Ursprache! (National Spelling Bee)

[Doctor Q]

Ursprache (noun) - a language that is the recorded or hypothetical ancestor of another language or group of languages. Also called a protolanguage. Pronounced UR-shprock-eh (http://www.bartleby.com/61/wavs/26/U0152600.wav).

It's been a year since a 14-year-old fainted during the U.S. National Spelling Bee finals. This year there was no fainting and the finals were on nationwide television for the first time.

Disproving the saying "close but no cigar", the winner (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000082&sid=aYALS081EDn0) was 13-year-old Katharine ("Kerry") Close from New Jersey.

Close won $42,500 in cash, books, savings bonds, and scholarships. That amount is as weird as the words she spelled!

The final word was ursprache, which I'm sure you all use frequently in everyday conversation. I probably use it a few times a day, e.g., "Did you know that Simula was an ursprache for Java?"

The runners-up had trouble with the words weltschmerz and icteritious, which I also use every day, e.g., "I'm feeling especially weltschmerz over my icteritious summer tan." I'm sure you use those words too.

[xsedrinam]

Ursprache (noun) - a language that is the recorded or hypothetical ancestor of another language or group of languages. Also called a protolanguage. Pronounced UR-shprock-eh (http://www.bartleby.com/61/wavs/26/U0152600.wav).

Here I've been misusing the term all these years as when a slightly inebriated Captain Kirk was first introduced to the Vulcan. "Ursprache?".

That's really a special group of kids and it's great to see it get national tv coverage.

[EricNau]

That was the final word? It sounds exactly like it is spelled. Besides, it's German, not English. :confused:

(It's German for "Original Language.")

[eji]

What's kind of funny is that both Ursprache and Weltschmerz are words straight out of German, not yet assimilated into English so neatly as, say, the French "garage," so what were they doing in an American spelling bee? Doesn't the English language have enough tough words of its own?

A semi-related anecdote: In the middle of talking to a girl back home about what it was like living in Germany, I sneezed.

"Gesundheit," she said.

"See?" I said. "You already know a bit of German."

She looked at me blankly. "Gesundheit is German?"

[EricNau]

What's kind of funny is that both Ursprache and Weltschmerz are words straight out of German, not yet assimilated into English so neatly as, say, the French "garage," so what were they doing in an American spelling bee? Doesn't the English language have enough tough words of its own?
At least Weltschmerz is recognized by the [Apple] American Oxford Dictionary; Ursprache isn't.

[CorvusCamenarum]

What's kind of funny is that both Ursprache and Weltschmerz are words straight out of German, not yet assimilated into English so neatly as, say, the French "garage," so what were they doing in an American spelling bee? Doesn't the English language have enough tough words of its own?

A semi-related anecdote: In the middle of talking to a girl back home about what it was like living in Germany, I sneezed.

"Gesundheit," she said.

"See?" I said. "You already know a bit of German."

She looked at me blankly. "Gesundheit is German?"

I once had someone ask me for the French word for champagne.

[EricNau]

I once had someone ask me for the French word for champagne.
Did you tell them vin mousseux? :p

[Don't panic]

the entire idea of the spelling bee contest is to me utterly absurd, especially if teenagers are concerned. I could see 7-8 years old kids doing it, but after ten... sad.

[CorvusCamenarum]

Did you tell them vin mousseux? :p

Worse. I can only imagine the look she got from whichever poor French soul she asked for une bouteille du vagin. :D

the entire idea of the spelling bee contest is to me utterly absurd, especially if teenagers are concerned. I could see 7-8 years old kids doing it, but after ten... sad.
Literacy seems to be a waning ability these days. I know people my age who can't spell, and not just difficult words. Aside from it being just fun for at least some of them, they'll come away from it with a better understanding of our language.

[floriflee]

the entire idea of the spelling bee contest is to me utterly absurd, especially if teenagers are concerned. I could see 7-8 years old kids doing it, but after ten... sad.

Hey, if it involves getting a $40+ scholarship for college then I'm all for letting teens do it.

[Boggle]

I think the poor girl got hosed! She needs better representation. Somebody should have shown her an Calvin & Hobbes comic strip. 42.5K in total? Running in "prime-time" against only 1 other non-repeat program, which was an game-show marathon hosted by Rikki Lake!

Not to mention, I [edit- spelling error, DOH!] garuntee boarding schools will be scouting this little girl (and all the other finalists) this is the kind of info that impresses parents looking a private schooling for their kids. For the love of a busicut will somebody find this woman an corporate logo?

[d_and_n5000]

I saw the bee live on Thursday, and I thougth it was really interesting. I was hoping Saryn Hooks would win - she waws thought to have spelled a word wrong(my researching skills are shaky), but in the word list, they had spelled it wrong. Therefore, the judges, on their own accord, checked it in the dictionary and she had spelled it right, and was called back up to compete again. She wound up in 3rd. I could have sworn that with the luck of getting reinstated, she would have won - but it was Katherine.

Rats. At least I didn't bet anything.

[thedude110]

I watched and thought it was wonderful.

It's rare that North American youngsters get significant recognition for anything outside of sports or crime. And to see how hard these kids must have worked -- and how much they were living and dying in their individual spotlights -- it's really pretty wonderful.

Most compelling was how the kids wanted to win, but at the same time recognized when they had lost. A kind of mutual respect sorely lacking amongst many adults in the workplace, I'd wager.

[clayj]

I'm a former spelling bee champion... as a 4th grader, I won our school's spelling bee (4th and 5th graders) at Sembach Air Force Base in Germany. Grand prize was $200 (pretty good for 1978!) and a trip to the DODSEUR (Department of Defense Schools, Europe) championship at Aviano Air Force Base in Italy.

While my folks drove us from Germany to Italy, I sat in the back seat memorizing lists of words... which is exactly what these kids do now. Didn't know what they meant, didn't know how to pronounce them all, but each of them got a brief amount of exposure to my young brain. When the competition came, I got more than halfway through it before I misspelled the word "incessant".

It was still a good trip... got to go to Venice and see some nice old Italian towns. :)

BTW, does anyone remember Rebecca Sealfon, the winner from 1997 or so? This girl was a complete nervous wreck up on the stage... constantly sniffing her fingers and shrieking a la Mary Katherine Gallagher from SNL. I remember thinking that she seemed like a basket case and wouldn't last 5 minutes in the real world...

[thedude110]

I'm a former spelling bee champion... as a 4th grader, I won our school's spelling bee (4th and 5th graders) at Sembach Air Force Base in Germany.


Ha -- I finished second in my school in fourth grade. Got ousted on "medeival."

What's funny is that as an English teacher everyone expects me to be a "good speller." But you learn to spell by reading, and it seems like all I ever read are misspellings. Such that my colleagues and I joke that "our students have destroyed our ability to spell."

[Boggle]

I watched and thought it was wonderful.

It's rare that North American youngsters get significant recognition for anything outside of sports or crime. And to see how hard these kids must have worked -- and how much they were living and dying in their individual spotlights -- it's really pretty wonderful.

Most compelling was how the kids wanted to win, but at the same time recognized when they had lost. A kind of mutual respect sorely lacking amongst many adults in the workplace, I'd wager.

I definately agree. I think these kids acted the way we want all types of competitors to behave. Good for them.

[EricNau]

Worse. I can only imagine the look she got from whichever poor French soul she asked for une bouteille du vagin. :D
Well that was not very nice. :D :p

[Don't panic]

Literacy seems to be a waning ability these days. I know people my age who can't spell, and not just difficult words.
but this is what is feeding my weltschmerz (;)).
That being able to spell belongs to some sort of "geekdom" and is not, simply, the norm.
That our society is so competition-oriented that even the normal task of being able to talk, write and read divides people into winners and losers.
That it has become accepted that a 15 years old who can spell must be some sort of phenomenon.

That these contestants, who are probably by all means brilliant students, waste hours mechanically memorizing words mostly deriving from some forgotten ursprache, as succedanea for autochthonous ones, and which at most are ever used as a sort of appoggiatura, to embellish the vane demarche of some pococurante diplomat, attempting to substitute his or her utter lack of prospicience with unrelenting logorrhea.

[clayj]

Ha -- I finished second in my school in fourth grade. Got ousted on "medeival."Consider yourself ousted again. It's spelled "medieval". (I before E, you know. ;) )

[xsedrinam]

Consider yourself ousted again. It's spelled "medieval". (I before E, you know. ;) )
That almost made me onomatopoeia, laughing. :D (And I think thedude110's an educator, too. :)

[Doctor Q]

I used to think the words these kids are challenged to spell were too hard, but the fact that the finalists have mastered dozens of them proves me wrong. The Spelling Bee has to use obscure, difficult, and "foreign language" words because the best contestants sail through the easier words.

Congradulashuns to all the contestents!

Oops, I forgot to spellcheck that. ;)

[Don't panic]

Consider yourself ousted again. It's spelled "medieval". (I before E, you know. ;) )

my take was that it was the spelling error that got him ousted then

[thedude110]

Consider yourself ousted again. It's spelled "medieval". (I before E, you know. ;) )

What? Argh!

*fights off fourth grade flashbacks of shame*

:o

[Boggle]

but this is what is feeding my weltschmerz (;)).
That being able to spell belongs to some sort of "geekdom" and is not, simply, the norm.
That our society is so competition-oriented that even the normal task of being able to talk, write and read divides people into winners and losers.
That it has become accepted that a 15 years old who can spell must be some sort of phenomenon.

That these contestants, who are probably by all means brilliant students, waste hours mechanically memorizing words mostly deriving from some forgotten ursprache, as succedanea for autochthonous ones, and which at most are ever used as a sort of appoggiatura, to embellish the vane demarche of some pococurante diplomat, attempting to substitute his or her utter lack of prospicience with unrelenting logorrhea.


Wow, did you read the superior person's book of words, b/c these aren't found in most thesauri!

weltschmerz: wold-hurt, or ache, having to do with dissatisfaction with events beyond your control, unhappiness with the status quo. --outstanding word--
ursprache: is a parental language which is sort of rebuilt from parts of modern languages. -- good choice --
succedanea: my understanding is that the primary meaning is to be a successor to a post / job / title / property owneship...hence the root. -- but seems really appropriate in this context.
autochthonous: indiginous, being from the area, (slight non sequitor b/c ursrache has to do w/ time in history and rarely is it established in a specific geographic location, and autochthonous has to do w/ geographic location)
appoggiatura: is a musical embellishment I would have said garniture b/c it means to seem to add value by appearance but to be of little or no actual worth. then again, i think the musicallity works, again b/c of the context.
demarche: course of action, steps take, maneuver, civil protest, statement of same to athorities etc. doesn't always have to be a protest, I don't think. --but again really good one --
prospicience: forsight, --perfect word --
logorrhea: excessive pointless talking (oh, so incredibly me, it should have my picture in OED) -- also really good choice of word --

Anyway, I'm not sure agree with your characterizations but I keep getting interrupted by the damn phone and the dogs. But really good demonstration of your points by using specific language to communicate a complicated idea in a concise way. 10 out of 10 for style.

[Doctor Q]

The judges must have to do a bit of practicing to be able to pronounce all of those words correctly. If they mispronounce one, that would be unfair to the contestant.

Autochthonous? Yikes, what a word!

You might think that there are not many words containing the sequence chth, but there are actually dozens. There are even words that begin with chth, such as chthonophagia, a disease characterized by the impulsive consumption of dirt -- also know as reading gossip magazines!

[clayj]

You might think that there are not many words containing the sequence chth, but there are actually dozens. There are even words that begin with chth, such as chthonophagia, a disease characterized by the impulsive consumption of dirt -- also know as reading gossip magazines!Chthulu, baby.

Chthulu.

Chthulu.

(Where is he? :confused: )

[eva01]

I believe I heard that this is the first time since 1999 that a girl has won the Spelling Bee

[Abstract]

In 1st grade, I was in the Spelling Bee and lost on the word "permission."

Why? Because I wasn't a "special" 6 year old. :p I couldn't spell German words, and I liked to make drawrings.

but this is what is feeding my weltschmerz (;)).
That being able to spell belongs to some sort of "geekdom" and is not, simply, the norm.
That our society is so competition-oriented that even the normal task of being able to talk, write and read divides people into winners and losers.

Yeah, and how about those silly competitions involving the very normal tasks of walking, running, and jumping. Don't hear any complaints from you on those, though.

Ever think that maybe your definition of "normal" may not be everyone elses? What's normal, anyway?



That it has become accepted that a 15 years old who can spell must be some sort of phenomenon.

If so many people, even incredibly educated people, find their ability and accomplishment incredible, then yes, they're a phenomenon.

[Chundles]

2010 Spelling Bee

"OK, your final word is 'anyone.' Spell 'anyone,' you have ten seconds."

"n, e, 1."

"Correct! U r teh winnar of teh speling B."

[floriflee]

So jog my memory on how spelling bees are run. I can't remember how they work from my childhood. Do these children know beforehand what the possible list of words will be so they can practice and memorize, or are they expected to be able to spell any word that is thrown at them?

[Abstract]

They are forced by their demanding parents to go up on stage and spell any word they are given, and they never know what the words are beforehand. If they spell a word incorrectly, look into their eyes. That is the look of fear. Once they know they are defeated, you can see many of the fallen contestants look into the crowd towards mother and father. The parents just look back in absolute disgust and embarrassment. Fear........F. E. A. R. After a defeat, they know that when they get home, their ass is gonna get ursprached all over the hiz-ouse! H. I. Z. "dash" O. U. S. E. :eek:

[Don't panic]

WAnyway, I'm not sure agree with your characterizations but I keep getting interrupted by the damn phone and the dogs. But really good demonstration of your points by using specific language to communicate a complicated idea in a concise way. 10 out of 10 for style.

hehe, thanks, but it's just word games. if you look at the 'big' words in that paragraph, you might find that they are there because of a 'special' connection hint: it has to do with the thread ;)

p.s: a succedaneum is a remedy used instead of the proper medicine, a (sub-par) substitute




If so many people, even incredibly educated people, find their ability and accomplishment incredible, then yes, they're a phenomenon.

abstract,
sorry but you're not going to convince me that possessing a decent vocabulary isn't something that every 15 years old could do (and i am not saying they should necessarily go around discussing their Weltanschauung:p )

and i am not so sure there are so many incredibly educated people, that find their ability and accomplishment incredible. More likely shaking their head at the waste of neurons :D

They are forced by their demanding parents to go up on stage and spell any word they are given, and they never know what the words are beforehand. If they spell a word incorrectly, look into their eyes. That is the look of fear. Once they know they are defeated, you can see many of the fallen contestants look into the crowd towards mother and father. The parents just look back in absolute disgust and embarrassment. Fear........F. E. A. R. After a defeat, they know that when they get home, their ass is gonna get ursprached all over the hiz-ouse! H. I. Z. "dash" O. U. S. E
classic :D

edit: made clearer (i hope) and avoided double posting

[iRachel]

So jog my memory on how spelling bees are run. I can't remember how they work from my childhood. Do these children know beforehand what the possible list of words will be so they can practice and memorize, or are they expected to be able to spell any word that is thrown at them?

The National Spelling Bee uses Webster’s Third New International Dictionary and its Addenda section (2002) - the unabridged version. So I don't think anybody could possibly know all of the words in there - it's three volumes long. I think this is why the spellers are allowed to ask for definitions and the language of origin - they memorize patterns so that they can use them to figure out unfamiliar words.

[Abstract]

abstract,
sorry but you're not going to convince me that possessing a decent vocabulary isn't something that every 15 years old could do (and i am not saying they should necessarily go around discussing their Weltanschauung:p )

Many 15 year olds have a decent vocabulary, but that doesn't make the ability of these spelling bee champions (and 2nd, 3rd, 4th......17th place) less phenomenal. Their spelling is obviously beyond "decent", "good", "great," or even "spectacular." A better word to describe it may be "unbelievable".......unbelievable until they actually witness some brainy 13 year old spell words most people have never even heard of.

And the fact that we're talking about a spelling bee for 15 year olds probably gives an indication of how phenomenal many people think their feats are. Come to think of it, we start a "spelling bee" thread every single year here at MacRumours, as far as I can remember. ;) We don't do that every time someone breaks the 100 metre world record, do we?

[xsedrinam]

...abstract,
sorry but you're not going to convince me that possessing a decent vocabulary isn't something that every 15 years old could do (and i am not saying they should necessarily go around discussing their Weltanschauung:p )
No, we just relegate our grey matters and celebrate the modest salaried Sports Industry’s literary prowess as the lemmings of post modern entertainment. Why should we affirm the champions of spelling when we’re surrounded by such a plethora of competency?

”The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein.”
-- Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst
”Be sure and put some of those neutrons on it.”
-- Mike Smith, Baseball pitcher, ordering a salad at a restaurant
”Men, I want you just thinking of one word all season. One word and one word only: Super Bowl.”
-- Bill Peterson, football coach

”We've been working on the basics because, basically, we've been having trouble with the basics.”
-- Bob Ojeda, baseball pitcher

”The people don't take baths and they don't speak English. No golf courses, no room service. Who needs it?”
-- Jim McMahon, NFL football quarterback, on Europe
”It was pretty good. Even the music was nice.”
-- Yogi Berra, after attending an opera

”The Minutemen are not tall in terms of height.”
-- Dan Bonner, CBS sportscaster, during a UMass basketball game

”Our strength is that we don't have any weaknesses. Our weakness is that we don't have any real strengths.”
-- Frank Broyles, college football coach

”Any time Detroit scores more than 100 points and holds the other team below 100 points they almost always win.”
-- Doug Collins, basketball commentator

”Not only is he ambidextrous, but he can throw with either hand.”
-- Duffy Daugherty , football coach and sports analyst`

”All of the Mets' road wins against Los Angeles this year have been at Dodger Stadium.”
-- Ralph Kiner, NY Sportscaster

”Most of my cliches aren't original.”
-- Chuck Knox, NFL football coach

”It is beyond my apprehension.”
--Danny Ozark, baseball team manager, regarding his team's losing streak

[Don't panic]

Many 15 year olds have a decent vocabulary, but that doesn't make the ability of these spelling bee champions (and 2nd, 3rd, 4th......17th place) less phenomenal. Their spelling is obviously beyond "decent", "good", "great," or even "spectacular." A better word to describe it may be "unbelievable".......unbelievable until they actually witness some brainy 13 year old spell words most people have never even heard of.

:confused: are you being sarcastic? you do realize that you are talking about how to correctly attribute letters to a sound, in your own language. what is unbelievable is that there is a competition out of it. with pretenses of seriousness.

still unimpressed.
in most case they have never heard of them either. they have just memorized the sound of have been thought some tricks to properly guess. hardly phenomenal stuff.
If they were requested to know the words use them in sentences it would be different (still wouldn't warrant a 'competititon').

[xsedrinam]

What? Argh!

*fights off fourth grade flashbacks of shame*

:o
Got a good laugh from that. Thanks, "teach". :D

[Don't panic]

No, we just relegate our grey matters and celebrate the modest salaried Sports Industry’s literary prowess as the lemmings of post modern entertainment. Why should we affirm the champions of spelling when we’re surrounded by such a plethora of competency?

”The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein.”
-- Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback and sports analyst
”Be sure and put some of those neutrons on it.”
-- Mike Smith, Baseball pitcher, ordering a salad at a restaurant
”Men, I want you just thinking of one word all season. One word and one word only: Super Bowl.”
-- Bill Peterson, football coach

”We've been working on the basics because, basically, we've been having trouble with the basics.”
-- Bob Ojeda, baseball pitcher

”The people don't take baths and they don't speak English. No golf courses, no room service. Who needs it?”
-- Jim McMahon, NFL football quarterback, on Europe
”It was pretty good. Even the music was nice.”
-- Yogi Berra, after attending an opera

”The Minutemen are not tall in terms of height.”
-- Dan Bonner, CBS sportscaster, during a UMass basketball game

”Our strength is that we don't have any weaknesses. Our weakness is that we don't have any real strengths.”
-- Frank Broyles, college football coach

”Any time Detroit scores more than 100 points and holds the other team below 100 points they almost always win.”
-- Doug Collins, basketball commentator

”Not only is he ambidextrous, but he can throw with either hand.”
-- Duffy Daugherty , football coach and sports analyst`

”All of the Mets' road wins against Los Angeles this year have been at Dodger Stadium.”
-- Ralph Kiner, NY Sportscaster

”Most of my cliches aren't original.”
-- Chuck Knox, NFL football coach

”It is beyond my apprehension.”
--Danny Ozark, baseball team manager, regarding his team's losing streak

eheh funny. some could be bushisms

but what's the point?

[xsedrinam]

eheh funny. some could be bushisms

but what's the point?
It's quite simple. Affirm the program's overall purpose (http://www.spellingbee.com/about.asp).

Purpose
"Our purpose is to help students improve their spelling, increase their vocabularies, learn concepts, and develop correct English usage that will help them all their lives."

Where's the problem?

[WildCowboy]

It's quite simple. Affirm the program's overall purpose (http://www.spellingbee.com/about.asp).

Where's the problem?

I could be mistaken, but I thought he was asking about your quotes...

[xsedrinam]

I could be mistaken, but I thought he was asking about your quotes...
Ya, I probably should have just left them out. The point is that while entertainment and entertainers are championed by the public yet do little to raise the literary bar for kids, why shouldn't there be room for a nationally recognized platform whose purpose is to do just that?

Spelling contests are certainly not exhaustive in the scope of inciting kids to excel in spelling and use of vocabulary, but I would think we'd welcome anything which would try to help.

[guifa]

The judges must have to do a bit of practicing to be able to pronounce all of those words correctly. If they mispronounce one, that would be unfair to the contestant.

Autochthonous? Yikes, what a word!

You might think that there are not many words containing the sequence chth, but there are actually dozens. There are even words that begin with chth, such as chthonophagia, a disease characterized by the impulsive consumption of dirt -- also know as reading gossip magazines!
The words that begin with chth are pronounced as if they just have a th.

[rebhaf]

Every since software started "correcting" things for me, my spelling has become atrocious (sp?). When I'm away from a computer and actually have to write a note or something, I'm like, "oh sh--". I think if I watched a spelling bee on TV it would make me feel miserable. But I'm happy for those kids. :D

[Ugg]

autochthonous: indiginous, being from the area, (slight non sequitor b/c ursrache has to do w/ time in history and rarely is it established in a specific geographic location, and autochthonous has to do w/ geographic location)
.


It's indigenous with an "e".


I think it's cool that time and effort are given over to academic achievement. There's way too much focus on sports (and unfortunately not enough on physical fitness). Where's the funding for science contests? Back in the 60s, the US couldn't get enough of them.

[clayj]

The words that begin with chth are pronounced as if they just have a th.Not "Chthulu". It's "k'thoo-loo". ;)

[xsedrinam]

Not "Chthulu". It's "k'thoo-loo". ;)
Chthanks for chthinking chthat chthrouh, clay. :p

[whooleytoo]

What a waste of time.. someone should buy these kids a Mac with its built-in spell-checker!

That always spells things write, isn't that sow? ;)