Beach deaths in Palestine caused by Hamas [Archive]

Dont Hurt Me

Jun 13, 2006, 07:57 AM

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 07:58 AM

Thought this would be interesting, Unlike the Palestinians who lob rockets hoping to kill anyone, or the suicide bombers again who target anyone near the Israelis go after military targets not civilians. Turns out Hamas planted these mines then covered it up and tries to blame Israel. So this little girls family was killed by mines planted by Hamas!http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/index.html

When are you going to realize that Israel is really no better - this report is from the ISRAELI MIILITARY,

Oh wait, they're not Muslim. :rolleyes:

Dont Hurt Me

Jun 13, 2006, 08:00 AM

Like I said you dont see the Israelis walking into shops blowing up innocents, you do see the palestinians doing that along with the rockets attacks. One is a terrorist action, the other is a measured military response focused at the attackers, not just whoever. Thats the difference.

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 08:11 AM

Like I said you dont see the Israelis walking into shops blowing up innocents.

You obviously do not know much about Zionists.

freeny

Jun 13, 2006, 08:25 AM

skunk

Jun 13, 2006, 08:32 AM

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 08:35 AM

Just read this myself. It will now be a he said she said issue. I will probably side with the Israel story as opposed to the Hamas story judging from their pasts. But it certainly is not out of the question that the Hamas story could be true. I really hope Isreal is not responsible cause this would change allot of peoples perception of them. This seems to be exactly the kind of thing Hamas would pull to give them reason for more suicide killings.:confused:

What do you mean by this iGary?

Meaning that when the Zionists came to "take back the holy land," the utilized terrorist acts just as bad or worse (think King David Hotel) in the past, and heck, even in the recent past, Israel has been know to hardly flinch at destroying settlers homes, dropping bombs on civilian areas...I'm not saying Israel is bad as the suicide bombers, but I am saying they share blame in the whole mess, and can't blame Hamas for being PO'd.

freeny

Jun 13, 2006, 08:36 AM

Hamas have plenty of legitimate reasons to attack Israel.
I understand this, but we are talking about this event in particular. Who to believe?

skunk

Jun 13, 2006, 08:42 AM

I understand this, but we are talking about this event in particular. Who to believe?I'm reserving judgment until more facts are in. You'd have thought landmines would have been cleared from a public beach, and there's one Israeli shell not accounted for. Firing artillery into a residential area in peacetime is a bit strong, though, isn't it?

Dont Hurt Me

Jun 13, 2006, 08:49 AM

From what I understand Hamas is throwing rockets into Israel, Israel goes after the rockets sending commandos to this beach. After leaving Hamas mines the beach hoping to get them next time only they dont tell anyone? Hey its a sunny day lets go to the beach and the rest is history.

Israel became a nation in 48, thats over 50 yrs ago, how far back into time do we want to go in deciding who is right and wrong?

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 08:54 AM

Israel became a nation in 48, thats over 50 yrs ago, how far back into time do we want to go in deciding who is right and wrong?

No need to go back that far - Israel was sending missles into civilian areas as little as a year ago.

Dont Hurt Me

Jun 13, 2006, 08:58 AM

No need to go back that far - Israel was sending missles into civilian areas as little as a year ago.Again you miss the fact that these were counter attacks aimed at Hamas's rocket throwers not just sending a missile anywhere it may fall. There is a big difference. Ill say it again, one is going after military and terrorist targets in response, the other is just killing anyone it can. Do you grasp that?

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 09:00 AM

Again you miss the fact that these were counter attacks aimed at Hamas's rocket throwers not just sending a missile anywhere it may fall. There is a big difference. Ill say it again, one is going after military and terrorist targets in response, the other is just killing anyone it can. Do you grasp that?

Again you missed the part where I said they were lobbing bombs into civilian areas, not military targets.

OK, can you even begin to see that Israel is not always the innocent little victim? If you can't, it's not even worth discussing further.

Dont Hurt Me

Jun 13, 2006, 09:03 AM

If Hamas launches attacks from a civilian neighborhood does that mean Israel isnt allowed to respond?

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 09:09 AM

If Hamas launches attacks from a civilian neighborhood does that mean Israel isnt allowed to respond?

Not with a 500-pound bomb that wipes out half the neighborhood, no.

I have no love loss for people that strap on packs of C4 and take bus rides, but I have no love loss for Israel, either.

Dont Hurt Me

Jun 13, 2006, 09:15 AM

Not with a 500-pound bomb that wipes out half the neighborhood, no.

I have no love loss for people that strap on packs of C4 and take bus rides, but I have no love loss for Israel, either.We almost agree there, I feel the same only stronger against those murdering anyone they can.

freeny

Jun 13, 2006, 09:15 AM

I'm reserving judgment until more facts are in. You'd have thought landmines would have been cleared from a public beach, and there's one Israeli shell not accounted for. Firing artillery into a residential area in peacetime is a bit strong, though, isn't it?
From what I read 5 shells are accounted for and the other shell was fired well before this incident happened.

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 09:18 AM

We almost agree there, I feel the same only stronger against those murdering anyone they can.

Good enough for me. :)

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 09:31 AM

By IBRAHIM BARZAK
The Associated Press
Tuesday, June 13, 2006; 8:29 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- An Israeli airstrike targeting a key figure in Palestinian rocket attacks killed 10 people Tuesday, including the militant, two children and three medical workers who rushed to the scene of an initial blast.

With our money and weapons, mind.

dogbone

Jun 13, 2006, 10:38 AM

...but I am saying they [Israel] share blame in the whole mess, and can't blame Hamas for being PO'd.

"The whole mess"?. How do they share the blame, because "the whole mess" really began in 1948 when the Jews and the Arabs were each offered their own state. Let me say that again...they were both offered their own state. The Jews accepted, the Arabs rejected this in favour of war. They hoped they could have it all. This is really the beginning of "the whole mess" and I wonder if you'd be kind enough to explain how Israel must share in the blame of the Arabs rejecting their own state in favour of war.

dogbone

Jun 13, 2006, 10:43 AM

No need to go back that far - Israel was sending missles into civilian areas as little as a year ago.

Civillian areas is where the Palestinian millitants like to hide. It serves their purposes when their civillians are killed. Witness the strike yesterday when a truckoad full of Katyushka rockets was hit. Some civillians were killed in the ensuing stike. Now what are civillians doing anywhere near such a highly volatile and legitimate military target?

The problem iGary, is that there will be peace when the Palestinians love their own children more than they hate the Israelis.

mactastic

Jun 13, 2006, 10:45 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre That's a start.

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 10:56 AM

Civillian areas is where the Palestinian millitants like to hide. It serves their purposes when their civillians are killed. Witness the strike yesterday when a truckoad full of Katyushka rockets was hit. Some civillians were killed in the ensuing stike. Now what are civillians doing anywhere near such a highly volatile and legitimate military target?

The problem iGary, is that there will be peace when the Palestinians love their own children more than they hate the Israelis.

For your reading pleasure... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing)

skunk

Jun 13, 2006, 11:30 AM

"The whole mess"?. How do they share the blame, because "the whole mess" really began in 1948 when the Jews and the Arabs were each offered their own state. Let me say that again...they were both offered their own state. The Jews accepted, the Arabs rejected this in favour of war. They hoped they could have it all. This is really the beginning of "the whole mess" and I wonder if you'd be kind enough to explain how Israel must share in the blame of the Arabs rejecting their own state in favour of war.Why were the Jews offered Arab land in the first place? Why should the Arabs have accepted this deal?

freeny

Jun 13, 2006, 12:04 PM

And some more good reads...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Founding_of_the_State_of_Israel:_At_Issue_in_History

dogbone

Jun 13, 2006, 04:06 PM

Why were the Jews offered Arab land in the first place? Why should the Arabs have accepted this deal?

Sorry, whose land? Shall we go through the entire history of the world checking who conquored whom? That you can only keep coming back to this chestnut shows how there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Remember I was answering the assertion that the Jews were to blame for "the whole mess", when in fact it is a disaster originating entirely from Arab intransigence.

blackfox

Jun 13, 2006, 04:23 PM

Sorry, whose land? Shall we go through the entire history of the world checking who conquored whom? That you can only keep coming back to this chestnut shows how there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
What?

This is quite an ironic post.

At the time of Israel's creation, demographically and historically (in terms of most recent 500 years), Palestine was an Arab country. An Arab country promised statehood (as an entirety) by the West, before it was chosen as a potential homeland for the Jews.

Like it or not, this is a relevant fact to the ongoing problem. I am not saying that the Palestinian position has been, or is particularily pragmatic, but it is understandable.

So is the Israeli position, as modern-day Israelis had little to do with any of that - and act out of security concerns - sometimes poorly.

mactastic

Jun 13, 2006, 04:28 PM

Remember I was answering the assertion that the Jews were to blame for "the whole mess", when in fact it is a disaster originating entirely from Arab intransigence.
I don't see that assertion made anywhere. I see where you are putting words into iGary's mouth. His statement about 'the whole mess' makes no mention of the Jews being to blame for it.

Provide the relevant quote, or try again.

dogbone

Jun 13, 2006, 10:12 PM

I don't see that assertion made anywhere. I see where you are putting words into iGary's mouth. His statement about 'the whole mess' makes no mention of the Jews being to blame for it.

Provide the relevant quote, or try again.

...but I am saying they share blame in the whole mess...

Who did he mean by "they"?

iGary

Jun 13, 2006, 10:17 PM

Who did he mean by "they"?

How do you get "the Jews are to blame" out of "they share the blame?"

dogbone

Jun 13, 2006, 10:20 PM

What?
...An Arab country promised statehood (as an entirety) by the West...

But it wasn't. That was an Arab misinterpretation. BTW how did the Arabs come to "own" the land?

dogbone

Jun 13, 2006, 10:25 PM

How do you get "the Jews are to blame" out of "they share the blame?"

Well they obviously are to blame for the bit they "share". The tit for tat responses can go on ad nauseam. Who, was there first, all the way back to the neanderthals. The Jews and the Arabs have conquored the land at various times.

The point I'm making, if you wish to apportion "blame", is that we can draw a line under the previous 3,000 years at the time when both the Palestinians and the Jews were offered their own state. The Jews accepted, The Arabs rejected this in favour of war. So at this crucial juncture in history, the Arabs are entirely to blame. And while the Jews are not blameless in the many sub battles since, all the sub battles stem from this Arab decision to *reject* their own state. Notice what happened to the Arab Israelis who did not leave Israel when the Arabs declared war. They are full citizens living in a democracy with the best standard of living in the Middle East (not including the despots and their rellies of course).

iGary

Jun 14, 2006, 06:54 AM

The Jews accepted, The Arabs rejected this in favour of war. So at this crucial juncture in history, the Arabs are entirely to blame.

So would you agree to live side by side with people who machine-gunned your relatives and blew up your hotels with explosives?

dogbone

Jun 14, 2006, 07:01 AM

So would you agree to live side by side with people who machine-gunned your relatives and blew up your hotels with explosives?

You really should try your hand on the Guardian Talk, (http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@964.ybBbk2tMrdV.2@.77505cc2/0) where you would feel right at home.

iGary

Jun 14, 2006, 07:06 AM

You really should try your hand on the Guardian Talk, (http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@964.ybBbk2tMrdV.2@.77505cc2/0) where you would feel right at home.

Why?

I'm willing to look at BOTH sides objectively and agree that the Palestinians AND the Israelis have BOTH done their share to agitate the situation throughout history. That makes me an anti-semite I guess. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

We'll never agree. While I do agree that the Palestinians are certainly more ruthless in their methods, and certainly don't condone their methods, the Israelis are certainly not passive in this situation. Period.

dogbone

Jun 14, 2006, 07:20 AM

Why?

That makes me an anti-semite I guess. Gotcha. :rolleyes:

If you say so Gazza.
As I said, GU talk, you'd be right at home.

iGary

Jun 14, 2006, 07:22 AM

If you say so Gazza.
As I said, GU talk, you'd be right at home.

Well since you have decided not to counter with anything useful, I guess we're done on this issue. Cheers.

Peterkro

Jun 14, 2006, 07:26 AM

The reality is the people who lived in Palestine have always been Arabs including those referred to as Jews.The origins of Israel are very tacky indeed other ideas for a Zionist state included parts of South America and Africa.I condemn the violence on both sides the difference being the Palestinians are fighting a occupying army and Israel is trying to extent greater Israel.To imagine that firing (US supplied) missiles into congested areas of innocent civilians is somehow better than strapping explosives onto yourself and walking into a hotel is ludicrous in the extreme.Don't get the idea I'm condemming all Israeli's it's the (US financed) state that is the problem.

I'm obviously not referring to the recent(last 50 years) immigrants to Israel as Arabs.

Allan be praised.

dogbone

Jun 14, 2006, 07:28 AM

Well since you have decided not to counter with anything useful, I guess we're done on this issue. Cheers.

With the sort of comment you made I already know that there is no hope of discussing anything with you, which is why I suggested the GU International forum. Really, I'm not being sarcastic, you would love it there.

dogbone

Jun 14, 2006, 07:30 AM

...Palestinians are fighting a occupying army...

...why go round in circles? How did Palestine get to be occupied? Wasn't because of a war that the Arabs started and lost by any chance?

iGary

Jun 14, 2006, 07:34 AM

With the sort of comment you made I already know that there is no hope of discussing anything with you, which is why I suggested the GU International forum. Really, I'm not being sarcastic, you would love it there.

Look, I do not want this to escalate into some name-calling flame war. What sort of comment did I make that was so ludicrous? Seriously, I want to know.

eva01

Jun 14, 2006, 07:35 AM

Look, I do not want this to escalate into some name-calling flame war. What sort of comment did I make that was so ludicrous? Seriously, I want to know.

none dogbone is just being his/her usual self. Its not you. s/he is just angry at the world

Peterkro

Jun 14, 2006, 07:37 AM

...why go round in circles? How did Palestine get to be occupied? Wasn't because of a war that the Arabs started and lost by any chance?

I suggest you read some of the history of the area,the Brits must shoulder a lot of blame for what's happening at the moment.Occupied peoples will always resist the occupier,the Irish have been doing it for 700 years and continue to do so,the fact that the Israeli state has crushed resistance many times is neither here nor there the resistance will go on.

FFTT

Jun 14, 2006, 08:01 AM

I'm just SO sick and tired of hearing about this endless feud.

Both side need to freeking GET OVER IT and try somehow to let their children live without violence.

Just imagine if the American Indians were continuously pulling terror attacks
because of what we did to them.

I'm really sick of it.

Anyone from EITHER side that breaks the peace should go to prison period.

skunk

Jun 14, 2006, 08:59 AM

Just imagine if the American Indians were continuously pulling terror attacks because of what we did to them.Your attempts at genocide were more effective than the Israelis'.
Anyone from EITHER side that breaks the peace should go to prison period.So the Palestinians should just finally accept that they're shafted for good, should they? It's not like John Bolton is going to stand up for them.

FFTT

Jun 14, 2006, 09:14 AM

Of course the first settlers coming across the big pond considered
the native Americans as nothing more than savages with no rights to anything.

How convenient.

Nothing in this world is fair or perfect, so IMHO these waring factions need to
go with what they do have and try to make it work.

mactastic

Jun 14, 2006, 11:36 AM

Who did he mean by "they"?
What did he mean by "share"? :rolleyes:

dogbone

Jun 15, 2006, 10:21 PM

What did he mean by "share"? :rolleyes:

I guess he meant "equally responsible for". Now that I've answered that perhaps I could repeat post #20..."I wonder if you'd be kind enough to explain how Israel must share in the blame of the Arabs rejecting their own state in favour of war."

Mal

Jun 15, 2006, 10:55 PM

iGary, what are you getting at with the King David Hotel bombing thing? Sure, it was a militant Israeli attack: on the British forces occupying Palestine. Read through what you posted, they avoided civilian casualties at all cost, even going so far as to call the hotel and warn them to evacuate, and detonating a warning blast in the street to keep passersby from being hurt. It was nothing like the attacks the Palestinians have made on the Jews. The Israelites aren't blameless, but they also weren't the ones who set up the state of Israel. That was the British and USA, along with a few other countries, who decided it was such a bright idea, and I think that in the end it was a good decision, just poorly thought through.

jW

FFTT

Jun 15, 2006, 11:22 PM

I heard today that both sides have decided to reinstate the cease fire.

Maybe, just maybe they've decided that continued violence is not the answer.

Ugg

Jun 16, 2006, 12:13 AM

Well they obviously are to blame for the bit they "share". The tit for tat responses can go on ad nauseam. Who, was there first, all the way back to the neanderthals. The Jews and the Arabs have conquored the land at various times.

But in all reality, there is no such thing as jews or arabs if we go back far enough in time. In other words, fratricide is being committed all in the name of some supposed "gods" that were invented by some very unstable people.

The land was stolen from the Palestinians in order to assuage western guilt about the west's treatment of the jews. The jews came in and acted like the boorish westerners they were and totally ignored the rightful claims of the Palestinians to the land. The treatment has continued ever since and until the European jews are willing to recognize the injustice they've been committing, there's little hope for peace. What's more, demographics means there's little hope for the long term survival of the the jewish state unless Israel engages in full scale genocide. Something that has been advocated by many Israelis leaders.

solvs

Jun 16, 2006, 02:17 AM

Anyone else think it's ironic that they're fighting over holy land?

dogbone

Jun 16, 2006, 02:20 AM

But in all reality, there is no such thing as jews or arabs if we go back far enough in time

er thanks for that. In reality there is no matter at all, only a disturbance in an energy field.

freeny

Jun 16, 2006, 09:01 AM

I heard today that both sides have decided to reinstate the cease fire.

Maybe, just maybe they've decided that continued violence is not the answer.
But sparatic violence and Flare-ups is:) :rolleyes:

FFTT

Jun 16, 2006, 09:07 AM

Yeah maybe we should ship in massive quantities of Preparation H :D

disconap

Jun 17, 2006, 01:20 AM

Thought this would be interesting, Unlike the Palestinians who lob rockets hoping to kill anyone, or the suicide bombers again who target anyone near, the Israelis go after military targets not civilians. Turns out Hamas planted these mines then covered it up and tries to blame Israel. So this little girls family was killed by mines planted by Hamas!http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/index.html

Let me preface this by saying A) yes, I am a Jew and B) with exception to the decisions of the last couple years, I have in my life been VERY anti-Israel in regards to the military and political moves they have made.

However, this makes sense. I saw the footage of the bombing coverage, and one thing really got to me that nobody seemed to notice: the little girl who ran across the beach crying to the body of her father, they claimed that she (fully clothed and dry) came out of the water. So A) she either dries quickly, or B) it was a planned shot long AFTER the explosion occurred. Either way the concept is revolting; using a little girl whose family was killed to gain PR points by staging her reaction OR allowing her to run up to the dead body of her father. Why the hell didn't someone stop her? Help her in some way? There were plenty of press there...

So yeah, that whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth, and I personally immediately thought it was foul play from radicals on one side or the other, to re-ignite the violence. Glad to see that it's being questioned.

SC68Cal

Jun 17, 2006, 01:34 AM

iGary, I think your opinion and views are correct, and put my immense fame and reputation behind your statements ;)

I look at that mess and think to myself, it's become such a bad situation that neither side is clean. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians are covered in eachother's blood.

Anyone else think it's ironic that they're fighting over holy land?

I do.

I think the only way that whole area will be pacified is if a 3rd party comes in and beats the hell out of everyone, like the Romans did, or alternatively both sides nuke eachother, leaving nobody left alive to continue the feud.

dogbone

Jun 17, 2006, 01:39 AM

I saw the footage of the bombing coverage, and one thing really got to me that nobody seemed to notice...

Faked footage is an industry in Palestine, in fact it's sometimes known as Pallywood. Remember Mohammed al-Dura.

disconap

Jun 17, 2006, 03:13 AM

Very true. I guess it just bothered me that the US press never really looked at it, they just took it at face value. I mean, I'm just some guy, you know? And I saw something suspect...

dogbone

Jun 17, 2006, 03:21 AM

But we must not get too distracted by the argy-bargy. Truth is that it will be some time, if ever that we know what really happened. But even if it was an Israeli shell the thing is that it would have been an accident in response to shelling by Hamas militants. In war accidents happen. Hell, the US even shot down a UK fighter during the early days in Iraq.