PDA

View Full Version : Apple 'Charts' Spreadsheet Application?


MacRumors
Jul 9, 2006, 11:12 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Thinksecret reported (http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0607charts.html) last week on a Spreadsheet application due from Apple in the next revision if iWork.

iWork '07 is expected to be released at Macworld San Francisco in January 2007. The newest addition to Apple's productivity suite is currently dubbed "Charts". Charts is said to be a consumer-oriented spreadsheet application, rather than a full competitor to Microsoft's Excel application.

There has long been speculation that Apple was developing a spreadsheet component to the iWork suite. Most rumors centered around (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/06/20050616145521.shtml) a trademark filed for the name "Numbers" back in 2005.

Apple's iWork suite (http://guides.macrumors.com/iWork) is the successor to the long-running AppleWorks (http://guides.macrumors.com/AppleWorks) office suite that did include both spreadsheet and database functionality.

jonat8
Jul 9, 2006, 11:18 AM
mmm.. think I'll stick with Excel. iWork needs a spreadsheet app, though. But what's a "consumer-orientated" spreadsheet app?

Apple need to do a really good job to beat Excel, you have to hand it to Microsoft on this one, IMO.

TimUSCA
Jul 9, 2006, 11:26 AM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.

supremedesigner
Jul 9, 2006, 11:31 AM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.

That's why it's called "competitor".

wmmk
Jul 9, 2006, 11:32 AM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.
That's not fair to say. This spreadsheet app is not targeted at excel users. If all spreadsheet apps are just copying excel, then all computers are copies of the first mainframe. Anyway, excel is just a type of database that has a nic GUI based front end. There have certainly been front ends for databases before excel, AFAIK.

mmm.. think I'll stick with Excel. iWork needs a spreadsheet app, though. But what's a "consumer-orientated" spreadsheet app?

a spreadsheet app so that you can calculate the amount of time pend on vacation;)
no, probably marketed at schools and students, maybe people who want spreadsheets, but aren't running corporations that need every single excel feature. id certainly buy this.

bob_hearn
Jul 9, 2006, 11:36 AM
I find it funny how MicroSuck is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

Excuse me? Are you suggesting Microsoft invented the spreadsheet?? (Or, for that matter presentation software?)

In case you hadn't noticed, spreadsheets have been around for a long, long time. Apple itself had a spreadsheet component in the old AppleWorks, as well as in ClarisWorks (now the new AppleWorks). It is an obvious missing piece in iWork.

Naturally there will need to be a certain amount of Excel compatibility in any Apple spreadsheet offering; that simply reflects current market realities. But please tell me what is innovative about Excel, that you expect Apple to copy. Then please look again at the countless cases of Microsoft copying someone else's innovation, or in many cases buying and squashing it.

richinspace
Jul 9, 2006, 11:43 AM
I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

:eek: Goodmorning TimUSCA! Where were you born?
Remember "Lotus" and "Aldus Persuasion"?

Platform
Jul 9, 2006, 11:55 AM
mmm.. think I'll stick with Excel. iWork needs a spreadsheet app, though. But what's a "consumer-orientated" spreadsheet app?

Apple need to do a really good job to beat Excel, you have to hand it to Microsoft on this one, IMO.

Consumer = Not Pro ;)

It also says that Apple is not thinking of competing with Excel, so all they have to do is make an app that can add etc.

Thats all most need, and of course in great Apple style with ease of use and aqua feel :D

macridah
Jul 9, 2006, 11:57 AM
Excuse me? Are you suggesting Microsoft invented the spreadsheet?? (Or, for that matter presentation software?)

In case you hadn't noticed, spreadsheets have been around for a long, long time. Apple itself had a spreadsheet component in the old AppleWorks, as well as in ClarisWorks (now the new AppleWorks). It is an obvious missing piece in iWork.


Totally agree. I don't think apple is a "copy cat" in this case.

StuPidQPid
Jul 9, 2006, 12:03 PM
Excuse me? Are you suggesting Microsoft invented the spreadsheet?? (Or, for that matter presentation software?)

In case you hadn't noticed, spreadsheets have been around for a long, long time. Apple itself had a spreadsheet component in the old AppleWorks, as well as in ClarisWorks (now the new AppleWorks). It is an obvious missing piece in iWork.

Naturally there will need to be a certain amount of Excel compatibility in any Apple spreadsheet offering; that simply reflects current market realities. But please tell me what is innovative about Excel, that you expect Apple to copy. Then please look again at the countless cases of Microsoft copying someone else's innovation, or in many cases buying and squashing it.

FYI: Microsoft may not have invented the spreadsheet, but its first version of Excel was actually developed for the Mac way back in 1985. Talk about a role reversal...
Interestingly, I did a search on Wikipedia, and the first spreadsheet program developed for personal computers was called VisiCalc. And guess what personal computer is was developed for...

... yep, the Apple II ...

iBrow
Jul 9, 2006, 12:13 PM
Does anybody think that the full version of iWorks 07 will ship with all brand new Macs when it comes out?

Bad Beaver
Jul 9, 2006, 12:28 PM
:eek: Goodmorning TimUSCA! Where were you born?
Remember "Lotus" and "Aldus Persuasion"?

Rather ask "when" he was born. I guess certain things were just bought out of the collective memory by M$. It's the worst case, people can't even remember when it was different.

animefan_1
Jul 9, 2006, 12:28 PM
Does anybody think that the full version of iWorks 07 will ship with all brand new Macs when it comes out?

I think it's possible for the consumer computers (like Appleworks used to be). The "Mac Pro" and MacBook Pro will have it only as an add-on.

treblah
Jul 9, 2006, 12:29 PM
I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VisiCalc

Later, more powerful clones of VisiCalc were released including SuperCalc, Microsoft's MultiPlan, Borland's Quattro Pro, Lotus 1-2-3, Microsoft Excel, OpenOffice.org Calc, KSpread and the spreadsheet modules of AppleWorks and gnumeric. The first clone of VisiCalc to become very successful in the market was Lotus 1-2-3, also for the IBM PC. Due to the aforementioned lack of a patent, none of the developers of early successors of VisiCalc had to pay any royalties to VisiCorp.

BlizzardBomb
Jul 9, 2006, 12:35 PM
I've purposely held back from buying iWork + iLife '06 because I didn't think there was enough for me to justify upgrading from '05. I use Pages charts and graphs a lot more, because it is more integrated, but if it means full Excel compatibility, bring it on! :p

i3iz
Jul 9, 2006, 12:38 PM
Excel is a program. Charts is a program.

Spotlight is a feature. M$ crap wannabe search is a feature. Transparency is a feature.

Copying features is different than creating a competing program. Let alone that M$ did not invent the spreadsheet.

risc
Jul 9, 2006, 12:46 PM
Sweet so by iWork 2009 we should actually have something worth using. This releasing a new app each year to force an upgrade is a PITA. Hurry up Microsoft and release the UB version of Office v.X so I can remove iWork from my machines.

macthorough
Jul 9, 2006, 12:48 PM
does this give any clues???? i usually look for stuff like this casue new product hints pop up here.

US-CA-Cupertino EMC Engineer Apple Computer, Inc. APPLY
US-CA-Cupertino EMC Design Engineer iPod Products Apple Computer, Inc. APPLY
US-CA-Cupertino Engineering Program Manager Apple Computer, Inc. APPLY
US-CA-Cupertino Engineering Project Specialist Apple Computer, Inc. APPLY
US-CA-Cupertino Engineering Project Manager - Build Manager Apple Computer, Inc. APPLY
US-CA-Cupertino Sr. Optical Engineering Scientist Apple Computer, Inc. APPLY
US-IL-Vernon Hills Interface Software Engineer AmerisourceBergen Corporation APPLY
US-NJ-Fair Lawn IMMEDIATE OPENING - ENTRY LEVEL IT DEPARTMENT Depasquale Salon Systems APPLY
US-CA-Santa Clara Video Software Engineer - Mac NVIDIA Corporation APPLY

macnews
Jul 9, 2006, 12:49 PM
I remember playing around with visicalc when I was in grade school. Even made a grade sheet for my dad, a high school math teacher. Only problem was it wasn't practical. The only computers were in the lab or the one they had to share in the math office. He would normally enter grades in the classroom and update his grade book during down times.

So yes, Apple would not be copying MS. Matter of fact, until about 1997/98ish excel was considered the inferior spreadsheet program. Lotus used to be the spreadsheet application of choice, MS just shoved excel down everyone's throat by bundling Word with Excel in the "office suite". Then it became a matter of economics for everyone. Why pay hundreds for another spreadsheet program when I already paid hundreds for this word processor and got a spreadsheet with it?

I would like to see some spreadsheet program in iWork. Keynote is far different from PowerPoint and makes me stand out in a crowd or PP persentations. I often hear "how did you do that in PowerPoint?" A spreadsheet app, integrated with the other apps could make you stand out in a crowd of other "me too".

tjwett
Jul 9, 2006, 12:49 PM
absolutely Microsoft did not "invent" the spreadsheet by any means.

also, "Numbers" already made its appearance in iWork '06. the Numbers pane is part of the Inspector for a Table in Keynote and Pages. it's where you setup the math and formula editor for the table.

BoyBach
Jul 9, 2006, 12:50 PM
If this is true then I will be upgrading from '05 to '07. I'm currently using Appleworks for my basic 'spreadsheeting', but it crashes now & again and just "feels old and slow."

jackc
Jul 9, 2006, 12:51 PM
Does anybody think that the full version of iWorks 07 will ship with all brand new Macs when it comes out?

I doubt it.

xUKHCx
Jul 9, 2006, 12:51 PM
I have been waiting for Charts or Numbers before i can totally switch from Office. I use it heavily for writing lab reports, i have actually switched to Keynote as it is far better than Powerpoint. Pages for my purposes is not really up to much, it is just crying out for a spreadsheet application. Hopefully this application will fully support applescript, as this would save me so much time.

Just a shame that it wont come out before i need to do my design project. Although Word is better than Pages for what i do, i still have to waste far too much time messing about with Word. Pages has come along way since i first bought it. I cant see myself fully switching for another couple of years when both Pages and Numbers have matured.

MikeTheC
Jul 9, 2006, 12:51 PM
Hello All!

One of the things I've complained about for years is the lack of perspective that most people have due to most present users of computers coming of age or cutting their teeth on technology in the era of Microsoft the monopoly.

It'll be a sad day indeed when the last of us who owned and used a computer before Microsoft became a monopoly dies; the world needs the sense of perspective we can bring to it.

As others here have said, Microsoft is hardly the pioneer of the spreadsheet, or anything else.

If you want to take the tone that producing a product which is of the same category as another app (such as, for example, spreadsheets) is just a copycat or a thief, then you have to go back to VisiCalc and realize that everyone since that time is a copycat, including (and most especially) Microsoft.

ibook30
Jul 9, 2006, 01:04 PM
I hope this is a step towards a pro spreadsheet app. I wouldn't pay money for anything less than excel, and couldn't use anything less for my work.

With that said, I think this is a step in the right direction - and hope that eventually there will be strong choices in the office software arena.

slackersonly
Jul 9, 2006, 01:05 PM
google has a free speadsheet program out recently and it is a good option for free consumer level apps.
my guess is that apple isnt ready to compete with office yet or may never want to compete directly with it. however, they do still need/like being able to offer it on mac so they have to tip toe when they launch charts, ie. consumer, and not a direct competitor with excel, etc.

Demoman
Jul 9, 2006, 01:11 PM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.

You are promoting revisionist history. Apple had a spreadsheet before MS. Excel was a late arrival to the spreadsheet party. If you want to be educated in the truth of the matter - try this link:

http://www.bricklin.com/firstspreadsheetquestion.htm

The reason Excel got its' large market share was the same reason Word did. MS GAVE it away with new computers. Then they charged a very small price over an extended period of time. Good-bye Lotus, Good-bye Borland, Good-bye competition. Now we pay ~425 per user and we have no options. That my friend is the MS way.

A decent spreadsheet added to iWork is going to be a big selling point in the corporate world. iWork - $79 or Office $425, easy choice for me. The vast majority of users only use about 35-50% of the features in Excel or Word anyway.

bob_hearn
Jul 9, 2006, 01:13 PM
I don't suppose anyone else here remembers Spreadbase, from Objective Software, ca. 1993. Now that was an innovative spreadsheet program. Too bad it didn't catch on.

EricNau
Jul 9, 2006, 01:16 PM
If Apple is not developing this to compete with Excel, "Charts" isn't going to be good enough. Who would use Charts if there was a better option? ...That would be stupid.

If this is the case, Apple shouldn't bother at all.

bob_hearn
Jul 9, 2006, 01:19 PM
You are promoting revisionist history. Apple had a spreadsheet before MS. Excel was a late arrival to the spreadsheet party. ...
The reason Excel got its' large market share was the same reason Word did. MS GAVE it away with new computers. Then they charged a very small price over an extended period of time. Good-bye Lotus, Good-bye Borland, Good-bye competition. Now we pay ~425 per user and we have no options. That my friend is the MS way.

Now, that also sounds like revisionist history to me. I've never been a Windows user, but did Microsoft ever give away Excel or Word??? Doesn't sound like history as I remember it. In the pre-web days, the business model was simpler: you sell software to make money. Actually most software was much more expensive back then.

My experience, at least on the Mac side, was that Microsoft acquired its productivity software dominance the old-fashioned way, by never giving up, and lots of backroom dirty tricks and blackmailing of competitors.

Avicdar
Jul 9, 2006, 01:21 PM
I expect this will be about as well received as Pages.

Reach your own conclusion on that one. I have it and never use it. Its just too darn 'odd'.

macnews
Jul 9, 2006, 01:31 PM
If Apple is not developing this to compete with Excel, "Charts" isn't going to be good enough. Who would use Charts if there was a better option? ...That would be stupid.

Home users who don't want to spend $200-$300 on office just to get a word processor. If they can get pages, more home oriented and works with .doc and includes a spreadsheet that works with excel for $100 why not?

I do agree however, pages is a bit "odd" to work with as a word processor. It does newsletters nice, but what if I just want to type a paper? I have to claim ingnorance as I really have not played around engough to know better. Perhaps it will do a nice "paper" look, just feels odd.

p0intblank
Jul 9, 2006, 01:32 PM
More software from Apple? Okay in my book! :)

skyle
Jul 9, 2006, 01:39 PM
Let me guess what's next: a database component (Filemaker Lite?). I suppose the drawing component and painting component from Appleworks will show up in iLife at some point. Uuh ... yawn.

jcrowe
Jul 9, 2006, 01:49 PM
If Apple is not developing this to compete with Excel, "Charts" isn't going to be good enough. Who would use Charts if there was a better option? ...That would be stupid.

If this is the case, Apple shouldn't bother at all.

People who want to use a spreadsheet for simple uses, which frankly represents most users. Excel certainly has more power than a large majority of users ever need and it represents the only useful part of Microsoft Office, IMO. However, it amounts to overkill and frankly, it's sort of not a big deal, even as "state of the art" in spreadsheets because spreadsheets' usefullness is overblown anyway. I was forced to use MS Office for years when I worked for a large computer manufacturer. Word was and remains an abomination, getting worse with every release. But Excel has its uses, though people tended to use it for more things that were really not particularly suitable for spreadsheet apps. That said, it should be interesting to see whether Apple's entry has better graphing functionality than Excel.

Respectfully,
The Devil

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 01:56 PM
Does anybody think that the full version of iWorks 07 will ship with all brand new Macs when it comes out?


I would say NO! Apple has just made a nice presentation program & a simple word processor & called it iWork. So far it seems just to put enough pressure on MS to get them to keep making a Mac version of Office. That being done for the next 5 years, iWork is now only there to bring in some extra money from those Apple die hards that buy anything Apple. A spreadsheet program would help sell a few more copies.

But then again spreadsheet programs are not liked or used by as many as they once were. The original VisCalc was a major player in helping give real business reasons for purchasing the Apple or Radio Shack Model 1 & 2.

Excel was MS's second or so spreadsheet program, the second for the Mac from them. It has always been better than any of the competition on the Mac. So after a while everyone stopped trying, including Apple. AppleWorks/ClairisWorks had a good enough spreadsheet module for the home & simple business user. The same has been done by many other companies. Even the better ones have not stayed around. Excel has been around for nearly 22 years & still no real competition for the very serious business user. I know that my income tax program would have to have great changes & features eliminated if I was to use a different spreadsheet program.

I have many old spreadsheet programs for my Mac. Time has shown that they for the most part have just been a waste of money & time. Because of the lack of any real competition for Excel on the Mac, upgrades were few & far between in the early years. These programs may have helped a little. We need a good push of competition on the business end against MS Excel. Most of the things that I do in my second quarter of Excel & Word training at schoold must be done with the Windows version. This is either because the Mac version either does not have that feature at all or the feature is so weak that it is not there for any but the simplist use.

Apple has the ability to give Excel some competition, but like most I believe that if they add either Numbers or Charts to the iWork group of programs, it will be a weak spreadsheet. Just look at Pages. Many thought that Apple would develope it into a much better program & give some competition with Word. Keynote seems to be the only program that Apples seems to be doing any work on.

Would I purchase iWork again if Apple added a spreadsheet program to the group, (suite seems to indicate more than there is or at least more effort than has been put into the programs), probably not. Apple has not had a good track record on anything other than their OS for staying the long fight. Then if you look at the OS, it has had a few major changes. So have they really stayed the course even on that one?

Bill the TaxMan

w_parietti22
Jul 9, 2006, 01:57 PM
Why doesnt apple bundel iWork with all new Macs? it would make so much more sense and would keep people from buying MS office.

edit: ok... someone already said that.. :o

EagerDragon
Jul 9, 2006, 01:59 PM
That would be a fine addition, however I need something like Visio but with programability so that actions against the objects can be assigned some code to do something useful like calculate something, animate, etc. Also objects could be complex (contain other objects and act like containers). Think adding software to a computers, each simulated program can run and interact with others and are contained in the computer.

To give you an example... imagine diagraming the plumming of a house or bld, with sources and sinks, faucets, etc. You can calculate the flows and presures at different points and re-route the flows by closing and opening different valves. Imagine the tracks for a train service, same principle, route the trains to different rails by trowing switches, authomate the whole thing and use it for simulations. Great way to test ideas. Now convert it to a movie and burn your simulation movie with iDVD and give it to the customer.

Now that would be great!

Who wants to build it?

~Shard~
Jul 9, 2006, 02:04 PM
I think this "consumer-oriented" spreadsheet app could have some potential if Apple executes correctly. Excel is powerful, (my favorite app in the Office suite), yet overkill for many users. Heck, most users don't even know it's overkill for them because they are not even aware of the power of Excel!

So, perhaps Apple will do with Charts what they did with Pages - instead of giving the consumer a "bare" word processing app, they give you templates to work with. Perhaps in Charts, instead of plain-old spreadsheets, Apple will provide templates to address the average consumer's uses for spreadsheets and assist them in creating what it is that they require. Spreadsheet templates to help track monthly bill payments, templates for your kids' sports teams or fantasy football office pools, who knows... I know one thing with Excel, is that it takes a bit of work to maker a slick looking spreadsheet where you don't see the gridlines, the fonts are different, images are embedded, etc. - in other words, it doesn;t really look like a spreadsheet even though it is. ;) Perhaps Apple will make this type of formatting easier with Charts. :cool:

Regardless, nice to see Apple fleshing out the iWork suite some more - I hope this does indeed happen as the rumor states.

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 02:08 PM
You are promoting revisionist history. Apple had a spreadsheet before MS. Excel was a late arrival to the spreadsheet party. If you want to be educated in the truth of the matter - try this link:

http://www.bricklin.com/firstspreadsheetquestion.htm

The reason Excel got its' large market share was the same reason Word did. MS GAVE it away with new computers. Then they charged a very small price over an extended period of time. Good-bye Lotus, Good-bye Borland, Good-bye competition. Now we pay ~425 per user and we have no options. That my friend is the MS way.

A decent spreadsheet added to iWork is going to be a big selling point in the corporate world. iWork - $79 or Office $425, easy choice for me. The vast majority of users only use about 35-50% of the features in Excel or Word anyway.

I wonder if many users use even the lower of your 35-50% of what is in Word or Excel. I thought that I nknew a lot about Excel. That was before I wrote my ouw income tax prep program. Now I believe that my percentage of what Excel can do may be 10-15% if even that much. Before breaking the program into 50+ parts, it was over 15,000 lines long & 150-200 columns wide.

Bill the TaxMan

chairguru22
Jul 9, 2006, 02:11 PM
whats a "consumer oriented" spreadsheet app? i dont want to dumbed down excel. whats the point of that?

Demoman
Jul 9, 2006, 02:25 PM
Now, that also sounds like revisionist history to me. I've never been a Windows user, but did Microsoft ever give away Excel or Word??? Doesn't sound like history as I remember it. In the pre-web days, the business model was simpler: you sell software to make money. Actually most software was much more expensive back then.

My experience, at least on the Mac side, was that Microsoft acquired its productivity software dominance the old-fashioned way, by never giving up, and lots of backroom dirty tricks and blackmailing of competitors.

Bob,

I have been in Micros since 1982. My first IBM PC had a single 180K single density floppy and a whopping 64K of RAM. Over these 24 years, I have only worked for two companies and have done the vast majority of the purchasing. I know what I am talking about.

I do not remember exactly what year MS bundled Word and Excel and called it a Suite, probably 1990-1991. But when they did, almost all of my vendors and their competitors were offering the office suite free with their computers. I remember having a minor revolt with many of my users. They used Lotus 123, DBase IV, R:Rbase, Samba, Wordperfect, AmiPro, Quattro Pro, etc. I had to convince them that learning a new system made sense when we were getting it for free. Later, Office was not offered free, but it was priced about the same as buying a single copy of say Wordperfect.

This was a beautiful marketing strategy for MS. With reduced cash flow, Lotus Development, Ashton-Tate, Borland, Wordperfect, etc. did not have the resources for R&D. And this was also about the time Windows really started taking off. So, these vendors were late to the party with their window versions and many of their products suffered in design shortcuts and poor QC. On the opposite side, MS leveraged their incredible wealth to eventually become the only game in town. Game, Set, Match!

MS is a local company for me. I have many friends who still work there, but many retired in their early 40's. MS has done many clever things, but innovation is not real high on the list. I will tell you a short "locals only" story about what goes on in Redmond. One of MS's legal types wanted to have a 10-15 question TEST after the required reading of the software agreement. Unless the user passed the test, they could not install the software. We all owe someone a thanks for putting the axe to that one.

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 02:26 PM
Home users who don't want to spend $200-$300 on office just to get a word processor. If they can get pages, more home oriented and works with .doc and includes a spreadsheet that works with excel for $100 why not?

I do agree however, pages is a bit "odd" to work with as a word processor. It does newsletters nice, but what if I just want to type a paper? I have to claim ingnorance as I really have not played around engough to know better. Perhaps it will do a nice "paper" look, just feels odd.


You leave a few things out of your price comparison: MS $200 & iWork $79. Many users can qualify for a $120-130 education version of Office. Even without that, Office only has an upgrade every 3-5 years. And with Office being more mature, many or most can skip an upgrade or two. iWork is years from being mature. For that reason most need to purchase each upgrade as they come out. That comes to $79/year. That would average at least $240 for a 3 year upgrade cycle. Or $320 to $400 for the 4-5 year cycle.

The above is without even comparing what one gets with MS Office or with Apple iWork. 4 mature programs compared to 2 infant programs. To me it seems that iWork looses again. I fell for the iWork 2005 trap, but did not fall for it in 2006. To me that is because Apple charges too much for too little.

The next revision of office will have a file format change to XML. This would be a great time for Apple to give iWork some real value by making Pages a real word processor & adding a real business level spreadsheet called something like Numbers/Charts Pro. But Apple has to mean it & stay the long term course. The time is here for Apple. So far there has been no indication that Apple will have a full featured word processor or even a mild mannered spreadsheet program.

Bill the TaxMan

Doctor Q
Jul 9, 2006, 02:31 PM
google has a free speadsheet program out recently and it is a good option for free consumer level apps.It might yet be, but I wouldn't recommend it so far. I've been playing with it and it's still a little buggy, although they will probably work the kinks out.

whats a "consumer oriented" spreadsheet app? i dont want to dumbed down excel. whats the point of that?For practical purposes, I'd define it as one that is cheap enough to bundle in with most/all Macs, as opposed to an Excel-killer that tries to compete head-to-head in features and price. I probably wouldn't want a dumbed down Excel either, because I spend so much time using Excel, but there are probably more people who would be only occasional users and could do with something simpler and cheaper than Excel but better than the anemic spreadsheet in Appleworks.

Bradley W
Jul 9, 2006, 02:34 PM
_

Thataboy
Jul 9, 2006, 02:39 PM
I really think iWork should be installed on new computers, just like iLife is. If you want to update to the next year version, you can buy a new computer, or pay the money.

If Apple really doesn't want to part with the huuuuge sales from the 913 copies of iWork they've sold ;) , then why not give it away with a .mac subscription? It would push iWork saturation and very much increase .mac value and subscription rates.

jaxstate
Jul 9, 2006, 02:40 PM
The didnt invent spredsheets, but MS made it easy to access and pretty much prefected them with excel. Apple didn't invent MP3 players or Music downloads, but the get credit as if the did, becaue they made it mainstream.
Excuse me? Are you suggesting Microsoft invented the spreadsheet?? (Or, for that matter presentation software?)

In case you hadn't noticed, spreadsheets have been around for a long, long time. Apple itself had a spreadsheet component in the old AppleWorks, as well as in ClarisWorks (now the new AppleWorks). It is an obvious missing piece in iWork.

Naturally there will need to be a certain amount of Excel compatibility in any Apple spreadsheet offering; that simply reflects current market realities. But please tell me what is innovative about Excel, that you expect Apple to copy. Then please look again at the countless cases of Microsoft copying someone else's innovation, or in many cases buying and squashing it.
I too will be sticking with excel.

Flowbee
Jul 9, 2006, 02:43 PM
Why doesnt apple bundel iWork with all new Macs? it would make so much more sense and would keep people from buying MS office.

edit: ok... someone already said that.. :o

I don't think Apple wants to stop people from buying MS Office... Apple wants MS to continue developing it. Lots of people wouldn't consider buying a Mac if it couldn't run Word or Excel. Office "Test Drive" comes installed on every new Mac.

I personally think iWork is just there so Apple has someting to offer in case MS pulls the plug on Office for Mac.

steve_hill4
Jul 9, 2006, 02:50 PM
In case you hadn't noticed, spreadsheets have been around for a long, long time. Apple itself had a spreadsheet component in the old AppleWorks, as well as in ClarisWorks (now the new AppleWorks). It is an obvious missing piece in iWork.
A Microsoft rep recently informed me that they are only offering Office for Mac for another 5 years for now because Apple are working on their own version. Firstly, they will need to make it as good as Office in terms of features and compatibility with office must be spot on and secondly at the current rate Apple are working, this looks unlikely. It will surely take more than 5 years to get to Office level. If we lost Office for Mac, it would be a blow for people requiring certain functions that iWork and OpenOffice.org don't have yet.

iWork does need to also add databasing, perhaps they could call that numbers or records. Then we can have a true successor to Appleworks or even Office.

dukebound85
Jul 9, 2006, 02:54 PM
I love excel. Unless Apple comes with a excel compatible, as powerful version, I will continue to get office. Just the fact that many places rely on excel spreadsheets and the things you can do with it make it indispensible to me

TMay
Jul 9, 2006, 02:58 PM
Beyond these functions, what exactly am I going to get that from Excel that will make it a must have? Appleworks has all of these functionalities from Claris Resolve, which was Informix Wingz, at the time superior to Excel (poorly marketed). Perhaps I don't know what I'm missing, plus I have Filemaker 7 if I need a database.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informix_Wingz

I actually had a copy of Wingz at one time, but development wasn't continued for any length of time.

Charts, if it is called such, will suffice for me and I still am MS free on my mac software.

steve_hill4
Jul 9, 2006, 02:59 PM
I think it's possible for the consumer computers (like Appleworks used to be). The "Mac Pro" and MacBook Pro will have it only as an add-on.
I think this will be the case too, but only if iWork development stops short of Office. If it was a Mac equivalent, full Office, it would tick off MS big time and bye bye to Office for Mac development.

Most new Mac owners tend to look at Office, look at iWork and, even though not wanting to spend anything extra, they choose iWork over Office if not wanting to do much, or on a budget and choose Office if they have cash to burn and believe they really need Office for writing letters, (when textedit would probably do).

Either way, iWork and/or Office for Mac needs to get more features and applications similar/identical to Office for Windows.

EricNau
Jul 9, 2006, 03:03 PM
I think this "consumer-oriented" spreadsheet app could have some potential if Apple executes correctly. Excel is powerful, (my favorite app in the Office suite), yet overkill for many users. Heck, most users don't even know it's overkill for them because they are not even aware of the power of Excel!
Which is exactly why Excel is great for everyone. For those who need powerful and complex features, Excel has them, but for those who don't, those features don't get in the way.

So, perhaps Apple will do with Charts what they did with Pages - instead of giving the consumer a "bare" word processing app, they give you templates to work with. Perhaps in Charts, instead of plain-old spreadsheets, Apple will provide templates to address the average consumer's uses for spreadsheets and assist them in creating what it is that they require. Spreadsheet templates to help track monthly bill payments, templates for your kids' sports teams or fantasy football office pools, who knows... I know one thing with Excel, is that it takes a bit of work to maker a slick looking spreadsheet where you don't see the gridlines, the fonts are different, images are embedded, etc. - in other words, it doesn;t really look like a spreadsheet even though it is. ;) Perhaps Apple will make this type of formatting easier with Charts. :cool:

Regardless, nice to see Apple fleshing out the iWork suite some more - I hope this does indeed happen as the rumor states.
I do like the idea of templates. I just think Apple needs to stop making things "consumer-oriented" and start going after the entire market. It is possible to create a powerful and complex spreadsheet program, while still keeping it simple for the average user.

Eraserhead
Jul 9, 2006, 03:06 PM
Apple's entry has better graphing functionality than Excel.

It already does for basic graphs, the default colours are nicer than Excel and you can resize the chart without the text labels all expanding ridiculously (unless you put the chart in it's own sheet in Excel), it also seems to support the chart types, the only problem is that you cannot do lines of best fit (like excel) with Pages which is very useful especially for scientific graphs, you also cannot do error boxes.

steve_hill4
Jul 9, 2006, 03:07 PM
Let me guess what's next: a database component (Filemaker Lite?). I suppose the drawing component and painting component from Appleworks will show up in iLife at some point. Uuh ... yawn.
Let's hope so, although I believe Apple have stated in the past that it's not something they want to do anymore. Photo oriented applications are what Apple want to provide and more consumers are after.

Not ideal, especially for those Mac owners not in the know, but if you want drawing and painting, install X11 and download GimpShop until Apple re-release these elements or in case they never do.

Demoman
Jul 9, 2006, 03:07 PM
You leave a few things out of your price comparison: MS $200 & iWork $79. Many users can qualify for a $120-130 education version of Office. Even without that, Office only has an upgrade every 3-5 years. And with Office being more mature, many or most can skip an upgrade or two. iWork is years from being mature. For that reason most need to purchase each upgrade as they come out. That comes to $79/year. That would average at least $240 for a 3 year upgrade cycle. Or $320 to $400 for the 4-5 year cycle.

The above is without even comparing what one gets with MS Office or with Apple iWork. 4 mature programs compared to 2 infant programs. To me it seems that iWork looses again. I fell for the iWork 2005 trap, but did not fall for it in 2006. To me that is because Apple charges too much for too little.

The next revision of office will have a file format change to XML. This would be a great time for Apple to give iWork some real value by making Pages a real word processor & adding a real business level spreadsheet called something like Numbers/Charts Pro. But Apple has to mean it & stay the long term course. The time is here for Apple. So far there has been no indication that Apple will have a full featured word processor or even a mild mannered spreadsheet program.

Bill the TaxMan

"Many users can qualify for a $120-130 education version of Office."

In my company zero qualify. Average home user, I doubt if the number is as high as 25%. For businesses and government, I would be surprised if it was above 5%.

"iWork is years from being mature. For that reason most need to purchase each upgrade as they come out. That comes to $79/year. That would average at least $240 for a 3 year upgrade cycle. Or $320 to $400 for the 4-5 year cycle."

Come on Bill, this is purely speculation with little historical data to support it. And if you think Excel is such a great product, think again. It does pretty well and most users are able to accomplish what they want. But, it is a resource Pig. I just had to upgrade 80 users from Office 2000 to Office 2003, just because Excel could not even open a large spreadsheet that came with our new estimating system. Then I had to upgrade the workstations for about half of them because Excel ran so poorly. After a few months of use, Excel 2003 is bogging down trying to deal with the larger pivot tables. Eventually, it even shutdown. The app says we have exceeded the program resources and we should consider a database solution. For now, we are having to purge data weekly and we hasten to replace Excel with a VB app. No, Excel is far from a mature, perfect product.

amac4me
Jul 9, 2006, 03:11 PM
Most home users don't need all the advanced features in Microsoft Excel. The ability to easily create spreadsheets for the home user would be a welcome addition to iWork.

Bring it on:D

joeops57
Jul 9, 2006, 03:12 PM
Excel is one of the only things that MS has gotten right over the years. Hopefully, Charts will be just as good if not better.

~Joe

DaveTheRave
Jul 9, 2006, 03:20 PM
Most of the things that I do in my second quarter of Excel & Word training at schoold must be done with the Windows version. This is either because the Mac version either does not have that feature at all or the feature is so weak that it is not there for any but the simplist use.


As a potential switcher, I'd like to hear what features are missing from the Mac versions. Are you referring to VBA? I thought I knew most of Excel until I recently started dabbling with VBA to make my life so much easier at work by automating actions that I previously thought were not possible. Ie adding an "If-then" type logic into a macro, etc.

This iWorks suite reminds me of MS Works, which came free on a Windows machine I bought about 10 years ago. It sounds like Apple realizes that Microsoft still rules the professional Office Suite segment of the market. What Apple is doing is trying to fill in the gap in the market for people who can't justify the expense of MS Office to do light word processing and number crunching. Just like MS Works, which had a watered-down spreadsheet program and word processor. Perfect for the soccer mom, etc. Nothing wrong with this, Apple is trying to offer a product for a market segment that had previously had no options for a simple spreadsheet program.

bob_hearn
Jul 9, 2006, 03:24 PM
I have been in Micros since 1982. My first IBM PC had a single 180K single density floppy and a whopping 64K of RAM. Over these 24 years, I have only worked for two companies and have done the vast majority of the purchasing. I know what I am talking about.

Perhaps that would explain our differing perspectives; I come at it from a developer's viewpoint. (Oh, and I remember those newfangled PCs, with all that memory. :) )

I do not remember exactly what year MS bundled Word and Excel and called it a Suite, probably 1990-1991.

That sounds about right. But Word and Excel were already dominant at this point, at least on the Mac side. As was, on the lower end, Microsoft Works. Of the three, in 1989, only MS Works looked vulnerable, so that is what my partner and I targeted when we sat down to write ClarisWorks. It's the era leading up to this I'm talking about, when Microsoft became dominant via its dirty tricks. Of course, it later became more dominant, with yet more dirty tricks; the later ones are the ones the Justice dept. decided to be ineffectual about.

But when they did, almost all of my vendors and their competitors were offering the office suite free with their computers. I remember having a minor revolt with many of my users. They used Lotus 123, DBase IV, R:Rbase, Samba, Wordperfect, AmiPro, Quattro Pro, etc.

OK, I stand corrected. My recollection was that by this point MS Works was being given away, the idea being to incent users to upgrade to Word & Excel. But as I said, I was never a Windows user, so I could easily be wrong about those details.

MS is a local company for me. I have many friends who still work there, but many retired in their early 40's.

I have some former friends who work there...

One of MS's legal types wanted to have a 10-15 question TEST after the required reading of the software agreement. Unless the user passed the test, they could not install the software.

I'm not a bit surprised. :)

Demoman
Jul 9, 2006, 03:47 PM
That sounds about right. But Word and Excel were already dominant at this point, at least on the Mac side. As was, on the lower end, Microsoft Works. Of the three, in 1989, only MS Works looked vulnerable, so that is what my partner and I targeted when we sat down to write ClarisWorks. It's the era leading up to this I'm talking about, when Microsoft became dominant via its dirty tricks. Of course, it later became more dominant, with yet more dirty tricks; the later ones are the ones the Justice dept. decided to be ineffectual about.


Bob,

Word and Excel did not gain dominance until Windows 3.1 was firmly established. That would be about 1992-1993. In fact, I was just tossing some old Byte, PC Magazine, etc. stuff. I was browsing it nostalgically as I tossed. In a late 90's PCM, I read a short article about how Word should be considered as good, or better, than most of the other WP's out there. In ~ the same time period, Byte was still rating Quattro Pro as the best choice for spreadsheets, with Lotus 123 in second. It was not easy for MS to gain a solid foothold where these solid legacy applications lived. Surprisingly, it was business that was slow to adopt MS. They had a fortune invested in the MS competitors. But, the economics eventually won out.

Eraserhead
Jul 9, 2006, 03:53 PM
In my company zero qualify. Average home user, I doubt if the number is as high as 25%. For businesses and government, I would be surprised if it was above 5%.

As the requirement is to have a school age child or be a teacher, or someone doing a course with an academic qualification (i.e. a college class/at University) this covers a vast number of people.

Eligibility for student licence Students: Full or part-time student aged five or over enrolled on a course that will deliver an academic qualification publicly recognised by the Department for Education & Skills (DfES) or the Irish Department of Education (DOE)

Demoman
Jul 9, 2006, 04:29 PM
A Microsoft rep recently informed me that they are only offering Office for Mac for another 5 years for now because Apple are working on their own version. Firstly, they will need to make it as good as Office in terms of features and compatibility with office must be spot on and secondly at the current rate Apple are working, this looks unlikely. It will surely take more than 5 years to get to Office level. If we lost Office for Mac, it would be a blow for people requiring certain functions that iWork and OpenOffice.org don't have yet.

iWork does need to also add databasing, perhaps they could call that numbers or records. Then we can have a true successor to Appleworks or even Office.

In the business world, basic functionality is usually all that is required. Sure, there are exceptions. For example, a CPA firm would probably demand full features in their spreadsheet. Those who spend their day doing heavy word processing would want the same for their needs. I am not sure I agree with you about an Access compatible product. When I got to my present company, we had Access apps everywhere. We now have 3 left and all are scheduled for replacement. Everything now is SQL Server, VB and Crystal. I have never used Filemaker, so I have no feel for its' suitability in the home, or in business.

What I would really like to see is RealBasic and MySQL (or equivalents) get a solid enterprise 4GL development environment for Apple, something that is as feature rich as VB and Sql Server. That would be huge.

bob_hearn
Jul 9, 2006, 04:31 PM
Word and Excel did not gain dominance until Windows 3.1 was firmly established. That would be about 1992-1993.

Well, I'll have to disagree with you there, at least on the Mac side. In 1989, Word, Excel, and Works were consistently the top three best-selling Mac programs. But again, I confess ignorance as to the Windows world at the time.

mutantteenager
Jul 9, 2006, 04:38 PM
I would say NO! Apple has just made a nice presentation program & a simple word processor & called it iWork.

Am I the only person who thinks it odd that Apple are the only company who seem to make a home computer without a word processor bundled? (Any Apple apologists who think textedit is word, need to take a look at notepad!)

iWork should be bundled with new machines. It seems very poor to expect people to buy iWork when MS Works is bundled with most home computers. People aren't going to switch to iWork if the only exposure they get is the 30 day trial.

Before the tirade, I use keynote, but I don't think Apple can compete with Excel. It's like trying to make a replacement for Photoshop.

wmmk
Jul 9, 2006, 04:49 PM
It might yet be, but I wouldn't recommend it so far. I've been playing with it and it's still a little buggy, although they will probably work the kinks out.

Exactly. Google spreadsheet doesn't even support safari! Even when using it in FF, I'm not a huge fan of the interface. There's just something sepcial about a genuine cocoa OS X app. It just looks and feels perfect.

Demoman
Jul 9, 2006, 05:16 PM
Well, I'll have to disagree with you there, at least on the Mac side. In 1989, Word, Excel, and Works were consistently the top three best-selling Mac programs. But again, I confess ignorance as to the Windows world at the time.

Yes, but the Windows side was what ~ 95% of the total market?

Macnoviz
Jul 9, 2006, 05:18 PM
I guess lots of people think they need Excell, but they only use a few percent of its capacity. I think that for most consumers, students, etc. Excell is really overkill. I think that the tables in Pages can do almost anything they need, presenting lots of numbers in an orderly fashion and doing basic automatic calculations. But I do agree a nice, simple spreadsheet program wouldn't hurt, even if it is used rarely. It would give people the feeling that iWork can completely replace Office for a lot of users. The only problem might be the new "standards" Microsoft is putting in Word, and who knows what else, like .docx files. It will be a lot harder convincing people to leave Office, if they can't be garanteed full compatability

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 05:19 PM
Sweet so by iWork 2009 we should actually have something worth using. This releasing a new app each year to force an upgrade is a PITA. Hurry up Microsoft and release the UB version of Office v.X so I can remove iWork from my machines.


Finally someone else that sees iWork to be more expensive & limited that MS Office.

Bill the TaxMan

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 05:25 PM
absolutely Microsoft did not "invent" the spreadsheet by any means.

also, "Numbers" already made its appearance in iWork '06. the Numbers pane is part of the Inspector for a Table in Keynote and Pages. it's where you setup the math and formula editor for the table.


Won't that make you think then that Chart may then just be a chart like feature in Keynote &/or Pages?

Bill the TaxMan

Loge
Jul 9, 2006, 05:26 PM
Finally someone else that sees iWork to be more expensive & limited that MS Office.

Bill the TaxMan

If you think that $79 is greater than $399 then you need some help.

beige matchbox
Jul 9, 2006, 05:29 PM
as long as it has the function of the old claris/apple works spreadsheet app it'll do for me :)

I've had a play with Excel (and the rest of office) and it offers me nothing thats worth the money, so iWork with spreadsheet would be great :D

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 05:33 PM
Beyond these functions, what exactly am I going to get that from Excel that will make it a must have? Appleworks has all of these functionalities from Claris Resolve, which was Informix Wingz, at the time superior to Excel (poorly marketed). Perhaps I don't know what I'm missing, plus I have Filemaker 7 if I need a database.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informix_Wingz

I actually had a copy of Wingz at one time, but development wasn't continued for any length of time.

Charts, if it is called such, will suffice for me and I still am MS free on my mac software.


Wingz was a 32k X 32k matrix. At that time Excel was on a 16k X 256 matrix. Excel has only grown to a 64k X 256 matrix. At times it would be interesting to have over 256 columns.

Bill the TaxMan

B. Hunter
Jul 9, 2006, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ericnau
If Apple is not developing this to compete with Excel, "Charts" isn't going to be good enough. Who would use Charts if there was a better option? ...That would be stupid.

If this is the case, Apple shouldn't bother at all.

When pages 05 showed up, some people said "why develop Pages if it will not compete with Word? For me it's not a matter of competing products. I use Pages for many papers and projects. It's easier for me to use this than Word and even Publisher put together.

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 05:45 PM
Which is exactly why Excel is great for everyone. For those who need powerful and complex features, Excel has them, but for those who don't, those features don't get in the way.


I do like the idea of templates. I just think Apple needs to stop making things "consumer-oriented" and start going after the entire market. It is possible to create a powerful and complex spreadsheet program, while still keeping it simple for the average user.


This Consumer/Business agrument is what Steve Jobs used as the reason he was cancelling the Mac Clone market. Apple wanted the Clone Makers to build low-end Consumer Macs while Apple made the high-end Business Macs. What has become reality is that Apple excels in the making of theConsumer Mac & iPod like items. But even though they may make attempts at the Business level Mac like the great Quad Core G5, they only make yearly upgrades as small as they may be. This means that they fail the Business market by lagging the market all of the time. We need some sort of Mac Clone to take care of the Business Mac User. It seems that if the Chart or iChart if made is just a Consumer level program they will continue this Consumer first, last & in-between reputation they have made for themselves. Maybe this is why they suffer in the business community, they're just Consumer oriented & not Business oriented.

Bill the TaxMan

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 06:11 PM
"Many users can qualify for a $120-130 education version of Office."

In my company zero qualify. Average home user, I doubt if the number is as high as 25%. For businesses and government, I would be surprised if it was above 5%.

"iWork is years from being mature. For that reason most need to purchase each upgrade as they come out. That comes to $79/year. That would average at least $240 for a 3 year upgrade cycle. Or $320 to $400 for the 4-5 year cycle."

Come on Bill, this is purely speculation with little historical data to support it. And if you think Excel is such a great product, think again. It does pretty well and most users are able to accomplish what they want. But, it is a resource Pig. I just had to upgrade 80 users from Office 2000 to Office 2003, just because Excel could not even open a large spreadsheet that came with our new estimating system. Then I had to upgrade the workstations for about half of them because Excel ran so poorly. After a few months of use, Excel 2003 is bogging down trying to deal with the larger pivot tables. Eventually, it even shutdown. The app says we have exceeded the program resources and we should consider a database solution. For now, we are having to purge data weekly and we hasten to replace Excel with a VB app. No, Excel is far from a mature, perfect product.


I'm like you in some ways. I will agree with you that Excel is not the program that it could be. The reson why was also stated in one of my posts. That is because it has not had the comptetition that it needs to to become as great as it could be. Excel had no Mac upgrade between 5 & 8.

We need someone to write this program. I have found none in the past. With 99.999+% of the new programs in the non-spreadsheet area we will have to work around Excel limitations or use other types of programs to do the work that Excel can not or will not do in an efficient enough manner.

Because of Excels 4,000 different cell format limit (which hasn't changed in several versions) I had to break my big spreadsheet into many small ones & then link them together when they are needed. So I will be the last one to say that Excel is perfect. If any program was perfect today, someone would find something that they needed to do & that this program could not do thus rendering it not perfect by the next day.

I've purchased many programs hoping that they could do what I want & need from Excel. To date I just have a lot of disks & CDs that I do not use anymore to show for all of my work. I'm one that does not expect Apple to be the one to take over the lead in the spreadsheet area. I won't call it a spreadsheet war, because there never was a spreadsheet war on the Macintosh. Excel has always stayed just good enough to keep the competitors down, but really no better. Now Excel for the Mac doesn't even keep parity with the Windows version. In the second quarter I've had to do 95% of my work using Office 2003 running under Virtual PC to get my work done. There may have been more competition in the MS-DOS area with Lotus 1-2-3, but was there ever the same competition in the Windows arena with MS Office.

Bill the TaxMan

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 06:33 PM
Bob,

Word and Excel did not gain dominance until Windows 3.1 was firmly established. That would be about 1992-1993. In fact, I was just tossing some old Byte, PC Magazine, etc. stuff. I was browsing it nostalgically as I tossed. In a late 90's PCM, I read a short article about how Word should be considered as good, or better, than most of the other WP's out there. In ~ the same time period, Byte was still rating Quattro Pro as the best choice for spreadsheets, with Lotus 123 in second. It was not easy for MS to gain a solid foothold where these solid legacy applications lived. Surprisingly, it was business that was slow to adopt MS. They had a fortune invested in the MS competitors. But, the economics eventually won out.


It probably coinsided with the change from MS-DOS to Windows. In some areas it took a lot longer to transition. In the Windows Tax Prep area other than TurboTax for Windows which rather than being ported from TurboTax for MS-DOS was the Mac'nTax purchased by ChipSoft & ported to theWindows arena, many of the programs did not push their Windows version of their software over the MS-DOS version until the last 2-5 years. A few of them still look like their Windows counter parts.

Was Excel really better in the Windows arena or was it just first? These other programs may have waited too long for the seitch. It wasn't all dirty tricks by MS that has put MS Office in the lead. I havn't heard many people refer to Apple's giving Apple II's to schools to get a foot hold in the school market. I'm sure many feel that to be the case.

Bill the TaxMan

iJawn108
Jul 9, 2006, 06:34 PM
I was talking about just this to my local apple reseller. That apple themselves need to include one in iWork.


I'll probibly just stick to open office.org it does everything i need it to.

jhenzie
Jul 9, 2006, 06:55 PM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.

So they are taking ideas from Microsoft Excel, come on, you have to be kidding.

Oh sorry, I forgot that `microsoft invented teh spreadsheet, Lotus begat excel, visicalc begat lotus

Apple, if this comes to fruition, is simply providing an application in a specific category. `there is no copying here.

But you are right, MS should not be criticized for entering products that compete with Apple

heisetax
Jul 9, 2006, 07:01 PM
If you think that $79 is greater than $399 then you need some help.


Its easy to get a MS office Student licensed copy. That changes the $399 to say $130. This program does not need to be or is it offered to be upgraded that often. That means for the education user as soon as iWork is upgraded the $79 is already larger than the $399. I've purchased Keynote 1 & iWork 2005. I did not choose to purchase iWork 2006 so my version of Pages is very slim. I already have more money tied up in KeyNote/iWork than in this last version of Office which already includes a spreadsheet.

This $79 is the same for a new purchaser as it is an upgrading purchaser, as Apple has no upgrade prices for their OS or their so called Consumer Apps, i.e. iLife & iWork. If the new version is not purchased of iWork then one quickly fall behind as the Pages program has not reached an universal use level yet. It is still a limited use product. But this can not be directly related to $'s. Many people do not purchace every upgrade for Office. They have enough features in the old version to keep them going. With iWork if this was the case we would have at least $79 * 6 or $474, providing the program is around that long. $474 is even higher than the $399 that not many users would ever have to pay.

At the school I go to MS Office costs $80. At UNL the price is $10. In this case the $79 is about equal to or many times larger than your not always the case $399.

By telling the truth it is very easy to get an educational copy of MS Office. If you just say you are a student, most places will still sell to you. I'll remain a student for many more years. By that time I'll be 70 or more & may not want to upgrade at all. Mac OS X upgrades are only $69 for students. Think about it & go back to school. It that way you can keep your mind active & get reminded in most classes why you use a Mac.

Mac User since 1984, Excel user since version 1.0,

Bill the TaxMan

ramblingman
Jul 9, 2006, 07:20 PM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.


Since when is a company coming out with a slideshow or spreadsheet application (assuming Apple acutally does come out with this "Charts" app) automatically stealing from Microsoft?

Did Microsoft patent the very notion of a spreadsheet? Slideshow?

If so, someone better accuse Corel of stealing from Microsoft as well. (Look at the WordPerfect Office Suite.)

ramblingman
Jul 9, 2006, 07:30 PM
Maybe I'm alone in this sentiment, but I don't think Apple needs a spreadsheet app in the iWork suite. Apple could derive much more functionality by including a database app. Think of it as a kind of FileMaker Lite. I think a good name would be "Data."

For years, FileMaker has been claiming that their FileMaker Pro application can do more with numbers (and other kinds of data) than Excel can. So, why not come out with a "lite" version of FileMaker Pro, similar to the way Adobe came out with Photoshop Elements, or Apple came out with Final Cut Express?

I imagine that a consumer-oriented productivity suite such as iWork is meant to serve the small office/home office clientelle. A "Data" app would be handy for postal mailing lists, customer lists, and so on.

Comments, anyone?

SkipNewarkDE
Jul 9, 2006, 07:36 PM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.

A little history lesson for you... The first spreadsheet software program was actually developed by one Dan and Kathleen Bricklin for the Apple // computer way back in 1979. Lotus 1-2-3 was the next major spreadsheet program that came along and Microsoft had this thing called Multiplan that started on CP/M but was ported for other platforms as well. Microsoft Excel (and Word, for that matter) was originally developed FOR the Macintosh, prior to Windows even even being out.

Apple released a program called AppleWorks way back in 1984 for the Apple //e, and later for the GS, followed by a Macintosh version some years later.

Apple is definately not stealing any ideas from Microsoft.

mambodancer
Jul 9, 2006, 07:50 PM
Visicalc was probably the 1st successful spreadsheet application and propelled the Apple II computer into the business world. Shortly after that, Microsoft introduced Multiplan. This spreadsheet shipped at the Macintosh's introduction in January 1984 and was the 3rd Macintosh application behind MacWrite and MacPaint. Appleworks was originally and Apple II product and was one of the first integrated programs for PC's (Personal Computers). Quark had a very early word processor called Word Juggler that I think incorported some mathematical functions but it was VisiCorp with Visicalc that really did so much for making the PC mainstream.

Excel was an early competitor to Lotus 1-2-3 that at the time was the dominate spreadsheet. Microsoft won that battle and the battle of the integrated apps against Lotus Jazz (Macintosh) and Framework (Ashton Tate).

Shintocam
Jul 9, 2006, 07:54 PM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.

Well, you could say Lotus was really the champ before Excel but I see your point. What I reallly find interesting though is that people are calling for Apple to include iWork as a standard part of the system (i.e. preinstalled). These are the same people who whine about Microsoft "forcing" everyone to use IE or WM Player because they are preinstalled and integrated into the OS.

Apple already include iLife and then goes on about how the Mac is so great because all these apps are so well integrated. Well what if I want to write software to handle photos, or make DVDs etc....why isn't it anti-competitive when Apple does it?

Microsoft puts IE, WMP in automatically, Apple puts in iPhoto, iTunes, Safari, iDVD, GarageBand, etc... all standard.

I really like my PB - and plan to get a MBP soon, but I must say the new Apple adds annoy the pants off of me and I see Apple going down many of the same roads as MS did. If Apple ever starts to make major in-roads in terms of market share they better watch out.

Fukui
Jul 9, 2006, 07:56 PM
Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I think LisaCalc (http://www.guidebookgallery.org/ads/magazines/lisa/lisacalc) would have something different to say to that....

tjwett
Jul 9, 2006, 08:09 PM
Won't that make you think then that Chart may then just be a chart like feature in Keynote &/or Pages?

Bill the TaxMan

exactly what i was thinking. i think Charts will be another inspector added to Pages and Keynote to add functionality to both, just like Numbers was.

solvs
Jul 9, 2006, 08:40 PM
Its easy to get a MS office Student licensed copy. That changes the $399 to say $130. This program does not need to be or is it offered to be upgraded that often. That means for the education user as soon as iWork is upgraded the $79 is already larger than the $399.
iWork is only $49 to students. You don't have to upgrade it either, as you haven't. But it's nice to have that option if the new features are worth it to you. For the price of the educational version of Office, you could have had 3 versions of iWork.

Not saying they're comparable, but there it is.

This $79 is the same for a new purchaser as it is an upgrading purchaser, as Apple has no upgrade prices for their OS or their so called Consumer Apps, i.e. iLife & iWork.
Nor is there an upgrade price for the edu version of Office.

If the new version is not purchased of iWork then one quickly fall behind as the Pages program has not reached an universal use level yet.
Neither has Office. Not until the next version. So you'll be paying ~$300. More if you bought Office X.

I still use Office because I think it's worth it. I got iWork '06, but I rarely use it. To be honest, I actually use TextEdit more than anything, though Pages is nice for flyers and Keynote is much better than PP IMO. I still actually use AppleWorks for some stuff too. If iWork '07 is good and Office '07 isn't much better than the current version, I know what I'll be putting on my new Intel Mac.

Mr. Dee
Jul 9, 2006, 08:59 PM
We must remember, Office was released first on the Macintosh platform with Office 1.0 for Mac in January 1990. Windows did not get Office until version 1.3. Microsoft was the first Company in the software productivity business to pioneer the Office suite, others followed after. When you dig deep, Microsoft basically started the most of the successful Office apps on the Macintosh, Word, Excel and PowerPoint (formerly Forethought), actually PowerPoint wasn't released for Windows until 1990, 1987 for Mac.

In someways, Office undermined the competition but at the same time provided tremendous value through its all in one approach. When you usually would pay $500 for a single copy of WordPerfect, Word or Quattro Pro and Excel, you got everything for the same price, Wordprocessor, Spreadsheet and Presentation software in one suite.

So, some of us might see that as dirty tricks, but its the most sensible, well thought dirty trick that deserved to be created. As for undermining the Macintosh in general, No, I don't think so. A lot of things factored into the success of Microsoft during the early 90's. Apple's reluctancy to not license the Mac OS to thirdparty vendors, cheap IBM compatibles competing with each other such as Dell, Compaq, Gateway and many others.

Microsoft of course leveraged this with Windows, by providing a standardized platform for consumers to use and for developers to create an industry with tools such as Visual Basic. Windows NT further pushed Microsoft into a market where it further made them successful (the Enterprise) because they provided cheap networking and management tools once available as products you had to buy from Novell or Bayan Vines. Think about it, you had to buy TCP/IP at one time?

Throughout all of this, Microsoft continued to develop Microsoft Office for the Macintosh, basically through the thick and thin. I personally don't use Excel a lot, its there, but I rearly use it, but when I do, its the best choice for what I want to do, simple or complex. Word continues to be my favorite choice, even above WordPerfect, it just feels better and easier to use.

It will be interesting to see what Apple brings to the table with Charts, at the sametime, it will be interesting to see what Microsoft brings to the table with Office 12 for Mac. After playing with Office 2007 for Windows, its possible that such a new UI thats a part of the core apps, Word, Excel, PowerPoint might make sense in the Mac versions since the current toolbar with 1500 hundred commands and inspector is looking a bit dated.

Demoman
Jul 9, 2006, 10:12 PM
Its easy to get a MS office Student licensed copy. That changes the $399 to say $130. This program does not need to be or is it offered to be upgraded that often. That means for the education user as soon as iWork is upgraded the $79 is already larger than the $399. I've purchased Keynote 1 & iWork 2005. I did not choose to purchase iWork 2006 so my version of Pages is very slim. I already have more money tied up in KeyNote/iWork than in this last version of Office which already includes a spreadsheet.

This $79 is the same for a new purchaser as it is an upgrading purchaser, as Apple has no upgrade prices for their OS or their so called Consumer Apps, i.e. iLife & iWork. If the new version is not purchased of iWork then one quickly fall behind as the Pages program has not reached an universal use level yet. It is still a limited use product. But this can not be directly related to $'s. Many people do not purchace every upgrade for Office. They have enough features in the old version to keep them going. With iWork if this was the case we would have at least $79 * 6 or $474, providing the program is around that long. $474 is even higher than the $399 that not many users would ever have to pay.

At the school I go to MS Office costs $80. At UNL the price is $10. In this case the $79 is about equal to or many times larger than your not always the case $399.

By telling the truth it is very easy to get an educational copy of MS Office. If you just say you are a student, most places will still sell to you. I'll remain a student for many more years. By that time I'll be 70 or more & may not want to upgrade at all. Mac OS X upgrades are only $69 for students. Think about it & go back to school. It that way you can keep your mind active & get reminded in most classes why you use a Mac.

Mac User since 1984, Excel user since version 1.0,

Bill the TaxMan

Bill - your statement "Its easy to get a MS office Student licensed copy. That changes the $399 to say $130." is like one I read in a book, Guaranteed way to make a Million Dollars", when I was a teenager in the 60's. The first sentence was, "You have to find a way to come up with $50,000 cash". Well, I never bothered with the second sentence.

Your premise is based on someone getting an educational copy. That is an extremely small part of the buying base, and virtually all of business. If Apple want to appeal to the business market, they have to present a compelling reason to do so. Very soon, Apple can put themselves in that position. SW Licensing is a key factor. MS is greedy and has really pissed-off a lot of people with their predatory pricing.

HGW
Jul 9, 2006, 10:14 PM
nice to see apple's comming along with iWork, a spreadsheet is a integral part of a computer and there isnt much left to say the iMac hasnt got.

now if they'd only realise what we all know, games push forward the industry, be nice to see some iPlay software with multiplayer. (quality not quantity)

who says apple is copying microsoft, did they copy microsoft when they made iTunes or iChat. iwork is a given thing for apple

KingYaba
Jul 9, 2006, 10:44 PM
Hmmm, I dun care about iwork, i'll still use appleworks.

Demoman
Jul 9, 2006, 11:13 PM
We must remember, Office was released first on the Macintosh platform with Office 1.0 for Mac in January 1990. Windows did not get Office until version 1.3. Microsoft was the first Company in the software productivity business to pioneer the Office suite, others followed after. When you dig deep, Microsoft basically started the most of the successful Office apps on the Macintosh, Word, Excel and PowerPoint (formerly Forethought), actually PowerPoint wasn't released for Windows until 1990, 1987 for Mac.

In someways, Office undermined the competition but at the same time provided tremendous value through its all in one approach. When you usually would pay $500 for a single copy of WordPerfect, Word or Quattro Pro and Excel, you got everything for the same price, Wordprocessor, Spreadsheet and Presentation software in one suite.

So, some of us might see that as dirty tricks, but its the most sensible, well thought dirty trick that deserved to be created. As for undermining the Macintosh in general, No, I don't think so. A lot of things factored into the success of Microsoft during the early 90's. Apple's reluctancy to not license the Mac OS to thirdparty vendors, cheap IBM compatibles competing with each other such as Dell, Compaq, Gateway and many others.

Microsoft of course leveraged this with Windows, by providing a standardized platform for consumers to use and for developers to create an industry with tools such as Visual Basic. Windows NT further pushed Microsoft into a market where it further made them successful (the Enterprise) because they provided cheap networking and management tools once available as products you had to buy from Novell or Bayan Vines. Think about it, you had to buy TCP/IP at one time?

Throughout all of this, Microsoft continued to develop Microsoft Office for the Macintosh, basically through the thick and thin. I personally don't use Excel a lot, its there, but I rearly use it, but when I do, its the best choice for what I want to do, simple or complex. Word continues to be my favorite choice, even above WordPerfect, it just feels better and easier to use.

It will be interesting to see what Apple brings to the table with Charts, at the sametime, it will be interesting to see what Microsoft brings to the table with Office 12 for Mac. After playing with Office 2007 for Windows, its possible that such a new UI thats a part of the core apps, Word, Excel, PowerPoint might make sense in the Mac versions since the current toolbar with 1500 hundred commands and inspector is looking a bit dated.

In the American corporate world, maybe even the entire corporate universe, there is no concept of 'dirty tricks'. It is not even whether it is legal. It only matters whether you can get away with it.

BWhaler
Jul 9, 2006, 11:14 PM
Its easy to get a MS office Student licensed copy. That changes the $399 to say $130. This program does not need to be or is it offered to be upgraded that often. That means for the education user as soon as iWork is upgraded the $79 is already larger than the $399. I've purchased Keynote 1 & iWork 2005. I did not choose to purchase iWork 2006 so my version of Pages is very slim. I already have more money tied up in KeyNote/iWork than in this last version of Office which already includes a spreadsheet.

This $79 is the same for a new purchaser as it is an upgrading purchaser, as Apple has no upgrade prices for their OS or their so called Consumer Apps, i.e. iLife & iWork. If the new version is not purchased of iWork then one quickly fall behind as the Pages program has not reached an universal use level yet. It is still a limited use product. But this can not be directly related to $'s. Many people do not purchace every upgrade for Office. They have enough features in the old version to keep them going. With iWork if this was the case we would have at least $79 * 6 or $474, providing the program is around that long. $474 is even higher than the $399 that not many users would ever have to pay.

At the school I go to MS Office costs $80. At UNL the price is $10. In this case the $79 is about equal to or many times larger than your not always the case $399.

By telling the truth it is very easy to get an educational copy of MS Office. If you just say you are a student, most places will still sell to you. I'll remain a student for many more years. By that time I'll be 70 or more & may not want to upgrade at all. Mac OS X upgrades are only $69 for students. Think about it & go back to school. It that way you can keep your mind active & get reminded in most classes why you use a Mac.

Mac User since 1984, Excel user since version 1.0,

Bill the TaxMan

So, let's run another example using your logic.

A Convertible Mercedes Costs $50,000. I buy it in 2004, and drive it for 3 years.

In 2004, I buy a Ford Taurus for $25,000.

In 2005, I want the bigger engine, so I buy another one for $15,000 (after selling the old one...think of this as upgrade price.)

In 2006, I want the new leather seats and iPod connection Bose stereo, so so I buy another one for $15,000 (after selling the old one...think of this as upgrade price.)

Conclusion: FORD TAURUS' COST MORE THAN MERCEDES.

Surely you agree:

1. Upgrades offer more, and companies, all companies, charge for upgrades

2. You don't need to upgrade every year.

You can't factor in the price of upgrades because you chose to buy them. If it was a SUBSCRIPTION that REQUIRED you to pay annually, then you'd have a point. But it's not that way.

What you can do to figure out which is cheaper is go into a store, and look at the prices on the box.

iWork $69 for students
MSOffice: $129 for students.

$69 < $129.

Therefore, iWork is cheaper.
-----

But I do agree with your sage words on continuing education throughout one's life. It is a great way to keep the mind and spirit young, vibrant, and active. Great, great, advice.

bousozoku
Jul 9, 2006, 11:14 PM
A little history lesson for you... The first spreadsheet software program was actually developed by one Dan and Kathleen Bricklin for the Apple // computer way back in 1979. Lotus 1-2-3 was the next major spreadsheet program that came along and Microsoft had this thing called Multiplan that started on CP/M but was ported for other platforms as well. Microsoft Excel (and Word, for that matter) was originally developed FOR the Macintosh, prior to Windows even even being out.

Apple released a program called AppleWorks way back in 1984 for the Apple //e, and later for the GS, followed by a Macintosh version some years later.

Apple is definately not stealing any ideas from Microsoft.

Although Excel was being developed before Windows 1.0 was released, it had not been released prior to it. Multiplan was available for Mac at nearly the same time the original Macintosh was available. I was using it along with MacWrite, MacDraw, MacPaint, etc.

In any case, I don't see most people needing major Excel compatibility in iWork but it'll be there as far as import/export. Most people could do with VisiCalc but would definitely want better graphics than we had then. I doubt that

**********
****
********************
*

will work for anyone as a chart these days.

AppleScript support has to be strong. I suppose Automator support needs to be there, too, if anyone is using it.

Fukui
Jul 9, 2006, 11:31 PM
Microsoft was the first Company in the software productivity business to pioneer the Office suite, others followed after.
I don't want to start an flame war or anything, but thats just wrong. (http://toastytech.com/guis/lisaos1LisaTour.html) And there have been plenty of other office suites in the DOS world too.

BenRoethig
Jul 10, 2006, 12:22 AM
Does anybody think that the full version of iWorks 07 will ship with all brand new Macs when it comes out?

Damn well better. The intel Macs not shipping with a productivity suite is a step backwards by about 15 years.

whats a "consumer oriented" spreadsheet app? i dont want to dumbed down excel. whats the point of that?

Pages+Keynote+Charts+database= MS Works, but better. 99.9% of all users do not need the advanced features. While they're at it, a financial app wouldn't be a bad idea.

solvs
Jul 10, 2006, 12:37 AM
While they're at it, a financial app wouldn't be a bad idea.
Doesn't Quicken still come with the new iMacs?

BenRoethig
Jul 10, 2006, 02:08 AM
Doesn't Quicken still come with the new iMacs?

Apple can do better.

bousozoku
Jul 10, 2006, 02:30 AM
Apple can do better.

So can Intuit. In fact, they do but they do it on Windows.

If Apple continually addresses specialises applications where a third party developer already has one, there will be a backlash as there was in the 1980s.

dextertangocci
Jul 10, 2006, 02:43 AM
YAY!!! I will get iWork '07 the moment it comes out if it includes a spreadsheet program. I HATE MS office, and anything else spawned from MS:mad: Every time I need to use a spreadsheet, I have to use Appleworks, which is quite limiting:rolleyes:

nsjoker
Jul 10, 2006, 02:44 AM
cells is a much more fitting name than "charts" or "numbers", i really hope they go with that instead. :(

Lollypop
Jul 10, 2006, 02:59 AM
Apple can do better.

They can do better I agree, but they also dont want to kill of development.

I really think instead of writing a spreadsheet app apple should leverage the already integreated database features and rather base the spreadsheet app on that, and give us a consumer level database application with a few templates, something like a accounting template.

bousozoku
Jul 10, 2006, 03:02 AM
cells is a much more fitting name than "charts" or "numbers", i really hope they go with that instead. :(

Maybe too many people they asked thought that it was a prison control system.

Sesshi
Jul 10, 2006, 03:02 AM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.

Back in the days when MS applications weren't automatically king (especially on the Mac), I used to use Greatworks, a consumer-orientated office suite by Symantec of all people.

I was probably more productive than I am now with bloatware like Office because (barring crashes, which Greatworks did sometimes do rather frequently) I had all the tools I needed in a simple, fast, easy to use and good-looking app which was more integrated with each other and the OS. I was department head of an R&D section at that time so I didn't need to do complex figures, just departmental reporting, etc. Greatworks worked for me actually doing quite complex multi-media documents because everything was so accessible.

I like Pages and Keynote for the same reason, and I will probably like Charts or whatever it is called for the same reason. One thing I will keep in Office is Entourage.

solvs
Jul 10, 2006, 04:33 AM
Apple can do better.
Didn't say it was good, just that it was there. :p

JFreak
Jul 10, 2006, 05:15 AM
It'll be a sad day indeed when the last of us who owned and used a computer before Microsoft became a monopoly dies; the world needs the sense of perspective we can bring to it.

Yep. But unfortunately we have already seen an equally sad day as in the day when the quality of software was defined by the number of sold copies in the eyes of the general public.

People don't care. They think that "everyone has Windows, so therefore Windows is good". Everybody needs to die too, so it must be good :)

GregA
Jul 10, 2006, 05:38 AM
I'm really wondering whether "Numbers" and "Charts" infer the same product (as people seem to expect) or something quite different.

Thinksecret is reporting that Pages will come with a choice of "Word Processing" or "Layout". Pages already allows tables which can have formula in them (just like a basic spreadsheet) - so perhaps Pages will come with "Word Processing", "Layout", or "Numbers"?

The layout tools of iWeb, Pages, and (I assume) Keynote are quite similar - just with different target outputs (print vs web vs presentation). Perhaps the only difference is the starting templates, and we're starting to see a genuine integration of content creation software. "Numbers" might be part of a printout, webpage, or presentation - but something a little more sophisticated than the current tables is probably required.

In relation to "Charts" - doesn't Keynote already have a way of converting a table to a chart? If so, could that same "charting" ability be a starting point for "Charts" used by Keynote & Pages? (and iWeb)

Of course - they'd still have to add the ability to import from Excel (for a consumer spreadsheet). Throw in Filemaker Lite for complicated stuff (and give it the same layout and charting functionality!). Personally, I'd add an import for MS Publisher too.

Am I way off base or is this feasible (as opposed to probable!). If so, is there value in making the end user THINK that there are multiple different programs when infact they're just different templates and objects within templates?

JFreak
Jul 10, 2006, 05:39 AM
Excel is one of the only things that MS has gotten right over the years.

Yep, but only once the 2007 version of Excel finally handles more than 65536 rows and 230 columns. It is the best software Microsoft sells and it took them more than 20 years to get rid of very restrictive limitation.

iWork should be bundled with new machines.

I agree. At least the non-pro machines should have it, as earlier the i-machines had the AppleWorks included. Once iWork has a spreadsheet app included, the AppleWorks is dead.

Yes, but the Windows side was what ~ 95% of the total market?

In 1989, Windows sales were pathetic.

Excel has only grown to a 64k X 256 matrix. At times it would be interesting to have over 256 columns.

Excel 2003 stops at "IV" column, so there are 26*8+22=230 columns available.

Apple has no upgrade prices for their OS or their so called Consumer Apps, i.e. iLife & iWork.

It's a shame. But they're a hardware company, aren't they?

If one wants to have the latest software at all times, it'll be a great incentive for one to buy the cheapest Mac hardware instead of upgrading software. Yearly fee for upgrading software is $129 for the OS plus $79 for the iWork pack plus $79 for the iLife pack -- whopping $287/year. If all that comes bundled with a $599 Mac (currently iWork is not included but I guess it will be), then the hardware would be effectively priced at $312 which one could easily get selling the year-old hardware for somebody else. I bet this is the reason Apple is not offering upgrade discount.

it is very easy to get an educational copy of MS Office. If you just say you are a student, most places will still sell to you.

It is also very easy to get it free by downloading a pirate copy. Distributing software costs close to nothing, so the price one pays is for the LICENSE, iow, a right to use the software.

Student license is not valid for a non-student. Using edu-software in a company is a license violation and therefore just as bad as using pirated software.

Just a thought ;)

Did Microsoft patent the very notion of a spreadsheet? Slideshow? If so, someone better accuse Corel of stealing from Microsoft as well. (Look at the WordPerfect Office Suite.)

Perfect example of someone who has no perspective. You did not know that the spreadsheet part of the WordPerfect Office was once called Quattro Pro, did you?

(It's a shame Corel bought WordPerfect, as Corel has always been well known for inferior quality whereas WordPerfect was the King of word processing and I hated when Microsoft's marketing was successfull in forcing people to switch to Word instead. Bring back the early 90's...)

Microsoft had this thing called Multiplan that started on CP/M but was ported for other platforms as well.

I used that on Commodore64 in the 80's.

jonharris200
Jul 10, 2006, 05:58 AM
Charts... now I can make a pie chart of my holiday! :D

Loge
Jul 10, 2006, 06:11 AM
Excel 2003 stops at "IV" column, so there are 26*8+22=230 columns available.

Shouldn't that be 26*9+22=256? Alternatively just switch on R1C1 notation and you can see the last column is 256.

A.Fairhead
Jul 10, 2006, 06:12 AM
Apple won't be wanting to compete directly with Excel, as far as I can see. I can see Charts being to Excel the same as what Pages is to Word - a package which delivers a similar solution, but focuses more on aesthetics of the document rather than all the fancy bells and whistles Word and Excel both have.

Competing with a product line which for many people is necessary, would be silly - MS could simply pull the product off of the shelves and focus it on their own OS; the fact that Apple and MS, software-wise are approaching slightly different audiences, is a good thing :)

Hattig
Jul 10, 2006, 06:44 AM
The intriguing thing is how Apple will implement the software.

Will it be just like Excel - a stack of spreadsheets with limited formatting options within the cells? Or will it be more document centric - expanding upon the current basic formula-supporting tables to allowing full spreadsheet functionality within these tables, within Pages (final document) and Keynote (final presentation).

It would take a lot of effort and time to get an application that is as comprehensive as Excel overall, although there are places Excel lacks, and I'm sure that Apple produced software will allow the creation of beautiful spreadsheets. I'm sure they'll create a good consumer spreadsheet package though, with lots of templates for common consumer spreadsheet tasks like tracking finances, budgets, bills, etc.

I'm one of the people that kinda likes Pages for what it does, even if it acts like a bad word processor and layout package sometimes. I skipped '06 though, it should have been a free update.

dernhelm
Jul 10, 2006, 07:36 AM
I find it funny how Microsoft is coming out with a competitor to the iPod and is including features in Vista that have already been in OS X for years... and everyone calls them a theif or a copycat for it. But when Apple comes out with an Excel wannabe, not a soul says that they're trying to cash in on someone else's idea. Let's face it, Excel has been around for ages, and Apple is just now coming out with their own version of it... same with Keynote (although I do find Keynote to be considerably better).

I'll be the first to say it: "Apple is stealing the idea and trying to cash in on Microsoft's work just as Microsoft did with Windows."

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Apple - but it's true. There are so many fanboys out there that they can't see around the fact that Apple is just as guilty as MS when it comes to taking ideas.

Don't you mean that Apple is copying Visicalc?!

iAlan
Jul 10, 2006, 07:43 AM
[BAD PUN] Apple got it write with Pages, and Keynote presented a good option - so I guess it adds up to have a spreadsheet app as well [/BAD PUN]

kalisphoenix
Jul 10, 2006, 07:44 AM
What I reallly find interesting though is that people are calling for Apple to include iWork as a standard part of the system (i.e. preinstalled). These are the same people who whine about Microsoft "forcing" everyone to use IE or WM Player because they are preinstalled and integrated into the OS.

It's good to know that someone's keeping track of all these people. Can I see the list?

And please, please, read something about the actual trial of Microsoft. So that you don't look idiotic in a public forum.

CrazyWingman
Jul 10, 2006, 08:06 AM
Hey - I just thought I'd add one more piece to the cost argument: the family pack.

For anyone that has more than one Mac at home, it's entirely worth it to spend $20 more and get valid iWork licenses for up to five computers - $100 total.

The closest I can come for MS Office is an educational site license for five computers at $275 total. I didn't get far enough into the fine print to know if this is available to any academic user or just institutions, though.

So, for multiple computers, iWork is definitely the least expensive solution.

And for all of you who say, "Meh, I'll install my single copy on as many computers as I want - they'll never know," I say to you, "Genuine Advantage."

An additional solution: buy Excel separately from the bundled Office suite. Then the money that you're not wasting on MS Word and Powerpoint can be spent on iWork. :)

BenRoethig
Jul 10, 2006, 08:10 AM
So can Intuit. In fact, they do but they do it on Windows.

If Apple continually addresses specialises applications where a third party developer already has one, there will be a backlash as there was in the 1980s.

And if Intuit were to decide the Mac platform wasn't worth its time again, Apple would be SOL again. Quicken is a very dated product on both platforms.

Gasu E.
Jul 10, 2006, 08:26 AM
:eek: Goodmorning TimUSCA! Where were you born?
Remember "Lotus" and "Aldus Persuasion"?

Viva VisiCalc!

Carl Spackler
Jul 10, 2006, 08:48 AM
YAY!!! I will get iWork '07 the moment it comes out if it includes a spreadsheet program. I HATE MS office, and anything else spawned from MS:mad: Every time I need to use a spreadsheet, I have to use Appleworks, which is quite limiting:rolleyes:

I've been completely happy with NeoOffice (http://www.neooffice.org/)

Gasu E.
Jul 10, 2006, 08:48 AM
cells is a much more fitting name than "charts" or "numbers", i really hope they go with that instead. :(


... and an invitation to customer confusion or even a lawsuit from MS. Ex-cell, dontcha get it?

peharri
Jul 10, 2006, 09:26 AM
If nothing else, the addition of a spreadsheet will turn iWork from being a bundle to something realistically called an Office Suite (I'm still trying to work out why people call it that when it's just a DTP package with what really amounts to a special version of the same program for editing presentations - at least, that's how it's always been explained to me.)

I think a spreadsheet is a good idea. I think there's room for Apple to do something great, not a "low end" spreadsheet as many here advocate, but something like Lotus Improv, which impressed Jobs massively when it came out and which there's not been anything comparable since.

BenRoethig
Jul 10, 2006, 11:15 AM
I've been completely happy with NeoOffice (http://www.neooffice.org/)

You're one of the few.

MajorTom
Jul 10, 2006, 12:31 PM
I have no real use for a sreadsheet app but i regularly use pages (2) and Keynote (3) and any addition to the suite is welcom IMO.

Just a thought but i would like to see a drawing app added to the iWork suite. I currently use Intaglio which to me is the most apple like drawing app i have tried, but i would still love to see how apple would implement this into iWork.

I originaly thought that a web-design app would be a nice addition to iWork and it ended up being added to iLife so maybe apple would do the same with a drawing app? :rolleyes:

yoak
Jul 10, 2006, 02:04 PM
I will certainly buy iWorks if they include charts. I only use spreadsheets to make my invoices, and calculate the family income and expenses. Office is too expensive for just that

safXmal
Jul 10, 2006, 09:46 PM
Maybe I'm alone in this sentiment, but I don't think Apple needs a spreadsheet app in the iWork suite. Apple could derive much more functionality by including a database app. Think of it as a kind of FileMaker Lite. I think a good name would be "Data."

Comments, anyone?

Why not make some kind of a mix between a database and excel. As you know a lot of people - me included - use excel as a kind of database.

I often use it at work to analyze logistics data. Which means plenty of columns with descriptive data about an item and then a few with some calculated numbers. I could use Acces but that is way to cumbersome for the simple data I have to analyze. Besides Acces is not easy to use when you want to make something quick and dirty.

Regularely I use the pivot tables in excel but those are way to limited. I can only have a few columns with descriptive data.

Snowy_River
Jul 13, 2006, 12:44 PM
I will certainly buy iWorks if they include charts. I only use spreadsheets to make my invoices, and calculate the family income and expenses. Office is too expensive for just that

Have you considered using Pages for your invoices? I'm surprised that Pages 2 didn't come with Invoice templates. The new calculating charts feature makes it quite possible.

Food for thought...

kiwi-in-uk
Jul 13, 2006, 07:58 PM
Have you considered using Pages for your invoices? I'm surprised that Pages 2 didn't come with Invoice templates. The new calculating charts feature makes it quite possible.

Food for thought...
It comes with one invoice template that uses a "numbers" table for simple line item extension, tax, and totals.

Snowy_River
Jul 13, 2006, 08:36 PM
It comes with one invoice template that uses a "numbers" table for simple line item extension, tax, and totals.

Why so it does! I missed it because it was with the "Stationary" templates, not the "Business" templates. Needs a bit of reorganization, if you ask me...


Done, now Invoice appears in Business. And I also got rid of the other language localization files, as I have no use for them and I can always get them back using the install disk, thereby reducing Pages' disk footprint by about 500MB :)

JFreak
Jul 14, 2006, 12:50 AM
Why not make some kind of a mix between a database and excel. As you know a lot of people - me included - use excel as a kind of database.

Excel _IS_ a database. It's only rather limited and has simple front-end to it. But you're onto something here, and Apple is probably doing something like that. Why release Excel-copy and Accel-copy when you can mix them and create something new? ;) I'm waiting, and if they nail it, I'm buying.

Snowy_River
Jul 16, 2006, 11:10 AM
Excel _IS_ a database. It's only rather limited and has simple front-end to it. But you're onto something here, and Apple is probably doing something like that. Why release Excel-copy and Accel-copy when you can mix them and create something new? ;) I'm waiting, and if they nail it, I'm buying.

I'd say that's a little bit of an over simplification. Excel may be a database, but its front-end is specifically designed to be used in the way that a spreadsheet is used. Now, perhaps in the same vein as Pages having a "Layout" starting point and a "word processing" starting point, Charts could have a "spreadsheet" starting point and a "database" starting point. In both cases, the same underpinning would provide the muscle to the different interfaces, and the interfaces would be exchangeable.

I'm just thinking that, while Filemaker Pro may be able to do more than Excel, Excel's dedicated spreadsheet interface simplifies being able to use it for those purposes. Perhaps Filemaker Pro could be a contender with Excel if it offered a real spreadsheet interface as an option. (If Filemaker Pro has improved their Table view so it works better as a spreadsheet and I'm speaking through my hat, please forgive me, as I'm still working with the first version of FMP that went OS X native.)

So, again, I guess I'm reiterating what some others have said that perhaps a "Filemaker Lite" would be a good thing to have, but put a really good spreadsheet front-end on it, and you'd have a winner.