US & Iraqi authorities: al-Zarqawi killed in air strike

[Thomas Veil]

Airstrike kills terror leader al-Zarqawi in Iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the most wanted terrorist in Iraq, was killed in a coalition airstrike near Baquba, jubilant U.S. and Iraqi authorities announced Thursday.

The killing of al-Zarqawi, who had a $25 million bounty on his head, is a major coup for the embattled coalition forces.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, Gen. George Casey, the highest-ranking U.S. commander in Iraq, and U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad announced the development at a news conference.

"Today, Zarqawi has been killed," al-Maliki said. The announcement was greeted by cheers and applause.

Khalilzad -- who called al-Zarqawi "the godfather of sectarian killing and terror in Iraq" -- said the death "marks a great success for Iraq and the global war on terror" and calls it a "good omen" for the new Iraqi government.

"His organization has been responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians in Iraq and abroad."

In London, British Prime Minister Tony Blair said called the al-Zarqawi's death "a very important moment in Iraq. A blow for al Qaeda in Iraq is a blow for al Qaeda everywhere."

Casey provided details about the strike that killed al-Zarqawi.

He said al-Zarqawi and a key lieutenant, spiritual adviser Sheik Abd-Al-Rahman, were at an isolated safe house at 6:15 p.m. on Wednesday.

"Tips and intelligence from Iraqi senior leaders from his network led forces to al-Zarqawi and some of his associates who were conducting a meeting approximately eight kilometers north of Baquba when the airstrike was launched.

Baquba is a volatile area northeast of Baghdad in Diyala province, a mixed Shiite-Sunni jurisdiction. There have been many roadside bombings and shootings throughout the province and within the week, severed heads were found in fruit boxes there.

"Iraqi police were first on the scene after the air strike, and elements of Multi-National Division North, arrived shortly thereafter," Casey said. "We have been able to identify al-Zarqawi by fingerprint verification, facial recognition and known scars."

In addition to Zarqawi and the spiritual adviser, seven others died in the attack.

Casey wouldn't provide many details about the action but said that "all of these operations are the result of a long, painstaking process where tips and intelligence are received, processed and checked out."

This particular operation had been in the works for a couple of weeks, leading to the location of the house and the meeting, he said. He noted that the dwelling was in a wooded area.

Casey, proudly saying "the movement has lost its leader," cautioned that "this is just a step in the process" to defeat the insurgency.

Al-Maliki indicated that the strike on al-Zarqawi was the "result of cooperation" with the citizenry, saying that authorities many times have asked the citizenry to provide information.

"This is a message to all those who take violence as a path."

Khalilzad said the demise of al-Zarqawi won't end the violence in Iraq, but it is "an important step in the right direction." He said "there will be difficult days ahead" but said that "today is a good day."

CNN link (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/08/iraq.al.zarqawi/index.html)

Good news, as far as it goes.

We just saved $25 million. ;)

[Dont Hurt Me]

Live by the sword,die by the sword or in this case missile:) He had it coming.

[Peterkro]

If I'm reading the info released so far correctly the $25 million will be paid out.

[skunk]

You mean to tell me he actually existed? I thought he was one of George's imaginary friends.

[Dont Hurt Me]

You mean to tell me he actually existed? I thought he was one of George's imaginary friends.
Your thinking of Bin Laden.

[skunk]

Your thinking of Bin Laden.Him too. :) You couldn't make it up.

[Dont Hurt Me]

The news are reporting that they dropped 2 500lb bombs on him. Im sure he didnt feel a thing which is to bad. We know George likes to torture, im surprised they didnt scoop him up and give him the old chineese water torture.....drip ......drip..........

[freeny]

If I'm reading the info released so far correctly the $25 million will be paid out.
I agree, They say they were tipped off by both people inside his organization as well as some local citizens.

Good news.

And now for his replacement......

[iGary]

I can't say I am against this, but don't we usually give people a trial before executing them?

[Dont Hurt Me]

I can't say I am against this, but don't we usually give people a trial before executing them?
not in a war where he has killed many many. He was wanted dead or alive I think.

[calculus]

A $25 million bounty on his head - that's some chocolate bar, no wonder it killed him.

[Peterkro]

A $25 million bounty on his head - that's some chocolate bar, no wonder it killed him.

:D :D

[iGary]

not in a war where he has killed many many. He was wanted dead or alive I think.

So he killed a lot of people - does that mean he doesn't deserve a trial?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, and I understand it's a war (even though not technically declared on), but why do we get all ths flack about the Gitmo prisoners and Constitutional rights when we do hits on people like Zarqawi?

[rdowns]

Does anyone think this will make any difference? Willprobably only serve to strenghthen these loons desire to kill more people.

I mean, if Bush were to choke on a pretzel and die, would that put this country back on the right track?

[iGary]

I mean, if Bush were to choke on a pretzel and die, would that put this country back on the right track?

No, but I would most likely laugh.

[freeny]

So he killed a lot of people - does that mean he doesn't deserve a trial?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, and I understand it's a war (even though not technically declared on), but why do we get all ths flack about the Gitmo prisoners and Constitutional rights when we do hits on people like Zarqawi?
Prisoners are "protected by laws" to be treated fairly.
Al Zarqawi is an admitted al Qaeda leader who has sworn to kill as many as possible.
It has been said before, in war, leaders are fair game to execution.
Only non combatent citizens are to be avoided.

Sorry to say it but you sound like those freaks who jump to protect the rights of proven child molesters and murderers so they can have the privilege of cable in prison:confused:

I think the key was not to let him get away. Im sure if they had a way to get him alive without jeopardising the safety of our guys they would have.
Parading him around captured and alive like they did Sadam would be more humiliating then his current martyr staus.

[iGary]

Sorry to say it but you sound like those freaks who jump to protect the rights of proven child molesters and murderers so they can have cable in prison:confused:

Um...uh huh.

I said at the beginning of the post I don't necessarily disagree with this action (I don't disagree with it - for the record), but wanted some alternative views on "taking people out," which is usually frowned on greatly by the more liberal among us.

Just trying to provoke a converstaion...you put the words in my mouth, not me.

*shrug*

[freeny]

Um...uh huh.

I said at the beginning of the post I don't necessarily disagree with this action (I don't disagree with it - for the record), but wanted some alternative views on "taking people out," which is usually frowned on greatly by the more liberal among us.

Just trying to provoke a converstaion...you put the words in my mouth, not me.

*shrug*
So that exempts you from a reply?

You said you were trying to provoke conversation only to ridicule the response.
You put a disclaimer in your post so you can back out if the responder is shooting too low:confused:

[atszyman]

This is great news and all, but shouldn't we have done this in 2002?

link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/)

...Bush administration had several chances to wipe out his terrorist operation and perhaps kill Zarqawi himself — but never pulled the trigger.
In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.
The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council.

Don't get me wrong, we might not have gotten him then, but we didn't even try even though it was a full 9 months after 9/11.

It's still a good day but it could've been a good day 4 years ago as well.

[iGary]

So that exempts you from a reply?
You said you were trying to provoke conversation only to ridicule the response.

You said I sounded like "one of those freaks"...maybe I took you incorrectly...

[dpaanlka]

No matter how you try to spin this, you can't say this is a bad thing.

[calculus]

No matter how you try to spin this, you can't say this is a bad thing.
Well that depends on what happens next.

[FFTT]

Imagine that,

just in time to boost those poll numbers.

[Thomas Veil]

While agreeing with freeny's response, I have to say that the "freaks" comment was, shall we say, a poor choice of words...especially since freeny himself characterizes it as "shooting too low". iGary simply posed a thoughtful moral/ethical question. I think we can discuss the matter without projecting opinions onto other people.

And as far as paying out $25 mil to informants...I consider it money well spent. :)

[freeny]

Imagine that,

just in time to boost those poll numbers.
I must say that I watched Bush this morning and he did have a certain swagger.
He was also less sweaty then usual.

and to iGary, although I never said you were a freak, I appologize.

[freeny]

Was the beautifull gilded frame job really necessary?:rolleyes:

[jelloshotsrule]

Was the beautifull frame job really necessary?:rolleyes:

of course. nothing looks better than some dead brown inside that sweet gold frame!

[iGary]

and to iGary, although I never said you were a freak, I appologize.

No worries. I'm kind of a fussy bitch™ this morning. Sorry. :o :)

of course. nothing looks better than some dead brown inside that sweet gold frame!

You are in RARE form this morning. LOL!!

[freeny]

No worries. I'm kind of a fussy bitch™ this morning. Sorry. :o :)
Me too!:)

[Thomas Veil]

Was the beautifull gilded frame job really necessary?:rolleyes::eek: Yikes.

I'm always a bit uncomfortable when they trot out "trophy" pictures like this. The guy was scum, sure, but it's still one step shy of mounting his head on a wooden plaque and hanging it on the wall.

Not that some people wouldn't like that. :)

[Chundles]

Hmmm.... notice how it looks bigger from the left than from the right and how the frame makes a V and a ^ symbol? Get Dan Brown on the phone....

[jelloshotsrule]

:eek: Yikes.

I'm always a bit uncomfortable when they trot out "trophy" pictures like this. The guy was scum, sure, but it's still one step shy of mounting his head on a wooden plaque and hanging it on the wall.

don't worry, the c140 is on its way back now and the head is going straight to the oval office, after a quick stop for a press conference in the rose garden.

[Thomas Veil]

BTW, it's nice to see everybody here kiss and make up, but get a room already, guys. It's disgusting. ;) :D

[iGary]

BTW, it's nice to see everybody here kiss and make up, but get a room already, guys. It's disgusting. ;) :D

Up yours™. :D

[Thomas Veil]

Hmmm.... notice how it looks bigger from the left than from the right and how the frame makes a V and a ^ symbol? Get Dan Brown on the phone....Nah, it kind of reminds me of one of those "spooky" pictures.

Notice how the eyes don't follow you....

[calculus]

I must say that I watched Bush this morning and he did have a certain swagger.

I do love that monkey walk he does.

Was the beautifull gilded frame job really necessary?:rolleyes:
No sign of the bounty though, did somebody eat it? I think we should be told.

[Eraserhead]

While agreeing with freeny's response, I have to say that the "freaks" comment was, shall we say, a poor choice of words...especially since freeny himself characterizes it as "shooting too low". iGary simply posed a thoughtful moral/ethical question. I think we can discuss the matter without projecting opinions onto other people.

And as far as paying out $25 mil to informants...I consider it money well spent. :)

My only worry is preventing the money getting back to the terrorists in Iraq, $25 million can by a lot of guns/bombs.

[rdowns]

Was the beautifull gilded frame job really necessary?:rolleyes:


Really highlights the blond accents in his beard.

[xsedrinam]

Nah, it kind of reminds me of one of those "spooky" pictures.

Notice how the eyes don't follow you....
:D

Speaking of "don't follow", I won't celebrate second fiddler, defuncts until they get the first chair, Us?mah bin Muhammad bin 'Awad bin L?din, most commonly known as Osama bin Laden or Usama bin Laden, like they promised.

[Chundles]

I must say that I watched Bush this morning and he did have a certain swagger.

So he's walking upright now? Or were his knuckles just barely scraping the floor?

[FFTT]

I'm sure they'll find a proper time to get OBL.

Hopefully before any other major event takes place.

[jelloshotsrule]

I'm sure they'll find a proper time to get OBL.

Hopefully before any other major event takes place.

i would've thought 04 elections would've been the time had they enough control and ability to do it...

check out cnn's homepage.

"hunted down"

what a ****ing joke

[calculus]

Do we know anything about the child who was killed?

[jelloshotsrule]

Do we know anything about the child who was killed?

yeah, we know they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. warzabitch, eh? :rolleyes:


what article was the child referenced in? i haven't read any of them all the way through yet...

[Dont Hurt Me]

I wonder if this Murderer still gets his 17 virgins?:confused:

[IJ Reilly]

I'm always a bit uncomfortable when they trot out "trophy" pictures like this. The guy was scum, sure, but it's still one step shy of mounting his head on a wooden plaque and hanging it on the wall.

Right, I thought a pike was traditional.

[calculus]

yeah, we know they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. warzabitch, eh? :rolleyes:


what article was the child referenced in? i haven't read any of them all the way through yet...
...I think I read it on CNN. The Guardian has it as a 'young person'.

Right, I thought a pike was traditional.
"Don't tell him your name Pike!"

[longofest]

I wonder if this Murderer still gets his 17 virgins?:confused:

Nope... He'll get 17 grandma's. No offense to our older generation on MacRumors or to Islam, but this guy was definitely not a muslim. He was a heathen. "Anti-Christ" comes to mind, but I wouldn't go that far...

[Josh]

I wonder if this Murderer still gets his 17 virgins?:confused:

Of course he does.

Can't say they'll be female though.

(tangent: the whole "x number of virgins" thing is a myth. Nowhere in the Koran does it say 72 virgins, or 17 virgins, etc. Dark-eyed virgins on green couches, yes. Could be any number though :P)

[longofest]

Do we know anything about the child who was killed?

a) are we sure a child was killed? I know they were showing guys holding up little sandals, but honestly those sandals looked awfuly in-tact. My first guess would be that some guys brought the children's shoes to the scene to make the U.S. look bad.

b) if it is confirmed that a child was killed, I'd say that it was regretable, but worth it in this case. Killing Zarqawi AND some of his lieutenants is huge, and it begins to give all of those children that have been killed by Zarqawi or by his orders some justice. Plus, perhaps this will place their organization in a bit of disarray and prevent further murders.

[freeny]

Apparently his replacement is an Egyptian named "Al Musari". (spelling??).
Just heard this on cnn.

Why are all these terrorists named AL?

[mactastic]

Hey good news. But the guy who said this day should have come 4 years ago was spot-on. Bush could have taken this guy out long ago, but The Decider decided not to. :(

[jelloshotsrule]

Why are all these terrorists named AL?

you mean like osama bin laden?

[Ugg]

a) are we sure a child was killed? I know they were showing guys holding up little sandals, but honestly those sandals looked awfuly in-tact. My first guess would be that some guys brought the children's shoes to the scene to make the U.S. look bad.

b) if it is confirmed that a child was killed, I'd say that it was regretable, but worth it in this case. Killing Zarqawi AND some of his lieutenants is huge, and it begins to give all of those children that have been killed by Zarqawi or by his orders some justice. Plus, perhaps this will place their organization in a bit of disarray and prevent further murders.

The death of a child is never justifiable and I find it extremely offensive that you could be so cavalier about it. Why can't you simply say it's sad that a child was killed and leave it at that instead of trying to justify it? Barbarians only beget barbarians, IMO.

[Josh]

Apparently his replacement is an Egyptian named "Al Musari". (spelling??).
Just heard this on cnn.

Why are all these terrorists named AL?

Their parents were fans of Married With Children.

[mactastic]

Their parents were fans of Married With Children.
Crap, I was just looking for a classic Al Bundy photo
EDIT: There.
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpg

[IJ Reilly]

"Don't tell him your name Pike!"

Very obscure. I had to look it up. ;)

[calculus]

Very obscure. I had to look it up. ;)
I'm glad you found it. Not too obscure in the UK.

[zimv20]

i'm wondering two things:

1. if the intelligence of his whereabouts was so good, why didn't special forces raid the safe house and take him into custody for interrogation?

2. if a pair of 500 lb. bombs were dropped onto my house, i don't suspect there'd be anything identifiable left of me. not an intact head, anyway.

[longofest]

i'm wondering two things:

1. if the intelligence of his whereabouts was so good, why didn't special forces raid the safe house and take him into custody for interrogation?

2. if a pair of 500 lb. bombs were dropped onto my house, i don't suspect there'd be anything identifiable left of me. not an intact head, anyway.

Note that they didn't show the rest of his body.

Special forces would have had to assemble and fly in on helicopters. Have you seen "Black Hawk Down"? Somone loyal to him may have seen the helicopters and tipped him off and he could have fled: opportunity missed.

[zimv20]

Special forces would have had to assemble and fly in on helicopters. Have you seen "Black Hawk Down"? Somone loyal to him may have seen the helicopters and tipped him off and he could have fled: opportunity missed.
i can't pretend to be a SF expert, but if the confidence in the SF is really so low, why bother having them at all?

maybe you're right. maybe this is the tenth time they've had actionable intelligence, but the other nine times, the attempted captures failed and this time they decided to drop bombs. if that's the case, i'd like to know. hence: wondering.

[longofest]

The death of a child is never justifiable and I find it extremely offensive that you could be so cavalier about it. Why can't you simply say it's sad that a child was killed and leave it at that instead of trying to justify it? Barbarians only beget barbarians, IMO.

Didn't mean to offend, but my opinion is as stated. In war, people (including the most innocent among us) die. We are in a worldwide war on terrorism. The battlefront of Iraq probably should have never happened in my opinion, but it did, and with it we uncovered a terrorist that was plotting and planning before we even stepped foot in Iraq. He began a massive campaign and allied himself with our biggest enemy (Al Qadea) , and has ordered or killed with his own hands more innocent people ON PURPOSE (and that's key) than you can count. To have him brought to justice is a great thing, and I won't let the fact that he used a woman and child as a human shields deter my joy in the fact that he is no longer a threat to those people over there.

Of course, his organization lives on without him and so does the fight (which of course brings up other issues of balancing the sword with dialog and winning hearts/minds. we seem to be too heavy handed with the sword recently). However, now those who have lost their children because a bomber sent by him, or those who have had family beheaded by him can find some measure of comfort in the fact that justice has been done to him.

i can't pretend to be a SF expert, but if the confidence in the SF is really so low, why bother having them at all?

maybe you're right. maybe this is the tenth time they've had actionable intelligence, but the other nine times, the attempted captures failed and this time they decided to drop bombs. if that's the case, i'd like to know. hence: wondering.

it's not so much that confidence in SF is low, but when you have SUCH a high-value target, you really want to make sure you nail it. A 500-lb bomb is more certain and quick than a SF raid. However, if you want to capture someone alive, then yeah, you are going to want to a raid. Also, a bomb isn't so practical in a highly populated place, as you will multiply collatoral damage and civilian casualties. In this case, the location was relatively remote, so a bomb was a good fit.

[Blue Velvet]

We are in a worldwide war on terrorism.

No, you're not. Otherwise you'd be taking up arms against the Tamil Tigers, Maoist rebels and other assorted groups who have resorted to violence.

You're just spitting out memes, to quote Tom Cruise.

[Ugg]

Didn't mean to offend, but my opinion is as stated. In war, people (including the most innocent among us) die. We are in a worldwide war on terrorism.

Terror has existed world wide since time began and the US has been a major instigator of terror around the world. Present day Somalia is a good case in point. Instead of continually killing innocents around the world, the US needs to take a good hard look in the mirror and fess up to its role. The continued deliberate killing of innocents will do nothing to stop terror, it only increases it.

[Chundles]

Are you sure it's that Al Zarqawi bloke? Looks a hell of a lot like Cat Stevens to me. ;)

[longofest]

No, you're not. Otherwise you'd be taking up arms against the Tamil Tigers, Maoist rebels and other assorted groups who have resorted to violence.

You're just spitting out memes, to quote Tom Cruise.

Okay, fair enough. What I meant to point out is that it isn't just Iraq. It is Iraq, Afghanistan, in America, and other places that you don't see every day (Phillipenes, etc). Plus, our law enforcement agencies are aiding a ton of other allies (like Canada, Britain, Australia, Israel, and too many others to list) to diffuse plots that are trying to unfold. So all that combined spans the globe, but it may not be totally "worldwide."

And yes, we pick and choose which threats to go after. Some threats we correctly identify (I supported and continue to support our operations in Afghanistan, as the Taliban was actively supporting Al Qadea), and others are probably not so good choices (Iraq).

[Josh]

Terror has existed world wide since time began and the US has been a major instigator of terror around the world. Present day Somalia is a good case in point. Instead of continually killing innocents around the world, the US needs to take a good hard look in the mirror and fess up to its role. The continued deliberate killing of innocents will do nothing to stop terror, it only increases it.

While I agree with 99% of the above, I don't recall that any innocents in this incident were "deliberately" killed.

Collaterally, perhaps, deliberately, no.

[Nickygoat]

i can't pretend to be a SF expert, but if the confidence in the SF is really so low, why bother having them at all?
Because for most of the US units carrying the name it's just that - a name.
FWIW I'm glad he's gone but I doubt it will change very much.
The local groups can do just fine without him.
I personally subscribe to the theory that the Amman bombings, claimed by Al Zarqawi, were the key to his death. Many Arabs saw this as an unnecessary step, and were repulsed by it.
And to the poster who asked "Why are they all called Al?" - it roughly translates as "of" - as in Al Zarqawi = of Zarqa (a town in Jordan where he grew up). The Arab equivalent of a Western surname describing a trade eg Smith or Carpenter.

[longofest]

Terror has existed world wide since time began and the US has been a major instigator of terror around the world. Present day Somalia is a good case in point. Instead of continually killing innocents around the world, the US needs to take a good hard look in the mirror and fess up to its role. The continued deliberate killing of innocents will do nothing to stop terror, it only increases it.

I may agree with you on a portion of this. Our foreign policy sucks in general. We use too much sword/stick, and not enough diplomacy. We seem to think we can nation-build, even though we haven't done a good job at that since WWII and Germany/Japan (although we did do a damn good job with those guys).

So, I guess we'll leave it on that note... we agree on something :eek: :)

[zimv20]

I'm glad he's gone but I doubt it will change very much.
The local groups can do just fine without him.
i've always wondered how much the US villified zarqawi in order to have a named enemy in iraq. i guess we're going to find out in the coming weeks and months.

[Chundles]

I may agree with you on a portion of this. Our foreign policy sucks in general. We use too much sword/stick, and not enough diplomacy. We seem to think we can nation-build, even though we haven't done a good job at that since WWII and Germany/Japan (although we did do a damn good job with those guys).

So, I guess we'll leave it on that note... we agree on something :eek: :)

Had a fair whack of help in WW2 though remember - waaay more than today in Iraq. Something to do with a massive well-organised enemy army and a threat you could see from a long, long way away that makes both the governments and the citizens of the countries involved support a war.

Now what have we got? Enemies you can't see nor stop, a coalition of strong countries but not the support of the people within those countries, troops being killed every single day by the same people we helped to arm and train and all in a region where the west has never really been well received since that little kerfuffle called the Crusades.

It's a right royal mess and it's going to take us some getting out of. It's no longer a case of cutting off the head so that the body dies, now if you cut off the head there's another six more waiting behind it. Killing or capturing Osama's not going to really do much - I guarantee you he's got a bunch of people ready to take over at a moment's notice, remember, he's a very ill man.

[Ugg]

I may agree with you on a portion of this. Our foreign policy sucks in general. We use too much sword/stick, and not enough diplomacy. We seem to think we can nation-build, even though we haven't done a good job at that since WWII and Germany/Japan (although we did do a damn good job with those guys).

So, I guess we'll leave it on that note... we agree on something :eek: :)

Our role in Germany's recovery from WWII has been so bloated with self serving rhetoric that it's not even funny.

If it hadn't been for the increasing threat of the USSR, we would have likely sided with the French and the Brits and emasculated Germany. The German recover had three aspects.

1. Well over 90% of all industrial capacity was intact at the end of the war (although 40% of the housing stock was totally destroyed)
2. Germany was a land of immigrants after the war with over 13 million being kicked out of their homes in eastern Europe. Immigrants generally work harder especially when there are no language barriers.
3. Lucius Clay's sense of fairness.

[mactastic]

i've always wondered how much the US villified zarqawi in order to have a named enemy in iraq. i guess we're going to find out in the coming weeks and months.
While it's hard to overstate Zarqawi's murderous persona (he's alleged to have beheaded at least one or two humans himself with a knife), I think we will find out that he was not the source of all the violence we see in Iraq today. Probably we will not see more than a 10% drop in insurgent activities with his death, and likely his successor will want to up the ante, so to speak, to gain some credibility of his own with some high-profile attacks.

Foreign jihadists were never the bulk of the Iraqi insurgency, although they did make up many of the suicide bombers. Sunni Iraqis are the backbone of the insurgency, and they were unaffected by Zarqawi's death.

IOW, the insurgency is still far from being in it's final throes.

[blackfox]

hmm...interesting.

See the power of decent intel? I am glad he is dead, though I really wonder what difference it is going to make.

I hae come around to the opinion that we have already lost in Iraq and Afghanistan, because are actions have been nearly the opposite of what wins counterinsurgencies.

Running into a place, destroying much of it, destabilizing the soceity - that makes the perfect conditions for insurgency traction - groups with money to spend, a common religion and language. You present yourself as a foreign occupier, a group to galvanize opposition to, and to bring people to your cause, if only while the outside threat exists.

Then there is Democracy, which as great as it can be, just sets the conditions again for insurgents/terrorists to set up shop, because the Democracy is weak, the populace and government divided, the institutions weak, and the ability of the government to act, limited. In somewhere like Afghanistan, where prerequisites to Democracy are non-existent, and a Central government threatens tribal culture - again you present a golden opportunity to those who would exploit the situation.

This seems like a truimph of ideology over pragmatism, because in the rest of the world, the US is fighting terrorism in the way it normally has - small-scale insertions, public works and intelligence-gathering, with pointed strikes on individual targets. It doesn't garner headlines, but it works.

The powers-that-be, must know the historical examples of these contrasting types of activities - insurgencies have been around as long as great Empires - there is a wealth of historical precedent.

The methods employed in Iraq and Afghanistan have never worked, as Algiers most recently illustrates, while our more general policy has created much better dividend historically.

So, yay, that we we killed a bad guy, but long-gone our the days when an army lay down it's arms at the death of their leader.

I am also curious about the intactness of Zarqawi's head.

[XNine]

To quote David Cross:
"The war on terrorism is a ****ing joke. It's like having a war on jealousy..."

There will always be terrorism from someone. While I admit our President is a jackass and shouldn't have gone in their, I'm thinking maybe it would ahve been wise to let the Russians take them over in the early 80's. The russians may have been insane, but not nearly so as radical religious freaks.

I do know that the one guy that was captured alive from that school attack nearly 2 years ago in Russia (or a region close by it) is going to go to trial soon. He was quoted as saying "They forced me to do it." Yeah, beg for your life now that you know the Russians are going to stick electrode-filled metal pipes up your ass for the rest of your life scumbag... These guys are real tough when their shooting and bombings schools filled with children, but ain't **** when they don't have a bomb strapped to them.

[Mike Teezie]

Note that they didn't show the rest of his body.

Special forces would have had to assemble and fly in on helicopters. Have you seen "Black Hawk Down"? Somone loyal to him may have seen the helicopters and tipped him off and he could have fled: opportunity missed.

Don't believe everything you see in a Jerry Bruckheimer movie.

An SF team was there on the ground - they called in the air strike. No link. My brother (SF) and I just got off the phone, and this topic happened to come up. He said the two bombs they dropped are insane overkill. He speculated this must be the first real intelligence they had on the guy, hence the massive overkill.

Plus, SF wouldn't be the guys they sent in anyway for a kill 'em all type raid. That would be the Rangers.

[solvs]

I can't say I am against this, but don't we usually give people a trial before executing them?
They really have turned you into a liberal here haven't they. :p

I would have liked to see him go to trial as well, but I'm assuming they've been trying to nail him for awhile and people are getting antsy. So they get him any way they can. Doubt it was the bomb itself that killed him though, it was probably the fallout (or whatever the term is). Can't say I'm happy about another human being getting killed, especially if there were innocents caught in the explosion (though there have also been reports of children running away from the area, so I'm glad some got out), but from what I know about the man, he deserves his fate. He was far from a figurehead or scape goat as the other second in commands we kept seeming to get every couple of months were. He was a killer and helped to ignite the insurgents against us (not that that was hard thanks to how badly we've screwed this up), both foreign and local. This will probably not help much though, and could even hurt us. Possibly why they haven't caught Bin Laden yet. The blowback. They already hate us, but I wonder how much (more) chaos there will be as they take out (more) revenge on us and claw for power in his wake.

Hopefully some of the locals start seeing us as the lesser of 2 evils and realize the less they fight back, the sooner we leave. But somehow, I doubt it. To semi-quote Mitch Hedberg, it's either going to get a lot worse, or a lot better, or it's going to stay about the same. (sorry, no smilie)

[iGary]

They really have turned you into a liberal here haven't they. :p

You can thank Bush for tempering my right-wing tendencies. :p

This from CNN this morning:

37 civilians have been killed in Baghdad bombings a day after Zarqawi was killed in a bomb raid.

[jelloshotsrule]

This from CNN this morning:

also, another stupid, misleading headling from cnn

U.S.: Al-Zarqawi alive and mumbling after bombing

[mactastic]

How is that stupid and misleading? :confused:

[Josh]

How is that stupid and misleading? :confused:

As a headline alone, it makes one think that he is *still* alive.

You'd have to read the article to know that his mumbling lasted on a short while, and he is actually dead.

[jelloshotsrule]

As a headline alone, it makes one think that he is *still* alive.

You'd have to read the article to know that his mumbling lasted on a short while, and he is actually dead.

exactly.

now, i realize i was not fully awake when i read it, but it's just a poorly worded headline. it's not like it's short either. if it were going for brevity, that'd be one thing

"zarqawi alive after bombing". but throw in that extra "and mumbling" and you may as well say "zarqawi initially found alive" or something. cnn headlines suck

[mactastic]

Oh ok. Was that headline all on it's own, or was it in a context that let you know he was dead already?

[jelloshotsrule]

Oh ok. Was that headline all on it's own, or was it in a context that let you know he was dead already?

it was the entire headline, though below it (in the little blurb before you click on the whole story link), it said that he was alive when the military first arrived, then died.

they changed it within the last 15 minutes or so to:

"zarqawi struggled on stretcher, then died"... which is definitely better

i like to think it's because i sent them an email complaining about it. ;)

[Josh]

Now that I think about it...what is even the point?

They could have pretty much said: "The wind blew his hair, and his left shoe was untied."

It would be no less ridiculous.

[zimv20]

so he was alive and mumbling even though his head was not attached to his body? or was that a posthumous separation?

[jelloshotsrule]

so he was alive and mumbling even though his head was not attached to his body? or was that a posthumous separation?

where'd you see that the two were separated? they had a picture of his head, but it wasn't necessarily detached from his body....

[zimv20]

where'd you see that the two were separated? they had a picture of his head, but it wasn't necessarily detached from his body....
it'd been discussed in this thread. i'd gullibly taken it for fact.

in that case, two 500 lbs. did not kill him outright. interesting.

[Josh]

in that case, two 500 lbs. did not kill him outright. interesting.

You think God would send a mere mortal to fight his cause?

One does not simply walk into Baghdad.

[jelloshotsrule]

it'd been discussed in this thread. i'd gullibly taken it for fact.

in that case, two 500 lbs. did not kill him outright. interesting.

i figured i was the one missing something, per usual. so i was hoping you'd give me a link to clue me in. hah

[solvs]

in that case, two 500 lbs. did not kill him outright. interesting.
No, like I said, the fallout/blowback was probably what got him. I don't remember the term, but it's like in an earthquake. It's not the quake that kills you, it's the falling debris. There's still some question about what did it. Apparently he was alive when the Iraqis found him, but in very poor shape. He was dead by the time we checked him or almost immediately afterwards. Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13222000/). They don't suspect any "foul play" (like someone up and shooting him before the medics got there) and they did try to administer some form of medical help to him, but they probably just wanted him dead, and were tired of losing him, so they went all out to get him and dropped the bomb. There's an autopsy going on, so I'm sure we'll get more details soon. Doubt the administration wants to hide anything about it right now, so I suspect almost whatever they find they'll be shouting from the rafters.

Several people were seriously injured, 4 other people killed immediately, including a woman and a young child. :(

[Dont Hurt Me]

Im glad he was alive just long enough to know it was over, still to fast a death for this murder. Anyone remember the 60 Iraqi's he killed at the wedding?

[solvs]

I'm always a bit uncomfortable when they trot out "trophy" pictures like this. The guy was scum, sure, but it's still one step shy of mounting his head on a wooden plaque and hanging it on the wall.
I just read an article here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13212323/) that mentioned that. Brings about the whole martyr thing. I'm sure the WH is going to promote this as much as they can, they need all the good news they can get. But they have to tread lightly. If there's an increase in violence as payback, or even if things stay about the same, this could backfire on them. Just another thing they said would be the turning point that isn't.

Of course I'm hoping the violence ends, but I just don't see it.

[mactastic]

So I thought theliberalmedia was hiding all the good news in Iraq from us? Why the incessant photos of, and stories about, dead Zarqawi on all the news outlets if they are so averse to showing us the good news and all?

[Dont Hurt Me]

The Republicans just throw the label Liberal on anyone who isnt toting the party line. Like this...Dick Cheney is a draft dodging scumbag. see Iam now a liberal.:)

[zimv20]

some interesting stuff in this independent article (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article753708.ece):

No sooner was Saddam captured than the US spokesmen began to mention Zarqawi's name in every sentence. "If the weather is bad they will blame it on Zarqawi," an Iraqi journalist once said to me. It emerged earlier this year that the US emphasis on Zarqawi as the prime leader of the Iraqi resistance was part of a carefully calculated propaganda programme. A dubious letter from Zarqawi was conveniently discovered. One internal briefing document quoted by The Washington Post records Brigadier General Kimmitt, the chief US military spokesman at the time, as saying: "The Zarqawi psy-op programme is the most successful information campaign to date." The US campaign was largely geared towards the American public and above all the American voter. It was geared to proving that the invasion of Iraq was a reasonable response to the 9/11 attacks. This meant it was necessary to show al-Qa'ida was strong in Iraq and play down the fact that this had only happened after the invasion.


Zarqawi's war was devised to have the maximum political impact. There was the beheading of foreign captives shown on videos and broadcast via the internet. He was an enemy to America's liking. Though US military officials in Baghdad openly admitted that few insurgents were non-Iraqi, Zarqawi's Jordanian origins were useful in suggesting that the insurrection was orchestrated from outside Iraq.

so, now that the four boogeymen to date (saddam, his two sons, and zarqawi) are either dead or captured, the administration is all out of bad guys in iraq. i suppose we'll learn about a new one soon.

[XNine]

Well, the reports of two women and children are raising feathers of some people. It's hard for me to justify that a child be killed, but most likely it was some bastard child of his or one of his men, and would grow up to continue the hatred. I don't know. It's a tough call on that one. I'd like to know the relationship between these women, the child, and the men that were killed.

And, I must ask, it took two 500 lbs. bombs to kill this guy. Was this a huge fortress and they were all just gathered in the living room, or what?

[skunk]

Well, the reports of two women and children are raising feathers of some people. It's hard for me to justify that a child be killed, but most likely it was some bastard child of his or one of his men, and would grow up to continue the hatred. I don't know. It's a tough call on that one. I'd like to know the relationship between these women, the child, and the men that were killed.

And, I must ask, it took two 500 lbs. bombs to kill this guy. Was this a huge fortress and they were all just gathered in the living room, or what?Sounds like a normal police operation to me. If you know where the perp is, call up an F-16 and flatten the fecker, together with anybody in the area at the time.

Isn't that how it's done?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Sounds like a normal police operation to me. If you know where the perp is, call up an F-16 and flatten the fecker, together with anybody in the area at the time.

Isn't that how it's done?
Problem is Govt can get use to this kind of thing and the people in power are never the ones fighting the wars. Still this attack on a terrorist was well thought out and executed. Lets just start the slow withdrawel from Iraq.

[skunk]

Problem is Govt can get use to this kind of thing and the people in power are never the ones fighting the wars. Still this attack on a terrorist was well thought out and executed. Lets just start the slow withdrawel from Iraq.I think you missed the irony. The "War" ended ages ago, according to your Chimp-in-Chief. What should be happening at this stage, therefore, is police-style operations, not bombing missions. Can you imagine the British sending in bombers to flatten Gerry Adams, the leader of the "insurgency"?

[Dont Hurt Me]

I think you missed the irony. The "War" ended ages ago, according to your Chimp-in-Chief. What should be happening at this stage, therefore, is police-style operations, not bombing missions. Can you imagine the British sending in bombers to flatten Gerry Adams, the leader of the "insurgency"?Fact is Bush stinks, but the other fact is Iraq is still figuring itself out and isnt there yet if you will, but I bet you will see a withdrawel start before November.

[Thomas Veil]

It's hard for me to justify that a child be killed, but most likely it was some bastard child of his or one of his men, and would grow up to continue the hatred.That's still just a justification, based on no real evidence.

I'm not criticizing your statement, only agreeing with what you subsequently said, that in war you sometimes have to make really nasty choices like this.

Actually, a better justification for the death of the child would be that if they hadn't killed al-Zarqawi then and there when they had him, al-Zarqawi would've caused more deaths in the future. So it's a matter of weighing one innocent child's life against other innocents that you know al-Zarqawi would have no qualms about killing.

Like I said, that's one hell of a nasty choice to have to make. :(

[mactastic]

Well now they're saying there was no child killed at all. 3 women, 3 men, one of whom was the Z-man.

[FFTT]

Well today the news report said that he briefly survived the bombing
long enough to be put on a stretcher, tried to move, muttered something inaudible then passed on.

[yg17]

Fact is Bush stinks, but the other fact is Iraq is still figuring itself out and isnt there yet if you will, but I bet you will see a withdrawel start before November.

And what do we have in November? ELECTIONS!

[blackfox]

I actually heard on the news that troop levels seem unlikely to be cut for the rest of the year - election or not.

[Thomas Veil]

Watch Bush's poll numbers rise, followed by the Republicans singing Hosannas to his highness for making the world safer.

They're gonna try to ride this one as much as possible into the November elections. Not so much Bush, who can't be re-elected (we think...), but those who want to coat-tail him.

[calculus]

Watch Bush's poll numbers rise, followed by the Republicans singing Hosannas to his highness for making the world safer.

They're gonna try to ride this one as much as possible into the November elections. Not so much Bush, who can't be re-elected (we think...), but those who want to coat-tail him.
Well since Bush has only actually been elected once he'll probably get another go.

[mactastic]

Watch Bush's poll numbers rise, followed by the Republicans singing Hosannas to his highness for making the world safer.

They're gonna try to ride this one as much as possible into the November elections. Not so much Bush, who can't be re-elected (we think...), but those who want to coat-tail him.
Oh he'll get a temporary bounce all right - just like he did after we caught Saddam. Three months later all that goodwill have evaporated when people saw that the violence had not abated.

Not that it will stop the spinmeisters from saying that 'Bush's fortunes have reversed' and other nonsense.

[FFTT]

I hope for the sake of the troops and the civilians there, that the intelligence they found helps to disolve at least one major faction of the insurgency.

The raids taking place as we speak may yield more information that could
cripple the most radical groups and possibly help to locate their weapons
cache.

It's hard to say because the ethnic battles may be beyond our control.

We still have a long way to go fighting the deeply rooted Islamic culture,
equality for women, poverty and joblessness and establishing a separation of church and state.

In simple terms, we are seen as trying to undermine their faith.
That the age old teachings of Islam are false or at least misguided.
It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that we are there to
exploit their natural resources.

A small group will become very rich while the majority of the people
remain poor.

I wish I had a more favorable outlook

[Desertrat]

"...muttered something inaudible then passed on."

What's the Arabic for, "Oh, s***!"?

Think of the fun the Intel boffins wil have with cellphones and computer records. Think of the not-fun for those whose names, phone numbers and addresses are found therein.

Since it's known he was snitched out, think of the anti-snitch purge to follow.

The LawDog puts it nicely:

"Couple of folks are going to wind up spending a Social Inquiry session or two with the Loyalty Brigade and their Magic 8-Ball of Truth (also doubles as a field phone, if you don't mind the BBQ smell), and there will be a bit of a purge of the disloyal -- some of whom will actually be snitches, and others who simply wound up on someones smoke list, (this being as good a time as any to whack a rival or two), or just collateral damage.

All of which further serves to strain loyalties, what with the shrieking and the bodies flopping about and the psycho fanatics and the wondering which snitches got missed..."

How to find his successor: Follow the Maalox shipments to the area...

:D, 'Rat

[Thomas Veil]

Well since Bush has only actually been elected once he'll probably get another go.Don't laugh; I'm just waiting for some jackass Republican to seriously suggest it.

"Well, you know how we thought he won fair and square in 2000? Well, I guess we were wrong. And hey, it's too late to do anything about that now, so get over it. But since Bush was elected properly only once, he should be allowed to run again."

Sure it's cartoonish and ridiculous and totally unlikely to happen...but OTOH nothing this government does would surprise me anymore.

[xsedrinam]

Don't laugh; I'm just waiting for some jackass Republican to seriously suggest it.

"Well, you know how we thought he won fair and square in 2000? Well, I guess we were wrong. And hey, it's too late to do anything about that now, so get over it. But since Bush was elected properly only once, he should be allowed to run again."

Sure it's cartoonish and ridiculous and totally unlikely to happen...but OTOH nothing this government does would surprise me anymore.
We have a dream.

[solvs]

Well since Bush has only actually been elected once he'll probably get another go.
Don't even joke like that! :eek:

Not that I think he'd win fair and square, but since his team doesn't exactly play fair... I don't even want to think about it.

[calculus]

Don't laugh; I'm just waiting for some jackass Republican to seriously suggest it.

"Well, you know how we thought he won fair and square in 2000? Well, I guess we were wrong. And hey, it's too late to do anything about that now, so get over it. But since Bush was elected properly only once, he should be allowed to run again."

Sure it's cartoonish and ridiculous and totally unlikely to happen...but OTOH nothing this government does would surprise me anymore.
Well unfortunately I think that the political/lawyer class is completely capable of that kind of 'logic'. Some things are beyond satire.

[FFTT]

We have to keep in mind BushCo's divine intervention in everything constitutional.

One theory making the rounds is that another " created event " might be used
to delay the customary November 2008 election schedule.

The same goes for any viable attempt to impeach this administration.

With the country in chaos, the current presidency would then be extended
for the good of the American people of course.

[saunders45]

Terror has existed world wide since time began and the US has been a major instigator of terror around the world. Present day Somalia is a good case in point. Instead of continually killing innocents around the world, the US needs to take a good hard look in the mirror and fess up to its role. The continued deliberate killing of innocents will do nothing to stop terror, it only increases it.

Somalia is an example of a weak effort on our part. We got stung and we turned our tail and ran. Plain and simple. It showed the world that all you have to do to "beat America" is to kill a few soldiers, and get the press in to take pictures. That mess is Clinton's fault with his no balls approach to conflicts.

The thing the boggles my mind the most is how some people here seem to know the "right" answer for the situation in Iraq, but have never even been there. I have 5 friends who have been or are currently deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. 2 are in the marines and 3 are in the army. From what they tell me, 95% of the people there are GRATEFULL and APPRECIATE us being there. Some of the stories I've heard are just amazing.

[skunk]

Somalia is an example of a weak effort on our part. We got stung and we turned our tail and ran. Plain and simple. It showed the world that all you have to do to "beat America" is to kill a few soldiers, and get the press in to take pictures. That mess is Clinton's fault with his no balls approach to conflicts.Oh really? So whose fault is the present Somali debacle, where the US have backed the wrong people yet again and have had their proxies' asses kicked? It's brains you need, not balls. Unfortunately Bush has neither.

The thing the boggles my mind the most is how some people here seem to know the "right" answer for the situation in Iraq, but have never even been there. I have 5 friends who have been or are currently deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. 2 marines and 3 army. From what they tell me, 95% of the people there are GRATEFULL and APPRECIATE us being there. Some of the stories I've heard are just amazing.That would explain why no journalist dares to leave the Green Zone, why US helicopters have to fly fast and low, and why oil exports are still way below what SH managed. Even with your random 5% insurgency, that's over a million enemies. Your friends seem to be singularly misinformed.

[saunders45]

Oh really? So whose fault is the present Somali debacle, where the US have backed the wrong people yet again and have had their proxies' asses kicked? It's brains you need, not balls. Unfortunately Bush has neither.

That would explain why no journalist dares to leave the Green Zone, why US helicopters have to fly fast and low, and why oil exports are still way below what SH managed. Even with your random 5% insurgency, that's over a million enemies. Your friends seem to be singularly misinformed.

How the hell can they be "misinformed?" They've been there. Have you? I think not. Misinformed is believing everything you see in the news. Walking down the streets in Baghdad, that's a different story. Fast and low, DUH, that's what they do. It's not a site seeing flight over Disney.....

The present Somalia debacle is no different than what happened in 1994. It's the same conflict.

[zimv20]

How the hell can they be "misinformed?" They've been there.
once, i was in ireland briefly. did you know that 90% of that country is covered in runways?

dare i ask the sample size of your friends' poll? and how did they arrive at their figure? did the insurgents they chatted with express disapproval of their presence?

[Ugg]

Somalia is an example of a weak effort on our part. We got stung and we turned our tail and ran. Plain and simple. It showed the world that all you have to do to "beat America" is to kill a few soldiers, and get the press in to take pictures. That mess is Clinton's fault with his no balls approach to conflicts.

The thing the boggles my mind the most is how some people here seem to know the "right" answer for the situation in Iraq, but have never even been there. I have 5 friends who have been or are currently deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. 2 are in the marines and 3 are in the army. From what they tell me, 95% of the people there are GRATEFULL and APPRECIATE us being there. Some of the stories I've heard are just amazing.

I was referring to the present conflict. The US has decided once again to back the wrong horse. I wouldn't blame it all on Clinton, a lot of the problems in northern Africa have their roots in the reagan administration. Perhaps you remember Iran-Contra? Whatever the case, the US has a regrettable history of giving money to the wrong side.

Are you aware that the bulk of Iraq's doctors, lawyers and other white collar workers are fleeing Iraq in droves? Most will probably never come back because the threat to their safety is too great. The only people in Iraq that are celebrating are the Kurds and the increasing threat of a Kurdish separatist movement is nothing to crow about.

It would be interesting to know where your 5 friends have been. Their claims may be valid but also may only be valid in a certain area or for a particular ethnic group. Don't believe all the spin buddy, just because you know someone who has been there doesn't mean squat.

[mactastic]

The last refuge of a scoundrel: When all else fails, blame Bill Clinton.

Who is going to have proved what when we end up leaving Iraq a bigger mess than we found it? Will it be ball-less George, who went in all pansy-style without enough troops, or will it be a collaboration of the liberals and the media who just didn't believe hard enough?

[saunders45]

It would be interesting to know where your 5 friends have been. Their claims may be valid but also may only be valid in a certain area or for a particular ethnic group. Don't believe all the spin buddy, just because you know someone who has been there doesn't mean squat.

Then who the hell do you believe? Some guy on an internet forum who read something bad about the situation from another internet site. For my % amount of people, it was my bad. I should have said MOST people instead of a number. I just hate seeing people talk about stuff where the know little to none of the real facts.
As far as where they've been, off the top of my head, Fulujaa, Baghdad and Najaff(sp?)are places I've been told of. I'm sure there are more locations, but alas, they can tell me so much.

[saunders45]

Are you aware that the bulk of Iraq's doctors, lawyers and other white collar workers are fleeing Iraq in droves?

Are you aware people are no longer being shot for wearing shorts, murdered en masse for speaking out against a fascist homicidal maniac, or tortured for losing a game of soccer?

[zimv20]

Are you aware people are no longer being shot for wearing shorts, murdered en masse for speaking out against a fascist homicidal maniac, or tortured for losing a game of soccer?
you are committing two logical fallacies:
1. that any evidence of improvement can be interpolated to mean improvement in greater areas, and
2. that the examples you draw up can substitute for the failure to achieve the greater goals as stated before the invasion.

[mactastic]

Are you aware people are no longer being shot for wearing shorts, murdered en masse for speaking out against a fascist homicidal maniac, or tortured for losing a game of soccer?
Now they're being shot for not wearing a beard, murdered en masse for being Sunni, and tortured for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Hell of an improvement, eh?

[saunders45]

Now they're being shot for not wearing a beard, murdered en masse for being Sunni, and tortured for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Hell of an improvement, eh?

Got proof?

[saunders45]

you are committing two logical fallacies:
1. that any evidence of improvement can be interpolated to mean improvement in greater areas, and
2. that the examples you draw up can substitute for the failure to achieve the greater goals as stated before the invasion.

You are making 2 stupid mistakes
1. Trying to use "big" words to make yourself sound like you know what you are the aurthority of the discussion at hand.
2. Talking alot, but not really saying anything....

I can play too...:rolleyes:

[mactastic]

Got proof?
Yes. Do you?

[zimv20]

You are making 2 stupid mistakes
1. Trying to use "big" words to make yourself sound like you know what you are the aurthority of the discussion at hand.
2. Talking alot, but not really saying anything....

I can play too...:rolleyes:
floccinaucinihilipilification is a big word. which is pretty much what i think of your discussion techniques.

[saunders45]

Yes. Do you?
Yes. Did your list of items happen before we got to Iraq?

[mactastic]

Yes. Did your list of items happen before we got to Iraq?
Nope.

[blackfox]

1. Trying to use "big" words to make yourself sound like you know what you are the aurthority of the discussion at hand.

Evidently, you still need some work with the "small" words.

zim's points re-stated for your consideration:

1. Are the anecodatal examples of improvement in Iraq (as relayed by your friends), likely to grow into a larger trend, or are they isolated examples, mitigated by context?

2. Are these same improvements likely to erase/overrule the results of previous US tactical and strategic mis-steps?

[saunders45]

floccinaucinihilipilification is a big word. which is pretty much what i think of your discussion techniques.

troll is a small word. which is pretty much what i think of your discussion techniques.

I'm not the one trying to discredit the accounts of those who have actually been there.

[blackfox]

I'm not the one trying to discredit the accounts of those who have actually been there.
There is such a thing as context.

Even if your friends experiences are indicative of larger trends/realities, that is hardly the whole picture.

Perhaps most Iraqis really like Americans, but that doesn't mean that the realities of chaos and explosions are any less of a problem.

I guess I just don't understand your point.

[mactastic]

I'm not the one trying to discredit the accounts of those who have actually been there.
What accounts? Would you care to provide some, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

Would you take my word on the matter?

[zimv20]

troll is a small word. which is pretty much what i think of your discussion techniques.
so -- you can't spell the big ones and don't understand the meanings of the small ones. plus, you don't know what a sample size is. sweet.

[IJ Reilly]

The last refuge of a scoundrel: When all else fails, blame Bill Clinton.

Hell, it's always worked before.

Somalia, what a wonderful example. I'm trying to remember the names of all the Republicans who were calling for increasing U.S. troop strength in Somalia after the "blackhawk down" incident. Seems I can only recall criticism coming from those quarters, of putting U.S. troops in harm's way, and how we shouldn't get ourselves involved with nation building. Why, you'd think putting U.S. troops in Somalia was Clinton's idea.

[aquajet]

Are you aware people are no longer being shot for wearing shorts...

The BBC has reported (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5020804.stm) otherwise. There was also a discussion in this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2460769#post2460769) thread about it. I'm still curious as to whether or not any Iraqis were murdered under Saddam's rein because someone wore shorts. Nobody could give me an answer. Do you know something the rest of us don't?

[Don't panic]

Does anyone think this will make any difference? Willprobably only serve to strenghthen these loons desire to kill more people.

I mean, if Bush were to choke on a pretzel and die, would that put this country back on the right track?

:eek: :eek: you DO know who will be in command, don't you?:eek: :eek:

Well since Bush has only actually been elected once he'll probably get another go.
well, given that it is possible (likely?) that he actually won zero elections before, we might get him 'till 2016

[saunders45]

There is such a thing as context.

Even if your friends experiences are indicative of larger trends/realities, that is hardly the whole picture.

Perhaps most Iraqis really like Americans, but that doesn't mean that the realities of chaos and explosions are any less of a problem.

I guess I just don't understand your point.

My point is that people are always more likely to believe "bad" news. People are more likely to believe what Geraldo has to say than what a random soldier who was actually there has to say.

[saunders45]

so -- you can't spell the big ones and don't understand the meanings of the small ones. plus, you don't know what a sample size is. sweet.

so-- you can't take sarcasm, and you have yet to refute the claims I have made. So let me make it simple. Do you believe that the claims of soldiers who have actually been in Iraq, unlike yourself (who is only taking the word of others in which you have no personal relationship), are uninformed lies, or do you believe that one would lie about a situation of being sent halfway across the world to fight for the freedom of someone they have never met?

[Dont Hurt Me]

2,500 dead Americans,18,000 wounded what more do we need to hear about this war that shouldnt have been in the first place? Bush took us into the hornets nest with the U.S. taxpayer getting the bill, and the middle & lower class get to send their kids there for Bush's WMDs. Yeah we killed one screwball after years, but still have another screwball running our country for 2 more long years.

[zimv20]

Do you believe that the claims of soldiers who have actually been in Iraq, [...] or do you believe that one would lie about a situation of being sent halfway across the world to fight for the freedom of someone they have never met?
you have misrepresented my position.

i don't know who your friends are, where they've been, what they've seen, about their predispositions, or if they've accurately represented what they've seen, or if you've correctly conveyed what they've seen (woefully low on details) or if they even exist.

and i'm supposed to suddenly believe -- against mountains of evidence -- that everything in iraq is going swimmingly? and fwiw, there are MANY accounts of those who are there which portray a nightmare. it's that bigger picture thing.

btw, look at what i quoted of you -- is that how you meant to phrase your question? it's not like they're mutually exclusive.

[zimv20]

shifting gears a bit... (link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/12/opinion/polls/main1703346.shtml))

Poll: Zarqawi Death Has Little Impact

The death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has done little to improve views of how things are going for the U.S. in Iraq or boost President Bush's approval ratings, a CBS News poll finds.

Mr. Bush has been cautious in his response to Zarqawi's killing by U.S. troops this week, calling it "a major blow to al Qaeda" but warning that it won't end the war "and it's certainly not going to end the violence."

Americans agree. Half think the level of violence in Iraq will be unchanged by Zarqawi's death, while 30 percent say it will actually lead to more attacks against U.S. forces. Just 16 percent think the number of attacks will decrease as a result of his death.

Sixty-one percent also say Zarqawi's death won't have any impact on the terrorist threat against the United States, while 22 percent it will increase that threat. Thirteen percent predict a decreased risk of terrorism.

Fifty-five percent of Americans still say the war in Iraq is going badly for the United States, while an overwhelming majority, 82 percent, describe the situation in Iraq as a civil war between Iraqis.

Still, the poll did find some signs that Americans are becoming more optimistic about Iraq — at least when looking at the long term. Sixty percent now say it's somewhat likely or very likely that the United States will ultimately find success in Iraq, a 5-point jump since last month.

More than half of Americans also say Iraq will eventually become a stable democracy, though it will take more than a year or two.

Zarqawi's killing hasn't helped President Bush with the public, either. His overall job approval rating remains just 33 percent — down slightly from 35 percent last month — while 60 percent disapprove.

(more)

[solvs]

That mess is Clinton's fault with his no balls approach to conflicts.
What about Kosovo? Maybe we left too early, but not one American soldier died. We didn't go in to nation build. We did what we could. You could say the same about GHWB and Desert Storm 1, but looking at our progress so far in Iraq, I'd say maybe Poppa Bush was right.

I have 5 friends who have been or are currently deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. 2 are in the marines and 3 are in the army. From what they tell me, 95% of the people there are GRATEFULL and APPRECIATE us being there. Some of the stories I've heard are just amazing.
I have friends there too. I've heard some good thing, but also some bad. Those who support it and those against seem to agree on one thing. What we're trying to do is good, but the way we're doing it is all wrong. Ask any of the returning soldiers running as Dems. Maybe we don't have a problem with the war(s) in general, just the horrible execution. Sending them in without enough equipment, poor planning, no exit strategy, reducing their benefits. Sure sounds like supporting the troops to me.

Oh and, ON TOPIC, I didn't really think it would help even though I hoped it would. Least it doesn't seem to be getting worse. Yet. Like I said, this is going to wind up hurting Bush because things haven't changed for the better like he and his administration made it seem like they should.