Israel threatens Palestine for kidnapping

[Dont Hurt Me]

CNN reports http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/27/israel.soldier/index.html Israel threatens action over Hamas tunneling under a wall, killing a couple of soldiers then kidnapping one and taking him back. Hamas,PLO,Palestine , whatever these people are calling themself these days they are asking for it. Israel says it will not make compromises with terror. Getting ready to send in the tanks.

[Qoxiivi]

Israel says it will not make compromises with terror.

Israel has never compromised with regards to terror...

[thedude110]

Two bridges bombed.

Power plant bombed.

Troops entering Gaza.

Link. (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/27/israel.soldier/index.html)

How many deaths are enough, I wonder.

[Peterkro]

Israel has never compromised with regards to terror...

Except when it's practising it of course (maybe that's what you mean).As noted ^^^ this looks serious.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I cant blame Israel , they have shown tolerance in the upmost. The palestinians hate Israel more then they love their kids or their kids future I have concluded meaning Palestine will allways be what it is. A terror state going nowhere making sure poverty follows for all its people. Live by the sword.........

[iGary]

I cant blame Israel , they have shown tolerance in the upmost. The palestinians hate Israel more then they love their kids or their kids future I have concluded meaning Palestine will allways be what it is. A terror state going nowhere making sure poverty follows for all its people. Live by the sword.........

You still believe this? :rolleyes:

[XNine]

I'm sick about hearing this. Why don't we clear everyone out and just nuke the whole ****ing area? If they want to squabble like a bunch of brats, then we'll take their toy away from both of them.

[killuminati]

You still believe this? :rolleyes:

You don't? :confused:

[Sayhey]

CNN reports http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/27/israel.soldier/index.html Israel threatens action over Hamas tunneling under a wall, killing a couple of soldiers then kidnapping one and taking him back. Hamas,PLO,Palestine , whatever these people are calling themself these days they are asking for it. Israel says it will not make compromises with terror. Getting ready to send in the tanks.

When the Israelis send rockets into crowded areas and know it will kill innocents they are talk of in terms of "limited response" but when Palestinians target military targets they are "terrorists"? Don't get me wrong, I hope the Israeli soldier is freed, but the double standard here is appalling. I'm afraid it has become a case of, in some people's eyes, the Israelis can do no wrong and the Palestinians always are wrong.

[mactastic]

Israel threatens action over Hamas tunneling under a wall, killing a couple of soldiers then kidnapping one and taking him back.
Wait, if the US had tunneled under a wall, killed a couple of Iraqi insurgents, and took one prisoner, would you call them terrorists? Would you say the military action was illegal?

How is this anything other than a military action?

[iGary]

You don't? :confused:

No, I don't.

[skunk]

I'm sick about hearing this. Why don't we clear everyone out and just nuke the whole ****ing area? If they want to squabble like a bunch of brats, then we'll take their toy away from both of them.Have you forgotten to take your tablets again?

[jelloshotsrule]

I'm sick about hearing this. Why don't we clear everyone out and just nuke the whole ****ing area? If they want to squabble like a bunch of brats, then we'll take their toy away from both of them.

i don't remember when "we" gave them the toy to begin with...

[iGary]

i don't remember when "we" gave them the toy to begin with...

Oh, we give them plenty of toys each year.

[jelloshotsrule]

Oh, we give them plenty of toys each year.

i guess i took the toy to be the land.

and i'd say we certainly give many more toys to israel, of course...

[iGary]

i guess i took the toy to be the land.

and i'd say we certainly give many more toys to israel, of course...

Of course, they are the good guys. :rolleyes:

[Dont Hurt Me]

Wait, if the US had tunneled under a wall, killed a couple of Iraqi insurgents, and took one prisoner, would you call them terrorists? Would you say the military action was illegal?

How is this anything other than a military action?It most likely is, maybe they should just have a open war and get it over? As long as Palestinian's are doing these kinds of things Israel will have to respond in kind. Lets face it Palestine has been at war with Israel since 1948. I think Israel has had enough, just go bomb the sh.. out of em like we did Saddam. Seems to be the only thing these guys understand. Im sure we will have to resort to the same thing in Iran. Give em a choice of the stick and carrot they seem to love that stick.

[Sayhey]

It most likely is, maybe they should just have a open war and get it over? As long as Palestinian's are doing these kinds of things Israel will have to respond in kind. Lets face it Palestine has been at war with Israel since 1948. I think Israel has had enough, just go bomb the sh.. out of em like we did Saddam. Seems to be the only thing these guys understand. Im sure we will have to resort to the same thing in Iran. Give em a choice of the stick and carrot they seem to love that stick.

And the Americans should have stood in lines to be mowed down by British regiments at Concord and Lexington. What makes you think guerrilla war tactics equate to "terrorism"? And I'm sure it is just some crazy fault in the Palestinian character that makes them choose war over acquiescence to occupation. I'm sure you would accept the reality of occupation of the US and refuse to help in any attempt to throw the occupiers out after a couple of generations. Damn fools can't just get over the fact they have no right to a homeland of there own! DHM, take a step back and look at what you are asking millions of Palestinians to do.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Press just reported that Israelis F15 war planes just flew over the Syrian presidents home. Hamas has to stop the terror acts and recognize Israel, Israel isnt going to just sit around and let these guys do whatever they want with Syria's help. Will Hamas ever figure out they can have more, have better lives for themself and their children without the terror acts? Or continue the terror and watch yourself get bombed. Its a easy choice. I am for a palestinian state, but keep it up and they will have nothing except a lot of dead and no state,no future.

[iGary]

Press just reported that Israelis F15 war planes just flew over the Syrian presidents home. Hamas has to stop the terror acts and recognize Israel, Israel isnt going to just sit around and let these guys do whatever they want with Syria's help. Will Hamas ever figure out they can have more, have better lives for themself and their children without the terror acts? Or continue the terror and watch yourself get bombed. Its a easy choice.

Oh, so you're for Israel violating other country's airspaces just for the whoop of it?

You're for a Palestinian State, as long as they lay down and do whatever they're told.

[mactastic]

As long as Palestinian's are doing these kinds of things Israel will have to respond in kind.
And there are people just like you urging the Palestinians on by saying that as long as Israelis are doing these kinds of things, Palestinians will have to respond in kind.

That sort of eye-for-an-eye BS is what keeps this conflict going.

Although I do agree with you that Hamas should recognize Israel and stop calling for it's destruction. But that would take an act of political will equal to GWB declaring that he recognizes al-Qaeda as a legitimate political entity, and you KNOW that ain't gonna happen.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Nope but you have to look at the current event, They dug a tunnel and killed two soldiers and kidnapped a soldier. This is suppose to be Israels fault? How do you spin it like that? responding to igary

[Sayhey]

Press just reported that Israelis F15 war planes just flew over the Syrian presidents home. Hamas has to stop the terror acts and recognize Israel, Israel isnt going to just sit around and let these guys do whatever they want with Syria's help. Will Hamas ever figure out they can have more, have better lives for themself and their children without the terror acts? Or continue the terror and watch yourself get bombed. Its a easy choice. I am for a palestinian state, but keep it up and they will have nothing except a lot of dead and no state,no future.

Do you applaud the possibility of an escalation of this to a wider regional war? How can such tactics be helpful? Is the Israelis' fly-by an illegal act of aggression or are the Israelis exempt from international law? DHM, take a look at what you are accepting in the name of "fighting terrorism."

[XNine]

i don't remember when "we" gave them the toy to begin with...

Does it matter? I mean, let's face it, when you have two kids arguing over a toy, what do you do? You take it from both of them. Problem solved. It's really the same thing here. Both of them believe this place to be holy land for THEIR religion. So they fight over it.

Religion is the worst thing that man could make up. It's nothing but finger pointing and BS.

Since neither of them will recognize peace, either we tell them both to ****, or tell them both to really go at it and fight each other. Whoever wins, get the land. Enough with this back and forth, he said she said crap. Cut the foreplay and get on with it already. It's been over 50 years now (well, really over 2000).

[Dont Hurt Me]

Do you applaud the possibility of an escalation of this to a wider regional war? How can such tactics be helpful? Is the Israelis' fly-by an illegal act of aggression or are the Israelis exempt from international law? DHM, take a look at what you are accepting in the name of "fighting terrorism."
War is never a good thing but sometimes you have to beat it into someones head before the light goes on. Saddam was one example and we all know about the years and years of terrorist attacks on innocent civilians in Israel. Iam amazed at the restraint shown because if lil old me was in charge I would bomb them back into the stone age, grab more land and then make it clear next time it will be worse. Enough is enough, If Hamas and Syria want war then lets give it to em only this time I wouldnt give back one inch of land. Thats what they get for being a-holes and starting all this crap again after electing Hamas.

[iGary]

Nope but you have to look at the current event, They dug a tunnel and killed two soldiers and kidnapped a soldier. This is suppose to be Israels fault? How do you spin it like that? responding to igary

Right - these tanks and operatives were about to roll into Palestine.

Look, DHM, I don't think anyone here condones walking onto Israeli busses with backpacks full of nails and C4, or kidnapping people, but you really have to be able to look at this objectively.

This tit for tat reactionary BS that the Israelis and Palestinians have been doing for decades is just crazy. They call cease fires, and then Israel taunts and prods the Palestinians by restricting their movements, raiding their houses and blowing up settlements. Then the Palestinians get pissed and blow up a bus. You have to remember that Israel has done their share of "terrorism" over the years...they are not nice, innocent little kids - they have their own agenda, too.

And Israel is just as unwilling to recognize Hamas and Palestine as the Palestinians are to recognize Israel.

I just hate it when people try to make Israel look like this poor innocent little country, when the fact is they are one of the more heavily armed small countries in the world, thanks to our tax dollars - almost $4 billion a year.

I mean what's up with Israel just flying into it's neighbor's airspace violating International law, and what good does it do to blow up half the Palestinian infrastructure instead of making targeted attacks at militant outposts? It just smacks of revenge versus real justice.

It'd be a step in the right direction if you could just step back and see that Israel is an agressor, too.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I agree with a lot you said iGary but Syria is clearly helping Hamas. Dont they have a leader in exile living in Syria but calling the shots? I think that was what the Syrian flyby was all about. News is saying Syria fired missiles at the F15s but F15s arent easy to get:D Maybe the world should sit back and let em fight it out? I dont like war but Israel is surrounded by extreme Islam and I would dare say will allways be getting attacked by shoe bombers,car bombers,suicide bombers, etc etc. Dont you reach a point where you say F this lets go kill those bastards? I think Israel maybe there.

[nbs2]

Before this debate goes any further, I was wondering if we could define our terms. I feel like we are talking past each other here. It looks like the essential element is the most confused - what is the state of relations between Israel and Palestine?

For my part, I say they are two nations at a state of war (since they share the terristory, I'll call it a civil war). I suppose others might say that Israel is at war with a terrorist organization, others say that it is a war between two states, others say that it is not war but rather general violence. If that can get cleared up, we might get beyond the basic he said she said arguments...

Being at war with each other, I believe that this action was fully justified. Like Gary, this is far removed from blowing up a bus full of civilians. This is a very justifiable war tactic. Whether or not I approve of the war is irrelevant - people at war are people at war. This may be the moment that Israel most dreads...giving the moral high ground back to Palestine (and Hamas). I mean, how many Palestinian soldiers do they claim to get their hands on on a daily basis...

[mactastic]

I mean, let's face it, when you have two kids arguing over a toy, what do you do? You take it from both of them. Problem solved. It's really the same thing here. Both of them believe this place to be holy land for THEIR religion. So they fight over it.
Problem is, these aren't two kids fighting. And we're not the adult.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I would guess now that Israel has flown over Assads home that Syria might try to do the same? That would be interesting for sure. Anyone know what the Syrians are flying these days?

[Uma888]

Right - these tanks and operatives were about to roll into Palestine.

Look, DHM, I don't think anyone here condones walking onto Israeli busses with backpacks full of nails and C4, or kidnapping people, but you really have to be able to look at this objectively.

This tit for tat reactionary BS that the Israelis and Palestinians have been doing for decades is just crazy. They call cease fires, and then Israel taunts and prods the Palestinians by restricting their movements, raiding their houses and blowing up settlements. Then the Palestinians get pissed and blow up a bus. You have to remember that Israel has done their share of "terrorism" over the years...they are not nice, innocent little kids - they have their own agenda, too.

And Israel is just as unwilling to recognize Hamas and Palestine as the Palestinians are to recognize Israel.

I just hate it when people try to make Israel look like this poor innocent little country, when the fact is they are one of the more heavily armed small countries in the world, thanks to our tax dollars - almost $4 billion a year.

I mean what's up with Israel just flying into it's neighbor's airspace violating International law, and what good does it do to blow up half the Palestinian infrastructure instead of making targeted attacks at militant outposts? It just smacks of revenge versus real justice.

It'd be a step in the right direction if you could just step back and see that Israel is an agressor, too.

Im glad we have a grown up round here

[satty]

...
I just hate it when people try to make Israel look like this poor innocent little country, when the fact is they are one of the more heavily armed small countries in the world, thanks to our tax dollars - almost $4 billion a year.
...

I can't believe how much crap people write here, so I want to add something to the good bits here (Thanks iGary for the good bits).

There's only one country in the whole region that would loose in case of peace: Israel. Therefore I can't see them ever accepting peace.

Why?

In case of peace the western supporters would reduce and finally more or less stop the financial, economic and military support to Israel, which is - as iGary pointed out - huge for such a small country.

Without such support also the immigration of jewish people from even poorer nations, i.e. former eastern block, would cease. Additional there is a demographic problem: The birth rate of arabic/muslim people in the area is much higher than the one of jewish people. This is a more serious threat for the existance of Israel than a war.

There are a couple of things in place to avoid this problem: The seperation of jewish and arabic/muslim population in form of a wall and laws, i.e. arabic people are not allowed to move to their husbands or wifes, if they are not only on Israel territory, but also have an Israel passport.

Another thing is the continuous state of war, that allows Israel to suppress arabs, threaten, kill them, steal their land and have rasistic laws. The state of war also helps the pro-Israel lobby in many countries, specially the US and Germany, to ensure the support they need, also through the media (we could simply call it propaganda).

[XNine]

Problem is, these aren't two kids fighting. And we're not the adult.

Unfortunately, you're 100% right.

[Uma888]

There are a couple of things in place to avoid this problem: The seperation of jewish and arabic/muslim population in form of a wall and laws, i.e. arabic people are not allowed to move to their husbands or wifes, if they are not only on Israel territory, but also have an Israel passport.

Another thing is the continuous state of war, that allows Israel to suppress arabs, threaten, kill them, steal their land and have rasistic laws. The state of war also helps the pro-Israel lobby in many countries, specially the US and Germany, to ensure the support they need, also through the media (we could simply call it propaganda).

Apartheid like laws? how "democratic" :eek:

[Dont Hurt Me]

Looks like Satty is saying its all Israels fault. I dont buy it. Doesnt even mention a terrorist group who is running the state called Hamas. I bet Hamas is as pure as the white driven snow? please. Israel is in a constant state of war because of all those who surround it and have tried and called for its destruction or dont recognize Israels right to exist.

[satty]

Looks like Satty is saying its all Israels fault. I dont buy it. Doesnt even mention a terrorist group who is running the state called Hamas. I bet Hamas is as pure as the white driven snow? please. Israel is in a constant state of war because of all those who surround it and have tried and called for its destruction or dont recognize Israels right to exist.

Calm down. I didn't say it's Israel's fault. I was only pointing out Israel's long term interests, that's all. I didn't say anything about the Palestinian side, because without any support from outside nothing will change for them anyway, which might explain some of the Palestinian behaviour.

We have to question people we support and that are close to us, i.e. our friends, not the one we didn't care about at all for 50+ years already.

Btw: What makes you support Israel so strongly?

[eva01]

In my opinion, both of them are as bad as the other.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Satty's point about the population growth is very valid. I seem pro Israel? I guess its the years of suicide stuff from the otherside. Plus I think all religions suck but some suck more.:cool:

[blackfox]

Watching some news coverage, I have a couple comments/questions:

1. Israel is employing psychological warfare techniques. They took out Gaza's sole power-station, robbing them of power. They have also cut off the water supply and dropped leaflets warning Palestinians to stay away from advancing tanks. They are also performing all-night sonic-boom fly-bys to deprives citizens of sleep. Are these legitimate techniques to employ? While they seem in some ways preferable to direct-assault techniques, I believe that the denial of power/water to civilians is against the GC.

2. Palestianians have responded by kidnapping a few more Israeli citizens and threatening to behead them if the Israelis don't pull back. Now while this technique is certainly less-defensible than Israeli actions, Palestine simply does not have the capability to use the same techniques as Israel, so can you directly compare the relative acceptability of the two?

[satty]

Satty's point about the population growth is very valid. I seem pro Israel? I guess its the years of suicide stuff from the otherside. Plus I think all religions suck but some suck more.:cool:

I don't care about religion either (all looks the same to me, Buddhism might be the only exception though). I see it more from a humanitarian point of view.

Regarding suicide attacks: Only because Israel soldiers can kill without risking their own lives or being brought to justice* doesn't make their killings lawful or justifiable. And as I pointed out earlier (media/propaganda): The death of an Israel citizen is much more likely to appear in our media than the killing of a Palestinian one. To make it perfectly clear: Every person killed is one person to many.

How many people, mainly civilians, do you think were killed in the Israel/Palestine conflict this year alone on each side?



* The only one that springs to mind is the one who shot a British citizen.

[Qoxiivi]

I cant blame Israel, they have shown tolerance in the upmost.

No they haven’t. Well, if you listen to Fox News or read the tabloids (or 95% of the broadsheets for that matter) they have.

I think Israel has had enough, just go bomb the sh.. out of em like we did Saddam.

Or gas the sh.. out of them like Saddam did to the Kurds… with our support. Or like he did to the rebelling Iraqi generals who tried to over throw him after the first gulf war – before we refused to help them even by just allowing them access to captured Iraqi weaponry/equipment.

Saddam was one example and we all know about the years and years of terrorist attacks on innocent civilians in Israel.

We do. We all know about that. What most of us don’t know however is the other side of the story.

I guess its the years of suicide stuff from the otherside. Plus I think all religions suck but some suck more.

Ok, I really really really don't want to come across as patronising or anything because a couple of years ago I held pretty much the same opinion as you (mostly for the reasons you’ve given in the above quote) on the Israeli/Palestinian situation, but you really haven’t got a clue what you’re going on about. And, at that time, neither did I.

I would watch the news and constantly see stories of suicide bombers blowing up Israeli cafes and nightclubs and such and all I ever saw in response was Israeli firing shells or missiles at terrorists – not civilians. Believe me, however unjustified, this is not the whole story. Not by a long shot. Israel (entirely with our support both politically and militarily) has massacred more than its fair share of completely innocent civilians – by which I mean more than the Palestinian suicide bombers. Far more.

I'm not saying Palestinian suicide bombers are justified in their actions – far from it – but there are reasons for the actions. Just like the Beslan siege when Chechen rebels stormed that primary school in Russia and killed around 300 kids and teachers. I saw a thousand news reports condemning the slaughter – and rightly so – but not one asking why a group of people would actually see fit to do this kind of thing. People do not do these kinds of things (let alone garner support and followers for their cause) on a whim. The siege was in response to Russia’s awful murderous actions in Chechnya. Treat enough people like **** for a long enough time and, soon enough, no matter how awful or unjustified, a few of the more desperate or nutty ones will find a way to retaliate in a fashion violently proportionate to the length and depth of their compounded rage, hatred, oppression and humiliation.

Honestly man, read some books on the subject. From what you know right now, your position is understandable, but believe me, you don’t know half (no prizes for guessing which half) of the story. You can start with:

Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel & The Palestinians by Noam Chomsky

You don’t have to agree with its political persuasion, but at just under 600 pages it’s comprehensive and it’ll at least give you a little (a lot of) context and a few lesser-known facts about the whole horrible situation.

[iGary]

No they haven’t. Well, if you listen to Fox News or read the tabloids (or 95% of the broadsheets for that matter) they have.



Or gas the sh.. out of them like Saddam did to the Kurds… with our support. Or like he did to the rebelling Iraqi generals who tried to over throw him after the first gulf war – before we refused to help them even by just allowing them access to captured Iraqi weaponry/equipment.



We do. We all know about that. What most of us don’t know however is the other side of the story.



Ok, I really really really don't want to come across as patronising or anything because a couple of years ago I held pretty much the same opinion as you (mostly for the reasons you’ve given in the above quote) on the Israeli/Palestinian situation, but you really haven’t got a clue what you’re going on about. And, at that time, neither did I.

I would watch the news and constantly see stories of suicide bombers blowing up Israeli cafes and nightclubs and such and all I ever saw in response was Israeli firing shells or missiles at terrorists – not civilians. Believe me, however unjustified, this is not the whole story. Not by a long shot. Israel (entirely with our support both politically and militarily) has massacred more than its fair share of completely innocent civilians – by which I mean more than the Palestinian suicide bombers. Far more.

I'm not saying Palestinian suicide bombers are justified in their actions – far from it – but there are reasons for the actions. Just like the Beslan siege when Chechen rebels stormed that primary school in Russia and killed around 300 kids and teachers. I saw a thousand news reports condemning the slaughter – and rightly so – but not one asking why a group of people would actually see fit to do this kind of thing. People do not do these kinds of things (let alone garner support and followers for their cause) on a whim. The siege was in response to Russia’s awful murderous actions in Chechnya. Treat enough people like **** for a long enough time and, soon enough, no matter how awful or unjustified, a few of the more desperate or nutty ones will find a way to retaliate in a fashion violently proportionate to the length and depth of their compounded rage, hatred, oppression and humiliation.

Honestly man, read some books on the subject. From what you know right now, your position is understandable, but believe me, you don’t know half (no prizes for guessing which half) of the story. You can start with:

Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel & The Palestinians by Noam Chomsky

You don’t have to agree with its political persuasion, but at just under 600 pages it’s comprehensive and it’ll at least give you a little (a lot of) context and a few lesser-known facts about the whole horrible situation.


Excellent Post.

[SpAtZ]

deleted post.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Yeah yeah, the U.S and Israel is where all evil originates in the world:rolleyes: I have a feeling Hamas is in for one big spanking.

[iGary]

Yeah yeah, the U.S and Israel is where all evil originates in the world.

Pretty much.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Pretty much.I thought that was the case, meanwhile over in terrorland Israel is rounding up the terrorist..I mean Hamas govt officials.

[Peterkro]

I thought that was the case, meanwhile over in terrorland Israel is rounding up the terrorist..I mean Hamas govt officials.
Over in terrorland Israel is just as much a terrorist as Osama +the US/UK

[Dont Hurt Me]

I would like to know why no one is yelling about the murders of the Israel soldiers? or the execution of the one settler Hamas kidnapped?

[thedude110]

1. Israel is employing psychological warfare techniques. They took out Gaza's sole power-station, robbing them of power. They have also cut off the water supply and dropped leaflets warning Palestinians to stay away from advancing tanks. They are also performing all-night sonic-boom fly-bys to deprives citizens of sleep. Are these legitimate techniques to employ? While they seem in some ways preferable to direct-assault techniques, I believe that the denial of power/water to civilians is against the GC.


Do you have a link on the sonic booms? Not seeing it in what I've been reading.

How long before no electricity and no water becomes a humanitarian crisis? Is large scale, long term suffering (we're talking the destruction of infrastructure here) a more ethical war than a brief, all out offensive?

Imagine you're a kid in Gaza right now. Maybe you're 11 years old.

Imagine what you're going to be thinking when you're 18, your hormones are out of control and you're mad at the world ...

[Peterkro]

I would like to know why no one is yelling about the murders of the Israel soldiers? or the execution of the one soldier Hamas kidnapped?
You seem to think criticism of Israel means total support for the Palestinians
not so there are terrible things going on with both sides and good things going on with both sides.I do of course regret the loss of life on both sides but to be a bit controversial the soldiers are part of a occupying force,that is they're the main cause of the problem if they didn't go to war the leaders would be alone trying to kill each other(from my point of view a good thing) the universal soldier been going to war and dying for politicians for thousands of years,so they are the ones to blame.The controversy bit is it applies to all soldiers in occupying situations.

[Dont Hurt Me]

You seem to think criticism of Israel means total support for the Palestinians
not so there are terrible things going on with both sides and good things going on with both sides.I do of course regret the loss of life on both sides but to be a bit controversial the soldiers are part of a occupying force,that is they're the main cause of the problem if they didn't go to war the leaders would be alone trying to kill each other(from my point of view a good thing) the universal soldier been going to war and dying for politicians for thousands of years,so they are the ones to blame.The controversy bit is it applies to all soldiers in occupying situations.
Good spin on more murders. Murder is just that and Hamas started this one, not the Israel soldiers guarding their tank on their side of the border/wall. Fact is this provocation started with the PLO,Hamas,etc. Maybe just maybe they shouldnt have attacked.

[Peterkro]

No this provocation started with the establishment of the Israeli state in the land of the Palestinians by force and terror.Soldiers guarding a battle tank behind a illegally erected wall on even by Israeli government sources Palestinian territory is in Palestinian terms a legitimate target of resistance and all murders whether by Israelis, USeans, Brits, or anyone else is to me abhorrent.There is still a big difference between resistance and occupation however.

Talking of spin Israeli's are "an honourable people fighting for survival from marauding Arab terrorists" if that ain't spin I've never heard any.

[satty]

...
Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel & The Palestinians by Noam Chomsky
...


That's a good book.

Another one I can recommend, specially if people consider Chomsky too leftist*, is "Taking sides" by Stephen Green(?), which might be hard to get, if it isn't re-published.

The book is based on de-classified US military documents and describes the intelligence, involvement and decision making of the US in the Israel/Palestine conflict up until the the 7 day war.

* Not my opinion.

[skunk]

Good spin on more murders. Murder is just that and Hamas started this one, not the Israel soldiers guarding their tank on their side of the border/wall. Fact is this provocation started with the PLO,Hamas,etc. Maybe just maybe they shouldnt have attacked.DHM, unless everybody involved begins to take a less one-sided view, there is NO CHANCE of a settlement. Gaza is one of the most densely-populated areas on earth. Where do you think the 900,000 refugees came from?
Matthias Burchard of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) said that another week of closure at the Karni-Gaza commercial crossing added to the mounting woes facing Palestinian refugees living in Gaza. That followed a weekend that saw the killing of 14 Palestinians, including a four-year old girl yesterday, protests by farmers who had yet to receive any compensation for bird flu, and widespread public demonstrations protesting the cutting of donor funding. John Ging, Director of UNRWA operations in Gaza, warned today that if Karni remained closed we would once again be counting down to a food crisis. Nearly 800,000 of the 900,000 refugees in Gaza depended on UNRWA's food distribution of flour, oil, sugar and other basic items. Ging stated that the clock was now ticking and the entire distribution would have to be shut down for a second time in less than a month if the Karni commercial crossing to Israel did not open immediately.

Mr. Burchard noted that UNRWA had a humanitarian emergency appeal this year for the West Bank and Gaza amounting to US$ 95.5 million. Until today, they had only received firm pledges of $17.7 million, or only 19 per cent of the amount needed. That was in addition to UNRWA's regular regional budget, which was also facing a severe budget gap of over $132 million. UNRWA needed $360 million just to barely pay their bills. In addition, they had a project budget for building additional schools and to re-house refugees who had lost their shelters and to generally maintain and rehabilitate UNRWA infrastructure. For that budget of US$ 150 million, UNRWA had only received firm pledges of 7 per cent, or US$ 10 million. All of this came at a time when the international community was looking at UNRWA as a source of stability in the Occupied Territories and in the region. UNRWA was already seeing that refugees who had not needed UNRWA services in the West Bank and Gaza were now returning to them due to the impoverishment of the population and that had put an additional burden on UNRWA's already strained ability to provide even basic assistance. UNRWA urgently appealed to the international community to complete their review of aid programmes to the Palestinian Territories and to provide UNRWA with the needed funding which they had pledged in New York last December.http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/22f431edb91c6f548525678a0051be1d/4aae2baa2ca4996a8525714f0053465d!OpenDocument

[iGary]

Good spin on more murders. Murder is just that and Hamas started this one...

Hams started it mommy!!!!

[Music_Producer]

For those of you who have never been to any of these places.. you shouldn't be "Pro-Israeli" in the first place.

Its just like I was "Pro-India" when I was living in Bombay, living a normal life like everyone else does. Every day there would be some news about Islamic terrorists in Kashmir killing soldiers, or kidnapping Indians and torturing them and eventually killing them. That would piss me off, and just like everyone else, I would join the "Lets F@ck these bastards" rally.

However, my view point changed when I went on a vacation to Srinagar (in Kashmir) with my folks. There was heavy security everywhere, but we were still fearful of 'terrorists'. Since my dad and mum are doctors, my mum knew someone who was her patient, quite a long time ago. We went to their home, had some excellent tea, and just talked about various topics.

Obviously I came up with the cliched question - "Why do these kashmiri terrorists kill everyone? I mean why do they hate india so much?"

Thats when he looked at me with that "Oh you city boy.. you have no clue do you?" look, and explained everything. Since independence, Indian soldiers have been patrolling in the Kashmir region. And just like the US soldiers in Iraq go ape crazy killing innocent civilians, thats exactly what the Indian soldiers did. The next day, he actually showed me around the entire place, and you could clearly see how Indian soldiers would treat the locals (muslims) with disrespect. On the other hand, the Hindu pundits would be treated like royals.

Muslim women get raped, men get beaten up and killed, old people are tortured, and what not by Indian soldiers. So when a bunch of native Muslims get pissed off to such an extent that they take AK-47s and start killing indian soldiers, people start pointing fingers at them, instead of trying to understand what the bloody heck prompted them to do that in the first place!

Lets face it, its a fact that Muslims are opressed almost everywhere. People look down on them.. maybe because they're 'different' as in.. they still live their lives based on their faith, their religion. Extreme injustice always breeds terrorism. And how do you expect them to act? You really think they have the means to buy an F-16, load it up with ammo like the Israelis do.. and start bombing the enemy? Heck no!

I don't condone the killing of innocent civilians, or rather anyone.. by any terrorist method. But its just tragic that people take sides before looking at the real picture.

Its sad but, once at an AMC theatre, they were showing some preview of a movie.. and they had a news clip where a Muslim woman was crying and beating at her chest because her son was killed.. and you could hear everyone in the theatre laughing. That just sums up our prejudiced attitude, and its terrible.

Show a movie about 9/11 and people have tears in their eyes and are quiet.. show a movie about Muslims being tortured in Palestine or Iraq and you'll probably get a "Yeh! Kill em!" response. :(

[iGary]

For those of you who have never been to any of these places.. you shouldn't be "Pro-Israeli" in the first place.

I don't think anyone is pro-Israeli, I just think they hate Muslims.

By the way, here is a picture from CNN this morning of Israeli citizens protesting their own governments actions...Familiar?

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/world/0606/gallery.israel.soldier/07super.protests.afp.gi.jpg

[Music_Producer]

I wonder why governments are so screwed up, when the common man just wants to live in peace and work!

[Qoxiivi]

* Not my opinion.

Not mine either ;) I'm right with him all the way to the eventual abolition of states which are, in his opinion and mine as well, illegitimate structures.

[Qoxiivi]

I wonder why governments are so screwed up, when the common man just wants to live in peace and work!

In the most basic sense, because they lie to their citizens and tell them that they're working towards peace - rather than just in their own interests. On the whole, people don't think they're voting in war-mongers - or if they do, they think they're voting in people who are trying to achieve a more general peace through means of temporary violence. Or there abouts anyway.

If however, you're speaking in a more general, anthropoliogical sense as to why, if we're essentially peaceful species, (a massive assumption and one that's hard to prove either way) arseholes keep on rising to the top, then that's a much harder, and more interesting question to answer. Crikey that was a long-winded and badly structured sentence...

Qoxiivi

[dogbone]

It is patently clear that the only reason for the pointless and provocative kidnappinng of Corporal Gilad Shalit is a cynical ploy by Hamas to discredit Abbas and his Fatah faction and ruin the two state solution. Seeing as Hamas are alway quick to reject any suggestion that they may recognise Israel.

While the Palestinians are sitting in the dark cooking on their fuel stoves they may wish to consider the consequences of their electing of Hamas to lead them out of the misery caused by decades of PLO intransigence under Arafat.

EDIT:

Meanwhile, the UN's emergency relief co-ordinator Jan Egeland said that Gaza was on the brink of a humanitarian crisis...

"Hamas leaders, if they are behind this kidnapping of an Israeli soldier in Israel, they should have known it's the worst possible thing at the worst possible time," said Mr Egeland. —BBC

Of course Hamas knows this. It is their raison d'être

[solvs]

In my opinion, both of them are as bad as the other.
Well, yeah. Isaac and Ishmael. And we're all caught in the middle. Which we keep putting ourselves in, then wonder why we catch a bunch of the crossfire.

[jelloshotsrule]

I wonder why governments are so screwed up, when the common man just wants to live in peace and work!

hey, thanks for the insights music producer, interesting read.

you'll notice that pushing the israelis for peace is something that neither major party will really do here in the US. a certain 3rd party presidential candidate spoke frequently about the large (and growing) peace movement within israel that doesn't support their militaristic gov't.

[dogbone]

Lets face it, its a fact that Muslims are opressed almost everywhere.

Nowhere moreso than in their own Muslim countries where they live. And since Hamas have slowly been introducing their Sharia law into Palestine the women of Palestine are not too pleased. In fact you really should single out the female muslims in their own countries as one of the most oppressed majorities on earth.

EDIT:


Speaking at Friday prayers in Gaza City, Mr Haniya said Israel was using Cpl Gilad Shalit's capture by militants as a pretext to bring down his government.

"This total war is proof of a premeditated plan," he told worshippers.

Yes, of course. Israel planned for Hamas to kidnap the soldier, how cunning of them. And Israel is also sending out special manipulating rays that are preventing Hamas from handing ordering the soldier be handed back.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Well, yeah. Isaac and Ishmael. And we're all caught in the middle. Which we keep putting ourselves in, then wonder why we catch a bunch of the crossfire.Aint that the truth, the funny thing is all these arabs and all these jews are from the same family tree:eek: Why cant family just get along?

[iGary]

Yes, of course. Israel planned for Hamas to kidnap the soldier, how cunning of them. And Israel is also sending out special manipulating rays that are preventing Hamas from handing ordering the soldier be handed back.

Didn't stop Israel from "kidnapping" a bunch of Hamas leaders, etiher.

[dogbone]

... "kidnapping" ...

to quote, or not to quote, that is the question.

[jelloshotsrule]

Didn't stop Israel from "kidnapping" a bunch of Hamas leaders, etiher.

or "shooting missles" at them.

[dogbone]

or "witholding port taxes"

or "accepting the Palestinians' right to have their own state"

[Dont Hurt Me]

My guess is as long as terror keeps going on Israel wont ever allow those things. You reward good behavior not bad. We need a seperate state for Palestine with a neutral zone in between the two countries.

[jelloshotsrule]

My guess is as long as terror keeps going on Israel wont ever allow those things. You reward good behavior not bad. We need a seperate state for Palestine with a neutral zone in between the two countries.

surely you realize that it's a classic chicken or the egg scenario, right?

israel won't recognize palestine until the terror stops
the militants won't stop the attacks (and recognize israel) until israel recognizes palestine

more or less...

someone has to be the bigger "man" and take the first step.

[dogbone]

someone has to be the bigger "man" and take the first step.

And what is this first step, for example. Surely it must be Hamas simply recognising Israel's right to exist. Because as long as Hamas has their stated goal of the eradication of Israel, I fail to see how any other step can have any meaning.

[jelloshotsrule]

And what is this first step, for example. Surely it must be Hamas simply recognising Israel's right to exist. Because as long as Hamas has their stated goal of the eradication of Israel, I fail to see how any other step can have any meaning.

has israel recognized the palestinians' right to their own state?

of course hamas has to recognize israel's right to exist. hard to do with israel shooting rockets at you (the sentences could be written exactly the same but with hamas/israel switched)

[mactastic]

Generally the way the 'bigger person' thing works is that the person with the most power has to take the first step towards peace once a stalemate position has been reached.

[Dont Hurt Me]

surely you realize that it's a classic chicken or the egg scenario, right?

israel won't recognize palestine until the terror stops
the militants won't stop the attacks (and recognize israel) until israel recognizes palestine

more or less...

someone has to be the bigger "man" and take the first step.This has been going on for years and they both are guilty of killing. It most likely will keep on going for centuries making sure both parties live a hellish life. Its either that or one will get so sick of it it will try to wipe out the other. Good way to start the next WW3 for the rest of us?

[freeny]

They both want you to drink their Kool-aid but which Kool-aid to choose???:rolleyes:

[solvs]

They both want you to drink their Kool-aid but which Kool-aid to choose???:rolleyes:
I try not to drink anyone's Kool-Aid. And no one's going to take the first step because war is way too profitable and much easier to keep people under control. Plus it's easier to fight than forgive. Many have tried to make peace, but sadly they don't always get very far.

I seem to recall this guy named Jesus living in that area awhile ago trying to spread a message of peace and loving your enemy, and look at what happened to him.

[dogbone]

has israel recognized the palestinians' right to their own state?

Yes, both implicitly and explicitly.


of course hamas has to recognize israel's right to exist. hard to do with israel shooting rockets at you (the sentences could be written exactly the same but with hamas/israel switched)

It's no more hard for Hamas than it is for Israel, and Israel has already done so. You are wrong about the sentences being switched because, Israel has already recognised the Palestinians right to a sovereign state. But not vice versa. Hamas in fact recently stated that they will NEVER recognise Israel's right to exist.

[dogbone]

I seem to recall this guy named Jesus ...and look at what happened to him.

He became famous and posthumously headed a multi billion dollar empire