Why does Apple ignore gamers?

[yadmonkey]

It seems to me that Apple would be wise to court gamers and game developers more aggressively. Now, I have heard many Mac-fanatics swell up with passion and pride saying "Why do you need a Mac to play games?" and "Macs are for serious professionals."

As a serious professional who loves video games, I see it differently. I own 4 Macs and have made a pretty good living troubleshooting and maintaining Macs, but because Apple largely ignores a 6 billion dollar industry, I am forced to give my money to Apple's biggest competitors as well. Now, the same Mac-fanatics might say "Fine. You own Macs and you bought gaming hardware as well: what's the problem?"

Macs are more expensive than PCs (and well worth it for the most part, in my little opinion). Apple is trying hard to court the average home user with their Switch campaign. The problem is this: the average home user can't and/or won't afford to buy a more expensive Mac, plus a PC and/or game consoles for their gaming needs. Your new Mac is plenty capable of playing all the latest games, but that functionality is wasted for the most part.

Now, if you love video games (there are many of us - $6 billion/year) and you are wavering between getting a Mac and a PC (the target market of the Switch campaign), Apple has basically made the choice for you by not aggressively courting game developers.

Another thing - other companies are starting to aggressively pursue the education markets, which is threatening to Apple's small percentage of the market share. It so happens that there's a higher percentage of gamers among students, who certainly don't have the extra money for other hardware. If a student sees a discounted PC on which s/he can play games in their off time versus a more expensive Mac which gets very few good games - what choice is s/he going to make? Some will still go for the Mac, but I suspect many more would if there were even a few more games available.

So, though I'll only turn it on for games, I'll always own a PC for gaming until Apple can fill that need for me and I'll happily give MS that money as long as Apple continues to give us gamers the shaft.

Apple - throw us a friggin bone here. How about Age of Mythology, Splinter Cell, or even just a simultaneous release with a PC version??!

[8thDegreeSavage]

I think you live in a cave. I play almost all the best releases of this year on my Mac just fine.

[zach]

yeah. i do too. I play my games on a 12" ibook with a 700 Mhz G3 and they play fine. So think about how theyd play on a 1.42 dual.... (i realllllyyyy want one (current status: $2000 dollars in account, 5171 needed :-(

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by yadmonkey
Apple - throw us a friggin bone here. How about Age of Mythology, Splinter Cell, or even just a simultaneous release with a PC version??!

what should apple do here? threaten the developers children? blackmail them? release dates are set by developers and game companies, not by apple. the way developers see it, there's such a small market for Mac users that the game can wait a bit (if it comes at all). i'm dying for SimCity 4 for X, but i don't blame apple-- they had nothing to do with it.

if you want to bitch at someone here, go yell at the game companies. apple provides the hardware and software needed to run the games-- it's up to developers to do the rest--

pnw

[Skurn]

Apple can't simply give us gamers a simultaneous release since it's the game developers that decide whether we will get a game or not in the first place. The developers can:
1) Don't make the game for us
2) Make the game for us (delayed)
3) Let someone (like Aspyr) port it for us
4) or do like Blizzard, which gave us a simultaneous release with WarCraft 3

If more ppl had a mac and the average mac was better for games than it is (mine has a ATY Rage 128 VR, 8mb vram and 400Mhz), the developers might get more interested in porting more games. Everyone can't afford the newest mac so it's great for gaming. Now that's when this vicious sycle starts running. I believe Apple also would have to make their machines better by investing in better graphics card and greater processor speeds (which is not possible at the moment, but we'll wait hopefully for the PPC 970;)) to be able to keep up with the latest games.
In short, alot would have to change b4 Macs would be real gaming machines.

[Eniregnat]

Be vocal, or at least write the companies that develop software.
To be blunt- Companies develop software based on where the money is. I don't think they care about the technology. They can always underpay engineers and designers, who are more than willing to be underpaid to work in this economy.

For the first time in history, the video game industry (and its related franchises) took in as much money as the motion picture industry. This is if their books are correct. In any case it is money driven. When it is profitable for them to make multi-platform games, then they do it.

Incite people to write. It does make a difference. I generally get responses from developers. It makes a difference, though often the response is “We don’t see much of a market”. They say this to the first, and maybe the 100th person, but what about the 1000th? Remember, Star Trek was “saved” more than once through public intervention. Star Trek- a relatively small niche audience saved a show.

Lastly, always buy an application, never copy. This helps make an reasonable in price, as well as reinforcing its “need”. This is preachy and makes no statements about how applications are distributed or about its users. Some companies will always charge “too-much” for their products, and they tend to be the most pirated. I try not to use any product that I think is to expensive, at least for my use. This is one of the reasons I have not upgraded to OS X.x.

[nuckinfutz]

Is is a huge industry but it's hard to be profitable. The amount of Development that goes into a game with the unique programming and fine tuning rivals just about any app you can think of. That's alot of resources to expend.

I also think that Apple's corporate culture has always eschewed gaming in favor of Professional tools and applications. This surely has caused a loss in sales to consumers.

They have done something however. With Sprockets and OpenGL they've made it possible to support cross platform gaming. The Developers just have to rise to the challenge. As well as consumer purchasing games.

[yadmonkey]

"I think you live in a cave. I play almost all the best releases of this year on my Mac just fine."

Well, 8thDegreeSavage, your insight is matched only by your incredible wit. Thank you so much for your thoughtful and provoking answer. I happen to live in a very high tech cave where we have broadband, 6 computers, 2 game consoles, a refrigerator, microwave, cable TV.... come to think of it, we call it a house. The fact is that you played a fraction of the best releases of the year because that's what the Mac got. Yes, it got some great games, but Mac-only users are missing out on a whole world of other games.

"what should apple do here? threaten the developers children? blackmail them?"
Paulwhannel, is that the best you can think of? The fact is the core of OS X should make it relatively easy for game developers to port their games to the Mac. Apple should be more helpful in supporting developers in getting started with the porting process... maybe start a program to get developers to re-think porting. Its not unheard of. It would mean an investment of time and money for Apple, but in the end, it could be quite cost-effective for game developers to make the port.

Skurn, I agree that it will be difficult to get simultaneous releases to happen. I also agree that much will have to change within Apple for them to start catering more to gamers. That's why they need to start right now.

I really don't believe Apple's 5% (forgive me if this number is wrong) market share is all that secure. If you haven't noticed, Apple is losing footing in key markets. I already mentioned education, but another Mac industry is also starting to look to PCs - the music industry. Not the music studios and record companies, but people who are looking into home studios, which is a huge portion of the market. Digidesign's Pro Tools is an industry standard and even they are starting to do product tours demonstrating their products on PCs.

On the other hand, Apple has made some converts among the average home users, ala Switch. Turns out, a whole lot of average home users really like video games. If these trends are to continue, Apple can't afford to ignore what is projected to be the largest entertainment industry by next year.

[yadmonkey]

Thanks, nuckinfutz. I agree that its a tough industry to make money in. However, once a game is finished for another system, it should not be too expensive for the port to OS X. I guess I'd just like to see Apple compete on more levels because I want to see Apple stick around.

[phgreer]

I hope Ubisoft get'sUru (http://uru.ubi.com) ported to the Mac platform. I hear it's just PC right now but Cyan the developer is trying to work with Ubisoft to get Uru ported.

Oh for those who don't know Uru is the big online game project Cyan has been working on since Riven. They say it's not a sequel as far as the storyline goes but it's set in the same "universe" and the present day.

[Dont Hurt Me]

With OSX Apple has gotten better but still has more work to do when it comes to the mac and gaming. If they want to get that young base out there then they know gaming on the mac is a must. The top PC Games almost always make it to mac. examples RTCW,Halo coming to mac,Doom3 coming to Mac,UT2003 coming to Mac and this continues. I see mac gaming as brighter and brighter and now with 1 gigers everywhere macs will run whatever is thrown at them. Apple even has there own game/page section so to say apple is ignoring gamers is wrong, perhaps it would have been better to say why has it taken so long to wake up to the gamers.

[yadmonkey]

Dont Hurt Me, maybe you're right that it is too much to say that Apple ignores Mac gamers. Apple is doing something, but I hope it is enough. Part of me is responing to their "we don't need gamers" attitude of the past. You're also right that there are some good games on the way. I played Halo on Xbox for countless hours and it will more than live up to the hype for any platform.

The thing is that there are always games that are sorely missing from the list, like Age of Mythology and Splinter Cell, which would surely sell well enough to merit the port. Maybe we'll get lucky and get these games eventually too.

[Eniregnat]

If you’re in a cave, I must be living in a burrow. I have only a revB iBook, OS9, a word processor, no TV, cable, or DSL. Oh, I live in a studio- I am in burrow.

You bring up an interesting idea; Apple could help directly with development, perhaps start entire division whose sole job is to help port applications, in this case games, to OSX. This would cause a problem for the companies that exist solely to convert applications from one OS to Mac. I think that Blizzard has subcontracted the same company to do all of their software, though I can’t remember what the name of the company is.

Every level Apple competes on helps the company. Hell, were hopping that Apple becomes a big as M$, then we can complain about how Apple dominates the market and how we hate the benefits and problems that their software provides.

[yadmonkey]

Eniregnat, I very much agree that every level Apple can compete on will help them. So happens, gaming is a huge level.

[cubist]

Last year at MWNY there was a whole aisle of 17" iMacs running games, and it was impossible to find a free seat. More than twice as many as the machines in the free Internet area. So I think that Apple wants games to succeed. I saw Age of Empires II and WC3 and WipeOut 2097 there, and bought all three eventually.

The developers are a funny lot. Electronic Arts, for example, seems to have an anti-Mac attitude. AOEII is from Microsoft, ported to Mac by Bold Games. CivIII and others were ported by MacSoft fairly quickly. The console market (PS2, Xbox et al) is artificially hard and expensive to enter.

Another hurdle for a game developer is MacOS X. Should they develop exclusively for X, or for Carbon? If the latter, development is no easier than before, perhaps harder; if the former, you may be shutting yourself out of a large portion of an already small market.

I think we'll have to give things time: time for the MacOS 9 (and 8!) diehards to give in, time for better hardware to be available, time for MacOS X to get better.

In the meantime, open-source games such as Racer, FreeCraft and FreeCiv can be ported to the Mac (with X11) and run well. They don't run well on Windows, if at all. We are on the brink of a major industry shift to 64-bit Unix/Linux; Windows has peaked and is in decline. The Mac has got to ride that wave. MacOS X was a big gamble, but it was a necessary one.

[erickkoch]

I knew I'd be shortchanged on games when I bought my Mac but it's not a big issue with me. I don't know how the rest of you feel but as far as I can tell, 90-95% of the games for PC's are junk anyway. I don't remember where I read this but I heard that most published games lose money or barely break even. Usually the only games come out for the Mac are the good ones. When I was a PC user, the games never worked well because it was so hard to keep up with the increasing requirements in memory, sound and vid cards, CPU speed, hard drive capacity, I finally gave up.

I use a console (Gamecube). Consoles are $150-$200 now, you never have to worry about compatability problems and minimum system requirements, you just get a new one every 3-4 years. TV screens are larger than most monitors. While not all games port to a console, it's a good compramise.

I've still got my old Connectix Virtual Game Station PS1 emulator, though I hardly use it. Maybe if someone can make a PS2 emulator for the Mac we'd all be happier.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

I'm actually currently developing a high-end Mac-only gaming studio because of the potential I see with Cocoa and OS X. I'll likely start the company this summer and currently have several investors ready to make a commitment - so I'll likely have a great deal of capital at start up to invest at the beginning to create something very special.

[macktheknife]

Eniregnat: I totally agree with you in that Apple should have a department 100% dedicated to gaming, whether it's helping developers port their games or create better game programming tools. I also think Apple should make an equity investment in some game companies to ensure they develop for the Mac. Apple could strike a deal with say, an Electronic Arts, to help with the cost of developing a Mac version of a game and taking an gains (or losses) associated with it. I think it would send a good message to the gaming industry: Apple so confident that games could be profitable on a Mac it is willing to put its money where its mouth is.

A better solution would be, IMHO, form an alliance with Nintendo to get GameCube games to play on the Mac. Wait, wait, hear me out first (and no flames!): Game console makers don't make money on the consoles themselves so cannibalization of GameCube sales shouldn't be a big deal. Apple can help Nintendo with network gaming (which will be infinitely easier on a Mac than some clumsy add-on). I mean, imagine the possibilities! Imagine competing in Super Mario Cart on the Internet!

Ah, we can always dream, can't we? :)

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by Mr. MacPhisto
I'm actually currently developing a high-end Mac-only gaming studio because of the potential I see with Cocoa and OS X. I'll likely start the company this summer and currently have several investors ready to make a commitment - so I'll likely have a great deal of capital at start up to invest at the beginning to create something very special.

Hey Mr. MacPhisto, can you tell us more about your startup? What kind of games do you have in mind? What's your timeline of delivering a product?

[iJon]

man everyone is gonna hate me for this post. i pretty much laugh at my mac when it comes to games. but we are getting better. most games that come to mac satisfy people like the top 10 games. but there are so many other games that are out there that we dont have and probably never have. morrowind, americas army, soldiers, gta3, the new matrix game, game of the year battlefield 1942. also star wars galaxies (which because of a couple of days ago the game will no officially suck a***), splinter cell. i could go on and on. we just now got force feedback, teamspeak is almos here. EAX sound technology with creative audigy drives (which drivers are suppose to come but yet still havent).5.1 surround sound gaming. the mac will be good if you like sims and harry potter and the rest of your games. but apple is no where close to pc's in the game market. all i have to say is that if you are serious about games and thats really what you want to do, a mac isnt the machine for you. same goes for if you want to do video and photo editing, then a pc really isnt the computer for you.

iJon

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by iJon
man everyone is gonna hate me for this post. i pretty much laugh at my mac when it comes to games. but we are getting better. most games that come to mac satisfy people like the top 10 games. but there are so many other games that are out there that we dont have and probably never have. morrowind, americas army, soldiers, gta3, the new matrix game, game of the year battlefield 1942. also star wars galaxies (which because of a couple of days ago the game will no officially suck a***), splinter cell. i could go on and on. we just now got force feedback, teamspeak is almos here. EAX sound technology with creative audigy drives (which drivers are suppose to come but yet still havent).5.1 surround sound gaming. the mac will be good if you like sims and harry potter and the rest of your games. but apple is no where close to pc's in the game market. all i have to say is that if you are serious about games and thats really what you want to do, a mac isnt the machine for you. same goes for if you want to do video and photo editing, then a pc really isnt the computer for you.

iJon

Hey, iJon! I thought you weren't going to post anymore on Macrumors!?!? Glad see you really do prowl these threads. :D

[iJon]

wow more people read that thread than i thought. i did some thinking and changed my mind. read my thread on it. that will tell you why i changed my mind.

iJon

[idkew]

well, beacuse there are CONSOLES out there.

i bet 75% of that $6b is spent on consoles, console games, and accesories.

[kenkooler]

Originally posted by macktheknife
Eniregnat: I totally agree with you in that Apple should have a department 100% dedicated to gaming, whether it's helping developers port their games or create better game programming tools. I also think Apple should make an equity investment in some game companies to ensure they develop for the Mac. Apple could strike a deal with say, an Electronic Arts, to help with the cost of developing a Mac version of a game and taking an gains (or losses) associated with it. I think it would send a good message to the gaming industry: Apple so confident that games could be profitable on a Mac it is willing to put its money where its mouth is.

A better solution would be, IMHO, form an alliance with Nintendo to get GameCube games to play on the Mac. Wait, wait, hear me out first (and no flames!): Game console makers don't make money on the consoles themselves so cannibalization of GameCube sales shouldn't be a big deal. Apple can help Nintendo with network gaming (which will be infinitely easier on a Mac than some clumsy add-on). I mean, imagine the possibilities! Imagine competing in Super Mario Cart on the Internet!

Ah, we can always dream, can't we? :)

I would say it's not completely out of the question, both the GameCube and the Playstation2 have PowerPC processors and are not so different from PCs.

[idkew]

Originally posted by kenkooler
I would say it's not completely out of the question, both the GameCube and the Playstation2 have PowerPC processors and are not so different from PCs.

every game would have to be recompiled for a mac ppc processor. while they are both ppc, the gamecube's proc and apple's procs are not compatible.

it would be neat though. make a 2 sided disc- one apple, one gc. too bad any slot loading drive can't handle mini cds/dvds.

an adapter for controllers would be very cheap to manufacture.

the bid problem comes with video cards. nintendo knows everything about the gamecube's hardware; that is not true about an apple. maybe we could just add a gamecube pci card which has the video card and such along with controller plugs... all for $149.

possible, but not probable.

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Originally posted by macktheknife
Hey Mr. MacPhisto, can you tell us more about your startup? What kind of games do you have in mind? What's your timeline of delivering a product?

The games initially will be RPG/Adventure games that involve multi-tiered storylines. The difficulty is creating the tiered gaming that makes it replayable several times with different storylines being developed each time (there will have to be some limits).

Storyboarding will likely start in July. We'll be working with our programmers and CGI artists to lay things out and determine what can be done. With luck, a playable demo that will show what we're working on will be released around Christmas time - it may be a small, independent game demonstrating technology available. The idea is to show the ability of the Macintosh and OS X - along with utilizing things that make the RISC a very good chip. I've got several story ideas at this time and will likely start assembling a full team in May in preparation for launch.

May already have distribution lines in Europe and the US open for when the first project is done. My inclination is that the first project will be story-based in Ancient Greece involving multiple interactions with the Greek gods and Greek mythology and folklore.

Project #2 will likely be a storyline/space sim, but I've yet to develop any storylines surrounding it.

The idea is to make an engrossing game that requires some thought to complete and can be replayed while providing strong plots and subplots - instead of offering a crummy plot to set up the gamer blowing stuff up, etc. Haven't decided if it will be first-person or not. Many of the details will be hammered out when the design team is assembled officially.

[chmorley]

I've been thinking about this for the past few weeks. Having used Macs for the past 13+ years, I have no ambivalence about what is the right platform for me--and what is the better platform overall. However, there are some issues worth looking at here.

First of all, yadmonkey is right. Serious gamers won't look at the Mac. However, it's not that Apple ignores them. I think there is one good reason for this: Mac hardware can't keep up.

Now, make no mistake, Mac hardware is more than fast enough for everyone except that 1% of computer users who need incredible processing power (e.g., gamers, video editors). While Apple has done a great job doing the most with the hardware they have, there is simply no ignoring the benchmarks.

That being said, I wonder it this will change with the 970. I hope it will.

BTW, I use my TiBook 677 very day, all day long, for many different things. When I am done with it at work (impressing the hell out of people who see it), I use it for photo and video editing at home. It is a great machine. I have no complaints about my Mac, and no misapprehension that Mac hardware is as fast as that on a PC.

Chris

[mattmack]

The other problem porting companies are having is that the parent developer doesn't want to release the code to them (as in Battlefield 1942)
Aspyr has approached the developers to produce a mac port but they want nothing to do with it.
Sometimes it happens, but you think you'd want to make as much money as possible, I guess privacy rules all

[iJon]

Originally posted by mattmack
The other problem porting companies are having is that the parent developer doesn't want to release the code to them (as in Battlefield 1942)
Aspyr has approached the developers to produce a mac port but they want nothing to do with it.
Sometimes it happens, but you think you'd want to make as much money as possible, I guess privacy rules all
plus dice wants to keep it strictly pc. they cancelled the xbox version of battlefield. i wish it would come to mac just so my friend can play with me side by side. i love that game, just got road to rome the other day. there isnt any other game like this. thats why its number 1 game of the year.

iJon

[mattmack]

Originally posted by iJon
plus dice wants to keep it strictly pc. they cancelled the xbox version of battlefield. i wish it would come to mac just so my friend can play with me side by side. i love that game, just got road to rome the other day. there isnt any other game like this. thats why its number 1 game of the year.

iJon I agree with you it looks like a great game, but why as a developer wouldn't you want to make as much money as possible and port it to xbox and mac and ps2
(don't tell me artistic integrity either :D )

[iJon]

im not really sure why they cancelled it. i have a friend who stays on top of the latest news in the game world and ill ask him what their plans are. the other game that looked promising was star wars galaxies. but as of last week the devs cut about every cool feature that game had to offer and now it is gonna suck.

iJon

[mattmack]

Originally posted by iJon
im not really sure why they cancelled it. i have a friend who stays on top of the latest news in the game world and ill ask him what their plans are. the other game that looked promising was star wars galaxies. but as of last week the devs cut about every cool feature that game had to offer and now it is gonna suck.

iJon bummer they always screw up the good games

[buffsldr]

I am guessing games would just draw a lot of unwanted comparisons between macs and pcs. I really dont use a mac because of the FPS. C'mon. pcs are so cheap you can go get yourself a competent gaming box for about $500, cant you? If you are a gamer, this seems reasonable. Why do you need all the games on the mac?

[mattmack]

Originally posted by buffsldr
I am guessing games would just draw a lot of unwanted comparisons between macs and pcs. I really dont use a mac because of the FPS. C'mon. pcs are so cheap you can go get yourself a competent gaming box for about $500, cant you? If you are a gamer, this seems reasonable. Why do you need all the games on the mac?
Because I don't want to pay microsoft one red cent period. And i don't want to sacrifice my privacy as you do on XP

[MrMacMan]

See apple doesn't ignore gamers. Sure I'd really like us NOT to miss the next big game but apple sure is getting better.

Battlefield not coming to mac was a real let down but what are you supposto do?

I mean we see that besides for the big names we also have people giving there effort to make our games better.

Sure we should always get the top 15 games but we don't which is a bad thing.
I'm hoping if we really get the community behind us we can get some really good games to come to the mac.

I see several games coming that we will not get that I have a problem with.

Command & Conquer: Generals - This series of games has been going on too long not to have a mac version. They finally make a really killer game and we miss out.

Half-Life 2/Counterparts(mods): We have a real problem here, I'm sure you all noticed that a big thing recently was CS. CS quake mod here, CS like mod for Unreal there. Enough. We need the next big thing.

If the game makers aren't gonna make these for mac we have a voice. We can sent e-mails, make petitions, *gasp* right real letters. I don't want our community to miss out anymore people.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by buffsldr
pcs are so cheap you can go get yourself a competent gaming box for about $500, cant you?

It's closer to $600 or $700 for a gaming box w/o monitor (and this is assuming you already have a legeally purcahsed copy of an OS ;)). I spent ~$400 building my gf a budget rig and I even pulled the optical and floppy drives from her old computer.

I agree w/yer point though. The Mac is not an ideal gaming solution. IMO it has little to do w/Apple not "wanting" gamers, but w/3rd parties (hardware and software) supporting PCs more than Macs.


Lethal

[yadmonkey]

Mr. MacPhisto,

I wish you the best of luck. People like you are the hope in this situation.

To others who suggested that most PC games are crap, you are right, but the top 10% of PC games is still a lot bigger than the top 10 list that Mac gamers get.

I am still waiting for word that Age of Mythology could come to Macs, but if it doesn't get anounced in the next few months, I'll just have to buy it for the PC.

[macphoria]

I don't think Apple ignores gamers. They constantly make case for how capable of game platform Mac's are and promote diverse list of games. I think it is just that because Apple holds little market share, game developers simply find that it is not worth their effort to make games for Macs which won't generate much profit.

[Sabenth]

Here is the problem guys its based around the fact thta most people wont buy a mac small market means less cash for the developer as far as cots of games go yea its a 6 billion dollar market but that counts as the following

Consoles
PC
Mac

out of all 3 of these most have conesole and pc a mac is treated as an exspensive computer that gets little media attention yet if you watch tv all you see are macs well i macs that is . yet dont see anyone actualy using them do you. anyways. It runs down to the fact that people will either buy a console to play games because face it there getting faster better graphics more memory etc etc as are pcs but give it a bout another 3 years and a console will wipe the floor with pcs and macs just for games though ....

I admit i dont own a mac at present so i dont know what the games quality is like but i can tell you this much i am pissed of with the games industry as it is

MS BRING OUT THAT HUGE BLOCK SONY BRING OUT THERE HUGE BLOCK AND NINTENDO BRING OUT THE LITTLE BLOCK why dosnt some one from apple show them how to make a deacent looking box for a change...........

GOD DONT SAVE THE QUEEN.....................???

[voyagerd]

Surround sound in games doesn't seem to be supported though:(

There also are a lot of Star Trek games that are PC only:mad:

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Originally posted by yadmonkey
Mr. MacPhisto,

I wish you the best of luck. People like you are the hope in this situation.

To others who suggested that most PC games are crap, you are right, but the top 10% of PC games is still a lot bigger than the top 10 list that Mac gamers get.

I am still waiting for word that Age of Mythology could come to Macs, but if it doesn't get anounced in the next few months, I'll just have to buy it for the PC.

It'll likely be a rough road to start out, but I'm betting on an increase in Mac marketshare over the next two years or so - with a substantial increase in power provided by the PPC970 and the POWER5 derivative that I think will find it's way into PowerMacs by late 2004.

But the potential is great and I earnestly feel that the Mac can do things that Windows cannot. Plus we want to bring more intelligent gaming to the community with higher quality. Most gaming studios are too much like film studios - little internal policing, too much spending, and too much junk. We intend to go back to the old model, where we might produce only two games a year, at most - but they would be of a very high quality.

I remember, as a kid and teenager, waiting anxiously for the next Sierra release (back when Sierra was putting out stuff like KQ4, 5, SQ series, QfG, etc) and waiting several years in between releases - because it took time to get it right. Now most games are hackneyed efforts with little real heart or wit. We seek to change that and bring great, revolutionary games to the Mac (hopefully exploiting the 16x9 aspect that Apple is starting to favor) and to a community that prides itself on quality over quantity. I hope we succeed.

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by Mr. MacPhisto
I remember, as a kid and teenager, waiting anxiously for the next Sierra release (back when Sierra was putting out stuff like KQ4, 5, SQ series, QfG, etc) and waiting several years in between releases - because it took time to get it right. Now most games are hackneyed efforts with little real heart or wit. We seek to change that and bring great, revolutionary games to the Mac (hopefully exploiting the 16x9 aspect that Apple is starting to favor) and to a community that prides itself on quality over quantity. I hope we succeed.

I totally hear what you are saying, Mr. MacPhisto. I still recall with great fondness the games of my youth: Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Dragon Warrior, and Final Fantasy (when it was on the Nintendo). The games of today do indeed look more like some expensive movie that may look great but have poor game play.

I can't speak for everyone out there, but I personally think Final Fantasy was never the same after FF 7 came out on the PS. I can still remember the storyline and "magic" of the FF series on the NES and SNES. Even though the FF series on the PS look infinitely better, it just isn't the same.

[Das]

Eh, that's why I have a copy of Virtual Game Station and copies of both ff9 and Chrono Cross for my Powerbook. Now that's gaming.

The mac strictly isn't a game machine, period. Water is wet, fire is hot and monkeys in dresses are funny. It's all simple economics really, developers make a game to make a grip of cash so they go to the platform with the biggest base. Personally, I don't mind the situation right now with the games. We often get the cream de la crop of the PC side (a little late, but welcomed), not to mention exclusive Macworld Game of the Year editions like BugWorld 2 (shoot me now). So, while I won't be playing Splinter Cel on a mac anytime soon, bohoo I've got my PC for that.

Can Apple do something to woo devs over? Perhaps. Will they? Probably not. Until the mac starts selling more computers and ships them with better gfx cards (frickin MX happy freaks), devs aren’t going to convert code. Just be happy that companies like Macplay and Aspyr exist. Now, take your Wingnuts and be happy.

[macphoria]

I think gaming on personal computers is going down hill because of consoles, as someone pointed their prominence. It really makes little sense that game developers will spend effort on so-so market when colsoles bring in so much money.

[Flickta]

Originally posted by voyagerd

There also are a lot of Star Trek games that are PC only:mad:

Thank God they are!

Frankly, Star Trek games are usually bad. Simply BAD. Movie-fans are satisfied, maybe, but what the..?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Apple's Software division has done some great things , why couldnt they come up with a far out cool Mac only game by Mac.? or maybe do a game once a year? Come on STEVE!

[Das]

Originally posted by Flickta
Thank God they are!

Frankly, Star Trek games are usually bad. Simply BAD. Movie-fans are satisfied, maybe, but what the..?

Well, Elite Force rocked and it appears that Elite Force 2 is coming to the mac after all! (http://www.ritualistic.com//forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB11&Number=108790&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=1&fpart=1#Post108812)

[macphoria]

-----Apple's Software division has done some great things , why couldnt they come up with a far out cool Mac only game by Mac.? or maybe do a game once a year? Come on STEVE!

That is actually an interesting idea. Apple Game Development team. MS has one, why not Apple? Apple could even come out with their own colsole! iBox! Heh, maybe not.

[Flickta]

Originally posted by Das
Well, Elite Force rocked and it appears that Elite Force 2 is coming to the mac after all! (http://www.ritualistic.com//forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB11&Number=108790&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=1&fpart=1#Post108812)
That's why I said USUALLY bad. There is one exception. And its second part coming to Mac. :)

[iJon]

Originally posted by macphoria
I think gaming on personal computers is going down hill because of consoles, as someone pointed their prominence. It really makes little sense that game developers will spend effort on so-so market when colsoles bring in so much money.
im gonna have to disagree with you there. yes i agree console gaming is getting better, but computer gaming is not getting worse. pc's and consoles dont even compare. developers spend tons of time on pc games. i mean look at star wars galaxies, which has been in development for like 6 years now. we think they dont because we play games on our mac, which look like trash in my opinion. i just got finished playing splinter cell on my xbox and it was great. then i downloaded the demo for my pc and it was incredible. blew the xbox version away in every field. i completly agree that a console is a cheap way to get the some of the best games, but a actual pc computer is so much better. i wanna think anyone else on this thread with a killer gaming rig would agree with me.

iJon

[trebblekicked]

i dealt with this problem the way most mac users did...i bought a ps2.;)

when i was shopping around, i talked to a guy at Game Stop (electornics boutique, babbages, etc.) about the mac platform. he litterally laughed at me, said mac accounted for less than 1% of their business across the nation. this may just be the fact. if retailers won't carry it, that hurts an already small market, and there isn't much that can be done on a national scale. I think the one way we can help out is to support companies like aspyr that do all the porting. if half the people who pirate games would just cough up the $50.00, maybe they'd be able to port more games for us.

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by trebblekicked
i dealt with this problem the way most mac users did...i bought a ps2.;)

when i was shopping around, i talked to a guy at Game Stop (electornics boutique, babbages, etc.) about the mac platform. he litterally laughed at me, said mac accounted for less than 1% of their business across the nation. this may just be the fact. if retailers won't carry it, that hurts an already small market, and there isn't much that can be done on a national scale. I think the one way we can help out is to support companies like aspyr that do all the porting. if half the people who pirate games would just cough up the $50.00, maybe they'd be able to port more games for us.

Yeah, I think Apple will have to make a direct equity investment in some projects some companies are working on. That is, if they believe enough Mac gamers will buy a certain game, they should approach the developer and offer to invest some resources to bringing out a Mac version. Apple will help with the promotion and share the risk (i.e. if the game sells as well as Apple hopes, Apple will make money, otherwise . . . ). If Apple went through this route, they would essentially be putting their money where their mouth is.

As everyone knows, gaming is a very big industry. True, most people don't buy a Mac for games, but it is one of the things many customers consider when they purchase a new computer. Gaming should not be limited to just consoles, just as music and videos are not limited to boomboxes and DVD players, respectively.

[trebblekicked]

Originally posted by macktheknife
Gaming should not be limited to just consoles, just as music and videos are not limited to boomboxes and DVD players, respectively.

very well put.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Apple should have a small game division that kicks out a game that makes total use of mac OSX and makes everyone say WOW! sort of like the rest of the software they make! not a full fledge thing but maybe once a year or so. Halo would have been that game for mac, to bad they let microsoft buy bungie.

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by trebblekicked
very well put.

Thanks. I keep reading "Get a console for games" or "Macs aren't gaming machines" types of posts, and I think people miss a simple point. Computers are machines without any predefined limits per se--they can do almost whatever we want them to do, whether it is writing code, playing music, editing videos, organizing our schedules, and, yes, playing a few good games. Thus, IMHO, division between consoles and personal computers is an artificial one.

The gaming industry is growing quite rapidly and, as many of you already know, generates more revenues than Hollywood movies. This is why Microsoft decided to jump into the gaming business. With its $40 billion cash hoard, Microsoft can also find ways for Windows to interface with the Xbox, potentially pushing the realm of possibility in the gaming industry. Apple doesn't necessarily need to create its own games or introduce its own gaming consoles, but it cannot afford to ignore this growing industry.

[yadmonkey]

I am thrilled about all the replies, but I think some of you are missing the point entirely. Spefically, I am tlaking to those of you who say that developers are not bothering with Apple because their market share is too small. I disagree. I think that developers ignore Apple because they don't have the porting experience and it doesn't look worth it for them to do it themselves.

My point is that developers are developing games for consoles and PCs anyway - all the Mac needs is good ports of some of the better games. It is not something that should have to be too expensive for developers. My idea was for Apple to start a division to help developers port their games to the Mac. They could provide porting developer kits and support or even do the ports themselves. It would make the most sense for this to be an OS X-only thing, since it would make for easier porting and people with OS X are more likely to have more current hardware.

Again, if Apple wants to stay in the game, they are going to have to compete on every level.

[iJon]

Originally posted by yadmonkey
I am thrilled about all the replies, but I think some of you are missing the point entirely. Spefically, I am tlaking to those of you who say that developers are not bothering with Apple because their market share is too small. I disagree. I think that developers ignore Apple because they don't have the porting experience and it doesn't look worth it for them to do it themselves.

My point is that developers are developing games for consoles and PCs anyway - all the Mac needs is good ports of some of the better games. It is not something that should have to be too expensive for developers. My idea was for Apple to start a division to help developers port their games to the Mac. They could provide porting developer kits and support or even do the ports themselves. It would make the most sense for this to be an OS X-only thing, since it would make for easier porting and people with OS X are more likely to have more current hardware.

Again, if Apple wants to stay in the game, they are going to have to compete on every level.
well apple is kind of helping out. i remember reading teamspeaks web page and they said apple sent them all the necessary hardware and software to port team speak to mac.

iJon

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Originally posted by macktheknife
Yeah, I think Apple will have to make a direct equity investment in some projects some companies are working on. That is, if they believe enough Mac gamers will buy a certain game, they should approach the developer and offer to invest some resources to bringing out a Mac version. Apple will help with the promotion and share the risk (i.e. if the game sells as well as Apple hopes, Apple will make money, otherwise . . . ). If Apple went through this route, they would essentially be putting their money where their mouth is.

As everyone knows, gaming is a very big industry. True, most people don't buy a Mac for games, but it is one of the things many customers consider when they purchase a new computer. Gaming should not be limited to just consoles, just as music and videos are not limited to boomboxes and DVD players, respectively.

This is part of what we're trying to do. I actually have three direct routes I can use to get something right in Steve Jobs's hands after we've done some development. My hope is that Apple will see the necessity and be willing to throw some real support behind it. The best thing would be for them to be willing to distribute some games on the Mac - that would give them a definite advantage. And Apple could be careful what they distribute, ensuring quality.

[Das]

Porting isn't that difficult for developers. They simply don't want to because it takes time and resources. It's more trouble than it's worth. When they have the choice of making a new game when one is finished or spend time porting the source to a system that will sell only a small amount of copies, they will choose to develop a new game or center on the PC version for expansions and patches.

If you want a practical solution, simply support macplay and Aspyr. Make them big and they will gain influence and the weight needed to pull in lager franchises. If they start posting high numbers, then publishers and developers will take a second look at the market. Of course, any hand offered by Apple to developers cannot hurt, but I don't think that it would help matters much.

[macphoria]

I have to ask this. When was the last time any of you purchased a Mac game? How many in last year?

[mattmack]

Originally posted by macphoria
I have to ask this. When was the last time any of you purchased a Mac game? How many in last year?
Lets see
the most recent I bought was
Stronghold
RTCW
Harry Potter and the Sorcerers Stone
Star Trek Elite Force
Vampire: The Masquerade
Black and White
Diablo II
D II Lord of destruction
Unreal Tournament
UT Game of the Year edition
Thats about it for bought games Last year
If you count mods I've probably tried half a dozen more in the last year

[Hawthorne]

Originally posted by macphoria
I have to ask this. When was the last time any of you purchased a Mac game? How many in last year?
Last time? 2 days ago, bought Combat Missions: Beyond Overlord from here (http://www.battlefront.com) .

How many in the past year? Collapse, Ghost Recon, SOF II and Rogue Spear, and the above mentioned Combat Missions.

[mattmack]

Originally posted by Hawthorne
Last time? 2 days ago, bought Combat Missions: Beyond Overlord from here (http://www.battlefront.com) .

How many in the past year? Collapse, Ghost Recon, SOF II and Rogue Spear, and the above mentioned Combat Missions.
Combat missions looks pretty cool how is it

[yadmonkey]

MS was really smart to buy Bungie. Halo is the greatest game in years, and I normally don't get into FPS's. Insanely fun, this game is!

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by yadmonkey
I am thrilled about all the replies, but I think some of you are missing the point entirely. Spefically, I am tlaking to those of you who say that developers are not bothering with Apple because their market share is too small. I disagree. I think that developers ignore Apple because they don't have the porting experience and it doesn't look worth it for them to do it themselves.

My point is that developers are developing games for consoles and PCs anyway - all the Mac needs is good ports of some of the better games. It is not something that should have to be too expensive for developers. My idea was for Apple to start a division to help developers port their games to the Mac. They could provide porting developer kits and support or even do the ports themselves. It would make the most sense for this to be an OS X-only thing, since it would make for easier porting and people with OS X are more likely to have more current hardware.

Again, if Apple wants to stay in the game, they are going to have to compete on every level.

www.appple.com/developer

i don't get where you're coming from either. there's no way you can ask a company strapped as apple to port your games for you. they have enough on their hands, i think, with productivity apps. as for developer kits and stuff... i think ADC is a pretty cool community + resource for programmers, ranging from an OS X programming intro to sample code and info about carbon &c classes. i am still pretty sure that this is a lack of respect for apple. bad ports, i understand, are easy as pie to make, and still there even many of those.

and about competing, i think it's really petty to buy a computer for games. that's what windows users do :rolleyes:. i mean, sure, it's nice to run games on OS X, but my gaming experience has been pretty pleasant. if you are disappointed about some specific games, get over it, i say. PC users don't have Halo either. it's a screwed up market, the gaming one is, and as long as we have a good array of playable games, i'm pretty content. my Baldur's Gate II is not great like on my slower PC, but very playable.