PSA: Check your fence, report stray dogs.

[atszyman]

Ok, I've been very tolerant of the dogs I usually see roaming around our neighborhood in the past and usually don't make anything of it. I've now changed my mind.

On Saturday a couple of Pit Bulls (could have been any breed, just happened to be Pits) wandered by my house and my fence didn't hold out. Now I've known that the fence wasn't in the best shape recently but was unaware of how bad it has gotten, since we hired someone to mow our lawn (a task I will resume next Summer since I will be out of Grad School). My dog either broke through or got dragged through the fence and got into a fight with the Pits. My wife heard the yelping and I went and checked. After a couple of neighbors showed up (one with a bat, I was armed with a Mag Lite) I managed to get one of the Pits off of my dogs throat and then the neighbors managed to separate my dog and the remaining Pit. Cops and Animal control came and took the Pits away.

Luckily no humans were injured. My dog is injured although thankfully should make a full recovery (a few stitches, one drainage tube, and some antibiotics). Nothing vital was hit although most of that is probably due to the fact that she is an Akita and has thick skin/fur which protected her.

I thank anyone for their sympathy for my dog but that is not the point of this thread so please let's not turn it into a pity thread. I have had plenty of support from family, neighbors, and friends and if you feel you must you can always PM me.

This could have just as easily been my wife or daughter in the back yard and thankfully we were home at the time or my dog would probably not be here. I just wanted to post to help people to remember to make sure that their fences are secure and that although the stray dogs you may see look harmless you never know what could happen. I don't want anyone else to have to deal with situations like this or worse.

[Dont Hurt Me]

To bad you didnt have a gun, I would have shot those dogs. Guess we need another law against aggresive breeds since people just wont to what they are suppose to. If you can find the owners they should get your vet bill.

[atszyman]

To bad you didnt have a gun, I would have shot those dogs. Guess we need another law against aggresive breeds since people just wont to what they are suppose to. If you can find the owners they should get your vet bill.

Trust me I'd love to get the vet bills back but the Pits had no collars/tags (although they didn't seem to aggressive towards humans or I'd probably be nursing some injuries of my own). I hope that we do get contacted should the owners ever decide to pick them up from Animal Control, although I'm not counting on it.

I don't think we need a law against any breeds (my dog would probably be considered an aggressive breed) but I think there need to be stiff fines/penalties for anyone who does not have their dog tagged, and especially if it gets loose, possibly higher fines based on breeds (a loose Chihuahua, can cause pain but is generally not too much of a threat).

I included the reminder for people to check their fences due to the fact that the loose dogs are out there and you cannot assume anything when it comes to the safety of your family. We are now contacting fence contractors to get a new fence put in ASAP. In the mean time I have gone and checked the rest of the fence and added supports to areas that need it.

[iGary]

I don't think we need a law against any breeds

I do, it's generally illegal to have deadly animals without a permit.

[ChrisBrightwell]

I do, it's generally illegal to have deadly animals without a permit.And where do you propose we draw such a subjective line? "Deadly animals" can apply literally to any breed or species.

[atszyman]

I do, it's generally illegal to have deadly animals without a permit.

Good point. I could see steeper licensing fees for larger breeds, possibly even periodic inspections to verify non-aggressiveness and containment (paid for by steeper licensing fees). Coupled with steep fines for anyone who had a dog at the last inspection that cannot provide proof of the dog's new location/owners.

I'm not against any sort of legislation on the issue but am not completely convinced it's necessary, but that may be showing too much faith in people.

[Doctor Q]

I just read a news story about 2 pit bulls that escaped from a yard with an unlocked gate and attacked a girl at the middle school across the street. Not the best place to have dangerous animals on the loose. :(

[Chundles]

It is illegal to import the following breeds into Australia (basically, you can't breed these types):

- American Pit Bull Terrier
- Dogo Argentino
- Filo Brasileiro
- Japanese Tosa

It was made legislation after many years of pit bull attacks - the pit bulls far outweighed any other breed by, well, a lot. Every bad dog attack story in the country makes it's way onto the news and I've not seen one that wasn't a pit bull. The dogs were destroyed and the owners slapped with fines and other penalties and the government banned the breeds deemed most at risk - ie, fighting dogs.

[thedude110]

Good point. I could see steeper licensing fees for larger breeds, possibly even periodic inspections to verify non-aggressiveness and containment (paid for by steeper licensing fees).

But as you imply aggressiveness isn't a stable thing -- if a dog gets cranky as it ages, then what? My dog, for example, used to be great with other dogs. As she's gotten older she's gotten more and more dog aggressive (which means we've needed to be more and more aggressive with discipline and avoidance).

The problem here is less with the dog and more with the owner. If anyone should have periodic inspections, it's those who mistreat -- or those who are simply thoughtless with/toward -- their pets.

[Timepass]

But as you imply aggressiveness isn't a stable thing -- if a dog gets cranky as it ages, then what? My dog, for example, used to be great with other dogs. As she's gotten older she's gotten more and more dog aggressive (which means we've needed to be more and more aggressive with discipline and avoidance).

The problem here is less with the dog and more with the owner. If anyone should have periodic inspections, it's those who mistreat -- or those who are simply thoughtless with/toward -- their pets.


yeah I agree it mostly the owerner fault. Yeah aggressive breads are more likely to attack but it still the owner.

And you cannt go just based on size because some dogs will get cought in there that are very genetal breeds but larger dogs and then you have mutts.

And example of a large breed that really one of the nice breeds are Labs. Yeah fairly large dogs well over 70lb. Our black lab is 75lb and is a small lab. they are big dogs but that is about it. If anything some one breaks into the house they are more likely to open the door for them and help them out than attack them.

I know from my own lab she a very nice hyper dog. Only time I ever seen her bite anything was when our beagle trys to steal some of her food and even then it only one quite snap that does not even break the skin. heck the only time I ever got bit by her was not because she was being agraist but it was because I had a slice of pizza in my hand with it by my side. Yeah she was going after the pizza and bit part of my finger and even then it only hurt and never broke the skin.
The only other times that ever involved pain was when I was on the couch and she got in the house and jump up on it. Her frount paw kind of landed in the place the sun dont shine. Yeah that one hurt a lot.

Labs over all are great dogs that are just like to know what going on and are very non agressive breeds. and there are quite a few large dogs that are very calm breeds.


it a very messy area to get involved in. Those I do agree dogs should be regiegster with the state and have tags on them. Not for safety but just so they know where dogs are and if there is an attack who to hold accountible for it.

[Leraste]

I too, had almost the same situation as you. My neighbor next door had an agressive german shepard, and they ALWAYS left their gate open. If we ever came home and saw their gate open we'd be scared to walk in our house. It was horrible, we'd have to run to the door, fumble with the keys and dart in. It even bit one of my neighbors and the paramedics had to come and treat him on the spot. One time the dog bit my dog's paw through our fence. We would always complain to them to please keep their gate shut and locked, but they would never care. So after that we'd call SEACCA everytime it was loose. And of course this dog wasn't registered/licensed or anything. So we'd just keep calling and complaing. I think they even had to pay for several tickets. Eventually they ended up hauling the dog away. I hated that bastard so much! :mad:

[atszyman]

...The problem here is less with the dog and more with the owner. If anyone should have periodic inspections, it's those who mistreat -- or those who are simply thoughtless with/toward -- their pets.

Well the inspection idea was more aimed at the owner than the dog. It's the owners responsibility to keep their dog contained, registered, and trained. Some people neglect these things, and some things will be forgotten by the good owners (like my fence, although I rarely make the same mistake twice). Periodic inspections would be one method of making sure that some of the more negligent owners are penalized and hopefully reduce the number of strays and chances of attack. Unfortunately the most negligent owners are the least likely to register their dogs so it would make it difficult to find the people who most need it.

I fully understand how dogs attitudes change with age. My dog used to be great with other dogs, in the past couple of years she hasn't been around a lot of other dogs so she has started to show some more aggressive tendencies, and I can't imagine that this incident will help that. Although given the condition of the two Pits she was definitely not very aggressive in this incident.

[ToddW]

personally i've had shepards, rots, and labs. with us the dogs were never agressive, just protective of us and our children. the main thing is to always show the dog whose boss, but give it a lot of love and attention. if you can't do that then you should own a cat. i do agree with restrictions on animals that are deemed overly agressive. sometimes you can't track down every owner and get them to do their job right and take care of their dog. it would be easier and safer just to ban those breeds. right now we have a corgie/lab mix and she is absoluetly great. after we let her know not to herd our son, everything was a o k. she is the most lovable dog, and lets our son crawl all over her. we even had some dogs that have gotten into the yard some how, and she kept them away from my wife and son. she did a great job. i'm typing this as she lays by my feet, i'm using her as a foot rest while i type :D

[thedude110]

Periodic inspections would be one method of making sure that some of the more negligent owners are penalized and hopefully reduce the number of strays and chances of attack.

The more I think about it, the more I think you have a pretty good idea. People who take on the responsibility of caring for the living should have some sort of accountability.

My fiancee is a vet., and in part I come around to your position based on her reaction to this thread. The woman says:

"I see so many dogs each week that are abused. By my definition of abuse, anyway. People will keep their sick dog at home right up until they see it can't breathe. Then it becomes my emergency and my job to magically cure it. And I totally understand that a lot of people don't have a lot of money. But I'm dealing with a dying animal and they're telling me things like it hasn't eaten in 3 days and it hasn't eaten without vomiting in a week. But they wait 'till it can't breathe to get a vet."

after we let her know not to herd our son

I nominate this for MR clause of the month!

We've broken our dog of so many bad habits, but we let her herd us all the time (and she's mostly greyhound, for god's sake). If she's around when we have a kid (she's 9 and kids are at least three years off ... according to "plan"), I'll have to work on that ...

[Mr. Anderson]

Dogs in Indiana are considered farm animals, so they can be left outside all the time. Some of the things I've seen here really disgust me, but there is nothing you can do about it. Quite sad actually.

And in our neighborhood, there are no fences - so we get the occasional dog, rabbit, deer, etc. in our lawns. My dog is only outside when we're walking her, so its not an issue, but several neighbor dogs are on an invisible fence and the do get out every once in a while.

Basically, I don't think there ever is going to be a solution to problem with dogs or other animals - its the same with guns. Its the people who are the problems and there are always going to be individuals who will mistreat them and fail to act responsibly - which ends up getting others hurt.

D

[FirePak]

I had a similiar situation a few days ago, I had 3 huge dogs just sitting in my front yard. Usually i wouldnt care but they were 2 rots and a pitbull like dog. One of the rots looked like he had been hit by a car and was very aggressive.

I called animal control waited on hold for about 30 mins to be told that it would be a few hours before someone could come out and that i needed to call the Animal EMT for the other dog as animal control wouldnt be able to take it.

I call the animal emt and he comes out about 40 mins later and only picks up the one dog leaves the other two eventhough they were aggressive to him. After about 2 hours i call again and try to get an update to be told its going to be another few hours. I had places i needed to be and i had my 4 month old nephew with me and i was seriously afraid to go out my front door.

I finnally ended up calling the police dept who came out in like 10 mins, One of the dogs started to rush the officer as he was trying to get out of his car. Animal control showed up promptly about 10 mins later to get both dogs.

[XNine]

Pits... The problem with them is that they have the tendency to snap at any time without provocation. Don't get me wrong, most of the time it's because of a bad owner, but pits are more likely to have a bad temperament then a golden retriever, or a lab, or even a great dane. I have a couple of friends who have pits and they show the dog who's boss, but treat them like they're big babies.

They always tell me "I'd hate to see someone get on her/his bad side." All I know is, is a pit can latch on to my arm, that's fine, but I WILL kill it. I don't understand how grown people get taken down by a dog. a pack of dogs, maybe, but ONE? Nah, sorry.

As for corgi's they're natural instinct is to herd, but once broken of this, they are great, great dogs with lots of personality (and they aren't aggressive, they just nip at the feet to corral). This actually might be my next dog since I have to leave George (golden retriever) with my ex when I move...

[atszyman]

...I don't understand how grown people get taken down by a dog. a pack of dogs, maybe, but ONE? Nah, sorry...

I agree there, but most people would go into panic mode if there were a dog attack, and of course you don't hear about 160+ lb. men being taken down it's usually the smaller/weaker people that are most severely injured. If you only weigh 110 lbs. it's going to be hard to take on an 80-120 lb. dog.

I'm probably going to be beating myself up for the next few weeks/months since I don't think I did enough to break up the fight earlier. I should have probably just taken out the Pits with my Mag Lite but I am not a violent person and bashing another living things skull in isn't an instinct that kicks in for me. And as heartless as it may sound my self preservation kicks in before saving my dog (my wife and daughter would be a different story) and I really did not want the Pits going after any human beings (myself included).

[Electro Funk]

I don't understand how grown people get taken down by a dog. a pack of dogs, maybe, but ONE? Nah, sorry.



i have a 145lb Rottweiler that could easily take down a 6" 200lb man...

trust me, he is very powerful! The thing is, i got him when he was 6 weeks old and worked with him every single day for 3 years.... he is now the most well behaved dog i know... in fact i get compliments all the time on how well behaved my "vicious" dog is... (he is 11 years old now)

Here in florida i got a renters ins. policy cancelled because they found out i had a rottie! if you own a G shepard, Akita, Pit, Rottie, or Chow there is not a company in florida that will write you a homeowners policy!

when i bought my new house the ins company was informed that my rottie is now a lab mix mutt :p (so they think anyway)

[iGary]

And where do you propose we draw such a subjective line? "Deadly animals" can apply literally to any breed or species.

When chihuahuas start mauling and disfiguring people.

[Electro Funk]

When chihuahuas start mauling and disfiguring people.

i think the most damage you will get from a chihuahau is a hickey!

HAAAAAA.... that remindes me, i have freind that was attacked by 2 jack russell terriers.... mauled his face up pretty good!

we made fun of him for weeks.... he swears he was bending down to pet the dogs and they both jumped up and started biting....

I think he was passed out on the floor drunk! :D

Edit: you a Rush fan iGary? just noticed your new location.... nice..... "We are the priests , of the temples of syrinx" Rush 2112.... AMAZING album

[Johnny Rico]

Guess we need another law against aggresive breeds since people just wont to what they are suppose to.
That's right, we need the government to put in place yet another rule that limits our freedom.. :confused:
Actually this sounds more like a clear cut case of the OP not maintaining his property (a dog just sort of "gets dragged through" the fence which admittedly "wasn't in the best shape recently"?!) and further compounding his lack of responsibility by not providing active defense (owning a gun, or even attempting to attack the attacking dogs before neighbors show up) when his passive defense (de fence hehe) failed.

This said, a pitbull can f*ck a person up, even if the dog is 'just playing'; I recently almost lost my index finger to one of the most friendly dogs I've ever known (a pit) because I had his tennis ball in the hand that the finger in question was attached to. On the other side of the coin, I've been bitten by my siamese cat during a catnip binge and had to go to the hospital. Doc said I could have died, or might have lost the hand if the infection had spread. Should siamese cats be banned as they are also a "dangerous breed"?

[stonyc]

Pits... I don't understand how grown people get taken down by a dog. a pack of dogs, maybe, but ONE? Nah, sorry...Pit Bulls can get up around 85-90 pounds. That may not seem like all that much, especially given a 200 pound man... but if my 85 pound chocolate lab decides that he wants to go sniff a girl dog's butt across the street, it's tough to stop him. Given the ferocity of pit bulls, and that their 85 pounds is packed into a significantly more compact frame... I could see how even a fully grown person would not only panic if attacked by one, but also how they might struggle to incapacitate or kill one even with a weapon, much less with their bare hands.

In the given case of Australia(?), it's easier to stop the proliferation of a species if you can ban their import into the country in the first place. In the U.S., such a ban or restriction on breeds like the pit bull would be extremely difficult to enforce... how many unregistered breeders and puppy mills are out there? As long as there are irresponsible owners, you'll have irresponsible and possibly dangerous dogs... pit bull, or no.

[iGary]

That's right, we need the government to put in place yet another rule that limits our freedom..

The minute you infringe upon my rights is where your freedom ends. Pit bulls are dangerous animals.

[XNine]

Pit Bulls can get up around 85-90 pounds. That may not seem like all that much, especially given a 200 pound man... but if my 85 pound chocolate lab decides that he wants to go sniff a girl dog's butt across the street, it's tough to stop him. Given the ferocity of pit bulls, and that their 85 pounds is packed into a significantly more compact frame... I could see how even a fully grown person would not only panic if attacked by one, but also how they might struggle to incapacitate or kill one even with a weapon, much less with their bare hands.

In the given case of Australia(?), it's easier to stop the proliferation of a species if you can ban their import into the country in the first place. In the U.S., such a ban or restriction on breeds like the pit bull would be extremely difficult to enforce... how many unregistered breeders and puppy mills are out there? As long as there are irresponsible owners, you'll have irresponsible and possibly dangerous dogs... pit bull, or no.


Well, my Golden is 108 lbs, and I'm not kidding. He's a heavy dog, and he's a big baby unless he sees his arch-nemesis walking in the complex or someone tries to enter the apartment. IT's funny how many people are scared of him (little kids LOVE him). but people just have to remember one thing. Dogs have one weapon, their mouth. Let them use it on your arm and then go for their throat. Sure, you'll hurt like hell but you'll kill the dog. Your life, or theirs. Just strikes me as strange is all. That people could be so fearful of a dog. I mean, we're not talking pit-mastif breeds that are designed to kill, we're talking your average pit, rottie, lab, whatever.

[stonyc]

When chihuahuas start mauling and disfiguring people.My parents had a miniature dachsund that 99.999% of the time was the perfect pet... except when around small children. He would literally chase them and in once case scratched a small girl in the face enough to make her bleed. She still has that scar to this day. I loved that dog, but after that incident we had to severely restrict his interaction with children. My wife never believed me until a few years ago, we took him out for a walk... she was holding the leash and a small girl walked up wanting to pet him. I took the leash from her and picked him up before the girl could get close enough to him, who was snarling and snapping in the girl's direction as I pulled him away.

Given the wrong place, wrong time... any animal can be dangerous.

[stonyc]

Dogs have one weapon, their mouth. Let them use it on your arm and then go for their throat. Sure, you'll hurt like hell but you'll kill the dog. Your life, or theirs. Just strikes me as strange is all. That people could be so fearful of a dog. I mean, we're not talking pit-mastif breeds that are designed to kill, we're talking your average pit, rottie, lab, whatever.Sure, but that takes forethought and knowing what to do in such a situation. Most people I would believe don't rehearse self-defense against dogs and wouldn't be prepared for that initial assault. Given enough time, sure... fight or flight, and once flight became difficult, fight would kick in. But sometimes, that can be too late for some people.

[iGary]

Given the wrong place, wrong time... any animal can be dangerous.

That's an isolated incident. When we see it happening over and over and over and over again (as with pit bulls), then we probably ought to think about the sanity of having an animal that is known to be aggressive and dangerous to humans around.

Sorry, but pit bulls are wired wrong somewhere - good owner or not.

[atszyman]

...Actually this sounds more like a clear cut case of the OP not maintaining his property (a dog just sort of "gets dragged through" the fence which admittedly "wasn't in the best shape recently"?!) and further compounding his lack of responsibility by not providing active defense (owning a gun, or even attempting to attack the attacking dogs before neighbors show up) when his passive defense (de fence hehe) failed.

This said, a pitbull can f*ck a person up, even if the dog is 'just playing';...

Wait a minute here. I'm not saying that there aren't things I should have done better, but the fact that there were 2 relatively healthy Pit Bulls running around my neighborhood with no collars or tags is not my fault. If my dog had broken through the fence and been elsewhere I would be blaming myself completely but my dog did not just "get" out the Pits were on my property.

I am kicking myself for not getting more involved in the fight earlier but there were 2 Pit Bulls and although I love my dog I'm not going to risk my life taking on 2 Pit Bulls without any backup. Even you admit that a Pit Bull can mess you up just "playing" and I've never seen these dogs before so how do I know they're not going to try to kill me?

[stonyc]

That's an isolated incident. When we see it happening over and over and over and over again (as with pit bulls), then we probably ought to think about the sanity of having an animal that is known to be aggressive and dangerous to humans around.

Sorry, but pit bulls are wired wrong somewhere - good owner or not.There are many breeds (like Terriers) that are listed as "not good with children"... should we ban all of those breeds, as well? Just look at any dog breed enthusiast site... I believe the AKC even recognizes which breeds make better family pets than others.

[iGary]

There are many breeds (like Terriers) that are listed as "not good with children"... should we ban all of those breeds, as well? Just look at any dog breed enthusiast site... I believe the AKC even recognizes which breeds make better family pets than others.

I think you would be hard pressed to find dozens of incidents where people were killed or permamnetly mauled by Terriers. Not so with Pit Bulls.

Look, I love animals, but I am not going to fall into this "its the owner" hype that dog lovers try and feed us all the time.

Type in Pit Bull Attack into Google...

[XNine]

Sure, but that takes forethought and knowing what to do in such a situation. Most people I would believe don't rehearse self-defense against dogs and wouldn't be prepared for that initial assault. Given enough time, sure... fight or flight, and once flight became difficult, fight would kick in. But sometimes, that can be too late for some people.

Very true. I've been in a fight with one dog in my life. It was one of my ex's who didn't like men. A little beagle. HE sat next to me one day and bit, I bit him back on the top of his head and he knew I was the guy.

I'm really good with dogs, perhaps that's why I'm not afraid of them?

Anyway, you're probably right, most people fear the "animal aggression" as opposed to thinking rationally about the situation. Adrenalin kicks in and most people want to run (which can be worse than standing your ground in some instances.)

[gekko513]

People who think Pit Bulls are just like any other breed of dogs are seriously in denial. They should be banned everywhere.

[cait-sith]

Making new laws won't help. Good owners won't let their dogs loose and bad owners will just ignore the laws. How could you enforce a fine against the owners of those dogs anyways? The dogs had no tags.

[stonyc]

I think you would be hard pressed to find dozens of incidents where people were killed or permamnetly mauled by Terriers. Not so with Pit Bulls.Pit bulls actually are not a breed in of themselves... they are in fact composed of a wide range of breeds including Terriers (eg. Staffordshire), Boxers, Bulldogs, etc.

Look, I love animals, but I am not going to fall into this "its the owner" hype that dog lovers try and feed us all the time.Neither am I.

People who think Pit Bulls are just like any other breed of dogs are seriously in denial. They should be banned everywhere.
The CDC in fact lists the "pit bull" as a "high risk" for biting. They also however list the Rottweiller and German Shepherd right up there with the "pit bull". Should we ban Rottweilers and German Shepherds too? How about we just ban all breeds that are in the Top 10 while we're at it.

While I recognize that certain breeds are statistically a higher risk to bite/maim/kill people it begs the question... why? Saying "just because" or "they're different" is not good enough for me. How are they different? Is it genetics? Do certain breeds suffer more abuse than others?

I would point people out to this study (the same that concluded "pit bulls", Rotts and German Shepherds as "high risk"): ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Publications/mmwr/wk/mm4621.pdf. Note:

Although some breeds were disproportionately represented in the fatal attacks described in this report, the representation of breeds changes over time (Table 1). As a result, targeting a specific breed may be unproductive; a more effective approach may be to target chronically irresponsible dog owners (9 ).
Though there may be some truth to the notion that certain breeds are more "dangerous" than others, irresponsible owners can exacerbate an already volatile situation. Similarly, responsible owners with proper training and socialization can have a positive effect on their dogs and their interaction with others. That said, I would be interested in a study that examined the bite statistics of dogs owned by perceived "responsible" owners. That would be telling in terms of fleshing out genetic differences between dog biting predisposition.

[iGary]

Pit bulls actually are not a breed in of themselves... they are in fact composed of a wide range of breeds including Terriers (eg. Staffordshire), Boxers, Bulldogs, etc.

Then neither are most purebreds are they - they all come froma mix of different animals.

While I recognize that certain breeds are statistically a higher risk to bite/maim/kill people it begs the question... why? Saying "just because" or "they're different" is not good enough for me. How are they different? Is it genetics? Do certain breeds suffer more abuse than others?

This is pretty much the same as guns don't kill people, people kill people argument, isn't it?

Look I respect your opinion and I am no more in favor of the government stepping in to take care of us as the next guy, but how many people have to get hurt, permanently mauled or killed before we figure out what is wrong with the breed? Why has the rst of the world decided that they are dangerous and done something about it while we sit and let people and people's pets get killed?

What exactly does one do to an animal to make it a killer - could I duplicate the results with a yellow lab?

[stonyc]

Then neither are most purebreds are they - they all come froma mix of different animals.Sorry, I should have said that pit bulls themselves are not an AKC recognized breed. Semantics, blah. :)

This is pretty much the same as guns don't kill people, people kill people argument, isn't it?I'm not sure, I'm willing to concede that some breeds are less "domesticable" and more potentially more volatile than other breeds. Additionally, there are certain people who should not have access to these breeds under any circumstances. But that doesn't mean we should disallow the right owner, under the right circumstances, to have the dog that they choose.

Look I respect your opinion and I am no more in favor of the government stepping in to take care of us as the next guy, but how many people have to get hurt, permanently mauled or killed before we figure out what is wrong with the breed? Why has the rst of the world decided that they are dangerous and done something about it while we sit and let people and people's pets get killed?I'm not sure that the rest of the world, as you say, has it right... they could. Maybe we should wipe our hands clean of pit bulls forever. But then, as someone else asked earlier, where do you draw the line? Do we get rid of Rotts? What about Doberman Pinschers? And German Shepherds?

Granted, pit bulls are at the top of the heap when it comes to risk of biting... but who's next after they're gone? Where do we stop?

What exactly does one do to an animal to make it a killer - could I duplicate the results with a yellow lab?Given the right motivation, yep. Subject any breed, even what's considered by many to be the most family and child-friendly breed out there (the Newfoundland), to enough abuse and neglect that it will become unstable and dangerous not only to other dogs but to people as well.

[mactastic]

The crux of the problem is that aggressive people are drawn to the breeds that are more easily turned into something harmful. IOW, the inherent problems in breeds that are deemed 'dangerous' are magnified by a bad owner, and mitigated by a responsible owner. There really isn't a one-size-fits-all solution here. Banning pit bulls won't solve the problem because the people who are drawn to pits right now will simply start breeding aggressive rots, or dobermans, or some other dog that has the ability to develop good fighting instincts.

That isn't to say that all problems can be solved with good owners, there will always be dogs that snap and have to be put down. But IMHO, far to many people get dogs without realizing that they are the ones who have to do most of the work, a dog is a piece of clay waiting to be molded by a dominant alpha. With careful attention and training, even the most dangerous breeds are loving family dogs, but even so you need to be responsible about keeping them.

I know dogs who are fine off-leash all the time, but I also know people who wish their dogs were fine off-leash so they just let them regardless of whether that dog has proven it's capable of handling it.

And this isn't even to get into the whole dog-wolf hybrid craziness...

[Timepass]

Well, my Golden is 108 lbs, and I'm not kidding. He's a heavy dog, and he's a big baby unless he sees his arch-nemesis walking in the complex or someone tries to enter the apartment. IT's funny how many people are scared of him (little kids LOVE him). but people just have to remember one thing. Dogs have one weapon, their mouth. Let them use it on your arm and then go for their throat. Sure, you'll hurt like hell but you'll kill the dog. Your life, or theirs. Just strikes me as strange is all. That people could be so fearful of a dog. I mean, we're not talking pit-mastif breeds that are designed to kill, we're talking your average pit, rottie, lab, whatever.

There is one problem what that plan. That is assuming they stay on your arm. A 75lb dog and easily take down a 200lb+ man. it all in the law of physic. First off most of the is going to be hozintal and they move the center of mass of the guy to far either dircition and the guy done for. I know they can jump hi enough to get a 6ft though. Chances are the first few hits are going to be in the arms but they are going to pull the person off balance at some point in time and when the person hit the ground it over.

You to rememeber dogs are faster than humans. Can run longer than humans. and are built to take you down.

Yeah I about 160 and my 75 lb lab has taken me down a few times. Few times I was in the back yard watching her and she comes running and runs into me. 75lb moving at that speed is going to take you down. The hit itself threw me off balance enough where my hands hit the ground. The proceeded by me getting her tring to lick me to death (she is a very loving dog). But by the my hand hit the ground and start pushing back up she had aldready jump on me and push me over on my side and start lickng me. Now she will let me up and I coudl jsut push her away she not going to fight back. Now if she was attacking I would of been on the ground at her level where she has a huge adatage over me. and she can keep me down there if she really wanted to.


Pit bulls dogs like that are stronger and faster than my realitily small lab. They can take a grown man down.

It all in the physcal and how the blows land. They are strong enough to pull a guy down.

[mactastic]

And make no mistake, an attacking dog isn't going to go for your arm -- it'll go for your throat, where one bite can kill you.

[m6747]

Good point. I could see steeper licensing fees for larger breeds, possibly even periodic inspections to verify non-aggressiveness and containment (paid for by steeper licensing fees).
So you think a lab is a big problem? Seriously alot of big dogs are nicer than smaller ones. I see your point about big dogs can do more harm but this wouldn't be fair for large dog owners with a lab, golden retiriver, etc.

[Leareth]

I have met a number of the aggressive breeds who were extremely well behaved and gentle as a kitten as well I have met friendly breed individual whos were the meanest most vicious dogs I have ever seen. My cousin used to train army sentry dogs and while they are aggressive like hell I would not be afraid of one walking down my street, their training is very specific.
One of the frou frou girls in my neighbourhood had one of those purse chihuahuas, the dog kept biting her fingers, just little pinpricks till she got a severe infection and nearly lost her hand, as it stands she is missing three of her fingernails permanentely ( i guess no more $300 manicures). So even a little tiny dog can be dangerous.

I have read in a medical journal that the reason pitbull,dobermans, rotties and the other various agressive breeds are so agressive is in part due to their tail and ear being docked and cropped thereby limiting their ability to communicate very well in subtle changes.

I have also read that more people die each year from deer attacks than from all other wild animal and domenstic dog attacks combined, does that mean I should shoot every deer that comes in my backyard cause its dangeours ?

And damnit dog owner if you are in an area with lots of people,children and other dogs put your animal on a leash even if it is a off leash area.
and clean up the dog poop.

[gekko513]

I have also read that more people die each year from deer attacks than from all other wild animal and domenstic dog attacks combined, does that mean I should shoot every deer that comes in my backyard cause its dangeours ?
You sure that wasn't car accidents with a deer involved?

I've heard similar stories about the elk being the most dangerous animal in Norway, but that's because of the car accidents caused by people driving too carelessly in elk territory. It hardly makes the elk an aggressive animal.

[mactastic]

Yeah, few things are more infuriating than watching someone stand there pretending not to notice that their dog is taking a crap on someone's lawn.

[Leareth]

You sure that wasn't car accidents with a deer involved?

nope this is where the bucks attack stupid hunters who cover themselves with deer lure, or who keep making deer calls when the deer is behind them.
It kind of funny the number of people who come into the ER during hunting season with bloody scalps and brusied backs from deer attacks.

Now moose attack would not be funny, neither is the shot bird that falls on other hunters head and gives him a concussion or worse breaks neck .

One more dog story : I was once cornered by a pitbull that was trained as a guard dog, who got out of yard, no collar/ID/chip and was DEAF !, how is the owner suppossed to call the dog off? I was not the first incident where the dog was too aggressive to people so the pound took him away and put him down.

[atszyman]

So you think a lab is a big problem? Seriously alot of big dogs are nicer than smaller ones. I see your point about big dogs can do more harm but this wouldn't be fair for large dog owners with a lab, golden retiriver, etc.

I'm still not absolutely certain that legislation is necessary.

I had originally intended this thread to be a reminder to dog owners to check whatever they use to keep their dog contained to make sure that it is secure and that the "old stray" that you see wandering the neighborhood may not be so harmless.

There were a number of things that could have been done to avoid what happened to my dog. I could've checked the fence a day/week/month ago and realized that re-enforcement was needed, but my dog never even tries to get out (unless a stray happens to wander by, and usually then there is a lot of pacing and barking before anyone tries to go under the fence). One of the neighbors who stopped said the Pits were camped under the tree in her yard and she didn't call Animal Control since they seemed harmless.

That doesn't even begin to start on the original owner for the Pits, who I doubt will ever be found due to the lack of tags and collars.

It drives me nuts to think that I could've so easily done something that would have prevented this from happening so I thought I would try to help others on the forum to remember that things like this can happen and to check the things in their control so that they do not have to go through what my family and dog have.

[mactastic]

FWIW, I did a perimeter check of my dog's fence yesterday. Thankfully, all is well as his fence is now anchored securely to the ground by the grass growing up around it. It's actually more secure now than it was when I put it up 18 months ago.

Actually my big worry where I am is that my dog will tangle with a pack of coyotes. His fence is 6' tall though, so I'm pretty confident that a 'yote isn't going to try to get over that unless they're real hungry -- and since there are plenty of rabbits and squirrels running around, I doubt the 'yotes are starving right now. My other concern would be a mountain lion... but there's little I could do to stop a big cat.

[gekko513]

I'm not an expert on Pit Bulls, but the reason I've read and heard from several media sources over the years as to why I think they should be banned all over the world, is that it's well enough documented that Pit Bulls that are treated normally and are otherwise well-behaved, can snap out of the blue and attack other dogs, people or even their own owners, and that this happens much more often than with other dog breeds.

Even the apparently pro Pit Bull article on wikipedia on the breed states that fatalities by Pit Bull attacks are 4 times more frequent than by the next race, Rottweilers. Then they proceed to downplay the importance of that statistic. :rolleyes:

[mactastic]

Even the apparently pro Pit Bull article on wikipedia on the breed states that fatalities by Pit Bull attacks are 4 times more frequent than by the next race, Rottweilers. Then they proceed to downplay the importance of that statistic. :rolleyes:
First, I'm not claiming that pit bulls are not more prone to "snapping" than other dogs; but before we accept the claim that pits are 4 times more likely to attack than the next nearest breed, we need to remove the owner variable from the equation. As I've stated before, people who intentionally seek out the so-called "dangerous" dogs are far more likely to be irresponsible in raising and keeping these dogs. Thus, by that fact alone you would expect to see a greater number of these dogs involved in attacks, would you not?

People seeking a dog to guard their meth lab aren't going to go get a poodle now, are they?

[cait-sith]

We can make all the laws we want, the problematic owners will just ignore them. Perhaps making stiffer penalties for owners might help -- if your dog assaults someone, you are liable for assault and could go to prison. Then again, some places have very stiff penalities for crimes yet they are still committed all the time.

But I still don't understand this "If we outlaw one thing, we're going to outlaw everything!" attitude. Why does everything have to be so absolute? It really boils down to where personal freedom and personal responsibility collide. I don't think anyone has the freedom to hurt anyone else, directly or through gross negligence.

[jaysmith]

breeds aren't the problem, its the aggresive owners who are at fault. i know a lady who breeds pit bulls, about 10 of them, and they're the best dogs i've ever known. the only dog i've ever been bitten by was a dachsund, and my god it hurt. went through my jens and right into my calf. but you can't stay mad at something so small, even when it charging towards you in a foot and a half worth of rage.

[Leraste]

There are many breeds (like Terriers) that are listed as "not good with children"... should we ban all of those breeds, as well? Just look at any dog breed enthusiast site... I believe the AKC even recognizes which breeds make better family pets than others.

That must explain why my Miniature Schnauzers let adults pet them when I walk them, but growl and try to attack little kids who come up to them.