Buddhism

[Shamus]

Greetings to all.

Now before I start, I would just like to say that I don't mean this thread to become a debate over superior religions or beliefs. :)

I am an atheist, but lately I have been looking at the Buddhist belief as something that I believe in. Personally, I dont regard Buddhism as a religion, because of the absence of a God. I more look on it as a lifestyle, a quest to enlightenment.

I have researched some of the basic pages the net has to offer about what the Buddhist belief is about, and so far have found it to be accurate to what I would like to achieve in my life, and the morals that I would like to live by. I also meditate, which is another practice that the Buddhists advocate.

So,
Are there any buddhists in MR that could offer some advice, or more detailed knowledge of what buddhism is all about? Are there some things about Buddhism that I should know about, considering I am an athiest, and dont believe in a God?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. :) :)

[netdog]

You might start with Ken Wilber. Very good author.

[Shamus]

You might start with Ken Wilber. Very good author.

Thanks for the quick response. Ill definitely check Ken Wilber out at the library tomorrow.

EDIT: fixed type as pointed out by netdog.

[netdog]

Thanks for the quick response. Ill definitely check Ken Wilbur out at the library tomorrow.

I think that's Wilber

[goodnbr]

Greetings to all.

Now before I start, I would just like to say that I don't mean this thread to become a debate over superior religions or beliefs. :)

I am an atheist, but lately I have been looking at the Buddhist belief as something that I believe in. Personally, I dont regard Buddhism as a religion, because of the absence of a God. I more look on it as a lifestyle, a quest to enlightenment.

I have researched some of the basic pages the net has to offer about what the Buddhist belief is about, and so far have found it to be accurate to what I would like to achieve in my life, and the morals that I would like to live by. I also meditate, which is another practice that the Buddhists advocate.

So,
Are there any buddhists in MR that could offer some advice, or more detailed knowledge of what buddhism is all about? Are there some things about Buddhism that I should know about, considering I am an athiest, and dont believe in a God?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. :) :)


It appears that you have the idea correctly fixed in your mind. Since god does not exist, then religion is a term that strictly applies to belief systems. Thus, the essence of what is deemed religion today is extremism at best.

I lived in Korea for a year and Japan for 5 years (not military) and found that the buddhist beliefs can vary a great deal there. Please do not be gullible enough to think that there is not rampant corruption in this system as well, though. A monk driving a Ferrari should suffice as proof.

At any rate, my point is to take the belief system for your own, keep it to yourself, and only share ONLY it if someone asks. Do not construct altars or idolize a figurehead, yet believe that the system is something you enjoy living with.

Many may disagree with this approach, but I view anyone who spreads a belief system to others without being asked as a zealot. If it is a strong belief you need or want, it should belong only to you. Another person cannot share your spirituality as it is the most personal thing that exists, and it is what makes you unique.

Of course, the zealots will disagree and make a spectacle of doing so.

[Abstract]

Someone told me that in order to be a true Buddhist, you cannot "want" things. I'm not talking about food when you're hungry, or water when you're thirsty. I'm talking about.....oh......things that tempt you. We can call give these things a generic name......oh......maybe "apples." We can't desire "apples." :o

Oh, and it's not good enough to TRY and not desire them, because it means that you do desire material things. You actually need to genuinely not care at all.....like, don't even give these material objects a second thought.

After this moment, as hard as I thought I could be a Buddhist, I knew I couldn't do that. I like "apples." :o

I'm not sure if what I was told was accurate, but someone else told me something similar (although less extreme).

[thedude110]

When I was an undergraduate, I spent about six months studying and "practicing" Buddhism. I didn't have a teacher other than myself, and I found that, at 20, I didn't have the dedication necessary to engage what would have been a significant shift in lifestyle.

I shy away from Buddhism today because of the third noble truth. Having been raised Catholic I have no problem accepting that "all is suffering," but I'm not sure I want to transcend that suffering. As ridiculous as that sounds, suffering has really been ground into my identity.

I guess that probably doesn't help you. If Buddhism seems both tangible and liveable -- if you can make that commitment -- well, I envy you for being able to explore ways of thinking and being that I can't explore in myself. My friend's younger brother -- who went to an excellent university with a very job-focused major and who is really a brilliant kid -- just gave up everything that composes the "comfortable American life" to become a Buddhist monk in Germany.

What's more beautiful than tossing off the shackles of conformity and commiting yourself to what you've come to believe?

Isn't it just falling in love?

[amateurmacfreak]

Some Buddhist philosophies are amazing, and the ideas for the path to enlightenment is, imo, great.
Maybe to be a strict Buddhist you shouldn't want things, but it's obviously okay to still study Buddhism and to take a part in the enlightenment. :)

[solvs]

Buddhism is ok, but the belief that suffering is caused by desire is kind of limiting. I mean, maybe life is suppose to have suffering . Builds character. And without desire, what point is there to life? Enlightenment's overrated anyway IMO. Try Taoism. Start with the Tao of Pooh (yeah, that's right, that Winnie The Pooh) and go from there. Sounds like it might be more of what you're looking for.

There's an old Taoist saying: 3 holy men were making vinegar. The Buddhist tasted and it and winced, saying it was too sweet. The Confucian tasted it and also winced, saying it was too bitter. The Taoist tasted it and thought it was just right. Think about it.

[question fear]

Some Buddhist philosophies are amazing, and the ideas for the path to enlightenment is, imo, great.
Maybe to be a strict Buddhist you shouldn't want things, but it's obviously okay to still study Buddhism and to take a part in the enlightenment. :)


There's also some reference in various buddhist texts to the idea that you don't need to give up your life or your position in the world to be a buddhist...if you can do good in the position you are in, then you should stay there. I forget which text I read it in, but it references a conversation between Buddha and a wealthy man who asks if he should give up his fortune.

I am also a novice student of Buddhism; I find it to be a useful guide in the world, and a philosophy far richer than "life is suffering, to overcome suffering give up desire." It depends on which sect of buddhism, and which buddhists, etc you read but you can study and try to follow the precepts of buddhism even if you can't/don't believe enough to achieve enlightenment. For me, as I said, I find it to be a multi-layered philosophy, and one that I am sufficiently interested in to want to read more. And if that leads me to identifying and practicing as a Buddhist, so be it. if it leads me to other eastern religions/philosophies and/or to amalgating my own, then it still serves me well.

Finally, I recommend "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" by Suzuki...it is a great read about zen buddhism, meditation, etc.

[dogbone]

I am an atheist, but lately I have been looking at the Buddhist belief as something that I believe in...

Good luck with your Buddhist quest. It won't help you find "enlightenment". What will help is to inquire into what is "I". and what is the relationship of "I" to "the World".

You won't get anywhere until you discern what exacategly is the fundamental human problem. Understand this if nothing else...there is nothing to do, only something to know. The solution to the human problem is one of knowledge not action.

[Shamus]

Thank you SO much for the comments. They have helped clarify things to a great extent. REALLY appreciated. :cool:

I can relate to every post so far, which is helping me identify what buddhism is about. I will definitely research into the topic further, and read the literature suggested. (reading about Taoism now). :)

I have a question though. What is enlightenment? dogbone, you said that Buddhism will help we find the relationship between 'I' and "the World". Isnt that what enlightenment is anyway? At least, thats all I really expected to get out of practicing Buddhism anyway.

As many people have pointed out, some of the Buddhist beliefs are amazing, and some of them 'not so clear'. Such as "suffering is derived from desire". It does seem odd at first, but when you think about it, it does make sense (to me partially at least). Wether you desire something or not, if you make correct decisions, it will happen anyway. But if you desire it, it can cause you to make different decisions, affecting the eventual outcome, thus causing suffering. Does that make sense to anyone?

Thanks again for all the reply's, it is helpful to get everyones perspective. :)

[dogbone]

...What is enlightenment? dogbone, you said that Buddhism will help we find the relationship between 'I' and "the World".

"enlightenment" is a very crap word but I would say 'enlightenment' is simply knowing what is. I can say for certain though that enlightenment will never be about a belief. I did not say that Buddhism will help we (sic) find the relationship between 'I' and "the World", if you think that is what I said after reading my post then how are you going to understand anything?. Not understanding is far better than misunderstanding. At least if you don't understand something you can inquire further, but if you think you've understood and you haven't then...

Buddhism is just another 'enlightenment trip' that will just waste your life.

Isnt that what enlightenment is anyway? At least, thats all I really expected to get out of practicing Buddhism anyway.

I would say that a journey of (grimaces) "enlightenment", begins with an analysis of what one wishes to achieve. That is, what is it that one wants. This can be worked out by simply analysing the things one does. And analysis of 'means' and 'ends'. In fact everyone want the same thing if you analyse it. Everyone wants to be free from the feeling that they are a 'wanting' person.


As many people have pointed out, some of the Buddhist beliefs are amazing, and some of them 'not so clear'...

What is all this obsession with 'beliefs' I'll never understand it. Who in their right mind would want to 'believe' anything? I want to understand not believe.

...Such as "suffering is derived from desire". It does seem odd at first, but when you think about it, it does make sense (to me partially at least). Wether you desire something or not, if you make correct decisions, it will happen anyway. But if you desire it, it can cause you to make different decisions, affecting the eventual outcome, thus causing suffering. Does that make sense to anyone?

For fracks sake, this business of 'not desiring' is such a load of malarky. It only takes the most cursory of analysis to show what a load of codswallop it is and one can extrapolate that anyone who pushes this absurd line hasn't got a fracking clue what they are talking about. It's no wonder it is confusing. There is nothing like clarity.

[amateurmacfreak]

To me, enlightenment does have to do with telling me my relationship to the world. I think enlightment is all about understanding certain beliefs that I hold, and understanding my relationship to the world helps me solidify my place.
The Buddhist teaching I've found to be most enlightening about my relationship to the world is that there is no "self." The idea of only existing in our relationships, while also perhaps scary, also seems to me to be awesome and beautiful, showing the interconnectedness of everything. Let it be understood that I don't think we only exist in our relationships with humans: I believe we also exist in our relationships with absolutely any of our surrounding, and I believe that the stronger a relationship is the more that one exists in it.

[dogbone]

...I think enlightment is all about understanding certain beliefs that I hold...

Understanding beliefs, is an oxymoron. If you understand there is no need to believe. Conversely if you believe then you do not understand or you wouldn't need to believe.

[cait-sith]

Understanding beliefs, is an oxymoron. If you understand there is no need to believe. Conversely if you believe then you do not understand or you wouldn't need to believe.

Well said. That was a beautiful moment of truth.

I think you're just bored. Why don't you go do something worthwhile and leave the circular answers of life to the lunatics? It's possible that we are all going to be miserable some times and happy other times. That's life. Your only real decision is whether you will spend a lot of time troubled by the very fact that you exist, or if you will spend that time doing enjoyable things.

Maybe you just want a credo, or set of principals to live by? Those are hard to come by.

[unfaded]

Understanding beliefs, is an oxymoron. If you understand there is no need to believe. Conversely if you believe then you do not understand or you wouldn't need to believe.

Bull. Understanding does not equal belief. You can understand another's beliefs without them being applicable to yourself.

You can't believe everything you understand, and if you can only understand your own beliefs, you are a very poor excuse for a human.

[dogbone]

You can understand another's beliefs without them being applicable to yourself.

I was going to point out that I was not refering to 'understanding' as in 'having empathy for' but rather 'comprehending a fact', but I really didn't think it was necessary as it seemed fairly obvious from the context I quoted from. But clearly I did need to point this out.


Let's take relativity theory. It says that the speed of light is absolute and that time and space is bendy. That we could both witness two events and I see A happen before B and you see B happen before A. Now even Newton would not accept this. If you go to study it at university imagine if after the lecture you said to the professor. "Yes I believe you now"

He would say, "idiot", I don't want you to believe me, I want you to understand me. You see if there is something to understand then there is nothing to believe. You can only speak of 'understanding a belief', in the sense that you may understand how the Ancient Egyptian beleifs shaped their society. That sort of thing. But you don't actually 'understand' the belief per se because it's a belief. Meaning there is only something to believe, not understand. Sorry to labour this point but one needs to be clear.

[thevessels]

i dont think life is ever understandable when you get down to it . at the end of the road you'll always be faced to make a decision in your heart as to what you believe based on virtually no hard facts whatsoever . just my random 2cents

[dogbone]

... no hard facts whatsoever .

But there is one hard fact. In fact it is the only thing that you know for certain. You don't need to be taught it, either. You exist. What this you is that exists you may not be sure of at all, but that you exist, is the single undeniable universal Truth. You cannot deny you exist, not seriously anyway.

[thevessels]

But there is one hard fact. In fact it is the only thing that you know for certain. You don't need to be taught it, either. You exist. What this you is that exists you may not be sure of at all, but that you exist, is the single undeniable universal Truth. You cannot deny you exist, not seriously anyway.

your right i totally agree , which then ( to me ) i ask the most obvious question , which is , why ? which i suppose fuels a lot of for the ( sometimes lifelong ) answer , being found in religion , or whatever you choose . i think thats another "key" truth to remember we have . we have a choice in life :)

[Shamus]

You make excellent points dogbone. It sounds as if you are scientific/logical at heart, much like me.

I have been thinking the exact same things as what you are putting forward, but intend to look at 'belief' and 'buddhism' through other perspectives, before making a decision to follow these beliefs or not.

But at the same time, I would also like to learn about other ways of looking at life, which is why I have been looking at Buddhism. You can never truly understand, unless you have looked at something from different views. And understanding is my main goal through experimenting with different beliefs or understandings or whatever you want to call it.

Sorry if you took my response to your initial post out of context, because I was not saying that I was right, merely questioning - trying to understand what you were saying.

Regardless, thanks for your perspective.

[thevessels]

one thing we can agree on is that there is no way the earth was formed by chance right ? like , cammon , thats crazy ... ( can of worms slooowly opening )

[Shamus]

one thing we can agree on is that there is no way the earth was formed by chance right ? like , cammon , thats crazy ... ( can of worms slooowly opening )

I think it could certainly be by chance if there are indeed other life-harbouring planets/worlds out there, in either our own universe or some other universe in a network of multiverses. :)

[dogbone]

... i ask the most obvious question , which is , why ? which i suppose fuels a lot of for the ( sometimes lifelong ) answer , being found in religion , or whatever you choose. i think thats another "key" truth to remember we have . we have a choice in life :)

The "why" is irrelevant. Unless one needs to ask it in the context of finding purpose, to life. In this respect (of purpose) I think it is relevent to look at human beings. If there is a purpose for a human being then it must have something to do with being a human being. Further since there is really only a single fundamental difference between human and non human animals, that purpose must revolve around this peculiar difference. This difference is the very same thing that leads one to ask the question in the first place.

Human beings differ from other animals in that they have a fully developed sense of the self. Meaning, they are not only aware but they are conscious of their own awareness as an awareful presence. This causes some problems that are unique to human beings. One of them being an insecurity that can be projected way off into the future. In fact this fundamental insecurity if what is behind all the man made suffering and inhumanity in the world.

But the solution to this fundamental problem caused by our sense of the self is also solved by the ability of this sense of self to inquire into the fundamental problem and discover the Truth of who we really are. It is very clear what we appear to be, but are we what we appear to be? It was obvious to Newton that the speed of light is relative. It's so obvious in fact that you do not need any scientific training to know it. But it's wrong. Quite often in fact what is obvious is wrong.

When you come to understand that a table, while appearing solid is in fact at a fundamental level mostly empty space, you still see it as solid but you understand it's relative reality.

So the purpose in life is to solve the fundamental human problem. But it is a peculiar problem in that our normal ways of solving problems is to use Perception and Inference. But that won't work in this case because the subject is the object. This is usually from my observations an insurmountable problem to grasp. A bit like a video camera being unable to view itself. The self cannot be objectified. But it need not be because it is self evident. Unlike everything else. There are ways of peering into this enigma and the way is with words. Words have a peculiar ability to reveal things that can only be conceptualised, without being objectified.

If the peculiar nature of the human problem is not grasped then one is doomed to for ever being a 'seeker', looking for 'enlightenment' and if one does not go for the religious option whose solution is an unsatisfactory "beleive me", one ends up with the cute sounding but laughably meaningless aphorisms of Buddhism.

If you buy a mirror from a shop you will look at the mirror. Notice if it has any scratches or other marks, if it has a tint or perhaps a bevelled edge. But once you buy the mirror and put it on your wall you don't look at the mirror any longer. When you look at the mirror you look at yourself. Or rather a reflection of yourself. Words can be like that. A word mirror if you like. The words are not you but they can reveal something of what you really are. If they are wielded properly. The person wielding the words that supposedly reveal the truth of your true nature needs to be very clear and unambiguous. They need to know what they are talking about. Fuzzy words like 'divine', 'supreme' etc really have no place here.

The real joke in all this is that all anyone really want's is to be not wanting. And we do have those moments occasionally in life. It is perhaps because we have occassionally and accidentally tasted our heights that no one will happily settle for less. I'll let you in on a little secret. You already are what you want to be, you just don't know it. This is why the problem is one of knowledge not of actions. If anyone ever tells you that you need to do anything, they you can be sure they are talking rubbish.

[solvs]

I would say that a journey of (grimaces) "enlightenment", begins with an analysis of what one wishes to achieve.
And to expand on that often it is the journey, not the destination, that is the important part. Sorry to go all Mr. Miyagi on you, but that's the way I see it. Not that there's no destination, there always will be, but learn to enjoy the ride. And learn from the process. Again, Buddhism can be more the question than the answer, but it can also lead to a semblance of peace. I would also like to point out that the whole "suffering and desire" thing is a very small part of it. It's a lot more complex of an issue, look here (http://www.bltc.com/buddhism-suffering.html) for more info on the 4 Truths.

I've spoken before of belief. Perhaps that is the wrong word. Perhaps idea is a better term (thank you Kevin Smith's Dogma for that). Beliefs are hard to change, ideas are not. You can believe something all you want, whatever gets you through the night, but just because you believe it, doesn't make it true. An idea can be changed, molded based on evidence and experience. Much like theories, but usually more open (though not as easy to prove). You don't have to believe in God... but then, at the same time you don't have to not believe in it either. ;) Especially any god in particular. Sometimes just the pursuit and attempt to understand is all that you really need. See how that works?

[emotion]

I've not read the whole thread but I can recommend a book called 'Siddhartha' by Hermann Hesse.

Personallly I don't put a name on my spirituality but it is closer to Tao/zen than mainstream buddhism simply because I like that approach to life.

Any books by Alan Watts are worth a look too.

[dogbone]

And to expand on that often it is the journey, not the destination, that is the important part. ...look here (http://www.bltc.com/buddhism-suffering.html) ...

Thanks for the link, I always enjoy a good laugh. It's really all so silly. Sorry, it had to be said. As for the "4 Truths" do me a favour. That is such bollox. I'll happily disect it if you like. If one is going to be so lofty as to write Truth with a capital T then Truth should be defined. Hows this for a definition...For something to be true it cannot be denied. Othewise it is only someones version of truth. So...there is only one Truth. You exist. Without proof. You cannot deny you exist.

"The Noble Eight-fold Path can eliminate desire", there's no nice way to say this but out of the four bits of rubbish this is the most imbecillic. Does not the writer of this silly silly tripe 'desire' that his words are understood?

[solvs]

Thanks for the link, I always enjoy a good laugh.
I am merely pointing out what traditional Buddhism is thought to be. Also seen here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism). Didn't say I agreed with it, if that's you're point. If not, I'm not quite sure I understand what you are getting at. I don't really know much about Buddhism, but this is what I've seen. If I am wrong, I wouldn't mind being corrected. You seem to know what you're talking about.

Though perhaps your approach leaves something to be desired. ;)

[Shamus]

This is becoming more difficult as we move along. I can relate to all the comments, from dogbone and solvs, making it increasingly difficult to comment on, because I agree with both of you :p.

Dogbone, as solvs said, you seem to know what you are talking about, so please, feel free to dissect the four truths and eight fold path. But I am beginning to think that we seem to have similar views, but the use of terminology is clouding the situation.

*sits on fence*

BTW, I think this discussion is great, because it allows for a detailed analysis of the topic. :)

EDIT: emotion, thanks for the book recommendation, ill check that out tomorrow :).

[dogbone]

I am merely pointing out what traditional Buddhism is thoughhttp://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2484330&posted=1#post2484330t to be. Also seen here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism). Didn't say I agreed with it, if that's you're point. If not, I'm not quite sure I understand what you are getting at. I don't really know much about Buddhism, but this is what I've seen. If I am wrong, I wouldn't mind being corrected. You seem to know what you're talking about.

Though perhaps your approach leaves something to be desired. ;)

I must apologise, it was nothing to do with you. I got a bit carried away, my approach did leave a lot to be desired but it wasn't out of malice just a bit of misguided passion at this avalanche of bs everywhere. The point (which I didn't make) is that one does not need to know anything about Buddhism to be able to see that the words on that website are trash. I will disect a bit of it if you want and point out where it is wrong and why. :)

EDIT: just saw this so I'll give it a shot...in a short while.

...so please, feel free to dissect the four truths and eight fold path

[solvs]

I must apologise, it was nothing to do with you.
No apologies necessary. More of a misunderstanding. I was merely grabbing a random web page that simplified the beliefs of some traditional Buddhist teachings to point out that it's more complicated than the suffering is caused by desire remark I made. It gets even more complicated than that, which was one of the reasons I didn't choose to dabble much further. And again, I don't agree with it anyway. I didn't even want to touch on the differences between Theravāda, Mahāyāna, and Vajrayāna either, but the OP might. Have fun with that. :p

So, I'm pretty sure I'm actually agreeing with you.

[dogbone]

I'm sorry this will be a bit rambling as I'm just typing as it comes. Ill try and keep it focussed. I'm sorry though but I've gotten a bit carried away...

The Four Noble "Truths".

1. All is suffering.

Not much to say it because it says nothing at all. What is "all"? Jam on toast? is that suffering. This is just waffle.

2. Suffering is caused by desire/attatchment.

Yeah? how so. This is just a bald statement and it is meaningless unless it is backed up. It's an attractive aphorism because it cleverly reinforces our already foolish notions. It seems obvious and therefore does not invite scrutiny. So although Buddhism claims to not be religious it is using all the old religious tricks.

Religion comes along and says "you are fracked", you didn't know your were fracked until I told you but now that you know, I have the key to your salvation, as long as you do what I tell you. Sound familiar?

It's pretty clear that people are suffering, and no one seems to be able to rid themselves of it. If it's not one thing it's another. Money doesn't work, Fame doesn't work, Pleasures are transitory. Maybe if I'm a good person I'll go to heaven and get eternal salvation there. Buddhism is promising 'salvation' by telling that they can solve your problem of suffering by eliminating the cause that they identify as desire/attatchment.

Also knows in the Vedic tradition as Raga/Dvesa, likes and dislikes. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with having a like or dislike. A Raga is only a problem if it becomes 'binding'. When ones happiness or lack of is dependent on the fulfilment of a desire. There is an implicit notion here that one needs to fulfil a desire in order to be happy. And after all, all anyone want's is to be happy.

Although it is true that you can find yourself content in the wake of the fulfilment of a desire a small amount of analysis can show that it is not necessary to fulfil any desire in order to be happy. In fact in order to make a sad person happy you only need to distract their attention. You've heard people say that they are miserable because they have a huge mortgage or something, and that they can't be content as long as it is there. But they might be driving in a strange place one day, worried, and they turn a corner in their car and a surprising mountain vista opens up. There is also a spectacular sunset and for a moment they are carried away. In that timeless moment, nothing has changed. Not their mortgage or their heroin addict son or harridan wife... yet in that moment they have forgotten...what? The notions that they have about themselves. Think about that when one forgets one ideas about oneself one is spontaneously content.

Many pursuits in life are about chasing this 'self forgetfulness' whether it be a holiday or alcohol or a movie or forum whoring or anything any distraction will do. Here's an interesting point to ponder...can you be sad without memory?

So we can see that without doing anything at all and no problems solved no desires fulfilled we can be content. Even the most miserable person on Earth has experienced these moments of perfect contentment for no reason. These crumbs of happiness is what keeps us going. What a sad life eh? Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Sukkha Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Dukkha, Sukkha

Why is this? why do we chase these elusive moments. This is what I was referring to about analysing why one does anything. Everything we do is only for the sake of the pleased self. And it can be seen that we aren't doing to well achieving it are we? Remember the Queen of England talking about her horrible annus? Think about it. Here she is with massive wealth, millions of adoring, fawning subjects, able to buy and do what ever she wants. Fame, Wealth, Security. Yet she complains to us peasants about what a crap year she had.

Notice how no one complains about sleeping. And everyone like to sleep in on monday morning. You check your beard to see if you can skip shaving and thereby stay in bed another 10 minutes. Why is sleep so inviitng. Again because we forget ourselves, or rather our notion of who we think we are.

Buddhism like all religions with a vested interest reinforced these notions.


3. If one can eliminate desire/attachment, one can eliminate suffering.

Well we already seen that if we eliminate the notions we have about who we think we are, our suffering is ended. Why do we complain about not being happy. Notice that no one complains they are happy and we do not console them "don't worry, you'll be unhappy soon". Because no one complains about somethings true nature. We do not complain the fire is hot, or that ice is cold. It is their nature. We may complain that standing next to the ice I am cold, but we don't complain the ice itself is cold. That we don't complain about being happy is because left alone without any effort on our part, we are happy. It is our nature. You have to use your memory and work hard to be unhappy.

So the question becomes should we work for self forgetfulness or self knowlege?

4. The Noble Eight-fold Path can eliminate desire.

Well here is the pure and unashamed religious hook. Follow me and I will make you happy.

Can it? Well let's have a look...

Well I' ve had a look and they are some fine suggestions, Right Speech, Right Conduct, and so on. But these are just more demands made on people that add to their problem. The problem is as I said earlier caused by our ability to be fully self aware of our own awareness. Because of this we are able to make a judgement about ourselves. The conclusion we come to is as inevitable as it is erroneous. Everything we associate with ourselves is limited. We cannot hear like a dog, see like an eagle. I'm not strong like an elephant. I sometimes find myself with thoughts that I don't want to have, I might be jealous, angry envious. I don't like these thoughts and I can't control them. Everything that I associate with what I call "I" is limited. So the conclusion I am able to come to is...I am limited, wanting, small, insignificant, lacking. What we want is to be limitless. In those moments of perfect contentment, when perhaps we gaze at the stars and we don't want anything to be different. It's these moments that our lives are always chasing.

We try to replicate situations but it doesn't seem to work. We go on the same holiday as the year before, we get the same hotel room, everything is the same. Even the weather is the same. But for some reason we aren't content like we remember. You are about to tuck into your favourite dessert when a call arrives on your mobile...your friend was killed in a car accident. Everthing has to be right in this elusive moments yet there are all these other things that we have no control over that interfer. You finally purchase your dream home only to have 4 hells angels move in next door who like to ride their bikes at 3am.

Even in meditation. People sit there, watching their thoughts. Trying to be a good person a person they'd like to see themselves to be. An acceptable person in their own eyes. They sit there and after a few moments their mind wanders and they are off on a reverie. After this happens a few times they end up worse than before they 'meditated'. They now judge themselves to be so useless that they can't even meditate for 20 minutes. They have just added to their negative self judgement.

So if some fracking imbecile tells you that desires are causing your problems you are even worse off because of course you will desire. One needs to analyse desire and what they are about. You will find that if their purpose is to be happy that they won't work. So they can be seen for what they are. Just simple facts. So you need not do anything and you need not give up anything. Desires are not the problem. The problem is centred on the self. I am the problem.

Now if it is true that you are indeed what you take yourself to be then you are fracked. There's nothing you can do about it. But what if it isn't true. What if your notions that who you think you are are not true? What if the speed of light is absolute and time and space are relative?

You see Buddhism is making the same classic mistake of telling you that there is something to do. In fact the truth of the matter is that you are not want you take yourself to be. What if you were in fact the whole? What if you were in fact what you want to be. Then the problem would be one of knowledge, not of action.

The problem is like the man who has pushed his glasses up on his head and answers the door then looks everywhere for his glasses. He thinks the problem is that he needs his glasses but he doesn't know that he already has his glasses what he requires is knowlege not action. Or how about God grants someone a wish. He asks for a head on his shoulders. God replies, I'm sorry I can't do that. The man says that either you mean you don't have the power to do it or you can but you refuse. But you must have the power because you are God, are you saying you refuse? God says, sorry I can't do it. I can give you another head next to the one you have or one on either side but I cannot give you what you already have.

[dogbone]

...cont

This is the joke of life. We search to be what we already are. This is why there is nothing to do only something to know. Because we judge ourselves to be unacceptable we seek approval from others. But it wouldn't matter if God himself appeared before us and said. "OK, I'm God and I'm telling you in my eyes you are OK" You'd just say "well you would say that because your're God and you're just being kind" because I know my faults very well and I'm not OK. I'm a ratbag. You see the joke? We seek approval from others but even if we get it it won't help. Someone says "I love you" and we feel good. Then we want to know "what is it about me you love"? We want to try to see ourselves acceptable through someone elses eyes. You know the you will never accept yourself as you are unless the self *is* acceptable. Which it is. Again a matter of knowing, not doing.

But where to start? There's so much idiocy and foolishness. I will say though that the answer to the fundamental problem is not Buddhism.

[thedude110]

As many people have pointed out, some of the Buddhist beliefs are amazing, and some of them 'not so clear'. Such as "suffering is derived from desire".

You're not the only one in the West who has an instinctual reaction to this claim: as soaked in capital as we are (and a primary function of capital is to create desire), I think there's a large, unspoken understanding that desire causes suffering in two ways: by creating a false sense of incompleteness (making us regard ourselves by what we do not own) and by creating a false sense of the human (replacing natural human desire with produced human desire).

I think what Buddhism essentially provides is scaffolding toward understanding -- it provides a set world view that opens a given set of ideas (thus the first step on the eight fold path is acceptance of the four noble truths) toward tranquility. While my tendency is to resist anything institutional, you don't necessarily have to be put off by this -- we all have our given "world views" and in accepting the four noble truths, you are to a degree eschewing your world view for another (thus I call it a "lifestyle change" above). But it can't be ignored how much peace Buddhism brings into the lives of many of those who practice it -- especially those who are genuinely living lives of suffering.

[solvs]

dogbone, although I can't say I agree with everything you've said, I think your last post(s) summed things up pretty well. Just to further clarify, I was posting links with information about traditional Buddhist beliefs, not endorsing them. Actually quite the opposite. Like any religion, it does have it's positives and various interpretations, but there are also rules that can actually get in the way of what the OP seems to be seeking. Also, it seems to raise more questions than it answers and guides you to live by rules that may be counter to your nature.

It's funny though db, you almost sound like more of a Taoist.

You're not the only one in the West who has an instinctual reaction to this claim:
You are correct. This is one of the problems of Buddhism, or almost any religion for that matter. Some things seem to be steadfast rules, but they are still easily misinterpreted. Reading the cartoon here (http://www.dharmathecat.com/), you can see where someone who's trying so hard to be what he thinks he should be, he's completely missing the point. I'm sure we are oversimplifying, or perhaps overcomplicating like the links I posted, but that was kinda my original point. True Buddhism, from what I can tell, is a lot harder than just letting go of material desire, but can be a lot easier than people make it out to be. Sometimes both.

You should research it some more Shamus, but I have to point out that if you get caught up in the semantics, you're missing the point. ;)