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Abulia
May 31, 2006, 11:09 AM
From CNN (http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/30/magazines/fortune/sonyPS3_greatteams_fortune/index.htm):Analysts at Merrill Lynch calculate that the Cell microprocessor costs $230 to make, and the Blu-ray optical drive about $350. Along with a hard drive, memory chips, and other costs, Merrill Lynch says, Sony's bill of goods for each PS3 could be more than $715.

If those numbers are correct - Sony declines to comment - and if Sony hits its target of shipping four million PS3s by the end of the year, Sony could lose close to $1 billion this year on the hardware alone, adding to huge costs for PS3 development and marketing.

Abulia
May 31, 2006, 11:10 AM
Best quote to laugh out loud:He has also said the PS3 is "not a game machine." Rather, he says, it is a "machine with supercomputer calculation capabilities for home entertainment."It's a SUPERCOMPUTER! :D

MacRumorUser
May 31, 2006, 11:42 AM
Well that's simply super :D

Can do super calculations for home entertainment? Like 1 dvd in disc tray + 1 dvd eject button = no dvd WOW :eek:

Dagless
May 31, 2006, 11:55 AM
I bet they're proud.

faintember
May 31, 2006, 11:59 AM
Can do super calculations for home entertainment? Like 1 dvd in disc tray + 1 dvd eject button = no dvd WOW :eek:It can also do: ($xbox 360 + $Wiii) < $PS3 :p

Dagless
May 31, 2006, 12:01 PM
It can also do: ($xbox 360 + $Wiii) < $PS3 :p

No, that theory is wrong. F-

faintember
May 31, 2006, 12:05 PM
No, that theory is wrong. F-Ummm 299+199<599
Those are the respective prices as far as i am aware..

Dagless
May 31, 2006, 12:14 PM
Ummm 299+199<599

Sorry I'm running off UK prices. Where I think the Wii60 costs more than just 1 PS3.

The Wii60 is £10 less than a PS3. But I'd need the wifi adapter. Wii60= £450.

faintember
May 31, 2006, 12:17 PM
Sorry I'm running off UK prices. Where I think the Wii60 costs more than just 1 PS3.Maybe, and with prices not "finalized" on the PS3 or Wiii we dont really know yet. I just wanted to take the time to bash the PS3; possibly the worst idea since the Jaguar or Tubrografx IMHO.

mrgreen4242
May 31, 2006, 12:24 PM
Sorry I'm running off UK prices. Where I think the Wii60 costs more than just 1 PS3.

The Wii60 is £10 less than a PS3. But I'd need the wifi adapter. Wii60= £450.

Err, in the State at least, Premium 360 $399 + (hopefully) Wii $199 = $598 < $599 and you get he HDD and WiFi adaptor, and wireless controller. If MS is smart and the HDDVD is $99, it's only a tad more and you get the HD movie playback as well.

sk1985
May 31, 2006, 12:50 PM
I can't imagine the cell costing more then the high 100 dollar range to make. Its based off of the G5 which is now a pretty old chip now. Even with it's minor improvements that seems high. I really think sony isn't losing too much money on the PS3. Although now that I think of it that GPU might be the most expensive part and the blu-ray lazar.

XNine
May 31, 2006, 12:54 PM
A 360 even worth a crap costs 499.99. A Wii is possibly 250. That's 750.00 right there (USD). Add a wifi adapter to the 360, that's 850.00. Add a HDDVD drive to the 360, that's at LEAST 950.00, if not more likely 1050.00.

So, what's exactly cheaper? Yeah, I thought so. You can't compare a crappy 360 with no features to a PS3 with all the features.

GFLPraxis
May 31, 2006, 01:00 PM
Err, in the State at least, Premium 360 $399 + (hopefully) Wii $199 = $598 < $599 and you get he HDD and WiFi adaptor, and wireless controller. If MS is smart and the HDDVD is $99, it's only a tad more and you get the HD movie playback as well.


That's not correct. The $399 Premium XBox 360 does not include a WiFi adapter; that's an extra $99. Meanwhile, the $599 PS3 does include WiFi.

So a Premium 360 with a 20 GB hard drive and WiFi costs $499. A PS3 with a 60 GB hard drive, Blu-ray, and WiFi costs $599.

If HD-DVD only were to cost $99 (which may or may not be true), then a XBox 360 w/WiFi, w/20 GB HD, and w/HD-DVD would be $599, vs a PS3 w/WiFi, w/Blu-ray, and w/60 GB HD, would be the same price.

Microsoft gouges consumers on peripherals like WiFi.

Plus you'd have to pay for XBox Live, adding $50 a year to that price.

The 360 can quickly cost more than the PS3 if you want HD-DVD, WiFi, and online play.

2nyRiggz
May 31, 2006, 01:07 PM
A 360 even worth a crap costs 499.99. A Wii is possibly 250. That's 750.00 right there (USD). Add a wifi adapter to the 360, that's 850.00. Add a HDDVD drive to the 360, that's at LEAST 950.00, if not more likely 1050.00.

So, what's exactly cheaper? Yeah, I thought so. You can't compare a crappy 360 with no features to a PS3 with all the features.

Indeed...any chance to rip into sony is fair play...don't you know that. sony is entering the next level....more than a gaming machine...You get what you pay for.


Bless

srobert
May 31, 2006, 01:55 PM
A supercomputer? nice. I'll be able to help cure cancer while I climb the ranks of Armored Core's raven arena… after the first price drop that is.

Even if it's worth it's price, I don't feel like dancing on the roof :( I'll probably end up waiting for the first price drop before enjoying the PS3's exclusives. It's a shame because Playstation has always been a Mecca for the RPG (eastern style) fans. It will probably still be but it will cost me a lot more to join the fun this time around.

I'm a little about surprised about how much it costs sony to build those bluray drives.

Personally, I don't mind the fact that the 360 doesn't have WIFI under the hood. It's not meant to be portable so I don't feel it's an inconvenience to have it wired.

mkaake
May 31, 2006, 02:00 PM
A 360 even worth a crap costs 499.99. A Wii is possibly 250. That's 750.00 right there (USD). Add a wifi adapter to the 360, that's 850.00. Add a HDDVD drive to the 360, that's at LEAST 950.00, if not more likely 1050.00.

So, what's exactly cheaper? Yeah, I thought so. You can't compare a crappy 360 with no features to a PS3 with all the features.

I was wondering who would have posted something like this, and then I saw you changed your 'tar since I saw it last... which explained the entire post.

Anyway, what's exactly cheaper? A Wii. A 360. Lunch at Burger King. A PSP. A DS. A crappy laptop. A decent desktop. A good book. A great book.

Here's the thing - I have no problem with the PS3 having OMG!!11111!! features, but features that have no tangible benefit that drive the cost up to the levels they're disucssing... that's why people are ripping on them. The PS3 will be fun to play, just like the X360 is, the Wii will be, the PS2 was, the Xbox was, the gamecube was, and all other consoles before it (mostly) were.

I think it's silly of Sony to try and use the PS3 to bring out Blu-Ray... it was different with the PS2 and DVD's, because the market was already shifting to DVD's (slowly), and there was a LARGE consumer desire to get from VHS to something of higher quality. Those conditions *don't* exist today. People are extremely happy with the quality of DVD players, and many are still transitioning entire collections from VHS to DVD. The Blu-Ray player won't matter to many, and as such, isn't worth it to most consumers. For that reason, people will continue to laugh at Sony.

And so what if they do? Will you get less enjoyment from your 'not just a PS3' PS3 because people laugh at it's price? Will the games suddenly play differently because people think paying $600 for a gaming console is stupid?

No, it won't. So stop complaining when people laugh - they have good reason too - just like you would if Nintendo tried bringing some new optical format to the world, and charged people an extra 300 dollars/console to pay for it.

MacRumorUser
May 31, 2006, 02:04 PM
A supercomputer? nice. I'll be able to help cure cancer while I climb the ranks of Armored Core's raven arena….

Remember when they touted the ps2 (or was it ps1) to be running the starwars missile defense programme. :D :D The **** sony come out with is hillarious...

mkaake
May 31, 2006, 02:15 PM
Remember when they touted the ps2 (or was it ps1) to be running the starwars missile defense programme. :D :D The **** sony come out with is hillarious...

or rendering toy story in real time...

XNine
May 31, 2006, 02:28 PM
Remember when they touted the ps2 (or was it ps1) to be running the starwars missile defense programme. :D :D The **** sony come out with is hillarious...

The chips inside the PS2 COULD have been used for control chips inside of missiles. There were numerous mentioning of it not only from Sony, but from media sources, which is why the PS 2 was not allowed in most middle eastern countries.

The PS3 is capable of high calculations. So what? So was the G5 Powermac. Clusters of them have made some of the world's fastest Supercomputers. Imagine what the cell processor would be capable of when creating a large cluster of them. The data that could be broken down by it would be vast.

You know, maybe it's time I start slandering the Wii for it's LACK of features.

Abulia
May 31, 2006, 02:33 PM
You know, maybe it's time I start slandering the Wii for it's LACK of features.Slander is spoken, libel is written.

Please get it right if you're going to make a habit of trolling and threadcrapping at every turn. :rolleyes:

mkaake
May 31, 2006, 02:34 PM
The chips inside the PS2 COULD have been used for control chips inside of missiles. There were numerous mentioning of it not only from Sony, but from media sources, which is why the PS 2 was not allowed in most middle eastern countries.

The PS3 is capable of high calculations. So what? So was the G5 Powermac. Clusters of them have made some of the world's fastest Supercomputers. Imagine what the cell processor would be capable of when creating a large cluster of them. The data that could be broken down by it would be vast.

You know, maybe it's time I start slandering the Wii for it's LACK of features.

slandering?

you take your gaming a bit too seriously. go ahead, slander the Wii. For it's LACK of features. Of course, no one will really care if you do, you'll just be re-enforcing the image you've made for yourself here at MR...

XNine
May 31, 2006, 02:37 PM
slandering?

you take your gaming a bit too seriously. go ahead, slander the Wii. For it's LACK of features. Of course, no one will really care if you do, you'll just be re-enforcing the image you've made for yourself here at MR...

:rolleyes: Alright buddy. Say what you will.

srobert
May 31, 2006, 02:45 PM
You know, maybe it's time I start slandering the Wii for it's LACK of features.

Technically, you can't technically "start" (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2393024&postcount=22). :D

P.S.: I like your avatar. What anime is that?

greatdevourer
May 31, 2006, 03:51 PM
Technically, you can't technically "start" (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2393024&postcount=22). :D

P.S.: I like your avatar. What anime is that? You have a point there, in that that's all he ever does in forum 18... :rolleyes:

On topic, no-one except investors and Sony execs really care how much they cost to build, rather what they cost to buy

Dagless
May 31, 2006, 04:58 PM
Indeed...any chance to rip into sony is fair play...don't you know that. sony is entering the next level....more than a gaming machine...You get what you pay for.


Bless

What? the next level is doing mroe than gaming? So don't you mean it's a computer? the next level for consoles is not being a computer. Why would it be? consoles and computers are side by side, one keeps its specs dormant for years whilst more optimised code is developed for it, one keeps evolving.
The PS3 has the worst aspects to both machines. It's expensive and it can't be upgraded. It's a crippled computer. It's like buying a PowerMac with the CPU, GPU and memory glued into place with no slots for upgrade.

More than gaming. I better tell my Pentium 3 500mhz computer that it's on equal terms with the PS3.
The "more than" was done decades ago. The Amiga. Only it was fed on a diet of pirated games and utilities. Commodore went bankrupt from it.


On topic though. Does nobody care about the cost of the games? People keep spouting this "but the PS3 is cheaper than the Wii60" (great, 1 console is a pinch cheaper than 2 combined :rolleyes: ), where we've been told that Wii games will cost £30, 360 games already cost £35-£50 and PS3 games will... cost... MORE. Sony will be making up for the PS3 console loss with games and bluray films. So you're expecting them to be cheap? If the 360 games go for £50 in stores in the UK how much do you expect bluray to go for?

PS3 games will be extortionately overpriced. If people buy the console will they spend a possible £60 on HD versions of games they already own?

Abulia
May 31, 2006, 05:35 PM
Well, I'm not happy about the price of 360 games ($60 USD). In fact, my impulse spending for 360 games is much lower than it was on my Xbox. I buy fewer games and am more critical of what I buy.

The saving grace is the Marketplace demos that I can download. This has saved me from many a crappy purchase (Blazing Angels, anyone?) and sold me on some games that I had no interest in (Fight Night Round Three).

The good news is that some games (Rockstar's Table Tennis) are coming out at a new, lower price point. So someone has gotten the message.

greatdevourer
May 31, 2006, 06:11 PM
Well, I'm not happy about the price of 360 games ($60 USD). In fact, my impulse spending for 360 games is much lower than it was on my Xbox. I buy fewer games and am more critical of what I buy. I've said this so many times that I'm sounding like a broken record, but here in Europe, $60 is cheap. Stop your whinging

Dagless
May 31, 2006, 06:25 PM
I've said this so many times that I'm sounding like a broken record, but here in Europe, $60 is cheap. Stop your whinging

Yes, but wages and stuff are lower over there. it all compensates. I think.
Either way round, people complained like **** when N64 games cost £50 on the high street... now it's Microsoft and Sony charging the big bucks and the Sony fans think it's alright.
I love when tables turn. It humours me greatly.

kuyu
May 31, 2006, 06:58 PM
Sony's motivation here is not to win the console race. They'd like to, of course, but Sony's long run strategy has barely changed in 25 years...

Betamax -Proprietary format, thus they control production.
Mini Disc -Proprietary formay, thus they control production.
ATRAC3 - Proprietary formay, thus they control production.
Duo Stick - Proprietary formay, thus they control production.
Blu-Ray - you get the point...

Sony's goal in the technology sector is to control the production of media, period. They'd like nothing more than getting a piece of every media playing device, media disc, and media download in the world.

Blu-ray is the latest battle in their format war. Realize for a second that without them in the picture there never would have been a format war. Odd huh?

Oh, and HD-DVD discs and players are already in stores. Check your bestbuy.

Haoshiro
May 31, 2006, 07:01 PM
Is someone making the tired argument that for some reason to get a 360 you MUST have the WiFi adaptor and/or HD-DVD addon? That is ridiculous and whoever says it knows it is. I have a 360 Premium and do not have either of those and everything is fine and dandy. And you know what? I will probably never get those addons. If I find them in a bargain bin for like $20, sure... but I don't need them to enjoy the 360 at all.

Question is, will it be better for Sony to sell through it's target numbers and gain the debt, or would it be worse for them to NOT sell through as expected. They better hope the PS3 software attach rate is as high as 360.

Abulia
May 31, 2006, 07:30 PM
I've said this so many times that I'm sounding like a broken record, but here in Europe, $60 is cheap. Stop your whingingSure, I'll stop "whinging" as soon as you stop whining about my "whinging." :p

Abulia
May 31, 2006, 07:31 PM
Is someone making the tired argument that for some reason to get a 360 you MUST have the WiFi adaptor and/or HD-DVD addon? That is ridiculous and whoever says it knows it is. I have a 360 Premium and do not have either of those and everything is fine and dandy. And you know what? I will probably never get those addons. If I find them in a bargain bin for like $20, sure... but I don't need them to enjoy the 360 at all.

Question is, will it be better for Sony to sell through it's target numbers and gain the debt, or would it be worse for them to NOT sell through as expected. They better hope the PS3 software attach rate is as high as 360.Well said. However I think their points are that to create a similiarly equipped 360 you'd have to include the WiFi, HD-DVD add-on, etc, to equal the offerings of the PS3.

And that's all well and good, assuming you want all those things.

That's the nice thing about Microsoft's strategy: You only buy the stuff you want/can afford.

Sony, on the other hand, rams it down your throat. Bend over and say "thank you." :)

zap2
May 31, 2006, 07:33 PM
A 360 even worth a crap costs 499.99. A Wii is possibly 250. That's 750.00 right there (USD). Add a wifi adapter to the 360, that's 850.00. Add a HDDVD drive to the 360, that's at LEAST 950.00, if not more likely 1050.00.

So, what's exactly cheaper? Yeah, I thought so. You can't compare a crappy 360 with no features to a PS3 with all the features.


I don't need cell, or want it, nor do i want a Blue-Ray drive or HD-DVD, but wait sony is locking me into those things(not HD-DVD, but lets say its the same idea) MS is not using the 360 as a tool to win a format war, Sony is.. i don't like to be used as a tool.. niether do my dollars:p

As for the Price
Low end 360-299(add my memory stick for saving games)
plus a Wii-under 250

PS3-599( the low end PS3 is a rip, because your playing blue-ray but you don't *really* get it, no one in the right mind would buy it)

Add in the fact that MS/Nintendo games SMOKE any PS3 games and you buy a.. Wii60!!

Dagless
May 31, 2006, 07:36 PM
Sure, I'll stop "whinging" as soon as you stop whining about my "whinging." :p

hah I never noticed the pond changes Whinging into Whining! I've heard the 2, I've used the 2 but never put them to countries. mad!

Anyways. Heres a pic I took of my SP with a newly placed Apple sticker. Or is it Apples attempt to break into the handheld market?

Dagless
May 31, 2006, 07:40 PM
I don't need cell, or want it, nor do i want a Blue-Ray drive or HD-DVD, but wait sony is locking me into those things(not HD-DVD, but lets say its the same idea) MS is not using the 360 as a tool to win a format war, Sony is.. i don't like to be used as a tool.. niether do my dollars:p

As for the Price
Low end 360-299(add my memory stick for saving games)
plus a Wii-under 250

PS3-599( the low end PS3 is a rip, because your playing blue-ray but you don't *really* get it, no one in the right mind would buy it)

Add in the fact that MS/Nintendo games SMOKE any PS3 games and you buy a.. Wii60!!

I never saw it like that. Using us as a tool to get their shoddy proprietary systems out the door and established. I mean, Memory Stick Duo? Why did they invent that when SD and the other cards all fill it's needs already, at a lower price too?

I wouldn't say MS/Nintendo games smoke any PS3 game. There are some good Sony games, just most of the franchises make it to the other systems. which will happen at such lightning speed if the PS3 doesn't sell well. Those 3rd parties will need financing some way or another! Oh look, the 360 has similar specs, PORT! hmm, but we could make this fighting/racing/survival horror game much more involving if we port to the Wii. Cheerio!
Just being a realist. If Sony had a lower price they'd have dominance. Since they likely wont *looks at PSP and PS3 bad press* those devs will flock elsewhere. I know I would.

zap2
May 31, 2006, 07:43 PM
The PS3 is capable of high calculations. So what? So was the G5 Powermac. Clusters of them have made some of the world's fastest Supercomputers. Imagine what the cell processor would be capable of when creating a large cluster of them. The data that could be broken down by it would be vast.



I'll buy 1000s of PS3 to make a supercomputer.. thats a good idea, so your comparing a PowerMac G5 to a PS3.. lets see who is going to win.. how big is your PS3 hardrive;)

Haoshiro
May 31, 2006, 07:44 PM
Well said. However I think their points are that to create a similiarly equipped 360 you'd have to include the WiFi, HD-DVD add-on, etc, to equal the offerings of the PS3.


Well the people that makes these arguments need to preface their comments then "For ME to compare the systems I have to pay more/the same" or "For anyone REQUIRING WiFi and/or HD movies"

I could definitely use WiFi, it'd be nice. Need, though? No. When did people start thinking all this was a requirement suddenly? Because DS, Wii, and PS3 "Premium" will include WiFi? Whatever. :P

Oh, and of course these points have been made in a bunch of other threads. Even I am beating a dead horse at this point! lol. ;)

Sony has been smoking that "this is not a game machine" weed since the PS2 and it's complete rubbish. They make money on game software, they attend E3 and their presentation is focused on playing games on the system. Last I checked I didn't see Philips on the floor pushing their home entertainment devices with hour long press conferences, or even Dell there touting how you can get a $400 PC from them with Linux.

There attempts to elavate themselves above the competition just make them sound like idiots, because they have to lie to do it. Heck, last I heard many people were running linux on there Xbox and using it as a "home entertainment" device rather then just a game console.

2nyRiggz
May 31, 2006, 07:46 PM
What? the next level is doing mroe than gaming? So don't you mean it's a computer? the next level for consoles is not being a computer. Why would it be? consoles and computers are side by side, one keeps its specs dormant for years whilst more optimised code is developed for it, one keeps evolving.
The PS3 has the worst aspects to both machines. It's expensive and it can't be upgraded. It's a crippled computer. It's like buying a PowerMac with the CPU, GPU and memory glued into place with no slots for upgrade.


Last time i heard it was able to be upgraded...check on that. If they claim to be next level then good for them...we'll see when it hits stores. As like every other "PS3 sucks" thread i'll be here to disrupt ya'll "kill the sony" march.

Sony always talking *beep*...we'll see though

to the guy talking about MS/nintendo game smoking out any sony game:confused: ...where the hell have you been for the past 10years.

Bless

zap2
May 31, 2006, 07:49 PM
I

I wouldn't say MS/Nintendo games smoke any PS3 game. There are some good Sony games, just most of the franchises make it to the other systems.

When i say MS/Ninendo games, i'm talking about games that are only made for one console.. MS has Halo 3/2/1 and Nintendo has Mario, Zelda, Metriod, Super Smash Bro(really just all of them together)

To date there has not been ONE game sony made that made me want a PS2/2 or PSP at ALL. The other gaming system.. the have, i bought xBox almost only for Halo 1+2(i end up find other good games but Halo 1+2 started me out) Please if there are some good PS2 only game i'd love to hear about them!

Dagless
May 31, 2006, 08:03 PM
Please if there are some good PS2 only game i'd love to hear about them!

Honestly the only Sony near-enough-first-party-to-stop-any-non-sony-ports I barely enjoyed were Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. Even then they came out yeeears of each other. It's pretty much like the Zelda situation with Nintendo (barring the handheld versions). We had Windwaker, it was good. people liked it. then about 4 years later out pops a sequel which (hopefully) will be good.
Personally, no matter how good Zelda is I wouldn't buy a console just for it.
Katamari is just another experimental game, there are plenty of those around already, people got excited about it because it was Sony's first real "crazy" game. I mentioned the little silly games before, but the Cube had many too. The PSP version was a little lackluster. Maybe it was the controls. wasn't nice.

Tekken, GT, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, GTA and recently Devil May Cry, all Sony's love puppies have fled to other machines.

I could definitely use WiFi, it'd be nice. Need, though? No. When did people start thinking all this was a requirement suddenly? Because DS, Wii, and PS3 "Premium" will include WiFi? Whatever. :P

Thats nice, it's not a requirement for you but I know of at least another person here who needs it. I think Praxis lives somewhere with a WiFi only connection. Like me, to get a LAN cable to my room from the router would be a massive job.
http://satansam.co.uk/byebyewinter/images/IMG_1782.jpg
See the bottom left window? see the top right one? the router faces the end wall and my powerbook faces the end too. it's complete polar opposites. I need WiFi to get any internet at all. Frankly, for the extremely cheap manufacturing cost I think it's realistic for all consoles and handhelds to have 802 built in from now on.

As for the PS3 being able to be upgraded? It's only the HDD. You think they'll be stocking upgraded CPU's and GPU's in shops? Void warranty? splitting up the market?
No. It's as upgradable as any other console, as the PS1. You can stick a varied capacity medium in there but it sorta stops there too.

2nyRiggz
May 31, 2006, 08:13 PM
^And whats wrong with that..its a console like you said and can be upgraded like one....you are trying to make it seem as if it can't be at all(of course i don't expect it to be upgraded like a full blown computer)...all i can do is shake my head...i really dont give a darn about the what else it can do...my main concern is it can do what the PS1/2 before it has done: bring the good games.

What GT are you talking about leaving sony?

Sony 1st party games are top notch i think....i enjoyed them all


Bless

Haoshiro
May 31, 2006, 08:14 PM
Tekken, GT, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, GTA and recently Devil May Cry, all Sony's love puppies have fled to other machines.

The main series entries for Tekken, GT, FF, and MGS are still Sony exclusive last I checked. And do you mean GT as in Gran Turismo? Sony owns Polyphony, who makes that game. I've heard DMC rumors... but nothing official yet (?).

Thats nice, it's not a requirement for you but I know of at least another person here who needs it. I think Praxis lives somewhere with a WiFi only connection. Like me, to get a LAN cable to my room from the router would be a massive job.

Just because people like you doesn't mean it is needed to be standard in the consoles. I'm sure the majority of home networks still have wired access (though this is changing fast).

For those that really need it, just get a Wireless Access Point. You can pick those up pretty easily for $50 or less. Wireless access from wired networks, or Wired access to wireless networks. A simply and effective solution. ;) Also cheaper.

Wired networks are still better in terms of speed and reliability. Wireless are more convenient. LAN gaming lately has been a 50/50 split of Wired/Wireless machines and the the Wireless machines really can't host the games due to network lag. I'd prefer my house to have a built in Gigabit network over wireless (even dual-g), but wireless is just more convenient. Speaking of that... perhaps I will do that! Summer project, HURRAH!

I notice you have brick walls... but surely your internal walls aren't brick as well!? ;)

Dagless
May 31, 2006, 08:27 PM
What GT are you talking about leaving sony?

GT: Advance.
Tekken Advance also.
Final Fantasy on all major systems last time I checked (apart from DS and PSP at the moment). And Sega, of course.
MGS has been spotted sneaking around on the ol Xbox and the Gamecube, hinted port of MGS4 for the 360 and Kojima saying he was fed up with the PS3.

I notice you have brick walls... but surely your internal walls aren't brick as well!? ;)

Yup. solid as a... house? which is why, as my MSN people list know, I get cut off so damn often.
Wired is better. sooo much better. But this house is old now, was built before we had a PC in 1994 so we didn't compensate for networks. it wasn't until 2000 that we actually set up our network and 2004 until it went beyond 1 room! Wireless Access Points are no good. The link between the downstairs and upstairs will still be limited by the crippling 802 speeds.

For now. until I build my own place WiFi is the only way. ditto for my girlfriend. I can't speak for any other MR people. probably best if they own up themselves.

2nyRiggz
May 31, 2006, 08:31 PM
GT: Advance.
Tekken Advance also.
Final Fantasy on all major systems last time I checked (apart from DS and PSP at the moment). And Sega, of course.
MGS has been spotted sneaking around on the ol Xbox and the Gamecube, hinted port of MGS4 for the 360 and Kojima saying he was fed up with the PS3.


Haven't you notice that sony gets 1st dibs or the best dibs of the games you just called?....MGS4 is a rumor and has not been confirmed....The major release of FF is always on Sony consoles....then break offs/spinoffs head to other systems..

Bless

Abulia
May 31, 2006, 08:41 PM
Thats nice, it's not a requirement for you but I know of at least another person here who needs it. I think Praxis lives somewhere with a WiFi only connection. Like me, to get a LAN cable to my room from the router would be a massive job.Have none of you seriously heard of a wireless bridge?

Hell, I was beta testing Xbox Live over 4 YEARS AGO on a wireless connection! $70 and done!

So all consoles need to have wireless built in to conform to the specification requirements of jimmi and Praxis? :rolleyes: Come on guys, this is silly.

Haoshiro
May 31, 2006, 08:59 PM
GT: Advance.
Tekken Advance also.
Final Fantasy on all major systems last time I checked (apart from DS and PSP at the moment). And Sega, of course.
MGS has been spotted sneaking around on the ol Xbox and the Gamecube, hinted port of MGS4 for the 360 and Kojima saying he was fed up with the PS3.

GT: Advance (or Advanced GTA in Japan) is not Gran Turismo, FYI.

And again, none of those are the main series entrants. FF:CC hardly even counts. Seeing the classic NES/SNES FF games on GBA/DS is nice, though.

Kojima has also said he will not be bringing MGS4 to 360. He has said PS3 only and then he is finished with MGS completely. Other interviews make it sound like he wants to move to Wii afterwards.

Yup. solid as a... house? which is why, as my MSN people list know, I get cut off so damn often.

Are you 100% sure?? I mean, it is your house... but internal brick walls a real rarity. External walls, sure... but not using sheetrock/plaster/wood on internal walls is something I have not personally seen ('cept maybe in the days before electricity... for which I wasn't alive). If you have electric outlets in the walls then they can't be brick. Unless, like my coffee shop, they are on the outside of the walls with tubing covering the wire run down the walls (darn cinderblock one-room buildings).

mrgreen4242
May 31, 2006, 10:02 PM
That's not correct. The $399 Premium XBox 360 does not include a WiFi adapter; that's an extra $99. Meanwhile, the $599 PS3 does include WiFi.


Whoops. My mistake... for some reason I was thinking WiFi when it's just wireless controllers.

I'm not responding to the rest for a variety of reasons. :)

Also, just for the record, I hardly feel that not having WiFi makes or breaks the system. I mean, wiring up your home theatre area is becoming a must-do anyways, and you're not going to be moving the system around, so just plug it in. :p [Not aimed at you Praxis - just other comments in this thread.]

michaelltd
May 31, 2006, 10:26 PM
MGS has been spotted sneaking around on the ol Xbox and the Gamecube, hinted port of MGS4 for the 360 and Kojima saying he was fed up with the PS3.


I wish! MGS4 is the only game that's been announced exclusively on PS3 that I really really want. If it was ported to Xbox 360, it would save myself a load of money!

I'm still hopeful that they will release Metal Gear Solid 4: Substistance-er-something for Xbox 360.

DEXTERITY
May 31, 2006, 10:38 PM
And the latest quote to add to the list of stupid things Sony executives keep saying....

Harrison states: "We believe that the PS3 will be the place where our users play games, watch films, browse the Web, and use other [home] computer functions," said Harrison. "The PlayStation 3 is a computer. We do not need the PC."


the PS3 will never replace a computer nor come close to it..

Pistol Pete
May 31, 2006, 11:30 PM
Thats nice, it's not a requirement for you but I know of at least another person here who needs it. I think Praxis lives somewhere with a WiFi only connection. Like me, to get a LAN cable to my room from the router would be a massive job.
http://satansam.co.uk/byebyewinter/images/IMG_1782.jpg
See the bottom left window? see the top right one? the router faces the end wall and my powerbook faces the end too. it's complete polar opposites. I need WiFi to get any internet at all. Frankly, for the extremely cheap manufacturing cost I think it's realistic for all consoles and handhelds to have 802 built in from now on.



airport express :rolleyes:

anyways....cant we all get along?

takao
Jun 1, 2006, 12:12 AM
Are you 100% sure?? I mean, it is your house... but internal brick walls a real rarity. External walls, sure... but not using sheetrock/plaster/wood on internal walls is something I have not personally seen ('cept maybe in the days before electricity... for which I wasn't alive). If you have electric outlets in the walls then they can't be brick. Unless, like my coffee shop, they are on the outside of the walls with tubing covering the wire run down the walls (darn cinderblock one-room buildings).


:confused: while we have sheetrock (never heard that before) and plaster wood walls between rooms in the upper floor on the lower floors we have all sorts of different walls.. some filled with red colored bricks others with the more convenient Ytong concrete blocks or in the cellar in the oldest parts even stones

sam10685
Jun 1, 2006, 01:01 AM
No, that theory is wrong. F-

yeah dude, so wow... i'm no mathematics major or anything--infact, i think math is incredibly stupid. but i'm pretty certain of two things. one; the Wii will be $199. two; the price of a Wii ($199) plus the price of a high-end xbox 360 ($399) equals $598 thus confirming the statement that "Wii+360<PS3" is indeed true. if u still object, i don't know what else to say.;)

Counterfit
Jun 1, 2006, 01:44 AM
anyways....cant we all get along?
No.

Dagless
Jun 1, 2006, 05:42 AM
Are you 100% sure?? I mean, it is your house... but internal brick walls a real rarity. External walls, sure... but not using sheetrock/plaster/wood on internal walls is something I have not personally seen ('cept maybe in the days before electricity... for which I wasn't alive). If you have electric outlets in the walls then they can't be brick. Unless, like my coffee shop, they are on the outside of the walls with tubing covering the wire run down the walls (darn cinderblock one-room buildings).

I was there was it was being built ;)
The only thing the inner walls have that the outer walls don't is some strange metal mesh. god knows what that's for I'll ask pops when he gets home. It was designed to be a tough and soundproof (with foam) house, keeps the insurance down and lets the volume creep up. we can't do much renovating. If someone needs a room extending then they're near enough buggered.

Anywho. Well if you fancy installing a wired connection be my guest. we had an evaluation done from that local computer shop I bang on about. would have taken at least a week to get every important room wired up, a crap load of cash and just a load of hassle. and outdoor cable that goes around the house was considered but deemed a "security risk". anyways! Why am I trying to justify this? An 802.11g+b WiFi card for the PC costs £9.99, it probably costs about £5 to manufacture. there is only 1 direction that price is going to go over the next few months/years... if I need WiFi then I bloody need WiFi. There's no 2 ways around it without costing hundreds of ££'s more so Microsoft doesn't need to stick a £5 wifi card in their console.

Dagless
Jun 1, 2006, 05:43 AM
yeah dude, so wow... i'm no mathematics major or anything--infact, i think math is incredibly stupid. but i'm pretty certain of two things. one; the Wii will be $199. two; the price of a Wii ($199) plus the price of a high-end xbox 360 ($399) equals $598 thus confirming the statement that "Wii+360<PS3" is indeed true. if u still object, i don't know what else to say.;)

I think you missed my later message. I won't write it again. You can read it yourself.

Haoshiro
Jun 1, 2006, 06:17 AM
I was there was it was being built ;)

Well, fair enough! :D So... electric outlets... how does that work in your setup? Sounds like that'd be a bugger... not being able to put anything in the walls, etc. But perhaps you have hollow false walls? Unlikely if it was built to be a dang studio what with being sound proof and all! lol. Standard construction must just be a lot different in the USA, where everything is made... you know.... worse.

If I decide to wire my house (gigabit), I'd be doing it myself. I've done it before. Have all the tools, just would need the face plates and wiring... and of course a gigabit router.

I'd definitely have preferred 360 have Wi-Fi, but I think, as a requirement, it was definitely not necessary as the majority do have wired connections available (likely why MS made the decision anyway). I have not personally had any good experience with a card as cheap as you suggest... you get what you pay for in wireless has been my experience, actually. Signal strength varies a lot between cards I've used. MS had a better reason not to include one, even at $5 they'd lose millions more money on every system sold. And if they intended to put quality 802.11g/a from Intel it could have cost them upwards of $10/ea, every penny adds up when you sell at these volumes [at below cost].

clykins90
Jun 1, 2006, 07:36 AM
OK, first off lemme say i am NOT a sony fanboy. I don't own a PSP or a PS2. However, why is everyone ditching the price of the PS3?

Theres an article on Arstechnica thats great for anyone whos interested in the console wars. Anyway, for what it does, PS3 is a great value. The problem is they got the wrong audience. If they took out the blu-ray drive, they could probably sell it at a significantly lower price ($450 or even $400!)

Sony is taking a big risk with the PS3, if they lose the Blu-ray/HD-DVD war, that would be horrible for PS3. If they'd gone the microsoft route, a bunch of things would happen. Since the PS3 would have been a better value if they could've sold it at an Xbox 360 price, Microsoft would've been forced to drop it (even a little bit), and Sony could eventually come out with a blu-ray player for the PS3 and still push the format. $599 is a LOT of money for a system, but it isn't just a console. What they SHOULD do is make the $499 PS3 $399, take out blu-ray, put in all the cool-guy features (besides blu-ray) that the $599 version had, then leave it at that. There is no way any video game in the next 3-4 years is gonna need 50GB of storage on a disc!

takao
Jun 1, 2006, 07:37 AM
offtopic:

Well, fair enough! :D So... electric outlets... how does that work in your setup? Sounds like that'd be a bugger... not being able to put anything in the walls, etc. But perhaps you have hollow false walls? Unlikely if it was built to be a dang studio what with being sound proof and all! lol. Standard construction must just be a lot different in the USA, where everything is made... you know.... worse.

under the plaster ?
in our house we have grey colored pipes behind the faces plates through which you can pull cables etc. etc.
speaking about it i wonder how you can have power outlets on balconies or non inner walls etc. then ;)

If I decide to wire my house (gigabit), I'd be doing it myself. I've done it before. Have all the tools, just would need the face plates and wiring... and of course a gigabit router.

well around here only few peoples have ethernet wiring at home ... rewiring is a lot of work
personally i know one who has ethernet outlets on the walls and that's a brand new building finished not even 5 years ago

even on university a lot of ethernet wiring is done through canals put on top of the plaster...

Piarco
Jun 1, 2006, 07:43 AM
I was there was it was being built ;)
The only thing the inner walls have that the outer walls don't is some strange metal mesh. god knows what that's for I'll ask pops when he gets home.
It'll be for the plastering - I've been in a couple of houses that were being built with internal brick walls, and the meshing is generally used as a base for plastering. Will definitely add to the lack of wifi range though. Can't beat a bit of internal brick for soundproofing! :D

Anyway, back onto the topic at hand folks...

ManchesterTrix
Jun 1, 2006, 08:00 AM
I can't imagine the cell costing more then the high 100 dollar range to make. Its based off of the G5 which is now a pretty old chip now. Even with it's minor improvements that seems high. I really think sony isn't losing too much money on the PS3. Although now that I think of it that GPU might be the most expensive part and the blu-ray lazar.

The Cell is not a G5 with minor improvements.

greatdevourer
Jun 1, 2006, 09:45 AM
The Cell is not a G5 with minor improvements. Exactly. It's a G5 missing bits with a few minor improvements in other areas

ManchesterTrix
Jun 1, 2006, 09:48 AM
Exactly. It's a G5 missing bits with a few minor improvements in other areas

I love the smell of FUD in the morning. Seriously, I think the PS3 is stupid. It's overpriced for a gaming console, the Blu-Ray thing is silly, and the Cell isn't all it's cracked up to be, but it's not a "G5 missing bits with a few minor improvements." It's ******** and incorrect to say so.

GFLPraxis
Jun 1, 2006, 10:03 AM
Exactly. It's a G5 missing bits with a few minor improvements in other areas

Completely and absolutely mistaken. The processors are not even related other than the fact that they are both PowerPCs. They're related in the same way a G3 and G5 are.

In fact, the Cell is one of the XBox 360's three processors (it's actually the same processor, just one instead of three), with eight sub-processors tacked on that are really good at certain types of work and heavily optimized, but also suck at other types of work. Cell is more closely related to the 360 than a G5. But very, very different.

GFLPraxis
Jun 1, 2006, 10:04 AM
I mean, wiring up your home theatre area is becoming a must-do anyways, and you're not going to be moving the system around, so just plug it in. :p [Not aimed at you Praxis - just other comments in this thread.]

My router is in another room, and I'm not ripping new holes in the wall just for a PS3 :p

clykins90
Jun 1, 2006, 10:59 AM
I love the smell of FUD in the morning. Seriously, I think the PS3 is stupid. It's overpriced for a gaming console, the Blu-Ray thing is silly, and the Cell isn't all it's cracked up to be, but it's not a "G5 missing bits with a few minor improvements." It's ******** and incorrect to say so.

http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell0_v2.html

You're right about the blu-ray thing though, see my post above. However, the cell isn't all its cracked up to be? Maybe its not a revolution in gaming, but the Cell is one heckuva technology.

MacRumorUser
Jun 1, 2006, 11:08 AM
The Cell has a lot of potential, only thing is NO MATTER what SONY call the PS3 - it will only ever be thought of as a games console.

Yes it may play BluRay, yes it may have some form of crippled linux, but forget all that *****, it will predominantly be in the bedrooms of teenage boys around the world connected to a 14" or 21" CRT TV.

And at €520/620 (in Ireland) Sony are gonna have a considerable challenge to prove to any parent that little Johnny should have that spent on them. Let alone €75-85 per game.....

Just because you add a load of fancy tech **** into your machine, doesnt mean it will come out on top and win. It just means your wasting money pumping out technology that most people will never use and by the time it will start to be accepted your already promoting your next console and we'll be talking about the next big thing.......

Sony WONT lose this generation, but they will lose a good percentage of customers, and the REAL battle for who will be king, will be in 5 years time.....

2nyRiggz
Jun 1, 2006, 11:14 AM
^The Phantom is the king of consoles...don't you know that:)

Oh and the xbox90 is the king of handhelds.....get with the times people!


Bless

mkaake
Jun 1, 2006, 11:28 AM
He's right though - this gen is just setting the stage for a massive battle next gen - I don't think Sony can maintain their market lead this time. They've got some good games, but that price really is going to kill them. And the bugger of it all is that it'll be a really nice console. Really nice. But expensive... that's the hard part to get over. The PS2 wasn't made what it is by the tech people who throw money at gadgets - it was made by the teenagers and preteens who loved the games and pushed their parents to buy them. $200 - most parent's wouldn't choke over spending that on a christmas gift (though some would). $300 - starting to push the bounds. $400 - ouch - not too many parents left willing to fork that out for a single gift. There's a chance if it's for more than one kid (i.e. the 'family' gift). 500 is just getting wacky, though there are a few left who will spoil their kids because they think it's necessary... of course, the kids who are spoiled that way surely won't want the $500 ps3. They'll want the $600 version.

And some of them will get it... but not nearly so many as will get PS2's, Wii's, or 360's.

And it'll really make for an interesting battle next time - I think all of the consoles will be sitting closer to each other in terms of market share next time around...

GFLPraxis
Jun 1, 2006, 11:40 AM
http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell0_v2.html

You're right about the blu-ray thing though, see my post above. However, the cell isn't all its cracked up to be? Maybe its not a revolution in gaming, but the Cell is one heckuva technology.

Arstechnica has already taken that apart. It's very exaggurated. The Cell has advantages in some areas of computing, and heavy disadvantages in others. Further, that article is talking about a Cell found in servers.

The Cell is useful, and has several significant advantages, but it's not the all-powerful processor a billion times better than anything we've ever seen before thing that the article you posted makes it out to be.

At any rate, Playstation 3 fanboys shouldn't get all flush over the idea that the Xenon will struggle on non-graphics code. However bad off Xenon will be in that department, the PS3's Cell will probably be worse. The Cell has only one PPE to the Xenon's three, which means that developers will have to cram all their game control, AI, and physics code into at most two threads that are sharing a very narrow execution core with no instruction window. (Don't bother suggesting that the PS3 can use its SPEs for branch-intensive code, because the SPEs lack branch prediction entirely.) Furthermore, the PS3's L2 is only 512K, which is half the size of the Xenon's L2. So the PS3 doesn't get much help with branches in the cache department. In short, the PS3 may fare a bit worse than the Xenon on non-graphics code, but on the upside it will probably fare a bit better on graphics code because of the seven SPEs.

Now since then there has been a lot of improvement in Cell-based physics, but it's still important to note that Cell isn't 10x better than XBox 360.

Haoshiro
Jun 1, 2006, 12:21 PM
offtopic:under the plaster ?
in our house we have grey colored pipes behind the faces plates through which you can pull cables etc. etc.
speaking about it i wonder how you can have power outlets on balconies or non inner walls etc. then ;)

Then you are talking false fronts on the wall is all, which is something I asked about. Most houses around here are built with 2x4 frames, 16" apart, plywood applied to the outside, sheetrocked on the inside. This makes the walls hollow, which are then filled with insulation foam. That also means installing anything into the walls (including networking the home) is relatively easy if you have the proper tools.

Dagless
Jun 1, 2006, 01:35 PM
http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/Cell0_v2.html

You're right about the blu-ray thing though, see my post above. However, the cell isn't all its cracked up to be? Maybe its not a revolution in gaming, but the Cell is one heckuva technology.

It's a CPU like any other. Revolutionary in terms of computer-use maybe. But for a system that's main aim is to play games? I dunno. Personally this sounds like the N64's "It's 64 BIT!!!" all over again. A hyped CPU that really is just a CPU. Revolutions in games will come in new forms of interaction and immersion. Virtual or augmented reality and that. A higher clock speed does what? Knock loading times down to nothing? no. Calculate more physics objects? yes.

*sorry I wrote this hours ago but lost connection ;) *

Dagless
Jun 1, 2006, 04:22 PM
Woo, louder voices are heard better. My brother moaned and shouted galore when I tested the wifi signal strength of my PowerBook in his bedroom. Turns out I get such a weak signal that it's negligible. So we're off to get one of those WiFi booster things.

Thing is... what are they? A look on Froogle brings up next to nothing, just mother boards and routers.
Can you get plug-in mini boosters that are unobtrusive? I could finally play DS games online in my room :D what should I be looking for?

MacRumorUser
Jun 1, 2006, 04:42 PM
Woo, louder voices are heard better. My brother moaned and shouted galore when I tested the wifi signal strength of my PowerBook in his bedroom. Turns out I get such a weak signal that it's negligible. So we're off to get one of those WiFi booster things.

Thing is... what are they? A look on Froogle brings up next to nothing, just mother boards and routers.
Can you get plug-in mini boosters that are unobtrusive? I could finally play DS games online in my room :D what should I be looking for?

You could get an airport express basestation and configure it to be a booster access point.

GFLPraxis
Jun 1, 2006, 05:05 PM
And the latest quote to add to the list of stupid things Sony executives keep saying....

Harrison states: "We believe that the PS3 will be the place where our users play games, watch films, browse the Web, and use other [home] computer functions," said Harrison. "The PlayStation 3 is a computer. We do not need the PC."


the PS3 will never replace a computer nor come close to it..

Well, it does run Linux, so technically it is one.

GFLPraxis
Jun 1, 2006, 05:07 PM
yeah dude, so wow... i'm no mathematics major or anything--infact, i think math is incredibly stupid. but i'm pretty certain of two things. one; the Wii will be $199. two; the price of a Wii ($199) plus the price of a high-end xbox 360 ($399) equals $598 thus confirming the statement that "Wii+360<PS3" is indeed true. if u still object, i don't know what else to say.;)


Except that the high end XBox 360 is equivilant to the low end PS3. Neither have HDMI, both have 20 GB hard drives, and the PS3 has Blu-ray over it.

Last I checked, $499 < $598.

Also, last I checked, the Wii's price had not been confirmed. It could be $250.

Also, anyone who thinks math is "stupid" doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. You realize that your current PS2/GameCube/XBox is doing Calculus and Linear Algebra on a constant basis, right? As is your home PC and your Mac? I'd hate to see the world without math.

Further, Jimmi said,
Sorry I'm running off UK prices. Where I think the Wii60 costs more than just 1 PS3.

The Wii60 is £10 less than a PS3. But I'd need the wifi adapter. Wii60= £450.

sam10685
Jun 1, 2006, 06:05 PM
The Cell has a lot of potential, only thing is NO MATTER what SONY call the PS3 - it will only ever be thought of as a games console.

Yes it may play BluRay, yes it may have some form of crippled linux, but forget all that *****, it will predominantly be in the bedrooms of teenage boys around the world connected to a 14" or 21" CRT TV.

And at €520/620 (in Ireland) Sony are gonna have a considerable challenge to prove to any parent that little Johnny should have that spent on them. Let alone €75-85 per game.....

Just because you add a load of fancy tech **** into your machine, doesnt mean it will come out on top and win. It just means your wasting money pumping out technology that most people will never use and by the time it will start to be accepted your already promoting your next console and we'll be talking about the next big thing.......

Sony WONT lose this generation, but they will lose a good percentage of customers, and the REAL battle for who will be king, will be in 5 years time.....

sony is going to crash and Burn. 'nuff said.

greatdevourer
Jun 1, 2006, 06:26 PM
Well, it does run Linux, so technically it is one. If we're going into technicalities here, then that means that an iPod is a computer. A monitor is a computer. A pocket calculator is a computer. Doesn't mean I'd replace my PB or Cube with it ;)

Haoshiro
Jun 1, 2006, 06:45 PM
If we're going into technicalities here, then that means that an iPod is a computer. A monitor is a computer. A pocket calculator is a computer. Doesn't mean I'd replace my PB or Cube with it ;)

Perhaps applying the moniker "computer" to anything has is computerized or has a processor is going overboard... lol.

Linux can be put on just about anything that is computerized... even Microwaves and refridgerators have micro kernel OSes these days.

I guess that means the term is completely unimportant, even to the PS3.

Every friggin' game console has been a "computer" and some level of operating system (you know, so it could operate). If they want to be used for general computing then they've got to release official productivity software as well as a keyboard and mouse.

Total convergence isn't here yet and it'll be quite some time before using your TV as a computer monitor to be productive and browse the internet is the norm. If that is what PS3 is supposed to do then it is here to soon and will definitely not do it good enough (again, because it's too soon).

Heck, last I checked we didn't even have REALLY reliable wireless Keyboard/Mouse sets yet. I have a new Logitech set and the reception is ridiculously retarted. Makes no sense either, we have had wireless controllers that perform amazingly (WaveBird anyone?), you'd think solid wireless k/m sets would be all over. But they are not, a good reason again is because it's too soon to consider HTPCs that are used for productivity to be the norm. My MX1000 mouse is near perfect, though... so we are getting there.

When the standard TV set in a home is a 32" 1080p60 HDTV, well then we will be ready... when is *that* going to happen, though?

mode
Jun 1, 2006, 07:20 PM
No way, Sony.

Remove that absurdly expensive and unnecessary Blu-Ray optical drive and I'll consider buying one then.

GFLPraxis
Jun 2, 2006, 12:11 AM
If we're going into technicalities here, then that means that an iPod is a computer. A monitor is a computer. A pocket calculator is a computer. Doesn't mean I'd replace my PB or Cube with it ;)

False analogy. The PS3 literally boots Linux- the Linux desktop. Running on the PowerPC core of the Cell, with 512 MB of RAM, an NVidia GPU, and a 60 GB hard drive. And it ships with a full set of dev tools and cell-optimized compilers. That's a PC.

evilgEEk
Jun 2, 2006, 02:35 AM
I think it's ridiculous to pay over $300 for a gaming console to begin with, but I'm not a "hard-core" gamer, and I'm cheap. ;)

But even aside from that, one of my main concerns about the PS3 is that Sony is using it to push the HD media war, as has already been mentioned in this thread. They have every right to push Blu-Ray if they want to, but my concern lies in what if HD DVD wins the format war? If HD-DVD comes out on top (for the record I hope it doesn't) then a year or two down the road you've got a gaming console you had to sell a kidney for and you can't even play the current releases of HD DVD discs that are out at your local movie shop.

Too risky for me. But, again, I'm cheap. I thought the PS2 was absurdly overpriced as well. ;)

Uma888
Jun 2, 2006, 06:00 AM
Best quote to laugh out loud:It's a SUPERCOMPUTER! :D


Yes, Every home needs a supercomputer

Haoshiro
Jun 2, 2006, 06:22 AM
False analogy. The PS3 literally boots Linux- the Linux desktop. Running on the PowerPC core of the Cell, with 512 MB of RAM, an NVidia GPU, and a 60 GB hard drive. And it ships with a full set of dev tools and cell-optimized compilers. That's a PC.

A lot of this is pure speculation until the system is released.

512MB RAM? Isn't 256MB of that on the GPU?

The power of the "computer" or the software it runs on top of the OS (like a desktop GUI) doesn't change the analogy or make it wrong. Not it might not be fair, considering one would not even be considered PDA class while the other is deskop class. On that I definitely agree.

But at this point you are repeating things you've been told or heard and happen to believe. I happen to not believe "it ships with a full set of dev tools and cell-optimized compilers." - it hasn't shipped, so either one of us could be correct, it just seems much more likely that it won't. Look at the PSP; Sony isn't exactly loving the homebrew but instead working to lock it out on the machine, why should I believe they will change their policy for PS3?

takao
Jun 2, 2006, 06:39 AM
brrrr... just the thought about developing under linux with 256mb ram makes *swap* me *swap* feel *swapswap* kinda *swap* bad
and the hd *swap* isn't going to be *swapswap* the fastest as well *swap*

i somehow doubt dev tools/standard linux desktop too untill i see it.. i guess linux on the ps3 will simply boil down to a modified kernel with completely custom gui

harveypooka
Jun 2, 2006, 06:41 AM
Sorry I'm running off UK prices. Where I think the Wii60 costs more than just 1 PS3.

The Wii60 is £10 less than a PS3. But I'd need the wifi adapter. Wii60= £450.

I thought the Wii was under £200!

Dagless
Jun 2, 2006, 06:52 AM
I thought the Wii was under £200!

360=270
+Wii=150
+360 wireless adapter=60
=£480

PS3=£430

Haoshiro
Jun 2, 2006, 07:29 AM
360=270
+Wii=150
+360 wireless adapter=60
=£480

PS3=£430

Man UK does get shived.

Xbox 360 Premium = 399$ / 214£
Xbox 360 Wi-Fi Adaptor = 99$ / 53£
Wii = 199$ / 107£
---
PlayStation 3 = 599$ / 321£
Wii60 = 598$ / 321£
Wii60 + WiFi = 697$ / 374£


But the prices you listed are a good 100£ (187$) more! If that is reality for UK, yikes!

harveypooka
Jun 2, 2006, 07:30 AM
360=270
+Wii=150
+360 wireless adapter=60
=£480

PS3=£430

Ahhhhhhhh. That's bloody excellent! Haha...well, seeing that the 360 will have been out for near a year, the games will be more prevalent and there'll be more players. I'm hoping the Wii is a hit with all age groups and that should make a more diverse gaming experience, especially online. PS3 *looks* like the Daddy, but hey, only time will tell!

Is anyone really thinking of buying a Wii AND a 360?

Haoshiro
Jun 2, 2006, 07:32 AM
Is anyone really thinking of buying a Wii AND a 360?

I planned to since before any of the systems were out, obviously before E3 or the PS3 price announcement.

I already have a 360 and intend on pre-ordering a Wii as soon as the price is announced (along with 2 more for my nephews).

harveypooka
Jun 2, 2006, 07:35 AM
I already have a 360 and intend on pre-ordering a Wii as soon as the price is announced (along with 2 more for my nephews).

I really want to play BioShock; I think that's for X360...
(http://www.sshock2.com/bioshock/showimage.asp?p=/bioshock/screenshots/3.jpg)

I need an HD TV first. I've got an aging Philips CRT; good picture and all but it's about 9 feet deep! Not sure whether to go for Plasma or LCD.

Piarco
Jun 2, 2006, 07:40 AM
Ahhhhhhhh. That's bloody excellent! Haha...well, seeing that the 360 will have been out for near a year, the games will be more prevalent and there'll be more players. I'm hoping the Wii is a hit with all age groups and that should make a more diverse gaming experience, especially online. PS3 *looks* like the Daddy, but hey, only time will tell!

Is anyone really thinking of buying a Wii AND a 360?

Yup! Already have the 360 and after E3 will be getting a Wii. Down to three things - the cost of the PS3, the fact they've dropped spec of the console, and finally the presentations around the Wii at E3 really wowed me. And I'm not a fan of Nintendo at all, but this console really looks fun! Oh, and factor in its excellent pricing and you've got a winner for the lounge.

I was going to get the PS3, but the price for the time being is hugely offputting. I'll wait a year or more before picking one up I think.

Haoshiro
Jun 2, 2006, 07:40 AM
I really want to play BioShock; I think that's for X360...
(http://www.sshock2.com/bioshock/showimage.asp?p=/bioshock/screenshots/3.jpg)

I need an HD TV first. I've got an aging Philips CRT; good picture and all but it's about 9 feet deep! Not sure whether to go for Plasma or LCD.

BioShock looks/sounds great. I loved System Shock 2.

You don't *have* to have an HDTV for 360, but it looks nicer (as does Dreamcast, PS2, GameCube, and Xbox, though!). You can even get a VGA cable for the 360, plug it directly into a monitor.

Someone could correct me on this if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure Plasma is organic and has a 5 year life span. Now that is a standard lifespan for a display, iirc, but the idea that the Plasma will "die" makes me uneasy, I'd go for LCD (and have).

Kimi
Jun 2, 2006, 07:46 AM
Man UK does get shived.

Xbox 360 Premium = 399$ / 214£
Xbox 360 Wi-Fi Adaptor = 99$ / 53£
Wii = 199$ / 107£
---
PlayStation 3 = 599$ / 321£
Wii60 = 598$ / 321£
Wii60 + WiFi = 697$ / 374£


But the prices you listed are a good 100£ (187$) more! If that is reality for UK, yikes!
Do the prices listed for the machines in the USA have tax included in them? I read a while ago that once you take off VAT and import duties than the PS3 cost about $10 more than in the USA.


Another thing, some one said something about most homes having a wired network. Everyone I know that has a wired network knows about tech and computers. The rest of the people have a wireless one as it's less complicated to set up, or they don't have one at all (just plug each machine into a phoneline is thy've got more than one.)

Haoshiro
Jun 2, 2006, 08:10 AM
Do the prices listed for the machines in the USA have tax included in them? I read a while ago that once you take off VAT and import duties than the PS3 cost about $10 more than in the USA.

No, and at least where I am that is 7.55% which would be 45$/53$ more (24£/28£)

Another thing, some one said something about most homes having a wired network. Everyone I know that has a wired network knows about tech and computers. The rest of the people have a wireless one as it's less complicated to set up, or they don't have one at all (just plug each machine into a phoneline is thy've got more than one.)

That was me and if I said that what I mean was wired access to their network. Most wireless routers have a small 4-port ethernet hub built in.

I wouldn't really say the configuration of a wired network is really anymore difficult then wired now. Around the same time wireless equipment started getting very good and affordable the major OSes (Windows XP and Mac OS X) both vastly improved their networking support - not just the wireless side. So both are pretty much just plug-in affairs, although obviously without the need for wires in a wireless setup. In general configuration should be next to nothing provided you buy a good router.

Dagless
Jun 2, 2006, 10:24 AM
Man UK does get shived.

Welcome to our world! probably why the UK has less gamers than america. when my parents bought my brother a 360, they looked at the games and LAUGHED. the days of my parents getting a random game for him are over.

Another reason why I think the Wii will dominate the UK. as far as game prices will go;

Wii; £30
360; £50
PS3; £50+

Just look at handheld game sales, on average on the high street;

DS; £25
PSP; £35

The DS sells ***** load more games. also down to the console games...

GC; from £40 down to £25 (this is where a lot of people are buying Cube stuff now, just look around the "I bought a GC!" threads)
PS2; £30
Xbox; £35

The PS2 dominated with it's cheap games. Gamecube and Xbox sat and cried at high prices until the Cubes huge drop.
We could also look back on N64, Saturn games etc... ;)

Game prices will determine so much in the next gen. They always have they always will.

MacRumorUser
Jun 2, 2006, 10:32 AM
Game prices will determine so much in the next gen. They always have they always will.

Though I remember paying £50-60 per game between 1992-2000 with Snes & N64 cartridges. Nintendo havent always been the cheapest.

GFLPraxis
Jun 2, 2006, 11:52 AM
Though I remember paying £50-60 per game between 1992-2000 with Snes & N64 cartridges. Nintendo havent always been the cheapest.

I may be wrong but IIRC Nintendo's third parties charged more than Nintendo did.

Dagless
Jun 2, 2006, 12:07 PM
I may be wrong but IIRC Nintendo's third parties charged more than Nintendo did.

Aye, the most expensive 1st party game I paid for was £30 for OoT. The most expensive 3rd party was £40 for Jet Force Gemini, or might have been Goldeneye or something.

Though I remember paying £50-60 per game between 1992-2000 with Snes & N64 cartridges. Nintendo havent always been the cheapest.

Oh they haven't always been cheapest. point is that the most expensive games tend to flop. N64, Cube+Xbox. Until the PSP and soon to be the PS3, Sony always had a monopoly on the cheapest games.

Sony fanboys keep banging on about "PS3 will sell because of PS1 and 2 success" when they don't realise this is an entirely different kettle of fish now. Sony went from cheap to overpriced. Just look at the PSP for the damaging effect that has.

MacRumorUser
Jun 2, 2006, 12:13 PM
Aye, the most expensive 1st party game I paid for was £30 for OoT. The most expensive 3rd party was £40 for Jet Force Gemini, or might have been Goldeneye or something.

Where on earth were you buying your N64 games from in 96 onwards? Seriously I was paying £50 + for all my N64 games when I was at Uni. (admitedly the price went down towards the end of the N64's life cycle) but the cheapest game I ever bought for it was WETRIX for just under £40...

When I moved to Ireland in 98, prices were scary then because suddenly everything was seemingly 20% more. £60 + IEP before the switch over to Euro.....

Abulia
Jun 2, 2006, 12:17 PM
Is anyone really thinking of buying a Wii AND a 360?Yes. I already have a launch day 360 (love it) and a Wii is staring to be compelling. Time will tell if Nintendo can properly "sell" me on why I should buy one, though.

Dagless
Jun 2, 2006, 12:27 PM
Where on earth were you buying your N64 games from in 96 onwards? Seriously I was paying £50 + for all my N64 games when I was at Uni. (admitedly the price went down towards the end of the N64's life cycle) but the cheapest game I ever bought for it was WETRIX for just under £40...

When I moved to Ireland in 98, prices were scary then because suddenly everything was seemingly 20% more. £60 + IEP before the switch over to Euro.....

Oldham and Manchester's EB, as it were in the day. Hell I picked up F-Zero X brand new and sealed for £19 in 1998 (could have been 99)

MacRumorUser
Jun 2, 2006, 12:34 PM
Oldham and Manchester's EB, as it were in the day. Hell I picked up F-Zero X brand new and sealed for £19 in 1998 (could have been 99)

Jeez, bargain. That's just luck, but not the RRP as a whole.

Dagless
Jun 2, 2006, 12:45 PM
Jeez, bargain. That's just luck, but not the RRP as a whole.

oh hells no! on a little trip into London I saw games at the more common prices.

On a side topic I remember seeing Lemmings in EB with the old box "warning, Lemmings may make you pull your hair out" or something. with that lemming looking out from that hill-top with everyone else below. And I got Links Awakening for £14! Rise of the Robots for £20... what a rip :mad:

MacRumorUser
Jun 2, 2006, 12:48 PM
Rise of the Robots for £20... what a rip :mad:

You bought Rise of the Robots !!!! LOL! :D I suppose someone had to.

Dagless
Jun 2, 2006, 01:41 PM
You bought Rise of the Robots !!!! LOL! :D I suppose someone had to.

It looked so good though! Really was the defining moment in my life when I found out graphics have no affect on gameplay, and went back to Wario Land GB. We all get a similar lesson. hopefully.

GFLPraxis
Jun 2, 2006, 02:21 PM
A lot of this is pure speculation until the system is released.

512MB RAM? Isn't 256MB of that on the GPU?

The power of the "computer" or the software it runs on top of the OS (like a desktop GUI) doesn't change the analogy or make it wrong. Not it might not be fair, considering one would not even be considered PDA class while the other is deskop class. On that I definitely agree.

But at this point you are repeating things you've been told or heard and happen to believe. I happen to not believe "it ships with a full set of dev tools and cell-optimized compilers." - it hasn't shipped, so either one of us could be correct, it just seems much more likely that it won't. Look at the PSP; Sony isn't exactly loving the homebrew but instead working to lock it out on the machine, why should I believe they will change their policy for PS3?

Yes, but the GPU and system RAM are actually shared by the system so one can use the GPU's RAM as system RAM.

The reason Sony is trying to lock homebrew out of the PSP should be obvious. They're locking out homebrew that runs directly on the hardware- namely, homebrew that lets people play illegal games and roms.

On the PS3, Sony will still lock people out of running their own apps directly on the hardware (or the built in OS for games)- they're simply allowing people to create homebrew that runs within Linux on top of the hardware. You won't be able to execute PS3 games on top of Linux.

As far as "speculation"? I think not.

Arstechnica:
Penguin Power on PS3? Probably.

5/16/2006 2:30:04 PM, by Jeremy Reimer

Ever since the announcement of the PlayStation 3's November release date, the Internet has been abuzz with discussion over the promise of Ken Kutaragi's brief mention of Linux. However, as Kutaragi has been known to make statements that were subsequently changed (for example, in 2005, he said that the hard drive for the PS3 would be optional) many people held off on assuming that their shiny new PS3 would come prepackaged with Penguin goodness.

Now, more recent comments at E3 by SCE network system development manager Izumi Kawanishi suggest that each new PS3 will likely come not only with Linux preinstalled, but also a compiler and a set of development tools. If this is true, the PS3 might become the system of choice for Linux enthusiasts and homebrew developers.

But how much of the PS3's architecture will be accessible under Linux? Certainly anything to do with Digital Rights Management (DRM) or playing burned copies of protected games will be locked out. It's also possible that Sony will reserve some of the more advanced graphics and sound features for the big-name PS3 game developers. However, this doesn't mean that Linux on the PS3 will be no different from running it on any generic PC or Macintosh. IBM has made sure of that:

"Unlike existing SMP systems or multicore implementations of other processors, on the Cell, only the general purpose PowerPC core is able to run a generic operating system, while the SPUs are specialized to run computational tasks. Porting Linux to run on Cell's PowerPC core is a relatively easy task because of the similarities to existing platforms like IBM pSeries or Apple Power Macintosh, but this does not give access to the enormous computing power of the SPUs.

Only the kernel can directly communicate with an SPU and therefore needs to abstract the hardware interface into system calls or device drivers. The most important functions of the user interface include loading a program binary into an SPU, transferring memory between an SPU program and a Linux userspace application, and synchronizing the execution."

The IBM port of Linux allows developers to access the Synergistic Processing Units (SPU, sometimes referred to as SPEs in Sony documentation) using their unique instruction set, by creating a virtual file system that can be accessed by userland applications. From a shell prompt, you can even mount the SPU and do a directory listing with ls, with various elements (the small amount of local memory, registers, and the "mailbox" where messages are sent to and from the SPU) appearing as files. These files can then be accessed with standard Unix system calls. This file system is known as "SPUFS" or "Synergistic Processing Unit File System."

The documentation states that the Cell port of Linux was written by a joint team of Sony, IBM, and Toshiba employees based in Austin, Texas, and that the team hopes to include their work in the upcoming 2.6.13 Linux kernel release. Will we see Beowulf clusters of PS3s next? Only the Penguins know for sure.



and
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9290
In an intriguing turn of events, Sony executive Izumi Kawanishi has illuminated some of his company's PlayStation 3 Linux plans, indicating that it will be possible for individual 'homebrew' coders to create playable content for PS3, something actively blocked for Sony's PSP handheld.

In comments made to Japanese game website Impress Watch, and translated by GameSetWatch contributor Shou Suzuki, Kawanishi noted: "Because we have plans for having Linux on board [the PS3], we also recognize Linux programming activities... Other than game studios tied to official developer licenses, we'd like to see various individuals participate in content creation for the PS3."

It seems that Sony is happy to let basic application and game construction take place without access to the extremely sophisticated rendering and physics libraries available to licensors - Kawanishi further commented: "When a game studio enacts development on a PS3 by entering a license contract, SDK libraries... will be presented, and various technical support given. In contrast, when using Linux World on the PS3... support will fall to the lowest level required, and you must solve and work on things by yourselves."

MacRumorUser
Jun 2, 2006, 02:34 PM
As far as "speculation"? I think not.
Penguin Power on PS3? Probably.

:)
Does not the post you quoted have the title with probably after it? Is that not speculation? Just being anal I know :p

I'll wait and see what ps3 and linux has to offer when its available, until then it's all speculation, it could in the end be the only thing that would lead me to get one next year.

GFLPraxis
Jun 2, 2006, 03:28 PM
:)
Does not the post you quoted have the title with probably after it? Is that not speculation? Just being anal I know :p

I'll wait and see what ps3 and linux has to offer when its available, until then it's all speculation, it could in the end be the only thing that would lead me to get one next year.

See the second quote, which is an interview with a Sony rep.

MacRumorUser
Jun 2, 2006, 03:34 PM
See the second quote, which is an interview with a Sony rep.

Hey I said I was being anal ;) :D :D

Haoshiro
Jun 2, 2006, 05:13 PM
Yep, still speculation. The system isn't out and won't be for 6 months. It can't be considered definite until the systems are out there (and even after that things can always change). Last minute hardware, software, and business decisions do happen.

GameCube can output progressive scan... wait... no... only the first generation systems.

PlayStation 3 will include built-in Wi-Fi, 2 HDMI, 2 Gigabit Ethernet, 6 USB... wait... the cheaper version won't have Wi-Fi or HDMI, the expensive version will have only one HDMI, and the other I/O ports have been reduced (ethernet/usb/etc).

The point is simple: what will actually happen when the system launches is all speculation for us. Even the decision makers at Sony could change their mind and things could change.

Happens all the time... on the software side, do some looking at Windows Vista... and games have features reduced all the time.

One more time: It's all speculation at this point.