North Korea launches 2 missiles

[FFTT]

Neither one is the ICBM that eveyone was watching so what's up with this?

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-04T201646Z_01_N04284348_RTRUKOC_0_US-KOREA-NORTH-MISSILE.xml
BBC, ABC and CNN all confirmed a second launch.

[eva01]

Kim is playing with the world

[FFTT]

I would just love to see China level his ***** into the ground.

[Danksi]

What made me laugh was the link to the "Streaker stops play; Full coverage of Wimbledon" - 'story'. :rolleyes:

[yankeefan24]

They want to get themselves blown up, don't they?

[FFTT]

It's 3 now waiting for details.

[yankeefan24]

It's 3 now waiting for details.

It's the ICBM Taepodong-2 (sp?):eek: :eek:

North Korea launched at least three missiles early Wednesday -- one of them the long-range Taepodong-2 missile, according to senior State Department sources. One source said it appeared the Taepodong-2 test failed in midair. The United States, Japan and other countries have warned North Korea against a long-range missile test, saying it would be considered a provocation.

EDIT: Link to full CNN article: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/04/korea.missile/index.html

[Dont Hurt Me]

He's trying to ride on the Shuttles success:D 4th July and all maybe its just everyone's celebrating shooting off their biggest fireworks including the crazy N. Korean.:)

[zimv20]

yes, i don't think the july 4 launch was a coincidence.

[eva01]

And of course it failed....go figure

[Dont Hurt Me]

Now it appears 4 missiles fired CNN reports, guess we need to change the title of this thread.

[eva01]

So what does the US do now?

[FFTT]

Now Faux is reporting a 4th and supposedly the 3rd was the ICBM, but it
broke apart or was shot down mid air.

[FFTT]

Apparently this is a case of space shuttle envy.

Unconfirmed reports say that Kim strapped some poor souls
to each one attempting North Korea's first manned space flight.:D


Watch the new Kim video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wO28NQc9tW4

[Backtothemac]

I would not be suprised in the least if we shot the missle down. Perfect test situation for us to see if we could do it. The next few days are going to be interesting especailly because none of the missiles fired were the one that we had seen on the launch pad for weeks.

[rdowns]

We didn't shoot it down. The missile flew for only 42 seconds. Inept Korean technology.

[Backtothemac]

We didn't shoot it down. The missile flew for only 42 seconds. Inept Korean technology.
Oh, I agree, but it would be funny if we did ;)

[skunk]

Inept Korean technology.When you consider the conditions they're working under, it's a bloody miracle they could even get the thing off the ground.

[skunk]

Oh, I agree, but it would be funny if we did ;)Why would shooting down a missile on a test-firing be funny? Bloody irresponsible maybe, but "funny"?

[rdowns]

White House now confirms 5 missile tests.

[iGary]

I would just love to see China level his ***** into the ground.

Liberal love.

[Desertrat]

I'd have expected a better level of success, given the amount of technical knowledge that's publicly available.

I remember our bad old days when we blew up rocket after rocket on the launch pads. We were about to rename them "Civil Service": Ya can't fire 'em, ya can't get get 'em to work.

'Rat

[Dont Hurt Me]

Seems most Missiles were pointed towards Japan, I dont see this as helping N.Korea nor the ones who back them as China or Russia.

[FFTT]

Well maybe leveling Kim's bases to the ground was going a bit too far.

How about a relentless counter attack of water balloons and freedom fries?

[Backtothemac]

Why would shooting down a missile on a test-firing be funny? Bloody irresponsible maybe, but "funny"?
Why would that not be funny. They are flexing their muscles and saying, "we will bring you down" and boom.

We shoot their little missile out of the sky. Sorry, but that would be funny as hell. I guess that is the redneck in my though ;)

[Danksi]

Why would that not be funny. They are flexing their muscles and saying, "we will bring you down" and boom.

We shoot their little missile out of the sky. Sorry, but that would be funny as hell. I guess that is the redneck in my though ;)

They've yet to prove their long-range missile systems and the USA has yet to prove it's missile defense system.

As a Canadian resident however, I'd prefer neither get a chance to do either, Saturday's Canada Day fireworks were spectacular enough ta! (even if N.Korea's long range missile only has a theoretical range of Coastal Alaska)

[solvs]

So what does the US do now?
Hopefully we don't do something stupid to make things worse. Knowing us, we probably will. Like I said in the other threads, 2 nutjobs trying to act like cowboys. Playing with their toys. Pissing off the rest of the world.

We're all doomed.

[Mr. Anderson]

meh - they were probably testing the second or third stage of their long range ICBM and didn't want anyone to know :D

Regardless, its all so stupid and I hope nothing ever happens....

D

[codo]

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5149512.stm) is reporting 7 have now been tested - Clearly a bold statement is being made.

[liketom]

so are these Missiles Duds? or do they have a payload?

[homerjward]

BBC is reporting 7 have now been tested - Clearly a bold statement is being made.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/07/05/korea.missile/index.html
cnn link about the 7th missile

[MACDRIVE]

Not to worry folks, the Taipodong only flew for 35 seconds before blowing up in mid air. I was actually expecting it to blow up on the launch pad. Maybe they should give up on building missiles and try to make a good mouse trap. :p

[Dont Hurt Me]

Perhaps they should work on food and taking care of its people instead of throwing away $$$ on missiles. I wonder what 1 missile costs and how many people that could feed. A starving country that has all the wrong focus, reminds me of the old Soviet Union.

[scem0]

Perhaps they should work on food and taking care of its people instead of throwing away $$$ on missiles. I wonder what 1 missile costs and how many people that could feed. A starving country that has all the wrong focus, reminds me of the old Soviet Union.

Yes, the famine in North Korea is a tragedy, indeed. He built these missles with international aide money in all likelihood. Isn't that just dandy?

e

[codo]

The BBC has updated their page with a more detailed view of the range;

Actual (estimated) range of tests so far
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41849000/gif/_41849926_north_korea203x202.gif

And possible range
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41849000/gif/_41849932_north_korea_4_416x309.gif

Full story. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5149512.stm)

NATO has expressed its concern - I just hope everyone keeps a cool head in the forthcoming discussion.

[mactastic]

Not to worry folks, the Taipodong only flew for 35 seconds before blowing up in mid air. I was actually expecting it to blow up on the launch pad. Maybe they should give up on building missiles and try to make a good mouse trap. :p
Yeah, but we've lost a few on the launch pad, and look at our missle and rocket programs now.

Just 'cause this one failed doesn't mean we're safe...

[IJ Reilly]

Yeah, but we've lost a few on the launch pad, and look at our missle and rocket programs now.

Many failures later. Long-range missiles are a lot more complicated than they look, I believe, and North Korea isn't exactly a country with a lot of resources to throw at it. Launching seven missiles simultaneously seems to me to be an act of desperation. It seems they wanted more to make a show of the exercise than to learn anything useful for future development.

[Josh]

It seems to me North Korea is behaving a the chubby brat in grade school, picking on all the bigger kids who have the patience not to pile drive him.

However, considering the oppression of NK, I wouldn't mind seeing Kim get pile drived.

Heck, let him and W fist fight. I'd pay $39.99 on pay-per-view for that.

[2nyRiggz]

Many failures later. Long-range missiles are a lot more complicated than they look, I believe, and North Korea isn't exactly a country with a lot of resources to throw at it. Launching seven missiles simultaneously seems to me to be an act of desperation. It seems they wanted more to make a show of the exercise than to learn anything useful for future development.

Indeed...I don't think it was a learning thing for Kim...more like "We are able" but why Japan...that could cause problems for them..lets hope the cowboys don't freak out and try something stupid.

Bless

[skunk]

Just 'cause this one failed doesn't mean we're safe...Just 'cause NK has a missile doesn't mean you're in danger...

[mactastic]

Just 'cause NK has a missile doesn't mean you're in danger...
I never said otherwise. I was simply pointing out that one launch failure does not a failed program make...

[skunk]

I never said otherwise. I was simply pointing out that one launch failure does not a failed program make...I certainly agree with that, but even if NK had 10 or 20 armed and functional ICBMs, what on earth could they gain by using them?

[IJ Reilly]

I never said otherwise. I was simply pointing out that one launch failure does not a failed program make...

Nor a successful one. My point was that their launch of seven missiles at once suggests that the program is more for show than go.

[IJ Reilly]

I certainly agree with that, but even if NK had 10 or 20 armed and functional ICBMs, what on earth could they gain by using them?

Nobody gains by using them. They gain simply by having them.

[skunk]

Nobody gains by using them. They gain simply by having them.Exactly. And why not?

[mactastic]

I certainly agree with that, but even if NK had 10 or 20 armed and functional ICBMs, what on earth could they gain by using them?
You'll have to ask that of someone who thinks they could gain by using them...

[mactastic]

Nor a successful one. My point was that their launch of seven missiles at once suggests that the program is more for show than go.
I was not in any way, shape, or form disagreeing with you.

[skunk]

I was not in any way, shape, or form disagreeing with you.How boring! Where are all the "nuke-the-feckers-before-they-nuke-us" crowd today?

[IJ Reilly]

Right. I came here for an argument.

[mactastic]

Oh, I'm sorry. This is abuse.

[Danksi]

How boring! Where are all the "nuke-the-feckers-before-they-nuke-us" crowd today?

Nuke 'em 'til they GLOW dammit! :rolleyes:

[skunk]

Oh, I'm sorry. This is abuse.I think it's your turn to be the hapless troll.

EDIT: Oh, I see we've got one already. Let's scrag him, guys!

[solvs]

Just 'cause NK has a missile doesn't mean you're in danger...
As I said, I'm more worried about GW's response. No one is yelling "nuke the bastards" because now they can nuke back (theoretically). Or at least, others could, like China or Russia. So let me be the first to say "please DON'T nuke 'em"!

[Thomas Veil]

Who can be afraid of a country that is so pathetic it needs to crib their flag from Texaco?

http://www.harrisburgjetcenter.com/hjc/services/images/texaco_logo.gif

.

.

http://socsci.colorado.edu/~beer/COUNTRIES/NORTH%20KOREA/flag.gif

[Desertrat]

The NK Big, Bad, Bad-Ass Rocket (BBBAR) made, what, 35 seconds of flight? Their big mistake was in not having membership in http://www.space-rockets.com/arsa.html They might have learned something.

You reckon the head of the program was truly shamed? So shamed that he went to the NK police headquarters and commited suicide? Via several shots from a revolver? To the back of the head? While handcuffed?

To be tad more than halfway serious, though: You have a country playing with nukes and long range rockets, and bossed by a certifiable nut case. Any person who's not somewhat concerned about what North Korea does next is living in a dream world...

'Rat

[Josh]

To be tad more than halfway serious, though: You have a country playing with nukes and long range rockets, and bossed by a certifiable nut case. Any person who's not somewhat concerned about what North Korea does next is living in a dream world...

'Rat

I agree, but at the same time, what they plan/would like to do, and what they are capable of are very different things.

NK is a country stuck in the 60's with very little resources. Their recent display was an expensive one for any country, and even more so for theirs. They won't have the funds to keep testing, improving, and developing anything worthy of concern for quite some time - if ever.

[IJ Reilly]

North Korea has a history of fomenting a crisis whenever they think they aren't getting the amount of attention they deserve. The current crisis is a product of the U.S. refusal to participate in one-on-one talks.

[Black&Tan]

I worry about what he's really up to.

Launching missiles without prior warning to other nations. Threatening his neighbors with force if they engage in sanctions. Admitting to the kidnapping of foreign citizens, and then shrugging it off as if its meaningless.

If he's trying to provoke a fight, who does it benefit?

[Black&Tan]

North Korea has a history of fomenting a crisis whenever they think they aren't getting the amount of attention they deserve

Why does this sound to me like a spoiled child?

[mactastic]

To be tad more than halfway serious, though: You have a country playing with nukes and long range rockets, and bossed by a certifiable nut case. Any person who's not somewhat concerned about what North Korea does next is living in a dream world...
At first I thought you were talking about the US here... :D

In a slightly more serious vein, no one here is saying they're not worried about what NK does next. We're saying we don't trust either leader to keep their rhetoric in perspective and find ourselves blustered into a conflict that didn't need to happen.

That certifiable nut case, as you call him, wants what nuclear weapons provide: international 'cred', and a deterrant threat to prevent attacks from others. That's the most realistic assesment I've seen. All the other nattering about how he's going to attack neighbors and hand off weapons to terrorists is just political posturing from people who need to sound tough. Nutcase or not, Kim knows that would spell his end.

Besides, if we were serious about proliferation as a threat, AQ Kahn and Pakistan would be tops on our list since that's the most likely source for North Korea.

And of course, even if things did get out of hand, George W. Bush has hollowed out our military with unnecessary and ill-advised foreign entanglements. Short of a nuclear strike of our own, what would we do? Cut and run for real from Iraq to take on North Korea? Or hope that air power alone will cut it?

[IJ Reilly]

Why does this sound to me like a spoiled child?

Not a bad analogy, but I prefer to think of them as an antisocial child. They're isolated from everyone else, but learn to draw attention to themselves by lashing out.

[mactastic]

If he's trying to provoke a fight, who does it benefit?
The North Koreans. Or rather Kim and his cronies.

He manufactures a crisis, and the international community gives him stuff to make him calm down.

It sucks, but it's still probably cheaper and less traumatic than war. I know the child analogy is highly apt, but this isn't a child. It's a calculating adult with nuclear weapons. You can't take the same approach that you would with a petulant child.

[Black&Tan]

I heard a story on the news this morning...although since it was on ABC, I can't necessarily confirm its accuracy. According to the report, all houses have a speaker on the wall, and they wake up every morning to propaganda broadcast about their great leader, and they hear the same at night before bedtime. I find this very hard to believe.

To what degree is our "news" being manipulated and to what ends?

[Josh]

I heard a story on the news this morning...although since it was on ABC, I can't necessarily confirm its accuracy. According to the report, all houses have a speaker on the wall, and they wake up every morning to propaganda broadcast about their great leader, and they hear the same at night before bedtime. I find this very hard to believe.


That would not be at all surprising for NK, really.

Here are some pics (more on page 2):
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82755

There is also a really good video from Dan Rather who went to NK and showed (what little he was allowed) a look at some things. Needless to say, it is very disturbing, creepy, and things like you mentioned above are not out of the question.

Unfortunately, I cannot find this video again. I've been searching for it for about 15 minutes now - I'll keep trying.

EDIT: I found it:
http://throwawayyourtv.com/2006/04/dan-rather-in-north-korea.html

(A big *must watch* for that video)

[Black&Tan]

I saw those photos, including the ones he wasn't supposed to take. The fake computers and televisions, all a sham. According to this news report on ABC, North Koreans who defected to China were amazed at the prosperity China enjoyed. They were led to believe that NK had a richer lifestyle.

The report also indicated Kim had a massive video addiction and has thousands of recordings. Many of them purchased while his countrymen were starving. Propaganda?

[Dont Hurt Me]

That would not be at all surprising for NK, really.

Here are some pics (more on page 2):
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82755

There is also a really good video from Dan Rather who went to NK and showed (what little he was allowed) a look at some things. Needless to say, it is very disturbing, creepy, and things like you mentioned above are not out of the question.

Unfortunately, I cannot find this video again. I've been searching for it for about 15 minutes now - I'll keep trying.I saw the Dan Rather's interview, the people of the North Korea have now 3 generations of brainwashed folks. They just dont have any idea of what is in the world, what truth is and everything they have comes from their leader. They are isolated from everyone so all they know is what their Govt tells them. The North Koreans really have nothing to loose by starting a war because they have nothing.

[zimv20]

Launching missiles without prior warning to other nations. Threatening his neighbors with force if they engage in sanctions. Admitting to the kidnapping of foreign citizens, and then shrugging it off as if its meaningless.
...another comment that i thought might have been about the US...

[Black&Tan]

I'll agree with part of your comment, it seems like the CIA has been guilty of kidnapping with the collusion of other governments. Threatening with force regarding sanctions...I don't think so. Threatening with force...well that's what carrier battle groups do. Launching ballistic missiles without prior warning...I think there is an international group that is notified before testing by all the western powers.

[zimv20]

Launching ballistic missiles without prior warning...I think there is an international group that is notified before testing by all the western powers.
who said anything about testing? :-)

[Black&Tan]

That's Dubya for ya....

[mactastic]

According to the report, all houses have a speaker on the wall, and they wake up every morning to propaganda broadcast about their great leader, and they hear the same at night before bedtime. I find this very hard to believe.
I didn't think they had the electrical resources to make that happen. From what I understand, electricity isn't a guarantee there.

[Black&Tan]

I didn't think they had the electrical resources to make that happen. From what I understand, electricity isn't a guarantee there.

That was my initial thought....

[IJ Reilly]

I didn't think they had the electrical resources to make that happen. From what I understand, electricity isn't a guarantee there.

They use tin cans and string.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I didn't think they had the electrical resources to make that happen. From what I understand, electricity isn't a guarantee there.No kidding, I saw a night photo of Korea and the south was all lit up almost everywhere but the north was almost in total blackness. These people are brainwashed,3 generations of brainwashing. They have been expecting war since the 50s and never stopped, burying fleets of planes under mountains, tunnels to S.Korea etc. If war ever broke out the U.S. would have to hit it very hard the first time or nuke it, otherwise that million man army would invade and take S. Korea. Problem is everyone of those N.Koreans are programmed by the state. The Crazy N. Korean is like God to them, most would give their life to serve their master no matter how wrong. This is what we & the world face.

[Thomas Veil]

I heard a story on the news this morning...although since it was on ABC, I can't necessarily confirm its accuracy. According to the report, all houses have a speaker on the wall, and they wake up every morning to propaganda broadcast about their great leader, and they hear the same at night before bedtime. I find this very hard to believe.

To what degree is our "news" being manipulated and to what ends?(shakes head)

(shakes head again)

Huhhhh?!???!?

[Thomas Veil]

They use tin cans and string.No no no, that's the phone company.

[IJ Reilly]

No no no, that's the phone company.

They keep trying to sell me on those new-fangled stringless telephones.

[mactastic]

They keep trying to sell me on those new-fangled stringless telephones.
So does VoIP involve tubes as well?

[FFTT]

I wish there was a way we could bombard NK with books, magazines, newspapers or flyers to such a massive scale that there would be no stopping the flow of information.

Some way of showing the NK citizens what they are missing as long
as Kim stays in power.

[Black&Tan]

I wish there was a way we could bombard NK with books, magazines, newspapers or flyers to such a massive scale that there would be no stopping the flow of information.

Some way of showing the NK citizens what they are missing as long
as Kim stays in power.

Actually, that's not such a bad idea. Communication technology such as cel phones, $100 laptops, satellite radios, etc. would be worthwhile also, but harder to hide. Some way to enlighten them about what the world is really like.

[codo]

I wish there was a way we could bombard NK with books, magazines, newspapers or flyers to such a massive scale that there would be no stopping the flow of information.

Some way of showing the NK citizens what they are missing as long
as Kim stays in power.

North Koreans should be able to get BBC World Service in East Asia via shortwave radio for a few minuets each day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/schedules/frequencies/ase.htm

This service has existed for decades allowing almost every region in the world to get bias free news. The British government pay for this service out of taxes, not the licence fee, allowing such regions to get bias free news. It is not controlled by any government in any way shape or form, despite some claims, and adheres to the same strict standards of any other news broadcast the BBC must make legally bias free in the UK.

Whether or not the government there prohibited the sale radios capable of receiving the broadcasts, I don’t know, or even have enough money to purchase such a device.

[tristan]

It's nice to think of the North Koreans getting their info from the BBC and other unbiased news sources and rising up, but that sounds farfetched unfortunately - I think the leadership has the place locked down into a police state, and information alone isn't going to free those people. NK is probably one place where a regime change would work - my guess is that the people there would be very happy to be reunited with South Korea.

[codo]

It's nice to think of the North Koreans getting their info from the BBC and other unbiased news sources and rising up, but that sounds farfetched unfortunately.

Unless North Korea scrambles the analogue signals, which I presume is feasible although I have no knowledge in the area so I could be wrong, they have little way of stopping World Service as it transmits at long range legally out of their country.

However, even if they do have access to this information, I agree that it’s probably not enough. One can only hope it does help to reassure or at the very least keep some people informed.

[zimv20]

Unless North Korea scrambles the analogue signals, which I presume is feasible although I have no knowledge in the area so I could be wrong, they have little way of stopping World Service as it transmits at long range legally out of their country.
all they have to do is pump out a stronger signal at the same frequency. pink noise would do the job nicely.

[codo]

all they have to do is pump out a stronger signal at the same frequency. pink noise would do the job nicely.

There you go, I presumed it was possible. We can try, eh?

[Black&Tan]

I've started to do a little bit of internet reading on North Korea. This link is pretty interesting....

http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-institutions_government/north_korea_2686.jsp

as is this one:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,325914,00.html


And this link is just plain scary:

http://www.rense.com/general37/nkorr.htm

I don't think too many people want a war with NK, but with the Japanese and South Korean responses to the missile tests, I can't help but think it is a distinct possibility - maybe as high as 30%.

[tristan]

I believe there will be some military action - whether you call it a war or not depends upon your definition. I could definitely see a "no-fly" zone over NK and bombing of SAM sites if escalations continue.

[Dont Hurt Me]

I believe there will be some military action - whether you call it a war or not depends upon your definition. I could definitely see a "no-fly" zone over NK and bombing of SAM sites if escalations continue.China,Russia own this guy...........But if they arent going to do anything at all and that is what they are saying in public then perhaps its up to us to give hime a spanking. He is the one doing all of their thinking, thats the the deal in dictatorships. Take him out & this house of cards comes tumbling down.

[mactastic]

Take him out & this house of cards comes tumbling down.That's what they said about Iraq too...

[Agathon]

I believe there will be some military action - whether you call it a war or not depends upon your definition. I could definitely see a "no-fly" zone over NK and bombing of SAM sites if escalations continue.

In which case I wish that NK did have nuclear weapons and nuked a couple of American cities in response. It might make the US think twice before it starts causing more needless trouble. If Shrub hadn't made the stupid mistake of including North Korea in the "Axis of Evil" and thereby ruining a lot of the work that the ROK government had done in trying to forge relations with North Korea, we would not be at the juncture we are now.

I happen to have been living in Seoul for a while now. Most South Koreans don't particularly care about North Korea, nor are they afraid of it. North Korea is the "weird neighbour". North Korea is being belligerent for the simple reason that they are afraid because the world's superpower basically stated that it wanted to overthrow the North Korean regime. The North Koreans probably don't have a working nuclear weapon, but they are doing their best to make the world think they do in order to deter an attack on them.

Let's be clear about what North Korea is. It's an isolated state that lost most of its trading partners with the fall of the Communist Bloc. As such, its economy is in a dire state and it feels threatened by all of its neighbours. Hence it has to project an image of power to the region in order to deter attack. There is absolutely no way that North Korea would under normal circumstances provoke a war with the South. They would get their asses handed to them, even if the US were not involved.

Some friends recently visited North Korea. They said that its basically a place where nothing has been repaired for 15 years. The North Koreans are basically ordinary people, and are not the completely brainwashed hordes they are portrayed to be by the west. It's a pretty terrible place in many ways, but certainly not what it is portrayed to be in the western media. In fact they said it was better characterized as just being weird.

US policy in Korea since the Bush administration took power has been counterproductive and is resented by most Koreans. Things had been getting better for quite a while (despite the duplicity of the North) and most people here in the ROK were pretty happy with the way things were. That was the way it had to be. The ROK could simply not afford to absorb North Korea by means of unification. The policy was to try to normalize relations as much as possible while avoiding the collapse of the North Korean government (which would be a disaster for everyone in Korea, the North Koreans included).

That was the common sense view. Unfortunately, that moron Bush, and the moronic US establishment had to stir things up needlessly. Hopefully, this will pass.

[Agathon]

Take him out & this house of cards comes tumbling down.

This would be a disaster. North Korea would have to unify with South Korea, and South Korea, wealthy as it is, simply cannot afford that. The ROK is not Germany (which is still suffering economic problems from its absorption of E Germany nearly 2 decades later).

The only sensible policy is to contain North Korea and try to forge better relations with it so that it does not feel threatened. Perhaps at some point in the future, the region would be able to endure the collapse of the North Korean regime, but the conventional wisdom here is that this will not be any time soon.

[zimv20]

agathon -- thanks for the insight.

[solvs]

The North Koreans probably don't have a working nuclear weapon, but they are doing their best to make the world think they do in order to deter an attack on them.
They forget who they're dealing with. Saddam tried the same thing and gave BushCo an excuse to invade, even though they knew it wasn't true. This what power hungry madmen call diplomacy.

I'd say we aren't stupid enough to fall for it again, but we probably are.