Apple pulling support out of India

[SeaFox]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1611960.cms

Welcome news to many people here I'm sure.

[netdog]

I thought the folks in Bangalore were pretty good.

[clayj]

Absolutely good news.

If Apple (or Microsoft, or Dell, or anyone else) want to open a support center in India for the purpose of supporting customers in India and nearby countries, then that's great. But when I call an American company for tech support from here in the US, I expect to talk to someone in the US (or Canada at the very least). This isn't racism or anything; I'd have just as big an issue with it if they hired Highland Scotsmen to man the support lines. I can't understand people with strong non-American accents, and when I am calling in for tech support, the last thing I need is any sort of communication barrier between myself and the support tech.

[MacsomJRR]

Woohoo! If only Dell were so smart.

[Eraserhead]

when I am calling in for tech support, the last thing I need is any sort of communication barrier between myself and the support tech.

I totally agree with this point, it's generally more difficult to communicate with people from another country as they don't understand your culture and colloquialisms, especially by phone, and the job must suck, especially as a lot of people probably treat them badly.

[Kardashian]

I can't understand people with strong non-American accents, and when I am calling in for tech support, the last thing I need is any sort of communication barrier between myself and the support tech.

100% agree. That is exactly how I put it when I have one of my rants about FOREIGN (Not Indian) tech support.

Canadian/American, Most European, and British/Irish = I can understand fine.

When I have a problem that someone cannot help me with physically, and verbal communication is the only way of solving it - the last thing I need is a language barrier, or someone who cannot pronounce my name.

"Jishena Timas" (Joshua Thomas) :o

[irmongoose]

Well that's too bad for the locals... I had hoped that the introduction of Apple into the Bangalore support centers would have instigated some sort of awareness-program in India. I guess India will forever be Windows World. :o

But I give a pat on the back to Apple - no need to be a part of the rudimentary PC-ness of support outsourcing.




irmongoose

[Sdashiki]

Im not racist, im just customer service oriented.

And when you get an Indian Call Center, there is always a 2sec delay from when you talk and they hear, so you CANT have a two way conversation, which is usually what CS is all about.

Not to mention that the "training" these people recieve is to speak "english" and I must say they all need to go back to school.

http://www.illwillpress.com/tech2.html
http://www.illwillpress.com/tech3.html

[netdog]

I stand by what I said. They were doing a good job.

[Sdashiki]

If you could understand them and the static/cutting out wasnt there.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Absolutely good news.

If Apple (or Microsoft, or Dell, or anyone else) want to open a support center in India for the purpose of supporting customers in India and nearby countries, then that's great. But when I call an American company for tech support from here in the US, I expect to talk to someone in the US (or Canada at the very least). This isn't racism or anything; I'd have just as big an issue with it if they hired Highland Scotsmen to man the support lines. I can't understand people with strong non-American accents, and when I am calling in for tech support, the last thing I need is any sort of communication barrier between myself and the support tech.You are 100% right and it looks like Apple agrees.:)

[longofest]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

According to the IndiaTimes (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1611960.cms), Apple is deciding against placing its previously reported (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2006/03/20060310174449.shtml) foreign support center in India.

At a meeting on May 29, Apple announced its decision to lay off all its [Indian support] employees. Apple officials told them that "the company is reevaluating its operations and has thought of pulling back its Indian operations".

Apple is giving these employees a severance package of two months salary. It will settle all claims on June 9. When contacted, Steve Dowling, an Apple spokesperson, said, "We have re-evaluated our plans and have decided to put our planned support centre growth in other countries."

[FragTek]

Woohoo! If only Dell were so smart.
Dell relies too heavily on tech support. It's completely unfeasible to try and give US based tech support for a company so large with as many crappy products as they have which constantly need troubleshooting.

Dell would probably go out of business if they were to try and open support centers in the US to take place of all of the Indian based centers rofl.

[Mord]

i like the phone support in the UK, i usually get an irish person, and the irish accent is the most soothing accent for phone support, i dont mind who gives phone support as long as they are good.


tbh i like microsofts indian support, generally if you call them up with install or activation issues they will just issue annother CD key

[mmmcheese]

Some of the worst tech support I've ever had (as far as language barrier) was with someone with a really thick southern US (Texas?) accent.

[Willis]

Im not racist, im just customer service oriented.

And when you get an Indian Call Center, there is always a 2sec delay from when you talk and they hear, so you CANT have a two way conversation, which is usually what CS is all about.

Not to mention that the "training" these people recieve is to speak "english" and I must say they all need to go back to school.

http://www.illwillpress.com/tech2.html
http://www.illwillpress.com/tech3.html

lol, i love that site. small medium or large was good.

Tech 1 was good if you ever saw it. Foamy was telling the guy a possibility of how to answer a problem and it was bios dealings. the words 'Get a Mac' came to mind.

However, in the UK, we get Scottish Indians on our call centres for TV and or mail order things. Really bizzare. And they cant pronouce Italian names to save their lives!

[Willis]

i like the phone support in the UK, i usually get an irish person, and the irish accent is the most soothing accent for phone support, i dont mind who gives phone support as long as they are good.


tbh i like microsofts indian support, generally if you call them up with install or activation issues they will just issue annother CD key

i must remember that one :D

OR, do what i did. Install it on the laptop, take it back to the store, and say "my CD drive wouldnt read it, yet read everything else." the girl gave me another box... saved myself £130

[FleurDuMal]

I've had some perfectly smooth experiences with technical support based in India. However, I've also had horrendous experiences.

There's nothing wrong with the principle of outsourcing customer support to India, or anywhere in the World. It's when the standards of recruiting are so poor that they don't seem to require that they have an easily understandable accent in order to take a job where communication is everything.

[Collin973]

Way to go apple. Maybe sometime some jobs will be given back to Americans...though, sadly yes, it is incrediably cost effective to have tech support in foreign countries...

[59031]

Thank God.

I am totally against outsourcing, esp tech support to India.

I want U.S. or Canadians (at most) only.

Not Apu who tells you his name is "James".

[dmw007]

Thank You Apple! :) :) :) :)

Glad that you are not going the route (outsourcing of tech support calls to people who can not understand you and vice-versa) of Dell and all of those other wretched PeeCee companies.

[rockthecasbah]

wasn't there a rumor a few months back of huge expansion of Apple's Indian Tech support with a new facility? :confused:

[Stella]

Customers are getting fed up with support staff who cannot speak english well ( or any other language that is being supported ).

AS many companies have discovered, initially, it may seem like the company is saving money.. but in the long run customers will go to another company for better customer service.

[floriflee]

As someone who provides Tech Support for a living I can give a little insight into this. First of all, just because the call center is getting closed down in India doesn't necessarily mean that you will never have to deal with a "foreign" accent again. There are several foreigners that have come from various parts of the world that have worked as Tech Support Engineers for the last two companies I've worked for here in the U.S. They live and work in the U.S., but they still speak with their foreign accent (albeit, it may not be as strong as it could be--at least for some). So in a globalized world such as ours this is something that we all need to get used to to some degree. Honestly, I've found that some of the better support that can be given has come from my foreign co-workers. They really can be top-notch at their job, and I'd venture to say that some of the locals could learn a thing or two from them. :)

[BlackLilyNinja]

Absolutely good news.

If Apple (or Microsoft, or Dell, or anyone else) want to open a support center in India for the purpose of supporting customers in India and nearby countries, then that's great. But when I call an American company for tech support from here in the US, I expect to talk to someone in the US (or Canada at the very least). This isn't racism or anything; I'd have just as big an issue with it if they hired Highland Scotsmen to man the support lines. I can't understand people with strong non-American accents, and when I am calling in for tech support, the last thing I need is any sort of communication barrier between myself and the support tech.

I appreciate the canadian nod.... and I agree for the most part with the principles of communication between support and customer. I once worked for an outsourcing company for US internet support. Its just as silly when a non spanish speaking English or french Canadian can not communicate with the Spanish/non-english or french speaking customer. I don't know why there are not more choices for customers.

However..
(off-topic)
the hurricanes will lose... condemning 4 edmonton souls to be humiliated by their hometown team.

[FragTek]

wasn't there a rumor a few months back of huge expansion of Apple's Indian Tech support with a new facility? :confused:
Yes... If you would have read the article it outlines this.

[Nikkobengco]

Hey, when it comes to call centers or tech support, it is not always INDIA. Do you know the lil country called the PHILIPPINES? They are better than the tech support guys in india when it comes to speaking good english, (hey, im not a racist ok, im just stating a fact). Filipinos are way better in speaking in english because they don't have a strong indian accent, most of them, if not all, have a neutral accent. Most of the filipinos sound like canadian, or people from california. Filipinos have neutral accents.

Dell, well, yeah, they have at least 4 contact centers in india, but then, recently, this february of 2006, they started their operations in the PHILIPPINES. So if you have a dell computer, and called their hotline, and you somehow heard that you're actually not speaking with an indian guy, then that means, you are speaking with a filipino.


Hey, by the way, i am half japanese, half filipino. I live in the philippines and work in Dell contact center (of course, here in the philippines) as tech support assistant. I maybe speaking with you soon. hehehe.


Filipinos are better let me tell you. try it. call dell hotline. if you hear a neutral accent speaking technician, then he / she is a filipino.


I just wish that apple would establish their contact center in the philippines, i would sure love to work for them. hehe. but i love my company now, dell is really providing us with a lot of benefits. I can never really complain.

[Rocket Rion]

People people people. This is not the end of Indian tech support from Apple! They may be stopping their own plans, but Apple will continue to use Transworks in Bangalore for tier 1 ipod and computer support. They might decide to increase Transworks support instead now.

[swingerofbirch]

Apple should consider the expanding American work at home agent market. I do at home inbound order processing--it can be cheaper for companies than outsourcing because there are no minimum wage requirements or health care obligations for work at home agents. I get paid $.17/minute which according to the company I work for's marketing, is cheaper than labor in India.

(If anyone is interested, I do inbound bilingual (English/Spanish--although mostly Spanish) Pizza Hut orders--from Florida to Hawaii).

[Nikkobengco]

Apple should just establish their contact centers here in the philippines. Really. Filipinos are better in communications skills. And alot of you guys would never even notice you are speaking with a filipino because filipinos are good in mimicking accents. WE have neutral accents, and whenever i speak with an american and have him/her guess where im from, he/she will say he/she doesn't have any idea , and some say i maybe from canada.

I am now working in dell, and previously, i work in an outsourcing call center, and our account there was BESTBUY. Yes, BESTBUY, you've heard me right. All of the americans ive spoken with there thought i am from canada, or sometimes california. Bestbuy is instructing us to tell americans that we are from minneapolis, lolz, but the americans couldn't believe i am from minneapolis because i sound like an american from california, or maybe canada. Coz i can't do a minneapolis accent. I can only try to have a neutral one.

[jessica.]

I'm glad. I don't care that the US and their efforts to offshore created a nice padded middle-class in India. It is un-American if you ask me. Don't call me a racist, call me American. If I were in the UK and they were offshoring jobs, I'd consider it to be the same thing, only UK not America.

Bottom line is I stand around all day watching the parade of people from India come into my office wearing polo shirts with my company logo on it interviewing each of the managers, whether they're capable or not, to decide what can be offshored to their country. What cannot be offshored they find a reason why it can be automated. What cannot be offshored or automated is trimmed....or done away with.

We outsource to India and Mexico. Our staff of 300 call center people in California is down to 50. 100 are in another state and 200 more are in India and Mexico. IT is India now unless you lose your password. Seems as though I lose my password every time my computer crashes because I refuse to talk to IT in India.

I am not opposed to people in India handling anything, but when my friends are sitting around without a job because they were laid off last week, I feel like there is no loyalty to anyone any longer.

[kev0476]

all i can say is boo-ya!

Hopefully they don't just move it to china.

[Demoman]

Dell provides support to its' business and other repeat buyers. Once Dell has a home computer buyer's money, they definitely do not want to hear from them again. If those users have issues with the tech support, they could care less. They have fulfilled their obligation. In the execution of this 'business model' they are not going to spend a dime (inflation) more than they have to.

What I dislike in any tech support is someone on the other end of the line reading from "Solve Problem 101". It seems to happen much more frequently with foreign support centers. I suspect that is the way they have been set-up and their staff follows to the letter. I find I am much more likely to get a 'unprogrammed' tech support person if the center is located in the US. These are generalities, so please accept them as such.

[Nikkobengco]

Well, demoman, you see, most of us tech support technicians, already have the answer or solution to the problem, but the problem is finding it in our system. You probably don't get it, because you are not working in a contact center, but heres how it goes. If we know the answer, we have to find the answer in our own system for us to be able to log it down. Example, i know that the solution to the prob of the customer is to just press the power button for 6 seconds. But you know what the problem is, we have to search thru millions of articles to find that answer, in our system. It seems odd. Or a delay to the customer, because why couldn't just we tell that to the customer and have to wait til we finally be able to find the steps in our system?

well, indians, from what i've read from the internet, have a tendency of sounding like they are reading from a script, because the steps or solution they have on the screen, they just read it, and never rephrase it.

well, we filipinos, have an advantage on that. We don't sound like we are reading from a script. have you ever spoken with a filipino over the phone? try calling bestbuy hotline, at 1800bestbuy.

[NorCalLights]

They live and work in the U.S., but they still speak with their foreign accent (albeit, it may not be as strong as it could be--at least for some). So in a globalized world such as ours this is something that we all need to get used to to some degree. Honestly, I've found that some of the better support that can be given has come from my foreign co-workers.

I couldn't agree more. But that's because my problem with "foreign" tech support has less to do with people's accents and more to do with the static and delay that makes it hard to have a two-way conversation in the first place. Technology has come a long way in making it possible to call anywhere in the world, but the latency issues are more a function of physics than they are of technology.

As another person posted, just because someone was born in the U.S. doesn't mean that I'll be able to understand them. Heck, sometimes I can't even understand our president (but that's a different thread).

[kumbaya]

Im not racist, im just customer service oriented.

And when you get an Indian Call Center, there is always a 2sec delay from when you talk and they hear, so you CANT have a two way conversation, which is usually what CS is all about.

Not to mention that the "training" these people recieve (sic) is to speak "english" and I must say they all need to go back to school.

http://www.illwillpress.com/tech2.html
http://www.illwillpress.com/tech3.html

I know it's toooo easy, but I just couldn't resist!

"Finally, the desk, where we'll have our picture taken in front of -- is nine other Presidents used it. This was given to us by Queen Victoria in the 1870s, I think it was. President Roosevelt put the door in so people would not know he was in a wheelchair. John Kennedy put his head out the door." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 5, 2006

"And so I'm for medical liability at the federal level." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., March 10, 2006

I guess that just leaves the 2 sec delay as a problem then....:rolleyes:

[alienex]

I am absoultely thrilled with the news.

[MacQuest]

Haven't read through all the posts, but all I can say is "THANK GAWD!!!"

Please don't misunderstand me, this has nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with supporting the US job market.

My feelings aside, over the past few years I have seen a steady increase in switchers PRIMARILY because of this outsourcing issue. Most have been Dell customers who did not like dealing with their Indian support center, both because it took jobs from the US market and because of the obvious frustration of trying to get help on an already infuriating windows issue, from someone that they can't fully comprehend.

Most recently [and unexpectedly] however, I have had quite a few customers coming in and asking me which computer companies utilize operations in China, because they [paraphrasing] "do not want to purchase anything from those companies who are dealing with a communist country that blatantly commits human rights violations".

After looking into this, I found that ALL the computer companies do, including Apple, so they have no choice but to go with the lesser of the "evils" because not using a computer is not an option.

Most of those customers end up switching to Mac because at least Apple's packaging has class and doesn't look like it rolled out of a Chinese assembly plant [even though Macs are assembled there] with the typical windows box manufacturer's brown box and stickers slapped all over it.

Also, the very prominent "Designed by Apple in California" writing you see when you open the box helps too.

[MacQuest]

Some of the worst tech support I've ever had (as far as language barrier) was with someone with a really thick southern US (Texas?) accent.

HA!!! Me too!

But at least it was still a job that stayed here in the US for a US resident.

I've had some perfectly smooth experiences with technical support based in India. However, I've also had horrendous experiences.

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, its the horrendous experiences that will be remembered more often and accounted for in the business world.

[phatpat88]

I stand by what I said. They were doing a good job.


I do not doubt that the staff in india was well trained and worked very hard, however, i do prefer my tech support to be in North America or Europe during odd hours] as it feels more personal than someone halfway across the world. {just like buying from a mom and pop shop over wallmart}

[MacQuest]

wasn't there a rumor a few months back of huge expansion of Apple's Indian Tech support with a new facility? :confused:

Uh, yeah. The article linked in this thread is simply stating that Apple has now changed it's mind about that previous fact [it wasn't a rumor].

[javierbds]

tbh i like microsofts indian support, generally if you call them up with install or activation issues they will just issue annother CD key

TBH I HATE Microsoft's 'spanish' support, based in northern Africa (but not Saharauis indeed). Spanish has only 5 vowel sounds but they skip-miss-mix at least 2 ... They have most of America (and a few places in the same latitude in Africa) to choose from if they do not want to put it in Spain but MS is just so f*#∞¬@ up ... Oh, and they 'support' you by reading a script for idiots ... And they will not skip a line even if you ask them with tears in your eyes ... And last time I called I got the impression the kid who answered me was not even of legal age to work (can't put my hand on a fire for that, and I do not even know what they consider legal ...) ... :mad:

[it5five]

I've had A LOT more trouble understanding texans/other people in the south than I have indian tech support. Plus, most of the Americans are giant assholes when I call for tech support. The foreign support people at least pretend to be nice, which is amazing because I'm sure they talk to a lot of assholes all day.

[shadowmoses]

Please let this be so!!! They hardly speak english and are impossible to undertstand......When I called up for help with my old G5 all i got was a guy reading out the service manuals form the Apple support website, nice guy but he didn't know what he was on about....

ShadoW

[Peterkro]

Don't any of you guys see the irony of Americans complaining about people in other countries being unable to speak English.:rolleyes:

[bigandy]

tis a good thing.

when i worked for sky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Sky_Broadcasting) a few years back they started a callcentre out there, and within 3 months trashed it and went back to scotland. so now instead of someone you just can't understand on the other end of the line, most subscribers (based in england) call up and get a load of neds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neds) they still barely understand.

[solvs]

Don't any of you guys see the irony of Americans complaining about people in other countries being unable to speak English.:rolleyes:
What does ironing have to do with it?

Kidding (Simpsons reference)... but seriously, yeah, it's kinda funny. I've had some good experiences and bad experiences with both. I'm glad they aren't outsourcing as much, but it's expensive to pay people a decent wage here so I don't blame them for trying. I'm sure someone else will use the facility, they all got some training and 2 months severance, and who knows, maybe they'll use them in the future for EurAsia-based support so all us 'Mericans can quit complaining that they took our jobs (South Park reference).

[bigandy]

Don't any of you guys see the irony of Americans complaining about people in other countries being unable to speak English.:rolleyes:

rofl :)

[rockthecasbah]

Yes... If you would have read the article it outlines this.
i had actually just skimmed the article and missed that part :o .

Well i am certainly in support of better tech support, but i must admit i didn't have many problems at all with the fact that the people that helped me were indian. I didn't have 2 second delays, language barriers, or anything like that. What annoyed me the most was very long waits on hold...

[myke]

Who are you calling a ned? Do you want to make something of it? <P>Seriously, I can't understand all this stuff about accents ...I have lived in Scotland for 30 years and I'm Welsh but sound English. No problems with Americans, Indians, Phillipinos or any other nationality, so long as they can speak reasonable English and are articulate. The problem is more to do with(whereever they are) not knowing their stuff.

tis a good thing.

when i worked for sky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Sky_Broadcasting) a few years back they started a callcentre out there, and within 3 months trashed it and went back to scotland. so now instead of someone you just can't understand on the other end of the line, most subscribers (based in england) call up and get a load of neds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neds) they still barely understand.

[monty100]

Hi...like most people who have replied to this I am not in the slightest bit racist but I have been so incensed over the past month due to having a faulty macbookpro and applecare but no one understanding what I am saying or able to help me. As mentioned there is a 3 second delay on the calls so having a conversation is nigh on impossible. The customer care people are all very nice and apolegetic but alas I havent found them in the least but helpful in terms of sorting my problem out. I also have a problem with forking out so much money on apple care but having to spend 10p a minute to speak to someone in India when the upshot is that the call has cost me over £4 yet I was no further forward in getting the problem resolved. Come on Apple make the customer care is good as your products and retail environment :(

[RodThePlod]

I've never had any problems with the support I've received from people in, (I presume), Bangalore, India.

My electicity services company seems to re-route my calls there when I call from the UK.

On one occasion, I was mildly interested to find out where the person I was speaking to was based. The conversation went something like this:

RodThePlod: "so... if you don't mind me asking, where are you actually based?"

Operator: "Oh.. I'm based in London."

RodThePlod: "Oh... really?! lovely weather we're having today isn't it?" (I was lying - it had been raining heavily for most of the day and it was supposed to be the height of summer :o)

Operator: "Yes - wonderful weather isn't, it?"

RodThePlod: "So - which part of London are you actually based in?"

Operator: "Ummm.... Birmingham, Sir".

:eek:

I wasn't really concerned since they were helpful - I just thought it was funny :)

RodC
--
www.expodition.com - for iPod users who love to travel
Check out my lens at Squidoo: http://www.squidoo.com/PodSnapShots

[SiliconAddict]

http://home.comcast.net/~jonnormand/FooledYou.jpg

HA HA! FOOLED YOU!

[SiliconAddict]

I've never had any problems with the support I've received from people in, (I presume), Bangalore, India.

Then you have gotten lucky. Buy a Dell product sometime. Call them up. My company's helpdesk is based out of India. They aren't bad...even though they can't spell...deployed worth a dang. Dell's reps? I'd have an easier time understanding white noise. Heck I can understand a thick Scottish accent more easily then I can an Indian one. Of all the places on the world WHY did it have to be India that companies are outsourcing too? As best as I can tell Indians speak quicker which is part of the problem. But that coupled with the accent makes things doubly as difficult.

[floriflee]

Of all the places on the world WHY did it have to be India that companies are outsourcing too? As best as I can tell Indians speak quicker which is part of the problem. But that coupled with the accent makes things doubly as difficult.

One reason for doing it.... very cheap labor from very technically minded people. Admittedly, India has some top notch IT schools so they have good resources for learning the technical material. There is a huge focus/push to have kids over there to either become engineers or doctors. So when you have over 1 billion people with a big push like that you have practically unlimited resources to pull from to acquire your tech support base (and for relatively cheap). So, on paper they seem very qualified technically. Allbeit they may lack interpersonal skills when talking with a westerner, or may still have some issues understanding our accents/terminology. The ones that are bad are probably either really new or have to deal with so many different kinds of issues that it becomes difficult to become an expert on any of them. Not trying to justify--just making a conjecture based on my own experience. Still, companies can hire around 8-10 Indians per U.S./Western employee. Not to mention they probably don't have to pay other benefits like health care insurance and such. That turns into a significant cost savings.

Not saying that it's very nice for the U.S./Western employees, but it makes sense as to why they're doing it. One drawback is you have the language barrier along with some cultural differences that Indians may not understand about westerners and vice versa so that causes a fair amount of malice/uproar. Customers want more than anything to feel like they are getting the attention they deserve or at least getting their money's worth and are getting valuable help. As long as they see an outsourced support center as providing lower quality service they will continue to believe that they are being undervalued and being cheated by the company supporting them. I guess, in a way, that's good for me because that provides me with a bit more job security.

[bericd]

I'd much rather hear and Indian accent than a southern US accent any day of the week.

In my experience the better informed support comes from overseas, and I think I know why:

In the US, level one phone support is generally given by people who can't do better, or who are at the bottom of whatever career ladder they're climbing. In India, to get this sort of work you already have to be well above average, and have a drive to be educated.

I might be making generalizations, but my experience backs this up.

[Core Trio]

Well, demoman, you see, most of us tech support technicians, already have the answer or solution to the problem, but the problem is finding it in our system. You probably don't get it, because you are not working in a contact center, but heres how it goes. If we know the answer, we have to find the answer in our own system for us to be able to log it down. Example, i know that the solution to the prob of the customer is to just press the power button for 6 seconds. But you know what the problem is, we have to search thru millions of articles to find that answer, in our system. It seems odd. Or a delay to the customer, because why couldn't just we tell that to the customer and have to wait til we finally be able to find the steps in our system?

well, indians, from what i've read from the internet, have a tendency of sounding like they are reading from a script, because the steps or solution they have on the screen, they just read it, and never rephrase it.

well, we filipinos, have an advantage on that. We don't sound like we are reading from a script. have you ever spoken with a filipino over the phone? try calling bestbuy hotline, at 1800bestbuy.


seriously...get off the filipino thing. im sure your tech support is great but you've posted about it four times now.

[floriflee]

^^^^^Personally, I've had a couple of lousy experiences calling the Best Buy support line. The people sounded very disaffected and disinterested--like I was inconveniencing them for calling....

Granted, I've also had a few nice people at their PartSearch dept, but their support ain't anywhere near perfect. :rolleyes:

[BenRoethig]

I really don't care where the call center is at, as long as the person can speak english clearly and fluently. Like someone here has said, I've had as much trouble with someone from the deep south as I have with foreign call centers.

[superbovine]

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=5E5CFRTTBPDOAQSNDBOCKHSCJUMEKJVN?articleID=188701519&subSection=

[mac4drew]

Some of the worst tech support I've ever had (as far as language barrier) was with someone with a really thick southern US (Texas?) accent.

I've had A LOT more trouble understanding texans/other people in the south than I have indian tech support.

Some Indian customer service reps are trained to speak with a very thick Texan/Southern American accent in order to cover up their real accent.

And here (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04083/289930.stm) is proof:

Because of a backlash from American, British and Australian clients, however, most Indian call centers no longer ask employees to try to imitate Western accents. Fake Southern drawls with an Indian tinge are out.

It's very likely that any time you've been annoyed with a southern sounding person, they're actually an Indian person trained to speak that way.

[Makosuke]

I really don't care where the call center is at, as long as the person can speak english clearly and fluently. Like someone here has said, I've had as much trouble with someone from the deep south as I have with foreign call centers.
Larger financial/social issues aside, that's the bottom line to the consumer. And that's really the unfortunate issue with English--there is no "right way" to speak it. There are plenty of wrong ways, but there are dozens of perfectly acceptable accents depending on where you live. In fact, even some Indian accents can be considered to be legit, since it's evolved that way after the past century or so of British influence.

Case in point: I work with a very bright youngish Indian guy studying here in the US for his Masters. He graduated from IIT, a very prestigious technical university system in India. He's fairly well off, and even at home says that he spoke basically two languages all his life, one of which was English.

Now, he is 100% fluent in English--speaks it just as comfortably and gramatically accurate as any born-and-raised American. But he has an Indian accent (including the occasional amusing British-influenced expression). Not because he learned to speak English and couldn't drop the accent, because that's the way it's spoken there, and has been for a long time. No different from a Southern accent, or that highly amusing (to everybody else) Minnesota accent.

As for the call center issue, it comes down to this: 1st level tech support is as much customer service as technical work anyway, since most of what they handle are "dumb" questions that can be answered from a script anyway ("Where do I plug in my iPod? How do I eject a CD? My Mac won't turn on."). Having an easy-to-understand accent that is common in the country you're handling calls from (and preferably some cultural familiarity as well, to help with communication) seems like I should be as big a priority as being able to handle the questions. And I'll note that while a lot of Northerners have a tough time with a strong Southern drawl, thanks to movies I don't think most Southerners have trouble understanding a Yankee. Sad, maybe, but a fact. I'm guessing (though I could be totally wrong) the same applies to a "proper" British accent in England versus folk with a strong Scottish or Welsh accent.

It's the same reason I wouldn't hire someone with a very strong accent to anchor a news program, or man the front desk at my company--you want that person to be easy to understand. Now, once I get up to level 2, where it's tehncial prowess that counts, I could care less what accent the person has as long as they know their stuff.

Thanks to the internet soaking up a lot of "DIY" help, you basically have two kinds of people calling 1st level tech support: People who have no idea what they're doing and need a lot of handholding, and people who know what they're doing and have a serious problem that either requires warranty service or escalation to a more experienced tech. The ones who've already exhausted the online info that is probably the same as the script being read from don't want to be forced to go through a dozen steps they've already tried just because the list says so, and the inexperienced ones are only going to get even more frustrated when they can't clearly understand the person on the other end of the line.

[KEL9000]

i think the true irony of the thread are the posters that say: "I am not racist but..." I am intolerant of others (southerners or indians).

The actual problem has nothing to do with language. It is cultural, Europeans and Asians communicate their feelings differently. This is reason why you feel like the Indian is dissing you, when in reallity she just has a different way of expression. This would be evident in any language.

... but I have black friends.

[blitzkrieg79]

Racist or not, I am glad that Apple is pulling out of India. American jobs for American people.

[HiroProtagonist]

Not that I ever call tech support, but excellent news regardless :D

[Makosuke]

i think the true irony of the thread are the posters that say: "I am not racist but..." I am intolerant of others (southerners or indians).

The actual problem has nothing to do with language. It is cultural, Europeans and Asians communicate their feelings differently.The cultural issue is very real, but frankly we're talking about low-level tech support here, so it doesn't come into play that much. The problem comes when my 80-year-old dad calls up the tech hotline and can't understand what the guy on the other end of the phone is saying.

And I repeat, just because I'm a young guy who happens to be good with acents thanks to being married to a Japanese woman and speaking two languages at home doesn't mean it's that easy for everybody who calls tech support. When you've got a midwesterner who's panicking because their computer isn't working, AND just spend 30 minutes on hold, the last thing their frayed nerves need is a tech support person they just can't understand.

And it has nothing to do with tolerance--my mom's very tolerant and quite bright, and my wife speaks English at least as well as most Indian tech support people, but sometimes she just can't figure out a word that seems perfectly clear to me.

Again, when you're trying to help out someone who in all likelihood is calling tech support because they're confused by their computer, trying to figure out an accent on top of the explanation is just plain frustrating.

Oh, and there's nothing racist about wanting as much money I spend on a computer as possible to go back into the economy of the country I live in--most of it already ends up in Taiwan, China, or Mexico, at least the support jobs could be in the country of purchase. I'd expect someone from India, Japan, or Iraq to feel exactly the same way. It's self-interested, maybe, but not racist.

[Peterkro]

Oh, and there's nothing racist about wanting as much money I spend on a computer as possible to go back into the economy of the country I live in--most of it already ends up in Taiwan, China, or Mexico, at least the support jobs could be in the country of purchase. I'd expect someone from India, Japan, or Iraq to feel exactly the same way. It's self-interested, maybe, but not racist.
I think you'll find most of the money ends up with the shareholders of Apple and their partner companies shareholders,I find it difficult to understand the loyalty to the piece of dirt you live on,to be honest your being ripped off by capitalists wherever they live.

[aprilfools]

I am a Mac guy 100% but my wife has a Dell Laptop and I have had to call Dell Service quite a few time over the last couple of years. I get switched over to tech support in India. I can't understand but every fourth word they say. I dont care how helpful and knowledgeable they are if they can't communicate.

I want tech support in ENGLISH! SPEAK ENGLISH!!PERIOD!!!!!!!

[Peterkro]

I am a Mac guy 100% but my wife has a Dell Laptop and I have had to call Dell Service quite a few time over the last couple of years. I get switched over to tech support in India. I can't understand but every fourth word they say. I dont care how helpful and knowledgeable they are if they can't communicate.

I want tech support in ENGLISH! SPEAK ENGLISH!!PERIOD!!!!!!!

Have you ever considered the possibility it may be you who can't communicate.

PS 350 million people in India speak English most of them better than Brits let alone Americans.

[floriflee]

I think you'll find most of the money ends up with the shareholders of Apple and their partner companies shareholders,I find it difficult to understand the loyalty to the piece of dirt you live on,to be honest your being ripped off by capitalists wherever they live.

I think it has something to do with the fact that you want to know that jobs are available for you in the event that you need one. Not to mention, you want to know that your economy is strong (or stronger) because that most likely means there are meaningful/useful/decent-paying jobs available. Lastly, as someone who provides tech support, I don't want my job to be taken away from me. :D

[aprilfools]

Have you ever considered the possibility it may be you who can't communicate.

PS 350 million people in India speak English most of them better than Brits let alone Americans.

I am an Apple specialist and beside the point...... I can communicate just fine buster! If I buy something here in the USA, I want USA to support it. If I wanted your opinion I will ask you for it!

[rishi]

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/4515/945/


By Sufia Tippu
Sunday, 04 June 2006

Apple tech support is closing down its Indian operations, which had barely begun to be established after its announcement of the new facility two months ago in April.

This is a premature death of Apple's embryonic plans of offering its own tech support in India. The centre had not gone live, not a single phone call was made, just about 30 support staff had been hired out of a planned 600-plus headcount for the whole year.

Apple had been offering and still continues to offer tech support from another third party BPO provider, TransWorks based here in Bangalore.

In April, when it had taken up 40,000 sq ft of commercial space in a leading software park and had announced plans to recruit 600 people by year-end, and later roped in a high profile former head of Dell International Services India, Mohan Kharbanda, to head the Indian operations, it was big news.

Then came the blog blitzkrieg. Apple's Mac and iPod users envisioned poor experiences as a result of the outsourcing of its support centre. They had taken to expressing through blogs, their strong disapproval and disillusionment with the company they felt they all owned because Mac and iPod users constitute a world of their own with a deeply embedded streak of loyalty.

Apple tried to allay fears of transfer of jobs from the US to India by clarifying that its US call centers would continue to grow and India was as good as any center to offer support services from.

Now, Apple is back again in the news. This move of shutting down the operations of its two-month old subsidiary, Apple Services India Pvt Ltd, seems to have come out of the blue.

While announcing its decision to lay off all its employees, senior Apple officials told them: "The company is re-evaluating its operations and has thought of pulling back its Indian operations." Apple is giving employees two months salary as a severance package.

According to Apple spokesperson Steve Dowling said: “We’ve re-evaluated our plans and decided to put our support centre growth in other countries."

But sources claim that this has nothing to do with the kind of quality of service that the India tech support would offer. “I think it has more to do with financial feasibility of the centre rather than the quality of service. You have to keep in mind that no work had started – basically it was just mid-level support staff that had been hired apart from Kharbanda who was expected to grow this the Dell way.”

Dell has about 15,000 people in India – who offer tech support through its captive centres as well as through other third party providers like Exl Services, Wipro BPO and Genpact.

“I think the company stock has also been on a southward route. Apple has realized that it makes business sense to work through a third party route rather make more capital investment here in India at this point of time,” sources said.

Dell was another company that was in the news three years ago for pulling out some of its work from its Bangalore tech support center but later on it was proved that support for only a couple of its products was moved back to the US. Just about 100 seats out of its 5000 seats at that time had moved back to the US. Much before that it was Lehman Brothers that had pulled out tech support from Wipro Technologies.

More recently, UK company Abbey moved a part of its operations back to home turf. However, according to sources, it was a very small part of their operations, although media reports had said that the entire operations had gone back home.

[Peterkro]

I am an Apple specialist and beside the point...... I can communicate just fine buster! If I buy something here in the USA, I want USA to support it. If I wanted your opinion I will ask you for it!
You have apparently not noticed this is a forum,Buster how very quaint.

[LordJohnWhorfin]

Racist or not, I am glad that Apple is pulling out of India. American jobs for American people.Did you say that when you bought your Toyota?

[Core Trio]

I think you'll find most of the money ends up with the shareholders of Apple and their partner companies shareholders,I find it difficult to understand the loyalty to the piece of dirt you live on,to be honest your being ripped off by capitalists wherever they live.


alright marx take it easy...

jeez some people around here are so bitter.

[rishi]

Racist or not, I am glad that Apple is pulling out of India. American jobs for American people.

Hi Folks,

I am from India and Mac user.I am really surprised by some of the responses here and would like to share my views in my broken,third world english.

If people don't understand the english spoken by Indians, they are justified in asking for better customer support staff (preferably from the western world) but saying that American jobs for American people is simply not fair, infact it makes you guys appear quite greedy and selfish.

India was a socialist country until 15 years when IMF and other Western nations convinced us to open our economy.Fall of communism and Russia was another factor in favour of a globalized economy.This is exactly what we accepted and the process of liberalization set in.

Now globalization does not mean an one way traffic where we only allow American (or Western) products into our country.It also means our products and services have easy access to the global markets. So there is simply no justification in saying, "American jobs for American people."

If you want to be "Be American,Buy American" then you should also "Sell American." Recall those oil companies from Middle east and all the hedge funds,mutual funds investing abroad,and all the Cokes,Pepsi's and Pizza Huts.

I know I am writing this on an American MacBook Pro and there is a Seagate External Drive (also American?) on my desk, so it might be hypocritical on my part to say this, but fact is many of us have accepted that this world is flat and we have to live in a global economy.However it is you who seems to be having a tough time accepting this, you want all the benefits of a global economy without accepting the drawbacks.

It is not that India has only benefited by accepting this new global economy. We have lost our manufacturing jobs since imports are just as cheap and we have a serious problem in agriculture. There are jobs in ITES (outsourcing) but they reach only a small section of population.Many of these kids who work in this centres get a monthly salary of around 20,000 Rs, which is around 400 dollars. There is no scope for promotion and many have not even graduated because they are getting jobs so easily.If tomorrow, these MNC's decide to move over to countries like Phillipines or Vietnam, then they will be simply left high and dry.

The main beneficiaries of these outsourcing phenomenon are American MNC's and this money is going back to American stockholders.

Regarding Apple, it seems they decided to call this off, because Apple has a very low penetration here in India and it would take lot of time and effort to train their support staff with the Macs.

As an Apple users in India, I have several complaints against this company (maybe this is OT) but have no choice because of the OS which I love. My MacBook Pro has cost me nearly 3000 dollars while it costs 2000 in US. Launch of new products is always two months late. If I go to my reseller tomorrow to buy a MacBook Pro, I will have to pay 3K for 1.83 GHz model, while my American counterpart will get a faster machine at lesser price. Dell sells their 1330 dollar (US Site) computer for 1400 dollars here in India so why is Apple overcharging when there is hardly any import tax by the Government ?

I have a MBP, an iBook and two ipods. Whenever I have contacted Customer support by phone or in person, I found them extremely courteous and helpful. Maybe you guys really missed it. :D

[LukeJ]

I just bought a refurbished MBP (my first Mac after a lifetime of DOS/Windows), and enrolled my AppleCare plan today. For some reason it wouldn't activate via the Web so I had to call in. I had everything ironed out in 5 minutes and was glad not to be transfered to a call center on the other side of the planet. It was very nice to be able to understand the rep with no problems, and I hope and pray it stays that way.

This is very good news indeed.

Luke

[Peterkro]

alright marx take it easy...

jeez some people around here are so bitter.

Don't know where you get the idea I'm a Marxist from nothing could be further from the truth although he has a worldwide(outside of the US) reputation as a Economist.I'm a little miffed that amongst the racist drivel on this thread anyone raising a view that doesn't follow the party line results in irrational attacks.I guess maybe the truth hurts.If anyone wants to continue in the Political forum I'll gladly oblige.

Actually that's a little unfair he is also seen as a great economist by many in the US just not the neocons who use him to frighten the horses.

[Sdashiki]

If I am in my country.

And I pick up my phone to call a business in my country company for service.

I expect to have the person on the other end of the line to speak my country's language. Its not racist, its not stupid, its common sense. And in a way, its customer service.

Broken language, or extremely heavy accented language, bad overseas connections and static, are NOT good customer service. And we all have had that kind of call from one company or another.

ps: mine was Sprint the other day...

[superbovine]

Then you have gotten lucky. Buy a Dell product sometime. Call them up. My company's helpdesk is based out of India. They aren't bad...even though they can't spell...deployed worth a dang. Dell's reps? I'd have an easier time understanding white noise. Heck I can understand a thick Scottish accent more easily then I can an Indian one. Of all the places on the world WHY did it have to be India that companies are outsourcing too? As best as I can tell Indians speak quicker which is part of the problem. But that coupled with the accent makes things doubly as difficult.

Either way, dell moved consumer support to minnesota.

[Peterkro]

If I am in my country.

And I pick up my phone to call a business in my country company for service.

I expect to have the person on the other end of the line to speak my country's language. Its not racist, its not stupid, its common sense. And in a way, its customer service.

Broken language, or extremely heavy accented language, bad overseas connections and static, are NOT good customer service. And we all have had that kind of call from one company or another.

ps: mine was Sprint the other day...

I see your point and if that's what you want fight for it don't just say it's wrong it's the way capitalism works they don't care about workers in the US or anywhere else, my experience with Apple in India has been excellent and I had a long and very interesting conversation with one operator about a certain philosopher we were both interested in.Part of the problem is many people want a middle class American to talk to and can't follow other varieties of English accent, because of US isolationism many are not used to others accents even though they speak English clearly and accurately,something a lot of Americans don't understand is that your accent is as hard for us as ours maybe to you, we live with it and don't complain.(well only to take the piss) also Silicon valley has many engineers from India because they're good and visa restrictions are no problem but try that if your a skilled support worker no way we want you in your country so we can pay you peanuts.See world free trade,freedom for capital but not workers.

[Makosuke]

Wow, this is getting far afield from the original topic, but what the heck.

I think you'll find most of the money ends up with the shareholders of Apple and their partner companies shareholders,I find it difficult to understand the loyalty to the piece of dirt you live on,to be honest your being ripped off by capitalists wherever they live.Say what? Have you noticed that Apple hasn't paid a dividend to shareholders (of which I am one, in fact) in years? I won't disagree with your for a second that you're getting ripped off by the rich no matter where you live, and I'd further agree that as with most modern execs Apple's higher-ups make more than they should (yes, Steve only gets $1, but even he has gotten some healthy compensation over the years even if he arguably deserves), but frankly I don't think Apple ranks all that high on the list of evil capitalist corporations.

And I don't have much loyalty to my piece of dirt, but it's simple math that when you "buy local", a percentage of that money filters back to you indirectly. It doesn't work well on the scale of a country the size of the US, but the basic principle is still decent. And again, I think Apple should have call centers for the UK located in the UK, Spain in Spain, etc. Yes, it costs more, but it's worth it.

If you're angry at capitalism, you should be particularly fond of companies that re-invest locally.

[rishi]

Thank you PeterKro

I once made an international call to Network Solutions and the customer service was not Indian.However even after spending money on this international call equal to money I paid for my domain,I could not get my matter resolved.

I had called Compaq once,here in India, and had a negative experience as well.

I think it is difficult to generalize.I suspect most people here calling to India, must be having reservations even before making the phone call.

My experience with Apple customer care has been extremely pleasant, though.

I think there must be other reasons for Apple cancelling this outsourcing plan. Like I mentioned in previous post, Macs are rarely used here in India,so Support staff would require extra training. BPO's here have an high attrition rate,nearly 40-50% per year, which again means more expenditure on training etc..


------------

Slightly OT, you have heard of outsourcing,how about reverse outsourcing -

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2006/05/30/india_tech_firms_seek_us_talent_in_offshoring_twist/

[Peterkro]

Wow, this is getting far afield from the original topic, but what the heck.

Say what? Have you noticed that Apple hasn't paid a dividend to shareholders (of which I am one, in fact) in years? I won't disagree with your for a second that you're getting ripped off by the rich no matter where you live, and I'd further agree that as with most modern execs Apple's higher-ups make more than they should (yes, Steve only gets $1, but even he has gotten some healthy compensation over the years even if he arguably deserves), but frankly I don't think Apple ranks all that high on the list of evil capitalist corporations.

And I don't have much loyalty to my piece of dirt, but it's simple math that when you "buy local", a percentage of that money filters back to you indirectly. It doesn't work well on the scale of a country the size of the US, but the basic principle is still decent. And again, I think Apple should have call centers for the UK located in the UK, Spain in Spain, etc. Yes, it costs more, but it's worth it.

If you're angry at capitalism, you should be particularly fond of companies that re-invest locally.

I wasn't picking on Apple in fact to me they're one of the best multinationals.I have to disagree with the trickle down theory though it would work if companies would spent locally but they won't,Auckland,Moscow,or child labour in Columbia cheaper that's were they'll go.Smaller co-operative enterprises with local labour which traded with others all over the world would be fine.I think if you've owned APPL stock for more than a short term it's worth more now than when you brought it (after allowing for inflation).I'm just disappointed that because a systems in place most people jump on(even the bread and butter capitalists)when it would be so much better to change the system.

[solvs]

Either way, dell moved consumer support to minnesota.
No one's going to make a joke about this? I can't think of any off hand. But I know someone has something.

(my Stepdad is from Minnesota, and the accent creeps in every once in awhile dontchaknow)

[ebelin]

Finally, people are coming to their senses. Apple, you get A+ on this one. The only question is why even bother to try some silly move like that.

[BWhaler]

Filipinos are better in communications skills. And alot of you guys would never even notice you are speaking with a filipino

Yes we would. Trust me.

[BWhaler]

Did you say that when you bought your Toyota?

My Toyota was made in South Carolina.

[BWhaler]

I stand by what I said. They were doing a good job.

They hadn't started working yet. Just training.

But we appreciate your enthusiasm.

[myke]

I'll note that while a lot of Northerners have a tough time with a strong Southern drawl, thanks to movies I don't think most Southerners have trouble understanding a Yankee. Sad, maybe, but a fact. I'm guessing (though I could be totally wrong) the same applies to a "proper" British accent in England versus folk with a strong Scottish or Welsh accent.



In fact in the UK it tends to be the English regional accents (Birmingham etc.) that are disliked, though middle class English southerners do have some odd prejudices against the Scots. By the way Scotland and Wales are NOT in England. They are in the UK. Only England is in England! Scotland has many call centres (cheap labour, again) and that's not generally something you hear people complain about. Which leads me to think that this thread is about protectionism not accent.

[oober_freak]

Apple should just establish their contact centers here in the philippines. Really. Filipinos are better in communications skills. And alot of you guys would never even notice you are speaking with a filipino because filipinos are good in mimicking accents. WE have neutral accents, and whenever i speak with an american and have him/her guess where im from, he/she will say he/she doesn't have any idea , and some say i maybe from canada.

I am now working in dell, and previously, i work in an outsourcing call center, and our account there was BESTBUY. Yes, BESTBUY, you've heard me right. All of the americans ive spoken with there thought i am from canada, or sometimes california. Bestbuy is instructing us to tell americans that we are from minneapolis, lolz, but the americans couldn't believe i am from minneapolis because i sound like an american from california, or maybe canada. Coz i can't do a minneapolis accent. I can only try to have a neutral one.

You can mimick a lot, eh? :p

It's not that Indians can't speak English fluently, the fact is that the people who work at these call centers are mostly under-educated. The people who can't get into decent colleges work at these places. So, how would you expect decent quality?

And these call centers employ only about three hundred thousand people and the contribution to the GDP is negligible. So, Indians aren't exactly dependent on call centers. It is the IT sector which employs a lot of people and it is this sector which contributes to the economy. Not some silly call centers employing 20 guys who haven't got anything else to do.

A country with the 10th largest economy in dollar terms and the 4rd largest economy in PPP terms doesn't need call centers to feed its ppl.

It is American companies who don't care a dime about their people back home. The only thing that they are concerned about is money.

RIAA and MPAA anyone?

[Abstract]

Hi Folks,

I am from India and Mac user.I am really surprised by some of the responses here and would like to share my views in my broken,third world english.

If people don't understand the english spoken by Indians, they are justified in asking for better customer support staff (preferably from the western world) but saying that American jobs for American people is simply not fair, infact it makes you guys appear quite greedy and selfish.

India was a socialist country until 15 years when IMF and other Western nations convinced us to open our economy.Fall of communism and Russia was another factor in favour of a globalized economy.This is exactly what we accepted and the process of liberalization set in.

Now globalization does not mean an one way traffic where we only allow American (or Western) products into our country.It also means our products and services have easy access to the global markets. So there is simply no justification in saying, "American jobs for American people."

If you want to be "Be American,Buy American" then you should also "Sell American." Recall those oil companies from Middle east and all the hedge funds,mutual funds investing abroad,and all the Cokes,Pepsi's and Pizza Huts.

I know I am writing this on an American MacBook Pro and there is a Seagate External Drive (also American?) on my desk, so it might be hypocritical on my part to say this, but fact is many of us have accepted that this world is flat and we have to live in a global economy.However it is you who seems to be having a tough time accepting this, you want all the benefits of a global economy without accepting the drawbacks.

It is not that India has only benefited by accepting this new global economy. We have lost our manufacturing jobs since imports are just as cheap and we have a serious problem in agriculture. There are jobs in ITES (outsourcing) but they reach only a small section of population.Many of these kids who work in this centres get a monthly salary of around 20,000 Rs, which is around 400 dollars. There is no scope for promotion and many have not even graduated because they are getting jobs so easily.If tomorrow, these MNC's decide to move over to countries like Phillipines or Vietnam, then they will be simply left high and dry.

The main beneficiaries of these outsourcing phenomenon are American MNC's and this money is going back to American stockholders.

Regarding Apple, it seems they decided to call this off, because Apple has a very low penetration here in India and it would take lot of time and effort to train their support staff with the Macs.

As an Apple users in India, I have several complaints against this company (maybe this is OT) but have no choice because of the OS which I love. My MacBook Pro has cost me nearly 3000 dollars while it costs 2000 in US. Launch of new products is always two months late. If I go to my reseller tomorrow to buy a MacBook Pro, I will have to pay 3K for 1.83 GHz model, while my American counterpart will get a faster machine at lesser price. Dell sells their 1330 dollar (US Site) computer for 1400 dollars here in India so why is Apple overcharging when there is hardly any import tax by the Government ?

I have a MBP, an iBook and two ipods. Whenever I have contacted Customer support by phone or in person, I found them extremely courteous and helpful. Maybe you guys really missed it. :D

You make a lot of good points. Lots of Americans are just a bit whiney about "their" jobs disappearing and moving to another country.

There are 2 car companies (I forget which ones specifically) who said that it was a mistake to open a car plant in [insert name of cities here], because they find that their Canadian counterparts are much more efficient, make better vehicles, and are generally cheaper because of these factors. One of these companies moved their plant from one of the east coast states, and donw to Canada. The other said that they couldn't do anything because they invested a lot in the plant they have now. I read this awhle ago (within the last 2 years, but I honestly couldn't even tell you if it was in 2005 or 2004 because I read a lot of news) but meh, it probably still applies today.

[Core Trio]

Don't know where you get the idea I'm a Marxist from nothing could be further from the truth although he has a worldwide(outside of the US) reputation as a Economist.I'm a little miffed that amongst the racist drivel on this thread anyone raising a view that doesn't follow the party line results in irrational attacks.I guess maybe the truth hurts.If anyone wants to continue in the Political forum I'll gladly oblige.

Actually that's a little unfair he is also seen as a great economist by many in the US just not the neocons who use him to frighten the horses.


Haha chill out, it was a joke. Im not attacking you, have your opinion of capitalism thats fine, but Id get used to it...its not going anywhere in your lifetime.

And btw I wasnt ripping on marx either, just trying to lighten the mood. I hate to see this forum, where our biggest battle is usually over integrated graphics on the MB and Mini, turn into a political battlefield, there are places for that, this isnt one of them.

[blitzkrieg79]

Did you say that when you bought your Toyota?
Funny thing you mentioned cars, as Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi manufacture most of the cars sold in US on US soil so at least they are made by American workers. And those Toyotas, Hondas, Mitsubishis are more American than the recent American cars who have plants in Canada and Mexico.

[blitzkrieg79]

You make a lot of good points. Lots of Americans are just a bit whiney about "their" jobs disappearing and moving to another country.

There are 2 car companies (I forget which ones specifically) who said that it was a mistake to open a car plant in [insert name of cities here], because they find that their Canadian counterparts are much more efficient, make better vehicles, and are generally cheaper because of these factors. One of these companies moved their plant from one of the east coast states, and donw to Canada. The other said that they couldn't do anything because they invested a lot in the plant they have now. I read this awhle ago (within the last 2 years, but I honestly couldn't even tell you if it was in 2005 or 2004 because I read a lot of news) but meh, it probably still applies today.

Well Canadians may be more efficient or whatever but once you start outsourcing all the jobs from USA then people living in USA won't have jobs meaning they won't have any money to buy cars from "American" companies and the US economy will fail.

I don't think this is selfish, this is protecting your own people. If India can't create their own job market, quite frankly, that is their own internal problem, but once US companies are starting to outsource what once were American jobs then that is my problem as I live in US. Simple as that.

You think that if a company will move to India (or wherever) to save labor costs and those savings will be evident on the final MSRP you pay on the product in an American store? The prices will remain the same, and the one who you should call greedy are the actual owners or CEOs of companies that instead of the usual 100 million per year will make 110 million. And the average class of American life is steadily decreasing.

America is a self sufficient country, they are able to take care of themselves, and I am against globalization as it is a negative thing for most Americans except maybe for the top 5% who hold 90% of US riches.

[blitzkrieg79]

Hi Folks,

I am from India and Mac user.I am really surprised by some of the responses here and would like to share my views in my broken,third world english.

If people don't understand the english spoken by Indians, they are justified in asking for better customer support staff (preferably from the western world) but saying that American jobs for American people is simply not fair, infact it makes you guys appear quite greedy and selfish.

India was a socialist country until 15 years when IMF and other Western nations convinced us to open our economy.Fall of communism and Russia was another factor in favour of a globalized economy.This is exactly what we accepted and the process of liberalization set in.

Now globalization does not mean an one way traffic where we only allow American (or Western) products into our country.It also means our products and services have easy access to the global markets. So there is simply no justification in saying, "American jobs for American people."

If you want to be "Be American,Buy American" then you should also "Sell American." Recall those oil companies from Middle east and all the hedge funds,mutual funds investing abroad,and all the Cokes,Pepsi's and Pizza Huts.

I know I am writing this on an American MacBook Pro and there is a Seagate External Drive (also American?) on my desk, so it might be hypocritical on my part to say this, but fact is many of us have accepted that this world is flat and we have to live in a global economy.However it is you who seems to be having a tough time accepting this, you want all the benefits of a global economy without accepting the drawbacks.

It is not that India has only benefited by accepting this new global economy. We have lost our manufacturing jobs since imports are just as cheap and we have a serious problem in agriculture. There are jobs in ITES (outsourcing) but they reach only a small section of population.Many of these kids who work in this centres get a monthly salary of around 20,000 Rs, which is around 400 dollars. There is no scope for promotion and many have not even graduated because they are getting jobs so easily.If tomorrow, these MNC's decide to move over to countries like Phillipines or Vietnam, then they will be simply left high and dry.

The main beneficiaries of these outsourcing phenomenon are American MNC's and this money is going back to American stockholders.

Regarding Apple, it seems they decided to call this off, because Apple has a very low penetration here in India and it would take lot of time and effort to train their support staff with the Macs.

As an Apple users in India, I have several complaints against this company (maybe this is OT) but have no choice because of the OS which I love. My MacBook Pro has cost me nearly 3000 dollars while it costs 2000 in US. Launch of new products is always two months late. If I go to my reseller tomorrow to buy a MacBook Pro, I will have to pay 3K for 1.83 GHz model, while my American counterpart will get a faster machine at lesser price. Dell sells their 1330 dollar (US Site) computer for 1400 dollars here in India so why is Apple overcharging when there is hardly any import tax by the Government ?

I have a MBP, an iBook and two ipods. Whenever I have contacted Customer support by phone or in person, I found them extremely courteous and helpful. Maybe you guys really missed it. :D

So in all that writing you are defending your OWN country which is exactly what I am doing in my posts.

[Teddy's]

1) We will see about that in the World Cup in Germany
2) It all reminds me Little Britain with Marjory and Meera

Meera: low in fat
Marjory: I am sorry say again?
Meera: low in fat
Marjory: I am sorry say again?
Meera: low in fat
Marjory: I am sorry say again?

and all the: something about sugar / Fish and chips... Something that we can't get here (Curry) / Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes ...I am sorry say again? :D

Oh well... let's not fight.

[ksz]

Funny thing you mentioned cars, as Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi manufacture most of the cars sold in US on US soil so at least they are made by American workers. And those Toyotas, Hondas, Mitsubishis are more American than the recent American cars who have plants in Canada and Mexico.
I'm not going to take sides in this argument, but I'll mention some statistics:

Toyota: In 1997 used 52% US- and Canadian-made parts. This has increased to 70+% in 2006.

General Motors: In 1997 used 90% US- and Canadian-made parts. This has declined to 80% in 2005.

Ford: 35% of the parts in a Mustang are foreign.

DaimlerChrysler: 75% US/Canadian parts now, down from 79% in 1997.

From http://www.sacbee.com/content/business/story/14261213p-15074841c.html
"People care about U.S. made until they see the price tag," she said. "We can order them, but when we quote the price to a customer they always change their mind and go with the flags we have in the store."

Marketing experts say that many consumers don't have a strong emotional connection to "Made in America," so it's not surprising that shoppers are defecting to cheaper foreign products. Most don't tie their spending to lost U.S. jobs or poor labor conditions in other countries -- they're just trying to find a good deal.

[50thVert]

Thank you, Come Again!

[Sdashiki]

they Took Our Jawbs!

[emw]

wasn't there a rumor a few months back of huge expansion of Apple's Indian Tech support with a new facility? :confused:
Yeah, it all started when Steve planned a vacation to Mumbai. The headlines read "Apple's Jobs Headed to India" and it went downhill from there.

[Gasu E.]

Don't any of you guys see the irony of Americans complaining about people in other countries being unable to speak English.:rolleyes:

The greater irony is that they still call the language English. :rolleyes:

[Gasu E.]

Yeah, it all started when Steve planned a vacation to Mumbai. The headlines read "Apple's Jobs Headed to India" and it went downhill from there.


That's very cute! :)

[Gasu E.]

Hi Folks,

I am from India and Mac user.I am really surprised by some of the responses here and would like to share my views in my broken,third world english.

If people don't understand the english spoken by Indians, they are justified in asking for better customer support staff (preferably from the western world) but saying that American jobs for American people is simply not fair, infact it makes you guys appear quite greedy and selfish.

...

I have a MBP, an iBook and two ipods. Whenever I have contacted Customer support by phone or in person, I found them extremely courteous and helpful. Maybe you guys really missed it. :D

Well said!

To those who complain about "their" jobs migrating offshore-- your country and/or region in the past most likely has been the beneficiary of "some else's" job migrating to your area due to economic reasons. This applies to the USA and the UK as well as everyone else.

[blitzkrieg79]

Well said!

To those who complain about "their" jobs migrating offshore-- your country and/or region in the past most likely has been the beneficiary of "some else's" job migrating to your area due to economic reasons. This applies to the USA and the UK as well as everyone else.

Ummmm, where are you from? And most important of all, what are you smoking? USA is a self sufficient country, they have all the natural resources and man power to survive on their own. And can you please give me an example of how USA or UK took away jobs from India or any other non-western countries? And due to what economic reasons (except greed)?

The modern world is based upon American/European/Japanese research and development, everyone else is just following it.

[emw]

Ummmm, where are you from? And most important of all, what are you smoking? USA is a self sufficient country, they have all the natural resources and man power to survive on their own. And can you please give me an example of how USA or UK took away jobs from India or any other non-western countries? And due to what economic reasons (except greed)?

The modern world is based upon American/European/Japanese research and development, everyone else is just following it.
Hmmm, I wonder why other countries think we're such jerks?

1) America is not a self-sufficient country. Unless, of course, we all swear off driving cars, since we don't have enough oil reserve to maintain that particular part of our economy, as one example.

2) Only by trading with other countries do we have the products and services we want. Sure, we could have only American-made stuff, but then it turns to crap because there's no incentive to make it better. Oh, and no diamond rings.

3) On a less macro level than between countries, states, counties, and cities within the U.S. are constantly working to lure businesses away from other locales so that they can reap the tax and employment base. It's not just India taking jobs from California, it's Chicago, New York, Seattle. And vice-versa.

4) As India's economy grows, they have more need for/ability to purchase products made outside of their borders, which helps us. Same goes for other countries.

5) Ingenuity is not an American patent. Although surely our lawyers will sue you if you try to use it.

[Atlasland]

Good to see that racial prejudice is alive & well on these boards. *depressed sigh*

[puts flame suit on & cries in despair in the corner]

[emw]

Good to see that racial prejudice is alive & well on these boards.I don't think it's so much prejudice and protectionism. People see a threat to their way of life, and are reacting to it.

[nigletsyz]

I love Indian food. :)

[clonenode]

Hmmm, I wonder about the other Apple customer service/tech support that they already have in India. I think Windows iPod support is still located there.

[blitzkrieg79]

Good to see that racial prejudice is alive & well on these boards. *depressed sigh*

[puts flame suit on & cries in despair in the corner]


It's not racial prejudice unless you want it to be. USA is a great nation, a superpower, BUT eversince 1950's the value of US dollar has been slowly decreasing. In the 1950s-1960s an average male with average paying job was able to support his wife and two kids without any problems. Today that doesn't work, you need two family members working and then sometimes this isn't even enough.

And now the companies came up with the bright idea of outsourcing, sure that the investors (investors don't make up the majority of US population) will get richer but I think they hold a certain responsibility to average working American citizen as the average American citizen fought for the country that it is today. America was in big trouble during Great Depression but because average Joe prevailed, now the rich can get richer but there should be certain obligation to support domestic jobs.

And sure we are self sufficient, we have our own oil in Alaska, in Gulf Of Mexico, in Pacific Ocean but the crappy environmentalists don't let the government drill, same goes for wood, we have plenty of forests but yet we mostly import wood from Russia and Canada. USA is protecting their natural resources but when will we start using them? Do we have to send thousands of 18 year olds to fight in the Middle East for oil when we have plenty in our own backyard?

[081440]

It's not racial prejudice unless you want it to be. USA is a great nation, a superpower, BUT eversince 1950's the value of US dollar has been slowly decreasing. In the 1950s-1960s an average male with average paying job was able to support his wife and two kids without any problems. Today that doesn't work, you need two family members working and then sometimes this isn't even enough.

And now the companies came up with the bright idea of outsourcing, sure that the investors (investors don't make up the majority of US population) will get richer but I think they hold a certain responsibility to average working American citizen as the average American citizen fought for the country that it is today. America was in big trouble during Great Depression but because average Joe prevailed, now the rich can get richer but there should be certain obligation to support domestic jobs.

And sure we are self sufficient, we have our own oil in Alaska, in Gulf Of Mexico, in Pacific Ocean but the crappy environmentalists don't let the government drill, same goes for wood, we have plenty of forests but yet we mostly import wood from Russia and Canada. USA is protecting their natural resources but when will we start using them? Do we have to send thousands of 18 year olds to fight in the Middle East for oil when we have plenty in our own backyard?


Well said! While we do have all the natural resources we still must conserve, but still need to use what we have, just in a responsible way.

And the war.... I find it truely amazing that the people that are complaining about how the war is an oil war and that's why we're there, only to turn around and complain about "high" gas prices. If we don't do something about oil, the US will suffer and today's prices will look cheap in the future. (Oil prices are inflated by not by big oil companies but by the Middle Eastern countries, by cutting down on the amount they pump, which in turn causes the price to rise, remember supply and demand)


So... Back to Mac / Apple stuff

[rishi]

Watch this funny movie on outsourcing,made by expat Indians in US.

http://www.callcentermovie.com/index.html

[nxent]

100% agree. That is exactly how I put it when I have one of my rants about FOREIGN (Not Indian) tech support.

Canadian/American, Most European, and British/Irish = I can understand fine.

When I have a problem that someone cannot help me with physically, and verbal communication is the only way of solving it - the last thing I need is a language barrier, or someone who cannot pronounce my name.

"Jishena Timas" (Joshua Thomas) :o

this is actually a reply to a number of the posts here.... (not trying to single you out...)
hmmm.... if it were a support center in india, maybe it's for supporting indian customers. didn't apple use Ghandi as a part of their advertising campaign in the late 90's? think different. we english speakers here in the US and the rest of the western world aren't the only mac users. if apple wants to expand globally they need to have global support. last i heard apple was doing pretty pisspoor in terms of global market share (2.x%?). and since when did Dell become an 'unsuccessful' business model? last i heard they were beating the piss out of their pc counterparts. they may put sh** in a box, but they sure as hell know how to sell it. and language barriers? come on. english is such a global language now, and 'josh' is not that hard of a name to pronouce compared to other names out there. we butcher foreign names all the time. the whole point of having international support is when your hardware goes ******* at 3 in the morning, you have someone on the other end to bitch to.

another reason is when US foreign policy goes *******, and international countries want to boycott US products, the company can easily say 'but no! our product is actually global!'

[nxent]

It's not racial prejudice unless you want it to be. USA is a great nation, a superpower, BUT eversince 1950's the value of US dollar has been slowly decreasing. In the 1950s-1960s an average male with average paying job was able to support his wife and two kids without any problems. Today that doesn't work, you need two family members working and then sometimes this isn't even enough.

And now the companies came up with the bright idea of outsourcing, sure that the investors (investors don't make up the majority of US population) will get richer but I think they hold a certain responsibility to average working American citizen as the average American citizen fought for the country that it is today. America was in big trouble during Great Depression but because average Joe prevailed, now the rich can get richer but there should be certain obligation to support domestic jobs.

And sure we are self sufficient, we have our own oil in Alaska, in Gulf Of Mexico, in Pacific Ocean but the crappy environmentalists don't let the government drill, same goes for wood, we have plenty of forests but yet we mostly import wood from Russia and Canada. USA is protecting their natural resources but when will we start using them? Do we have to send thousands of 18 year olds to fight in the Middle East for oil when we have plenty in our own backyard?

the main reason the US is a super power is europe was so ravaged after WWII. it's only been the past 10 years or so that that's really began to change with the european union, etc etc. while it can be argued that the US is self-sufficient, i think it'd be easier to argue the universe is flat. it certainly makes it a lot harder when 9/10 items, at least, in your household were made in a foreign country. serious, look at your keyboard, monitor, chair, light, everything. even those pants you're wearing. the us is not as self sufficent as other countries, like brazil. ahh, brazil. they have their own aircraft maker, own car maker. textile induestries. and as for oil? screw oil. their cars run on suger... SUGAR!!!!

[solvs]

they Took Our Jawbs!
Sorry, I already made that joke. ;)

[rishi]

Article which appeared in today's edition of Times of India (Indiatimes.com)

URL - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1625129.cms


CHIDANAND RAJGHATTA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, JUNE 07, 2006 12:00:00 AM]


WASHINGTON: India might still be the outsourcing apple in the eye of American businesses, but in Steve Jobs’ mind, the country looks too pricey these days.

US companies are even now offshoring work to India at the rate of knots, but the industry buzz is that the legendary founder of Apple pulled out of the world’s Back Office Central last week after facing rising costs and difficulties in hiring and retaining talent.

Considering Jobs’ soft corner for India — he backpacked across the country in his youth — the move could take some shine off the outsourcing story. The former seeker of spiritual gyan might have romanced India in the 1970s, but he is also known as a hard-headed businessman.

An Apple spokesman said it had reevaluated its plans and decided to focus on support centre activities in other countries. Numbers trumped sentiment in Apple’s decision to pull the plug on its 30-strong Bangalore centre, according to the the US business media.

‘‘India isn’t as inexpensive as it used to be,’’ an unnamed insider was quoted telling BusinessWeek magazine. ‘‘The turnover is high, and the competition for good people is strong.’’ The company feels it ‘‘can do it more efficiently elsewhere.’’ According to industry mavens, entry-level wages have climbed by as much as 13% annually from 2000 to 2004, while salaries for mid-level managers have gone up 30% annually during the same period to a median of $31,131.

Apple’s decision came even as the US behemoth IBM announced it would triple its investments to $ 6 billion over the next three years. IBM, which already employs some 42,000 people in India and is the country’s largest multinational employers, plans to hire thousands more, its CEO Sam Palmisano said during an analysts conference in Bangalore, the first time Big Blue has held such a meet outside the United States.

Apple’s exit stood in sharp contrast to the rah rah from IBM, and indeed, other US tech companies.

Companies such as GE, IBM, Microsoft, and Google which swept into India earlier seem to have scooped up low hanging fruit. Apple began its India operations in only January this year with a 30-person office which was expected to grow to 3000 in the next couple of years.

Another reason for Apple’s pull-out was said to be its tie-up with HCL Infosystems to provide distribution and after-service care for Apple’s monster hit iPod. Besides, Apple also offers some tech support from another Indian third party BPO provider, TransWorks.

Still, the thud of Apple falling in Bangalore — first reported in The Times of India — echoed across American techdom, relayed jubilantly by geeks who have been gnashing their teeth at the flight of jobs.

On message boards, Apple aficionados made fun of Indian tech support’s use of British expressions such as needful and hence.

‘‘India support only alienates customers, and generates additional support calls when the script readers fail to help users,’’ wrote one. ‘‘My guess is the support would be no better and possibly worse if it was moved back. The training curve would need to start over again... The longer support stays in India, the better it gets,’’ countered another. We may never know.

Jobs himself was expected to visit India in March, although an interview request from ToI had remained unanswered for several weeks, giving some inkling of a glitch in the works.

[John Jacob]

My Toyota was made in South Carolina.
So Japanese jobs going to the USA are OK, but American jobs going to India are not? I guess that figures. :rolleyes:

[BWhaler]

So Japanese jobs going to the USA are OK, but American jobs going to India are not? I guess that figures. :rolleyes:

Maybe you can spot the difference in the situation. Think hard.

Because of the South Carolina Toyota factory:

# of Japanese Factories Closed: 0
# of Japanese Jobs Lost: 0
# of Japanese Who Had to Train Their Replacement & Then Got Fired: 0

But thanks for playing. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[blitzkrieg79]

the main reason the US is a super power is europe was so ravaged after WWII. it's only been the past 10 years or so that that's really began to change with the european union, etc etc. while it can be argued that the US is self-sufficient, i think it'd be easier to argue the universe is flat. it certainly makes it a lot harder when 9/10 items, at least, in your household were made in a foreign country. serious, look at your keyboard, monitor, chair, light, everything. even those pants you're wearing. the us is not as self sufficent as other countries, like brazil. ahh, brazil. they have their own aircraft maker, own car maker. textile induestries. and as for oil? screw oil. their cars run on suger... SUGAR!!!!

While I agree that USA got it's "superpower" status thanks to great destruction to Europe during WWII (USA wasn't really directly affected by WWII, meaning no cities were destroyed on US soil except Pearl Harbor but that obviously was a military object), US wasn't the one that started it all. Germany was, USA saw this as an opportunity and the great American MANUFACTURING capacity helped to win the war against Germans.

While I realize that most things in my household have stickers Made in China or other low wage countries, it's not like US doesn't have the self-capacity/materials to produce and manufacture those products you mentioned on US soil. USA used to be a great manufacturing nation (thats when the value of dollar was at it's highest) but now it's mostly a service based economy.

In mass quantity produced goods, whether you pay someone $15 per hour or 50 cents doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the final cost of the good (we are talking here about maybe a 5 cent difference on 1000 items made per hour) considering that you have to also add shipping and handling costs in order to import those outsourced goods back to USA from lets say China. So it's all just a greed of owners.

[DavidCL23]

Thank G-d! :)

[blitzkrieg79]

So Japanese jobs going to the USA are OK, but American jobs going to India are not? I guess that figures. :rolleyes:

Well there is a BIG difference between outsourcing jobs (where you close down factories in one country and open up new factories in another country) and expansion (where you leave all your factories the way they are and create new ones whether in your homeland or abroad).

When Mitsubishi, Honda, Toyota opened up factories in US, none of the mentioned manufacturers closed down any of their plants in Japan.

But, for example, call centers here in USA outsource jobs to let's say India, that means that Americans are getting laid off and there is another side effect to it, the average salary of call center employee in US goes down as companies take advantage of the high unemployment and basically low-ball people while the average cost of living in USA constantly is increasing.

[mtoddy]

Thank G-d! :)

thank god... and shiva, vishnu, and ganesh

[Peterkro]

thank god... and shiva, vishnu, and ganesh

..and athiests

[Nikkobengco]

You can mimick a lot, eh? :p

It's not that Indians can't speak English fluently, the fact is that the people who work at these call centers are mostly under-educated. The people who can't get into decent colleges work at these places. So, how would you expect decent quality?

And these call centers employ only about three hundred thousand people and the contribution to the GDP is negligible. So, Indians aren't exactly dependent on call centers. It is the IT sector which employs a lot of people and it is this sector which contributes to the economy. Not some silly call centers employing 20 guys who haven't got anything else to do.

A country with the 10th largest economy in dollar terms and the 4rd largest economy in PPP terms doesn't need call centers to feed its ppl.

It is American companies who don't care a dime about their people back home. The only thing that they are concerned about is money.

RIAA and MPAA anyone?





Hey, if you are a graduate of a B.S. degree or a PHD , that doesn't mean you are good or great in english, or that doesn't mean you can get decent english quality from those who graduated! And if you are undergrad, that doesn't mean you are not competent enough! There are alot of undergrads who can speak good english, well , that's the case here in the Philippines, i don't know about india, but then, it wouldn't matter, it's the same banana, undergrads in india don't mean they are not as competent as those who have a BS Degree. I even speak better english than my college professor, who graduated with a BS degree.I just need to remind you, that the richest people in the world, or those people who became succesful are all undergrad! Most of them are college drop outs! Just like Bill Gates, did he graduate? NO.

[MacQuest]

USA is a self sufficient country, they have all the natural resources and man power to survive on their own.

One word: Oil.

Wait, one more: Iraq

Not trying to turn this into a political thread, but WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU SMOKING?!!!

"Just say no", for the love of gawd.

[Peterkro]

Hey, if you are a graduate of a B.S. degree or a PHD , that doesn't mean you are good or great in english, or that doesn't mean you can get decent english quality from those who graduated! And if you are undergrad, that doesn't mean you are not competent enough! There are alot of undergrads who can speak good english, well , that's the case here in the Philippines, i don't know about india, but then, it wouldn't matter, it's the same banana, undergrads in india don't mean they are not as competent as those who have a BS Degree. I even speak better english than my college professor, who graduated with a BS degree.I just need to remind you, that the richest people in the world, or those people who became succesful are all undergrad! Most of them are college drop outs! Just like Bill Gates, did he graduate? NO.

or Steve Jobs he figured out what a load of ****ery formal education was very early on.

[BWhaler]

One word: Oil.

Wait, one more: Iraq

Not trying to turn this into a political thread, but WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU SMOKING?!!!

"Just say no", for the love of gawd.

When you're right MacQuest, you're right.

Oil is the drug America is addicted to. From Main Street to Wall Street.

[slu]

I have only made it through 3 pages of this thread, but the not so thinly veiled bigotry in this thread is a little alarming. I have had nothing but good service from foreign customer support. I get worse customer support, in person, from Americans at 7-11.

And having people in other countries with a decent wage is benefical to America in the long run. These people can now afford, and want, Levi's, Coca-Cola, Hollywood movies, etc.

I thought the Mac crowd was a bit more "worldly". Comments like, "THANK GAWD!!1!111one!!! They don't even speak english over their." are disturbing to me.

[blitzkrieg79]

One word: Oil.

Wait, one more: Iraq

Not trying to turn this into a political thread, but WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU SMOKING?!!!

"Just say no", for the love of gawd.

Ummmm, please at least try to read my posts, not just skimp through if that is not too difficult for you. I am aware that USA is in Iraq because of oil ("freedom") but if you would actually ready my posts you would notice that I mentioned oil in Alaska, Pacific Ocean, Gulf of Mexico, heck even some of the southern states such as Texas, USA definately has it's own oil but the environmentalists (but somehow I don't think they are the only obsticle) won't allow to drill. US should invest more money in drilling on it's own soil. Would you send your kid to Iraq to fight for oil when you know you have it in your own backyard?

And what are you going to say that we import over 80% of wood that we use from other countries such as Canada and Russia? We also don't have it?
In 50 years when there will be other forms of energy oil won't be needed anyway, heck, there are already alternate forms of energy available but the big oil lobby is not allowing it.

[blitzkrieg79]

I have only made it through 3 pages of this thread, but the not so thinly veiled bigotry in this thread is a little alarming. I have had nothing but good service from foreign customer support. I get worse customer support, in person, from Americans at 7-11.

And having people in other countries with a decent wage is benefical to America in the long run. These people can now afford, and want, Levi's, Coca-Cola, Hollywood movies, etc.

I thought the Mac crowd was a bit more "worldly". Comments like, "THANK GAWD!!1!111one!!! They don't even speak english over their." are disturbing to me.

Yeah, paying 50 cents per hour and considering that the same pair of Levis jeans is actually 30-40% cheaper in USA than lets say China they definately will be able to afford our stuff and help our economy. Corporations go there because of cheap labor, they don't care about the actual people. I am not against American companies opening up factories or businesses around the world as in EXPANSION. I am against OUTSOURCING (as in taking away American jobs and giving the same jobs to low wage countries).

If Apple wants to have a call center in India that is fine, but that call center should only be for Apple customers in India. Same goes for every other country. Otherwise in 50 years, in USA, the population that we will have will be 10% investors and 90% that is making $1 per hour while the cost of living is skyrocketing.

[Mord]

if anyone makes another post beginning with "i'm not racist but" i'll go insane, would you give a **** if the call center was in canada? be honest about this.

what it comes down to is most americans prejudice, the quality in tech support i have received has been pretty equal between irish call centers (apple uk) indian call centers (microsoft) and others, it does irk me when they pretend to be in london when they obviously are not but i don't mind if they get my problems sorted out (admittedly i'm biased as any tech call i make is always for a specific thing like i need my ibooks logic board replaced, or my cd key is not working with activation please issue me another (which they do no questions asked).

People are just as stupid (yes i'm jaded, but at least i'm jaded equally with every race) all over the world and the more people that have jobs in places like india the better for them it all depends on the level of training they receive.

[blitzkrieg79]

if anyone makes another post beginning with "i'm not racist but", would you give a **** if the call center was in canada? be honest about this.

what it comes down to is most americans prejudice, the quality in tech support i have received has been pretty equal between irish call centers (apple uk) indian call centers (microsoft) and others, it does irk me when they pretend to be in london when they obviously are not but i don't mind if they get my problems sorted out (admittedly i'm biased as any tech call i make is always for a specific thing like i need my ibooks logic board replaced, or my cd key is not working with activation please issue me another (which they do no questions asked).

People are just as stupid (yes i'm jaded, but at least i'm jaded equally with every race) all over the world and the more people that have jobs in places like india the better for them it all depends on the level of training they receive.

If the call center in Canada would be for Canadian customers then more power to Apple, if the call center in Canada would cost American jobs on US soil then yeah I would also be against it. Besides Canada is a bad example as it is a "51st US State" well maybe "52nd" as there is also Puerto Rico.

But in all reality if people don't see this, there is a BIG difference between OUTSOURCING and EXPANSION. I wouldn't mind to have lets say some Indian or Chineese food franchises a la McDonalds in USA but that is caused by expansion.

[Mord]

i just dont get this "ours ours ours" attitude, it's national selfishness and it's an attitude that keeps the 3rd world 3rd.

[blitzkrieg79]

i just dont get this "ours ours ours" attitude, it's national selfishness and it's an attitude that keeps the 3rd world 3rd.

Because first you have to take care of your own and then think about everyone else, otherwise you will become a 3rd world country, sad but true. America is not what it used to be anymore, it's getting worse and worse for the average citizen. We still don't have a national healthcare plan/system, there is no government assistance to help young couples buy a house (especially with real-estate prices skyrocketing since 2001), yet we are able to afford 2 simultaneous wars, just shows how US government cares for it's own.

Besides 3rd World Countries need to help themselves first, constant wars (unable to agree on anything) and overpopulation don't help them with anything. But I guess it's a difference in culture.

[Mord]

and whose fault is that.

yes poor america, your so needy :rolleyes: (you are but the rest of the world is far worse off) , if i were given the option of 10 british dieing of starvation or 11 ethiopians i'd choose the british because, thats just me, it's not due to lack of national identity, i hate the french as much as any englishman, and i'd go to war to defend against a hostile nation but what i wont stand for is double standards for nationals and non nationals on a "them and us" fashion, thats just me.

[blitzkrieg79]

and whose fault is that.

yes poor america, your so needy :rolleyes: (you are but the rest of the world is far worse off) , if i were given the option of 10 british dieing of starvation or 11 ethiopians i'd choose the british because, thats just me, it's not due to lack of national identity, i hate the french as much as any englishman, and i'd go to war to defend against a hostile nation but what i wont stand for is double standards for nationals and non nationals on a "them and us" fashion, thats just me.

You have your point of view and I have mine, but we won't start a war because we know better, something that most 3rd World Countries wouldn't do. Anyway, whose fault is that? Peoples all over the world, in perfect world there would be only one country where everyone would get the same privilages, rights, and pay. But we don't live as a one country, and I doubt it will ever happen, too much of a cultural divide.

So thats why every country in existance can't really rely on outside help, if they can't survive on their own let them think a bit and join with another country (something Europe has figured out with European Union, most European countries as indivuduals are small and don't mean a whole lot in a political scene, but when you say European Union then you think of over 500 million people as one, makes a big difference).

I come from an Eastern European country and believe me, if people want a change and are willing to fight for it (it may take a LOT of time and lives) but you can do it on your own without too much of outside interference, just takes some unity, organization, and thinking.

[Core Trio]

You have your point of view and I have mine, but we won't start a war because we know better, something that most 3rd World Countries wouldn't do. Anyway, whose fault is that? Peoples all over the world, in perfect world there would be only one country where everyone would get the same privilages, rights, and pay. But we don't live as a one country, and I doubt it will ever happen, too much of a cultural divide.

So thats why every country in existance can't really rely on outside help, if they can't survive on their own let them think a bit and join with another country (something Europe has figured out with European Union, most European countries as indivuduals are small and don't mean a whole lot in a political scene, but when you say European Union then you think of over 500 million people as one, makes a big difference).

I come from an Eastern European country and believe me, if people want a change and are willing to fight for it (it may take a LOT of time and lives) but you can do it on your own without too much of outside interference, just takes some unity, organization, and thinking.


You are aware the EU is more a trade agreement to get its members resources in bulk at a much cheaper price than it is a continental government correct?

EDIT: what the hell am I doing...I dont want to talk about this, im inbetween semesters right now. The purpose of the EU should be the last thing I think about when I come to a Mac forum

[howesey]

My latest encounter with Indian tech support was with a question on TCP/IP ports.

The answer was:

"As in a port that a ship leaves a port".


Ugh!! This was British Telecom as well My ISP!


Oh, and Dell are moving more to India. They were on TV today. There main reason was; "better customer satisfaction".

[Mord]

the guy i called from bulldog dident know what a port was, and he was a scouser.

[solvs]

the guy i called from bulldog didn't know what a port was, and he was a scouser.
Cultural differences. Got love 'em. You're speaking English and I only understood about half of what you said. I know what a port is, but what's a scouser? And bulldog? Quoi? I'm guessing you aren't talking about the 4 legged kind. :p

Anyway, as for the other stuff, it's kinda like when you say "no offense, but..." and then offend someone.

[chasemac]

Why would Apple need such expanded support anyway? I have only called Apple once to find out when my system would arrive! Anyway, if I can't see you, I don't need you.:)

[karichelle]

I am extremely relieved to see this, as I just had a particularly bad first experience with Apple's support center in India.

When my refurb iMac G5 arrived, it was loaded with Panther and iLife '04 instead of the Tiger and '05 it was supposed to have come with...someone had simply included old system discs with it. So I figure it's going to be super easy to just get them to send me some new system discs...I'll call and tell them what's going on and in a few days I'll have my discs...wrong.

When I called, I was initially transferred to the Indian call center and the person who answered the phone spoke fairly good English, and he made sure to speak slowly so he could be understood. If I had to talk to a non-native English speaker, that was at least the best situation to have. However, apparently there was a sizable communication barrier that remained unseen until he attempted to "solve" my problem.

He put me on hold for a few minutes while he talked to someone in "dispatch," then he came back and transferred me to that person, and the first thing that person said to me was, "Kari, if I can just get your e-mail address I can set you up with FedEx to return your computer and we'll send you another one overnight." I was surprised at this to say the least...and all I could say was, "What? Why do I need a new computer? All I need is discs." The sales/dispatch person said that he was only doing what tech support had recommended and all he could do was transfer me back to tech support. I asked if there was someone above him I could talk to about the issue and he said no, so I asked him to transfer me back to tech support.

Well, this time I got someone in Columbus who wasn't the least bit surprised that I had had problems with the Indian call center; apparently they see this all the time. She had no idea why he had recommended replacement of my entire computer when all I needed was two system discs. So she talked to someone in sales who verified what discs it should have come with, and she sent me out new system restore discs and a new iLife disc, which should be arriving sometime next week.

I'm not sure why on earth Apple was ready and willing to pay $200+ to overnight two 30-pound computer boxes in order to get me updated software. It would have been cheaper for them to send me retail copies of iLife and Tiger.

I had thought the person in India had understood my problem, but apparently he didn't, or else he didn't know how to properly solve it. Either way, that's a problem, if they're recommending replacing computers for software issues.

[oober_freak]

Hey, if you are a graduate of a B.S. degree or a PHD , that doesn't mean you are good or great in english, or that doesn't mean you can get decent english quality from those who graduated! And if you are undergrad, that doesn't mean you are not competent enough! There are alot of undergrads who can speak good english, well , that's the case here in the Philippines, i don't know about india, but then, it wouldn't matter, it's the same banana, undergrads in india don't mean they are not as competent as those who have a BS Degree. I even speak better english than my college professor, who graduated with a BS degree.I just need to remind you, that the richest people in the world, or those people who became succesful are all undergrad! Most of them are college drop outs! Just like Bill Gates, did he graduate? NO.

I was talking about people who do not go to good colleges. The ones who do get into decent colleges don't give a damn about call centers anyways.

Being successful needs vision more than education. Education is important but unless you have vision, you won't be successful. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates did not have anything to lose. On the other hand, a guy with a professional degree and a good job wouldn't want to take the risk of losing his job, his home etc.

But then, as you said, Philippines is better at everything.. wait.. you don't have a population of a billion, do you? So we're better at *something*. :D

I wouldn't bother talking about the economy here :)

[buddhahacker]

I have had numerous interaction with support centers in India and have been disappointed each time. The only times support corrected my problems is when they escalate back to the US. In fact, my company has had so many problems with Dell and their support early on tha they threatened to pull a multi-million dollar purchase. Apparently, other companies expressed the same issue so Dell dumped India for corporate support a long time ago. If only they would express the same considiration to their domestic retail customers. As a customer, I don't want free support if I have to spend 2 hours trying to explain my problem to someone who can't understand me and then has little technical support to resolve it.

Another observation is that the folks in India can't think outside the box. On one occassion last year call called a company who had support split between India and the UK. Unfortunately, I rolled snake eyes and got the Indian support team. I explained my problem and sent them my documentation and the India support team didn't have a clue what to do. They simply went through their script and database. When they got to the end of the script they tried to start all over again. Even when I escalated to their higher level support they couldn't resolve the issue. After 3 hours I gave up. I then called back later that same day and fortunately got the UK support team. The first level was going to go through the same script but saw that it was already been done by the idiots in India. He immediately escalated the call to a higher support and STAYED ON THE LINE to ensure the problem was resolved. He took OWNERSHIP of the problem. Nobody on the support team in India took the initiative to do this. Finally, after an hour and after trying several hunches by the two support guys the problem was resolved.

Upon reflection I found that I spent 4 hours on support calls with 3 hours being wasted with the support team from India and 1 hour with the UK team who fixed the problem. I wonder if the company actually saves any money using the cheaper support teams from India?

[rishi]

ooberfreak,

Nice to see a mac user from Mumbai, check out this group that we are trying to set up for Indian Macintosh users -

http://groups.google.com/group/macindia

[needthephone]

Here in Australia it seems most companies have call centres in India. As most people have commented I too am not rascist (I work with and have good freinds who are indian, chinese, russian, peruvian, scottish! even in origin) but the frustration is that I can't really understand their english-its a combination of accent and simple knowledge of the language. Also you don't get support, they simply click a link and then read verbatim what's written on the screen in front of them. If that doesn't work they try to find another page and then read that off word for word too. Whats the point in this, its not customer support, it's just masquerading as customer support. I simply don't bother if I can help it but if is about my telephone bill what choice do I have?

This is the most cynical cost cutting excercise which is causing a lot of resentment towards big companies.

I was so frustrated with my service and so called customer support from Dell that it was a big factor in why I switched to an imac. Gone are the days when they have some one who actually helps. They read things off a screen, asked me to install drivers, asked me to do something else which didn't work, gave me a service number to qoute in the future, asked me to download and install more drivers, asked for my service number , read another help screen off word for word-and so it went on for weeks without me getting anywhere. Only after weeks of arguing and threatening legal action did they finally admit to a fault and then a couple of boxes turned up with some parts. I phoned them back and was told despite my protestaions that I didn't know what I was doing and worrying static would kill the chips, to install the parts myself. I refused to do this and after more quoting of service numbers did they agree to send someone to replace the graphics card and hard drive for me. This was for a brand new machine which didn't work out of the box.

I hope apple prooves better in this respect.

[mac4drew]

I have only made it through 3 pages of this thread, but the not so thinly veiled bigotry in this thread is a little alarming. I have had nothing but good service from foreign customer support. I get worse customer support, in person, from Americans at 7-11.

And having people in other countries with a decent wage is benefical to America in the long run. These people can now afford, and want, Levi's, Coca-Cola, Hollywood movies, etc.

I thought the Mac crowd was a bit more "worldly". Comments like, "THANK GAWD!!1!111one!!! They don't even speak english over their." are disturbing to me.

I think it's ridiculous to call any of what was posted here bigotry. Everyone who's said anything has gone to great lengths to demonstrate otherwise.

I personally have had nothing but good service every time I set foot in a 7-11, and a multitude of bad service when calling up customer support, accent or not. All most people in this thread have argued is that a thick accent gets in the way of communication.

Any decision to outsource customer service to another country means bad service from underpaid employees is transformed into bad service from underpaid employees with an accent that makes them hard to understand.

The accent just happens to be the straw breaking the camel's back. That's all it is!

Characterizing this entire thread as "not so thinly veiled bigotry" is irrational and unfair. And just because people don't type out something with the best of grammar or spelling doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have a valid point, especially when they're in agreement with many who do.

[aricher]

Some of the worst tech support I've ever had (as far as language barrier) was with someone with a really thick southern US (Texas?) accent.

I totally agree with this. I've never had as much of a problem with India-based tech support as I have had dealing with southern drawl support. At least in India they have diction coaches for their workers. I once spent nearly 2 hours the phone with an SBC tech that sounded like Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel. It could have easily been a 30 minute conversation had the language barrier not been an issue. I guess tech support runs differently south of the Manson-Nixon, er, Mason-Dixon line.

[Joele25]

I am new to the Mac family and one of the selling points was Apple Tech Support if needed. (Thats why I canned Dell) Apple is English speaking, easy to understand and fast to get your problem resolved. When I heard of them possibly creating a 3000+ person support center in India, I was sick. I work for a global company and I have to deal with Indian support. I cannot stand it any longer. I constantly have to ask for them to repeat what they say over and over again. I will not buy from a company that sends its support to a country where the accents are so heavy and english is a second, thrid or even fourth language for them. Nothing against the people of India, they are really nice people. But usually the one you get is looking at a spreadsheet or database and if they cannot find your issue listed in them, they waste your time! THAT is what I cannot stand, therefore I will not buy any products from a company that has "offshore" support. England, Canada, Ireland, thats fine... they speak english.

[kresh]

Are these support centers in India, that everyone is doing these days, use VOIP to conduct business?

I was just curious.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Absolutely good news.

If Apple (or Microsoft, or Dell, or anyone else) want to open a support center in India for the purpose of supporting customers in India and nearby countries, then that's great. But when I call an American company for tech support from here in the US, I expect to talk to someone in the US (or Canada at the very least). This isn't racism or anything; I'd have just as big an issue with it if they hired Highland Scotsmen to man the support lines. I can't understand people with strong non-American accents, and when I am calling in for tech support, the last thing I need is any sort of communication barrier between myself and the support tech.

I agree about being able to understand what is said.

I also have an issue with the "false face" that some companies go lengths to have - giving "American/English" names to the reps, giving them daily briefings and access to real time news and weather for "your" local - just to make you think that you are talking to and supporting a US worker.

For me it is not about racism. It is about keeping jobs here in the US. I am tired of tech support jobs, airline reservation jobs, most any job that can be done via a computer screen and a telephone line being sent overseas. I just want the jobs to be kept here in the US for US support.

My sister's xrays and CAT scan were not read by doctors in her hospital; but by doctors half way across the globe! Guess what, she was charged the same as if a doctor at the hospital had done the reading!

So reaped the savings? Not her insurance. But the hospital! That is just wrong IMO.

[dummptyhummpty]

100% agree. That is exactly how I put it when I have one of my rants about FOREIGN (Not Indian) tech support.

Canadian/American, Most European, and British/Irish = I can understand fine.

When I have a problem that someone cannot help me with physically, and verbal communication is the only way of solving it - the last thing I need is a language barrier, or someone who cannot pronounce my name.

"Jishena Timas" (Joshua Thomas) :o

You and I have basically the same name.... My name is Joshua Thomas Bernstein...that's crazy! I do know like 2 Josh Bernsteins though and there is that guy on the History channel with my name too.

[ntg]

..from the BBC web-site:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5083838.stm

Powergen shuts India call centres

Powergen says overseas call centres still have a place - just not for them.
Energy firm Powergen is to close its Indian call centres, with staff in the UK dealing with customers instead.

Maybe the out-sourcing bubble is about to burst anyway?

Nig.;)

[markiv810]

I agree about being able to understand what is said.

I also have an issue with the "false face" that some companies go lengths to have - giving "American/English" names to the reps, giving them daily briefings and access to real time news and weather for "your" local - just to make you think that you are talking to and supporting a US worker.

For me it is not about racism. It is about keeping jobs here in the US. I am tired of tech support jobs, airline reservation jobs, most any job that can be done via a computer screen and a telephone line being sent overseas. I just want the jobs to be kept here in the US for US support.

My sister's xrays and CAT scan were not read by doctors in her hospital; but by doctors half way across the globe! Guess what, she was charged the same as if a doctor at the hospital had done the reading!

So reaped the savings? Not her insurance. But the hospital! That is just wrong IMO.

Globalization is a good thing but paying one tenth the amount to Indian/any third world country employee and charging the first world rates to me is cheating. If American/ European companies want to outsource they should pay workers the same amount. It's not just about people in third world making more money than they used or they don't deserve equal benefits and salary that the american workers get, it's also about being fair to the american worker who helped build the company, so that it could outsource their jobs to other cheaper alternatives. This is what I call slave labor.

Edit: forgot to add pay the workers

[blitzkrieg79]

Globalization is a good thing but paying one tenth the amount to Indian/any third world country employee and charging the first world rates to me is cheating. If American/ European companies want to outsource they should the same amount. It's not just about people in third world making more money than they used or they don't deserve equal benefits and salary that the american workers get, it's also about being fair to the american worker who helped build the company, so that it could outsource their jobs to other cheaper alternatives. This is what I call slave labor.

But thats another problem I have with globalization, if US (or other western world) companies want to move to cheap labor countries and save on labor and pass the savings to customer to decrease final prices of their products sold in their mother countries that is all fine by me. But they are moving to China and India to save on labor but STILL charge the same prices for their goods. And that is what I call corporate greed.

And only if it would be 1/10 the amount of average US salary, it's more like 1/30 of average US salary (US avg is about $14 and people in 3rd world countries usually get paid by the same companies about 25-50 cents per hour)

[NATO]

Apple aren't the only ones...

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2006/06/16/powergen_call_centre/

[Edit : Wh00ps. Beaten to it :p]

[Indo]

yeah sometimes you are talking to an indian but don't realize it. all depends on how good the people are. companies should do a little better maybe teaching indians english, it's not their incompetence. a friend of mine is korean and came here three years ago from korea. it's harder for him to learn because he doesn't understand english as well, but sometimes he'll do math problems really fast "because there is no english involved".

i am actually leaving for india today and hope to visit call/research centers.

and not all companies are pulling out of india, IBM is going to triple their investment there.

"BANGALORE, India, June 6 -- International Business Machines Corp. will triple its investment in India to almost $6 billion in the next three years, highlighting a rush among multinational companies to scoop up young talent as they seek to cut costs, develop technologies and create more efficient ways of doing business for global customers.

The investment, pledged here Tuesday by chairman and chief executive Samuel J. Palmisano, will expand the company's already large footprint in Bangalore. IBM executives said the company will invest in new software labs and centers that develop products and services, as well as test and deliver them to customers........

.......IBM's commitment demonstrates how India has moved beyond being a site for inexpensive back-office operations to become a business hub. Employees in Bangalore collaborate with those in Beijing, Moscow and Sao Paulo to streamline operations for customers working in dozens of different countries. "India and other emerging economies are an increasingly important part of IBM's global success," Palmisano said.

Unlike other parts of the economy, India's software industry has been relatively free of investment restrictions, spurring competition and growth. IBM isn't the only U.S. technology company trying to catch the India wave. In October, Cisco Systems Inc. said it will invest $1.1 billion in research and training in India. In December, Intel Corp. and Microsoft Corp. made investment commitments exceeding $1 billion each, with the funds earmarked for research and the hiring of thousands of employees......"

From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/06/AR2006060601589.html

[ApplesNOranges]

Maybe you can spot the difference in the situation. Think hard.

Because of the South Carolina Toyota factory:

# of Japanese Factories Closed: 0
# of Japanese Jobs Lost: 0
# of Japanese Who Had to Train Their Replacement & Then Got Fired: 0
Really? How many factories were to be closed or jobs lost when Apple was setting up the India unit?

[Leondunkleyc]

.

[Leondunkleyc]

.

[SeaFox]

it doesn't matter matter what country they are in, you'll get the exact same level of service (apart from how well you can understand them). When you call a tech support person, they pick up and a list of options appear on their computer screens. They ask what you want, you say what (e.g. computer won't boot) they click on that link and it tells them what question to ask, a list of possible answers will appear on-screen and they select the one that matches your answer. If it's not on that list they'll just tell you to send it in, if it is they'll go to the next set of questions etc.


That's not how it works in ALL tech support places. Just the lousy ones. I've worked in tech support for three years for:

1) A government website
2) A dial up internet company
3) A cable company
4) Another cable company

And none of them used scripting. If the answer seemed to be the same everytime you called it, it was because that generally was the main reason for the issue, and everyone is trained the same. Also, QA standards on how one should speak to customers tends to make a reps seem boilerplate.

[markiv810]

it doesn't matter matter what country they are in, you'll get the exact same level of service (apart from how well you can understand them). When you call a tech support person, they pick up and a list of options appear on their computer screens. They ask what you want, you say what (e.g. computer won't boot) they click on that link and it tells them what question to ask, a list of possible answers will appear on-screen and they select the one that matches your answer. If it's not on that list they'll just tell you to send it in, if it is they'll go to the next set of questions etc.

You are right for most of the part but I am in India and there are not many people who are familiar with how a mac works much less OS X. I can understand opening a Windows Support center in India as Windows is the prime OS in India but OS X, the percentage of OS X users in India would be less than 0.1 %. So it was not logical for Apple to open a center in Bangalore, plus with the water and electricity shortage in Bangalore and not to forget the pollution it would not have been a wise choice anyhow.

[blitzkrieg79]

Really? How many factories were to be closed or jobs lost when Apple was setting up the India unit?

The difference here is that the Japanese opened up auto factories in US for North American market only (mostly US market). Apple has opened up their call center jobs in India (jobs that could have been based on American soil) to support mostly American customers based on US soil. See the difference?

If Apple wants to open call centers in India that is fine as long as they will support India and neighboring countries only (of similar economic statue).

[JackSYi]

India's turnover rate is ridiculous. Something like 50%.

[markiv810]

India's turnover rate is ridiculous. Something like 50%.

Its very possible as the workers in India are paid almost nothing and so it lowers the input cost considerably, charging in dollars and paying in rupees is the main cause for that kind of growth rate, plus the things have just started to improve here in India. Don't get caught up with numbers they never tell the truth. Almost forgot to mention the bad work ethics of Indian corporate where employees are forced to work more than 40 hours a week without any extra pay. People are brainwashed to think more about the country than about themselves, individualism has taken a back seat here.

[abacus]

Its very possible as the workers in India are paid almost nothing and so it lowers the input cost considerably, charging in dollars and paying in rupees is the main cause for that kind of growth rate, plus the things have just started to improve here in India. Don't get caught up with numbers they never tell the truth. Almost forgot to mention the bad work ethics of Indian corporate where employees are forced to work more than 40 hours a week without any extra pay. People are brainwashed to think more about the country than about themselves, individualism has taken a back seat here.

No offense meant mate, though I doubt what kind of information you have about the technology industry in India. The call center employees in India (and maybe in many under-developed nations) might not be having exactly the best life, however corporate India in general are not squeezing the life out of employees. I have worked for couple of the top IT providers here, and also for an American insurance giant and a British retailer - I must say, the work culture and atmosphere are equal, if not better with the Indian companies. We get to hear a lot of appreciations from the overseas clients as well, in the same lines.

I am not generalizing here either, just pointing out another side of the same coin. I do know IT industry works slightly different from the support industry (we do not deal with the end users really in a voice support mode, but manage the systems), however IT also forms part of corporate world.

Back on topic - I am neither for nor against outsourcing. There are both positives and negatives involved and the arguments can go on and on. Guess the trend will be there for a while, we all have to get used to it, or die trying to avoid it. :p

[markiv810]

No offense meant mate, though I doubt what kind of information you have about the technology industry in India. The call center employees in India (and maybe in many under-developed nations) might not be having exactly the best life, however corporate India in general are not squeezing the life out of employees. I have worked for couple of the top IT providers here, and also for an American insurance giant and a British retailer - I must say, the work culture and atmosphere are equal, if not better with the Indian companies. We get to hear a lot of appreciations from the overseas clients as well, in the same lines.

I am not generalizing here either, just pointing out another side of the same coin. I do know IT industry works slightly different from the support industry (we do not deal with the end users really in a voice support mode, but manage the systems), however IT also forms part of corporate world.

Back on topic - I am neither for nor against outsourcing. There are both positives and negatives involved and the arguments can go on and on. Guess the trend will be there for a while, we all have to get used to it, or die trying to avoid it. :p

None taken there, just to clear out something my opinion is not based on something I just read in the newspaper I am an Indian and am living here in India so I guess I know what I am talking about. Patriotic jingoism would not get us anywhere, I am a computer engineer myself and there is a lot of difference between the salaries here in India and in US or any 1st world country for that matter. I could rant on for ever about the standard of living and the work environment etc, but I guess since you are from India I need not inform you about that cos you already know.

[JackSYi]

Its very possible as the workers in India are paid almost nothing and so it lowers the input cost considerably, charging in dollars and paying in rupees is the main cause for that kind of growth rate, plus the things have just started to improve here in India. Don't get caught up with numbers they never tell the truth. Almost forgot to mention the bad work ethics of Indian corporate where employees are forced to work more than 40 hours a week without any extra pay. People are brainwashed to think more about the country than about themselves, individualism has taken a back seat here.

I am a global studies major at UCSB and I've studied the labor markets or India. During a guest lecture from an Indian professor, he said that corporations are pulling out because the cost to train "specialized" employees such as Apple's tech-support employees are high and the turnover rate is ridiculous, so companies such as Apple would not really benefit greatly. However, India's outsourcing market is growing at a staggering rate because of the large work force who can also speak english but also will work for very low wages.

[coffey7]

Absolutely good news.

If Apple (or Microsoft, or Dell, or anyone else) want to open a support center in India for the purpose of supporting customers in India and nearby countries, then that's great. But when I call an American company for tech support from here in the US, I expect to talk to someone in the US (or Canada at the very least). This isn't racism or anything; I'd have just as big an issue with it if they hired Highland Scotsmen to man the support lines. I can't understand people with strong non-American accents, and when I am calling in for tech support, the last thing I need is any sort of communication barrier between myself and the support tech.

thats very mean sprited.your not a good liberal.

[ApplesNOranges]

The difference here is that the Japanese opened up auto factories in US for North American market only (mostly US market). Apple has opened up their call center jobs in India (jobs that could have been based on American soil) to support mostly American customers based on US soil. See the difference?

If Apple wants to open call centers in India that is fine as long as they will support India and neighboring countries only (of similar economic statue).
So if GM wants to sell cars to India, should India insist on GM factories in India? By that logic most countries should put up huge tariff walls to make sure all production/selling by foreign companies is done domestically. Taking that further, trade is bad since every time you import you are choosing not to buy from a domestic producer of goods or services.

When I last looked at my iPod and PowerBook, they were made in Taiwan. Heck, why not insist that Apple produce these in the US, bringing those jobs back to the US?!

Be American, buy American!

[Mord]

why not wall off the entire world with 12' walls separating us all.

[artfrm]

I agree with the fact you contact apple for support should be located within the same region as me.

But for making jokes at people that have a accent and have a different culture to you is shameful.

Evidence that racial issues still exist in the modern era and the fact the some apple users are dicks.

To the minority of people why dont you log off your computer and go outside and try and get a life?!!!!

[Teddy's]

The modern world is based upon American/European/Japanese research and development, everyone else is just following it.


That is nasty

Thanks for ignoring the world!