Burned by Windows!

[Chrispy]

Here is a fun story to accompany the thread on Windows being less secure than OSX. I have to admit I was trying to stick up for windows a bit in that thread, but after my experience last night I change my position completely. Granted, my incident was experienced with Windows 2000 SP2, but I am still tainted from windows again now for it.

I obtained a free older Dell Latitude from my office to give to my mother (the screen actually fell off her old laptop). The computer works fine (however it is 2 inches thick haha!) and all I had to do was load an OS. I decided to put Win 2k on it since it is a little older and only has a 6GB Hard Drive. So... I get Windows all loaded up and I installed my network drivers. I plugged in my network cable and immediately headed to the windows update site to obtain SP4 so I could install Norton Anti-virus....

Then it happened! Within 10 seconds of having the cable plugged in I got a spyware popup window GRRRR! I didn't even have time to get the computer updated so I could load my security software and the system already had problems. I then updated the computer and tried running Sypbot and Adaware but neither could get rid of the problem. The computer just got worse as time progressed and I ended up having to whipe it clean and get ready to start over again. The sad part is I was even behind a hardware firewall :mad:

The lesson learned here... Windows security is horrible when you don't have the updates installed. However, it is kind of hard to install updates when you have to be connected to the internet to do so. I now stand on the OSX side of the fence 100%. Grr to Windows!

[bbrosemer]

Wow that says alot who doesnt love windows... also just incase anyone was wondering that article that the Anti-Viral/Spyware Company puts out shows that a PC unproteced by Anti-Viral software is o so high after only a mere hour of use.

[Copland]

Ugh...
I'm so glad I don't personally have to deal with that! Macs just work. There's so much to worry about on Windows. Macs just work.

[stefan15]

Just to let you know, it is literally impossible to get "spyware" by plugging in a network cable to a computer that has a fresh Windows install. I contribute 100% of your problems to user error. I don't have spyware on my Windows machine, I've never had spyware, and I don't use anti-spyware. True enough, Internet Explorer doesn't do a good job of blocking "bad" websites... but in case you can't surf discriminantly, you can always use Firefox.

Oh, and there's nothing "sad" about spyware not being blocked by a hardware firewall. Most aren't supposed to block spyware. Some block common viruses, most block internet-based attacks.

I understand that OSX is better than Windows. But you've learned how to use OSX.. have you ever considered that you might have to LEARN how to use Windows?

[realityisterror]

FWIW, if you have the patience to muck around on Microsoft's website, you can download SP4, burn it to a CD, and install it offline.
However, as it is a Service Pack, they might just have an "Express Installer" that "only downloads what you need"... :rolleyes:

[zap2]

Just to let you know, it is literally impossible to get "spyware" by plugging in a network cable to a computer that has a fresh Windows install. I contribute 100% of your problems to user error. I don't have spyware on my Windows machine, I've never had spyware, and I don't use anti-spyware. True enough, Internet Explorer doesn't do a good job of blocking "bad" websites... but in case you can't surf discriminantly, you can always use Firefox.

Oh, and there's nothing "sad" about spyware not being blocked by a hardware firewall. Most aren't supposed to block spyware. Some block common viruses, most block internet-based attacks.

I understand that OSX is better than Windows. But you've learned how to use OSX.. have you ever considered that you might have to LEARN how to use Windows?


I think your missing the point, how would get get FF if he can't even upgrade his SP? It it sad that an OS can't stand alone for a few mintutes with out 3rd party help. And as for your "I never had any problems, it must be you" statment, well i could use that same logic on all people who have a MacBook/MBP saying my family has not had any problems, so it must be the owners fault, but would that make it true? No

Also he did not have time to "learn how to use Windows" as it crapped on him so fast.(Also he knew what to do, but he did not have enough time to do it, so for all we know he might be on of the best Windows user ever.)

[bbrosemer]

Just to let you know, it is literally impossible to get "spyware" by plugging in a network cable to a computer that has a fresh Windows install. I contribute 100% of your problems to user error. I don't have spyware on my Windows machine, I've never had spyware, and I don't use anti-spyware. True enough, Internet Explorer doesn't do a good job of blocking "bad" websites... but in case you can't surf discriminantly, you can always use Firefox.

Oh, and there's nothing "sad" about spyware not being blocked by a hardware firewall. Most aren't supposed to block spyware. Some block common viruses, most block internet-based attacks.

I understand that OSX is better than Windows. But you've learned how to use OSX.. have you ever considered that you might have to LEARN how to use Windows?I KNOW windows I KNOW that there are tons of people that have spyware and dont know that they have it, for all you know you could have some unless your PF is less then 120 on Boot you have some crap running that shouldnt be its that simple. XP protects you from nothing and allows anything to come up on boot.

[Copland]

it is literally impossible to get "spyware" by plugging in a network cable to a computer that has a fresh Windows install.

What if my server has a virus/spyware that is lurking around on the network, and I plug my machine in? Then it would have a virus.

Also, there was some study done (I forget what/when, but it was recently) that showed the average computer connected to the internet will become infected in some small amount of time like 10 minutes.

EDIT: Here's one. There's a truck load of these:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2004-11-29-honeypot_x.htm

[AndyR]

I had this in my last job. We built a laptop for a customer which wasn't going on the corporate lan and they would only use dialup internet access out in the wild. We didn't have the AV ready burn't to a CD so I decided to dial up and download it. This was a clean install on XP Pro prior to service packs.

Within no less than 30secs of it connecting to the web we had a popup via the messenger service. We left the laptop on then for a joke for 2 hrs on dialup then took it of the web and checked it over. Without doing ANYTHING but leaving it there we ended up with 50+ popups and 5 viruses (can't remember names as it was 3 years ago).

So glad I use macs now.

[plinden]

I've never had spyware, and I don't use anti-spyware.
How do you know you don't have spyware if you don't use anti-spyware?

Anyway, I mostly agree with you but I'm not going to accuse the OP of being stupid ... I don't know the circumstances he was working under. But perhaps Windows 2000 SP2 is less secure?

I've done several pre-SP1 XP installs, protected only by a NAT router, and have never had a machine infected - which I confirmed by later installing anti-virus and anti-spyware programs. I did have FF and some other favourite programs burned to a CD so I only connected to the internet for Windows updates.

It got to the stage on my last Windows PC where I felt safe enough to disable automatic checking and just scanned the machine a couple of times a month, or less, when I remembered about it.

I don't have to worry about that now though, since I switched.

[Chrispy]

Just to let you know, it is literally impossible to get "spyware" by plugging in a network cable to a computer that has a fresh Windows install. I contribute 100% of your problems to user error.

Sorry but you are dead wrong on that one. If the network has any type of spyware floating around in it all it does take is being plugged in. I worked as a technical support agent at my college for years hooking people's computers to the campus network. Some students would literally plug in their computers and within less than a min have a virus or spyware.. and NOT have ever even opened IE or any browser. The campus now uses clean access to try to control this issue. It is not user error but simply windows being swiss cheese with security.

[Chrispy]

I understand that OSX is better than Windows. But you've learned how to use OSX.. have you ever considered that you might have to LEARN how to use Windows?

Oh, and I have been using Windows for over 10 years. I have used every windows from 95/NT4 up to XP x64 edition. I also worked in the tech industry for 5 years thank you very much.

[miniConvert]

Are you sure it wasn't just Messenger Service spam or something? The Messenger Service can be easily shut off. I used to have a dedicated server that constantly received them about getting Diplomas, lol. Very annoying, but easy to fix.

[Chrispy]

Are you sure it wasn't just Messenger Service spam or something? The Messenger Service can be easily shut off. I used to have a dedicated server that constantly received them about getting Diplomas, lol. Very annoying, but easy to fix.

It started with the Messenger Service which I did finally disable. However, by the time SP4 was downloaded more spyware had found its way onto the computer :( I really didn't feel safe having my mother using the machine at this point for making puchases online and whatnot.

[miniConvert]

Oh dear :( I must say, I've never had a Windows machine infected with anything, ever, since Windows 95 when I had the CIH virus - but that was only because I should've known better. Oh well, such is life (and Windows)! :D

[Chrispy]

I have had great luck with XP SP2 and XP x64. Every time I run a computer with that I don't have any trouble. But when I have installed XP pre SP1 or Win 2K it seems the problems surface. Lesson here I guess is run SP2 or x64 haha. I have the Vista Beta 2 on a DVD right next to me here. I will play with that later this week :)

[sushi]

Sorry but you are dead wrong on that one. If the network has any type of spyware floating around in it all it does take is being plugged in.
Exactly.

Just the act of plugging in the Ethernet cable causes the computer to attempt communication with the network. This simple act can result in a virus, trojan or worm infection.

The poster mentioned that he was using Windows 2000. While not perfect, Windows XP SP2 is much more secure/protected if you will than Windows 2000.

Notice I state Windows XP SP2. Windows XP has major problems. I had a friend who experience exactly what the fellow with Windows 2000 experienced. He loaded XP and then went to get the update. He has FTTH so you are talking 5-10 seconds to DL the update. In the time it took him to log onto Microsoft's web site and then DL the SP2 update he would be infected. And he was behind a NAT router!

So I saved his butt with a CD with Windows XP including SP2.

In my case I brought an infected Windows computer home to work on it and installed it on my Network. At the time I had about 15 Macs and 1 PC networked. I forgot about the PC. In less than a minute my PC was infected. Needless to say this was a self induced error but nonetheless it shows just how quickly and easily Windows virus, trojan and worms can move from computer to computer within a network without using IE, or any program for that matter. Just the presence of an infected Windows computer on the network is enough to cause problems for other Windows computers.

[Timepass]

With all the updates installed Windows is pretty safe to run and most of the major problems attack unpatch systems. A lot of the complaints about windows is people complaining about an unpatch computer.

You have to remember XP SP1 and SP2 windows 2000 are about 3+ years old right now so all the fixes since then are open holes and easy to attack. mix that in with people dont maintain there system with simple updates there are a ton of computers out there just sending that crap all over the net.

What sucks is install that stuff you have to install it starting at a time before M$ started getting there act together about secuerity and the dealing with the internet.

But like other said the best idea is to just find the updates and download and install them yourself. M$ will mail you for free an update cd. I did that for an XP sp2 because when I reformated or just installing it on other computer it was a lot easier not to have to connect to the net and deal with an unpatch system out there and hoping not to get hit. Bring it up to about a year old and after the point where M$ started really getting there act together.

That and always being had another hardware firewall where if there are any other computers on that network I control them and I know they are safe.

[stefan15]

How do you know you don't have spyware if you don't use anti-spyware?

I don't use realtime scanning but do scan every once in a while. Either way that's not what I meant. You can see everthing loading on startup in msconfig, services.msc, and you can always check system tasks for any odd processes. When you get spyware it's pretty obvious.

As for things that "lurk in networks", that would more than likely be a virus instead of spyware. In which case, you need to use an antivirus on Windows XP. But now you are talking viruses, and he's talking spyware. It's not mystery that viruses are a threat to Windows.

How do you get spyware? Not from visiting Windows Update...

[stefan15]

I have had great luck with XP SP2 and XP x64. Every time I run a computer with that I don't have any trouble. But when I have installed XP pre SP1 or Win 2K it seems the problems surface. Lesson here I guess is run SP2 or x64 haha. I have the Vista Beta 2 on a DVD right next to me here. I will play with that later this week :)

Oh and to be fair, I use x64 as well... much more secure, and it's written from a 64-bit of Windows Server 2003. So I might be a bit biased.

I agree with whoever comment on burning the service packs before hand as well. They are necessary.

[Chrispy]

Spyware can travel through networks just as viruses can. My guess is another computer in the house (probably my dads) had spyware on it and that is how it ended up on the Win 2K computer so quickly. I never even got a chance to run a virus scan on the computer so who knows what else is on that thing.

I love Win XP x64 edition. I NEVER had one single problem running that OS. It was fast, stable and virus/spyware free.

EDIT: Oh I just downloaded SP4 at work and burned it to a disc. That should help :)

[Timepass]

I don't use realtime scanning but do scan every once in a while. Either way that's not what I meant. You can see everthing loading on startup in msconfig, services.msc, and you can always check system tasks for any odd processes. When you get spyware it's pretty obvious.

As for things that "lurk in networks", that would more than likely be a virus instead of spyware. In which case, you need to use an antivirus on Windows XP. But now you are talking viruses, and he's talking spyware. It's not mystery that viruses are a threat to Windows.

How do you get spyware? Not from visiting Windows Update...

Umm you cant see everything that starts in from msconfig, or services.msc. Not everythign is going to be shown there. There are lots of things that had hide in the regesity that not going to be there. I wish I knew what program I used a while ago to get a full list of thing that where on on the start up list and I could remove them there as well. It was all in the registry keys.

Just figure I tell you

[benthewraith]

Spyware can travel through networks just as viruses can. My guess is another computer in the house (probably my dads) had spyware on it and that is how it ended up on the Win 2K computer so quickly. I never even got a chance to run a virus scan on the computer so who knows what else is on that thing.

I love Win XP x64 edition. I NEVER had one single problem running that OS. It was fast, stable and virus/spyware free.

EDIT: Oh I just downloaded SP4 at work and burned it to a disc. That should help :)

Or it simply might have been a Windows Messaging vulnerability and not spyware.

[Chrispy]

Or it simply might have been a Windows Messaging vulnerability and not spyware.

That would be nice but I still feel better starting over and loading SP4 first. You can never be too safe :)

[thegreatluke]

Just to let you know, it is literally impossible to get "spyware" by plugging in a network cable to a computer that has a fresh Windows install. I contribute 100% of your problems to user error. I don't have spyware on my Windows machine, I've never had spyware, and I don't use anti-spyware. True enough, Internet Explorer doesn't do a good job of blocking "bad" websites... but in case you can't surf discriminantly, you can always use Firefox.

Oh, and there's nothing "sad" about spyware not being blocked by a hardware firewall. Most aren't supposed to block spyware. Some block common viruses, most block internet-based attacks.

I understand that OSX is better than Windows. But you've learned how to use OSX.. have you ever considered that you might have to LEARN how to use Windows?
Um, not to be rude but... how do you know you've never gotten spyware?

It's not like a screen pops up saying "Hi, I'm SpyCenter 2000 and I'm here to track your web habits!"

They're all hidden somewhere.

Edit: Never mind. Ignore me. :)

[kevin.rivers]

For the "How do you know you don't have spyware if you don't use anti spyware" comment.

I sure hope you are running anti-spyware on your mac if that is the case.

Anyhow, symptoms of spyware are pretty evident. It is hard NOT to know you have it.

I have never had the problem the OP experienced. I would say it was user error. Even if this spyware is "floating around" the network, knowing that why would you hook it up to the net?

On the school network comment. If you plug a computer that has not been taken care of to a network. Naturally once the connection to the net is active whatever spyware resides in the system will pop up.

I really don't think a computer that has been freshly formatted will experience the symptoms of spyware. There is no way for code not on the computer to barge in and execute. You need code to execute a browser command, it does not work with magic.

[Chrispy]

Ok, I installed SP4 from CD BEFORE connecting to the internet and all is well this time :)

[wako]

Oh, and I have been using Windows for over 10 years. I have used every windows from 95/NT4 up to XP x64 edition. I also worked in the tech industry for 5 years thank you very much.



Obviously you learned very little from those 10 years...


When you do a fresh install of Windows that isnt the most current SP, I always turn off the services that the newer SP turned off or on. Thats probably the main reason why you got jacked so quickly. But atleast within the 10 years you were smart enough to try to first update! :D

[Electro Funk]

Anyhow, symptoms of spyware are pretty evident. It is hard NOT to know you have it.


Are you kidding????

if you are serious about claiming you have not had spyware programs on your windows box for the last five years without antivirus or spyware software (adaware/spybot/defender...etc) i will give you all the money in my checking account tomorrow....

i have several spyware programs on my fiances dell who never visits any shady sites and EVERYTIME i run adaware & spybot together (usually once a week) i find at least 2-6 SWPGs EVERY WEEEK and delete them....


So tell me all of the VERY EVIDENT symptems of spyware that you are so well informed of.... :rolleyes: there are many keyloggers and spyware that will NEVER make themselves apparent to the user....

furthermore, adaware will pop up , but spyware will not.... unless you are using software to find it....

[dmw007]

Nice review of your Windows using experience. Reminds me of some of the reasons I switched to Mac. :)

[Chrispy]

Obviously you learned very little from those 10 years...


When you do a fresh install of Windows that isnt the most current SP, I always turn off the services that the newer SP turned off or on. Thats probably the main reason why you got jacked so quickly. But atleast within the 10 years you were smart enough to try to first update! :D

This is very true. The sad part is I used to do this at work. I simply got lazy with this computer and hoped to get everything loaded quickly... I underestimated just how quickly it would get taken over. Now I know haha :)

[ezekielrage_99]

Welcome to the world of Windows..... got to love it :D

[bbrosemer]

Some schools install a "AV" package without students knowing onto their computers in college. I had this very same experiece, so it is very possible to just plug in and get something put onto your computer, however they did not install this software onto the Macs on campus, anyway the program was eating up system resources so I took it off my computer and left a modifed version of the program up and running so that the school wouldnt reinstall it, and it only then ended up eatin 100k where as before it was easily using 40 MB's.

[Chrispy]

Campus networks are a pain. When I was in college, we had to use Cisco Clean Access Agent to get on the internet. It was a HUGE pain as you had to download updates all the time and you HAD to run a certain version of norton corporate edition. Even worse, they required you to use a Cisco VPN Client that was configured for clean access for wireless access. However, they never bothered to configure it for macs. For my last 2 years there, mac users could not use the wireless network because the University felt they were "unsafe to the network". Dumb

[kevin.rivers]

Are you kidding????

if you are serious about claiming you have not had spyware programs on your windows box for the last five years without antivirus or spyware software (adaware/spybot/defender...etc) i will give you all the money in my checking account tomorrow....

i have several spyware programs on my fiances dell who never visits any shady sites and EVERYTIME i run adaware & spybot together (usually once a week) i find at least 2-6 SWPGs EVERY WEEEK and delete them....


So tell me all of the VERY EVIDENT symptems of spyware that you are so well informed of.... :rolleyes: there are many keyloggers and spyware that will NEVER make themselves apparent to the user....

furthermore, adaware will pop up , but spyware will not.... unless you are using software to find it....

If the your intelligence level is in anyway linked to the amount of money in your checking acount I will pass on your offer. Thanks though.

[stefan15]

if you are serious about claiming you have not had spyware programs on your windows box for the last five years without antivirus or spyware software (adaware/spybot/defender...etc) i will give you all the money in my checking account tomorrow....

So.. paypal work for you?


i have several spyware programs on my fiances dell who never visits any shady sites and EVERYTIME i run adaware & spybot together (usually once a week) i find at least 2-6 SWPGs EVERY WEEEK and delete them....


It doesn't just float onto your computer.. you sure it isn't the same one every time that you are failing to delete, or actually the result of going to a "shady" website or downloading a "shady" program? OR, maybe stop hitting "yes" to every box that pops up, that helps too.