land on mud airstrips.

Maybe they didn't have a chicken in every pot, but the system didn't make them stupid automatons.

Who said that they were stupid automatons? MiGs were tough little machines, but SU-37s were the last gasp of USSR technology to try to keep up with the F22. ( Not bad for a gal from LA, huh?) As for the Bolshoi, it was (of course) politically subsidized and bored the local Moscovites out of their minds. No wonder so many defectors from the art world... you can't really be hankering for the good old bad days of the USSR? They are still uncovering mass graves from Stalin's time.

[skunk]

Who said that they were stupid automatons? MiGs were tough little machines, but SU-37s were the last gasp of USSR technology to try to keep up with the F22. ( Not bad for a gal from LA, huh?) As for the Bolshoi, it was (of course) politically subsidized and bored the local Moscovites out of their minds. No wonder so many defectors from the art world... you can't really be hankering for the good old bad days of the USSR? They are still uncovering mass graves from Stalin's time.Who said anybody's hankering?

[pseudobrit]

Bollocks. What about Russia? Pakistan? What about the countless dictators, despots and military governments that the West has supported and armed? Are our governments "just"?

Beat me to it. This idea of a "noble west" shedding blood to free the world is laughable. The west has been all too eager to prop up any dictator, despot or totalitarian government as long as he pledged his continuing hatred of communism or our enemies. Saddam Hussein is Exhibit A.

Since the fall of CCCP, we don't even care about that pesky "communism" tag. Just so long as there's money to be made.

[IJ Reilly]

Who said anybody's hankering?

Oh, I thought he said handkerchief.

Gashuntheit!

[pseudobrit]

Who said that they were stupid automatons?
...
You need freedom to create. If you have oppression, you might improvise, but the Soviet Union and her slave blocs weren't known for creative excellence in the marketplace or military.

[skunk]

Gashuntheit!Thank you. I was tempted to point out that it's actually Gesundheit, but then I thought it was probably a clever German pun on your part, so I didn't.


:rolleyes: (obligatory)

[California]

Beat me to it. This idea of a "noble west" shedding blood to free the world is laughable. The west has been all too eager to prop up any dictator, despot or totalitarian government as long as he pledged his continuing hatred of communism or our enemies. Saddam Hussein is Exhibit A.

Since the fall of CCCP, we don't even care about that pesky "communism" tag. Just so long as there's money to be made.

The self loathing Western male is appealing to girls for about half a semester junior year of University. After that, it is misplaced self pity. We live in the best culture in the history of mankind and yes, people with the nobility of the common man did shed blood for it. Sacrificial blood. Not the blood shed in hopes of getting in bed with some celestial virgins. And not the murderous blood shed by crazed despots from Hitler to Stalin to Trotsky to Lenin to Mao to Pol Pot to Ho Che Mihn to Saddam Hussein -- who murdered their own people!

Winston Churchill didn't line up Brits and machine gun them after they built the Tube -- for example -- as did Stalin. BTW, Hussein idolized Stalin. That's where the geeky moustache came in.

[IJ Reilly]

Thank you. I was tempted to point out that it's actually Gesundheit, but then I thought it was probably a clever German pun on your part, so I didn't.

And thank you for not pointing it out.

[blackfox]

Wow California, I bow to your superior intellect and knowledge in this thread.

Or I would, if if didn't get in the way of you making any halfway-meaningful or relevant point.

What the hell are you on about?

You may want to check how much thermal paste you put on your brain, as it appears to be overheating.

[skunk]

You may want to check how much thermal paste you put on your brain, as it appears to be overheating.Nice.:)

[jacobj]

The Soviets captured Nazi rocket scientists after WWII when Alger Hiss spied for Stalin at Yalta and they carved up and then occupied Germany/Berlin. The space age "edge" on the U.S. was as short lived as their German scientists. Granted, the USSR also sank most of their ill-gotten resources into military (i.e. space) spending and took us by surprise. However, Khruschev showed his true colors by 1959 when he refused to believe that most Americans had washers and dryers in their private homes - and when he visited the U.S. in the same year he was flabbergasted at the US's wealth and agriculture from his visits to Disneyland and the Idaho potato fields. He thought the vast beet and potato farms were fake mock-ups.

So the USSR's advances in rocketry were really only their ill gotten gains in the spoils of WWII. It advanced their knowledge of ballistic missiles, but they still relied upon industrial and military thievery, not native creativity, in their Air Force and military. (Note all the Cold War era Soviet planes were copies of US planes. Reverse engineering. )

On the home front, there were long queues for even the most mundane goods and services, save maybe Vodka and caviar. This all from a country that had more natural resources than all of North American combined. Stalin raped and murdered the Kulacks in the 20's because they dared to farm without wanting governmental control, destroying the USSR's ability to ever make its own bread to feed her own people again. By the 1970's President Carter still had to provide wheat to Russia because their people were still in a post WWII survival mode. Lots of missiles, no food.

As for USSR creativity, maybe I'll give you Solzenitsin. i loved "One Day In The Life of Ivan Denisovich", an account of life in a Soviet gulag in the 1950's. Oppression is not the sanctuary for the sane, tho creativity under oppressoin may be. However, Stalin shot so many writers during the 1930's in show trials that we'll never know what may have written. In their stead, we have Orwell to remind us of Marxism's horrorshows. "Darkness at Noon" is another goodie.

Let's not forget Prokofiev, a man that laboured so hard to express himself under Stalin's Russia. He was oppressed and yet strived and succeeded in his task.

You make a few well observed points and then forget that the US space program was centred around German scientists as well.

I am not arguing that Russia under Communism was a wonderful place. It seems that when you reply to my comments it is with the intention of showcasing your knowledge. Alas, in doing so you forget to focus your intellect. Please read my comments as I am not willing to get into an argument about the rights and wrongs of Capatilistic Democracy over Communism.

My point is that idealistic arguments are often incompatible with the practicalities of the real world logisitics and it is therefore better to use a more utilitarian philosophy, which the Chinese did.

Russia was different and I never argued otherwise.

[jacobj]

Uh, you ever read the Declaration of Independence, the Magna Carta or the US Constitution? All just governments derive their powers from the free will of the governed. Once you break that pact, as China does repeatedly, you no longer even have a legitimate government. This is why China was not recognized until the 70's.

Killing is not always wrong. Murder is always wrong. People kill in a war, but governments like China cold bloodedly and systematically murdered millions and millions of their own people for political reasons so they could stay in power.

As for "idealism dying along with Lenin" -- Lenin died in 1925. Mao didn't complete a communist takeover until 1949. I'm curious as to what Trotsky fake "idealism" you think Lenin had to offer? Dictatorship of the proletariat is still a dictatorship. And a totalitarian one at that. The free West shed its blood for the freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of the press and the will of a free people to elect their own representatives. You wanna go back to Animal Farm for some supposed idealism -- in a world where you cannot speak freely, think freely or vote at all?

Do you know the origin of the phrase "politically incorrect" came from the old Soviet Union and Mao's China? Where you could, indeed, be arrested for being against Stalin/Mao/Lenin -- you could be arrested just for thinking "politically incorrect". (This is where Philip Dick got his idea in the early fifties when he wrote the short story for MINORITY REPORT, btw)

Another wonderful example of an argument constructed to show off your knowledge. You can't even hide it towards the end. Philip K Dick (you forgot the K in a name that the author so carefully chose) also wrote "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep" that went on to be blade runner, he..... Oh, I don't do this kind of competition.

Now you mention Animal Farm. I'd like you to expand here as Orwell's genius is unrivalled in 20th literature (an opnion) and I would love to explore how deeply you really understand that work and what it means.

Are you aware that Orwell was a Socialist?

Also, have you really read the Magna Carta.. Amazing. Which transaltion?

[jacobj]

The self loathing Western male is appealing to girls for about half a semester junior year of University. After that, it is misplaced self pity. We live in the best culture in the history of mankind and yes, people with the nobility of the common man did shed blood for it. Sacrificial blood. Not the blood shed in hopes of getting in bed with some celestial virgins. And not the murderous blood shed by crazed despots from Hitler to Stalin to Trotsky to Lenin to Mao to Pol Pot to Ho Che Mihn to Saddam Hussein -- who murdered their own people!

Winston Churchill didn't line up Brits and machine gun them after they built the Tube -- for example -- as did Stalin. BTW, Hussein idolized Stalin. That's where the geeky moustache came in.

Churchill did line up the Irish and gun them down though. Don't idealise the West. The modern western government and the US more than any other, have a history of despotism, only they do not do it at home because the power of the people cannot be underestimated. If however the people are happy, or see an open road to happiness then the government is left to its own devices.

The US government has a foreign policy that supports US business at any cost. Saddam Hussein is the famous example of a US placed leader, the Taliban were funded by the US, the Panamanian government were obliterated by the US. The US interferes in Haiti and the Dominican Republic continually and look what has happened there. The US fund and support the Saudi monarchy (hardly a democracy).

The US still had no justification for invading Afghanistan. I hated the Taliban and am glad that they are gone, but what right did the US have to invade them. The US has harboured many a foreign criminal, e.g. Jean-Bertrand Aristide, who has committed acts far more barbarous than 9/11.

Your idealistic US is non-existent. If you believe in what you say then you should fight for a different government and one that does not oppress others for the benefit of their own.

Alas, all we have done in the West is prevent those that once oppressed us from doing so with such blatancy again. We have sacrificed the rest of the world for our own gain and if we fail to do anything about it then we deserve no forgivness or restraint from those that fight against us.

[skunk]

Too bloody right, mate.

[j26]

.... Chinese Marxist sins against her own people ...yada yada yada...

Again,

China was never Marxist - it was Maoist. Different philosophies.

If China was Marxist, how come those damed Russian Commies didn't get on with the Chinese given Comintern?

Please don't accept the simplified version of the World (USA good - everywhere else is either with us or commies). The world is a uniform shade of grey my dear man/woman/other. We're all at it, every state is out for itself, and every political elite is trying to hold on to power, and don't think the US is much different than everywhere else.

[mactastic]

Hell, the US government machine-gunned civilians too, back when being an Indian didn't mean you thought cows were sacred.

Same government system that exists now too, which seems to be ably brought to bear against the current Chinese government, making the current regime responsible for the sins of past regimes.

Not bringing this up to say we're worse or better than China, just to point out that there is no moral high ground to be had in the 'well my government never killed civilians' argument.

BTW, how is that thermal paste issue going?

[pseudobrit]

The self loathing Western male is appealing to girls for about half a semester junior year of University. After that, it is misplaced self pity. We live in the best culture in the history of mankind and yes, people with the nobility of the common man did shed blood for it. Sacrificial blood. Not the blood shed in hopes of getting in bed with some celestial virgins. And not the murderous blood shed by crazed despots from Hitler to Stalin to Trotsky to Lenin to Mao to Pol Pot to Ho Che Mihn to Saddam Hussein -- who murdered their own people!

Winston Churchill didn't line up Brits and machine gun them after they built the Tube -- for example -- as did Stalin. BTW, Hussein idolized Stalin. That's where the geeky moustache came in.

Self-loathing western male? Don't patronise me. I'm Irish. Look at what the noble west did to my people for hundreds of years. Ask a native American Indian how great the white American culture is.

What do the girls say about a self-centred, romantic simpleton?

[jacobj]

Hell, the US government machine-gunned civilians too, back when being an Indian didn't mean you thought cows were sacred.


I love that. Nice witicism, but it is a shame that it may offend some and even more of a shame that the number of Indians that don't believe that to be true is greater than the population of the US or Europe.

[skunk]

I love that. Nice witicism, but it is a shame that it may offend some and even more of a shame that the number of Indians that don't believe that to be true is greater than the population of the US or Europe.?:confused:

[blackfox]

?:confused:
I took it as:
(a) Some may be offended at such a stereotype of Indians (subcontinent) and their dominant Religion (presumably those who are either/both).

(b) There are a large minority of Indians (subcontinent) who are not Hindus - like the large % of Muslims in India for example.

If it was actually referring to the machine-gun reference, then I also have no clue.

Seems like an intellectual/tehnical joke - like "how many grams of thermal paste do you put on a computer chip before people take it as a personal insult and/or explain it via geopolitical theory that may have been found inside a crackerjack box?"

meh.

[mactastic]

I love that. Nice witicism, but it is a shame that it may offend some and even more of a shame that the number of Indians that don't believe that to be true is greater than the population of the US or Europe.
Since you seem to be lacking a sense of humor, I'll try to explain it to you again:

You argue that modern-day China is responsible for the sins of it's former leaders, since the type of government is the same as it was when those atrocities were committed. Does it follow then that you hold the current US government responsible for the sins of it's former leaders, who machine-gunned down hundreds of Native Americans, not to mention used biological weapons on them? Or will you justify your position by drawing an arbitrary line in time and saying that only sins of the past century are admissible? There were no such qualifiers in your previous argument, just that leaders who order their citizens to be machine-gunned down are horrible and any leaders that follow in their system of government are just as horrible.

Was that clear enough?

[skunk]

Or will you justify your position by drawing an arbitrary line in time and saying that only sins of the past century are admissible? There were no such qualifiers in your previous argumentBetter be careful with those qualifiers: the Philippines War didn't end until 1902 (3m dead), and then there's always Vietnam (1-2m dead) to fall back on. Oh, and GW1 (70-100,000 dead), Afghanistan (10-15,000 dead) and GW2 (35,000 +). Tread softly...

[mactastic]

Better be careful with those qualifiers: the Philippines War didn't end until 1902 (3m dead), and then there's always Vietnam (1-2m dead) to fall back on. Oh, and GW1 (70-100,000 dead), Afghanistan (10-15,000 dead) and GW2 (35,000 +). Tread softly...
Now now -- Let's not make this too hard on him...

[jacobj]

Since you seem to be lacking a sense of humor, I'll try to explain it to you again:

You argue that modern-day China is responsible for the sins of it's former leaders, since the type of government is the same as it was when those atrocities were committed. Does it follow then that you hold the current US government responsible for the sins of it's former leaders, who machine-gunned down hundreds of Native Americans, not to mention used biological weapons on them? Or will you justify your position by drawing an arbitrary line in time and saying that only sins of the past century are admissible? There were no such qualifiers in your previous argument, just that leaders who order their citizens to be machine-gunned down are horrible and any leaders that follow in their system of government are just as horrible.

Was that clear enough?

I haven't been here for a while and wonder if you'll ever see this; but I never argued that modern day China were accountable for the sins of their fathers. I'd like to understand how you concluded that from what I said. I am actually what you may call a utilitarian existentialist: I believe that guilt is a meaningless concept.

[mactastic]

I haven't been here for a while and wonder if you'll ever see this; but I never argued that modern day China were accountable for the sins of their fathers. I'd like to understand how you concluded that from what I said. I am actually what you may call a utilitarian existentialist: I believe that guilt is a meaningless concept.
My bad... I was in a hurry, and for some reason assumed you were California.

Mea Culpa.

[MACDRIVE]

Can someone explain to me why Apple computers can't be made in the USA?

If you're going to tell me that it's because Apple would have to charge a higher price for the product because of increased labor charges, then I ask; how much of an increase in price would there be to have them made in the USA?

Am I a racist? Answer: No.

If the new MacBooks could be built by Chinese Americans, that would be great.

Am I economically prejudice? Answer: Yes.

I do wish that all goods sold in this country were domestically produced. And if there were some imported goods, at least have them made in a democratic country where their labor force are payed the same amount of currency per hour as their American counterparts.

Is that too much to ask? :cool:

[MACDRIVE]

You mean to tell me I get the last word on this thread? :D