Sakoman Returns to Apple [Archive]

MacRumors

Mar 5, 2003, 12:30 AM

CNet reports (http://rss.com.com/2100-1041-991061.html) that Steve Sakoman is returning to Apple:

Sakoman, who recently left his post as chief product officer at Palm software unit PalmSource, will report to Apple Senior Vice President Avie Tevanian, an Apple representative confirmed Tuesday. Sakoman, who most recently helped lead development of the Palm operating system, worked on the Newton handheld project, among other things during his previous stint at Apple.

This Geek.com article (http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Feb/bpd20030224018798.htm) details Sakoman's contributions at Apple previously:

Sakoman first stepped into the techie limelight when working at Apple as manager of several hardware groups responsible for such Apple gear as the Apple II, the Macintosh, the Newton, and many of the processor designs from 1984-'87.

Sakoman was also a co-founder of Be, Inc. and later joined Palm after Palm acquired Be in August of 2001. No details are provided as to Sakoman's future role at Apple.

dethl

Mar 5, 2003, 12:35 AM

The rebirth of the Newton? (don't flame me!)...or could it be the Apple brand tablet....geez...apple just opened a can of worms on us rumormongers

It would be extremely welcome (at least to me) to see the Newton brought back.

GeeYouEye

Mar 5, 2003, 12:37 AM

The obvious thing to say is Apple's going to make a PDA, but I doubt it. I don't think a handwriting-recognizing iPod is out of the question though. It will, however, remain first and foremost a music player, I think.

ELYXR

Mar 5, 2003, 01:22 AM

I think Apple is very conscious of the amount of devices in our pockets these days... Consolidating these dedicated devices into a simple and easy to use device (or 2) would be a very good idea.

On any given day I cannot find enough pockets for:

1. a PDA
2. an iPod
3. a CellPhone
4. a Wallet

That's 4 pockets! Instead of 1,000 songs in your pocket, it should be 1,000 songs, my business, my communicator...

My .02 cents :p

york2600

Mar 5, 2003, 02:11 AM

I get stuck with a pocket for the iPod, a pocket for the cell phone, a pocket for the wallet, and a pocket for the keys. That's why my PDA sits in my desk drawer collecting dust. That or that fact that it runs CE and erases all my data when the battery runs out.

RandomDeadHead

Mar 5, 2003, 02:30 AM

Please god, no more pda/color ipod/tablet, rumor fuel.

celaurie

Mar 5, 2003, 02:31 AM

Who cares, just so long as it's Apple in my pocket!

timbloom

Mar 5, 2003, 02:36 AM

I am glad to see this growth at Apple. I remember the days where I could not go a week without hearing a story about another executive at Apple leaving. Now it seems to be just the opposite, a sign of the times I would believe. Good times.

DreaminDirector

Mar 5, 2003, 02:42 AM

Sure, GeeYouEye is right. Lets not all say "ALL HAIL iTABLET" right off. I bet they brought him on to figure out what the next big pocket device is going to be. I can almost say that it's something we all need, but just dont know it yet.

Pre-iPod, I didn't know I needed 2000 MP3s with me for where ever I go. But guess what, I can't live without it now.

Apple! Tell me what I need!!!!

HasanDaddy

Mar 5, 2003, 02:45 AM

Say hello to the Newton2!

bdkennedy1

Mar 5, 2003, 02:46 AM

Only good things can come out of this!

maxterpiece

Mar 5, 2003, 03:04 AM

I gotta say that an iPod with a little extra dimension to it would be nice. If could just make playlists, add contacts and maybe plug a keyboard in, it would be an infinitely more dynamic contraption. If Sakky can get that together for me, I might just be friends with him.

word

Chaszmyr

Mar 5, 2003, 05:00 AM

I haven't heard of this guy before, but does he even still make hardware designs? I mean that stuff he made for Apple was a long time ago... He might just take some sort of hands-off executive job.

lou tsee

Mar 5, 2003, 06:02 AM

funny - I read 'Saruman is returning to Apple'

I probably watched too much of lord of the rings...

"I come back to you now - at the turn of the tide" fits nicely here though...

;)

weev

Mar 5, 2003, 06:33 AM

Executive movement TO Apple can only be a good thing, with the guy (or is it girl) from Adobe coming on board also it bades well for strong, experienced, creative management... but also throws aviation fuel on the smoking rumor fires, like they need it.

Please wake me when the new iPod is released and not before....:p

Do not even mention the newton, oops, sorry.

------
weev

testnull

Mar 5, 2003, 06:48 AM

For those about to jump all over iPDA, please remember that Sakoman was at Apple prior to when Newton turned into a PDA. It was still a semi-desktop computer when he left!

zac4mac

Mar 5, 2003, 07:11 AM

Not sure about that last post.
My MP120 is an alarm clock.
On the other hand, my MP2100 is more than a PDA.

I want a new Newton that works with OS X.

Trimix

Mar 5, 2003, 07:35 AM

What is so wrong with wanting a Newton ?
The way Apple is conceiving new ideas this Newton surely would outshine and outlast the competition ?

Wash!!

Mar 5, 2003, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by Trimix
What is so wrong with wanting a Newton ?
The way Apple is conceiving new ideas this Newton surely would outshine and outlast the competition ?

I still have my 130 at still runs circles around the Palm/mini-winblows PDAs the only thing is missing is the usb port to talk to osx. Please apple make new newton.:D

cubist

Mar 5, 2003, 08:17 AM

My guess is he's been wanting out since Palm bought Be. I never understood that acquisition; I suppose Palm wanted to make Be into PalmOS 5. Steve's probably had almost nothing to do since the acquisition.

It's probably not logical to infer anything about a PDA here. Steve's a talented manager who wanted a job where he could accomplish something.

If I wanted to surmise that his going to Apple had anything to do with any particular product strategy or vision, it would be a highly enhanced C++ version of the Carbon API, somewhat like Be's C++ API. Programmers are not enthusiastic about Cocoa because of Objective-C, and Carbon looks old and clunky.

scem0

Mar 5, 2003, 08:41 AM

I maintain the stance that a PDA would be a bad idea, so would
a phone. But if they make one of those, I hope they make the
phone. :o :rolleyes: ;)

Trimix

Mar 5, 2003, 08:51 AM

In reply to scem0

Had we had the same discussion two years ago and we had heard a rumor of an i-pod I would have taken your stance and would be eating my words now -
however Apple can make us go WOW, and I feel, were they to bring out a pda, the Apple UEBER-pda, there would be a market.
I just recently bought a new mobile phone and I am amazed how they are moving closer and closer to becoming useable pdas.
Apple seem to be active in a lot of areas that when destilled into a product could really result in a device which could combine the best of an i-pod, a mobile phone and a Newton. Why would that be bad for Apple ? Do you feel there is no market ?

dhunwick

Mar 5, 2003, 09:00 AM

I was talking about this before MacWorld rather almost insisting that there would be an iPad sort of thing in the works for Jan. Alas I was wrong about the timing but I tell you it's coming. A hybrid of the Newton / iPod / tablet thingie!

Trimix

Mar 5, 2003, 09:06 AM

My VISA-card is waiting:p

Silver Dragon

Mar 5, 2003, 09:19 AM

Lets take a closer look at this...

1 - Sakoman worked for Be, NOT Palm... He didn't work for Palm until they purchased Be's assets... So don't look at him as a Palm employee, look at his as a Be employee that was displaced for a while at Palm.

2 - Apple has clearly stated that they do not believe in the PDA market, and to be honest, I think they are right. If you want a PDA, go get yourself a Sony Ericsson P800 phone/camera/PDA combo.

3 - Has anyone noticed that Apple is snatching up all the old Be employees? BeOS had some very, very advanced features that were years ahead of their time. If Apple can get those features into OS X we will have a beautiful work of art that will push Windows even closer to the ice age.

Just my $0.02

MacBerkeley

Mar 5, 2003, 09:30 AM

The discussion seems focused on Sakoman in a potential hardware role, but his boss will be Avie Tevanian. My understanding is that Tevanian is the Senior VP of Software Engineering whereas Jon Rubenstein is the Senior VP of Hardware Engineering. It seems Sakoman will be working on some interesting software this time around.

achmafooma

Mar 5, 2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by cubist
My guess is he's been wanting out since Palm bought Be. I never understood that acquisition; I suppose Palm wanted to make Be into PalmOS 5.
Maybe Palm intends to combine the two into a desktop operating system. Woohoo, Palm OS on your PC!

In all seriousness, I never quite understood it either - except perhaps that people with experience making advanced operating systems may be able to help make Palm OS into an advanced operating system.

As far as the actual news here, interesting that Sakoman is re-joining Apple. I'm not at all convinced this has anything to do with a Tablet/PDA/whatever in the works, my hunch is more that he left thinking the ship [Apple] was sinking and now that the ship has recovered he's coming back.

Though it wasn't long after the guy from the Gap (I forget his name) joined Apple that the retail stores were launched, but I figure this guy is more Be than Palm. I somehow doubt that Mac OS XI will change core OS's from BSD to Be ;-)

Silver Dragon

Mar 5, 2003, 09:38 AM

I somehow doubt that Mac OS XI will change core OS's from BSD to Be ;-) [/B]

BeOS was a BSD Unix core too, different file system though (then again, so is Mac OS X under HFS+, but BeOS required BeFS).

Zaren

Mar 5, 2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by zac4mac
Not sure about that last post.
My MP120 is an alarm clock.
On the other hand, my MP2100 is more than a PDA.

I want a new Newton that works with OS X.

You do know that there is now osX native software that you can use to transfer files to your Newton (even over tcp/ip!), as well as syncing software (sync iCal to your Newton's calendar!). Nothing quite as robust as good old NCU, in that there's no osX native backup software, but give the geeks time... after all, you can now use compact flash cards and Memory Sticks as storage for Newtons, so anything's possible! :D

dongmin

Mar 5, 2003, 09:44 AM

heh, this guy's been part of so many different product groups, we could be guessing til monkeys fly out of my butt and we still wouldn't have a clue. He's probably just an all-around techie genius type that Apple wants around for the Next Big Thing. PDAs, iTablet, etc. are all yesterday's news.

I'm just happy to see that Apple has become THE magnet for creative engineering talent these days. Just like in the 80s. I have a lot of engineer friends who used to laugh at Apple but are now seriously considering it as a potential employer. This bodes well for the future of Apple.

clith

Mar 5, 2003, 09:51 AM

I worked as a commercial BeOS developer a few years ago (working on VideoWave for BeOS) and had occasion to meet Steve and get to know him a bit. He's a very cool guy, and I'm really happy he's working at Apple. I thought his posting at Palm never quite fit.

Based on this postings assertion that he is reporting to Avie, my guess is that he's going to head up a software team, not hardware, as Avie is a software guy, not hardware. But that's only a guess.

dhunwick

Mar 5, 2003, 09:56 AM

Perhaps the PDA we know of today is dead but look what Apple did with the walkman! I think we are looking at a device that is like a PDA but Apple will find a way to reinvent the whole catagory! Look further and bigger than the regular old PDA concept.

vanillamike

Mar 5, 2003, 10:04 AM

Well is it possible that he could be writting software to run on the iTablet, PDA, thingamajig.

Mike

rainman::|:|

Mar 5, 2003, 10:16 AM

okay guys, don't you think that if Apple was going to make a PDA/whatever/tablet, they would have had it in development for a long time? If they started work now, they might be finished for Christmas, 2005. By then I expect signifigant changes to the PDA world.

it's just not going to happen. hiring someone who sort-of used to work for Palm this late in the game for PDA development would be unwise.

Probably it has to do with some specific future project that we cannot anticipate, if he was hired for one specific purpose at all...

pnw

achmafooma

Mar 5, 2003, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Silver Dragon
BeOS was a BSD Unix core too, different file system though (then again, so is Mac OS X under HFS+, but BeOS required BeFS).
LoL - and I thought I knew everything! I wasn't aware of that, I had gotten the impression somewhere that BeOS was it's own, non-Unix OS (as in how Classic Mac OS was).

Thanks for the correction, and for the new knowledge.

Silver Dragon

Mar 5, 2003, 11:05 AM

I used to be a big BeOS geek... I loved the way they did things. It was SO fast.

Oh well... Mac OS X is the next best thing. Get me meta searching from the file system and I'm happy :)

clith

Mar 5, 2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Silver Dragon
BeOS was a BSD Unix core too, different file system though (then again, so is Mac OS X under HFS+, but BeOS required BeFS).

BeOS was not built on BSD at all. The kernel was completely proprietary and closed. This was one of the (very few) things I did not like about BeOS. Although it gave BeOS the power to be very low-latency, it also hobbled it in terms of multi-user support and porting Linux/Unix apps over. There was a POSIX layer, but it was a very thin one and didn't hold up well.

Silver Dragon

Mar 5, 2003, 11:19 AM

It was built on BSD just as Mac OS X is built on BSD. Neither use a true BSD Kernel... But the basics are the same.

Let me re-word this so it's a bit better... BeOS was based on BSD but was not BSD Unix. They took a different approach than NeXT.

Mac OS X is also based on BSD Unix but in reality it's Darwin Unix.

I think we're stuck on semantics here.

Silver Dragon

Mar 5, 2003, 11:33 AM

Ok, I'm 70% wrong actually... Sorry for the misinformation I should have done research first (I have not used BeOS in ages... For some reason I got my facts screwed up).

BeOS is not based on BSD it is inspired by it, but not based on it. Mac OS X is based on BSD (although it is still technically Darwin Unix). For some reason I remembered BeOS being based on BSD... But they just stole from BSD instead :P

Sorry everyone, my fault.

GigaWire

Mar 5, 2003, 11:56 AM

1 - Sakoman worked for Be, NOT Palm... He didn't work for Palm until they purchased Be's assets... So don't look at him as a Palm employee, look at his as a Be employee that was displaced for a while at Palm.

And before that he worked for Apple developing products like the Newton. And after his stint at Be he DID work for Palm.

Apple has to get a PDA on the market. But will it be something like the stuff out there? Certainly not.

DreaminDirector

Mar 5, 2003, 12:33 PM

I never actually used the BeOS, but after all of this talk, does anyone know where I could go to get more info on it? Sounds like it had quite of bit of innovation behind it.

Silver Dragon

Mar 5, 2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by GigaWire
And before that he worked for Apple developing products like the Newton. And after his stint at Be he DID work for Palm.

Apple has to get a PDA on the market. But will it be something like the stuff out there? Certainly not.

No, no, no... Great, he devolped Netwon... Nice. Yes he did work for PalmSOURCE the creators of the Palm OS; however, he really only worked there because Palm bought Be's assets. Now listen carefully... There's a 99.999% chance that had Palm not purchased BeOS he would still be with Be today. I think I was very clear in saying that although his paycheck comes from Palm, it's only through the sale of Be that this happened.

An Apple PDA will be a flop. There are a handful of people who really, really want one and then they will go the way of the cube. Market data shows PDA purchases DOWN. I used to love PDAs, but I always ended up using paper again... Even when I had my Newton 2100. This is a bad, bad market for Apple to get in to. I hope they stay clear, and being that the CEO, COO, and CTO have all said "We will not create a PDA" I think there's a pretty good chance of that. Here ya go... [[[Kick of Reality]]]

Silver Dragon

Mar 5, 2003, 02:14 PM

"During his Be days, Sakoman worked on a project called Stinger, a bundle of software designed to run on Net appliances. Widely anticipated as the next big thing, Net appliances was used to cover a variety of devices that offered Internet connectivity and its benefits - email, multimedia and so on - but in a more convenient, portable and flexible package. These appliances failed to materialise, and Stinger was quietly forgotten.

How does this relate to what's going on at Apple now? Sakoman hinted at an answer back in 1999.

'Conceptually,' he said, 'the Stinger OS could be used in an entertainment device that buys and downloads songs from the Net, records music onto new CDs, and plays streaming audio content from the Net.'

Which rather neatly ties in with the LA Times' report yesterday, saying that Apple is priming an online music service, which will in all likelihood enable you to buy and downloads songs from the Net, records music onto new CDs..."

clith

Mar 5, 2003, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Silver Dragon
Mac OS X is based on BSD (although it is still technically Darwin Unix). For some reason I remembered BeOS being based on BSD... But they just stole from BSD instead :P
Not to be a nag, but.. :-) Darwin (MacOS X's kernel) is not "stolen" from BSD, it is a *branch* of BSD. Specifically, FreeBSD. Take a look at this page (http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/unix.html) and you'll see that Apple is quite up-front about it:
Jaguar integrates features from state-of-the-art FreeBSD 4.4
I'm sure Apple will continue to track FreeBSD over future updates. They hired (http://digitalmass.boston.com/news/globe_tech/upgrade/2001/1213.html) the former head (http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=2837) of the FreeBSD core development team, after all.

LrdMystery00

Mar 5, 2003, 02:37 PM

Hello,

The problem with an all in one electronic (phone/pda/MP3 player) is that it is hard to use that for anything while you are talking on the phone.

How do you take notes, add an apt to your calendar, etc, when you are talking on your phone/pda/mp3 player?

I think there will be a need for 2 devices, that should talk to each other (such as a phone & iPod) via bluetooth (or 802.11g, 802.11e, etc) so that information can be quickly shared or accessed.

Now, what does a PDA do? It holds contact information, appointments, notes, and some of the newer ones, graphics and music.

What does the iPod not do of the above list? You can not view graphics, but it can hold graphics (or anything else for that matter, it is a firewire harddrive).

So, the logical update to an iPod would be larger, color display, and Bluetooth (or other wireless connectivity), besides the larger drive itself.

Now, where is the balancing point of small, easy to carry device vs adding features. If you make the wheel smaller, you can make the screen larger. You could also make it slightly wider, to add room for an antenna and circuitry for bluetooth. You could make the battery slightly larger, this would increase weight.

Now, combine this with the new enclosure rumor (5x7x1) and you could see something like an iPod, but that lets you watch videos.
That is ALMOST a size to consider a slot loading DVD, but then again, maybe not (need to get my hands on a PowerBook G4 to checkout the size of the slotloading DVD drive).

Also consider the new MPEG4/DVD playback chipsets for settop players, and I am sure you could cram that into a small inclosure.

There are cellphones that playback MPEG4 video, so even at the iPod size (or slightly larger), you could possibly playback video.

Of course, there would need to be some application like iTunes is for music, or iPhoto is for pictures. Maybe add those features to iDVD? or add them to iTunes?

Anyway, speculation is alot of fun.

As for this specific guy (Sakoman), I would say he is there for programming interface first, and maybe secondary for mobile applications.

As Apple adds more Unix (Linux) interoperability (like the X11 SDK), this lets some using that OS (Unix/Linux) to move to Mac OSX.

Maybe Apple will do a switcher campaign for those who have moved from Unix flavors to OSX? "I swapped Xs, from linuX to MacOSX".

Just my comments.
Lord Mystery

GigaWire

Mar 5, 2003, 03:11 PM

No, no, no... Great, he devolped Netwon... Nice. Yes he did work for PalmSOURCE the creators of the Palm OS; however, he really only worked there because Palm bought Be's assets. Now listen carefully... There's a 99.999% chance that had Palm not purchased BeOS he would still be with Be today. I think I was very clear in saying that although his paycheck comes from Palm, it's only through the sale of Be that this happened.

[[Kick of Reality]] But Palm did buy Be, so who cares what woulda, coulda, shoulda happened. And Sakoman was not part of the buyout. He signed a contract with Palm and he worked for PALM by choice, not by bondage as you imply.

The point is the day of desktops is numbered. With the rollout of Access Points, the usefullness of a PDA has increased. As those access points expand, they will become even more useful. What sucks about a PDA are styli and cramped keyboards, cramped screens, among other software issues. The future of the desktop computer as an e-mail/internet/word processing device is very limited. Apple has to develop a viable portable option to stay ahead and competitive, a step that was taken at MWSF this year.

Apple will rollout a PDA, but it will not be like any PDA currently on the market. And Apple will not call it a PDA, just as car companies differentiate between SUV and SAV.

The future is in mobility.

Silver Dragon

Mar 5, 2003, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by clith
[B]Not to be a nag, but.. :-) Darwin (MacOS X's kernel) is not "stolen" from BSD, it is a *branch* of BSD. Specifically, FreeBSD. Take a look at this page (http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/unix.html) and you'll see that Apple is quite up-front about it:

No, you misread the post. I was talking about BeOS not Mac OS X. Please re-read (it was worded funny, so it's not your fault).

-SD

Silver Dragon

Mar 5, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by GigaWire
[[Kick of Reality]] But Palm did buy Be, so who cares what woulda, coulda, shoulda happened. And Sakoman was not part of the buyout. He signed a contract with Palm and he worked for PALM by choice, not by bondage as you imply.

The point is the day of desktops is numbered. With the rollout of Access Points, the usefullness of a PDA has increased. As those access points expand, they will become even more useful. What sucks about a PDA are styli and cramped keyboards, cramped screens, among other software issues. The future of the desktop computer as an e-mail/internet/word processing device is very limited. Apple has to develop a viable portable option to stay ahead and competitive, a step that was taken at MWSF this year.

Apple will rollout a PDA, but it will not be like any PDA currently on the market. And Apple will not call it a PDA, just as car companies differentiate between SUV and SAV.

The future is in mobility.

A few points here.

1 - He may not have had a choice. I know that if our company is bought out, under contract our CEO and COO will have to move with it. They are both tied to the company. Who says it was his choice? Business 101.

2 - How many people from Apple have to say that they will not build a PDA, or that they don't like the handheld market will it take for you to believe that they are serious? And they were right, according to IDC, PDA numbers are DOWN (I believ it's 14%) and continuing to fall. Nielson/NetRatings show the same thing. Apple does not like the PDA market, they don't like the phone market (listen to a shareholders call). They won't do it. Period. That's that.

The future is *not* in PDAs, that market is dying. They are a cool toy, but most can get by without one. I believe that the future is in better laptops and wireless connectivity to new media devices. TabletPC is cool... I'm still 50/50 on it. PDA, virtually dead in 5 years.

pkkrusty

Mar 5, 2003, 04:04 PM

Anyone else think that the inherent problems with PDAs that were discussed above mean that other methods of data entry/display will come to the forefront? Specifically a type of heads up display that projects data into the eye, or uses an semi-transparent OLED display (a la IBM commercial a couple years ago)

And whatever happened to all the hype about virtual reality displays/technology? I haven't heard a peep from that corner of the market in ages.

Yes, this is off topic, but doesn't it have potential for Apple to pursue as an alternative to the classic PDA?